My 6-Valve Cavalry Trombone!
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- čas přidán 25. 08. 2024
- The first video in the serious on this excitingly odd instrument.
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“I dont know what anythings doing” -James Morrison
Yess, you watched the video
Lol
That videos great. We need more of him playing random stuff
After I watched the video I searched up cavalry trombone and got this
???)
Is this what you get when you ask a woodwind player to design a brass instrument?
Lol!
I don't know how to play any valved instruments so I bet this would be easier for me to learn and I think that's who it was designed for. Us dumb trombone players.
@@johnelwer3633 I am also a trombone player, and while this looks interesting, I say the fewer fingers I am required to use, the better. 😄
Mmm yes, needs more knobs to play with
Or maybe that one person who LOVED playing the recorder when they were kids (so yeah basically a woodwind player)
My guess is that this exists solely to save the back of a horse’s head from being smacked by a slide. The fact that valves correspond to side positions and not to any other known brass valve fingerings means it’s really truly intended for trained trombonists and not baritone or euphonium players covering trombone parts. Super specific.
or you could just hace the normal 3 valve system because most trombonists know it already.
@@yaboi-km2qn yeah I learned the valve combos in 10 minutes
@@yaboi-km2qn you could but not if you overthink it like the guy who designed this did.
Uh, he called it a Cavalry trombone, as in played from or on horseback. Was it used as a bugle, or as a band instrument? I am still left with an overall position and with a loud, resounding question of WHY?
I've got it! When Adolphe Sax awakened and found himself Shanghied off to New Zealand he stumbled into his workshop, and a few untraceable* hours later, stumbled out with this PDQ Bach-ish instrument(?) swearing off alcohol forever.
* think "Close Encounters of the Weird Kind"
This is a prime example of "the enemy of good is better."
I perish having to clean that thing. Seems like it would be one of those where you'd always miss one of the slides, or crooks, or whatever, and never the same one.
The saxophone truly was a one-hit wonder.
The Saxhorn was pretty important, it led to the development of instruments like the Euphonium and Alto Horn.
I guess, since that's the only instrument he invented thats still in use, but he did make improvements on the bass clarinet and a few others, and those improved versions are now the ones primarily in use. The trombone he made was a disaster though.
Baritone horn, flugelhorn, and Mellophone are also saxhorns, are they not?
@@cilantro5221 tenor horns and baris are pure saxhorns right?
@@tenor1190 I dont believe so, saxhorns were used as the basis for baritones, tenor horns, flugelhorns, and tubas. I would say they are descendants of the saxhorn rather than pure saxhorns.
Fascinating.... my brain hurts trying to imagine how that works...
That thing actually sounds pretty good, much better than expected. You have a lovely tone!
This looks like a wonderful way to troll your enemy at the band's xmas party. Get them hammered, give them this curiosity and tell them to play Carnival of Venice. Don't forewarn them though. Let them figure that out for themselves. Oh what fun that would be.
From a woodwind player's perspective, this video is basically seven and a half minutes of Trent Hamilton listing the disadvantages of being a brass player
the one "beauty" of this instrument is that it has none of the "stuffiness" of the valve trombone in that it tries to maintain a smooth natural singular curve to each note, like on a slide trombone.
And yet, it still sounds like a trombone! Fascinating stuff.
I didn't know that it was possible to hear resistance, but listening to the scales, I could hear the sound change.
I never knew such a thing existed. Very interesting. Thanks for sharing it with us.
This horn is exactly what the US military would spec for a trombone.
This would seem to have the advantage that each "position" can get individually tuned. On regular 3-valve instruments, tuning is full of compromises. Many assume that the 1st valve whole step, 2nd valve half step, and 3rd valve one and a half steps are exactly that. But not always. For example, if you press the 2nd valve from an open horn, you might lower it a half step. But if you are already pressing the 1st valve, that has effectively lengthened the horn that the 2nd valve is being applied to. So, the 2nd valve won't lower quite a half step from that point. Or conversely, if you considered the 2nd valve already down, the 1st valve won't lower quite a whole step. This means the 1st and 2nd valve designed to lower 1 + 1/2 steps, won't lower it quite that much. That is, unless you tune it that way. And then either valve used alone won't lower the pitch quite enough. So, 3 valve instruments are full of tuning compromises which is a big reason for things like 1st and 3rd valve dynamic tuning slides on trumpets.
