Britishmuzzleloaders in South Africa: Part 3f - Myths and Misconceptions with Col Mike Snook MBE PhD
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- čas přidán 31. 01. 2022
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Part TWO of our chat with the good Colonel.
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Rob....Cannot emphasize enough how much I enjoy the effort you put into the historical aspects of everything you do. 15 votes per day to you for the GUNDIE. Keep up the good work, please keep moving forward. Godspeed sir......
Thank is very kind Mark! Thank you.
So much clearer! I'm sure you have thanked Colonel Snook, but I hope he knows how thankful we, your listeners, are.
I have indeed! Cheers.
I'm glad that I had a chance to read both "How Can Man Die Better" and "Like Wolves on the Fold" before this presentation. You could see as Col Snook was describing the battle that he wasn't in his study but back on the battlefield watching the events unfold. Now if we could just get Hollywood to redo both films. And as always, a well presented topic.
Both great books!
I'm always ready to report for duty when britishmuzzleloaders posts a vid.
Great!
Just when you think you’ve run out of things to watch a beautiful present arrives … Joy of Joys 👍🇬🇧💪
Very kind!
This is a fantastic video! The earlier parts of your series perfectly set up this more 'academic' perspective. It is fantastic to see your conclusions from the earlier videos actualized in some sense vis-a-vis a conversation with a professional well-versed in military decision making. I can't overstate just how impressive your visualizations are, especially for this video but for all of the others in this series too. You know exactly when to add a graphic and what it should be, and that's a rare talent indeed! I think watching them in the order -- and in the (quite literal) style -- you first presented them much helps to clarify the battle.
It is clear to me that your guest has a very developed understanding of the battle, and that you have a very clear understanding of what information you are trying to extract from your counterpart. It's exceedingly challenging to ask the right questions during an interview, let alone about an event that is fundamentally 'questionable' or 'confusing', so I just want to re-emphasize that you did a great job developing a holistic perspective of the battle and its less well-understood moments without getting too nit-picky. I know this is part 3, and most watching sort of 'get it' by now, but even if only from a filmmaking perspective it is very satisfying to see that you do indeed get it enough to 'get' what you need from your guest.
My one criticism would be the audio quality, especially of the guest. I am but a poor American, and thicker British accents fall victim to audio compression more readily than what I'm used to. It's too much to ask for manual subtitles but perhaps you could ask your guest to record their own audio and use that instead? Synchronization would be a problem but since you don't talk much during the video I think it could go a long way toward making these sorts of videos more 'listenable'.
Keep up the great work!!
Thank you! Though it was never the intent to review the battle from beginning to end. The preceding parts did that. Rather I hope that these later episodes will shed light on the more "misunderstood" or "misinterpreted" aspects of the battle. Cheers!
Fascinating , like listening to two knowledgeable mates sat round the table in the pub . The ammunition "myth" is interesting & Col Snook is so correct , the survivors coming back had to have a good explanation to explain such a failure. Thanks Rob and Col Mike . So much of what most people "know" is linked to the two films I suspect.
Agreed. The films are what they are.
I was just wondering when we would see this the other day, and here we are. Once again, it has been a real pleasure to see how the channel has grown continually in terms of the content presented.
Thank you kindly!
Thank you, Rob, for the wealth and clarity of information.
Though mostly for the good Colonel coming out and telling us the way it is!.
britishmuzzleloader i want to thank you for such a enjoyable video also to col. snook thank you i first learned of your channel through capandball and have seen you refered by forgotten weapons i enjoy all three a wealth of information but i got to give it to you your stash wins out of three ischell from west virginia
Cheers! Glad you enjoyed it!
Just wanted to say before I found your channel I was always looking for information on old firearms you and your team are doing a great job thank you
Joshua
Haha! I wish I had a team sometimes..... But thank you!
Amazing effort, informative AND entertaining! Thank you
Thank you! The Colonel was very obliging!
Thank you Rob and Col. Snook - appreciated. What a great series.
Cheers!
Just watched this again......Such brilliant analysis!
Cheers! One more part coming!
