Owen Jones meets Ha-Joon Chang | The economic argument against neoliberalism
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- čas přidán 26. 06. 2024
- Ha-Joon Chang is a professor of economics at Cambridge University and a best-selling international author. I asked him to provide an argument against much of today's prevailing economic thought. Isn't austerity necessary? Do we have capitalism for the rich and socialism for the poor? Is taxation theft? Does welfare encourage laziness and fecklessness? What's wrong with inequality? And can we defeat neoliberlism?
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A straight talking economist with a realist approach to economics, rather than an economist chained by the shackles of free market ideology.
Free market countries are better m"kay
There's actually a lot of them out there. But certain parts of the press are biased agains them and others are uninformed on the subject matter. Check out Sam Bowles on Inequality as an example.
Well thought out arguments can be constructed to support any position under the sun, whether they hold up to close scrutiny or not. 'Proofs' in economics are much harder to come by, particularly in neoclassical economics, and Friedman's quasi-positivism is at best pretension to scientific method.
The validity of his proofs and arguments might better be judged by the results of application of his ideas over the last 30+ years. Stagnating and declining real wages, declining profits in production, soaring profits from finance and speculation and a far greater amount of crises than the previous 'Keynesian' era, to say nothing of the current mess we're in.
obviamente! Nobel Prize winning is just a label
He's a very good writer for the layman, using non-technical language.
I recommend Ha-Joon Chang's book "Economics: The User's Guide" to anyone looking to begin to learn the fundamentals of economics. It's empowering knowledge and this man is a fine teacher.
Thanks Owen and Ha-Joon. Voices of reason, amidst a cacophony of insanity.
People who I agree with are voices of reason, everyone else is insane. Doesn't sound very reasonable.
+Pinhead Luke sadly there isn't much reason in the wider public debate on the economy. Quite a lot of insanity. If you'd like to offer some reasoned arguments, I'm all ears x
I was disappointed with his last comment he went from cacophony to "quite a lot".
+Pinhead Luke ad hominem
The
This video just made me so sad because things could be done so differently. It does also give me some hope that there are people out there that want to build a society that works for everyone.
"I’m a pessimist because of intelligence, but an optimist because of will." - Antonio Gramsci
Ha-Joon Chang referenced this quote. Noam Chomsky also uses it. The truth is profoundly depressing; but the possibility of change remains and can only come about if we stay engaged and fight for it. Which is the essence of what Trotsky was on about as well, ironically given the news of the last couple of days.
That pretty much sums it up, that is a really nice quote.
The people you mentioned probably had the right will, but maybe not the right methods though!
It's naive to think that you can build society that in every moment works for everyone in the first place and having to work for some people is rather undesirable.
I would like to dispel the false belief that opposition to neoliberalism is necessarily a left-wing thing. You can still be fully in favour of capitalism, appreciating the huge growth and development it brought about pre-70s, but recognising the huge flaws of the current model since mass financialization. Socialism is not the only alternative to neoliberalism. We can just have a better form of capitalism.
the thing is that, if you put limits into the market, it defies the very principle of capitalism, therefore, in principle, by inducing changes into the mechanics, you are straying away from capitalism into something else already.
@@jinruizhang "the thing is that, if you put limits into the market, it defies the very principle of capitalism, therefore, in principle, by inducing changes into the mechanics, you are straying away from capitalism into something else already." That's his point.. Also Capitalism isn't the free market . Its the privatization of Capital, which the Govt still has to promote/prop up.
@@Armendicus yes, i was laying out his point for the original comment
So I'm guessing u don't support cooperative s
Every Conservative voter should watch this video.
Believe me, even if an academic proves them wrong, they'll still come back to free market economics.
but...they will not get convinced...start with the ones that are undecided
Every left-wing voter should get it through his head that Conservativism doesn't equal the free market. Remember Tony Blair.
G96Saber Nowadays, mainstream conservatives are liberitarians and fiscal conservatives --> free market pretty much
We should do away with Capitalism completely. Stop bonus's, incentives and goals. Let's all do just enough, or even better, nothing at all. Stay at home and 'skin up'. These people that work their nuts off are just greedy fuckers and we should tax the bastards for having too much money. I mean, how dare they. Big car? Scratch the fucker.
