Greg Koukl - Does God "Hate Sin, but Love the Sinner"?
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- čas přidán 21. 01. 2013
- Greg Koukl of Stand to Reason answers the question, "Does God 'hate sin but love the sinner?'"
#StandtoReason #Apologetics #Christianity
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Would like to know what the thumbs downers are thinking. Like you said Greg, God hates "the sin" that "sinners" do. And to prove it, he punishes the "sinner". What do those that disagree think is going on here?
They can’t handle it.
It wouldn't appear that God's hatred of Esau was in virtue of Esau's rebellion since God hated him before Esau was even born ! This makes me tend to believe that when the Bible speaks of 'Hate ' ( or variants ) that it isn't necessarily to mean that God 'despises' the particular person in question but rather it is expressing God's preference .
The difference between God judging and us judging, is only God can rightly judge. God knows the heart of a man and his story. God would know the evil that man do whether it's from a wicked heart or just a consequence of oppressive experiences, and that the man would change as he experience new good experiences in life. And we don't.
Im not a sinner. We live in a carnal body and we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God but being a sinner is someone who lives a lifestyle of sin. People that live in sin and have enmity towards and will never repent God does not know and the wrath of God abides on them. His children are all those who have repented of their sins and are no longer living in sin and God loves all of His children and will lose none. We can be God's children and still struggle with our weaknesses of the flesh but thats not the same as being an outright sinner. God does not hate his children but loves us. God loves the entire world but He also knows who will and who won't answer the call to become his children. Thats how it works.
God hates the sinner ONLY in the sense of the sinner that is unrepentant, and continues to sin even after hearing the Good News. Those who are completely given over to their reprobate lifestyle. He takes ZERO pleasure in punishing the wicked before giving them a chance to turn to Him in repentance.
It’s explained rather well in the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus
Luke 16: 31 says: “But he said to him (Abraham to the the rich man in hell) ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.”
God loves everyone and is patient for us to repent of our sins, He hates the sin we do it separates us from him but He shown His love for us (sinners) in that while we were in our sun He died for us.
are you deaf? Didn't you hear Greg mention Psalm 5:5, Psalm 11:5 and Proverbs 6:16-19?
@@alihoussney7870 God loves you more then you know. Trust in Him. Please read John 3:16, memorize that verse
@@j.johnson5217 I agree with John 3:16 but we must not forget Psalm 5:5 and Psalm 11:5. it is not good to run off to other verses when I am talking to you about the Psalms. Also beware of the warning in Revelation 22:17-19 about tampering with Scripture. All who do this will not inherit eternal life.
@@alihoussney7870 Christ died due sinners, throughout the bible is very clear that He loves us despite of our sin, however, It's also clear He hates sin. God loves us with an everlasting love, nothing separate us from that. That does not mean we as Christians have the right to keep living in sin. To the unbelieverv tho, they will perish for rejecting Christ, the lamb who takes away our sin
@@j.johnson5217 stop ignoring Psalm 5:5 and Psalm 11:5. Read them carefully and for the SECOND TIME, quit running off to other verses.
End of the day, sinner is the one going to hell.
Well, if God didn't hate the sinner, then supposedly nobody going to hell, since God just needs to 'purify' the sinner. People do get to hell, therefore...
As God's 'change' in emotion, imagine if you are rowing upstream, you find difficulties, when you are rowing downstream, you're smooth sailing. The river is the same though, what changed? Your direction. So it's you for God or against God that dictates the emotion you receive.
Please check what the bible teaches about hell and purification which I presume you mean purgatory. All this is not biblical.
@@Cryaloudwell, you missed my point. Since God do hate the sinner, that's why hell exist. If not, then the whole purpose of hell is absurd, since God is punishing sinner, in virtue of their sin, as Greg said it.
I was pointing out to universalism, where every sinner goes to heaven since God just need to purify them. Wasn't thinking of purgatory nor did I believe it exists in the first place.