Mike Snook is one of the few authors to not go easy on Durnford, and for good reason. Its still refreshing that he tells it like it is, in contrast to most authors who seek to blame only Chelmsford.
Snook is quite right, of course. Pulleine had orders to act on the defensive, and Durnford was ordered to bring his men up to the camp in lieu of the camp being short of men. Durnford had no orders to do anything except simply that.
No Zulus were ever seen advancing in the direction of Chelmsford, quite the opposite in fact, and nor was it a mere recon attempt by Durnford either. As Snook explained, you do not carry out recon with all your force including yourself. No doubt if Vause's troop didn't already go back towards Rorkes to assist accompanying the baggage section to Isandlwana then Durnford likely would have sent that troop out after the Zulus alongside his other 4 troops, the rocket battery and the NNC. There can be no doubt that Durnford ordered a full blown attack on the 'retiring' Zulus, directly flouting the orders given to the camp to act on the defensive.
I'll say it if Snook doesn't. The biggest fatal tactical decisions at Isandlwana were due to Durnford.
So many aspects go into the outcome, for sure.
Indeed. I am of the opinion that had Durnford remained in camp to reinforce the numbers, then even if the Zulus DID still attack that day (Durnford of course poked the wasps nest and brought the battle on ) then a tighter more concentrated defensive fire position close to the camp would have had a better chance of survival and may have held out until Chelmsford returned and sandwiched the Zulus.
Cheers.
@@lyndoncmp5751 We'll be talking about that in Part 3..... Cheers.
An example of excellent informative quality video. Was riveted to this
Hazzar hazzar
Quality content keep up the great work
Bestest from Scotland
Cheers!
Another great video and a fascinating discussion. Thanks to you and Col Snook for putting this together.
Thanks!
NICE!!! Been waiting for this one!
Cheers!
Splendid. Great insights here. Never enough for us thirsting for such quality material. Thanks, Rob, and Colonel S.!
Cheers! It was a great conversation with more to come!
Fascinating and insightfull, a great work. Thanks to Rob and the Colonel.
Cheers!
Until today, I didn't know I needed this video. Thank you.
Wonderful!
Excellent discussion! And indeed thank You very much for re-recording the audio! All is very appreciated.
Cheers!
This is outstanding, thank you Col and Rob
Cheers, V!
Fascinating. If the cinema could do as well there would be queues at the doors again.
Cheers!
Thank you, gentlemen. Superb.
Cheers!
This is a great series
Thank you!
You are simply the best. Awesome work in every video
Thank you so much 😀
That was EXTREMELY nice of Col Snook. Thank you very much!
Indeed!
Well the extra effort to rerecord and edit was very worth it, I have bought two of the Lt Colonels books on this subject on the basis of this exploration of the Zulu war. Thank you gentlemen!
You are most welcome! Glad to hear you enjoyed it. More to come too....
Fantastically interesting talk, many thanks.
Cheers!
Congrats on the Gundie award for most dapper Rob. You have done Canada proud.
Thank you kindly! It was all down to C&Rsenal for nominating the Channel and all the wonderful viewers who voted!
Excellent episode.
Thank you!
Another great episode.
Thank you!
Another great video Rob.
Cheers!
Nicely done!
Cheers!
Brilliant as per usual!✌🏼
Thank you!
Extremely interesting, thank you!
Cheers!
Hats off to the good Coronal for putting forth the effort to redo the bad parts. K have read, several years ago, the ammo boxes were locked and nobody could find the keys. That by the time tools were used to get the boxes open it was too late. I wonder if the source the Coronal read from is the origin or a different book? The 1964 book came out the year I was born and I am 57 now so that is it's age.
He certainly covered the whole ammunition piece.
An excellent informative video.
Thank you.
although making a correct canvas bag is impressive, having 400 rounds of 577/450 on hand for the test is amazing. bravo sir.
Well, weighted appropriately... full of rocks, actually.
What a dapper gentleman. Yes very dapper indeed
Haha! I see what you did there...
Very interesting detective mystery.
Yessir!
Great to hear a military man who has studied a significant number of battles and conflict adjacent situation assess, it makes perfect sense and marries with my understanding from study of history and psychology.
