my thoughts exactly. Lucien was REWORKED OUT OF MID LANE XD. they didnt even gutt him out of the lane. they hated him being there so much they emergency reworked his ass overnight. XD
@@Mirro18 at the time his winrate was around 51% mid and 49% botlane with pickrates of 9% and 4% respectivly. hardly what i'd call stupid broken or omnipresent. You might have been thinking of the first time he went mid when he was at 54% and riot BUFFED HIS ASS FOR A LEGENDARY SKIN RELESE. -.-
@@einjharrelracathat’s kind of broken if it’s at a 9 percent pickrate specifically instead of like 3-4%. It’s usually because they’re popular and solid, but if it’s to a pick that is usually off meta, it’s often because it’s broken and abusable.
@@bulletcola7890 9% pickrate paired with a very highwin rate would suggest that yes. but a highish pickrate with a balanced winrate suggests that he's just another pick that functions.
@@guidomista9197 usually the first ghost/flash just barely pulls you back to even since your econ was held down early. After that they know you have no engage for 4 to 5 minutes and can walk up a lot more casually to poke. Snowball? What snowball.
@@cokecan6169 thats just you missplaying than. Like you are stating your own skill issues. Ghost darius should be more than able to kill the range laner and you can vuy after wards boots and other stuff to expend you lead
@@guidomista9197 The standard of ranged top is they're picking after you, so you rarely are getting the right counter pick vs ranged. Also even in the event you do play Darius, that's really just Darius doing Darius things cheesing every top laner. Many top lane champions do not have this lane pressure. People really overestimate the power of ghost/flash in these matchups, because ranged tops are often failed ADCs who are bad at spacing and respecting engage. Also getting one kill via a summoner isn't always going to have a big impact, eg if you've already died before, are down on exp and gold from zoning, then yeah it's not enough to snowball, more like walking up stairs.
@@cokecan6169 thats legit the Problem every top laners has, the counter Pick. Like you are opening another Thematic on that part. Like if you would Pick irelia into yorrick. Like range top is not invincible at all, August aint even wrong
ADC main here. Dealing with mages in bot is not that bad if you bring enough sustain. You need to take things like absorb life, fleet footwork and bloodline (if your champion allows it) with things like second wind secondary. Heal summoner and if things are _really_ bad you could even pick up early lifesteal (vamp septer) maybe for a bloodthirster or BORK and worst case scenario you could even drop the dorans blade start for a Doran's shield or tier 1 boots start with 4 potions. Not to mention refillable potions exist. Yes you have to kind of go out of your way to deal with them but there are enough sources of sustain in the game to lane against them. Your support could also bring an enchater like soraka or sona (but you dont need them to and you cant rely on them to). Hope i at least gave yall some more options to fight them. Dont be afraid to experiment with your builds.
Sustain isn't the only problem, in my master games I see ziggs or sera quite often and they just perma waveclear with endless mana on 1100 gold at 800+ range. The lane is just stupidly non interactive at that point, if you don't have a god blitzcrank or pyke you just play farm and dodge simulator for 14 minutes.
DOes he know that ghost isnt a melee exclusive summoner ? Like ranged tops just go fleet/ghost too than what ? Also he took Darius as an example whos one of the worst vs ranged tops. SUre in silver 3 the ranged tops just run into pull range but not if they have half a hand
The ghost argument kinda falls flat. That is a limited cooldown, and the counter to it is to just play the game. No really, death in top lane isn't a big deal if you die in the right way. The ranged toplaner will still win out if the player is better. And for those arguing that it takes away a fronliner, not really? Jungle and Supp role can easily fill it, and if the enemy doens't have engage or poke, it doesn't matter anyway. His botlane take isn't controversial, just very ambitious. I agree with him.
But that applies for melee top laners too. You can sack a bit of hp on the first wave in most melee vs ranged top matchups to grab the push, reach the level 2 spike earlier, and then they struggle to flip that because most ranged toplaners have awkward/bad waveclear.
@@henriquepacheco7473 They're called cheater recalls for a reason, is you know how to you will punish them. Build up a slow push and then poke the daylights out of them. The gold they have doesn't mean anything against ranged toplaners who beat you fundamentally not with stats, especially when you will only have 3 waves worth of gold which will mean nothing because they have a level lead on you worth about 600 gold.
What you are saying here really is just an "Uhh.. ackshually" moment. No, nobody forgets that ranged top can backfire in the long run. The reason everyone hates them, is because they are extremely unfun to play against by the vast majority of the top champ pool, since top laners were mainly designed against melee matchups, unlike mid or bot.
@@yeah-yeah2249 fun doesn't matter in the game in the terms of balance. adc felt like absolute dog shit for 6 entire years and you all screamed at them "shut up shitters, step on a lego, get good, finnish hospital" because they had winrates above 48%. Why should top lanes "fun" be treated any differently?
I'm also okay with ranged toplaners. I just think Vayne should deal either % max health physical damage or flat true damage, not both, and Quinn shouldn't have so much poke for the amount of roaming she has.
if vayne's % true dmg should change, then fiora's should too. But i think that will never happen because its their gimmick. they wouldn't be able to function if that was changed. And tbh vayne's q cd and r invis is way more annoying than her % true dmg
The amount of true damage she deals is quite low, autoing 3 times to deal 10% hp isn't anything notable especially now that she can't surpass the attack speed cap. It's just there to help chew through anyone, which she should since she's a hypercarry. That's still at least 10 seconds of hitting a frontliner, by which point a normal team fight will be over. Vayne is one of the least egregious ADCs atm, and if she's top lane then there is a lot of stuff you can do to screw with her even in lane, such as abusing her lack of waveclear.
Vayne deals barely 10% max hp true damage over 3 autos which would be the equivalent of like 6% max hp physical damage that doesn’t even proc until every 3rd auto when she only has that, r bonus AD, and q onhit damage as her built in offensive abilities. Not to mention you can just heal that back especially as a bruiser, but her w true damage is pathetic and just makes it so that she doesn’t get immediately walled by tanks and not really much more
@@konstantinosb707 'because its their gimmick" I mean fiora was reworked, sion having a point click 2s stun was his identity until it got removed. the identity argument is and has always been the cudgel used to defend terrible mechanics
Darius does fine into most ranged tops. Kennen, gnar, smolder and jayce are all fine matchups (some better than others), if someone picks zeri top into darius, she just dies on ghost CD. It's mostly just vayne and quinn that he struggles with (maybe aurora but she's just overtuned atm)
@@brubie7584yes u get a kill if you re good but u hard lose in skrimishes and teamfights. Maybe you also get a kilm at the expense of giving your turret
@@lessgoo3428 Most of the ranged matchups (barring quinn and vayne) are about 50/50 over overall game winrate, and laning phase performance. Except smolder who darius crushes both in game and lane.
