Class 'A' vs 'AB' amplifiers: The search for a perfect soundstage and an emotional connection
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- čas přidán 1. 06. 2024
- I often find myself being drawn to Class 'A' type amplifiers, but why? Is that logical, or some kind of bias? I was of the opinion that they offered a better soundstage and a more natural listening experience. After this exercise, I am not so sure... In this video I also talk about 'Soundstage', what it is, and can it really be achieved? I also explain how humans detect sound sources and the importance of 'timbre' (a HiFi system's ability to differentiate between sound types).
Equipment used in this video:
Loudspeakers: Pearl Acoustics SG
Amplifiers: PassLabs INT-25, Rega Aethos, Sugden SPA-4, Musical Fidelity M8s-500s
Preamplifier: Topping Pre90
CD Player: Lyngdorf CD-2
Cables: Loudspeaker cables: Pearl Acoustics Natural Balance, Interconnects: AudioQuest
Listening Room acoustic panels: GIK
Topics covered:
00:00 - Introduction
07:14 - 'Soundstage', what is it and how good can it be?
10:13 - How do humans detect a sound source & hence imagine a soundstage.
15:11 - 'Timbre', distinguishing subtle differences in sounds
21:44 - Rega Aethos (Class AB)
22:45 - PassLabs INT-25 (Class A)
24:46 - Sugden SPA-4 (Class A)
25:41 - Musical Fidelity M8s-500s (Class AB)
Content Links:
More About Class A and AB amplifiers: www.electronics-lab.com/artic...
More about Soundstage: soundgearlab.com/learn/sounds...
How we perceive pitch: www.cochlea.eu/en/sound/psych...
White paper on Huygens and pitch: fabilsen.home.xs4all.nl/RPnat...
Wonderful 3D immersive sound experience (headphones essential) • Virtual Barber Shop (A...
Chasing The Dragon Records (Clare Teal recording) chasingthedragon.co.uk/
Our intro & outro music ‘Philia’ by Stefan Meylaers: open.spotify.com/track/0w9qjK...
If you would like to discover more about Pearl Acoustics, who we are, what we do and what we believe in, please visit our website at: pearlacoustics.com/ or email us with your questions: enquiries@pearlacoustics.com
Pearl Acoustics loudspeakers: pearlacoustics.com/loudspeakers/
Pearl Acoustics 170, vacuum tube, Class A amplifier: pearlacoustics.com/170-single...
Social media links: / pearlacoustics / pearl.acoustics - Hudba
With a big thanks to '@qumq001', they discovered that on the Pass Labs INT-25 recording, the Left and Right inputs to the amplifier were reversed, hence you'll hear the muted trumpets from the left, rather than the right on all the other recordings! Sorry about this, totally my mistake, I think it's time I left for my holiday ;-) I will try and reply to all the comments when I can! Harley
use headphones and turn them around for the INT-25 ;)
One of the finest amplifiers I had the pleasure to listen to is the Technics SE-A100. This one sports distortion specs that gives modern amplifiers a run for their money.
A true marvel of human engineering.
It's so good to watch someone talk calmly and intelligently about a subject without constant editing cuts and over the top gimmicks. This site and the British audiophile are the best sites on CZcams.
The Brits are the best for dry information delivery. All those years of BBC injection and you hear the accent and immediately think it's true science lol
😀
It is refreshing isn’t it? I’m so tired of all the click bait garbage. Anyone with a camera and access to audio gear on Amazon thinks that they’re credible reviewers these days
They both seem to have a good knowledge of what they're talking about too,which helps.
@@texfish they do. Taren(sp) British audiophile is one of my favorites to watch
Wow, the Pass amp has excellent separation, realistic tonality, a more human element to the vocals and the timbre, of course. That said, the Sugden seemed to have those same attributes, just a bit more refined and pleasant to listen to. The Musical Fidelity was nice too, but the Sugden was my personal favorite. Thank you, Harley. Looking forward to hearing about the new amp.
Thanks for sharing your observations and indeed for your very kind words!