Got it well now. Thanks for that.
Love hate. We are one with our sin. Mercy is a special higher kind of love
God is the author of the bible and at this time he doesn't recognise sin Rom 6:14. KJV. God is long suffering.
Grace is all important to God so "man" will not be"tried"for his sin; but his belief.
Keep speaking TRUTH
Unbeknownst to a lot of us, reading the Bible in a literal manner instead of in the Spirit will cause problems when we are trying to teach. This is EXACTLY what the scribes and the Pharisees did. They didn't care about listening for the knowledge of God in the scriptures, they were so concerned about looking for numbers and what not that they read it in a manner that caused them to twist the scripture and make silly petty useless humiliating traditions. When I study, I meditate, I'm listening for my Shepherd's voice. I'm not reading a newspaper. But sadly a lot if Christians read it that way. I've experienced the difference between singing, praying, and studying in the Spirit compared to doing those things. So what the context was when it said he hates workers of iniquity means that His spirit is troubled by them, they cause Him pain and agony. It DOESN'T mean He hates their guts. That's what the Holy Spirit helped me understand because I read in the Spirit. Satan is causing confusion again through this doctrine. Oh there's a million ways to get to hell but only one way to get to Heaven! Jesus! One Way! Hallelujah
I agree with you Greg! Great video.
Having read the posts here, I think that we have to keep in mind 2 things: First, we have to begin with God and the very purpose for which God does anything. The Scripture is clear. All things He does, it is for one reason--for His glory. God is love, which includes God's love for His own glory. God loves us but He loves His glory far more than us. Second, John 3:16 does not communicate the quantity of love toward us but the method, meaning this: the word translated as "so" in the original language literally is "in this way" or "this is how". It does not mean "so much." In other words, our sin is extremely heinous to God, so much so that it took the death of a sinless substitute--His Son (because there are no otherwise sinless persons) to pay for our sin. So, we ought to be reading John 3:16 like this: "This is how God loved us--He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish (in hell) but have eternal life." And don't forget John 3:36: whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever does not OBEY the Son does not have life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
Finally, if the Lord Jesus telling people to depart from Him is not casting people into hell, what is? The notion that God loves us so much that He does not send people to hell is a misreading of Scripture. Revelation 20:15 tells us that "whoever was not found in the book of Life was CAST into the lake of fire."
This discussion is a sobering reminder that we had all better do a better job of reading the Scripture and allowing ALL of it to hit us full force. The same Bible that tells us God loves us is the same Bible that tells us that God hates sin and sinners. We don't have the right to accept the "God loves me" parts and leave out the "God hates sin and sinners" parts, lest we deceive ourselves. For every one of us will give an account to God. And on that day, there will be no excuses. God (who will be the Second Person of the Trinity on the Throne--the Lord Jesus) is going to be the judge, according to His own words in John 5.
Food for thought. It's true that God is love--Scripture says it twice, both in 1 John. Scripture also speaks of God demonstrating love to His unworthy people, and even to the world. But has it ever occurred to anyone here that God never says that His name is love? As we all know, the name of something describes their essence--it's not mere nomenclature. However, over and over again, God says in His word that His name is . . . holy.
Great video! I would also ad that God does not experience or have the sinful extremes of emotions that we fallen humans do-for example, his anger is always just.
The individuals being "thrown" is about as literal as the lake of fire.
It means that when we talk about persons, we discuss a topic altogether foreign to the text or its audience. Walton goes on: "In ancient cultures, such as Mesopotamia, the human person is understood as a character or a role, rather than as a personality; the individual is not a personne (person) but a personage (character)" (pg. 210). The sinner goes to hell, but that's a separate issue from whether God hates the persons going. In fact, Scripture is clear that God doesn't want them to go.
God is a righteous judge, a God who is angry with sinners every day Psalm7:11
It is impressive! It has really helped me to understand the thought process of the OT, which can be quite puzzling otherwise.