Great interview. I've got his book, "Economics: The User's Guide", along with yours, "The Establishment: And how they get away with it". They complement each other well.
Owen, serious question, how do you get interviews with people like Ha-Joon Chang and Yanis Varoufakis? Do you personally contact then or is it through the Guardian/New Statesman?
I get in touch with them and ask and if they say yes Adam and I arrange all the details. With Yanis Varoufakis I was doing a talk with him the same evening.
+Owen Jones Sterling job fella. Keep on doing what you're doing, you can change hearts and minds
well but you get their email addresses through other contacts or you DM them through twitter?
... nasty suggestion in the question [conspiracy theory] that Owen [the gadfly] is part of a left wing conspiracy against the present NeoLiberal 'consensus' (which is not a consensus of course ;-). Really? Carry on gadflying Owen!
Can confirm. I sent him an email a while back and he responded quickly and politely. I have a great deal of respect for Ha-Joon Chang.
Prof Chang is such a straight talker!
Breath of fresh air!!!
Pity we can't have "experts in their field" in charge of the country, instead of a bunch of self-serving career politicians who know almost nothing about the posts they are assigned to.
So much time for this. Keep going Owen!
Thank you so much for this interview, everything explained simply and clearly. Great questions and excellent answers, thanks again.
Great video Owen. It was half-way through that I realised I was lectured by his brother Hasok Chang, who is a professor of History and Philosophy of Science. What a family!
Brilliant interview!
ty ty Owen for making this interview and even bigger thanks to Ha-Joon Chang for giving the interview
Very good. More interviews like this please.
Chang really knows what he's talking about. It would be good to see more academics on the channel, to show how they're addressing real issues like this.
full interview!
"All you have to do is get the 10 richest countries to agree and the tax havens will disappear". Not a big task then.
Well considering themselves and very powerful people/businesses all benfit massively from the tax havens... Maybe it's a slight challenge.
It sounds difficult but really only a few of the really big ones need to do it and then pressure others to do the same. Which is, y'know, difficult, but it only requires countries like the UK vote in a more radical government that will make the changes to get it started.
+TurkeyProphet One can hope.
Not for Boris ;)
I read in Nicholas Shaxon's book that an estimated half of all global banking assets flow through the City of London, our overseas territories and our crown dependencies, so the UK has huge potential influence on the tax haven issue, if only the political will were there.
amazing journalism. Thanks Mr Jones.
That was fantastic. I really enjoyed hearing Ha-Joon speak. He gave me a real education and for free too. Thank you both Owen and Ha-Joon. I loved the simplicity of his tax haven solution. Brilliant. I do wonder if it could be done. Excellent.
Half way through. This guy is on it! One of the best vids so far. Well done Owen and thanks Ha-joon!
More interviews like this please :)
Another reason for taxation which Ha Joon doesn't mention is that it gives the currency its value when you have a fiat currency. So, effectively by not paying their taxes ppl r undermining the value of the £.
An Owen Jones video that has a high like/dislike ratio? This guy must be getting something right.
It's not left wing to want sound economics for the majority of the people.
***** Of course they're far from mainstream because those who would benefit from it are powerless and suppressed, whereas those who would lose can sway the media, the literature and the legislation to their advantage.
I understand your point and I'm quite sure you understand mine.
***** No, I understand your argument. I'm glad that youtube and other types of social media allow us to send this type of message to the masses. Otherwise, sound economists such as Ha-Joon Chang, Richard Wolff or Michael Hudson wouldn't be able to voice their dissent from mainstream economics.
I think you'll find most 'intellectuals' side on the left, a quick trip to polling data shows the nutty Lib Dem types were heavily represented by those in universities and studying.
***** i don't know specifically about that book, but generally; they're big government believers, who want poverty spreading taxation a theft redistribution, believe in junk science green energy, unlike commies, they believe the means of production should be retained in the private sector, while they as facists dictate how they should operate.
Owen, is it possible to post an extended version of this interview? Please and thank you.
Fantastic video Owen! Thanks!!