The film makes a big thing of the ammunition story too - as an aside knowing that QMs are ex CSM/RSMs is a mark of a military man(wisely the British army puts men well aware of a squaddie's stories in this role).
Great point, that.
As I was watching this, a thought came to my mind:
What if Rob and Colonel Snook did a scene by scene breakdown of the Battle of Isandhlwana, as depicted in “Zulu Dawn?”
That would be fascinating to see!
Aloha 😊🤙🏼
As in how accurate it is or is not?
Not a criticism but great product placement of Col. Snook’s books!
Well, when you're a fan,....
Спасибо за видео!
Cheers!
Good job .go ahead
Cheers!
Hi from Syracuse NY USA brother
Hello!
Second time I've watched this. Makes a lot of sense.
I can see the ammo bag being a very sensible addition to ammo distribution. The modern "Brecon" ammo pouch, down one's smock, isn't much different.
A lot of Zulus were killed to get their victory. Most must have been killed by bullet. The organised withdrawal would have taken copious amounts of ammunition too. To me ammunition probably wasn't the big deal, though all soldiers get anxiety when their pouches get low. Ammunition supply is everyone's priority and no one is going to intervene in its flow.
The Zulus earned every bit of their victory, for it came at huge cost.
A question that cannot be answered is would the Zulus have been able to push home a victory against the whole British Force?
Isandlwana was indeed a costly victory.
I very much hope to soon see the day that Rob, in full kit, is directing a barrage of artillery from astride a tank.
That would take a bit of doing....
👍 to the Colonel
Cheers!
Well done! Col Snook's book on the battle is persuasive. A bit harsh on Durnford but his actions were indeed the reason the Zulus attacked that day. Chelmsford should get most of the blame because his earlier decisions left the column spilt into several parts with each unable to quickly support the other. The last actor in this debacle is Pulleine. For some reason authors tend to give him a pass. We could criticize him for not putting the camp in a better defensive posture, sending his 8:05 message notably lacking in details, deploying his limited forces to far flung positions and not anticipating likely Zulu moves once their army was deployed. Day late, dollar short.
Snook is correctly harsh on Durnford. It was, after all, Durnford who made the fatal decisions that day.
The orders to Pulleine were to act on the defensive. Durnfords orders were to get to the camp at once, as the camp was short of men. No more than that. Durnford blatantly disregarded not only his own orders but those given to Pulleine.
Had Durnford did as he was ordered then even if the Zulus did attack that day (not likely) then had he defended at the camp instead of the donga it might have held out until Chelmsford returned.
Pulleine, you will recal, had the 24th Foot standing to right in front of the tents during the morning alarm, until Durnford arrived and upset the apple cart.
Finally, at the time Pulleine sent that dispatch to Chelmsford it wasn't seen as a crucial matter as yet, and of course the Zulus did not begin their attack until several hours later, by which time no communication to Chelmsford would have been able to save the situation, once Durnford did what he chose to do.
Snook, rightly, fingers Durnford as the main culprit tactically at Isandlwana itself.
Glad you enjoyed the discussion! We'll be talking alternate tactical options in part three.
Not surprising that a piece of equipment that had only been adopted in 1877 wouldn't be readily available less than two years later.
A possible alternative would have been to beg, buy or steal an extra haversack for each man. Then when preparing to go into action each rifleman could draw ten more packets(100 rounds) and load them into the extra haversack thus more than doubling each man's ammo load. Or during the action, a designated runner could carry up to 4 loaded bags from the supply train at need.
Whatever the method, the ammunition got out to the line....
If you could get your hands on one would you ever do a review of one of those Australian international arms lee enfield reproduction rifles or are they not worth the time
Have no idea on what you are referring to... I have all the Lee Enfields I need and they are real. No need for a reproduction, sorry.
whata dapper video
I see what you did there...
Rob, I hope you cover two more areas, with Col. Snook 1) What did the British Army find when they returned to the battlefield 2) What changes in the British Army after the battlefield and before the next series of battles.
We'll cover some of that in the next episode (your second question)... the first is answered by reading his book... 😀 Not much to "misinterpret" in the aftermath... a field of dead, in the dark.. Cheers!