I appreciate you taking the time for this comparison. I preferred the PASS for the layered dimensionality and instrument separation. The vocals had a little sharpness or edge to them which the Sugden smoothed off a bit but it didn’t have the instrument layer or separation like the PASS. ❤
You’re very welcome. Thanks for sharing your conclusions
The Sugden... Goodness me. Thank you for this comparison! I cannot afford the SP4, but will probably go for their integrated if I can put the budget together. Such a musical, open, clutter free sound.
👍
The difference is clear in favor of the Class A team, for the type of music I`m favoring the Sugden. This is the same experience I had when I bought my Accuphase 30W A36-amplifier vs their own 90W E-380 amp. Actually I bought the amp without worrying about the power based on one of your videos, where you questioned hi wattage amps, thanks for that! I believe with this video and the quality of your recording we have a proof of superiority of Class A. Heat and power are the only valid concerns as far as Im concerned.
Thanks Christian! Welcome to the Class A fraternity ;-). Indeed, in the summer they can be a challenge ;-)
@@PearlAcoustics Thanks to you again. My system sounds lovely thanks to you.
I prefered both Class A Amps, Pass Labs had a wider well defined airy soundstage, the Sugden had stronger and detailed bass with a wide soundstage. I found both Class AB had narrower soundstage and muddy/less detailed bass. It's interesting thet we can hear this differences even through the CZcams compresion codecs...thanks Harley !
You’re very welcome. Thanks for taking the time to give your feedback. It’s very welcome
SUMO 9 OR ANDROMETER
first of all thank you so much for sharing these exquisit and very insightful information, the details of your lecture and quality of analysis is second to non - at least for what i found over the years in the internet, specifically youtube.
As a professional musician, classical music, cello, orchestra, chamber-music and solo player myself, I am and always was fascinated of the secrets of sound, of timbre, finest audible details concerning music and the way we play it and the way we hear it !
My experience over decades is totally in line with what you explain here and I could describe so many situations , be it as a listener in different room acoustics while visiting classical concerts or be it whenever I do play myself in different locations, different halls or big rooms.
The instrument plays a mayor role, as can easily be imagined, the ability to project well, the basic character of it being more on the brighter or darker side- especially concerning the cello ! - to pierce through a thick layer of sound created by other instruments, the set-up of ones own instrument with different strings, bridges etc. -- actually all that is subject to physical laws -- that is what I have a lifelong experience with and still am fascinated by the quest for the "best" ( quite subjective of course ) and most true to life sound being offered by a hifi-system.
Actually it all becomes of course a matter of the time and the money one can effort to invest in this quest for it.
But I very much appreciate your amazing expertise, the ability to explain all these subtle differences and details to a wider spectrum of people here in the internet !
Of course it was extremely nice to listen to the amplifiers you show and introduce in this video -- with a good headphone one can quite nicely differentiate basic characteristics of those, the potential strengths and possible flaws .
I am about to look for a new amplifier myself and I think it will be a process rather than a short trial and purchase .
I am looking for all your videos coming -- thanks a lot once more from Germany !
Thank you very much for your lovely comment. I totally understand the challenges musicians have in setting up their instruments in such a way that they can cut through an orchestra, when required, yet blend in when needed. In fact singers have the same challenges. When you are ready, you are always welcome to visit us in Belgium, to listen to a range of different amplifiers… of course by appointment.
@@PearlAcoustics Thanks so much for the very kind offer !
I will absolutely enjoy visiting whenever I have the chance to be there.
Perhaps next year could be an opportunity, since our orchestra will play concerts in Belgium ( Antwerp , maybe one more place, possibly Brugge ) .
Anyway -- very nice to have a conversation about all these challenges and the fascinating technical solutions and developments from a company like yours !!
@@andretim75 thanks for your reply. When you have more details on your your, please let me know. I am very curious about your orchestra snd programme! Feel free to reach out via email, via our website.
THANKS HARLEY 🤗 FOR SHARING YOUR JOURNEY 👍💚💚💚😊
My pleasure!!