Indeed Ha Joon-Chang - the greedy and the rich don't give; they don't share - they take; they accumulate; they deny. If anything the people who inherit are the ones who are lazy and inefficient. We who are not so fortunate (in inheritance terms) have to take it back - we have to demand our fair share. But to do that we have to wise up; decode what's a tally going on ; become smarter.get a higher quality education. As a Cambridge don who shares his knowledge so freely I salute you. There are many dis-benefits resulting from globalisation. The fact you choose to live among us in the UK and do what you do is a real global benefit to all who can access the internet and speak English.
Ha-Joon Chang is brilliant. An astute thinker, pointing out that not everything is as it seems or needs to be.
Another great interview Owen!
Absolutely brilliant.
First class as usual!
Brilliant video, can't recommend Ha-Joon Chang's work enough
thanks for this Owen. we really need more on the subject to challenge the rhetoric which labels this type of economics as fantasy.
Thank God! Someone speaking sense and describing hope for the future! I just hope that the change that is alluded to, doesn't actually take too much longer before it arrives....
Great interview, but what was it different from, exactly?
Hi Owen, I've read your books and also Chang's 23 Things. Having really enjoyed all of them, I was wondering if you could perhaps recommend some other good reads (of a related genre). Keep the videos coming, they're great!
wonderful
Best video so far, very informative. Disappointed Brexit was not touched upon as I'm sure very Ha-Joon Chang would have some interesting thoughts on the subject.
Another brilliant interview. In the complicated socio-economic world a wide range of opinions and ideas is vital, no matter how much people claim either side of the political spectrum is stupid or ignorant.
Another great video Owen. I know the trolls have been going at you recently, but hope you know there's still a lot (the majority) who find these interviews really insightful.
Great interview Owen, agree with almost all of what he said. I wish you pressed him a bit more on some of the points he raised about how to reduce the debt and what changes in welfare specifically could be made to modernize it.
I agree with Dr. Chang totally. Thanks for this video.
Now that is wisdom. Well done.
Really good interview. The economy needs to work for everyone not just the richest. Are you going to do an interview with your Guardian colleague Paul Mason about his alternative PostCapitalism?
In this age of social science and psychology the terms 'work-shy' and 'lazy' are so outmoded - to put it nicely. I fail to see the motivation in sacrificing the best years of your life going to the same place everyday, seeing the same people and doing the same thing for the privilege of just about making ends meet. Maybe there's some truth about 'laziness' being a sign of intelligence, because you'd have to be mad to do that willingly.
***** You missed much of the scope of the comment.
+hytwoxy how about someone born to a millionaire entrepreneur from Knightsbridge is he at a disadvantage or otherwise when competing with your superhuman able bodied man?
+utopiaopera Did he? It wasn't particularly deep or insightful.
***** In terms of social science and psychology; there are spectrums of personality types that have a right to exist without having their basic living rights, in an imposed society, impeded. As much as it would infuriate highly motivated and driven people, that includes 'lazy' people. 'Lazy' people exist, and that is why the word exists to 'describe' them. Now, depending on your degree of existential exploration, you could take that notion and apply it elsewhere.
As for motivation you have to imagine what most people these days feel they are working for. I think most people feel they are working to make rich people richer and themselves, work harder & longer, with increasing doubts over their pensions... is that motivating or should they just be eternally grateful that the system has provided them with a way to survive like a cockroach might? Is that actually freedom? (Watch Michael Moore's “Where to Invade Next” to see how other countries in Europe manage to give their people much more purpose to their lives and work). Expand the scope and you are working towards an ever increasing miserable and unfair society with no prospects of a better future for your kids and grandchildren. Who would get up and grind a 9-5 job every day with a smile on their face for that given the choice?
I imagine you get the idea now, or at least, arrived to your own willing conclusions.
***** As I said, you will have probably arrived at the conclusions you are *willing* to arrive at ;-) Everyone is only operating at a level of mind they can at a given point in time. The level of mind of someone who say, reads the Daily Express and watches 'benefit scrounger' type TV shows, will have a different level of mind to someone who... does not. And that is reality as it currently is, I just have to observe and accept it.
Great interview, Owen. I got so much out of 23 Things They Don't Tell You About Capitalism and would encourage anyone who hasn't read it to do so. Things don't have to be as they are. It is a choice of government.
Your channel is pooping gold lately Owen. Really enjoying your interviews!