Consider the words of Jesus: "You have heard that it was said, 'you shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy', but I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous...Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Mth 5:43-45, 48). By loving, *not hating*, Christ says we become like God.
I think that there is equivocation on the terms hate, anger, wrath, etc.
I actually purchased both books at the same time.
Have you read Copan's "Is God A Moral Monster?" Excellent work in this area.
Rev. 2:6 talks about Christ's hatred of the *deeds* of the Nicolatians, not the people. All of these other verses are from the OT, a time in which, as John Walton points out in his book "Ancient Near Eastern thought and the Old Testament", there is no notion of a person apart from their actions. He notes "The modern concept of person is in fact a long way removed from the view of the ancients..." (pg. 210). It is best to understand such verses as condemnation of action, not persons.
Well said. This is one of those "pastorisms" that has always bugged me. Judgment falls upon any who are not redeemed. Seems pretty clear to me that it is the sinner, not the act or thought, that gets judged. I think it's just more that God's "hate" is so much purer than ours that we don't really get what his is like...that he can love and hate at the same time.
wow, just...wow.
I agree that the psalms are more poetic, also when He judges them, He knows they don't want to be with Him, and don't want to be good so I think hell is more just a lower quality of life plus someone like that never could be happy
Robert Macauley I appreciate Gregs' teaching tremendously, and believe that he has much wisdom. I was wondering who keeps him honest and as sharp as he can be (as I was watching this video). I believe your explanation is correct and is the essence of the gospel.
The world is confused as it is. Our message should be to the point and consistent. We are fighting against ourselves if we do otherwise. I suppose Greg is trying to challenge the mature Christian here, highlighting that we sometimes make more allowance for sin than we actually should. Sin is life and death to us all. Jesus preached to pluck out your eye if it led you to sin.
Having said that: Within the context of what Greg said: was there any verse that was clearly interpreted incorrectly? Eg. The Message says it thusly in Prov6:18 - Here are six things God hates, and one more that he loathes with a passion: eyes that are arrogant, a tongue that lies, hands that murder the innocent, a heart that hatches evil plots, feet that race down a wicked track, a mouth that lies under oath, a troublemaker in the family.
I always bring it back to my kids. I teach my daughter that she must not lie to me, and is the most important rule in my house. It is the well from which they learn all kinds of deceit and set their feet on the wrong course in life. Now when I catch my eldest lying to my face, I must admit anger wells up from the depths of my soul, for I understand the risk she is exposing herself to and where such a wilful act might lead her in her life. At that moment I would be absolutely furious, a feeling that might even resemble hate, but the hate (if I'm honest) is directed at the evil manifest. Looking at my daughter... I have never stopped loving her, not for one single second.
I know we shouldn't dumb God down to our level, but I truly believe that these lessons are given us (with the full complexity) to understand that both emotions could be present at a single point in time. Still remember, that even though I want the best for my daughter, she can still one day reject her fathers' love and get extremely hurt through a life of bad choices.... I will still love her with a love that can never be extinguished. She is indeed my precious girl! And I love her. It is not within the heart of a father to do otherwise.
I truly appreciate both the view points and actually believe Greg has a strong case, supported by many sections and verses in the Bible. It is indeed God's love (not hate) that leads us to repentance. But God is not unclear: Mat 5:20 - For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
It boils down to my example above. It is all about where we end up in the end. God loves us! Absolutely! But we can't pussyfoot around many of the absolute statement made by God. That is where people of the world hears the gospel, sees inconsistencies and turn on their heels. (I'm also not saying this should be our message in the conversion phase, but through maturity, we get to wrestle with the deep truths of God's Word)
Keep sharpening boys! Well done to the both of you. May we meet in heaven one day. Looking forward to seeing you and those you touch one day. All the Glory and Honour to our Father, Who is truly above all else to be praised.
Be blessed indeed!