The sugden was immediately the most musical and engaging to me, out of all of them! Properly seasoned and tasty. Really well balanced and "live" sounding. The Musical Fidelity sounded rather lifeless by comparison, and certainly more vocal forward. Given that the M.F is an A/B amp, it makes sense that on this track the vocal stood out above the other instruments. Ultimately its about the kind of sound you prefer, there is no right or wrong. But - as you say in your intro Harley, with class A we are given a treat as hifi enthusiasts in that we can clearly hear the distinct separation of sounds. That's why I love class A...I just wish they didn't heat up like an oven.
Hi, thanks for your comment and contribution to the discussion. Coming soon is my video comparing tube amplifiers!
Fully agree to the importance of Timbre, Harley. Especially in voices, to me it makes the performance come alive. This is exactly what pushed me over the edge to buy my new power amplifier. One of the reasons mentioned in my video is - timbre 😉. Appreciate your videos very much and hope to get to hear your speakers one day!
Thank you Tom! You’re very kind. I hope you get to hear them too. Reach out to us via our website, maybe we can arrange something- who knows?
Very interesting points made. Especially timbre... probably the most important and least discussed element of sound reproduction. Here's my experience with amplifier soundstage: I have a couple of class AB solid state diy amps, one of which can run with up to 300mA idle current bias. As the bias is turned up, the soundstage grows (more separation, wider stage) and tonality is shifted. It sounds 'clearer'. However imaging and overall cohesion starts to go down at the same time. There's always a sweet spot! If an amp sounds good, it's not just the Class, it's how much effort the designer has gone into tweaking it, trying different parts etc. and what that designer considers important characteristics (measured spec vs. subjective enjoyment).
So true! Thanks for sharing your observations
I preferred the Rega over them all! Terrific auditioning. Appreciate! Francis
Thanks
The pass labs was definitely my preferred amp- it sounded the most natural, the most like live music.
What’s interesting is that I listened to this thru my bedroom home theater system which uses the Magnepan LRS+ driven by my old Nelson Pass designed Adcom 545 II.
(I have Galion solid state A75 amp on order to see how it compares to the Adcom.)
Thanks for sharing!
What an amazing video sir, thank you!
My pleasure!
Another fantastic video. Such a great you-tube channel.
Wow, thank you!
Even with ear buds in the class A sound was like a better microphone was being used. The Sugden was lovely.
😉
AB has more 'bite' - better for live bar setting. A is better for private/studio use, easy listening. My favorite is the INT-25, so clean. I notice Pass Labs are now using single industrial FETs rated at 700w / 40 amp EACH (not parallel banks) which will help! 🎤
I think one pair Vs paralleled pairs, and push-pull Vs single-ended output stage types, is more significant to sound quality than class A Vs class AB.
I have a Pass Labs XA25, I value it for the lively and dynamic sound I've only heard from push-pull amps with a single pair of output devices. I could see myself going back to class AB one day (because I've heard plenty of AB amps which sound smooth to my ears) but not back to an amp with paralleled output stages (they all seem to suck the spontaneity out of the music, expect for a few high-end amps I could never afford).
After reading Nelson Pass' comments on the design of the XA25/INT25, I don't expect the single pair circuit to become a feature of the whole range of Pass Labs amplifiers, the motivation seems to be to produce a smaller/lighter alternative to their standard offerings, although he does say that the non-paralleled output stage has a more "organic" sound.
Thanks for sharing!
Soundstage is an interesting one because a lot of what we perceive as the "position of the trumpet" is more about how the engineer panned the trumpet than where it was physically located. I have experienced systems with almost supernatural levels of soundstage separation, but it felt as though they were offering a forensic examination of the music, rather than a cohesive musical whole.
That’s very true, sometimes a detailed soundstage can be a distraction and that’s where mono can play a useful role
My perception was a bit of a “plastic” upper midrange in the AB amps in general.
The Class A seemed to treat this range differently, in a way that was more pleasing to me.
