Choosing a backerboards for your shower Cement board versus Foam boards
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- čas přidán 16. 02. 2018
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Cement backer boards have been a popular choice for showers for a very long time, and are probably still the most common type of board installed in a shower stall or tub area. But are they the right choice or even the best choice? Should they be installed in a wet area without additional steps to ensure a watertight surface for the shower? Are foam boards like Schluter Kerdi-Board, or Wedi or some other foam board a better more modern solution to use?Shower stalls are probably the wettest area in a home, the right products and installation methods have to be used to ensure that water does not leak from the shower into wall cavities, or through the floor or anywhere else. This is a problem that occurs way too often and there is no reason why it should happen if the correct materials are used in conjunction with proper methods and standards. In this video I look at several types of backer boards and how they handel water penetrating into the board, how waterproof they are. This is a simple test, unscientific, but I think it does demonstrate the importance of proper material selection and the advancements in the industry, also that modern materials like waterproof foam boards might be a better choice.
All tile installed by Sal DiBlasi, Elite-tile Company, in the Boston North Shore area. This video contains affiliate links, which means I will receive a small commission if you click on the product link.
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Sal, thank you for taking your time to demonstrate how the different boards react with water. There were comments which seemed to lean toward the negative direction pertaining to not using other materials in this demonstration. Yes, there are other types (or brands) available. But your intention was not about testing all of the available brands on the market. You provided a simple and fair demonstration, which is what you wanted to do. And you got the point across.
Once again, thank you for the video you produced. There are many people who appreciate the demonstration. That, for sure, includes myself. Good work. Aloha! K Inouye Honolulu, Hawaii
Thanks, correct,trying to show how different types handle water.
Just wanted to say thank you for making videos like this. I have seen the problems that poor materials and improper installs cause. I try to use the best methods and materials in the jobs I do.
Have not had anyone complain about costs when the benefits are explained.
Knowledge will set you free. 😊
I’m an experienced tile setter and I found this helpful and informative, thank you.
You should do one on the difference between grout, unsealed, sealed, epoxy, and maybe cheap thin set versus modified.
I have already done some of those videos
Nice!!
I never realized that cement board was a sponge. . I have been using Redgard over it though . I only do my own work but these vids are great . I was a union carpenter for 30 plus years and watching these vids l can spot a hacker . You are a true journeyman of the highest order .
There is always something to learn, and that goes for everyone including me.
300 pounds of tile on the foam board🤔 yes it’s very easy and simple to use, I did three showers with foam board they all needed to be replaced in less than five years, if you know how to waterproof A cement board then you don’t have to worry about anything for the next 20 years🤷♂️ that’s just my experience😊
YOU did 3 showers and they all needed to be replaced in 5 years? Sounds like you did something wrong as just about every installer from CZcams to real world are going with some form of foam board with no signs of slowing down.
Thanks for the video. Learned a lot. I did my upstairs bath with wonderboard and taped seams with mortar etc, but didnt apply waterproofing, now I'm doing my ensuite on the other side of the wall 4 years later so the wonderboard is exposed. And there is zero sign of any moisture on any side if the shower. And it gets used 3 times a day minimum. Must've done my tile right.. or maybe water doesn't go thru tiles as much as people think. Regardless this time I'm going to use a modern foam board.
You do great work sir! Nice demonstration! Thanks!
With the foam board shortages I’m using all hardi with kerdi membrane right now. It’s just easy to keep my business running smoothly that way and to know I’m still installing a Schluter shower. I’m eager for the kerdi board to come back though.
the day I started using goboard with sealant never went back to schluter or other stuff, makes my job faster and assured it would not fail
Have you used go board? I am looking to use it for ease and the money saved helps! I would like to know which of the directions I should follow for shower walls, they give two options. The caulk sealant seems like less work and easier for someone new to this. I just want to do this the best way so we don’t have future mold/mildew issues or us having to redo it within a short period of time. Hopefully this makes sense. Thanks for your videos and time!
Hey Sal... I'm doing thin brick in front of my house what board do you suggest me using.. I will be screwing it into the wood structure of the house.
Foam boards are so easy and nice to work with, just finished using the USG board in my shower. Since they make exterior sheathing for commercial buildings they seem credible to me.
USG is very credible. Durock is old school for shower tile backers. They also make Sheetrock products.
If the lighter boards were in any stores around here i would have used them. I used wonderboard. I did my pan today,Lord you make that look easy. That was by far,the hardest part of the build so far.
Everything looks easy when you watch a trained hand do it.
Best video ever. So glad you did this because I’m gonna share this and advise my contractor about this material.
Sal,
What would you recommend for full 2cm marble shower walls, bench, and possibly ceiling?
I’ve looked everywhere and can’t find anyone that says the modern systems (wedi, schluter, ect) are good for that much weight.
Great video. To think you have some folks in CZcams saying Hardie is water proof. Hardie, with redguard over it. These other obtions are just too expensive. Done right the ols school method will last you 100 years. Thank you Sal.
In reality, when it is all said and done the foam boards end up at about the same cost when the whole shower install is taken into account.
