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Yeah, but the difference is that Mr. Wilson actually believes the Old Testament, while Dr. Heiser thinks it's a creation of post-exilic editors borrowing their theology from Mesopotamian mythology.
@@therealkillerb7643 really? I didn't know that? Where did he say that? The Jewish traditions seems to be the thing he focuses on and uses the most for his arguments.
Michael Heiser isn't some apostate. He still firmly believes in and attests to the inspiration and truth of God's Word. Scribes making edits to the text shouldn't be remotely surprising to anyone, and people who believe that he says the Old Testament was just a fabrication or something are wrong. I've been listening to his series on the book of Exodus and he speaks at length about the different opinions on when the book was written, and the idea that Exodus was written during the exile is never even on the table for him. He denounced the idea that Moses wasn't a real person and had no hand in the creation of the law. He believes in the truth of the Bible's accuracy and reliability. Even so, that doesn't mean there was no editing done by scribes at later times, possibly updating place names or similar. This is especially true when you consider the fact that the book of Exodus and other Mosaic texts are written in the third person. That doesn't make much sense if Moses himself penned it. That doesn't mean he never wrote anything, such as the law, or told his story for others to record, but to believe that he was the only person involved is unrealistic. Take the end of Deuteronomy. How could Moses have written about his own death and how he was buried by God? That doesn't make any sense. More than one person was involved in the writing of the Pentateuch, just looking at it plainly. There is no other option that could make sense.
I believe this is spot on. I personally think the ancient gods were a mix of demonic spirits and tales of ancient human heroes who eventually got raised to divine status by their descendants. For instance, I 'm sure that Odin was probably a real person in Proto-Germanic history. He probably was a great and wise warrior who fought giant wolves and bears and led his tribe. He then was raised to a divine status centuries after his death.
Genesis talks about the nephilim, who were the spawn of “the sons of God” when they mated with human women. “The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.” Genesis 6:4 ESV There is some debate here, as some scholars don’t believe that’s the “sons of God” we’re fallen angels. I think it’s rather clear that they were, because Job also talks about the sons of God, in a way that only makes sense if they were fallen angels. “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.”” Job 1:6-7 ESV Pretty straightforward to me that the “sons of God” we’re clearly demons, and they even came with satan to stand before God and present themselves to Him. The stories of Hercules, Ares, Thor, Odin, etc. and the other ancient Gods make a lot more sense if you take these verses, and look at Goliath and the other giants in Canaan. There were giants in that land when the Israelites went there, and all those cultures worshiped Molech and sacrificed their children to him. Go look at almost every ancient religion, from the Aztecs, Vikings, Phoenicians, and Carthaginians. They all sacrificed to Baal, or Molech, and they all have hero myths that are reminiscent of the nephilim.
And likewise, Al-Lat, Al-Uzah, and Manat were probably actual pre-Islamic Arabian women before being idolized by subsequent generations of Arabs during the _Jahiliya_ (the so-called "pre-Islamic period of ignorance"). And today, Muslims idolize Muhammad and have been doing so for fourteen centuries.
Remember also that the first few generations after Noah lived hundreds of years. The regular people would tend to ascribe divine status to their leaders who never seemed to die. Hence the supposed divinity of Pharaoh.
@@skog8171 I personally hold that it’s talking about the righteous line of Seth intermarrying with the wicked line of Cain. And we all know what happens from future stories when good men marry (or even just get romantically involved with) bad women.
And, interestingly enough, the word "demon" in Greek was just another word for "god" and perhaps even one of the older terms for it. It often is in the diminutive form which can refer to an evil spirit. But even Zeus and the Olympians were referred to as "demons/daemons" by Homer. The word seems to come from those who control destinies. So in the context of Luke-Acts, the words "demon" and "god" were more differentiated by the differences between the beings being referenced rather than a stark literary separation on its own (though, certainly, the usage of terms can be relied upon as distinctions within the cultural context of Luke-Acts).
Don’t take that too far. The Bible was written in a different Greek language. Demon means spirit. That’s why the kjv specifies evil demons. Because humans have demons
@@cosmictreason2242 It was written in Koine Greek in an obvious appeal to the common parlance and sentiments of the Hellenistic time. Even 200 years later, Philostratus of Athens used the term to refer to a “deity,” namely in saying that Apollonius of Tyana was divine. Also if you check any Koine Greek dictionary, the word means “god/goddess.” Also, the word “gods” appears in Hebrew for these entities in Deuteronomy 32, Psalm 59, Psalm 82, Psalm 97, and other places.
@@KMANelPADRINO when you’re the only one in 2000 years of history who has found the truth, and all the genius scholars and eyewitnesses throughout said history are wrong, you don’t have the truth, but are massively self deceived
@@cosmictreason2242 Man, that’s such a false statement to give. First off, it’s right there in the Hebrew and the Greek in the actual original texts of the Bible. Secondly, people only recently re-discovered several meanings of the Bible thanks to the Dead Sea Scrolls and other archaeological findings that have helped to clarify the Scripture. And thirdly, God is always teaching His people- and just “two thousand” years is illogically arbitrary since it just happens to be a rough estimate of the age of the Church. You may as well go back and tell Calvin that his view of God’s sovereignty in God enabling His chosen saints to endure to the end was incorrect since even Augustine did not hold that exact view (Augustine rather at one point saw God as choosing which were to be His saints, but Augustine did not necessarily believe in the doctrine called the “endurance of the saints”). You may as well tell Calvin as well that the Divine Logos lacks aseity, since most Christians in his line of tradition did not confess that. You may as well jettison the Granville-Sharp rule in Greek, which has been pivotal in rediscovering the many places where the full deity of the Son is confessed in the Scriptures. You may as well say that Leviticus 18:18 actually doesn’t bar all polygamy but that the idiomatic expression there that somehow is translated idiomatically everywhere else that it is found in the Hebrew writings ought to be held as majority traditions of English translations have held it. Now, it very well could be that several in the Church did believe what Calvin did in this area and that their works did not survive. But your illogic would bar that. In fact, your illogic makes Biblical studies in the present null and void and erases all expectations that God can teach insights not yet delivered in Sunday sermons. You’re basically enshrining your decided doctrine as it stands today as immutable heavenly tablets.
I think Homer IS wonderful. But one of the many wonderful things about Homer is the way he illustrates the longing, the desperate yearning for Jesus that existed in the hearts and minds of pre-Christian man. Homer isn't "sweetness and light", but he brilliantly and subtly illustrates the tragic nature of the world he lived in and leaves readers hoping for a God who, in contrast to the Olympians, will, as Psalms 82 states, "defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked." Indeed, I think Psalms 82 is almost like a perfect epilogue to the works of Homer and Vergil.
Homer's depiction of the gods does not define their true forms or nature, his stories like all of the others are meant for the human psyche to grasp certain truths about the cosmos, and the world around them. The real gods are eternal just beings, that keep balance the fabric of reality. After all, as educated men, we should realize that myths always stand for other things. They are toys for children teething. The man knows that the toy horse is not a true horse but merely suggests the idea of a horse to a baby's mind.
Pastor Wilson! Praise Jesus for your wisdom. I figured this would be your answer especially after following your critiques on Dr. Heiser's thoughts on the supernatural. This is all very inline with that train of thought. Again, I appreciate you speaking about this.
