Are Dwarfs In Warhammer The Old World OP?!-“Live Army Rules Review!”
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- čas přidán 5. 03. 2024
- Dwarfs are looking super strong in Old World… Strike the Runes!!! Enjoy!
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Really interested in a video to help doing a list for dwarves and I also look forward to the High Elves review!
For sure man! Dwarf list building will be next 😉 and will definitely do high elves soon as well!
Great break down. Had my first game the other day and missed alot of rules on my hammers.
It happens man my first couple of games I missed a lot of rules too!
Dwarfs have always had balance issues in both Warhammer Fantasy and Total War Warhammer PvP (which is generally a pretty accurate representation). Their issue is that they have basically exactly one playstyle. Heavy shooting with a durable frontline. In many ways they are even more single focussed than something like Tau, because they are at least mobile, which offers opportunity for balancing and counterplay.
This leads to a few problems. Even when they are "balanced" (as in their winrate is balanced across all games) they almost exclusively have bad or good matchups and nothing in between. So they either are favoured heavily into the enemy army or are at a big disadvantage. something like 70% win/loss ratio and loss/win ratio respectively.
Now, when they are too strong, they are an absolute nightmare for many enemies to face and almost an autoloss for multiple factions. If GW wants to fix the core of the issue, they need to expand the dwarven army to encourage different playstyles/options and nerf their most egregious aspects of their basic tactics. However the much more likely scenario is sadly them being nerfed to one of the lowest winrate factions. Because that way factions with a poor matchup at least have a chance against them, while those with a good matchup beat the living s**t out of them. It's also unfortunately a better solution for the game health than letting them stay at 50%.
That is imo the worst thing they could do. Trying to bring them to a 50% winrate unless the necessary steps are taken to solve their implicit problems. Because then, I can nigh on assure you, they'll end up being the most hated faction in the game, and I can't imagine playing them will be very enjoyable either with most games basically being decided when you see the matchup.
Good points and very true sadly 😔 right now they seem really strong with the rules of old world
Fair points overall, but the Tau being a mobile / ranged faction also doesn't sound super easy to balance (although I haven't played them). After all, mobile / ranged can probably crush slow melee factions by just kiting them to death, or crush factions that rely very much on one critical model -- while struggling against quick / good-engaging melee factions.
@@lightworker2956Well. Yes and no. T'au are definitely one of the hardest to balance factions in 40k, exactly because they are so single phase focused. The shooting phase. They tend to either struggle to punch up into high tier armies or are very oppressive. That said, they are also quite difficult to play optimally, because you can just stand in a line and shoot.
Mind you, 40k is quite a different game. Usage of cover is very important, because generally units are much more damaging. At the same time, at least in 10th edition (the current one), the game revolves around objectives in the mid board a lot (as well as secondary objectives all over), which T'au stilll have to play with, even though they tend to have problems. So kiting an enemy doesn't work all that well, if you can't hold any objectives or contest the middle of the board.
Overall, while they do suffer from this problem, it's far less noticeable than with Dwarves. They have a lot of room for skill expression. With Dwarves it's often just how you setup and then it's pretty easy to pilot.
In the history of WHFB Dwarves have never been dominant once. M3 and no magic mean they don't have the tools to be dominant because they can not cover all of the bases a dominant army needs to cover. Shooting in WHFB is not shooting in 40K, never has been. You don't delete units with shooting unless those units are very small, weak and in the open. Historically dwarves have been the kind of army people hoped to avoid at tournaments because they were good at getting a draw or only allowinga minor victory for the opponent, which meant ruining the prospects for a perfect score.
I have a Dwarf fantasy army from years back. It's not GW but Folio Works. However, some of the rules were very silly. They had a short lived magazine alternative to White Dwarf called Red Giant.
Nice dude I never knew that! Red Giant!! Haha 😆
They are so OP they have the worst win rate in the whole game atm (39%). Dwarves have the worst movement in the game, the worst magic AND the worst magic defense (yep: turns out MR doesn’t work on anything that is not a curse or a magic missile… and even then the best modifier dwarves can have to dispel is +3, everyone else can go to +5 to cast or dispel and some armies can go to +6… now keep in mind to dispel you need to beat your opponent’s roll and you see how much dwarves are outclassed in terms of magic defense). They have no monsters or cavalry in an edition in which monsters and cavalry are extremely powerful. Their artillery is the most basic around and the runes do very little to make it better. Runes in general are overcosted (a sword of might from the CRB costs 20 pts to get the same effect dwarves need to spend 35pts…).They have no access to monster slayer, strike last on enemies, regeneration (the best you can do is a SINGLE dwarf character with AS2+ WS5+, a black orc can have 2+/5+/5+ AND carry a great weapon, but HE and chaos beat dwarves in terms of armor as well).
