Recording Classical Piano PART 2 - Refinements/Blumlein
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- čas přidán 22. 07. 2024
- Ever the tinkerer, Ben dives deeper into his standard approach of recording piano and gives his thoughts on the best way to arrange a Blumlein pattern.
www.buymeacoffee.com/insidepi... - Hudba
Thanks! Great video! Looking forward to the next one!
Great video! I really like the embedded humor. You’re becoming my favorite piano technician on CZcams!
I’m honored! There’s plenty more coming. If there are any topics you’re interested in I’ll take them for into consideration.
@@insidepianos Just an idea, but I’ve always been fascinated by the technician inspection process when I’ve purchased pianos in private sales. Without revealing too many trade secrets, it would be cool to know some of the major warning signs of a piano from the get go! For example, one of my biggest concerns when looking at a piano is the pinblock/pins/tuning stability. What would be your preferred method of making sure those sections are still doing their work?
@@russd.522 Thanks for that. I may speak to that in a video sometime. But in the meantime...I definitely bring along my tuner as ask if I can do a little tuning. Also, most pianos one ends up trying "out in the wild" have not been tuned. This allows any slipping pins to have slipped. If one wire of a unison is off by a semi-tone, say, you can be pretty sure it got there by slipping.
Great stuff! Thanks Ben
Ted, I actually thought of you when I did some of this. How are the recordings going over there?
thank you so much!
You’re so welcome!
Excellent video on how to get a nice sounding recording. Wish I had this information before because it took me tons of experimentation to come up with essentially the same thing as you describe in this video.
Thanks Regi! I tried to make the video that I wish I had had. SO MUCH experimentation. I’m heartened to know we converged on a similar approach. I’ve always appreciated the sound quality of your videos.
Thank you very much for sharing this incredible set up. I’ve been for recordings classic piano for about a year now as a hobby (albeit with pro guidance and very decent equipment) but I can learn a lot from your very thoughtful studies. Already looking forward to your next tutorial!
You are very welcome, Joachim! It's a tough topic. I'm glad you found my thoughts helpful.
Another great video, Ben.
Thanks, Perry! Hope you're doing great!
Thanks for the informational video
You’re most welcome, John!
Thanks for this video and the previous one - excellent advice, easy to understand and the examples are really helpful. I'm preparing to record a baby grand in a living room so I will be trying out your techniques. I'm definitely planning a mid/side configuration and also a pair of proximate mics closer to the strings. I was thinking to use small diaphram condensers for the proximate mics, but now am thinking about LDCs or ribbons. Now onto your mixing video!
I hope it’s all good food for thought for you!
Thank you! Excellent!
You’re very welcome!
@@insidepianos I used your tips to make a recording on the weekend. Turned out very well. I employed the idea of a mic under the piano which gave some nice bass. One problem I had was with my Shure SM57, which I used as a room mic. There was hiss. Had to turn up the gain so high. Maybe that was a mistake. Anyway, thanks again. I thoroughly enjoyed your presentation.
Glad you had some nice success! The "under mic" is a great way to add warmth to the sound.
The SM57 strength is in miking close-up sound sources while filtering out the sound sources not close to the mic (a trait of dynamic mics in general). This makes it a weak choice for a room mic. A condenser mic or ribbon mic will do better for you.
@@insidepianos Thank you so much!
Both these are great videos. Thanks for sharing! Did you get around to making the video comparing ribbons and condensers?
Thank you very much for such a useful information. How we can avoid sound of pedal in a recording process?
I have been listening to the most recordings of pianists, but pedal sound exists almost everywhere. Here it doesnot cut the melodie at least. Can you share knowledge about it, or maybe you have video which i havenot confronted before?
Best regards.
Hey Ben, I found your videos extremely helpful! I have one question, though: what microphone configuration would be the best if the piano lid was not completely open? The piano is placed in a room in which the piano sounds very bright, so for the audience, we usually open the lid, but not to its full extent. I would like your advice!
Great video! I’m curious if you have ever used Audix SCX25A-PS? Thanks!
Thank you for this. Enjoyed all your videos. Mic under the piano is a great suggestion!
Do you pan the in-piano mics left and right for stereo pair? Do you pan the mic under the piano or center it? Thanks!
I appreciate you watching my videos! Hopefully my latest release will answer all your mixing questions but let me know if you have more. And yes, mic underneath was a nice enhancement to the sound I’m able to get!
Hi Ben, thanks so much for this and for your first video in the series! I was wondering: what is your preferred preamp/ interface setup -- and especially one that would work with the Nuvo N8 stereo system? Would be interested to hear your thoughts!
I appreciate you watching, Theodora! I haven’t had the luxury of trying different high-end preamp’s but I am happy with my Focusrite ISA828 (with the optional interface card). It’s clean and natural, plus it has a gain boost that easily powers the ribbon mics in my arsenal.
Kudos on your work and experimenting with the difficult world of piano recording. I highly recommend you look into the “decca tail” arrangement for piano. For a real classical recording sound IMO, the goal is to emulate the piano as a point source where it sounds resonant and spacious but all notes come from the same area. Not all over the stereo field. Coincident techniques can be good for beginners and dealing with some technical issues but also look into a “faulkner array”. There is in fact a reason why almost all (with some exceptions) classical records use some form of a phase based stereo instead of intensity based.
Thanks so much, Alan. Feel free to point me to some recordings you’ve had a part of. I love refining my ear and miking technique.
Interesting info! Have u experimented with Ambisonic mics? In a use-case matching what you've done here, you could place it as a Blumlein, but rotate (in 3D!) the mics' virtual position in edit!