Sal, I went with cement board on my install because they cost less than the foam. They feel more robust and substantial than foam. The solid membrane I use costs far less than the liquid membrane used to seal seams on the foam boards. The cement board doesn't need any primer or mastic (glue mortar) to bond with tiles, cement board ready to go with cheap classic tile mortar. The only special screws needed for cement board are corrosion resistant screws, which is entirely acceptable and intuitive, but no special gasket screws are needed. Cement board has an acceptable performance reputation spanning many years and it also works great on the floor which requires compressive weight bearing and impact tolerance. Foam sounds it will just deteriorate over time in that environment. In conclusion, solid membranes are sufficiently waterproof to protect the vulnerable wood, but they lack sufficient structural integrity on their own: Nobody builds swimming pools out of foam. It just came down to cost/benefit with me. If the foam system was more cost effective than cement board, then I would have gone with the foam, but I'm not losing any sleep thinking about my decision.
did you waterproof the cement board with a membrane or paint/roll on liquid waterproofing? redgard, hydro ban, aqua defense?
Hello Sal, quick question about the usg foam board. If I’m building a shower with a traditional dry pack shower bed, do I treat the foam board as if it were Durock? In other words; do I still hang it about 1/4 inch off of the shower floor or do I need to seal the changes in plane?
You can put it in the mud.
Me eather.. So I end up using this commercial spray foam and it sealed it up real nice.. This Spring I'm going to pull the vinyl siding off and Install plywood in tyvek .. My whole house was molded BC of them not installing something there to Keep the cold from hitting the hot. I wanna install all laticrete products back in this bathroom do think I could speak with you about that?? Thanks sal..
Those pouring skills!
I’m using Hardiebacker on the shower walls, and plan to use hydroban laticrete waterproofing membrane on walls. Mortar bed with Flo FX bonding flange. What is the advantage of Schluter Kerdi fabric membrane over hydroban fluid applied waterproofing membrane, if any? Am I asking for trouble with not using the fabric on the floor? Thanks!
Our house was built in 1984 and the builder had put cement straight over wire mesh stapled onto drywall, then installed tile over that. During removal of the tub, the staples were found rusted, as were some of the nails holding the drywall to the studs. The worst issues were in the corners, where there were cracks in the grout and cement (no silicone sealant present.) Not surprisingly, water had gotten in there and run down behind the cement, causing some rot on the studs. So, stating the obvious, regardless of type, use waterproof wallboard and tape or sealant on the seams!
Almost 40 years, that installer from 1984 should be proud
I’m putting in a steel tub 30x60 on open studs16” centers. It’s a left hand tub. There is no end wall at end of tub.What is the the most cost effective way to go? The rest of this small bathroom has the green board drywall .Just want to do it right. Any advice would be most welcome .
@Sal DiBlasi, you put a waterproofing on the concrete boards, do you still put waterproofing on the other boards?
Sal, what are you thoughts on using moisture resistant drywall (regular blue board) covered with 2 layers of liquid applied hydroban in a shower? Technically it appears that Laticrete allows it. Would this system be considered subpar in your opinion?
I would never consider it or a wet area, so many better options available. Cost is always a concern, but that concern should not drive a decision to compromise an install, save on something less critical.
I live in an old house with tongue and groove subfloor. I want to install heated floor systems and tile 1" hex tile on floor. Can I use foam backer board then install heat, then self leveler? Or what would you suggest?? Thanks
Can any of these be used as a replacement for dryway for areas that flood? I need to be able to tape, mud and paint it.
thank you for this. What is your opinion of the GoBoard? I have a contractor that wanted to use that in my shower stall.
Go Board is a good product.
Great test. Foam boards are so nice to work with.
For sure.
Sealed system for the win!!!!
Would the Wedi drop the tiles if the surface got too wet?
Do u have to waterproof the screw holes for foam boards and or how are they attached to wall. I’ve used hardie and redgaird but going to be doing my own shower and liking the lighter and easier to move product
Yes, depending on the system you use there is a recommended method.
Sal I'm Remodelings my 2nd bathroom now in last night when I took down the Framing for the tub (garden tub) and removed tub I saw there has been some water damage to the floor some is black some is white.. None of it has started to rot through the plywood. But my whole question is should I remove it and just go back with some tongue and groove? Or should I Make sure it's completely dry and stain it and go over it? Bc I have to HACE my floor at 1 1/8 Thick... Thanks boss...
Without knowing specifics, it is hard to say, but if the framing and structure is not compromised, and you can remove all traces of mold, then I don't see why you would need to replace it.
Hi Sal I had a question. With the Kerdi I understand it is a foam , does that have any long term effect like the grout cracks prematurely or tiles cracked? Also how do you feel about KBRS pans or products on a whole
Foam boards are very stable, no concern about cracking and longevity. Have not used the KBRS pans, so I can't comment.
Great video and information. Thank you
Do I have to put some type of mold resistant or air barrier with the "modern" system,if 2 of my shower walls are exterior walls? I live in Florida and it rains quite a bit. Is a block house single storie.
Depends on the system you are using, not a straightforward answer.
Excellent demo!!
Sal, I am going to lay a Versailles pattern in chiseled edge travertine, can I add a grout line or will that mess up the pattern? Do they have to be butt up tile to tile? I was hoping to use the Perfect Level Master system from you with 1/32 grout lines, thanks :)
You never butt tile together, layout the pattern dry on the floor and see what the groutline works out to be, do a few repetitions of the pattern to make sure it works. If the tile is modular, there will be a consistent grout line between all the tiles.
I'm tiling around a tub with jets.....I'm using the red guard but which board would be better ??? I'm thinking about the best board to cushion the vibration on the surrounding walls ? Thanks !!
As far as I am concerned foam boards are much better, you never sit the board directly on the tub, leave a gap and apply an approved sealant between board and tub.