It was noticeable in the muted horns and vocal. The trade off was the definition of the transients in the A was not as detailed, as in the brushed snare drum.
Thanks for sharing
Very enjoyable and informative video. I am in agreement with you on a preference for Class A. I have both in my room and for more serious listening I choose the Class A. It is a vintage Ken Ishiwata designed Marantz integrated amp for the mid 80's. A delightful unit. Thank you.
Thank you for sharing your story and fir your very kind comments
The differences between Class A and AB are quite clear, with Class A you can hear the character of the recording room much more precisely, amazing. I listened with AB: Neumann Monitors KH 120 A (Class D), McIntosh MHA 150 (only Preamp-Function), via AppleTV 4k sending the signal via LAN to Lumin Streamer and this sends the signal via 2 Reclockers into the McIntosh-DAC.
Thanks for sharing!
that's a lot of digital stuff
Thank you Harley, for your enthusiasm in identifying the amplifiers that can reveal the low level detail in recordings that differentiate the different classes of output stages, and which also make for long tem enjoyment of music.
I have recently aquired a Class A amplifier that is 'probably' one of the rarest amps ever made and it dates from the 1990's. It's a JVC AX-SD1GD, made just before they went bust, were very expensive, brought about JVC's demise, which was subsequently bought out by Kenwood.
It runs quite warm, is built beautifully and has made me sell my previous amp, my Quad Artera Stereo which is highly regarded. The JVC is low powered (35watts per channel to 8 Ohms), weighs about 14 kilos, (double mono construction) is an integrated amp and it sounds wonderful driving my PMC Twenty5/23 floorstanders. It sounds much more powerful than 35 watts and I'd like to try it with your Sibelius loudspeakers. It's also very revealing of low level Information, unexplained noises, even performer's breathing and off mike sounds which add to the effect, which were not noticed before.
I am a fan of JVC amps and knew about their development of this 'luxury' compact hifi system, but could never find them for sale. One evening I saw an Ebay ad for the selling of a lot, held by a hifi collector who bought stuff when it came out, played it once then mothballed it. An item in the lot gave me a jolt, I recognised it at once and snapped it up, fearing it was a scam or a mistake, but no, I now have the amp. I did not expect the sound, it is superb and I've not stopped listening to it since, something I never could do with my Quad Artera A/B amp. I tired of listening very quickly with the Quad and couldn't really figure out why, it had tremendous power and slam, but it made me not want to listen for long.
After seeing and listening to you debating about the best amps for your listening, I was gearing up to buying one of the Sugden class 'A' amps but the JVC has now satisfied my quest. i'd still like to hear it with your Sibelius loudspeaker though, so I'll have to find the nearest stockist. I live in Essex, UK.
Thanks again, for your very interesting videos. Please carry on.
Hi Chris, thanks for sharing your wonderful story and observations. Sorry for the late reply but I have been away on holiday. If you reach out to me/us via our website, maybe we can find a way of getting you and your JVC hooked up to a pair of our loudspeakers?
Enjoy your amplifier, I am sure it’s very fine. I would love to hear it!
That Rega Aethos sounds really nice.
Glad you enjoyed it.
I'd prefer the Sudgen and then the PASS. I'ts really astounding, how much wider the sound stage is and how much more "musical" the Class A amps sounded against their Class A-B brothers. Thank you for this eye (ear 🙂) opening demonstration!
You’re very welcome
SUMO 9 OR ANDROMETER AMP
Pass is the first name that comes to mind when I think about solid state class A and integrated amps
Absolutely. He’s a living legend. In the UK the big name is Sugden.
@@PearlAcoustics The proper class A amps are the KSA/KMA Krells.Sadly Dan D'Agostino makes now class AB greatly overpriced and kitschy-looking equipment.
My girlfriend said to me this morning ‘ did you watch pearl acoustics last night’? ….’ How did you know ‘? ‘ you’re wearing faded blue jeans and a white shirt today ‘….😅
😂
Perfect. ❤
Two channel stereo does an amazing job of creating the illusion of space. Note I say illusion. Unless you get it into your head your seeking the most pleasing illusion and not something 'real' I doubt one can ever be satisfied.
