The simple skill that Ryan Fortnine was 100% right about | MiniTip Monday
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- čas přidán 20. 05. 2024
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The simple details of riding technique can make a huge difference to how easy riding off-road is. Hand position is one of the complex, nuanced details that can be tricky to explain, tricky to learn and so often overlooked.
Turns out Ryan F9 and Chris Birch both have it nailed and it's worth putting the effort in to correct in your own riding. - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Name dropping for clicks, I see
Don't hate the player hate the game.
@@BrakeMagazine I do hate the game, sad that you have to play it
I don’t really think it’s that big of a deal 👋
Really not a big deal especially since he’s giving good advice
@@TheGuyWhoAsked72 The “good advice” came from Ryan, he’s just repeating it. He used Ryans name in the Headline for the thumbnail, therefore it’s all “marketing”
If you follow Fortnine, you would have already seen the video, I prefer original thoughts and ideas.
It's so heartening to see CZcamsrs sharing credit.
PS : I have been a subscriber of you & Ryanf9
I think it’s better that way right?
@@BrakeMagazine It must be the way forward for others to see
We have more videos coming along these lines
Love it
@@BrakeMagazine if nothing else its refreshing, in every hobby field there’s always advice and opinions contradicting each other so when multiple knowledgeable people say the same thing you know it’s gonna be correct.
Solid advice and it goes for all types of riding. Less rider inputs to the handle bars the better, you only make things worse wither it is 200mph or in deep sand. I try for a soft grip as much as I can, to fight rider fatigue, getting older now and my grip is less. Relaxed fingers and mostly pressing forward on the grips, as opposed to pulling. The key of standing is holding with legs/knees and using your core, keeping your balance with your handlebars leads to bad things man, bad things.
Absolutely!
Regarding the standing, I was told by an enduro champion from the 80s to not grip with the knees, but have your legs wide-ish and let the bike move beneath you. I guess that might be more advanced, as it requires more feeling and balance? What's your take @BrakeMagazine?
@@BlueberryFennec Depends on the terrain mainly
@@BlueberryFennec I find that technique works well when you're moving fairly straight at high speed over rough but firm terrain. Makes me think of the Finke desert race, you see riders there moving like that regularly.
@@BlueberryFennec I was also taught this. But by a trials champignon. He basically transfers all the techniques from trials to adventure riding. And it works for me. Legs straight but not fully locked. Leaning forwards elbows out and pushing the bars to the direction you want to go while counter leaning your body. Keeping the weight centered.
Fully agreed, I twist the control levers down on the handlebars so the controls are at my fingertips instead of requiring rotation of my arms to grab the levers. I do this on all bikes, street or dirt. This puts my hands more on top of the bars and resets my entire upper body into a more steady controlled stance. Another bonus is a noticeable lack of soreness and fatigue after long rides.
I was taught to hold the grips like I am holding a door knob to open a door. I've done it so long now, even when street riding on my Harley touring bike, that is how I hold the handlebar grips. The change I made recently was to not have the levers turned so far down so that I am putting more weight on the heel of my hand when using the brake and clutch. Thanks to Chris Birch for that one!
The Chris Birch lever level tip is so good. Makes for a much more secure feeling on the bars without having to death grip them. Helps prevent your hands from sliding forward off the bars (and under hand guards) as well.
It is great tip because helps to open the elbows to a stronger position
Track guys know you clamp your knees to keep pressure off of the hands and arms when braking.
I was already used to elbows out from mountain biking. When I started riding a dual sport, it just kind of carried over.
I'm new to riding ADV on dirt, and I agree. The elbow position, grip on the bars/levers and being fluid in balance over the bike is a direct translation of skills from MTB for me as well.
This is a piece of advice worth gold! I learned this from MotoTrek a year ago. Also ride standing is the best complement for hand positions. Good and clear video, you got a new subscriber.
Great tutorial mate. Love your work
Birchy's training vids were also where I first heard the elbows up, one of the many things that's made a big difference for me, to make it muscle memory, so I always default to there, I made myself do it riding everywhere (street, dirt, highways) just so I'd be so used to it that it's where my body always goes to.
Great way to solve the problem
Thanks something else I'll be practicing, I'm convinced the heels down video transformed my rut riding over the winter, ride safe 👍
Glad to hear it!
damn, forced one hand riding drill is genius idea, no sarcasm, i have to try it ; itll force you that mx style body movement forward and back when accelerating and breaking ;
It really will.