Darius is not good at abusing ranged champions. Ghost darius is if the ranged champion doesnt have ghost. Nasus can only abuse ranged champions if he managed to go even and has ghost, but i think he’s better at abusing ranged champions than darius cause of wither
nasus hard stomps most ranged champions if you have a brain, and start putting more than 1 point into his w. but thats a tall order from top laners in todays age.
@@isgonnabeagreatyear the only low elo take here is yours. 70% as slow paired with a frozen hearts 20% as slow gutts any range top laner who revolves around auto attacks. the only better pick is jax. if you cant win a game while essentially free farming a matchup as fucking nasus, thats a skill issue.
What I find fun about ranged top discourse is that everyone is whining about them but no one wants to play with them. Turns out when I play ranged top my team wants frontline. I thought they were gigabroken, why does no one want to abuse them?
The only lol streamer i watch anymore is a GM toplaner on EUW, and his take is that range top arent strong, they arent effective, they're just annoying as the only counter against them is to stop playing and hide under turret. Meanwhile against bruisers and mages bots you can still have your support harass or hard engage, you can still sustain, against a range top just hide under tower and wait for 15mins
I do miss the old days of top lane was it was a massive mix of types of champs. The old days of nid kennen and vlad etc. Back then we had plently of skill match ups even with ranged vs melee. So ranged where good early but fell off. I think the problem now is that alot of the abusive ranged top laners are adc that can abuse and still scale as opposed to a champ like nid who can go 10/0 in lane but still get outscaled by the enemy top laner.
I’m sorry the fact the video starts with him saying ghost makes you op is just comedy, so basically every melee just needs ghost built into their passive kit, oh and Vayne nah we won’t talk about her cause I can’t think up some bs that can reason why %max health true damage is fair to have up there on a range champ who doesn’t need to expend any resource to apply said %max health true damage. Just a reminder Riot let a ton of people go but kept this clown.
I like how August makes the worst possible example about friction. PoE auction house is the one thing the players and the devs currently agree should have way less friction because the current state is not healthy for the game. You still get items if you have currency so I don't think August even gets the point why friction was introduced in PoE trade, which was to reduce market manipulation at the cost of knowingly making the user experience feel bad. The integrated currency exchange is a feature that's universally considered a net positive and something they likely plan to extend to items in general
in which world a darius can abuse a ranged top that also plays ghost ??? holy shit , its so obvious that no one of riot balancing is playing top lane...
I like how august conflates playrate with power level only when it suits him. when talking about ranged tops he says they're not strong, showing their low playrate as evidence, but when talking about mage bots he shows he's aware that even though they are hardly played there, they're really strong and botlane players just dislike playing mages. maybe the large amount of toplaners complaining about ranged tops would indicate that they don't enjoy the champions, thus explaining the low pick rates, but surely it must be because ranged tops are balanced
I agree with the flash take but since the third party programs exist there’s really only two options you ban the app or you make the timers built in. Because here’s the deal once all the famous streamers use an app for an advantage it will become the standard and unless all the apps are owned by riot I don’t see the point in letting these people make money off your game.
I kind of feel like August has a clown take on Flash timers born from his own assumptions of how it would be implemented. He's talking about the game perfectly calculating the cooldown for you the way dragon and baron are handled. I think what most people are asking for is you open tab menu after you see the player use a summoner, you ping it, and it gives you a timer visible in the tab menu. It wouldn't time it for you. It wouldn't calculate how long after seeing the summoner you took to ping. It wouldn't put a timer for your teammate unless they pinged it in response to seeing you ping it. It wouldn't prevent you from being wrong and pinging a summoner that you thought someone used in fog of war, or being unsure who flashed in that team fight. It would simply replace 12:31 + 5 = 17:31 and typing 1731 voli F in chat with opening tab and pinging volibears flash.
It wouldn’t replace typing in chat, it would be a v big improvement bc of the simplicity of pressing tab vs scrolling through chat mid fight. Keeping spell cds in ur brain is part of the skill in league of legends
@@arionljulja6142 No one is doing either mid fight. They do it before they go in. And sure, Enter - scroll wheel might take a second longer to check then tab, but we still have to ask if not making the change improves the game. Is allowing players to save a second in that way going to crumble the competitive viability of the game? No. There is still plenty of complexity to fill the tiny gap in players mental stack that opens up. And whatever takes it's place will likely be far more compelling game play. Wave state, player tracking, spacing, level up timers, roam timings, and any other of the hundreds of far more interesting aspects of the game instead of how convenient it is to track summoner timings.
@@hiurro u are downplaying this so hard lmao it is so piss easy in the middle of a fight or gank to press tab for half a second & confirm to urself that he has flash. Which will vastly change how u play the fight if it’s that easy to confirm. Using ur flash is already extremely punishing in high elo but having an exact timer is too much information to give to the enemy player, like I’m sorry but brother if u want that kind of power u gotta use ur brain a lil bit & remember the general time in which he has no flash
We can already ping enemy spells in chat, there is no need for other tools. I see how it makes it easier but there is no reason to make everything to easy and also the ward ping system that is the same system is already bonkers and in my ophinion should be removed from the game. Making essential game knowledge easily accesible for lazy players are just a bad move in general. And these changes automaticly helps scripters because there are already auto ward ping hax, that makes the ward ping feature insanely disgusting, them doing the same with spells? no thank you.