Thanks for your comment
Very interesting video, I've always liked class A amplifiers, solid state or valve, just something about them I really enjoy.
Thanks! 🙏
Well done. Thanks Tom
🙏
Another great video! Re soundstage beyond the speakers, my Sibelius DEFINITELY deliver, and they do literally disappear. Same also for center channel and depth in the center. Re amp comparisons, I could not hear much soundstage difference; might be difficult with earbuds. However, very strong timbre differences. The two big boys sounded anemic (sort of ironic with all the famous "headroom" of big amps), while the two CAs sounded fuller, with the INT25 having most life in it. I can also confirm Sibelius being great at fine timbre separation. As you may recall, I am an amateur HIPP baroque string player (viola d'amore). Particularly with gut strings, bow speed, pressure, position opens up a lot of expressive possibilities. Sul ponticello and flagolette/harmonics are possibly the most obvious ones, but there are infinite gradations. Playing the same note on different strings results in different timbres. Extreme case on violin is open string (say a) vs. 4th finger one string lower (d string 4th finger = a, or even 5th position g-string). I can certainly hear and appreciate those nuances in good recordings with the Sibelius speakers. -- Enjoy your holiday in France; currently doing the same in Vienna.
Thanks for sharing your wonderful explanation and experience. And thanks too for your kind wishes. I am back from France now and listening to Brandenberg No. 5 while I write! Enjoy Vienna, I am off there in June.
As always, Harley, thumbs up prior to the excitement 😊
😉👍
Harley, first of all thank you and great job, it's always a learning experience and a pleasure to watch your videos. For me, with headphones, the sound differences were small but distinct. Hard to choose number one between the Sugden and the Pass, could live with either but might slightly prefer the Sugden, #3 is easily Rega, and MF had the least pleasant sound of the four. Even thoough I love Class A amps, I think I am a tube uy through and through, but would love to try a combo of a tube pre and a Class A power, that should be fun.
Thank you! You’re very kind. Deep down, I am a tube guy too 🙏
I got the Sugden 75 w and I agree. Sugden are actually very competitive in their pricing compared to same quality products. I have tried a lot of brands but Sugden was the end station for me.
Thanks for sharing your experience
Soundstage on the Pass Labs sounds more real and relaxed over the Rega. Sugden sounds more real and relaxing than the MF, overall I could take either the Pass Labs or the Sugden.
👍 thanks for sharing
I would like to there to be more emphasis on timbre in reviews also, and I suspect (in some cases it’s been admitted) we don’t because not enough reviewers are listening to enough live music. And you’re absolutely correct that sound staging often does not often happen in live performance, unless you’re maybe lucky to be sitting in the middle of a band or orchestra 😅, and that is what a good speaker soundstage can give you!
Thanks for your reply
Most Class AB amplifiers run in Class A for the first watt or so. You've already done a video about how loud 1 watt really sounds, and considering that most of us habitually listen needing only 1/1000 watt to 1/10 watt I don't understand the need for a pure Class A amp. Preference for Class A amplifiers over Class AB is indeed personal bias.
There’s Class A and then there’s “CLASS A” in my opinion. No, I can’t explain it.
I agree, one way of tell if it’s done right is the power requirement, some 30 watt output amps require 100 watts where others require 300 watts. My Luxman L590AXII requires over 300 watts and is Sublime. 🤓
@@1999zrx1100 My DECware SE84UFO 2.3 wpc, fed by the Lab12 Pre 1, pushing 90 dB sensitivity speakers sounds divine 😍
Thanks for sharing. Although that’s sometimes true, my experience is that many AB’s are only in class A in their preamp sections. Or maybe for the first eighth of a watt. In the end itsvthe music that matters and whether we can enjoy it with what we have. Best wishes
Very interesting comparison. But I must admit that if someone is listening to his system occasionally the difference is not as important. The more you listen the more you appreciate...at a cost of course. You just need to choose the best for your budget. Definitely its worth to spend time listening before buying. Ears before eyes may I add. Great video, much appreciated. Have a great time in France.