As long as you protect the wood behind the cement board, wouldn't the morter need its moisture to absorb somewhere and wouldn't it form a better bond with cement backer? Does quality thinset or morter form a better bond with the cement backer? Like I said as long as it's waterproofed behind the board what forms better bonds and what dries faster and does that matter??
Witch one is fire rated? And are you required as we are in my area to have EVERYTHING, fire rates?
Hi, thanks for the video. Are you familiar with goboard? It's also a foam based waterproof board. I'm reading good reviews on them. If you know goboard, what's your opinion on the product? For shower floor and wall.
I have personally not used it, but hear good things about it.
even today your video was very valuable. Thank You
I wonder which modern board would be faster?
Thanks, Sal, it is really a great video. What is the price differences between those foam board, Wedi, Kerdi, USG, or GoBoard? Which one has the biggest market share?
Wedi is the highest priced, Go board the cheapest, USG is no longer made, Hydro Ban Board Has the most installation options, Schluter is probably the biggest selling.
I used a scrap sheet of Hardie to practice plastering on, and when plastering you need to water the surface and the plaster periodically. Anyway, though it was hot out, my one sheet of 1/2" Hardie took almost a whole 1.5L garden sprayer into the board without (as far as I know) bleeding through the other side. I also used about half or more of a sprayer load when plastering, too, some obviously going into the substrate. I still chose Wonderboard for my own bathroom, but wow those Hardie boards absorb a ton of water. I also had that scrap sheet sitting outside exposed a full 3 years without delamination/any problems.
Wet Hardiboard will cause rot in adjacent framing lumber and fasteners. The high paper fiber content holds water like a sponge if not given a waterproof layer. It comes down to the house and climate dictating the drying potential. SOCAL? No prob! Seattle? Probs...
When you tried the Kerdi board. You don't want to touch Durock anymore. I saw something at home Depot recently calls Alino looks like a copy of shluther stuff but less expensive. I'm curious about this. Did you try it?
Have not seen it, however there are several foam boards available now from different companies.
Sal, thank you so much for doing all these videos! As a homeowner who's never tiled before, I've learned a ton!
I'm about to tile the walls around my alcove tub with 2x6 white glass tiles. Given the material and color, do you recommend one of the foam boards over the others? I was originally going with HardieBacker, but with Redgard applied, I'm worried that the red color would bleed through the adhesive and show in the tile.
First you need to watch this, czcams.com/video/Q-MCdbgjSYs/video.html second you have picked one of the most dicalt products to install. As far as the redgard goes, i have never used it, but it should be ok if it is left to dry properly before you install your tile. I have usd Mapei Aquadefense and laticrete Hydroban many times so if in doubt switch to one of those. If you decide on a foam board, I would recommend Hydroban board or USG foam board only because the allow the use of modified thinset, Kerdi board does not unless it is their own modified SchluterSet which is not as of yet recommended for glass tile. thinset.
Redgard dries to a rubbery consistency so it won't run or bleed anywhere. I love it. Hope this helps.
@@rjperalta9146 It sounds like you have experience with sealing these shower wall coverings. May I ask, after I install and seal whichever foam board I end up using, is it essential that I cover it with tiles, or a shower surround or some other sheet material? Or can I, after sealing the foam board entirely with Red Guard and Red Guard seam tape, simply apply a painted on product right on top of the Red Guard, as my finished surface?
Whatever I do, I don't want to cut corners and regret it later - if I must tile or install a shower surround over the foam board I will, but I'd really like to keep it simple (this will be a shower in a camper -plain and basic is fine, as long as it's waterproof.)
I'm unsure of the basic requirements, and my "decorative" options for what goes on top of the foam board. I appreciate anything you care to share. And thank you very much for reading this far!.
@@sheri4673 actually I did just that in my own home. An entire wall is mold resistant and I painted it with Redgard. One portion of the wall is the shower wall with tile, the other is behind the toilet and painted over with some latex paint.
The redgard dries like rubber so it's just like painting over latex paint.
@@rjperalta9146 Thank you very much for your reply! There are so many decisions to be made and every one of them costs more money!
I appreciate hearing how you finished off the bathroom. May I ask, did you put Red Guard on your wall board behind the shower tiles? Or is that not necessary? If I'm going to spend a small fortune on a waterproof wall board, is it still necessary to treat it with Red Gaurd before covering it ith the final wall covering such as tile or sheets of tile surround?
Thank you again!
When using washers on the foam boards do you have to seal over the washers with tape and water proof paste?
Depends on the system, Schluter you need to cover with a patch of Kerdi band, other systems also include liquid applied waterproofing or sealant as an option.
i have showers going on 10 years with permabase and a good vapor barrier behind it with no problems.... most of my work is in apartments and landlords do not wanna spend more to get the good stuff.
As long as it is done correctly, it will last. The good stuff just makes it faster, easier, less mess amd better.
Sal, are you able to do a video on pricing of each of the backer board. Thanks
Hi, wanted to know your opinion about goboard, the other products are way more expensive, is there any reason why I should not use goboard?
Thank you
Go Board is a good product, go for it.
Have you ever used Permabase Foam Boards? It's almost impossible to get Hydro Ban Boards or Schlueter Kerdi Boards at this time, but Permabase is readily available. If you have used Permabase, may I ask your opinion as to usability and durability, please?
Never used it
Where do I buy the Kerri board ? Can you please tell me?