@@joostbakker Hey brother, the link will be below. Wilson pretty much agrees with Heiser's position with the exception of freewill and Calvinism... but that is why I love this video so much because it was very consistent to Heisers views on things like this. If Doug Wilson and Dr. Michael Heiser agree its strong in my book. czcams.com/video/WlAzw2iQLoc/video.html
This was really good. I took the time given to me due to Covid to study paranormal stuff and I think a lot of what the ancients saw, stories, etc just weren't completely made up if that makes sense.
That depends how you define 'Gods' though. The Bible has no problem using this term in multiple different ways to describe spiritual beings or concepts besides the one true God of Israel. It even calls Satan himself the 'god of this world'.
Also, Noah's progeny would have carried the history of the powerful Nephilim, as well as seen the mighty bones of these twisted and demonic beings that YAH annihilated. These would become "gods" to those that reject YHWH.
couldn't have more respect for Doug but i would like to see more "reformed" pastors talk about genesis 6 and the seed war between the serpent and messiah. Doug doesn't mention the word "nephilim" once here which makes me think he goes with the Sethite theory concerning the "sons of god". Demon's are the disembodied spirits of the nephilim and all of these greek gods were real, living entities dating back to the tower of babbel and prior (names change over time and between different cultures). Seminary schools from what ive heard dont teach this, let alone touch it whatsoever. My point being this subject could be much more elaborated on and i'd love to hear Doug's deeper thoughts on the matter.
He absolutely does not take the Sethite view of the "sons of God." I wish I could remember the name of the video, but just a couple months ago I saw him admit that the nephilim were the product of union between rebellious angels and earth women. If you plowed through a bunch of his videos you'd probably find the place where he says this. And yes, when you try to teach this in the company of polite Presbyterian ministers you will definitely be shouted down immediately. But Doug Wilson takes the bull by the horns and teaches the truth. But his post-millenialism....well, that's another matter.
I did a little searching, and I found the name of Doug's video. It is: "The Nephilim, Hades, and Other Oddments". It's about 12 minutes long, and you'll love it.
As soon as I saw the question, “Were the Greek Gods Real?” turn up in my feed, I said, I’ll bet he’s going to say: “To the extent that they *were* real, they were demons.” Now, how did I know that. Maybe I have the Spirit of Python.
Didn't the Jewish God of the old testament accept sacrifices? And tell people to sacrifice things? And isn't the God of the old testament the God of the new testament? And didn't"God" say not to worship any other Gods before Him? That in itself to me seems as if "God" is admitting the existence of other Gods, or else the wording would have or should have been different. And when He says "false Gods" in other passages, it is still admitting that they are Gods, just not the peoples true God. Correct me if I'm wrong, please, on any of this, but this is how I understand it. But I see things from both sides, not just from a Christian or "pagan" stance. The issue I have with many people who believe that they know a thing or two about things such as this, they tend to be a little to extremely biased because of their beliefs. This guy does seem a bit biased, but still grounded on the subject.
I still wonder about the origin of the specific idols. Were the false ideas about the gods that humans believed brought about by the direct influence of demons, or did people imagine idols in their own heads and then demons stepped in to accept that false worship?
at the Tower of Babel God divorced the nations and give it to those celestial entities which did wrong. Deuteronomy 32:8 [8] When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. and when you read psalm 82 it makes clear about how the nations where under those celestial entities. so I think they directly influenced somehow and wanted worship for themselves.
Potatoe potato? but really likely a combination of all of the above, I personally think its half and half, way way back especially before the flood of course I believe the line in Genesis while not definitive to me I interpret/discern that as flat out meaning that somehow fallen angels somehow some way were able to mate with human women and produce off spring, and that these offspring/hybrids would have had as vaguely human or at least mostly physical form but with some of the strength/powers/ supernatural spiritual abilities there fallen angel fathers had, and with these powers and etc. were then in turn worshipped as "gods" by countless cultures around the world, and decades/centuries after they were at least in physical form dead/gone, said cultures/ tribes/ people around the world then proceeded to pass down mythologies/ history of these former "gods" they and there ancestors used to worship and in some instances got to actually witness and live under first hand way back when and then as with all things certain details and facts and narratives get lost or changed or forgotten or maybe some times lost in translation/ interpreted differently along the way as the decades/centuries went on ya know. Thats how I see it myself.
Another great resource is Michael Heiser. He says that the gods of the nations (Greek, Norse, Roman. any ancient culture)are these other gods.See Deuteronomy 4:19. Someone correct me if I'm wrong about what Heiser taught, but he said God took Israel as His own, but in the dispersion at the tower of Babel, God put all of these other, lesser gods, elohim, to rule over the other 70 nations. These, I believe are the gods of the Greek, Roman, Norse, and any other nations talked about in history. God chose Israel, dispersed everyone else at the tower of Babel, but then sent Jesus to gather the people from those 70 nations back into His family. These gods mated with human women, see Genesis 6, and their offspring were the nephilim. When the nephilim died, their spirits are the demons that are talked about, who are looking to possess humans.
I think a good way to describe daemons, powers and principalities in analytic language would be: immaterial beings with moral agency and causal powers, who can possess human beings and some of whom accept worship as if they were YHWH.
"Take every story you've ever heard, every myth and every legend. It's simpler to start with the assumption they're all real." "Hang on," I said. "Isn't that impossible? Wouldn't some religions being real require others to not be?" "Ah," he said with a flicker of his crooked smile. "I said real, not true." --AG, "Soul Fraud"
This is a good question relating to history, philosophy and theology. I would say in the past, people believed in the Greek gods and goddesses. Today, most people see Greek gods and goddesses as being part of mythology or history.
As a classical Christian educator, who loves the humanities, I have always cringed when fellow Christian educators identify more with Western classicism than with biblical Christianity. The classic pagans inform us of the world Christ existed in, but they are by nature anti Christian in their world view. Classical does not automatically mean good. Thank you for clarifying thism
I appreciate your objections to some extent, but the Apostle Paul himself used the Greek classicism (the epics and poems) of the time to frame some of his messages.
Some were just formed from Ancestor Worship, like a long dead King who was remembered as a great Hero. Others? Perhaps memories of Fallen Angels and Nephilim. (Their Offspring - demigods)
Zeus was a Pelasgian, (ancestors of Albanians) not a Helen! The Iliad and Odyssey were oral poems of Pelasgians. The oracle of Zeus, Dodona of Epirus, was the tempel of Pelasgians. After Iliad the Language of Gods was Gheg - North Albanian Dialect. Herodotus Zacharias Papantoniou (Greek: Ζαχαρίας Παπαντωνίου) was a Greek writer. He was born in Karpenissi of Evrytania in February 1877 and died in Athens in 1940. He spent the first years of his life in Granitsa, where his father was a teacher. Apart from a writer, he was also a journalist. Many of the works of Zacharias Papantoniou, unfortunately, are censored because they tell the truth on Greek history. In that censored group is also the book, ''The King Otto''. Below we state a fragment from this book: ''The young Prince for first time come in Athens on January 25, 1833, he hardly heard anyone speak in Greek and so he asked: "Where are the Greeks in Athens?" His court looked at each other and answered: "There are no Greeks, but do not be troubled because this Albanian population will always be faithful to your monarchy."