Btw, oathstones are utter garbage.
Oathstones are fantastic, the problem is they are easy to avoid. At the ultra competitive level I’m realizing the issues dwarfs have but they are quite awesome in matches at your local game store. Old world in general is a complete joke as far as balance atm the thumbnail wasn’t really to be taken literally within the context of the highest no hold barred tournament play.
@@ProxyHammer1Fantastic for what? You do realize one can accept the challenge with a champion, right? And Dwarves have M3. It's their main weakness (the other is basically no magic which is also pretty huge, along with no cavalry and no monsters), it means 9 times out of 10 dwarves can only react to the opponent because the opponent can choose what fights or not. It's all well and good to have a 900+ pts unit of hammerers but they might see no combat for 6 turns or, if they do, face something they cannot handle
you can only accept a challenge with a model thats alive and that champ is dying in the first challenge. alsp the second part ofc the oathstone is good too for only 15pts. @@Tulkash01
@@ProxyHammer1Yeah, you are assuming whatever has the Oathstone is going to make a huge difference in a challenge... AND there are quite a few units that can have multiple champions
fair enough!@@Tulkash01
I found dwarfs really lacking with strong single monsters like dragons where dwarfs have no counterplay or lv 4 wizards with magic being really strong as well
Rune of Spell Breaking eats level 4 wizards for breakfast 😉 actually solo thanes with an oathstone might actually be good at assassinating spell casters
@@ProxyHammer1 I disagree both runesmiths and runelord are short dispell range and usually inside the unit so cant manouvre as well as lv4 wizards on monsters or with fly magic items can, beastmen lv4 shaman with some magic item for reroll deleted half of my army and nothing I could do about it. There is also no answer for monsters atm, we dont have monster slayer keyword and dragon slayer is too slow to keep up even with non flying monsters
@@SuperPetasek We have MR -1 across the board and access to runes of spell breaking though? Last I checked you don’t need LOS to dispel. Am I wrong?
@@ProxyHammer1 MR 1 doesnt help all that much vs lv 4 wizards, lot of strong magic are buffs like flying, or ethereal and vortexes doesnt care either. From my understanding to cast and dispell you have to have the other wizard in your front arc (sure you dont have to see them) which is no problem for wizards on monsters or solo wizards standing within 3 inches of units but kind of sucks for our rumesmiths who should be locked in the units. If I am high Elf and have wizard on dragon I just fly on the other side of the battlefield, no dispell range no spellbreaking… or just keep outside of 18 inches also rune of spellbreaking is amazing but it cost 25 and is one use only, lv 4 wizard with hound item like ruby ring have 5 spells a round also again characters on monsters are very strong now and we dont have answer, how would you deal with chaos dragon with good save, ward and regen ?
The only thing i can think of is double cannon with rune of burning but ya true dragon wizards need a Nerf for sure im not sure any faction has the tools to kill that@@SuperPetasek
Important to know it does not get the skirmished penalty to be shot as it’s not unit size 1.
Ahhh good point tyvm!
Oath Stone is auto-include? Slow dwarfs aren't going to catch any units with characters that won't want to accept the challenge. You aren't going to get into a unit with a Wizard or something and no champion unless your opponent is several skill levels below yours.
In highly competitive play yes. I’m starting to realize the local players of old world are pretty casual. Tbh competitive old world is a complete shit show and is so unbelievably unbalanced it’s crazy. Oath stone is very good as it’s other effect is quite powerful as well
To clarify I think anything but dual anvil of doom is kind of crap for competitive as far as lords go
@@ProxyHammer1 - Interesting take. I think Dwarfs have potential, but in a game where Movement is the most important stat, they are reduced to "gunline" play as of now.
A killy dwarf King will never catch an enemy Lord on a mount, and no enemy Lord on a dragon is going to choose to get into a combat with your super killy King unless they are more killy. This makes a killy King do nothing except deter lesser killy characters, rendering most Runes obsolete.
I honestly feel Resolute is missing something. Resolute means determined. There is nothing "determined" about the rule though, it is just a penalty!