I decided to test both Wonderboard and Durock using this method. Durock worked exactly like it did in this video, 5 minutes and water bled to the other side onto the countertop. Wonderboard, however, took basically a full 25 minutes or so before it absorbed the water, and even then it didn't go to the other side, just sponged it in. Wonderboard's way easier to cut and stiffer and in general nicer to work with than Durock, but there's a really big difference between the two for water resistance as well. Still obviously use waterproofing, but I'd feel a lot more comfortable using Wonderboard with plastic behind it than Durock.
A cement board is a cement board, the final outcome will always be the same.
I kinda disagree, based on my own test done. I think the difference is Wonderboard uses more perlite/vermiculite aggregate, which retains water easier. Obviously, you should not install them without plastic or waterproofer in wet areas, but I'd feel way more comfortable using Wonderboard vs Durock for basically any application now that I tested both, especially if you did not have money for a surface waterproofer. To me saying "cement board is cement board" is like saying "thinset is thinset, grout is grout" it's true, but one might be light years better than the other.
When I say Cement Board is Cement Board I mean they are the same type of material, I have used many different brands, and they are all water safe, how they are installed makes all the difference, but they are now superseded by muh better materials and systems. Would you want a carburetor in a new car or fuel injection, they do the same thing, but in radically different ways, same goes for cement board and Foam boards.
If you're a relatively broke DIYer like myself, cement boards are kinda the only reasonable option, though. For a tub surround, 4 sheets of CBU is $40, that's under the price of one sheet of Kerdi board, and pretty near the price of most of the competitors. Looking back I'd have loved to have used Kerdi, as carrying giant cement boards up stairs is a pain, and they're heavy/etc. If I ever end up doing this stuff professionally, perhaps I'd give the foam boards a shot, as time is money and all that. In this regard foam boards shouldn't cost as much as they do, as the same material as an insulation board is about the same price as cement board or less, I guess it's mainly due to the patents/etc. Going with the fuel injection thing, that was probably what caused EFI to be such a premium on cars for a long time, as stuff had to be licensed out from Bosch, etc, as at the end of carb days almost assuredly in material/parts costs carbs were costing more with the messes of vacuum lines and solenoids, etc.
Thank you so much for this video!
Glad it was helpful!
Hi, I am going to install goboard in my shower. I have heard that you don't have to waterproof above the shower head, so I plan to switch to fiberock a few inches above the showerhead. But, my shower is not very open. It is 9' tall, and fully framed in... the only opening is the 27x80" entrance, which will have a 27x68" frameless glass door. It is a 48x48" space if that matters. I plan to tile the ceiling. Do you recommend that I seal all the fiberock seams and fasteners with cementboard tape and Redguard? If so, would I have to use thinset to embed the tape in, or just stick the tape to the fiberock and paint Redguard on it? I do plan to follow mfr instructions on using sealant to waterproof the goboard seams and fasteners. Thank you!!
I would not even consider using Fiberock for anything these days.
Ok, thanks for that advice! So, let's say that I use Denshield, or maybe Durock cbu, above the showerhead. Would you recommend that I use cementboard tape and Redguard to waterproof it (since my shower is so closed in)? Also, can I just stick the tape to the board surface before Redguarding, or do I have to embed it in thinset? Thank you for your time!
My lowes does not carry any of the modern items. What is the best way to go about getting them
Go to a tile dealer, shopping at a box store for tile stuff is a mistake anyway.
Hi Sal, thank you for sharing your video. How about fire resistance? My guess is the foam boards would produce toxic smoke in the event of fire.
This was a perfect example. As a homeowner with a brand new steam shower my ex contractor now used then waterproof materials i.e. cement board, green board. Whatever board just not waterproof board. And now we’re here with my tile cracking and my ceiling never got tiled so it looks just like drywall not even high gloss or semi gloss paint on the ceiling I’m like WTF so after looking at this video I’m going to share this with my current contractor to hopefully share some knowledge
A steam shower has to be installed with a waterproof backer board that meets a perm rating of .5, if it is not constructed properly vapor will penetrate into the wall cavities and create huge problems. Here is a playlist of a steam shower build, start to finish czcams.com/play/PLiB6hq5lQ3h08ciGAQT9DZp5z0znmUWYe.html Same videos combined into one long video czcams.com/video/T_C1uBeYWeY/video.html and here is a very condensed version for a quick look at how it is done czcams.com/video/muKrg9sVx6I/video.html
Hi Sal DiBlasi could you make an compassion for the wall water proofing methods below ?or which way doing is wrong , what is the different and which way will be last longer .
1)Method 1
a.Double layer of # 15 Ibs asphalt paper against the studs.
b.Mold tough green drywall board .
c.Regular drywall screws
d.Schluter Kerdi Waterproofing Membrane
e. unmodified thinset
VS
2)Method 2
a.Double layer of # 15 Ibs asphalt paper against the studs.
b.James Hardie backer 500 1/2”
c.Serrated Head Star Drive Cement Board Screws
d.Fiber glass seam tape
e.2 coats red Guards or any other kind of liquor water proof management
VS
3)Method 3
a.Non Membrane against the stud .
b.Kerdi board
c.Washer and screws
d.kerdi band with unmodified thin set
Great, thanks this really helped.
Glad it helped!