I would go even one step further and say that the demi-gods (part god and and part human offspring of the gods) were real also, coming forth from the Genesis 6:1-4 account. They may not have been living during this post-flood part of our history, but their tradition/narrative had been passed down, and the people of this age still revered/worshiped them. Almost of the ancient cultures stories of their gods and demi-gods are strangely similar, just with different names. And these narratives/mythology align with Genesis 6. In the antediluvian world there probably was real “golden age” civilizations (i.e. Atlantis); and they likely had real battles (i.e. clash of the titans) as part of Yahweh’s judgment on the fallen watchers was to make them witness their offspring destroy one another. Before he brought the severe judgment of the flood (save Noah and his “perfect generations”), another common thread through most ancient civilizations. IMO Gen 6:1-4 was part of a cosmic seed war. Trying to destroy the human genetics in order to prevent the possibility of a human savior (Jesus redemptive work). The first 36 chapters of the first book of Enoch detail what happened in Genesis 6:1-4, interesting read if you never have. IMO it should not be included in the Canon for several reasons, but I also believe it is reliable enough to be used as historical narrative (but not to be treated as perfectly inspired), and that it was actually the testimony of Enoch (not a fake contrived by others for their own purposes). Stay away from 2nd and 3rd Enoch, unless reading for insight into Gnosticism. They were written AD, are gnostic, and likely inspired by Satan. 1st Enoch was written BC, has fulfilled prophecies, calls Jesus the Son of Man which is rare in the OT, was preserved by the Ethiopian church and partially in the Dead Sea scrolls, and is quoted by Jude. And my interpretation/view, is that Jesus went to proclaim his victory to the fallen and bound watchers (some of those “mythological” gods) during his time of death, I Pet 3:18-20
Thank you so much for explaining this so well!!!! We need the truth of the gospel in correlation with Greek Mythology (which is not a myth but very true).
Interesting discussion. Listening to this reminded me about a theory I read about regarding the idea of polytheism in the world. If the young universe and earth theory is correct, then it would be logical to assume that the first few generations after Noah would have been monotheist and as the groups of people dispersed, the knowledge of the Diluge and one God would be corrupted and deteriorate into polytheism. Someone else commented that it could have been possible that the 1st generations of the various peoples of the world, would have elevated their progenitors into the Zeus, Thors, Amaterasu and Quetzalcoatl.
Brian Godawa has written and documented about this extensively and even has a series of books that answer these type questions thoroughly. Check him out.
@Arcanum that’s what’s so interesting about the guy. All of his books have a lot of documented scriptures, explanations, and proofs. I highly recommend his books. And I have been a daily and rigorous student of The Word of God for 20 years now. The Bible is my favorite by far!
I'd rather say the Greeks had part of the truth, but not not the entirety of it. Just like the old testament finds it origins in even older stories. It seems like droplets of truth gathering in pools over time.
Matthew 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. Matthew 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. King James Version
Genesis talks about the nephilim, who were the spawn of “the sons of God” when they mated with human women. “The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.” Genesis 6:4 ESV There is some debate here, as some scholars don’t believe that’s the “sons of God” we’re fallen angels. I think it’s rather clear that they were, because Job also talks about the sons of God, in a way that only makes sense if they were fallen angels. “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.”” Job 1:6-7 ESV Pretty straightforward to me that the “sons of God” we’re clearly demons, and they even came with satan to stand before God and present themselves to Him. The stories of Hercules, Ares, Thor, Odin, etc. and the other ancient Gods make a lot more sense if you take these verses, and look at Goliath and the other giants in Canaan. There were giants in that land when the Israelites went there, and all those cultures worshiped Molech and sacrificed their children to him. Go look at almost every ancient religion, from the Aztecs, Vikings, Phoenicians, and Carthaginians. They all sacrificed to Baal, or Molech, and they all have hero myths that are reminiscent of the nephilim
Wasn't it at Babel when the people's were scattered that the boundaries of their lands appointed by God as to the "number of the sons of God." It makes me think of the Prince of Persia, demons/fallen angels given jurisdiction over lands. Interesting subject, of which I know very little! 😄
The sons of God weren’t demons; rather, they were children of Yahweh, who ended up transgressing the borders of heaven and earth, as Jude and Peter suggest. The ones in Gen 6 were imprisoned in Tartarus until the Day of Judgement; the ones at Babel were assigned to the other nations dispersed at Babel (Deut 32:8-9). They later became corrupted and we see their judgement pronounced in Psalm 82. The Son of God came to deal with Adam and Eve’s transgression, as well as disarm the rulers and authorities, putting them to an open shame by His death on the cross. He also came to reclaim the nations dispossessed at Babel, uniting both Jew and Gentile in one body, bringing about the blessing of Abraham to the Gentiles.
A juicier question for humanistic education. WHICH of the cultural patterns we call "TEH GREEK GODS" are most important to represent to the 2020's? For my money, I'm performing Cybele and Attis, Daphne & Apollo, and Plato's Phaedros, which can be read as hymn to EROS.
Awesome topic! I dealt with this as well in the Heavenly Realms series. The Fallen became pagan deities to lead humanity astray and to appease their pride. John Milton talked about it in Paradise Lost as well.
josephus, states that father abram said, all the different peoples gods, were given their power from father god. i mean josephus was from a priestly family & was to be high priest
It's one thing to read about it and a totaly different thing to know about it. Many people don't even realize how blessed they are when nothing happens and life keeps living. Sometimes faith just seems invisible. Who knew that the most powerful force in existence is INVISIBLE? You can't touch it, taste it, feel it, see it nore smell it? I think I might be missing one or two here, but how would you know?
By observing emergent patterns that manifest in our sense world and making inference about what’s giving rise to it. Pattern --> pater= The Father. Though I do believe some people of strong faith can “hear” god talk to them and even more can infer it from the commands of their conscience- (though this can become confused and buried through sin.)
Yes, they were. “The Nephilim were on the earth in those days-and also afterward-when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.” Genesis 6:4 NIV The heroes of old were the Greek demigods like Perseus. They were 100% real but were evil.
I think that there really was a wandering king named Woden who traveled north from Germania towards the Norsemen and taught them many things. I think there really was a soldier who was very impressive in combat and legends grew about him after his death, claiming that he was a child of Zues. Some gods from various regions were actually people, sometimes a particular person, but other times more like a religious/political office. All emperors of Japan are gods in the Shinto religion. The Dali Lama is a god. King Odin was a god. The real question is what does it mean to be god, or to be a god? Different cultures had different answers to that question. Your idea of god is not the only idea of god.
Genesis 6:4 seems to me to be the true narative of the events that Graeco/Roman mythology recorded as gods having sex with mortal women and conceiving demigods such as Hercules.
I think they were descendants of the giant offspring of the fallen angels and human women: "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." Genesis 6:4
I think that behind every myth is a historical basis somewhere lost in time. Were the old gods sometimes demons? The Bible seems to suggest that is at least possible sometimes. Certainly some of them were.