Thanks for sharing your very kind appreciation. And Thsnks to for your comment. Just back from France. Had a great time and brought back some nice wine 😉
Harley, I tried a little experiment. First I listened to the comparisons through the speakers of my TV, with the video streaming over HDMI from an AppleTV 4K. It sounds silly, *but* I COULD hear the difference - not full range or high fidelity of course, but I was surprised. I could immediately detect the Class A difference - Clare’s voice had more harmonic texture (timbre) and weight. The second pair were hard to differentiate.
Then I listened with good (though not “high end”) Beyer Dynamic headphones and I could discern the same differences in (and preference) in the first pair. For the big Sugden and Musical Fidelity power amps, a distinction was there, but I had a hard time decided which I preferred. At first I thought I preferred the Sugden as it had more weight and body. But on a second listen I found myself increasingly interested in the sound of the Musical Fidelity - it had a delicacy in the upper mids and higher frequencies that was almost beguiling. Next I will run it through my primary system to reveal more.
That’s interesting. Thanks for sharing
This was insightful and fun. All the amps sounded like the tiny speaker on my phone however...😅
Musical fidelity amps have been traditionally biased into class A for the first few important watts.
I agree on your timbre comments. Would love to hear the Sibelius out here in Montana someday. Something so appealing about a single unfiltered transducer for monitoring acoustic instruments.
Now be orf with you.
Have a splendid holiday, sir!
(Do you need a house sitter, btw??)
🎵🎶😉🎶🎵
😂🙏 thanks for your lovely comment. That’s very kind.
I built the Pass ACA and di a bunch of mods, class A, single ended, just a single Mosfet doing 8watts of work, woderfully transparent!
I have them too!
I have heard they are very good. Thanks for sharing
Thank for the context of “soundstage” and “timbre”, it is really educating and reminds me my music halll experience. I write to you just to notice you that your endeavor to present such a video is remarkable, and I am looking forward to watch your further heartfelt production!
Thanks!🙏
Thank you for this very nice comparison of the systems. I noticed in your examples that class A sounds more natural and physical. the voice and the cast are connected and sound more alive. Unfortunately I can only follow the test via headphones. I would be happy if you started further comparisons.
Glad it was helpful! Thanks
Thanks for the video. The Sugden for me, followed by the Rega (but i've always had a soft spot for Rega, so could be unconscious bias!). Any thoughts on sibilance in speakers and anything that can improve this without buying new speakers?
You’re very welcome. sibilance is complicated. It’s try some loudspeakers can exaggerate it. Mostly, it starts in the recording process. Sometimes introducing a ‘step filter’ can help, or invest in a piece of equipment like the Lyngdorf TDAI 1120 - where you can create custom filters all in the digital domain. I hope this helps?
All the different preferences below point out why we have so many manufacturers of stereo gear. Run a double blind test and you'll still get a variety of choices in which is preferred. Plus, we may slightly prefer one amp for rock and another for symphonic.
Indeed!
Well, that was fun!! I was very surprised how much I liked the Rega. I think it has to be that there was quite a lot of bass compered to the other ones which seemed to be leaner. Now, I now class A is not by any means lean or anything. It probably has to do with the ability of the amps to really control bass. My wow moment, was with the Pass. When all the horns played together. That was something!
And then I read this "hence you'll hear the muted trumpets from the left, rather than the right on all the other recordings" : )
😂 sorry about that!
Thanks for sharing your experience
I liked the Sugden most, but I also liked the Pass Labs. The Musical Fidelity seemed a little too crisp. My first go through the clips said the Sugden allowed my ‘ears’ to settle into the sound more easily. I use tubes, so perhaps Class A SS is a good thing. I left SS years ago, but I have wondered about Class A SS amplifiers over the years. Nice video.😄
Thanks! 🙏 and thanks for your comment
Excellent discussion.
I was drawn to the Pass amp in this demo followed by the Sugden. Both a little more 3D than the others.