My shower was done all wrong (by today's standards) but came out alright. My house was built in 1986. I am the second owner. The only shower that ever got used in my house is a 3' by 3' shower in the master bath area. It has no problems even though the builder glued (mastic not thinset) the tile straight to standard everyday drywall. There is no water-proofing of any kind other than the tile and grout. There is no vapor barrier on the back side of the tiled drywall. The shower has a "plastic" shower pan and I get my huge body down there where the pan meets the tile and I make sure that the caulk is in good shape. I think that is the #1 thing to take care of, that joint where the pan meets the tile and drywall. After a lot of years of use, I am sure that the porosity of the grout (at the bottom of the walls) has diminished because of soaps and conditioners and other stuff getting in the pores of the grout. I will eventually replace this shower because it is so small, but I think highly of it, because it was done so poorly, but has lasted so long.
I agree. I've seen tile over ordinary drywall, and seen it last decades. The key, as you say here, is to inspect and repair the caulk every year, and to clean and re-seal the grout every few years. But of course few do this, and the shower fails. So we need to use construction methods that are homeowner-proof.
Sal, can I mount a hinged, frameless shower door to a tiled wall with kerdi board backing. Or, would you recommend a cement board? Thank you, Tony
You need to plan for the door, even with cement board. make sure there is blocking behind your board to have something solid to attach screws to. Talk to your glass guy, see what he requires for support. Usually a double stud or solid blocking as I mentioned.
Thank you, Sal.
What kind of structural integrity do the foam-core boards have? If a person slips in the shower and braces themselves against the wall between the studs (especially 24" OC), will the foam boards resist the force? Will they give way? Will they flex so the tile or grout cracks?
First off the studs should not be 24" OC, second the board is much stronger than you think and as good or better than sheetrock or Backer board.
@@SalDiBlasi: Totally agree that the studs *shouldn't* be 24" OC, but they too often are. Surprised at the strength/ rigidity you mentioned. I'll have to look into that. Thanks.
Thank you Sal!
You bet!
how about the diamondback gypsum board? is that any good? or have you used it at all?
Diamond back is like Denshiled, as far as I am concerned gypsum products should never be used in a wet area, no matter what they say they do to it. Just my opinion for what it is worth.
thanks
Great video Sal
Very informative video. Question for you: I know you aren't a fan of DensShield in wet areas. I agree with that. But what about for a humid area that has no direct contact with water? I'm converting my coat closet into a Spanish cedar lined cigar humidor. My sense is that DensShield (behind the Spanish cedar) would actually be the preferred substrate in this case, since it has the moisture-repellent and mildew/mold resistant fibreglass finish. Remember also that the Spanish cedar lining will be absorbing most of the humidity, as well.
You might have a good point, but not my area of expertise.
I used Redguard on cement board in my DiY due to cost considerations.
That aside, after your demo i would avoid wedi because over time XPS foam will become water logged. If you're paying the premium already why take the chance?
Sorry, completly wrong, foam is the way to go. Liquid applied waterproofing membrane does not compare regarding perm rating, must be applied to the correct mil depth, and correct number of coats to achieve the values indicated on the label. Most times that means if you rolled it on or painted it on, you did not get the depth required to achieve recommended values. More coats does not solve the problem, they are designed to work specific values.
I didn't say my application was better, just that it was what my cheap self used.
The foam board is all sorts better.
Sound proofing, thermal, easy install ect. But xps foam absolutely will take on water over time so i would be looking at Kerdi or any product to the right of it.
I helped demo 5 semi loads of saturated 6 inch xps from a hospital roof; if wedi let's water at the foam it is not a product i would use.
Hello Sal. In the past what helps you decide which substrate to use in the wet area? Clients budget? Architect? Building Code? If the kerdi is superior why did you use anything else? I have waited for a video that is relevant to ask this question.
It has been years now that I no longer do vinyl liners, just sealed systems. In the past I gave it as an option, now I no longer do, it is either a modern sealed system or they will have to find another installer. It is not just me, I know a ton of installers that do the same.
Sal DiBlasi thank you for the reply. I only install Kerdi system in wet areas myself. A superior product is worth the extra cost. Do you still use Cement board on sub-floors? Or is it Ditra only?
Ditra or some other uncoupling membrane.
I've always used 1/2" concrete board with 15# felt behind it and then a healthy coat of redguard waterproofing on the board. I like redundancy which is why I use the felt. I was also skeptical of new products. In recent years though I've used the kerdi membrane, wedi, ditra and schluter uncoupling and red guard uncoupling membrane.
So far I find the wedi to be to expensive for my customers to stomach as well as the kerdi board. Most are ok paying for the membrane and uncoupling mats. I love the premade curbs because they are always a time burner to get just right. I also really liked the wedi shower pan but with the old out of shape homes around here its hard to find a floor that doesn't need to be re leveled for them so I've adopted the kerdi drain/ membrane system over a mold proof drywall.
It took a massive leap for me to put drywall anywhere near a shower!!! but the tile supplier I used managed to convince me as kerdi actually warranties it which means it works if you do it right.
Thanks for another great video Sal.
It seems that you are doing your best to give your customers a great product, one thing I would do different is not use the tar paper behind the cement board if you apply a waterproofing membrane, it is one or the other, not both. Although liquid applied waterproofing membranes are "waterproof" they are not vapor proof, so you don't want to trap it between the tar paper and the surface waterproofing. Sheet membranes and Foam Boards have a much higher pem rating than liquid applied waterproofing membranes.
At this point I have pretty much ruled cement board out of my showers. The membranes are cost and labor effective enough to still remain competitive without giving my customers the choice between the two. I've become a great fan of Schluter products.