@@britishmuzzleloaders On the part of what was found on the battlefield I was more thinking about evidence like paper work as-in written orders. Used to finger out what happened.
@@EdAtoZ So much was burnt or scattered to the winds in the aftermath... While there are written orders that survive, they are certainly isolated examples.
@@britishmuzzleloaders I did think much would have survived. The histories that I remember don't explain much how the battle move for move were reconstructed. When the British Army counter offensive happen (I think a few year later), do you know how much of that was based on lessons learned from lsandlwana.
The right horn must have come around and over the saddle when the firing line was still some distance out. The would account for Smith Dorrien disappearing and the retiring companies not making it to the ammo wagons. Even 100yards from the wagons would be too much ground to make and open boxes if the Zulus had already crested the saddle at any speed.
SD and Essex must have been opening boxes giving to runners then the surprise over the saddle. Both then rode off. Naturally the saddle Zulus would have made for tents and wagons for the cover and the booty ,, and probably at some speed.
Perhaps this magnet left the way open for just that few minutes for fugitives like SD and Essex
Perhaps.
Maybe Durnford did indeed try to hold the road to Rorkes drift … inadvertently his position would have forced the Zulu right away from him and into the cover of the camp. There must have been some sort of rear picket behind the mountain? Is there any information on who was tasked with this ? Is it possible for a picket to have climbed onto Isandlwhana or is it unscalable ?
@@davepangolin4996 A piquet is just that... It's not going to stop anything. Even if there was, who was going to go and fight there, once the Zulu right horn was discovered? Everyone was already committed. We'll be talking about alternate tactical options in Part 3.
I was hoping to get some insight about when the British realized the game was over? With Durnford falling back and the battalion withdrawing towards the saddle do the British still believe in victory?
I'm sure it was a gradual realization... Battle's going OK, Battle takes a turn for the worse, battle becomes a battle of survival, battle lost.
I just got a pith helmet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I feel so like I want to go fight some Zulus! Just out of curiosity, did the British wear the fancy 24th foot emblem on their helmets during Isandlwana?
They did not.
That mustache is a wonder of nature
Haha!
1:32:30 Would you prefer a satchel (canvas ammo purse worn over one shoulder) to the bib-like canvas ammunition bag?
The ammunition bag changed style later in the era to a vest like arrangement that had the pockets on the sides... for good reason.
@@britishmuzzleloaders I hope you can demonstrate such a bag for comparison.
A friend used a 100 year-old British shotgun cartridge satchel of leather and canvas to hold big Snider .577 cartridges. Hung over the shoulder and on the hip with a flap covering a cinched-up opening large enough to get your hand in to retrieve cartridges, but narrow enough to keep most of the cartridges in if you fell over. Stylish!
@@sejembalm Maybe when I get to the Spion Kop parts of the series.
We also see this seniority conflict between Chard and Bromhead in the movie Zulu, was that a problem in Rorke's Drift as well?
@Coll Maxwell in the movie they compare the dates they recieved their comissions (Chard and Bromhead) maybe the time they began their service was relevant as well.
@Coll Maxwell Interesting, what makes Victorian armies so different from our modern counterparts is that they presumed the higher ranks were always more competent, as of today there is a chain of command and everyone is expected to his own job, not that that wasn't the case in the 19th century.
Not something that had any effect on the outcome of the battle, no.
@@britishmuzzleloaders Thank you! Amazing work as always.
If only the British had thought to employ their secret weapon: Put this colonel up on Isandhlwana with a loudspeaker and order "cease fire." The Zulus would have surrendered in a half hour, anything to stop the torture of having to listen to him. But then where's the Victorian honour and glory in that?
Yeah.
Hi, I sculpt Miniatures and was wondering if you could give me advise on uniform details and weapons etc, I would like to sculpt some Indian mutiny miniatures, 28mm size.... Thanks...
That's a very large and broad topic... You'll have to be more specific.
@@britishmuzzleloaders Not sure where to start, something like a regiment form each side...? i have found images of uniforms on the internet but they don't seem to show the back side of the uniform for some reason.