Great interview. Only point I have is that I hate it when people against the current economic system still reference GDP as a measure of national wealth, as if it in any way relates to people's lives and isn't massively skewed by the financial services industry and our debt based economy
The Gramsci comment at the end is quite telling. Has Owen ever interviewed an economist he didn't already agree with ? I really enjoyed his interview with Peter Hitchens - I wish there could be more 'cross aisle' respectful conversations because we have more chance of breaking our mental limitations.
Do another comments Owen they're great! (so are the interviews but its been a while since a comments video)
Will be back on them this week. Adam's been away.
Yanis Varoufakis and Ha-Joon Chang could single-handedly redesign global economics.
so when's the revolution?
Great video Owen
love this guy
The Master speaks!
Changs " bad Samaritans" is a fascinating read
Thanks Owen. Inspiring. He's so precise and jargon free. A Tory could understand what he is saying.
If you'd like to learn about Britain's relationship with offshore tax havens, and how the city of London works, then you should watch "The Spider Web: Britain's second Empire".
Thank you very much Owen. I don't suppose you could get an interview with Noam Chomsky sometime?
Owen, would it be possible to add subtitles on this? I find it quite hard understanding this guy strong accent. Thanks.
an interesting fella for sure! have to read some of his stuff :)
Talking about governments and their policies is not free market capitalism. Its just the state and politicians.
What's amazing is what just about everything Chang says isn't even controversial among economists and yet you get in to British politics and suddenly it's considered outrageous to not be for austerity or that someone might dare to not view people on benefits as lazy scroungers.
There are 7 stages of wealth that have been in place for centuries, which has been used for centuries to extract wealth from nations and concentrate power to a select few:
1. Good Money -
Every major empire starts out with good money, either gold or backed by gold.
2. Social Programs -
As a country develops economically/socially, it takes on more public works, adding layer upon layer
3.Military Spending -
As a nation’s affluence grows, so does it’s political influence and spends massively on the military
4. Wars -
Nation puts military to use and expenditures explode and nations go to war
5. Fiat Currency -
To fund the wars, the costliest of endeavors, nations start to steal wealth of its citizens by replacing their money with fiat currency (value decreed by government and backed by nothing).
6. Inflation -
Wealth transfer begins as hyperinflation sets in; Results in riots, eg. Egypt. Price of all commodities and goods go up.
7. Wealth Transfer-
Final stage, in mass movement, nation moves out of the currency and into precious metals and other tangible assets. The currency collapses. This results in massive wealth transfer to those who positioned themselves in the right asset class in advance.
This cycle is predictable. This is what happened to the Roman Empire and every other empire. Now we are headed back to the gold standard.
Read more at investmentwatchblog.com/here-is-what-i-learned-from-a-millionaire-about-the-7-stages-economies-go-through-and-how-to-profit-like-the-ultra-rich-during-times-of-economic-chaos/#RDHvExZHD8oHeiD3.99
HJC is an absolute legend, his writing is very clear and persuasive. That point about corporations being subsidised by the state because they can pay people very low wages and the workers will get benefits. Instead of giving people on minimum wages benefits, I like the idea of exempting them from paying income tax.
everyone should read Ha-Joon Chang
Always good to hear an alternative view. There is no 'one true way'. I'd ask the people who point to some failing 'socialist' counties to look at how some people have to live on the streets in so called 'capitalist' counties. Open your eyes, and ears!
yup.
Not only does he describe the illness, but he proposes common sense solutions. He should be advising Labour's Economic/Finance team on how to effectively shut down the Tory silliness agenda. Well done, Owen And Ha-Joon Chang. I hope we will be hearing more of, and from this leading economist.
Wow I really like this guy. Good video Owen
An interesting interview, but I would have like to hear more about the austerity argument. For example, what happens when expansive government investment fails to generate the predicted growth? Do you keep investing, pull back, what?
Not usually a fan of you Owen but really great interview :)
Dennis Skinner, John McDonell or one of the lib dems next!
Or Paul Mason would be good!
Why Paul Mason?
His new book on Post Capitalism is excellent
Weird jacket, great arguments.
Owen, please do an interview with Richard Wolff, he is in New York but I'm sure you could figure it out. And if anyone else hasn't heard of him please look him up.
publicity is the soul of justice. knowledge is power.