I hope you have attended one of their workshops, if not, you should plan to do so, it is worth every minute of your time, and they are free.
I have not to date but will if one manages to find us locally. I've talked with a rep though and thoroughly educated myself on the procedures before I tried my first time. Around 10 years and that client hasn't had an anything but positive things to say to this day. I've never had a failure with concrete board either but like you said...the newer stuff is superior, and anything that minimizes water setting will reduce mold and soap scum growth.
Passion for Woodworking....most mold and scum in a shower is there because the owner doesn't clean their shower on a regular maintenance schedule. Also people don't apply sealer
Sal, I'm getting ready to install a new tiled floor in my mudroom with a washer/dryer. The is no floor drain. What is the best backer board in this room w. Cement slab? I was considering schluter ditra duo TB. Jeff
If you are going to heat the floor, then Ditra Duo is the best choice, if you are not, then regular ditra or some other uncoupling membrane is what you need. Cement backer boards are not used on concrete floors.
Sal DiBlasi , yeah when I removed the old slate tile, they troweled a mortar mix between the slab and Hardee backer. I'm surprised it held so well.
هل يوجد لديكم عمل
Why not just set on the concrete?
Enraged Berger ...because I need heat on the floor. Adding an uncoupling membrane makes life alot easier
Sal thanks for your videos. I'm a first time diy'er and have watched countless videos as I work on my project. I am finishing up a bath tub surround and a shower. I considered using the Kerdi or other foam board but the cost was too much for me to take on. I used hardie board half inch on the walls and red guard to waterproof them. If the cost wasn't such a drastic difference I would have preferred the Kerdi
For a diyer that can make sense, but for a professional installer, when you add up all the costs from start to finish, it cost ends up being a wash. If you just look at the cost of materials, foam boards seem more expensive, but when you add in all the the surrounding costs, it makes a lot of sense to use a sealed system.
@@SalDiBlasi What a great video, it was exactly the information I needed. I am uncertain about one thing you said, you mentioned that the Kerdi board requires a "wash" over it? I'm not sure if I heard you correctly.
Does that mean something like a Red Guard sealant must be rolled over the entire surface of the Kerdi Board?
Can you help me further? If I use The Kerdi, or Hyrdoban Board or the USG Foam Board, what must I put over it after sealing the seams?
Is it necessary to use tile, or a tub surround, or other sheet covering? Or is there a painted on finish that I can use directly over these foam boards that would be truly waterproof? I'm building a van camper and want to keep the weight and the labor and cost at a minimum.
However, I definitely don't want to be cheap and create problems with moisture or rot later on. I want to do this correctly.
If it is possible, I'd like to paint some artwork on the walls of the shower perhaps using marine paint to add a few strokes of color. But I need to know that I've first sealed the walls properly before I worry about decor.
Anything you can recommend would be welcome. And thank you again for sharing your expertise!
@@sheri4673 he ment a screw and washer NoT wash You DON’T need redguard over Kerdi board . other foam board olnly use screws
@@alf.m5961 Thank you very much! I am actually beginning the shower build this week!
@@alf.m5961 Thank you for the clarification (my first comment didn't seem to post) I'm beginning my shower build this week. Just checked price on Kerdi board, it's back to the drawing board for me, too expensive for my budget!
Thanks!!
I know this video is older, but if cement board is that absorbent with water and required membrane behind or in front of it anyway, would it be acceptable to use a Greenboard(moisture/mold resistent sheetrock) with a liquid membrane applied on top between it and the tile? Something like Aquadefense or Redgard. I see some pretty massive differing opinions. I really hate working with cement board and there aren't great options for foam board locally.
Thanks!
Ni, gypsum products are not recommended for wet areas.
@Sal DiBlasi hi Sal! I've been watching your videos for a long time now and was wondering if the shluter panel on the ceiling is strong enough for 12x24 tiles. Thank so much.
Good stuff Sal👍
Thanks 👍
When installing a wetroom does the foam board need to be installed all the way up to the ceiling, my contractor is saying it's not required only needs to be up to shower head. He wants to use an alternative then waterproof. Your thoughts.
Waterproofing should be at least up to the shower head as he said, but all the way to the ceiling is better. It does however depend on the type of shower, a steam shower for example must be completely water and vapor tight, including the ceiling. I always go to the ceiling.
@@SalDiBlasi Thank you for your quick response. I've insisted it should be done up to the ceiling.
@@shirleychristopher5674 good for you, it is your house after all
cool video! i've been watching a lot of your videos, i'm having a house build and vlogging the build on my channel, i'm learning a ton :)
Been using Hardiboard with Redguard for my shower walls. I'm limited to whatever the two big0box stores have in stock. I like the other stuff shown here, but I'd have to go to a specialty store for it.
I never shop at the box stores for my supplies.
That process doesn't leak either. 45 year contractor and I've done remodels with that process (some people have more money than sense) and absolutely no water penetration in that process. Your technique is solid. I mix in kerdi once in a while, depending on how cut up a shower is, benches, niches, etc.
What I've done for a couple decades now. Never had a problem
I like the waterproof function, but how strong are these foam boards compared to the traditional boards? I have visions of a hand or person going through the wall. They've gotta be somewhat weaker I'd imagine.
Yes, I'm wondering the same thing. These foam boards just don't look that strong to me.
I'm wondering that too. Maybe you need to put a Hardi or cement board behind the foam?