Just gotten my 3-valve cavalry trombone a few weeks ago.
I wasn't sure how to hold it, but this confirms my suspision.
I'm a sousaphone player but this instrument has a baritone mouthpiece, it will take a few tries ;)
Having just started learning the in's and outs of the trumpet with its valve block, knuckles and slides, this is a really intriguing and thought provoking instrument, I hope to see one some day. Play testing it would be fun
One advantage to this valve arrangement is that each valve has its own tuning slide which means that each valve can be individually tuned without affecting any of the others. This eliminates the problem that typical (non-compensating) valve instruments have in that the instrument plays sharp when multiple valves are depressed at the same time. Having said that, it seems like this system pays a large price in complication and difficulty in tone production to solve a problem that is pretty easily dealt with by means of tuning triggers or by simply lipping the notes into pitch.
I saw one of these once that had a separate bell for each valve! Calling that one unique would be the understatement of the century!
I mean, for all that is clearly wrong with this thing, it sounds alright.
I see no advantage to this design at all. More complicated? Yup. Extra tubing? sure somehow. Difficult for existing brass players? why not. replacement parts? who needs them? What a terrible terrible design.
Still want one
I absolutely agree with this
That's pretty much exactly how I feel about it.
It's an adolphe sax instrument... None of them are intuitive besides for the saxophone... And that's only because someone else fixed the saxophone for him lol
probably more in tune? every single positions can be tuned separately, without effecting others through combinations.
also Serpent and Ophicleide players back then would probably find it more intuitive I guess?
@@richkoenig830 What's confusing about saxhorns, with their conventional 3-valve arrangement? He pretty much invented the modern bass clarinet also.
@Hiroko Kueh "Tuning" on a serpent is more of a suggestion than a locked-in pitch anyhow. As for the ophicleide, it didn't have a standardized fingering system either, so this instrument probably wouldn't have bothered them as much as it does modern players.
It sounds like when I first learned to play trombone, I had to translate tuba fingerings to slide positions. For a long time that was faster than trying to think in trombone.
I love seeing all your brass instruments hanging up in the background. It looks like an amazing collection you've built up. There are so many weird and wonderful brass instruments and you seem to have most of them.
Thanks for this brave showing. I can handle only one moving part on a trombone. (Setting aside lips, tuning slide and condensate relief valve.) I appreciate your effort in this regard.
as a woodwind player, if you try to play the turkish or persian ney, it also hurts your brain too, because the finger holes are organized chromatically instead of diatonically. Although this is perhaps a bigger struggle, because thinking of open or second valve being lower than first valve is freaky. I should note, that when I first tried playing slide trombone, I kept getting mixed up because I kept associating valves with slide positions too.
Similar concept to the clarinet, one key for each of my twenty-four fingers.
I wonder if the resistance and stuffiness could be relieved a bit with some attention to valve alignment?
You'll always need that length of tubing to make that pitch, but it doesn't have to be quite so much harder with each valve you have to blow the air through (twice).
Trent Hamilton, is the epitome of HORNAMANIA, in full swing, a genius of re-inventing the horn, good job, Sir.......
Imagine trying a design like this to an instrument starting off with the length of a tuba? I play tuba. Actually, I can't even imagine that. It would be more like something in a nightmare...
Yup, the fingering makes perfect sense when put in context of slide positions - however it looks like ALIEN has joined the section.
This is gonna be a cool one
Interesting instrument...great explanation!
With the way the valves override each other, I can’t help but wonder if the original intention was to play with all the valves pushed down, then lift up whichever was necessary to get the desired pitch. That would make it, in some ways, more like a woodwind fingering system where the default is having all the keys down…sorta.