Those things that track Summoners cooldowns on ur monitor shouldn't be allowed, it takes out skill and gives advantage other players dont have cuz whioe others need to use their memory they only look up at the icon
The only problem is that everyone doesn't have it. Riot really should add the feature to the game. Tracking summoner cooldowns does take a small amount of skill, but it's the same kind of skill as everything else in the game: balancing mental load. looking at the in game timer and adding five, then typing that number in chat to look at isn't inherently hard, it's just a mater of doing it while thinking about everything else going on. Ultimately, it's busy work. So then the question is, does keeping it improve the game in any way? To my mind it doesn't. League is well beyond the ability of any human to track every single variable in the game. If the need to manually track the timer of each summoner was removed from the game even Faker, the greatest of all time, would have another aspect of the game ready for his attention to turn to. And it's not like it would be automatic anyway. A player would need to open the status screen and ping the summoners and likely open it again to see the timers, so really it wouldn't even reduce the mental load, just streamline the process of it.
@@HarpieLady683 I can't say for certain it doesn't exist, but the 3rd party prams I've seen don't auto track it. It's a button you press there as well, though it is on the main screen instead of behind tab. But I do want Riot to implement it so that everyone is on even ground. If I can be conspiratorial for a second, I really think the reason Riot allows these apps is because they agree that those features should be in the game but can't / don't want to devote the dev time to implementing them. Jungle timers started out in those apps and eventually made their way to the real game and so did jungle routing.
Its literally just vayne lol. On darius she can fuck up in 5 different ways and still just get away, she has way too many chances even if you get a gank
I don’t mind ranged champs top if they are certain ones. Gnar is fine because he kinda has to play like a melee champ, urgot probably needs a slight nerf but is also fine as he plays like a melee champ. The issue is champs like aurora, kennen, vayne, and Quinn where all they do is poke and bully and just try to be 0 interaction all lane phase making you have to pray your jungler comes top or you just sit afk at turret for 15 mins Also on mage bot lane the issue with them is the same as top: 0 interactivity. They clear the wave from a range that outrages adcs so they just don’t have to interact making the game ver boring and unfun. Diversity is good for the game but it can’t come at the cost of interactivity and fun
First off, August is incorrect in that the current system creates uncertainty for whether flash is up. If you see a flash then the correct action is to type the timer or ping flash in chat, that is expected of even mid-ranked players, and you'll know the cooldown pretty damn accurately. Another way to do it is if both you and your opponent flash roughly at the same time then you have a timer there. Moving on... I think there is definitely a need for better summoner timer visualization. The fact that the current "timer" is a chat message is very poor UX, since you have to potentially memorize the cooldowns of every single summoner and keep track of them in a busy chat log. Good players can definitely do that and it is definitely a form of skill expression, but I'd argue that it isn't fun in the slightest and is a type of skill check that doesn't belong in the game. Whether flashes should be timed automatically is another question that isn't as clear-cut, since actually keeping track of when skills are cast is a meaningful skill to check. I think the biggest issue right now is that the easiest way to communicate a timer is with a ping, but it isn't very accurate. If you do it after a fight then it could be off by as much as 30 seconds. Even if you know roughly how long it was between the actual flash and your ping, your teammates won't know that. You could type the exact time, but that's quite annoying and not something players are eager to do. Also sometimes players don't set timers for whatever reason. Currently my stance is that automatic timers would probably be a net positive thing, granted that you have vision as the opponent uses the summoner.
removing this skillcheck in favor of allowing it to be seen would be a ballance nightmare, no? as long as they're seen, you know exactly when the immobile xerath or the squishy aphelios has or hasn't the spell, so either force a fight before it comes up or avoid fighting when his flash is up, staling the game to a certain point and trying to bait his flash again, and only then u commit to a gight. and then u have the exact timer again, after baiting the flash, putting pressure on both teams to keep them alive and on you to kill them on that timer. for assassins, would be even worse: talon has a shitty gapcloser and sometimes has to have flash in order to do his thing, but now everyone knows, since assassins tend to use flash more aggressively, thus making it always known. how does he play? everyone knows the exact timing, again they can stall and not fight unless his flash down and simply abuse the fact that he's a flashless assassin who's maybe playing against a great disengaging champion, even though he might be very fed. it would be like removing a layer of decision making that would completely change the game imo, and not in a healthy way. besides, how would it be known? they flash, and if they're on sight at the time they flashed everyone has that information on their summoner spells' icon with a countdown? only people who have seen it on the same screen as they were have it? the best implementation i could see would be a simple countdown timer, like we have for our allies, that would appear individually if the player pings the spell. still, people could ping and broadcast mapwide and even the toplaner could just ping the enemy botlane's flash too, know when it's up or down and prepare for a tp. not a huge fan of too much information given and less macro-wise knowledge being needed. what's next? not having to know when minion spawns and seeing them as they walk as opposed to simply looking at our own minions? some people still don't know how to avoid being seen when invading on krugs because of not knowing they can look at their own minion; is it riot's failure or the player's?
dumbing down the game even more and making skill, thought and the likes less of something a player can have over another one is honestly bad imo. i was already against having indicators for every and anything when it wasn't really needed provided you were skilled, knew which champion did what and so on, but whatever, not that big of a deal. however, it's a whole different thing to keep track of spells, know other people's cooldown simply because you know how the game and the champions work, or simply bothering to ping so everyone knows what is up and when it's up even, to having an app do it for you, so weird. it really should be bannable to have overlays. that kind of tracking is something scripts would have some time ago, and now people just have the information on their screen (as long as the player was in vision, however still bad) simply for being ingame. so, so weird. yeah, chinese players have had some kind of overlay for a while, know exactly when camps are spawning and whatever, but idk, it's not as egregious as having a whole app running on the background giving you info about other players, who's been on a losing streak, knowing their patterns because the app told u so and so on. you could argue that removing the aspect of having to remember or care about pinging frees up space for more micro-related skill to be shown, provided everyone has access to this information, but as it is now, either you have the app (which from what i've read can sinc to other players' who also have the app ingame, like, wtf) and have an advantage over other players or you pound sand if u didn't see their jungler flashed topside while u were trading mid. even though players could just look up their opponents u.gg or whatever, it's different from having an app babysitting you because you personally is somewhat bad on this regard. either everyone has it or those stats should be hidden for the sake of competitiveness and integrity
At this point ranged champions toplane are whatever, since a lot of ranged top players are autofill adcs (which means they're way worse at playing the game than if you are stuck with any other lane/jg player), if not then you just gotta deal with it. Problem is that toplane has been conditioned into counterpick meta like no other lane and if you get second pick you basically instawin.