I dig that Leatt ADV kit, it looks sick 😎
I love it!
Great video, getting the elbows more out and wide has helped me a lot. I just need to work on keeping my grip relaxed in the technical stuff.
Another vid with Strom 💪🏻
Good video, but I've literally never had to think about this. I had trouble riding in rocks and sand once and my mates Dad said to me "sit over the back wheel, let the bars do what they want and steer with your weight" and that's pretty much all I needed to figure this out. I think people coming from cars get caught up in the bars being the steering, the bars are only part of the steering.
Very good simple explanation, nice.
Glad you liked it!
Great tips, wide and light
Just a note. The F9 ice cream and steering discussion points were from California Superbike School.
The Ice Cream analogy might be, but the idea is OLD. :)
@@BrakeMagazineno doubt. Countersteering existed when bicycles were invented. Keith did write, IMO, the best books on the subject. The school is in its 44th year! Ryan filmed those videos while attending the school at The Ridge in 2022.
Yes.. this is one of the first things that I drilled in my head. Elbows out and squeeze with the knees. I have my handlebars set up for a standing position. It’s not ideal for long distances but when I stand it really helps and it forces me to constantly look silly with elbows out when on a twisty road but hey, i have full control.
Side note, with elbows out while cruising I have noticed less head shake situations. When they do start to happen i pick them up and it stops. Maybe coincidence, but it works.
It does.
If you look at the side by side portion of the video of elbows in versus elbows out, you will notice how much more free the upper body moves to counter the motions of the bike with the elbows out.
Elbows in clearly traps the body upright, preventing you from using the mass of the upper body for counteracting unwanted motions of the bike, so you are always behind in inputs and the bike wanders all over the trail.
It absolutely does! Great observation!
As Chris Burch says, this applies in the “attack” position, which applies both in hard/technical off-roading or road racing. Indeed, road racer also adopt that elbow out position.
Cool video... starting to ride more and more off road on my DE. Its the same on a Mountain Bike.. We call it the attack position. Its easier to maneuver the bike beneath you and this means you have to centre your weight over the bike. Then automatically you change your hand position. I'm glad I was a mountain biker first ..then got into Moto.. Although the weight difference is massive, the basic principals of traction and bike position seem to be the same.
Great content as always.
They are very similar. The only thing I would say is you do see some MtB guys ride with a more tucked position, especially coming from bmx. Seems to work on the tiny bikes.
@@BrakeMagazine Yeh know what you mean. Mainly hardtailers.... Us full-bouncer riders would come a cropper at Bike Park Wales if we rode tucked🤣
czcams.com/video/4Od21Q4Ro_I/video.html
This GMBN Video is a good example
Best things I learned from MTB: heavy feet, light hands.
Well off to Punta Gallina tomorrow-the most northerly part of south America-there will be sand,a lot of sand!
Get those elbows out!! How are you doing man?
It’s official; Ryan FortNine has now surpassed Chuck Norris in the living legend category. Get his name outchyo mouf and dhow some respect.
I’m pretty I showed him a lot of respect 🤣
Is it useful to rotate the controls for off-road vs asphalt? That is, rotate them some 15-20 degrees such that the brake & clutch levers are lower than they would be for street? This would result in a compromise position, neither best for street nor best for dirt but best for riding both on a single day.
I love it
Best advice I was given was imagine your pushing someone away from you with both hands outstretched Infront of you.
Look at your hand position, they're tilted inwards... That's the position for holding handlebars and bench pressing.
I can't remember who said it, but I never forgot this description of a mid-level racer's crash: "He wrestled it all the way to the ground." A great reminder to keep it loose and don't fight it. Let the bike do what it needs to do.
Amen to that!
Thanks, good video and good to see others’ opinions. Do you have a suggestion to decide on handlebar width? I put a steering stabilizer on my adv bike but it raised the handlebars too much for my liking. Most aftermarket low-rise handlebars are narrower, which i guess is ok for MX bikes but not so sure it’s a good idea for big adv bikes. Do you have any insights?
Higher and wider generally grants more leverage.
nice video mate!
*subscribes*
I'll have to get out on some gravel back roads and work on this.
How good are those wind blocker gloves! Just got a pair here in Aus 👍🏻
The best!
Another advantage of a loose and completely, (puttem wherever you needem) grip, is fatigue reduction. Even long relaxed road rides can cause significant hand fatigue. Perhaps I have more fatigue on the road than dirt because I am a dirt rider first, as a child. So everything described here is naturally what I do. It’s the more mono position road grip position that I struggle with.