"The malignant sense is because the Greek word was used (with daimonion) in Christian Greek translations and the Vulgate for "god of the heathen, heathen idol" and also for "unclean spirit." Jewish authors earlier had employed the Greek word in this sense, using it to render shedim "lords, idols" in the Septuagint, and Matthew viii.31 has daimones, translated as deofol in Old English, feend or deuil in Middle English. Another Old English word for this was hellcniht, literally "hell-knight."" Stop spraying false informations please
The Bible supports henotheism not monotheism. It never says Baal, Ashtaroth, and Molech don't exist. All it says is Jews shouldn't worship them and that the Israelite God is stronger.
Thanks for all your content. God bless you. The story in Acts 16 vs 17-18 in the Greek does it say “the way” or “a way”? I have wondered that. Seems like it is pretty harsh to rebuke her if she is affirming the message of Salvation is through Christ Alone.
Weren't Greek characters in their mythology heroes from the Bible? Except they believed that actual God (Chronos) is bad, but Adam (Zeus), Eve, Nimrod, etc. are good, freedom delivering heroes.
The gods of myth and religion were celestial beings (ET) who did indeed create the human races and meddle in human affairs. Above these gods stands the One Creator/Source/God, from which all emerged and to which all return. The Greek, Roman, Norse, Egyptian and Sumerian gods were the Anunnaki.
Baal worship was simply an inverted view of the divine council. They believed that Lucifer won in dethroning God and he became “God, the Most High.” It was the idea that Baal worshipers can become gods, (see the serpents temptation to Eve). Same with the Greeks and Romans. Zeus overthrew Kronos to become the Most High. God cannot be overthrown. He is All Powerful!
Still waiting on an answer to the question, "Why study ancient pagan writers?" How is that advantageous at all? Let's stick with thinking on good, pure, holy, virtuous things.
Three reasons: 1) There is occasional wisdom to be found within it (talking about Aristotle, Plato, etc.). Actually good philosophers, but important to realize they *are* pagan. 2) There is actual very real historical value within them. Troy was real, the Acheaen civilization was real, and the war between them was real. 3) *Most Important* -- what the video says. We need to study the ancient world the same reason West Point studies World War 2. As the commenter above says _Know Thy Enemy!_
Ok Doug. Any chance we can get a more exhaustive list of verses in the Bible that would lead to an understanding of this sort of thing? This is an extension of the "Sons of God and daughters of man" type thing, is that correct? or something completely different? Or extra-biblical content like the book of Enoch or something?
@@Charlie5225 the myths of Ancient Greece predate Christianity by thousands of years but lots of their foundational stories and figures are adopted / adapted into the Old Testament. Just some examples; Prometheus defied the gods and gave mankind knowledge for which he was punished severely mirrored in Adam, Eve and the Tree of Knowledge, Pandora (the first woman) opened a box she shouldn't have opened unleashing sorrow upon mankind similar to how Eve is blamed for the fall of man, and when mankind became too wicked Zeus sent a massive flood to cleanse the earth and only two people survived who then repopulated the Earth. This last story however is just a retelling of the Sumerian myth about their god Enlil who punishes humanity with a flood.
Yes I believe so 100 percent......Real Fallen angels/Nephilim....with powers there angel forefathers would have had or some of them at least, and likewise the power that would trick many people to view/worship them as "gods" absolutely.
Fallen angels (Ben Elohim) are not the same as the children they sired by female humans: the Giants (Nephilim). My understanding is that demons are the ghosts/spirits of the deceased of these giants. It's telling that Jesus uses the term "unclean spirit" and "demon" interchangeably. eg Matthew 12
So CURRENTLY, "karma" and Yoga are adopted by the superior "open-minded," As your children are enthralled by "Turning Red." --- But you chose to focus on (ANCIENT) Greeks instead?!? HERRMMM
Doug's a little off here. Mainly in the area of truth. There is truth in the Homeric epics and Plato, and classical historians. Truth that is mixed with what is false...but...also truth that is through a glass darkly. There is such thing as objective art which is what the Iliad and the Odyssey are. They are not merely the products of a dark culture. Doug Wilson has given a shallow take here.
There's also the question: was there really a single demonic entity worshipped as the 'god' apollo or did various demons just take advantage at different times?
Yes they are real. Your planets are named after them, including the days of the week and the months of the year, etc…. The Olympians are just the avatars of these spiritual beings. They are also in the bible as the monotheistic god. Zeus is Yahweh. These entities are currently in control of our world.
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I’ve been trying to watch “no mere marriage” from man rampant but it’s not working in the app (the other episodes are). Can this be fixed?
There’s probably a better avenue to get the help you need. Maybe look for the support email on the canon press site.
tASKS 2 human being’s’ spirited governing 4 ♥️💕💗❤️🌼s !!!/????/.....
This is some Michael Heiser level stuff, glad Canon Press isn't scared to talk about it.
Beat me to it.
Definitely has Heiser overtones.
Yeah, but the difference is that Mr. Wilson actually believes the Old Testament, while Dr. Heiser thinks it's a creation of post-exilic editors borrowing their theology from Mesopotamian mythology.
@@therealkillerb7643 Nope, Heiser doesn't think the Jews borrowed from the Mesopotamians
@@therealkillerb7643 really? I didn't know that? Where did he say that? The Jewish traditions seems to be the thing he focuses on and uses the most for his arguments.
Michael Heiser isn't some apostate. He still firmly believes in and attests to the inspiration and truth of God's Word. Scribes making edits to the text shouldn't be remotely surprising to anyone, and people who believe that he says the Old Testament was just a fabrication or something are wrong. I've been listening to his series on the book of Exodus and he speaks at length about the different opinions on when the book was written, and the idea that Exodus was written during the exile is never even on the table for him. He denounced the idea that Moses wasn't a real person and had no hand in the creation of the law. He believes in the truth of the Bible's accuracy and reliability.
Even so, that doesn't mean there was no editing done by scribes at later times, possibly updating place names or similar. This is especially true when you consider the fact that the book of Exodus and other Mosaic texts are written in the third person. That doesn't make much sense if Moses himself penned it. That doesn't mean he never wrote anything, such as the law, or told his story for others to record, but to believe that he was the only person involved is unrealistic. Take the end of Deuteronomy. How could Moses have written about his own death and how he was buried by God? That doesn't make any sense.
More than one person was involved in the writing of the Pentateuch, just looking at it plainly. There is no other option that could make sense.
I believe this is spot on. I personally think the ancient gods were a mix of demonic spirits and tales of ancient human heroes who eventually got raised to divine status by their descendants. For instance, I 'm sure that Odin was probably a real person in Proto-Germanic history. He probably was a great and wise warrior who fought giant wolves and bears and led his tribe. He then was raised to a divine status centuries after his death.
Genesis talks about the nephilim, who were the spawn of “the sons of God” when they mated with human women.
“The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.”
Genesis 6:4 ESV
There is some debate here, as some scholars don’t believe that’s the “sons of God” we’re fallen angels. I think it’s rather clear that they were, because Job also talks about the sons of God, in a way that only makes sense if they were fallen angels.
“Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.””