How many rounds could probably be fired before blackpower fowling would becoming an issue without having to stop and clean barrels and chambers?
How long is a piece of string?.... I've fired dozens of rounds in a row without issue. Fouling is managed through the beeswax wad in every cartridge. Fouling build up depends on weather and humidity.
Hello where i can buy a helmet like this
On the inter web.
Good video. Lol
Cheers!
Have you purchased a reproduction musket from Heritage Firearms? If so, would you know the difference in quality and value from that of a Pedersoli reproduction? I’ve heard many different things about those rifles, and you would certainly be most knowledgeable on the subject.
Never heard of Heritage Firearms. Sorry.
@@britishmuzzleloaders I made an error! The company is called Military Heritage. I'd link them, but CZcams seems to delete my comment. That's probably why you've not heard of them. The company I was talking about seems to cater to an American / Canadian market, however, so I'm sure that's a factor.
A better phrased version of my question would be what are the most noticeable differences between that of an Indian reproduction and a more expensive Italian reproduction rifle?
Rick Beato of creaky firearms.
Haha!
Why is is labelled '3f'? Typo?
Because its the sixth episode of the "Isandlwana" part of the series.
He’s not wrong on Quartermasters..
No, he isn't.
Ok, I'm confused, Rob isn't wearing a uniform.
Haha!
Having read Washing of the Spears, in South Africa in 1978, how much more of Morris's work is less than factual?
I can't comment fully, but the greater history of the War is generally quite good if I'm not mistaken.
@@britishmuzzleloaders Thank You and I really enjoy your work.
:)
👍
Seeing britishmuzzleloaders dressed in modern clothing seems weird. =)
I know.
If I were a cynical chap I might say in damning Smith Dorrien with faint praise there’s a faint echo of French.
@Coll Maxwell not the first and certainly not the last.
@Coll Maxwell interesting info, cheers.
Perhaps.
Watch you tube channel ,Mark an Sam after work, .303 at 3000 yards with volley sights
Yes, a good demo, with appropriate adjustments made.
I thought Durnford set off to support Chelmsford who he thought would come under attack from the main Zulu army - which he thought was heading away from Isandlwana, possibly in the direction of Chelmsford? So not really an independent offensive action but yes, probably a bit of glory seeking.
PS - is it just me or is Col Mike looking a bit like the Duke of Wellington? (is that a bust of the great man on the table??)
That is what Durnford defenders wish to believe and Durnford himself appears to have used it as an excuse to ride out. However, two points somewhat nullify that.
1. Durnford already told Pulleine soon after his arrival and before the report of Zulus retiring came in that he wasn't going to remain in the camp. He had already decided to ride out.
2. The Zulus were reported retiring to the northeast. Not in the direction of Chelmsford. Chelmsford was southeast. Nor were any Zulus observed moving south across the plain towards Chelmsford.
Coll Maxwell
Yes I agree. Your defense of Durnford goes on and on.
Durnfords orders were to move to the camp at once with all his men. He had no orders to abandon the camp with his men, no orders to link up with Chelmsford. His orders were specific. The camp at Isandlwana was left short of men. Durnford was thus ordered to bring his men at once to the camp. The camp was ordered to act on the defensive. There were no counter orders.
The Zulus were not retiring in all directions. They were not retiring to the south. They were not retiring to the southeast. They were not retiring to the southwest. They were retiring away from the direction Chelmsford was. This is all irrelevant anyway as Durnford already flouted his orders and told Pulleine he was not going to remain in camp BEFORE reports of retiring Zulus came in. Durnford also flouted Pulleines orders to act on the defensive when he tried, and failed, to get two companies of the 24th Foot to go off on the attack with him.
You are defending the indefensible. Durnford made poor tactical blunders at Isandlwana.
Coll Maxwell,
Lol, I have over a dozen books on the Anglo Zulu War thanks, including those dubious ones by the likes of Quantrill and Lock, Greaves, Morris etc. You know, the typical Durnford apologists.
Snook and Knight are by far the premier authors on the subject.
All great soldiers attract great soldiers... Yes, that was the Iron Duke.