Same
Try riding with hands resting on top of the bars while on the street. It minimizes the fatigue.
Float like a butterfly😊
Rich Larsen IMHO is the best to explain good position ... and eventually variations depending of situations of course ;)
He's superb.
A big problem on lots of adv bikes is the shape of the bars. They have far too much sweep forcing the wrists into an uncomfortable position that means you drop your elbows down and in. Changing to trials bars makes a huge difference to comfort and control.
I noticed that as well, but sometimes you can rotate the bars to lessen the problem.
I was always taught "Chickens!"
You should be able to flap your elbows like chicken wings, and hold on to the handle bars like they are eggs you don't want to break. Works well for road riding too.
When people learn to relax and let the bike breath....everything is better. When it comes to bar input, and especially off road, less is better than more. Simple physics and experience tell us that bikes in motion want to stay upright naturally. It is us getting in the way of the bikes naturally tendency to auto correct that causes many issues for average riders. If you are not occasionally practicing riding hands free and letting the wheels track naturally, you are out of touch with your bike and not learning to trust it. I've seen some tubers making statements like you can't steer a bike with your feet or legs and this is hog wash. Is it the same as having bar inputs as well...of course not. But riding with two fingers or even better hands free while standing on a downhill trail is one of the best drills you can do to get you in better synch with your bike, Trusting your bike is a skill few take the time (or muster the courage) to develop, and it is one of the most important things a rider can do. Start with speed bumps and then gravel roads, then move onto bumpy or rocky trails. Your riding confidence will change overnight.
It's interesting to me. I grew up riding dirt and reading MXA in the late 80's, early 90's. I feel right at home in the dirt. I probably look and ride like a tool on the street though.
Me too 😂
I am certainly guilty of over using my grip on the bars as soon as my legs get tired. Or, my lower abs. I’m older and coming off an office bod, but getting back to shape. I can’t believe I am the only one who tries to ride with weak legs and core.
I'm 66, do desk work all day, and I was never a fan of exercise. I literally felt myself getting feeble on all-day rides. I dropped the bike in a gravel parking lot last year. I blamed wet stones and uneven ground - all true - but also true, if I'd been in shape it wouldn't have happened. I took up kettlebells 6 months ago and I already can feel how much better a rider I am - probably took off at least 5 years of letting myself get flabby. I control the bike better, and I'm not utterly exhausted at the end of a 350 mile day. Motivates me to keep after it.
Yeah, resistance training (weights) is one of the most important things for human longevity. I've been lifting since I was a teen, so I've never known what being weak has been like.
Might consider testosterone replacement therapy in the 50+ age range. Superior hormone balance helps a lot.
Your work is always appreciated.
⚡️BB57⚡️
In the last year I’ve really tried to keep my weight off the bars.
Thanks for taking the time and sharing great tips.👏🏽👏🏽
Gonna go practice some more now.
🏍️💨
Keep it up
What are them rear bags you're using please?
Mosko. I’ve just switched to Kriega though 👌
Í've had scariest headshakes while riding with that good neutral and relaxed posture, head over bars and elbows up like you showed at 3:25. It's like i dont have enough strength to control bars from that position or am i doing something wrong?
Really? What technique doesn’t give you headshake ? What bike?
Normally headshake if it’s technique related is made worse by being tucked in, or a geometry/suspension problem with the bike, or not unloading the front in bumps.
@@BrakeMagazine I got the same bike as you, 800 de. Stock tires, stock everything only little bit turned in comp and preload from factory settings. Headshakes happens sometimes when you riding +80km/h and hit potholes or something like that. It feels like everything is under control when sitting and also when standing with more aggressive attack position. It's that more relaxed and higher standing position and surprising potholes that gives me a troubles.
I think i'm decent offroad rider BUT this is my first two cylinder adv bike. Maybe i'm doing something wrong but It definitely feel like this is more prone to headshakes than any bike i've previously had.
It’s the forks. It’s pretty common on adv bikes with open suspension like the vstrom. Remove a little preload from the shock maybe.
Thanks, gonna try that. I guess one reason i got more headshakes with this bike is that i probably ride faster in many places than i did on my thumpers. This bike is really fun on fast flowing gravel roads and feel really stable... until it's not. Lol.
Have someone check your sag. Fork springs could be too soft.
Moto riders should try mountain biking for more balance and control drills. The arm position is already common knowledge for pumping, cornering, and work with the suspension.