Job 1:6-7 ESV
Pretty straightforward to me that the “sons of God” we’re clearly demons, and they even came with satan to stand before God and present themselves to Him. The stories of Hercules, Ares, Thor, Odin, etc. and the other ancient Gods make a lot more sense if you take these verses, and look at Goliath and the other giants in Canaan. There were giants in that land when the Israelites went there, and all those cultures worshiped Molech and sacrificed their children to him. Go look at almost every ancient religion, from the Aztecs, Vikings, Phoenicians, and Carthaginians. They all sacrificed to Baal, or Molech, and they all have hero myths that are reminiscent of the nephilim.
Odin was a magician. Thor was more the warrior type.
And likewise, Al-Lat, Al-Uzah, and Manat were probably actual pre-Islamic Arabian women before being idolized by subsequent generations of Arabs during the _Jahiliya_ (the so-called "pre-Islamic period of ignorance"). And today, Muslims idolize Muhammad and have been doing so for fourteen centuries.
Remember also that the first few generations after Noah lived hundreds of years. The regular people would tend to ascribe divine status to their leaders who never seemed to die. Hence the supposed divinity of Pharaoh.
@@skog8171 I personally hold that it’s talking about the righteous line of Seth intermarrying with the wicked line of Cain. And we all know what happens from future stories when good men marry (or even just get romantically involved with) bad women.
A great spring board to talk to my family and friends about spiritual issues
And, interestingly enough, the word "demon" in Greek was just another word for "god" and perhaps even one of the older terms for it. It often is in the diminutive form which can refer to an evil spirit. But even Zeus and the Olympians were referred to as "demons/daemons" by Homer. The word seems to come from those who control destinies.
So in the context of Luke-Acts, the words "demon" and "god" were more differentiated by the differences between the beings being referenced rather than a stark literary separation on its own (though, certainly, the usage of terms can be relied upon as distinctions within the cultural context of Luke-Acts).
Don’t take that too far. The Bible was written in a different Greek language. Demon means spirit. That’s why the kjv specifies evil demons. Because humans have demons
@@cosmictreason2242
It was written in Koine Greek in an obvious appeal to the common parlance and sentiments of the Hellenistic time. Even 200 years later, Philostratus of Athens used the term to refer to a “deity,” namely in saying that Apollonius of Tyana was divine.
Also if you check any Koine Greek dictionary, the word means “god/goddess.”
Also, the word “gods” appears in Hebrew for these entities in Deuteronomy 32, Psalm 59, Psalm 82, Psalm 97, and other places.
@@KMANelPADRINO when you’re the only one in 2000 years of history who has found the truth, and all the genius scholars and eyewitnesses throughout said history are wrong, you don’t have the truth, but are massively self deceived
@@cosmictreason2242
Man, that’s such a false statement to give.
First off, it’s right there in the Hebrew and the Greek in the actual original texts of the Bible. Secondly, people only recently re-discovered several meanings of the Bible thanks to the Dead Sea Scrolls and other archaeological findings that have helped to clarify the Scripture. And thirdly, God is always teaching His people- and just “two thousand” years is illogically arbitrary since it just happens to be a rough estimate of the age of the Church.
You may as well go back and tell Calvin that his view of God’s sovereignty in God enabling His chosen saints to endure to the end was incorrect since even Augustine did not hold that exact view (Augustine rather at one point saw God as choosing which were to be His saints, but Augustine did not necessarily believe in the doctrine called the “endurance of the saints”).
You may as well tell Calvin as well that the Divine Logos lacks aseity, since most Christians in his line of tradition did not confess that. You may as well jettison the Granville-Sharp rule in Greek, which has been pivotal in rediscovering the many places where the full deity of the Son is confessed in the Scriptures. You may as well say that Leviticus 18:18 actually doesn’t bar all polygamy but that the idiomatic expression there that somehow is translated idiomatically everywhere else that it is found in the Hebrew writings ought to be held as majority traditions of English translations have held it.
Now, it very well could be that several in the Church did believe what Calvin did in this area and that their works did not survive. But your illogic would bar that. In fact, your illogic makes Biblical studies in the present null and void and erases all expectations that God can teach insights not yet delivered in Sunday sermons.
You’re basically enshrining your decided doctrine as it stands today as immutable heavenly tablets.
@@KMANelPADRINO strong’s Greek 4151, look at the usage
A very wise perspective, Brother, thank you and God bless!
I think Homer IS wonderful. But one of the many wonderful things about Homer is the way he illustrates the longing, the desperate yearning for Jesus that existed in the hearts and minds of pre-Christian man. Homer isn't "sweetness and light", but he brilliantly and subtly illustrates the tragic nature of the world he lived in and leaves readers hoping for a God who, in contrast to the Olympians, will, as Psalms 82 states, "defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked." Indeed, I think Psalms 82 is almost like a perfect epilogue to the works of Homer and Vergil.
Homer's depiction of the gods does not define their true forms or nature, his stories like all of the others are meant for the human psyche to grasp certain truths about the cosmos, and the world around them. The real gods are eternal just beings, that keep balance the fabric of reality. After all, as educated men, we should realize that myths always stand for other things. They are toys for children teething. The man knows that the toy horse is not a true horse but merely suggests the idea of a horse to a baby's mind.
@@Son_of_zeus Beings? Plural?
@@JeffDykstra-mq7gk yes.
Pastor Wilson! Praise Jesus for your wisdom. I figured this would be your answer especially after following your critiques on Dr. Heiser's thoughts on the supernatural. This is all very inline with that train of thought. Again, I appreciate you speaking about this.
Could you link me to his critique on Dr. Heiser?
@@joostbakker Hey brother, the link will be below. Wilson pretty much agrees with Heiser's position with the exception of freewill and Calvinism... but that is why I love this video so much because it was very consistent to Heisers views on things like this. If Doug Wilson and Dr. Michael Heiser agree its strong in my book.
czcams.com/video/WlAzw2iQLoc/video.html
@@blakekerr4293 ah thanks, saw that one 😁 and yup, in mine as well 💪🏻😉 Great stuff!
This was really good. I took the time given to me due to Covid to study paranormal stuff and I think a lot of what the ancients saw, stories, etc just weren't completely made up if that makes sense.
Pastor Doug, I have heard heard it said that Jesus spent more time casting out demons than healing the sick. Thanks.
Answer is yes and no.
Yes. Fallen angels bred hybrids with great power.
No, they weren’t Gods. They were powerful and large beings.
That depends how you define 'Gods' though. The Bible has no problem using this term in multiple different ways to describe spiritual beings or concepts besides the one true God of Israel. It even calls Satan himself the 'god of this world'.
Also, Noah's progeny would have carried the history of the powerful Nephilim, as well as seen the mighty bones of these twisted and demonic beings that YAH annihilated. These would become "gods" to those that reject YHWH.
Love you guys
couldn't have more respect for Doug but i would like to see more "reformed" pastors talk about genesis 6 and the seed war between the serpent and messiah. Doug doesn't mention the word "nephilim" once here which makes me think he goes with the Sethite theory concerning the "sons of god". Demon's are the disembodied spirits of the nephilim and all of these greek gods were real, living entities dating back to the tower of babbel and prior (names change over time and between different cultures). Seminary schools from what ive heard dont teach this, let alone touch it whatsoever. My point being this subject could be much more elaborated on and i'd love to hear Doug's deeper thoughts on the matter.