I believe that imaging and timbre depends on the accurate reproduction of low level information. This information is at barely detectable amplitude but out ears catch it just as you microphone does, and our brains are well evolved at using this information. Dogs even better.
I find almost anything can destroy this information. Class A, simple or no crossover, lowest possible feedback, resistors in the signal path and transformers can really impact it.
Triodes do better than solid state. A single high sensitive driver with little or no crossover is good. Output transformers are critical and OTL even better. Coupling caps are critical. An autoformer will work better than a resistive potentiometer. I like silver better than copper for transmitting signals. Over specified power supplies help. Generally the simplest circuit with best component quality will win out.
So everything matters. When you get most of it right the sound illusion exponentially improves.
Thanks for your kind appreciation and addition to the discussion. Much appreciated
Charming presentation Harley.
Ive noticed that imaging doesnt really happen live, but its a cool effect in stereo. You're a recording technician, so can you explain how some recordings achieve image height?
Can't say much about the amp comparison....
(Bluetooth to my Node thru dac and AB amp to Magnepan LRS/RELs)I was left with an impression of your room acoustic with the Sibelius playing . Fun as you say, but Odd "Stereo system once removed" sensation.
I'll see if that record is streaming , Thanks!
Thanks for your kind comment. You know, I have never been able to explain exactly how height works, especially in our single driver loudspeakers! It’s obviously a form of phasing time delay. The weird thing is that amplifier designers can’t seem to explain it either. Hopefully someone in this community can help?
On the integrated amps, the first one on vocals sanded more natural sounding . the second one was a little bit warmer and the sound staging wasn’t as good but I preferred the sound to the second one on the integrated amps not too sure about the power amp if I could tell them apart. when I was moving into my music room, I would walk round it clapping to listen for echoes to help with the acoustics of the room
Interesting, thanks
Thanks to your discussion on timbre. I am new to the audiophile world and after reading a thousand reviews of equipment, I have yet to come across a review which discusses the relationship to room physics. Its such a major contributor to anything that we hear. Everyone ends up rating the equipment. My question is, what were the room parameters ?
You’re very welcome. As you’ll discover in my other videos. Room is so, so important
Have you got some favourite Recordings with great or spechial Soundstage? Over the Years i found, that Loudspeaker Positioning and the Room itselve makes (with the Speakers themselves) the biggest difference in Soundstage and Resolution. Greetings from Germany
Hi, thanks for your comment and question. I have so many, it’s very hard to select! But on the pop front, I often turn to Willie Nelson’s ‘Little House on the Hill’ from the album God’s problem child. It’s not that it’s very special, is just my go to track to try and pick out all the different guitars on it. Try and count them 😉. Also try and workout where the backing singers are standing on the choruses. On some setups, they are on top of each other, right behind Willie, on others they are behind and slightly left and right of him.
@@PearlAcoustics its 3 Guitars and a Bass right :-)? I realy love the Direstraits recodings... Especially the Album Telegraph Road, Private investigations is like a Crime happening right in front of me when i close my Eyes 😂
@@VFR1990RC46 indeed 3 guitars, but I think there’s an extra acoustic rhythm hiding in there, if I remember correctly (it’s been a while). Dire Straits recordings have always been good.
I wonder if there is any "peril" by having a mix of amplifier types when bi-amping a pair of 2-way speakers: Tube/Valve class A driving each tweeter and solid-state class A-B / class D driving the bass drivers ??
Personally, I wouldn’t do it but it might be fun trying !
How interesting, Harley. For me, in ascending order of listening ease and pleasure, it’s Rega, MF, Pass then Sugden. The last shines because of its deep (not just wide) and spacious soundstage, musical insight and feeling of all-round capability and sheer effortlessness. I remember your saying elsewhere that the Sugden A21 SE was noisier than the Pass over which you chose it (XA25?) but that its stagewidth was much greater. With efficient horns, for example, I think the former would be the most important factor in choosing. Finally, did you use the whole of the Int25 or just the power amp section, and how did you drive the other three? I feel the XA25, on extended and direct listening, should be the winner but, in this test, t’Sugden and Class A were easy winners. Great test.