Ahh yes.. players argue about being at a disadvantage in a ranged matchup😂 I get the feeling that the people who really cry about vayne, never have the spine to pick their main vs a counter pick😅 Players nowadays cry whenever adversity appeares and are only interested in "Winning Lanes". Top lanes dies twice with no river vison and a bad matchup and goes "ff15", afk or flame the jungler... I get vayne or other top rang3d are annoying😂 but you dont have to play to "win lane" every time😅
@@abbemartensson3850 those are the only ranks where ranged top laners work. so yes? also. *nicholas fraser* why the fuck you lyin? euw master nasus is 0.7% mid, so non existant and 2.3% top in the top. XD
ah yes, i love my counterplay being locked behind a 3 minute timer which also demands that I am not stomped when I don't have access to this "gamebreaking ability."
I don't know if that "uncertainty" makes the game better though. Its mostly just irritating and unfun when someone you could kill just flashes away, or they flash after you and die. In his dive example, if you see the enemy has their flash up, you'd know its just not worth diving them. You would be a lot more informed if you knew everyone's flash timer and could play around it
but why? then assassins can't play or people don't ever use their flash because others are gonna know and abuse it. anyone knows when the immobile adc has flash, so they bait it out and force a fight later. it dumbs down macro knowledge, removes a skill check and becomes an issue, favoring some champion archetypes much better than others. hook champions would be much stronger, assassins weaker, adcs tiptoeing around scared all game and so on. not having to worry about this tiny part of macro game favours micro skill expression much more important, but pickoffs are easier to get, immobile champions are perpetually weaker and so on.
@@iiolpok2653 I could say the same, when the enemy forced out your flash you will play more defensively, or position yourself better in the first place. I don't think it would impact the game that much, since high elo already keeps track of it, and low elo ints no matter what :DD
IF you had 1200 gold when they have 1200 gold (Wardens, Tabi, Cowl) you can properly fight them. But you will always be under-gold when you back. You will have cloth armor + boots by the time they have t2 boots or 1200 gold component.
I'd like to share the genious adivce all the big brain top main players like to scream at adc players whenever they get instant killed by something with almost 4x their maximum auto attack range that by their own metrics should let them auto win any matchup where they are outranged. "WHY DONT YOU JUST POSITION BETTER?" XD
ADC players being insufferable part 1818272 while their role was meta centric for the last 6 years except last split (it was the best balanced split btw)
@@santir2396 AWWWWWW but i thought this advice was sooooo good. i mean. positioning makes people immortal doesn't it? The caitlyn was just suppose to "position" in a way that the yone couldn't dash on her from 2350 range (the actual number) and instant kill her. why are you struggling so much to "position" around 550 range?
@@einjharrelraca ADCs proving once again that they're the worst players in league. You want to be immune to engagers while also being and the best class late game, and the best class in skirmishes, and the best class 2v2, and the best class teamfight wise, and the class which the entire balance of the game has been centric to since 2016? ADC is the easiest role to climb with, if you want to have all the advantages of being an ADC, deal with the downsides which are few (aka low self agency and thats it). Every role in the game has been conditioned to learn multiple classes becouse the meta has not been handheld to being only one class in one lane like ADCs. Not to mention the insane ammount of crutches they've been given every season, making the role easier and easier to play by the minute, and the players more and more accomodated. Last split we were finally at a point where Marksmen did not have either a get out of jail free card or a kite for free spell or item and you could tell ADC players played way way way worse, now we're back to the classic adc meta.
Im convinced that anyone who thinks mages should go bot has never tried to lane vs two mages at the same time. There is no other lane where you have to gamble your life for every cs when the opponent is at zero risk themselves.
ADC main here. Dealing with mages in bot is not that bad if you bring enough sustain. You need to take things like absorb life, fleet footwork and bloodline (if your champion allows it) with things like second wind secondary. Heal summoner and if things are _really_ bad you could even pick up early lifesteal (vamp septer) maybe for a bloodthirster or BORK and worst case scenario you could even drop the dorans blade start for a Doran's shield or tier 1 boots start with 4 potions. Not to mention refillable potions exist. Yes you have to kind of go out of your way to deal with them but there are enough sources of sustain in the game to lane against them. Your support could also bring an enchater like soraka or sona (but you dont need them to and you cant rely on them to). Hope i at least gave you some more options to fight them. Dont be afraid to experiment with your builds.
"darius when he pops ghost" like ranged champs don't all also take ghost into him
When ADCs are allowed in other lanes without those lane's players being upset about it, I'll be cool with bot lane opening up to mages and bruisers
my thoughts exactly. Lucien was REWORKED OUT OF MID LANE XD. they didnt even gutt him out of the lane. they hated him being there so much they emergency reworked his ass overnight. XD
@@einjharrelraca tbf that was also partially cause his winrate/playrate was crazy
@@Mirro18 at the time his winrate was around 51% mid and 49% botlane with pickrates of 9% and 4% respectivly. hardly what i'd call stupid broken or omnipresent.
You might have been thinking of the first time he went mid when he was at 54% and riot BUFFED HIS ASS FOR A LEGENDARY SKIN RELESE. -.-
@@einjharrelracathat’s kind of broken if it’s at a 9 percent pickrate specifically instead of like 3-4%. It’s usually because they’re popular and solid, but if it’s to a pick that is usually off meta, it’s often because it’s broken and abusable.
@@bulletcola7890 9% pickrate paired with a very highwin rate would suggest that yes. but a highish pickrate with a balanced winrate suggests that he's just another pick that functions.
I love when my "incredibly powerful" ranged counterplay mechanic is locked behind a 4 minute cooldown.
If you cant snowball after kills, thats crazy
@@guidomista9197 usually the first ghost/flash just barely pulls you back to even since your econ was held down early. After that they know you have no engage for 4 to 5 minutes and can walk up a lot more casually to poke. Snowball? What snowball.
@@cokecan6169 thats just you missplaying than. Like you are stating your own skill issues. Ghost darius should be more than able to kill the range laner and you can vuy after wards boots and other stuff to expend you lead
@@guidomista9197 The standard of ranged top is they're picking after you, so you rarely are getting the right counter pick vs ranged. Also even in the event you do play Darius, that's really just Darius doing Darius things cheesing every top laner. Many top lane champions do not have this lane pressure. People really overestimate the power of ghost/flash in these matchups, because ranged tops are often failed ADCs who are bad at spacing and respecting engage. Also getting one kill via a summoner isn't always going to have a big impact, eg if you've already died before, are down on exp and gold from zoning, then yeah it's not enough to snowball, more like walking up stairs.