He absolutely does not take the Sethite view of the "sons of God." I wish I could remember the name of the video, but just a couple months ago I saw him admit that the nephilim were the product of union between rebellious angels and earth women. If you plowed through a bunch of his videos you'd probably find the place where he says this. And yes, when you try to teach this in the company of polite Presbyterian ministers you will definitely be shouted down immediately. But Doug Wilson takes the bull by the horns and teaches the truth. But his post-millenialism....well, that's another matter.
@@mcgoodle thanks for the info!
I did a little searching, and I found the name of Doug's video. It is: "The Nephilim, Hades, and Other Oddments". It's about 12 minutes long, and you'll love it.
Doug also gave a glowing review (outside of Heisers armenian soteriology) of the book “Unseen Realm” on goodreads as well.
Holy Smokes! Pastor Doug Wilson admits it.
As soon as I saw the question, “Were the Greek Gods Real?” turn up in my feed, I said, I’ll bet he’s going to say: “To the extent that they *were* real, they were demons.” Now, how did I know that. Maybe I have the Spirit of Python.
Didn't the Jewish God of the old testament accept sacrifices? And tell people to sacrifice things? And isn't the God of the old testament the God of the new testament? And didn't"God" say not to worship any other Gods before Him? That in itself to me seems as if "God" is admitting the existence of other Gods, or else the wording would have or should have been different. And when He says "false Gods" in other passages, it is still admitting that they are Gods, just not the peoples true God. Correct me if I'm wrong, please, on any of this, but this is how I understand it. But I see things from both sides, not just from a Christian or "pagan" stance. The issue I have with many people who believe that they know a thing or two about things such as this, they tend to be a little to extremely biased because of their beliefs. This guy does seem a bit biased, but still grounded on the subject.
Python is a computer language used for algorithms. That's why you get pop up ads on your phone.
The Bible says Zeus was a real god worshipped often.
Zeus was inspired by a fallen Elohim who cannot match the infinite timeless God of the Bible
Insightful and broadening , thank you!
I still wonder about the origin of the specific idols. Were the false ideas about the gods that humans believed brought about by the direct influence of demons, or did people imagine idols in their own heads and then demons stepped in to accept that false worship?
Those are the only two options?
at the Tower of Babel God divorced the nations and give it to those celestial entities which did wrong.
Deuteronomy 32:8
[8] When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
and when you read psalm 82 it makes clear about how the nations where under those celestial entities. so I think they directly influenced somehow and wanted worship for themselves.
Why not both?
Potatoe potato? but really likely a combination of all of the above, I personally think its half and half, way way back especially before the flood of course I believe the line in Genesis while not definitive to me I interpret/discern that as flat out meaning that somehow fallen angels somehow some way were able to mate with human women and produce off spring, and that these offspring/hybrids would have had as vaguely human or at least mostly physical form but with some of the strength/powers/ supernatural spiritual abilities there fallen angel fathers had, and with these powers and etc. were then in turn worshipped as "gods" by countless cultures around the world, and decades/centuries after they were at least in physical form dead/gone, said cultures/ tribes/ people around the world then proceeded to pass down mythologies/ history of these former "gods" they and there ancestors used to worship and in some instances got to actually witness and live under first hand way back when and then as with all things certain details and facts and narratives get lost or changed or forgotten or maybe some times lost in translation/ interpreted differently along the way as the decades/centuries went on ya know. Thats how I see it myself.
Another great resource is Michael Heiser. He says that the gods of the nations (Greek, Norse, Roman. any ancient culture)are these other gods.See Deuteronomy 4:19. Someone correct me if I'm wrong about what Heiser taught, but he said God took Israel as His own, but in the dispersion at the tower of Babel, God put all of these other, lesser gods, elohim, to rule over the other 70 nations. These, I believe are the gods of the Greek, Roman, Norse, and any other nations talked about in history. God chose Israel, dispersed everyone else at the tower of Babel, but then sent Jesus to gather the people from those 70 nations back into His family. These gods mated with human women, see Genesis 6, and their offspring were the nephilim. When the nephilim died, their spirits are the demons that are talked about, who are looking to possess humans.
I think a good way to describe daemons, powers and principalities in analytic language would be: immaterial beings with moral agency and causal powers, who can possess human beings and some of whom accept worship as if they were YHWH.
"Take every story you've ever heard, every myth and every legend. It's simpler to start with the assumption they're all real."
"Hang on," I said. "Isn't that impossible? Wouldn't some religions being real require others to not be?"
"Ah," he said with a flicker of his crooked smile. "I said real, not true."
--AG, "Soul Fraud"
Of coarse they were, fallen angels or watchers of old
This is a good question relating to history, philosophy and theology. I would say in the past, people believed in the Greek gods and goddesses. Today, most people see Greek gods and goddesses as being part of mythology or history.
Wilson getting blurry. I like it!
Not “were.” Are.
As a classical Christian educator, who loves the humanities, I have always cringed when fellow Christian educators identify more with Western classicism than with biblical Christianity. The classic pagans inform us of the world Christ existed in, but they are by nature anti Christian in their world view. Classical does not automatically mean good. Thank you for clarifying thism
The works of Ὅμηρος felt a lot more profound and personal to me than any of the gospels.
I appreciate your objections to some extent, but the Apostle Paul himself used the Greek classicism (the epics and poems) of the time to frame some of his messages.
@@js1423 Personal...doubtful.
I am taking notes! Wow 👌 👏 😍
Honestly nobody knows because none of us were there. You can't claim to know.
That’s not true.
If I find a fallen tree in the forest covered in axe marks, I can say someone cut it down even tho I wasn’t there
He just did!
So is Athena real?
Very interesting, thank you!
Marvel movie joke was great 😂
Thor god of thunder , Ms marvel is about Muslim, moon knight is moon god which is Muslim , a lots of pagan gods
Some were just formed from Ancestor Worship, like a long dead King who was remembered as a great Hero.
Others? Perhaps memories of Fallen Angels and Nephilim.
(Their Offspring - demigods)
Excellent
I always wondered if Greek, Egyptian, Norse "gods" were actually demons but in contact with them
Zeus was a Pelasgian, (ancestors of Albanians) not a Helen! The Iliad and Odyssey were oral poems of Pelasgians. The oracle of Zeus, Dodona of Epirus, was the tempel of Pelasgians. After Iliad the Language of Gods was Gheg - North Albanian Dialect. Herodotus
Zacharias Papantoniou (Greek: Ζαχαρίας Παπαντωνίου) was a Greek writer. He was born in Karpenissi of Evrytania in February 1877 and died in Athens in 1940. He spent the first years of his life in Granitsa, where his father was a teacher. Apart from a writer, he was also a journalist. Many of the works of Zacharias Papantoniou, unfortunately, are censored because they tell the truth on Greek history. In that censored group is also the book, ''The King Otto''. Below we state a fragment from this book: ''The young Prince for first time come in Athens on January 25, 1833, he hardly heard anyone speak in Greek and so he asked: "Where are the Greeks in Athens?" His court looked at each other and answered: "There are no Greeks, but do not be troubled because this Albanian population will always be faithful to your monarchy."