Foam boards are very strong. There’s plenty of demonstrations on this compared to cement board. People are just small minded and don’t like change
what about dens shield? it has a waterproof coating on the side thats to be tiled.
I am very familiar with Denshield, I stopped using it years ago and will never use it again. Infer from that what you will.
Good morning Sal, I'm thoroughly sold on the Kerdi System and products. I love using them! I wondered how tiles installed on Kerdi board could be removed. For instance how I could remove a tile installed over Kerdi board in a shower if say somehow the tile got chipped. Can it be removed without destroying the Kerdi board underneath? And if not, is there a way to replace the Kerdi board as well and still keep that area waterproof? I'm not sure how you could get the two in overhang in each direction of Kerdi band if you just cut the tile and kurti board out along the grout line. Thanks for all your Insight. keep up the great work!
Like any other waterproofing system, removing a tile always has the risk of damaging the board or waterproof membrane. The key is to go at it methodically and slow, however if it does get damaged it can be repaired without to much trouble. I have torn out whole shower bases that were done wrong with other systems and patched them back up with Kerdiboard and made them watertight. czcams.com/video/ZwzqUtC-Eag/video.html
Sal DiBlasi okay thanks😊👍🏼 for your feedback, if you ever get the opportunity, I'd love to see a video on it especially on top of Kerdi board.
Kerdi has a video on their channel how to remove chipped tile.
thanks Jon! I'll check it out
Sal, thanks for all the great videos! You have done some fantastic work. When my kids see me watching the phone they ask, are you watching Sal!? Lol. My questions 1. What about strength of say a form board when it comes to mounting a glass shower door? Or should I just put in wood backing behind? 2. IF I need to run foam OR cement board past the area to be tiled say to next closest stud BUT past area to be tiled, can I skip coat with drywall mud so as to make board smooth and paintable ( to match drywalled wall).?
Yes to all, you want backing behind the board for the screws of a shower door regardless, Durock or foam board, and yes you can finish the kerdi as you would drywall.
Thanks again! Where do find the time for all this !!
😊
I'm still doin Hardie and red guard. H/O's flip when they see the cost of Keri, IF I can find it in my area
I used to think that too but with the cost to put up cement board plus screws, thinset and mesh tape, wp, it evens out if you're charging correctly. Plus time comes into play. Think about taping seams even with rapid set it's never fully ready to paint same day. With cost of a helper it's kind of a no brainer. Adjust your prices
Randy Mathews agree cost is outrages! for foam boards for Keri read the warranty find print. Besides 1/2 hardie is way stronger. Try kicking a tile wall with hardie vs foam. Good luck!
I use hardi board red guard and a 40 mil pan liner and dry pack mortar bed I don’t think it takes long at all and super cheap . I can hang all the board and skim the seams and do the wet bed in a day then the next day u can walk on wet bed but it’s not cured so you waterproof the walls . Set up an air mover then set a ledger and tile the walls then after 3 days you can waterproof the floor and tile it and your bottom course of wall tile . Most of the time there’s other work in the bathroom as well
@@tzwc3571 your clients doing full contact sports in that shower!?🤣😎
The USG foam board you show here, id tgis the " USG Durock Ultralight Foam Tile Backboard" ???
What advantage does a cement board have over green drywall? Both would require a waterproofing product such as Redgard or Hydro Ban. But the green drywall is lighter and easier to work with. I had previously thought that the cement board would be a more substantial substrate for tiling, but it looks like that the light weight foam boards are considered to be perfectly adequate for tiling. So why isn't green drywall used in wet applications like showers?
Drywall is made of gypsum, it does not belong in a wet area unless it is covered with a sheet membrane. Manufacturers of Liquid applied waterproofing do not allow for drywall as a base in a wet area.
So do you like denshield now? You mentioned in a previous video that it wasn’t your favorite backboard.
I will probably never use it again, there are so many better options.
Sal DiBlasi Whoa. Thanks, I’ll stay away from it. Guess I’m using Durock again. Denshield is the only waterproof backer I can get around here.
Sal, the shower walls in my neighborhood are about 90 years old and use a mud base over metal lath. To my knowledge none of them are waterproofed and they all perform well after all this time. The mud is 1 to 1 1/4 inch thick and i'm sure it soaks up water but there is no damage to the structure, some of them look like they were installed last year. What do you think about this? Why do these mud walls work when cement board wouldn't?
When they did those walls that way, and they still do in some parts of the country, the first thing they did was put tar paper or some other vapour barrier on the studs, then they screeded the walls. The floor also has some kind of liner, could be copper, lead, hot mop, or something else. The tar paper is the thing that prevents the intrusion of moisture, and because houses were not very tight, it was enough. Back when all showers were constructed that way, all tile installers were highly skilled and was very labor intensive, old methods were used, tiles were wet set and skill was key. With the introduction of lighter materials like cement backer boards, dryset mortars, the thinset method and other advancements, the skill required to install tile became much less. It became possible for lesser skilled installers to do more, over the years the knowledge base of the installer was diluted, improper installations became more common. For many years now, with the advent of, tighter home construction, larger tiles, modern materials, the need for highly skilled installers is again a necessity. The combination of a shortage of skilled installers, the misconception that it is easy to install tile, and the abundance of untrained and poorly trained installers, has brought us to where we are in the industry today, where something like 80% of all showers are built incorrectly.
i can second that...i went to redo a shower in one of my rental units..tiles were still on solid but they were a 1950s mustard yellow...holy cow was that mud thick and the metal lath..job and a half
Every shower I've ever tore apart like that had some form of rot if not totally rotted out. But with that said, pretty much all were at least 40 years old or older so that is pretty good for the life of a shower. I even tore them out and found lead liners under the mud pan. I'm in NC and I haven't seen or herd of anyone doing those types of installations in the 22 years I've been doing tile work. I guess I'm from the advanced material generation. (thank God) It's bad enough having to tear that mess out. Lol
@@workingshlub8861 you could of had the tile reglazed to modern white or any color.