@@cokecan6169 thats legit the Problem every top laners has, the counter Pick. Like you are opening another Thematic on that part. Like if you would Pick irelia into yorrick. Like range top is not invincible at all, August aint even wrong
ADC main here. Dealing with mages in bot is not that bad if you bring enough sustain. You need to take things like absorb life, fleet footwork and bloodline (if your champion allows it) with things like second wind secondary. Heal summoner and if things are _really_ bad you could even pick up early lifesteal (vamp septer) maybe for a bloodthirster or BORK and worst case scenario you could even drop the dorans blade start for a Doran's shield or tier 1 boots start with 4 potions. Not to mention refillable potions exist.
Yes you have to kind of go out of your way to deal with them but there are enough sources of sustain in the game to lane against them. Your support could also bring an enchater like soraka or sona (but you dont need them to and you cant rely on them to).
Hope i at least gave yall some more options to fight them. Dont be afraid to experiment with your builds.
Sustain isn't the only problem, in my master games I see ziggs or sera quite often and they just perma waveclear with endless mana on 1100 gold at 800+ range.
The lane is just stupidly non interactive at that point, if you don't have a god blitzcrank or pyke you just play farm and dodge simulator for 14 minutes.
DOes he know that ghost isnt a melee exclusive summoner ? Like ranged tops just go fleet/ghost too than what ? Also he took Darius as an example whos one of the worst vs ranged tops. SUre in silver 3 the ranged tops just run into pull range but not if they have half a hand
The ghost argument kinda falls flat. That is a limited cooldown, and the counter to it is to just play the game. No really, death in top lane isn't a big deal if you die in the right way. The ranged toplaner will still win out if the player is better. And for those arguing that it takes away a fronliner, not really? Jungle and Supp role can easily fill it, and if the enemy doens't have engage or poke, it doesn't matter anyway.
His botlane take isn't controversial, just very ambitious. I agree with him.
But that applies for melee top laners too. You can sack a bit of hp on the first wave in most melee vs ranged top matchups to grab the push, reach the level 2 spike earlier, and then they struggle to flip that because most ranged toplaners have awkward/bad waveclear.
@@henriquepacheco7473They will definitely just cook you on the bounce back. That and the fact that they can aldo hit the wave lvl 1-3
@@munchiemunchie5226 wdym, you get a cheater recall in on the bounce and just win if they let you actually get the push
@@henriquepacheco7473 They're called cheater recalls for a reason, is you know how to you will punish them.
Build up a slow push and then poke the daylights out of them. The gold they have doesn't mean anything against ranged toplaners who beat you fundamentally not with stats, especially when you will only have 3 waves worth of gold which will mean nothing because they have a level lead on you worth about 600 gold.
people forget ranged top laners deprive your team of a valuable frontliner that can make teamfights waaay harder.
"but but but, my sacred cow melee lane :c"
They also deprive the lane from any fun or interactivity
add more midlane bruisers uwu
What you are saying here really is just an "Uhh.. ackshually" moment.
No, nobody forgets that ranged top can backfire in the long run. The reason everyone hates them, is because they are extremely unfun to play against by the vast majority of the top champ pool, since top laners were mainly designed against melee matchups, unlike mid or bot.
@@yeah-yeah2249 fun doesn't matter in the game in the terms of balance. adc felt like absolute dog shit for 6 entire years and you all screamed at them "shut up shitters, step on a lego, get good, finnish hospital" because they had winrates above 48%.
Why should top lanes "fun" be treated any differently?
I'm also okay with ranged toplaners. I just think Vayne should deal either % max health physical damage or flat true damage, not both, and Quinn shouldn't have so much poke for the amount of roaming she has.
if vayne's % true dmg should change, then fiora's should too. But i think that will never happen because its their gimmick. they wouldn't be able to function if that was changed. And tbh vayne's q cd and r invis is way more annoying than her % true dmg
atp vayne's %hp true damage is a joke, but agreed on your quinn point, her lane is too oppressive for how oppressive her midgame is
The amount of true damage she deals is quite low, autoing 3 times to deal 10% hp isn't anything notable especially now that she can't surpass the attack speed cap. It's just there to help chew through anyone, which she should since she's a hypercarry.
That's still at least 10 seconds of hitting a frontliner, by which point a normal team fight will be over.
Vayne is one of the least egregious ADCs atm, and if she's top lane then there is a lot of stuff you can do to screw with her even in lane, such as abusing her lack of waveclear.
Vayne deals barely 10% max hp true damage over 3 autos which would be the equivalent of like 6% max hp physical damage that doesn’t even proc until every 3rd auto when she only has that, r bonus AD, and q onhit damage as her built in offensive abilities. Not to mention you can just heal that back especially as a bruiser, but her w true damage is pathetic and just makes it so that she doesn’t get immediately walled by tanks and not really much more
@@konstantinosb707 'because its their gimmick" I mean fiora was reworked, sion having a point click 2s stun was his identity until it got removed. the identity argument is and has always been the cudgel used to defend terrible mechanics
Did he say darius can beat ranged champs
.
Darius does fine into most ranged tops. Kennen, gnar, smolder and jayce are all fine matchups (some better than others), if someone picks zeri top into darius, she just dies on ghost CD. It's mostly just vayne and quinn that he struggles with (maybe aurora but she's just overtuned atm)
@@brubie7584 bro. darius doesn't beat any of those. zeri has more movespeed if she also takes ghost because she has it in her kit.
@@brubie7584yes u get a kill if you re good but u hard lose in skrimishes and teamfights. Maybe you also get a kilm at the expense of giving your turret
@@monkey3101 he goes even against them, at least until you get to like challenger
@@lessgoo3428 Most of the ranged matchups (barring quinn and vayne) are about 50/50 over overall game winrate, and laning phase performance. Except smolder who darius crushes both in game and lane.
Darius is not good at abusing ranged champions. Ghost darius is if the ranged champion doesnt have ghost.