I would go even one step further and say that the demi-gods (part god and and part human offspring of the gods) were real also, coming forth from the Genesis 6:1-4 account.
They may not have been living during this post-flood part of our history, but their tradition/narrative had been passed down, and the people of this age still revered/worshiped them.
Almost of the ancient cultures stories of their gods and demi-gods are strangely similar, just with different names.
And these narratives/mythology align with Genesis 6.
In the antediluvian world there probably was real “golden age” civilizations (i.e. Atlantis); and they likely had real battles (i.e. clash of the titans) as part of Yahweh’s judgment on the fallen watchers was to make them witness their offspring destroy one another.
Before he brought the severe judgment of the flood (save Noah and his “perfect generations”), another common thread through most ancient civilizations.
IMO Gen 6:1-4 was part of a cosmic seed war.
Trying to destroy the human genetics in order to prevent the possibility of a human savior (Jesus redemptive work).
The first 36 chapters of the first book of Enoch detail what happened in Genesis 6:1-4, interesting read if you never have.
IMO it should not be included in the Canon for several reasons, but I also believe it is reliable enough to be used as historical narrative (but not to be treated as perfectly inspired), and that it was actually the testimony of Enoch (not a fake contrived by others for their own purposes).
Stay away from 2nd and 3rd Enoch, unless reading for insight into Gnosticism. They were written AD, are gnostic, and likely inspired by Satan.
1st Enoch was written BC, has fulfilled prophecies, calls Jesus the Son of Man which is rare in the OT, was preserved by the Ethiopian church and partially in the Dead Sea scrolls, and is quoted by Jude.
And my interpretation/view, is that Jesus went to proclaim his victory to the fallen and bound watchers (some of those “mythological” gods) during his time of death, I Pet 3:18-20
hummm someone who did his homework, if you know younknow and certainly totally agree with you on 3nd and 3rd Enoch not to be taken into consideration.
Thank you so much for explaining this so well!!!! We need the truth of the gospel in correlation with Greek Mythology (which is not a myth but very true).
Anyone know what grade level doug would teach these thing at his Logos school?
Well put, Pastor, and very logical!! I toyed with an ouija board in my youth and the demons were there so I got rid of it...
God bless y'all!!
Interesting discussion. Listening to this reminded me about a theory I read about regarding the idea of polytheism in the world. If the young universe and earth theory is correct, then it would be logical to assume that the first few generations after Noah would have been monotheist and as the groups of people dispersed, the knowledge of the Diluge and one God would be corrupted and deteriorate into polytheism. Someone else commented that it could have been possible that the 1st generations of the various peoples of the world, would have elevated their progenitors into the Zeus, Thors, Amaterasu and Quetzalcoatl.
Right on. I teach this same stuff in my courses and at church.
Brian Godawa has written and documented about this extensively and even has a series of books that answer these type questions thoroughly. Check him out.
I thought he’s exclusively a fiction writer.
@Arcanum that’s what’s so interesting about the guy. All of his books have a lot of documented scriptures, explanations, and proofs. I highly recommend his books. And I have been a daily and rigorous student of The Word of God for 20 years now. The Bible is my favorite by far!
I'd rather say the Greeks had part of the truth, but not not the entirety of it. Just like the old testament finds it origins in even older stories.
It seems like droplets of truth gathering in pools over time.
Matthew 15:25
Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Matthew 15:26
But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
King James Version
Genesis talks about the nephilim, who were the spawn of “the sons of God” when they mated with human women.
“The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.”
Genesis 6:4 ESV
There is some debate here, as some scholars don’t believe that’s the “sons of God” we’re fallen angels. I think it’s rather clear that they were, because Job also talks about the sons of God, in a way that only makes sense if they were fallen angels.
“Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.””
Job 1:6-7 ESV
Pretty straightforward to me that the “sons of God” we’re clearly demons, and they even came with satan to stand before God and present themselves to Him. The stories of Hercules, Ares, Thor, Odin, etc. and the other ancient Gods make a lot more sense if you take these verses, and look at Goliath and the other giants in Canaan. There were giants in that land when the Israelites went there, and all those cultures worshiped Molech and sacrificed their children to him. Go look at almost every ancient religion, from the Aztecs, Vikings, Phoenicians, and Carthaginians. They all sacrificed to Baal, or Molech, and they all have hero myths that are reminiscent of the nephilim
Wasn't it at Babel when the people's were scattered that the boundaries of their lands appointed by God as to the "number of the sons of God."
It makes me think of the Prince of Persia, demons/fallen angels given jurisdiction over lands. Interesting subject, of which I know very little! 😄
The sons of God weren’t demons; rather, they were children of Yahweh, who ended up transgressing the borders of heaven and earth, as Jude and Peter suggest. The ones in Gen 6 were imprisoned in Tartarus until the Day of Judgement; the ones at Babel were assigned to the other nations dispersed at Babel (Deut 32:8-9). They later became corrupted and we see their judgement pronounced in Psalm 82.
The Son of God came to deal with Adam and Eve’s transgression, as well as disarm the rulers and authorities, putting them to an open shame by His death on the cross. He also came to reclaim the nations dispossessed at Babel, uniting both Jew and Gentile in one body, bringing about the blessing of Abraham to the Gentiles.
A juicier question for humanistic education.
WHICH of the cultural patterns we call "TEH GREEK GODS" are most important to represent to the 2020's?
For my money, I'm performing Cybele and Attis, Daphne & Apollo, and Plato's Phaedros, which can be read as hymn to EROS.
In that case how many gods were there? If the all mighty created all then no red for these other gods that offered what was already created.
Interesting take
Awesome topic! I dealt with this as well in the Heavenly Realms series. The Fallen became pagan deities to lead humanity astray and to appease their pride. John Milton talked about it in Paradise Lost as well.
I adore John Milton but I think this is perhaps a slightly too empirical reading of the poem.
How when those pagan deities existed before any abrahamic faith
josephus, states that father abram said, all the different peoples gods, were given their power from father god. i mean josephus was from a priestly family & was to be high priest
Greek here, why can't you Americans stay on your lane?
It's one thing to read about it and a totaly different thing to know about it.
Many people don't even realize how blessed they are when nothing happens and life keeps living. Sometimes faith just seems invisible.
Who knew that the most powerful force in existence is INVISIBLE? You can't touch it, taste it, feel it, see it nore smell it?
I think I might be missing one or two here, but how would you know?
By observing emergent patterns that manifest in our sense world and making inference about what’s giving rise to it. Pattern --> pater= The Father.
Though I do believe some people of strong faith can “hear” god talk to them and even more can infer it from the commands of their conscience- (though this can become confused and buried through sin.)
@@SL-es5kb
Computers obseve patterns and still don't get anywhere.
Yes, they were. “The Nephilim were on the earth in those days-and also afterward-when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.”
Genesis 6:4 NIV
The heroes of old were the Greek demigods like Perseus. They were 100% real but were evil.
The fallen angels were apparently on Mt. Hermon, whereas the Greek Gods were on Mt. Olympus…quite possibly the same group in both accounts.
@Prey R - Yes, they would be regional folktales. - just my best guess.