No difference in the structural support for the tile?
All designed for tile, just in case you didn't know, Cement board has no structural value, if that is what you were thinking.
Sal, I'm an experienced tile installer. I realize the foam based boards are better at water resistance but the adhesion qualities are seriously in question. If a product is that water resistant on the face, how can a water based tile mortar adhere substantially? I am a hardy backer man myself. So I like the product that is not waterproof on the face but waterproof core. How sturdy is it?
Thinset will stick to foam board like crazy, the fleece they have on the surface of the board is designed so as the crystals of the thinset grow during the hydration of the mortar, they will interlace with the fabric creating a tenacious bond. Just try ripping off a tile after the thinset is cured, not an easy task. Hardi on the other hand is not waterproof, it is not even water safe as they claim. It is a Fiber cement board and the Cellulose in the board will deteriorate over time if exposed to continuous moisture, I have seen it with my own eyes. Durock, Wonderboard and the like, which are true cement boards are water safe but they are not waterproof. I could elaborate more, but you get the point.
Is there a difference in bond strength between a cement board and the other backer boards?
All the boards are designed to receive tile bonded with thinset, so when installed properly the bond will be very good no matter which you use.
Durock cement backer claims 30% higher bond than paper fiber cement backer boards. I tend to agree, but it is not usually critical to the job if top quality thinset is used per instructions.
Can I screw Kerdi board onto studs as if it was plaster board and will it take the weight of a fully tiled wall? Thnx
TRhgat is what it is designed for, but you need to use washers with Kerdi board.
@@SalDiBlasiI'm thinking stainless steel washers might do the same thing, then seal over them. What do you reckon?
Here in upstate ny i cant get any modern board without spacial ordering
Nothing beats a good scratch and brown floated walls.
What about densShield?
Do I need to vapor barrier/waterproofing on a bathroom floor?
Depends
@@SalDiBlasi the flooring I tore up had a layer of tar paper a few layers down but, based on the water staining it wasn't providing much protection anyway.
OK THANK YOU SAL... I replaced all the sub floor and Framed in a lot better than what it was and I'm Finishing all of that up now.. My next Issue I discovered last night was the house has no plywood on the Exterior walls.. It has this Material that looks like cardboard but it's overlapping each lap and they have it staple to the studs.. Then it's vinyl siding and that's it... So what I'm trying to figure out is what's going to be the rite way to Keep air from coming in from outside and meeting my shower? What I came up with is installing R-MATTE PLUS3 S relation board in between my still its seal them up and then apply the laticrete board for my shower walls? Have You ever ran into this type of problem and if you like I can send you pictures.. I'm also going to record this and hopefully maybe someone as yourself or someone else making uses video to do a demonstration... Thanks
Never seen that, and I have seen a lot of odd stuff.
Is it gypsum sheathing? I have this in my house from the 1970s, it's essentially drywall and it was done for fireproofing. My house's problem was it had this, then plywood siding, but then later vinyl siding, so the wood is rotting out sandwiched between those materials.
Mapei Aqua Def is all I use, nice video
Used it many times, and have many videos with it, still I think a sealed system is much better.
Sal DiBlasi I agree, in my city it all depends on my clients if they want to spend the money. So this is the reason why I use a lot of Aqua Def. keep up the good work and thank you for being part of who taught me what I know about tile installation 👍
👍😊
Sal aside from ease of use, do you see any long term effects from using a cementaeous board with aqua defense? I know you trusted it for years, so you must have faith in it remaining waterproof. I get the other boards are better in most aspects, but do you ever doubt your durock/aqua installs will leak down the road.
If a traditional shower is built correctly, it is rock solid, however there is much more penetration into the system compared to a Sealed system. So I feel that the less the water can penetrate into a shower assembly, the better.
If you don’t properly seal your grout line regularly . You will have water intrusion. Sheet rock w sealant, Hardie, foam board etc . Once the thin set gets wet tiles will fall off no matter what kind of boards you use.
Thinset getting wet is not a problem as far as loss of bond, mastic yes it will, but not thinset mortar. Water will always get behind the tile over time whether you seal the grout or not, the function of a sealer is to make the pores smaller to protect from staining, not to make it waterproof.
Sal great video as always, i need to do my bathroom on a 5th floor condominium right now is a bathtub and i want to do a shower in your knowledge what is best to use for shower pan systems in long tern. Thanks for all of educational videos
Schluter, Wedi, Laticrete, USG all have sealed system showers, any one of them will work well for you. What i no longer do is vinyl pan liners with cement backer boards. Use a modern system installed properly. less weight, less dust and much easier to transport and carry.
Sal what system do you use i referring to the shower floor i am afraid of leaks to the floors Bellow my.
I usually use schluter as when I build a shower, but I have also used Laticrete, Wedi and others. Do a search on my channel, I have many videos detailing exactly how to install them.