Hi Owen, It was a good interview and his views are really enlightened.
However I must nitpick your choice of language when you describe ideas like wealth or redistribution of wealth and "alternative", "challenging" or "different" because many people interpret that to mean the ideas are "untested" or "experimental" or "risky".
I think you should be presenting these economic ideas as "just", "reasonable" and "legitimate" because we should be giving them gravitas and showing them to be completely mainstream concepts if we are serious about their implementation.
Please can you do an interview with Steve Keen. He is a legend and is right about everything
Doesn't the fact that the UK has had unrelenting growth since 2012 during an austerity programme prove that the private sector has replaced the government spending part of aggregate demand?
You should interview Richard Wolff, he's an excellent teacher and economist.
Professor Chang is correct. Wealth can only be produced at above-subsistence levels because of societal infrastructure. The tax system should tax unearned income (i.e., rent-derived or monopoly-derived) at higher levels. The income tax could be greatly simplified and made higher progressive. Exempt all individual incomes up to the national median. Eliminate all other exemptions and deductions. Above the exempt level impose increasing rates of taxation on higher ranges of income. The rates and ranges would be set during the budget process in order to raise sufficient revenue to achieve a balanced budget. For cities and other local governments, the optimum amount of revenue to be raised would be the aggregate potential annual rental value of all locations within the community.
A sane analysis
Read that book :)
And you didn't ask him about BREXIT ??!?!?!?
more of this Owen. maybe you could have a chat with peter joseph RE the whole culture in decline narrative. keep on keeping on. yer a top lad.
Thanks Owen. Keep at it my friend. In the 60's I thought that if I did a few things right, I'd contribute to making the world better. It's better. And it's worse. Freedom is a responsibility and a full time job for those of us who don't take it for granted. Ask emperor Murdoch if he prefers bread and circuses, or the white heat of empathy and responsibility. This comment will no doubt attract the trolls, so I won't check back, I'll just say thanks, Owen. I subscribe and watch all of your videos.
At one point he quoted Gramsci. Brilliant. (Sono pessimista con l'intelligenza, ma ottimista per la volontà)
The Japanese railway system remains partially state-owned, and is not a fully privatised system as is widely claimed.
I think Owen is at his best when he is interviewing people. It gets a bit abstract when he leads campaigns on issues. He has a welcoming and great interviewing technique (a bit like Parkinson) give this guy a show on mainstream TV.
Very Good Interview! Can we have a interview with an economist from an alternative (Neo-Liberal) angle please!
Kangaroo123 how is neo liberal alternative? That’s pretty much the ruling ideology nowadays
Owen, we've had enough of experts.
i.e. "I'm smarter than anyone who has ever actually carried out specialised work in a field"
Nice joke mate I approve!
Funny joke dude
True, he is on a mission. And what a confidence! He knows everything from politics to economy and ecology, from capitalism to socialism. The boy is well informed. Why don't they nominate him instead of Owen Smith? Unfortunately, writing political articles is not like taking a fair, real and principal fight on the political arena.
Yeah Owen. Bring us some morons now
book recomendation, great read...please look for the original cover...much more serious and convincing
Read it, great book for a layperson
The problem is that our leaders are putting the wants of the upper class ahead of the needs of the rest of the people.
Neoliberalism basically means laissez faire or free trade without barriers. EU membership ring any bells? However, unfettered trading leads to greed and dodgy dealings as we reaped the consequences of the financial crash of 2008. UK needs to support capitalist principles while regulating excessive greed at the expense of workers, which creates an unequal society.
Owen can you do an interview with Dennis skinner
so the answer is Fighting Dogma ...my understanding of Dogma is "saying something over and over again until it becomes true" so the only way to do that is make your own Dogma any thoughts?
I referenced Chang substantially in my fairly sizeable series on the skepticism of free market economics: www.patheos.com/blogs/tippling/2015/02/03/on-the-skepticism-of-free-market-economics-part-1/
Interesting interview - good stuff - Chang should be championed more.
One of the best interviews done on the British economy I have seen so far! Everything Ha-Joon said makes sense.
Who'd have thought it, 50 Shades on the book case