Nasus can only abuse ranged champions if he managed to go even and has ghost, but i think he’s better at abusing ranged champions than darius cause of wither
nasus hard stomps most ranged champions if you have a brain, and start putting more than 1 point into his w. but thats a tall order from top laners in todays age.
nasus beats almost all ranged champs except for cassio
@@einjharrelraca nasus can easily take away and max e vs most ranged champs as they lack sustain too
@@einjharrelraca yea just pick nasus and hope your botlane wins because the champ sucks ass before 10 min and after 20 min. low elo adc main ass take
@@isgonnabeagreatyear the only low elo take here is yours. 70% as slow paired with a frozen hearts 20% as slow gutts any range top laner who revolves around auto attacks. the only better pick is jax. if you cant win a game while essentially free farming a matchup as fucking nasus, thats a skill issue.
more level 1 health regen :D
i otp briar :(
What I find fun about ranged top discourse is that everyone is whining about them but no one wants to play with them. Turns out when I play ranged top my team wants frontline. I thought they were gigabroken, why does no one want to abuse them?
Not broken, just annoying making 15 minutes a snooze fest for both
The only lol streamer i watch anymore is a GM toplaner on EUW, and his take is that range top arent strong, they arent effective, they're just annoying as the only counter against them is to stop playing and hide under turret.
Meanwhile against bruisers and mages bots you can still have your support harass or hard engage, you can still sustain, against a range top just hide under tower and wait for 15mins
I do miss the old days of top lane was it was a massive mix of types of champs. The old days of nid kennen and vlad etc. Back then we had plently of skill match ups even with ranged vs melee. So ranged where good early but fell off. I think the problem now is that alot of the abusive ranged top laners are adc that can abuse and still scale as opposed to a champ like nid who can go 10/0 in lane but still get outscaled by the enemy top laner.
DARIUS CATCHING RANGE TOP WITH GHOST AFTER THE GHOST NERFS??? Not happening August is so off base when it comes to range top
really want to know what he thinks about creep block in addition why you aren’t ghosted when you teleport on a wave
riot thought "what if we made vayne top, except you dont need to learn attack move clicking?" and designed aurora
Wut? Orb walking is way more basic than running Aurora.
I’m sorry the fact the video starts with him saying ghost makes you op is just comedy, so basically every melee just needs ghost built into their passive kit, oh and Vayne nah we won’t talk about her cause I can’t think up some bs that can reason why %max health true damage is fair to have up there on a range champ who doesn’t need to expend any resource to apply said %max health true damage. Just a reminder Riot let a ton of people go but kept this clown.
I like how August makes the worst possible example about friction. PoE auction house is the one thing the players and the devs currently agree should have way less friction because the current state is not healthy for the game. You still get items if you have currency so I don't think August even gets the point why friction was introduced in PoE trade, which was to reduce market manipulation at the cost of knowingly making the user experience feel bad.
The integrated currency exchange is a feature that's universally considered a net positive and something they likely plan to extend to items in general
in which world a darius can abuse a ranged top that also plays ghost ??? holy shit , its so obvious that no one of riot balancing is playing top lane...
I like how august conflates playrate with power level only when it suits him.
when talking about ranged tops he says they're not strong, showing their low playrate as evidence, but when talking about mage bots he shows he's aware that even though they are hardly played there, they're really strong and botlane players just dislike playing mages.
maybe the large amount of toplaners complaining about ranged tops would indicate that they don't enjoy the champions, thus explaining the low pick rates, but surely it must be because ranged tops are balanced
What's this? Dessert out of touch with the player base? Well I never
Kennen, Kayle, Rumbel
"when nasus pops ghost, he can straight up *abuse* a lot of ranged champions"
delusional
I agree with the flash take but since the third party programs exist there’s really only two options you ban the app or you make the timers built in. Because here’s the deal once all the famous streamers use an app for an advantage it will become the standard and unless all the apps are owned by riot I don’t see the point in letting these people make money off your game.
Darius can abuse people by popping ghost.... ohh wait all ranged tops play with ghost aswell...
I kind of feel like August has a clown take on Flash timers born from his own assumptions of how it would be implemented. He's talking about the game perfectly calculating the cooldown for you the way dragon and baron are handled. I think what most people are asking for is you open tab menu after you see the player use a summoner, you ping it, and it gives you a timer visible in the tab menu. It wouldn't time it for you. It wouldn't calculate how long after seeing the summoner you took to ping. It wouldn't put a timer for your teammate unless they pinged it in response to seeing you ping it. It wouldn't prevent you from being wrong and pinging a summoner that you thought someone used in fog of war, or being unsure who flashed in that team fight. It would simply replace 12:31 + 5 = 17:31 and typing 1731 voli F in chat with opening tab and pinging volibears flash.
It wouldn’t replace typing in chat, it would be a v big improvement bc of the simplicity of pressing tab vs scrolling through chat mid fight. Keeping spell cds in ur brain is part of the skill in league of legends
@@arionljulja6142 No one is doing either mid fight. They do it before they go in. And sure, Enter - scroll wheel might take a second longer to check then tab, but we still have to ask if not making the change improves the game. Is allowing players to save a second in that way going to crumble the competitive viability of the game? No. There is still plenty of complexity to fill the tiny gap in players mental stack that opens up. And whatever takes it's place will likely be far more compelling game play. Wave state, player tracking, spacing, level up timers, roam timings, and any other of the hundreds of far more interesting aspects of the game instead of how convenient it is to track summoner timings.
@@hiurro u are downplaying this so hard lmao it is so piss easy in the middle of a fight or gank to press tab for half a second & confirm to urself that he has flash. Which will vastly change how u play the fight if it’s that easy to confirm. Using ur flash is already extremely punishing in high elo but having an exact timer is too much information to give to the enemy player, like I’m sorry but brother if u want that kind of power u gotta use ur brain a lil bit & remember the general time in which he has no flash
We can already ping enemy spells in chat, there is no need for other tools. I see how it makes it easier but there is no reason to make everything to easy and also the ward ping system that is the same system is already bonkers and in my ophinion should be removed from the game.
Making essential game knowledge easily accesible for lazy players are just a bad move in general.
And these changes automaticly helps scripters because there are already auto ward ping hax, that makes the ward ping feature insanely disgusting, them doing the same with spells? no thank you.
So why do things like Porofessor that cheat the summoner spell cooldown tracking are still Riot approved?