I think the scripture is very clear. “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey . . . the wrath of God remains on him” (John 3:36) Also see Ephesians 2:2-3, and Ephesians 5:6. The wrath of God came first but then the love of God satisfied his wrath through the cross so that we might become sons of God. Because of the magnitude of his wrath we can measure the magnitude of his love upon us. If you take his hate for us away, you effectively diminish his awesome love.
This is the single most horrible thing I've ever heard a Christian say. This literally destroys any distinction between supposed "real Christians" and the Westboro Baptist Church!
According to Revelation 20:15, 'anyone not found written in the book of life was THROWN into the lake of fire'.
How is Walton's book? I just bought it a few weeks ago but haven't touched it yet. I hear it's an impressive work.
First, God doesn't throw sinners into hell because he's angry with them. In fact, God doesn't throw sinners into to hell at all; some choose to separate themselves from God, a choice that God reluctantly permits. Second, just as wrath=/=hate, anger =/= hate. Even if God is angry with sinners, that doesn't mean that he hates them.
This is a good video. I know right off the bat that our views of how we think God should be, but the scripture is true and every man a liar. I think that the America romanic Gospel causes us to react to this video without thinking, so in saying that let dwell on the attributes of God, and we will find our answers there LOOK AT ALL THE ATTRIBUTE.
This didn't answer my objection, namely that saying God hates individuals (a misunderstanding of those passages he quoted) removes any distinction between real Christians and WBC. Teaching the cross is just that: Christ died because of his *love* of the world. We love because he first loved us (1 John 4:19), not because he first hated us.
Exactly. If your username is "Teachthecross" then you must surely understand the reason for the cross; saving sinners from the righteous and justified wrath of God by pouring that wrath upon Christ.
But why would God throw sinners into hell if he isn't angry with them? He is just angry with the sin according to your view.
I thought I gave a clear distinction, so I’m not sure then that I understand what you mean by “destroys any distinction.” Again, to just share the bad news (Westboro) is not the whole Gospel. The “real Christians” are not to be lopsided but to share both the bad and the Good News. How is this particular distinction is destroyed?
I think the Bible teaches otherwise. Sin isn't just an action we do. It is at our very core and fallen nature. The curse of Adam ensures this. If God hates sin, and sin dwells within us then it follows that God also hates us. Separation isn't something we choose. We are separated by who we are. It's automatic. Thank God for his choice to love us when none of us deserve it. It is his choice that allows us to follow him. Amazing grace from a sovereign and awesome God. Ephesians 2:8-10
"there is no notion of a person apart from their actions". So does that mean the person and the action are the same? So then God hates both? Sorry maybe I'm just misunderstanding you. Perhaps you're right and we have been misinterpreting these verses. My question to you then is does the sinner go to hell or just the sin?
When we repent of our sin and trust in Jesus, we escape God's wrath. Now who gave us that escape...He did. The bible is clear that God judges the sinner and not the sin. God has a righteous hatred over all workers of iniquity, but has a righteous love to give them an escape. Atheists are quick to point out the wrath of God and as christians we tend to sugar coat it. God does not need our sugar coating. We need to declare the Word of God so through it people might be saved.
The Westboro Baptist Church does believe in the good news aspect of the Gospel; they just believe that they are its only recipients and that there only remains bad news for the rest of the world. Like Koukl, Phelps believes in the predestination and salvation of the elect alone. They both preach "God hates you, unless you're elect". The most infamous message, "God hates fags" is true even if one believes in unlimited atonement.
never read the bible have you??
So Jesus did not come to save sinners!!
Where does it say he hates us, he hates our sin and what we become, but loves us????
This didn't answer my response. Instead, you now bring up the doctrine of election. I will sign off with this, "(God is) not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. 2 Peter3:9.
if this is your idea of love, to say nothing of ultimate love, you're doing it wrong.