Sorry, not catching exactly what your advice is aside from elbows high and wide. The grip part escaped me.
Turn your hands out and put the palms on top.
Thats why he's Ryan F9
New subscriber here. Question- why do you pause comments on videos that have great discussions going on? I really wanted to ask some people some questions in that itchy boots clutch vid.
The comments got paused on that video because a lot of them were out of hand and a bit dark.
While some discussions were great a lot of them were personal attacks on me and in Norally and opening the CZcams app to see comments like that wasn’t super fun ☺️
Jane Fonda speaks to you about riding skills. ;-)
Tell me more?
just love it when you get into stuff. you're 100% on point. cool and keep it up! I would love it, though, if you would take your bike into a proper rock garden and explain to all of us normal fuckers how to ride our mid sized beasts up way steep really stony bits without having the most brutal muscle inflammataion the next day.. ;-) maybe at a certain point of technicality the bikes DO get too big and heavy?
What handguards do you use?
In this video, stock. Sometimes Barkbusters.
Hold the grips like a cone of icecream 🍦
Remember you need an adjusted handlebar hight or otherwise you will bend over it and feel unconfortable asf …
Especially if you are tall. 😅
This point is crucial yet totally missing
All you need is a smaller bike and then ... everything becomes easier so you can focus at the landscapes and enjoy your trip more :)
It doesn’t solve bad technique though ☺️
@@BrakeMagazine True knowledge is always something good. On the other hand Ted Simons traveled around the world in 1973 and he didnt know that is better to stand up when driving off road :)
Yep, went from a 650 to a 350 KTM and I enjoy it 10x more now and my riding got so much better instantly. Trying to learn on an big adventure bike just doesn't make sense to me.
Sounds like the right bike for you at the right time.
What model Suzuki is the bike in the video?
V-Strom 800 DE.
@@BrakeMagazine thanks, I thought it was (but wanted to confirm) thinking about this as my potential next bike. What do you rate it out of 10? (10 being the best)
Depends on what you're using it for. I have a review comparing it to the Transalp that should give you good detail on it. :)
5:33 "We can see here when I transition from sitting to standing my hands change position completely" - No, I can't.
Just remember: Donkey Kong Posture 🦍
I don’t understand the throttle grip design. Your entire interface with the right side of the bar moves. Wouldn’t it be better if the throttle was like a grip shifter on a mountain bike? 2/3 of the grip are static allowing a solid grip on technical terrain. And 1/3 rotating for the throttle?
I know I’m a bit off topic but it’s just a thought.
It’s an interesting question but I think not. Because of the re gripping on the throttle, when doing it well you can use different parts of your hand to control the throttle. Most of the time it’s your outside two fingers.
Because that’s the way it’s seems it’s always been …. Sleds and AVS with thumb throttle ….jet skis with finger throttle …..swapped thumb throttle on my sled last winter and find it so much better but likely because it’s stand up tree riding … sitting down on a cruiser / atv / bike / older trail sled would be different as rider position is very different and maybe thumb / twist works better and feels more natural
Which is also why bar risers aren't always a good thing.
?
Exactly
Daniel san, is it you?
Hi.
It´s elbows out - more out of the centre line than your hands. Probably not high all the time - just out, to give you more range of motion.
I think the point is that it’s the queue that works for you to put your body in the right place. For some people the right que is hands, others it’s elbows
Are you wearing that headband because you lost a bet? Good video though :)
I simply call it the "gorilla position". 🤣🤣🤣
(Not laugh: when I forget about it then I think myself as a gorilla... and it works! I automatically get into the correct posture. 😎)
It's called "Regrip."
Thank you for using his full legal name Ryan Fortnine.
I can't understand why handlebars are built this way, like not much of a bend when you look from above. If they were bent the outside towards the rider way more you would naturally hold it the "cone" way. I am very short and my arms are frigging useless. I physically can't do the "cone" hold as much as I'd like. I'm not an adventure rider btw, I ride a cruiser. But I'm struggling even just to bend my arms. I could if I would lean forwards all the time but that's not relaxed at all.
Because when you hold it a 'cone way' with inward bend it starts to tuck you inward. The problem for shorter riders is not really the bar bend but the reach between the seat and the bars. Some bike are much better for this, some worse.
I typically find ADV bikes to a have a really long reach, apart from KTM's & the Aprilia and the Transalp. BMW's, the Suzuki and quite a few others feel like the reach is long for me at 188cm.