Just a thought. Never said it was a GOOD system. =P
You'd end up getting cramp in your fingers if you had to continually hold down all the valves.
As James Morrison would say: “I don’t know what anything is doing”
Truly amazing! Thanks.
The tenor and soprano normaphones are trombone & trumpet/saxophone hybrids. From the 50s and basically for woodwind players who want to play pure brass instruments. Lol
What an awesome instrument!
Very interesting thanks for the cool motion picture.
This is the first of your videos recommended to me in a while and holy shit you’ve lost a lot of weight. You look good for it!!!
this is such a cool instrument !!! love from the US
This actually is kind of a good idea I think... Would it not be possible to play a lot faster material than you would be able to play on a traditional brass instrument? Cause it's kind of like a woodwind how each finger controls a different note?
Idk just an idea
Yes, you could potentially play faster in some instances, but the amount of effort it would take to re-learn all your fingering from scratch is so much that it would probably take less effort to improve your general dexterity anyway.
It would feel a whole lot more like a woodwind if the _shortest_ valve position selected took precedence, and the downstream valves either mattered very little, or not at all. Having the "look ma no hands" position being the _longest_ one is arse-backward too. There are definite advantages to the builder in setting it up this way, but it makes it much harder to wrap your head around.
I get it. The valves kinda simulate slide positions, and make it easier to play while riding a horse.
If the valves worked in the opposite priority -- longer ones take precedence -- and no valves represented 1st position instead of 7th, this would be a lot less brain-breaking for a trombonist. I can see why it was done the "wrong" way for the advantages in setting up the tubing, though.
I don't think this was just a matter of trying not to hit the guy (or horse) in front of you. That would have been accomplished reasonably easily with a doubled slide, which was a known and fairly simply implemented technique in the early 19th century. I think it had more to do with not having a weight extended in front of the player, bouncing up and down as they try to ride and play at the same time. The valved instrument is shaped such that it could be strapped to the player, greatly reducing the worries of it shifting around while trying to play it.
I haven’t visited your channel for a couple years and I’m so impressed with how much weight you’ve lost Trent keep up the good content bro?
Even though it's terrible to play it sounds quite nice.
Beautifully played at the end. What a strange instrument.
Adolph Sax was a Belgian inventor not New Zealand ,Agatha Christie's Poirot is a Belgian detective living in London . that is why the main theme to the Poirot series highlights sax music .
Pretty sure I saw a character from Whoville play this in a cartoon once
Adolphe was constantly pursuing perfect intonation. The complexity of playing it outweighed the intonation.
It sounded flat in some notes. It could need a valve job. It is a museum piece.
Since this is a cavalry trombone, was it meant to be played on horseback? That must have been interesting.
Ngl, I'd actually love to play one, just for the experience, and to have an alternative excuse for not doing anything, lol. Very interesting!!
Cool concept, but it would need a kicker valve for certain notes, since not every 3rd (etc.) position is the same 3rd (etc.) position.
fascinating.
Adolphe As was not from New Zealand. He was from Belgium.
Bravo! Just when you think you have seen all the weird ones (horns that is; not CZcams hosts...). Time to expand the wall to: "The Wall of Many More Things" Cheers
I’m confused by your comment that the fundamental pitch is found by pressing down no valves or slide all the way in. Because to get the fundamental pitch in French Horns or Mellophone don’t you need the first valve/rotor? Or does the concert F/C count as the fundamental pitch?
Looks like a plumber's nightmare.
If you're using this as a toilet then you've got bigger problems.
@@TrentHamilton 😂😂
@@TrentHamilton LOL
Really nice for that instrument!
put it to use for pre-warming your bath towels
this is the coolest instrument ive ever seen its so unique and odd and makes no sense
beautiful
i can only imagine how much work it would take to clean it
So in a way, it's similar to the concept of the double and triple horn, but without any valves, instead just the re-routing pistons.