God alwaya response in love but does not degate the fact he is just God that judges the sinner. Even when God hates us because or rebellious sin it does not mean his love withdraw. Gods love is always aviable to us if we are wiill turn and repent. God is always loving but he also always hate the wicked. Even in God's hate he shows love by being patient and giving them a secind chance.
Well, what is hate if not the absence of love?
SlaveofChrist, that idea isn't found in scripture. Sin is an affront to love. It attacks love. Love hates the things that offend it. Adultery, theft, murder, blasphemy, these things are crimes against love. Love must hate it's opposite.
Pedro Enamorado What do you mean that it is not found in scripture? What isn't?
SlaveofChrist, the idea that hate is the absence of love. Sorry I was not clear.
Pedro Enamorado It's alright. But am I really to believe that God does not love everyone?
HERESY!!!!
It simply say god hate "sinners"
wrath =/= hate. For example, Koukl's view angers me, and I want to see it rightly condemned and abandoned by Christians, but I don't hate Greg Koukl; I want him to change his mind. And if he doesn't, I'll reject his teachings, and even consider him my enemy, but I'd feel more pity for how someone could promote such ignorance than hate.
Didactive scriptures, God does not hate sinners, your confused friend he loves us all but hates sin itself and will judge those who are deserving of his judgment.
Go back and read all of my comments. There you'll find a response.
I agree with Greg we do not know the mind of God. Read the Bible Romans 9:13 Romans 9:15-16
if he hated sinners he would hate us all!!!
1 John 8 written to believers says otherwise.
Why would Jesus die a horrible death for people he hates!!!
This guy is dangerously certifiable. Lol
Ok. God is angry too though. In fact God’s anger at sinners is so severe that the Bible says He hates them (Ps. 5:5; Hos. 9:15; Amos 5:21; Mal. 1:3; Rom. 9:13; Rev. 2:6). A loving God is by definition required to be angry at and hate sinners who destroy that which He loves. Exodus 22:22-24. This isn't just disagreeing with us. This is an active hate and wrath towards us. Your not rejecting just Greg Koukl. You are rejecting the word of God. I pray that God will reveal the truth to you.Take care
So God hate everyone, even babies born with original sin? Does God hate saved sinners, or unbelievers? Does he hate spiritual sin or carnal sin? Does he hate sinners that sin voluntarily or accidentally? Does God have little hate for kids but higher hate for adults? Does he hate more someone that tell a white lie or a terrorist? I don't think you can analyze all the biblical passages on this matter just in a few minutes video on what David said under inspiration. God hates sin, he "hates" sinners as a corporate entity, sinners as He doesn't want you to be. He hates sinners impersonally, not a single individual or we're entering the realm of heathen gods like the god of Islam, pagan deities who might love you only if you love them first. If you believe that God hates you also make Him a sinner. In regards to the God of the Bible, "hate" does not carry the same meaning we usually attribute to it (unless you're a Calvinist).
Really? To ‘teach the cross’ there necessarily must be bad and Good News. Just teaching the bad news is not the Gospel but neither is the opposite. Jesus was tortured and killed for our sin. Christianity is not all sunshine and lollipops but it is not all condemnation and repression either. Is it possible to truly love, without hating love’s opposite?
No straw men TTC--WBC is not God. When they take on the job of judge and jury, they stand in God's place, without his understanding of perfect justice satisfied by the Cross. Leave WBC out of this. As others have said, the cross is meaningless and Christ's death completely unnecessary if there is no sin for which to atone. And if there is sin that requires atonement, then there is a reason for God to be offended. We must read the WHOLE Bible, not just parts we like.
So if 40 % of the US population is Christian, and we are constantly told vy scripture that those that aren't christians will burn in hell !! And 1.2 billion people in India thru no fault of there own are not Christian so these are all going to burn in hell too !! Also 3 billion muslims will go to hell.. But don't foget he loves us ???? What a fucked up cruel individual this god character must be !!