@@BrakeMagazine Thanks for your reply. It really is hard to find a suited bike. And they all seem to get larger and larger.
BTW, the first video on this that I saw was from Bret Tkacs: czcams.com/video/UMhk3dYzV70/video.htmlsi=CWu3L0n5Im64vayM
The only reason to come off the seat is if you are hitting stuff hard enough where it makes sense for your legs to help soak up the impact, or if you are stretching your legs. The lower the center of gravity, the more stable. This goes for, All land based vehicles!
The center of gravity for the bike is lower when standing, because the weight is on the legs and not on the seat. You can move your weight. You are not touching the ground, so the center of gravity of you + the bike doesn't matter, only the center of gravity of the bike.
Pegs, bars, and seat. The parts of the bike where you apply your body weight shifts the center of gravity of the bike itself.
Exactly. Great comment
@@logangodofcandy That is an internet myth and is wrong. CoG is higher when standing. But body movement trumps CoG every time.
he will be so perplexed that people set "fortnine" as his known surname 😂
😂
Try doing a push up when you're elbows are down and in...no strength.
Lmao, I feel a bit vindicated. Idr who, but a motocross CZcamsr called me names in his comments for suggesting there were benefits to an ice cream grip for off-road riding. He seemed like an asshole, now I know he was 👍
Who was that? 😂
@@BrakeMagazine wish I could tell you, very MX-bro guy that popped into my feed. Can't remember for the life of me
Your handlebar is also to low. Raise it. You're welcome
I’m good
Unwatchable due to sound effect noise / music.
96,000 disagree 😂
In all seriousness, mind being more specific?
Way too many variables, and new riders on 500lbs bikes that don't respond to movement if you're not strong enough and coordinated are hurt 🤕 🏭 factorys
Videos these days are like a woman trying to explain something to you. they go the long scenic route around every possible corner before taking you to point! Videos should be like men! Straight to the fucking point!
Except[t unfortunately they can't work like that. MTM was started as exactly that and six years later, videos have to take you on a journey or CZcams kills you stone dead. Sorry my friend, but the algorithm overlords made it so and I'm just playing the game.
@@BrakeMagazine Fair doos man.. I just wont be playing along to an algorithms whims. There was a time when you tube was for posting videos and a bit of fun. Then the overlords found out another way to monetise time! My time is expensive too man so I don't like to be taken for a ride to nowhere!
@@PJMack- I totally agree man.
Watching phoney riders learn to ride is so funny 💀
Very inclusive 😂
While your advice is great, your titling is horrendous. It would be a lot easier for people to find videos on specific techniques of riding if that was in the title and not some nonse4nse clickbait. This was the first video of yours I watched. I wanted to check out the foot placement video, had you not included the title in this video I never would have found it because its not in the title or thumbnail of any videos of what topic you are actually covering. Please consider including the techniques covered in the title or thumbnail. I'm sure that I'm not the only one that finds this annoying and because of it I'm not motivated to watch other videos even if you do a swell job covering the topics. From the perspective of a content consumer; Why do I want to watch the first minute or 2 just to learn the topic that I may or may not have interest in at the time. I'm just going to search a for a topic I know i want to learn about and watch another channel that puts the topic in the title.
Hey,
This is a great point and something that frustrates me as much as you. Unfortunately, the way CZcams has worked has changed a lot.
Once upon a time, producing content and calling it what it was worked fine. People would use it like a search engine but in 2024, it doesn’t work like that. This is my living and getting people to watch videos lives or dies on that. Calling the video ‘Foot position is important and this is how you do it properly’ would be entirely unsuccessful. I know because I did it for a long time and a really struggled with views & growth.
And now that we title things differently, are deliberate with thumbnails and construct videos in a certain way the channels numbers are way better and I get to eat.
The solution here is to join Patreon where we will name things what they are. 😂
Cheers and sorry it’s not ideal. I can’t make humans brains or CZcams work differently.
@BrakeMagazine solution was "Do not recommend this channel"
@@ThePipingViking Seems a bit harsh 😂
Trying to get views with another ones name.
He gave credit for the other one's information, and expanded on it.
Jog on man
Enjoying the content, Does Llel coach in the UK? I couldn't find anything on google...
I did until last summer. I was teaching for my parents company Off Road Skills. They are the UK's best know adventure motorcycle school. www.offroadskills.com
@@BrakeMagazine Thank you Llel, appreciate it!