Those things that track Summoners cooldowns on ur monitor shouldn't be allowed, it takes out skill and gives advantage other players dont have cuz whioe others need to use their memory they only look up at the icon
The only problem is that everyone doesn't have it. Riot really should add the feature to the game. Tracking summoner cooldowns does take a small amount of skill, but it's the same kind of skill as everything else in the game: balancing mental load. looking at the in game timer and adding five, then typing that number in chat to look at isn't inherently hard, it's just a mater of doing it while thinking about everything else going on. Ultimately, it's busy work. So then the question is, does keeping it improve the game in any way? To my mind it doesn't. League is well beyond the ability of any human to track every single variable in the game. If the need to manually track the timer of each summoner was removed from the game even Faker, the greatest of all time, would have another aspect of the game ready for his attention to turn to. And it's not like it would be automatic anyway. A player would need to open the status screen and ping the summoners and likely open it again to see the timers, so really it wouldn't even reduce the mental load, just streamline the process of it.
@@hiurro They should do that aswell then, not using this legal hack to know everytime even if they didnt saw it
@@HarpieLady683 I can't say for certain it doesn't exist, but the 3rd party prams I've seen don't auto track it. It's a button you press there as well, though it is on the main screen instead of behind tab. But I do want Riot to implement it so that everyone is on even ground.
If I can be conspiratorial for a second, I really think the reason Riot allows these apps is because they agree that those features should be in the game but can't / don't want to devote the dev time to implementing them. Jungle timers started out in those apps and eventually made their way to the real game and so did jungle routing.
Ranged top laners are ok.
Ranged top laners being by far the best pick, thats not OK.
Its literally just vayne lol. On darius she can fuck up in 5 different ways and still just get away, she has way too many chances even if you get a gank
I don’t mind ranged champs top if they are certain ones. Gnar is fine because he kinda has to play like a melee champ, urgot probably needs a slight nerf but is also fine as he plays like a melee champ. The issue is champs like aurora, kennen, vayne, and Quinn where all they do is poke and bully and just try to be 0 interaction all lane phase making you have to pray your jungler comes top or you just sit afk at turret for 15 mins
Also on mage bot lane the issue with them is the same as top: 0 interactivity. They clear the wave from a range that outrages adcs so they just don’t have to interact making the game ver boring and unfun.
Diversity is good for the game but it can’t come at the cost of interactivity and fun
I hope people keep play aurora top that's free elo on line all my champions especially shyvana
Ah yes - it's good to intentionally make the game unfun
First off, August is incorrect in that the current system creates uncertainty for whether flash is up. If you see a flash then the correct action is to type the timer or ping flash in chat, that is expected of even mid-ranked players, and you'll know the cooldown pretty damn accurately. Another way to do it is if both you and your opponent flash roughly at the same time then you have a timer there.
Moving on... I think there is definitely a need for better summoner timer visualization. The fact that the current "timer" is a chat message is very poor UX, since you have to potentially memorize the cooldowns of every single summoner and keep track of them in a busy chat log. Good players can definitely do that and it is definitely a form of skill expression, but I'd argue that it isn't fun in the slightest and is a type of skill check that doesn't belong in the game.
Whether flashes should be timed automatically is another question that isn't as clear-cut, since actually keeping track of when skills are cast is a meaningful skill to check. I think the biggest issue right now is that the easiest way to communicate a timer is with a ping, but it isn't very accurate. If you do it after a fight then it could be off by as much as 30 seconds. Even if you know roughly how long it was between the actual flash and your ping, your teammates won't know that. You could type the exact time, but that's quite annoying and not something players are eager to do. Also sometimes players don't set timers for whatever reason. Currently my stance is that automatic timers would probably be a net positive thing, granted that you have vision as the opponent uses the summoner.
removing this skillcheck in favor of allowing it to be seen would be a ballance nightmare, no? as long as they're seen, you know exactly when the immobile xerath or the squishy aphelios has or hasn't the spell, so either force a fight before it comes up or avoid fighting when his flash is up, staling the game to a certain point and trying to bait his flash again, and only then u commit to a gight. and then u have the exact timer again, after baiting the flash, putting pressure on both teams to keep them alive and on you to kill them on that timer.
for assassins, would be even worse: talon has a shitty gapcloser and sometimes has to have flash in order to do his thing, but now everyone knows, since assassins tend to use flash more aggressively, thus making it always known. how does he play? everyone knows the exact timing, again they can stall and not fight unless his flash down and simply abuse the fact that he's a flashless assassin who's maybe playing against a great disengaging champion, even though he might be very fed. it would be like removing a layer of decision making that would completely change the game imo, and not in a healthy way. besides, how would it be known? they flash, and if they're on sight at the time they flashed everyone has that information on their summoner spells' icon with a countdown? only people who have seen it on the same screen as they were have it? the best implementation i could see would be a simple countdown timer, like we have for our allies, that would appear individually if the player pings the spell. still, people could ping and broadcast mapwide and even the toplaner could just ping the enemy botlane's flash too, know when it's up or down and prepare for a tp.
not a huge fan of too much information given and less macro-wise knowledge being needed. what's next? not having to know when minion spawns and seeing them as they walk as opposed to simply looking at our own minions? some people still don't know how to avoid being seen when invading on krugs because of not knowing they can look at their own minion; is it riot's failure or the player's?
dumbing down the game even more and making skill, thought and the likes less of something a player can have over another one is honestly bad imo. i was already against having indicators for every and anything when it wasn't really needed provided you were skilled, knew which champion did what and so on, but whatever, not that big of a deal. however, it's a whole different thing to keep track of spells, know other people's cooldown simply because you know how the game and the champions work, or simply bothering to ping so everyone knows what is up and when it's up even, to having an app do it for you, so weird. it really should be bannable to have overlays. that kind of tracking is something scripts would have some time ago, and now people just have the information on their screen (as long as the player was in vision, however still bad) simply for being ingame. so, so weird. yeah, chinese players have had some kind of overlay for a while, know exactly when camps are spawning and whatever, but idk, it's not as egregious as having a whole app running on the background giving you info about other players, who's been on a losing streak, knowing their patterns because the app told u so and so on.
you could argue that removing the aspect of having to remember or care about pinging frees up space for more micro-related skill to be shown, provided everyone has access to this information, but as it is now, either you have the app (which from what i've read can sinc to other players' who also have the app ingame, like, wtf) and have an advantage over other players or you pound sand if u didn't see their jungler flashed topside while u were trading mid. even though players could just look up their opponents u.gg or whatever, it's different from having an app babysitting you because you personally is somewhat bad on this regard.
either everyone has it or those stats should be hidden for the sake of competitiveness and integrity
At this point ranged champions toplane are whatever, since a lot of ranged top players are autofill adcs (which means they're way worse at playing the game than if you are stuck with any other lane/jg player), if not then you just gotta deal with it. Problem is that toplane has been conditioned into counterpick meta like no other lane and if you get second pick you basically instawin.