No, not really :P
I blame my sub-standard American education for me not knowing until this video that New Zealand was a part of Belgium (really would've thought The Netherlands for some reason)😉
Oh you look a lot healthier now. 🆒
Adolphe Sax was half genius, half madman.
What a bizarre instrument. Unsure if I missed you mentioning it in the video, but if you didn't: Does the ridiculous valve arrangement at least mean it is more in tune than your average brass instrument, or is it needlessly convoluted just for giggles?
To avoid a compensating system's added weight and complexity with its longer valves and extra plumbing, we add... more valves and more plumbing
Considering that in a standard trombone, you are holding the tuning slide in your hand, the only excuse for playing a trombone out of tune is that you can't tell the difference between in tune and out of tune. Or you have a composer that has no idea how a trombone works and is writing things that are impossible to play well.
The New-Zeelander Adolphe Sax 😀?!
Yes, he invented lots of instruments that can be used to perform the great music written by famous classic New Zealander composers like J S Bach, W A Mozart, and also later New Zealander composers like J P Sousa.
I don't know where you heard he was a New Zealand inventer but he was actually born in Belgium in 1814, he studied at The Royal Conservatoire of Brussels before moving to Paris in 1842; he wasn't from New Zealand at all.
Wooosh
@@TrentHamilton God dammit Trent hahaha
@@TrentHamilton HHAHAHahahaha.
I want a 2 person 6 horn band...
Oh, man. The hands are backwards from where any woodwind player would place them. That makes it really hard for someone who has learned a bit of woodwind fingerings to learn these fingerings. Making the whole instrument in a mirror image would fix that. But then the bell would be on the wrong side for anyone who regularly plays the trombone. Probably shows off the foolishness of that Adophe Sax from New Zealand. The one from Belgium would never do such a silly thing. ;)
Is this also how a 6-valved Viennese tuba works?
Good job dude
I’ve seen oil refineries with less piping. Pardon my ignorance, but why bother when you have nice traditional slide trombones with which to annoy the listeners?
Adolphe Sax was Belgian !
How would it get half notes with only 6 valves and no combinations?
Ok so
I know you don’t like woodwinds but…
For me…
Trombone mouth piece/bassoon mouthpiece on bass clarinet?
But why is it called a Trombone? because of the sound?
that looks like it would be a pain to clean that out!
What's the instrument with about 5 bells on the wall of many things?
How many items are in your "modest and minimalist" collection, Trent?;) I feel a bit better about having 8 horns. Also, you said "famous NZ inventor Adolphe Sax", I had to doubt myself and google it again just in case LOL
I have 8!
I think it's so cool and so dumb at the same time. I want one
what was the piece he played at the end?
What piece did you play at the end sound nice :0
At what point is it not a trombone
What’s the lowest note?
Where do your intros come from?
Sorry Trent Adolphe Sax is not New Zeland ,he is Belgium inventor.
duh
What, no carnival of venice this time? ha ha
Did you just say Adolphe Sax was a "new zealand" instrument inventor???
Why tho
Thats a cool horn!
Been watch a few of your vids recently.
You lost some weight dude!
Dang bro you lost weight. Congrats!
Sax wasn't a Kiwi: like Hercule Poirot, he was Australian.
Not Austrian? 😂
Whats the name of the tune he played at the end of the video?
Sax's serenade in IF major
@@marten594 thank you :)
Cavalry like on a horse?
No, cavalry like what it's called when you climb a ladder.
Красный Сарафан
Thanks translating from google: why comment 'red sundress' on a video about a trombone?
@@wiebemartens1030 Сарафан (sarafan) is a Russian folk woman’s dress, in red colour. That is a title of Russian song by Varlamov .
@@wiebemartens1030 czcams.com/video/a6pJ7yakV4s/video.html
Bb is not aloud on this instrument
Do you know this trombone originaly was build with seven bells, one for each valve?
Is that where the term to "knock 7 bells" out of an opponent comes from?
Wait really?! You mean the something before the Sacbut?
Cavalry trombone, eh? I see no self-respecting horse allowing anyone carrying that thing to get on its back 🐴.