I haven't. They sound super versatile!
In a room like that, did you try removing the cover of the piano? That will give you the possibility of taking it more from above and with more "beam of light" effect. Test it.
great videos! Thank you! curious - been looking like crazy - and can't find any videos about the best mic set-up on a budget. I have $600 I can spend - an my C7 is getting brighter as it gets older and now its in a pretty bright room with vaulted ceilings to boot. HELP! The AT 4040's were suggested as well as the Lauten LA 120's. curious what your thoughts would be
oh - and I play classical -
Hi, and thanks for the kind words! I absolutely would like to do a video like the one you suggest. To be honest, I'll have to do some research to know what gear is the best at that price point. But I have a plan for how to go about that.
Regarding C7 brightness--definitely a thing: Do consider having a skilled technician come to voice the piano if you haven't done so already. You may not have to live with that brightness. To this very topic, I just worked on a C7 in my area. It dates from the late 80s. The original hammers had just become too worn to do anything effective with voicing. But I installed new Abel hammers. They have a set that's tailor-made for the C7. I have to say, it was one of the most dramatic transformations I've ever brought about on a piano. It truly sounds world class again. I charged a little over $4K for the procedure which included a complete regulation and new Renner shanks. So, not cheap, but if and when your piano needs it, it may be worth your while. I swear...I *wanted* that piano when it was done. :)
Maybe I got a little off track... but please keep on the look out for more recording content coming up! And I definitely heard your request.
And I meant to ask, what is the purpose of the recordings you hope to make? Video content perhaps?
Great video! I once tried to put a mic under my piano, but it sounded very 'boxy.' Perhaps it wasn't the appropriate mic. Do you have any thoughts on this? What is the purpose of the carpet underneath the piano? And perhaps most importantly, did you have to reverse the phase on the mic underneath? Thanks for putting such great content up here!
Hey Daniel, thank you for your nice words!
Mics placed under the piano can sound “boxy“ because, being on the other side of the strings, the metallic component of a piano’s sound is filtered out. I would say to play with the position, making sure that it is not right under the bridge. Also, be prepared to add EQ to perhaps soften the bass (which is emphasized by the proximity affect) and/or the treble to give it a bit of sparkle. Mic choice can always be a factor, but the main thing to keep in mind is that the mic underneath is an adjunct to the overall mix-just a single ingredient that adds warmth and sustain.
I wouldn’t say I was too scientific with the rug, but I often place one under the piano because it’s a big concert grand that is not in a recital hall. With a mic underneath the piano I’m especially happy to not have too much reflection going on down there.
Lastly, I always experiment with phase reversal w the under mic sometimes flipping and sometimes not. If I line the tracks up (having recorded a single forte note in the middle of the piano) I often find that it’s fine the way it is. But it’s best to check.
Good luck with your recordings and thanks for watching!!
interesting, I always thought that ribbons work best if they are basically vertical? something about the ribbon inside not working at its best otherwise
It's hard to tell precisely what the third mic does when the levels aren't normalized between the before/after clips in that single-note first part. Or are they? And is the difference in tone that stark?
Also, a red circle could be taken to mean that the mic is either being used or not being used.
Thought I'd share my initial thoughts with you.
But don't get it wrong, I'm here because I need a sound-reference for piano that I'm mixing right now, and I chose yours as that reference.
Beautiful playing, by the way.
I’m very flattered to be your reference. Re: the additional mic, I could have made the difference it makes more obvious but, rather, I included it the way I actually use it in my mix. It’s not “stark” or even necessary, but it IS appreciable because it adds depth and sustain. The red circle indicates when that mic is included in the mix.
I wonder if you’ve checked out my video on mixing. You might get a better sense there of what the mic below the piano adds, among other things.
Best of luck!
Do u need speakers with these mics ? Thank you
Do you need speakers with these mics ? Thank you
Surely the mic under the piano should be set in reverse phase! It's facing the board in the exact opposite way than the top mics. If not, please explain why.
Incidentally, you didn't clarify in your previous video and only “fleeted” through in this one: are the top mics cardioid or in figure of 8? If figure in figure of 8 can you explain why?
These are crucial details I though not being addressed in your presentation.
The only reason not to reverse phase for the under mic is if there’s a discrepancy in distance from the soundboard between those above and those below that allows the phase to correct itself. It’s an easy thing to check in the mixing phase, which sounds better.
If by the top mics you’re referring to my mid-side arrangement I suggest looking at a video or two that explain that technique. They abound. But in short, the mid mic is either in cardioid or fig8 and the side mic is always in fig8. I used cardioid for my mid mic but in a live acoustic would consider fig8.
@@insidepianos of course I didn’t ask for the mid mic. It’s the fig of 8 that is in question.
Also check phase in the mixing stage? Please do mention that you are multitracking it helps. The old skool is straight into stereo.
My mistake: the top mics are ribbon mics. Therefore they are inherently in a fig8 pattern like most ribbon mics. I didn’t chose them for their polar pattern but rather for their tone.
Regarding checking the phase polarity, most DAWs allow easy inversion thereof.
Hope that answers your questions.
Blumlein is the natural sounding choice
Naturalness is certainly Blumlein's virtue. You might enjoy that recording I referred in which I used Blumlein (plus room mics, plus a mic underneath). It's featured at the end of my video entitled "The Most Beautiful Piano". It's one of my favorite piano recordings I've made from the standpoint, and (more importantly) the playing is gorgeous.