Ahh yes.. players argue about being at a disadvantage in a ranged matchup😂
I get the feeling that the people who really cry about vayne, never have the spine to pick their main vs a counter pick😅
Players nowadays cry whenever adversity appeares and are only interested in "Winning Lanes". Top lanes dies twice with no river vison and a bad matchup and goes "ff15", afk or flame the jungler...
I get vayne or other top rang3d are annoying😂 but you dont have to play to "win lane" every time😅
Fuck it top is a ranged lane now
Nasus pops ghost and ADC kills him btw😂😂😂
is this guy playing league? What rank does an adc have problem with NASUS
any rank where the nasus has 700 range on his win fight vs auto attack based champions button?
@@einjharrelraca so pisslow rank? Because good luck getting stacks vs a ranged top. Nasus is played mid more than top in EUW master where I play
@@abbemartensson3850 those are the only ranks where ranged top laners work. so yes?
also. *nicholas fraser* why the fuck you lyin? euw master nasus is 0.7% mid, so non existant and 2.3% top in the top. XD
Nasus is really good against adc, auto attack Typ champs, idk but he has a really good ability for these champs
ah yes, i love my counterplay being locked behind a 3 minute timer which also demands that I am not stomped when I don't have access to this "gamebreaking ability."
I don't know if that "uncertainty" makes the game better though. Its mostly just irritating and unfun when someone you could kill just flashes away, or they flash after you and die. In his dive example, if you see the enemy has their flash up, you'd know its just not worth diving them. You would be a lot more informed if you knew everyone's flash timer and could play around it
yeah. i feel like making information harder to track for no other reason than to make it harder to track is kinda stupid.
but why? then assassins can't play or people don't ever use their flash because others are gonna know and abuse it. anyone knows when the immobile adc has flash, so they bait it out and force a fight later. it dumbs down macro knowledge, removes a skill check and becomes an issue, favoring some champion archetypes much better than others. hook champions would be much stronger, assassins weaker, adcs tiptoeing around scared all game and so on. not having to worry about this tiny part of macro game favours micro skill expression much more important, but pickoffs are easier to get, immobile champions are perpetually weaker and so on.
@@iiolpok2653 I could say the same, when the enemy forced out your flash you will play more defensively, or position yourself better in the first place.
I don't think it would impact the game that much, since high elo already keeps track of it, and low elo ints no matter what :DD
Quinn, Teemo, kennen, Vlad, Gnar belong in toplane. Vayne is criminal
IF you had 1200 gold when they have 1200 gold (Wardens, Tabi, Cowl) you can properly fight them. But you will always be under-gold when you back. You will have cloth armor + boots by the time they have t2 boots or 1200 gold component.
Yep hard agree lol. You can outplay anyone but vayne, she can do anything she wants and still get away every single time
Dude, get this man back on champ design or balance team! First his love for dota then this! Let’s goooooo variety!
Just nerf ghost on ranged lol
Its that easy
first
I'd like to share the genious adivce all the big brain top main players like to scream at adc players whenever they get instant killed by something with almost 4x their maximum auto attack range that by their own metrics should let them auto win any matchup where they are outranged.
"WHY DONT YOU JUST POSITION BETTER?" XD
?
@@shinkii5819 ?
ADC players being insufferable part 1818272 while their role was meta centric for the last 6 years except last split (it was the best balanced split btw)
@@santir2396 AWWWWWW but i thought this advice was sooooo good. i mean. positioning makes people immortal doesn't it? The caitlyn was just suppose to "position" in a way that the yone couldn't dash on her from 2350 range (the actual number) and instant kill her. why are you struggling so much to "position" around 550 range?
@@einjharrelraca ADCs proving once again that they're the worst players in league.
You want to be immune to engagers while also being and the best class late game, and the best class in skirmishes, and the best class 2v2, and the best class teamfight wise, and the class which the entire balance of the game has been centric to since 2016?
ADC is the easiest role to climb with, if you want to have all the advantages of being an ADC, deal with the downsides which are few (aka low self agency and thats it).
Every role in the game has been conditioned to learn multiple classes becouse the meta has not been handheld to being only one class in one lane like ADCs. Not to mention the insane ammount of crutches they've been given every season, making the role easier and easier to play by the minute, and the players more and more accomodated. Last split we were finally at a point where Marksmen did not have either a get out of jail free card or a kite for free spell or item and you could tell ADC players played way way way worse, now we're back to the classic adc meta.
Im convinced that anyone who thinks mages should go bot has never tried to lane vs two mages at the same time. There is no other lane where you have to gamble your life for every cs when the opponent is at zero risk themselves.
It’s actually the most disgusting unbalanced 0 counter play meta. If they bring it back it’s time to uninstall at least till it’s gone
ADC main here. Dealing with mages in bot is not that bad if you bring enough sustain. You need to take things like absorb life, fleet footwork and bloodline (if your champion allows it) with things like second wind secondary. Heal summoner and if things are _really_ bad you could even pick up early lifesteal (vamp septer) maybe for a bloodthirster or BORK and worst case scenario you could even drop the dorans blade start for a Doran's shield or tier 1 boots start with 4 potions. Not to mention refillable potions exist. Yes you have to kind of go out of your way to deal with them but there are enough sources of sustain in the game to lane against them. Your support could also bring an enchater like soraka or sona (but you dont need them to and you cant rely on them to). Hope i at least gave you some more options to fight them. Dont be afraid to experiment with your builds.
Why do you clip it so he repeats himself so often. very annoying.
do it urself then
he does it one time? at the very beginning? And even has a time stamp/chapter thing to skip it on the video?
It's called a snippet, dude. It's like a "coming up" thing for TV. You can just skip it.