I think that there really was a wandering king named Woden who traveled north from Germania towards the Norsemen and taught them many things. I think there really was a soldier who was very impressive in combat and legends grew about him after his death, claiming that he was a child of Zues. Some gods from various regions were actually people, sometimes a particular person, but other times more like a religious/political office. All emperors of Japan are gods in the Shinto religion. The Dali Lama is a god. King Odin was a god.
The real question is what does it mean to be god, or to be a god? Different cultures had different answers to that question. Your idea of god is not the only idea of god.
Genesis 6:4 seems to me to be the true narative of the events that Graeco/Roman mythology recorded as gods having sex with mortal women and conceiving demigods such as Hercules.
It is logical that they were the ancestors of the ancient Greeks
Great video.
Yes. Either Fallen Angels or the children between those fallen and the daughters of men.
No where are theu
Could they have been the people they Genesis 6:4 was referring to the “hero’s of old”?
I think they were descendants of the giant offspring of the fallen angels and human women:
"There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." Genesis 6:4
I think that behind every myth is a historical basis somewhere lost in time. Were the old gods sometimes demons? The Bible seems to suggest that is at least possible sometimes. Certainly some of them were.
Yes, depending on what you mean by real.
"The malignant sense is because the Greek word was used (with daimonion) in Christian Greek translations and the Vulgate for "god of the heathen, heathen idol" and also for "unclean spirit." Jewish authors earlier had employed the Greek word in this sense, using it to render shedim "lords, idols" in the Septuagint, and Matthew viii.31 has daimones, translated as deofol in Old English, feend or deuil in Middle English. Another Old English word for this was hellcniht, literally "hell-knight.""
Stop spraying false informations please
Plutarch reports that during his lifetime, parallel to Christ’s life, all the oracles disappeared and were no longer operative.
The Bible supports henotheism not monotheism. It never says Baal, Ashtaroth, and Molech don't exist. All it says is Jews shouldn't worship them and that the Israelite God is stronger.
Thanks for all your content. God bless you. The story in Acts 16 vs 17-18 in the Greek does it say “the way” or “a way”?
I have wondered that. Seems like it is pretty harsh to rebuke her if she is affirming the message of Salvation is through Christ Alone.
Weren't Greek characters in their mythology heroes from the Bible? Except they believed that actual God (Chronos) is bad, but Adam (Zeus), Eve, Nimrod, etc. are good, freedom delivering heroes.
They are real..they are a spiritual authority in their heavens..and glorius as well
Thy are not real
Interesting.
I thought maybe the greek, roman, Egyptian gods were influenced by fallen angels who might have been toying with these civilisation.
Is Hell rill?
Bascially...its human imagination.
These guys are just awesome
The gods of myth and religion were celestial beings (ET) who did indeed create the human races and meddle in human affairs. Above these gods stands the One Creator/Source/God, from which all emerged and to which all return. The Greek, Roman, Norse, Egyptian and Sumerian gods were the Anunnaki.
Share some mushrooms with the rest of us
Baal worship was simply an inverted view of the divine council. They believed that Lucifer won in dethroning God and he became “God, the Most High.” It was the idea that Baal worshipers can become gods, (see the serpents temptation to Eve).
Same with the Greeks and Romans. Zeus overthrew Kronos to become the Most High.
God cannot be overthrown. He is All Powerful!
7:17
Fair enough.
Lol .. you are asking that of the guy who believes in magic fruit trees and talking snakes ? Hahaha
Based
6:00
Why? Deut 32 tells us because God set it up that way after Babel.
Interesting
Yep.
Still waiting on an answer to the question, "Why study ancient pagan writers?" How is that advantageous at all? Let's stick with thinking on good, pure, holy, virtuous things.
Three reasons:
1) There is occasional wisdom to be found within it (talking about Aristotle, Plato, etc.). Actually good philosophers, but important to realize they *are* pagan.
2) There is actual very real historical value within them. Troy was real, the Acheaen civilization was real, and the war between them was real.
3) *Most Important* -- what the video says. We need to study the ancient world the same reason West Point studies World War 2. As the commenter above says _Know Thy Enemy!_
Ok Doug. Any chance we can get a more exhaustive list of verses in the Bible that would lead to an understanding of this sort of thing? This is an extension of the "Sons of God and daughters of man" type thing, is that correct? or something completely different? Or extra-biblical content like the book of Enoch or something?
Also, are we contending with these demon/gods today, similar to what is described in the NT about them? Thx Doug
Is our God in Greek Mythology?
No. All the Gods of Greece were created beings. “The sons of God” mentioned in the Old Testament.
@@Charlie5225 the myths of Ancient Greece predate Christianity by thousands of years but lots of their foundational stories and figures are adopted / adapted into the Old Testament. Just some examples; Prometheus defied the gods and gave mankind knowledge for which he was punished severely mirrored in Adam, Eve and the Tree of Knowledge, Pandora (the first woman) opened a box she shouldn't have opened unleashing sorrow upon mankind similar to how Eve is blamed for the fall of man, and when mankind became too wicked Zeus sent a massive flood to cleanse the earth and only two people survived who then repopulated the Earth. This last story however is just a retelling of the Sumerian myth about their god Enlil who punishes humanity with a flood.
But I can feel the power of Zeus.
Yes I believe so 100 percent......Real Fallen angels/Nephilim....with powers there angel forefathers would have had or some of them at least, and likewise the power that would trick many people to view/worship them as "gods" absolutely.
Fallen angels (Ben Elohim) are not the same as the children they sired by female humans: the Giants (Nephilim).
My understanding is that demons are the ghosts/spirits of the deceased of these giants.
It's telling that Jesus uses the term "unclean spirit" and "demon" interchangeably. eg Matthew 12
What an opener!!! BRavO
They are real tell em the truth
Was Jesus Real??
So CURRENTLY, "karma" and Yoga are adopted by the superior "open-minded," As your children are enthralled by "Turning Red." --- But you chose to focus on (ANCIENT) Greeks instead?!? HERRMMM
AMEN & AMEN
Didn't actually answer the question. Basically, what Doug's response was "they could be demon possessed people." You know, because that makes sense..
that's... a perfectly reasonable answer
@@user-oh5gz4ue6r Assuming demons are real? Sure.
@@Rocksidion uhh, yeah he's a christian, so idk what you want him to believe
@@user-oh5gz4ue6r I was just looking for answers. I did not expect religious bias.
To the ancient Greeks, yes!
let’s go woug dilson!
This never happened
Doug's a little off here. Mainly in the area of truth. There is truth in the Homeric epics and Plato, and classical historians. Truth that is mixed with what is false...but...also truth that is through a glass darkly. There is such thing as objective art which is what the Iliad and the Odyssey are. They are not merely the products of a dark culture. Doug Wilson has given a shallow take here.
There's also the question: was there really a single demonic entity worshipped as the 'god' apollo or did various demons just take advantage at different times?
I disagree. He’s nuanced when he teaches it. Maybe don’t read too much into what he said.
@@raskolnikov6443 As a typical academic the Homeric epics are over his head.
Yes they are real. Your planets are named after them, including the days of the week and the months of the year, etc…. The Olympians are just the avatars of these spiritual beings. They are also in the bible as the monotheistic god. Zeus is Yahweh. These entities are currently in control of our world.