I think they should add a line to it that makes it so Dwarfs are always in Marching Column, or they get a +1 to charges. As Gimli said, Dwarfs are good over short distances!
Some ways to Dwarf weaknesses are to ally in Empire Wizards and Knights - but at that point, why not just play Empire?
The pull of Hashut is strong as well...
ya well its really that dragons and single entities are way too strong honestly@@andrewbakescakes9684
@@ProxyHammer1 - Truth. It would take something like 5 turns for 6 dwarf bolt-throwers firing within half range to kill an enemy lord on a dragon that has a 5+++. Factor i the dragon will be in combat with your non-great weapon stuff, and it's not looking good.
I like that these characters are strong and menacing, but I don't like that some armies have no recourse against them.
ORGAN... like your liver and heart. Not Ogryn Gun.
Could have sworn I said that 🫤 whoops!
I agree, the fluff and looks, the late 5th Ed - 6th Ed models anyways, are some of my GW favs all time. I don´t necessarily love playing them though.. But Colin Dixon´s Longbeards, the metal war machines, the Miners etc.. i love them.
They are super cool! Love the old metal character sculpts
@@ProxyHammer1 I like the White Dwarf from the WD 200 celebration, the later one with ale in his helmet and then Drong, especially.. :) Never bought any of the 7th Ed ones but a couple there looks nice. Especially the one with him leaning on the axe and the one similar ona hammer, while pondering how the Orcs raided his brewery? ;)
@@ja37d-34 That was so cool! Really enjoyed seeing that sculpt!
Newbie here. how would you rank war machines from best to worst?
My pleasure! Imho
1.) Cannon
2.) Grudge Thrower
3.) Bolt thrower
4.) Flame Cannon
5.) Organ Gun
@@ProxyHammer1 thank you!
@@davidtaylor3098 my pleasure!!
"Tell me if you love minors" Proxyhammer 2024
Miners*
You gonna explain that to the prosecutor, not me)@@ProxyHammer1
Ya let's not go there it's not even funny to joke about 😐@@user-gw9ik7zd9e
Gromril weapons isn't armorbane 1 its AP 1, vastly better
Good to know tyvm!!
I really dislike that the only way to be on par with a level 4 caster is to spam runelords. The dispels for Runesmiths/Runelords/anvil should have been +2/+3/+4. The anvil should be lvl 4. It doesn't need the MR3, or at least it should convey that MR 3 to it's command range.
The use of runedudes is very restrictive and you pretty much have to have them in units. MR doesn't protect against the enemy casting their buffs or conveyance spells. Only hexes and direct damage. Very little counter play. I think if you introduce an element that has no counter play then it should be over the top in the opposite. What I mean if dwarfs are robbed of offensive magic then their defense should be overwhelming.
Same dude, having only an 18” range on runelords is a bit stupid
@@ProxyHammer1 yeah and at least when you purchase a wizard you have the options for magic. All you get with a runepriest is the ability to spend points on magical defense, and if you use that your scroll caddies are up on the front lines with no extra protection. Just basic gear.
I've found a Runelord with a Spellbreaker to stop one critical spell, plus Calm on the BSB has been fairly effective at magic defense, but that comes close to 200 points, so you might as well take an Anvil at 235
@@thedanish5523 very true double anvil meta!
@@thedanish5523 Exactly because at least you get some offense. Everyone else pays 200 points for magic they get a wizard with spells. You spend 200 points on pure defense. Should be cheaper.
Have you played ToW yet or just read the rules? Cause I'm hearing sorta incorrect stuff
I’ve played like 3 games not a lot of experience tbh. These are just my initial thoughts things may change in fact I’m planning on coming out with a new vid soon. Be sure to correct me in the comments if I get something wrong I’d appreciate it!
@@ProxyHammer1 ok, i also only have 3 games played myself so look forward to what you say after some more experiences.
Short answer no but they're not bad either.
On slayers.... a small block is a great counter charge unit. Deterring your opponent from taking an otherwise favorable charge.
Totally agree! Best to put these guys on the flanks!
This has not aged well
No it hasn’t lol 😂 honestly though there is a build that is pretty op that includes double anvil I’ve seen played and it absolutely destroys
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
The dwarves are a very different way of playing. Some would say boring or they don’t force the tempo of the game. Until they play against them with a competent player and find out they are making choices, but if you’re good they are all bad.
first
Indeed my friend!