Thanks for your kind appreciation. The two integrated amplifiers were used with their preamplifiers to create a fair comparison. Thanks for sharing your findings. Very informative and interesting
Cheers from the South Carolina Lowcountry (USA)
Hi from Tienen, Belgium 🇧🇪 😉👍
I closed my eye's so I could not tell what I was listeing to. I liked the Pass Labs INT-25. It was dramaticly cleaner, more vibrant, and had better seperation! In the first A-B test.
The Sugden SPA-4 did not sound as good to me as the Pass Labs did. It had more warmth and the vocals where a bit more forward but the seperation and sound staging was not as good and it did not seem as vibrant as the Pass Labs.
Very little difference between the sound of the Sugden and the Musical Fiedelity M8 as it comes to me via CZcams. I would have a hard time picking between the two. They both had some things I liked and disliked. In fact they sounded so close that I would need to spend a few hours listening to one and then the other to truly decide which one I would want to take home and live with forever. I think I am leaning towards the M8-500 though at this point!
The Pass Labs INT-25 was exceptional and even through CZcams it was a clear standout.
I am a classicaly trained musician and know what I like and that Pass Labs INT-25 is something! I can only imagine how much better it would be in real life! The fact that your mic caught the differences between amps well enough to make it past the CZcams compression scheme is also amazing!
Thanks for sharing your observations and views.
I preferred the Aethos' AB to the Pass' A. The Aethos had more colour, the highs less harsh, better soundstage and I like its more expansive bass notes. I hear more sibilance from the Pass which I didn't enjoy while it's bass were more "blobby", had less gradations and were less subtle.
Between the Sugden and the MF, their highs had less difference and in absolute terms, I didn't enjoy both of them in this respect. For the bass (I'm bass-centric as I've lost some 60% of my mid-tone hearing on both ears), the MF's AB again bested the Sugden's A.
For me, as far as the ABs go, the Aethos was better than the Musical Fidelity's. I guess I just like softness overall and in the bass notes, the softness somehow brings out the different gradations of the bass notes better than a more powerful bass.
And, oh, by the way, Clare Teal is one of my fav female jazz vocalists. Her "Hey Ho" is my fav.
Maybe next time you could try Tutu Puoane's "You Are My Sunshine" as an audition track.
I enjoyed this episode very much, thanks so much !
Thank you very much for your kind words, suggestions and contribution to the topic.
Thank you for the video. Can’t say that I hear much of a difference trough my AirPods…What do you think of the Lyngdorf cd-2?
You’re very welcome. You know what? I really like the CD-2. I like its simplicity, its functionality and its inbuilt Dac is good. I tend to run it through the Sugden Dac. I think it’s very good value for money.
@@PearlAcoustics Great, thank you for taking the time to respond, I appreciate it!
Interesting amplifier comparison. Siegfried Linkwitz can add more details on why our brain develops this sound stage illusion: It seems to be a survival mechanism, that developed human evolution, being able to quickly and accurately locate threats in reflective environments (caves, canyons). For exact sound source location, we predominantly use the -first arriving- direct sound. Reflections arriving >6msec later will be discarded by the brain in this process, if they come with similar sound "color". If the brain would not discard these reflections, it would have a hard time in spotting the position of sound sources in caves / canyons. There are some more factors at play. The performance of our brain in sound source location is just admirable. For this amplifier comparison, it would be interesting to find out, what exactly causes these different sound stage perceptions?
Thanks for your kind words and comment. I have spoken with many amplifier designers and I have never met one who honestly knows. It seems to be a mystery! As soon as a theory is put on the table, another contradictory hypothesis comes along
Question. Is it possible to power an amplifier with a 230V AC to 32V AC trafo by wiring it to a 32V DC battery pack? I'd like to make a small guitar amp portable on 4S lipos with a step up module to 32VDC at 12 Amps. The trafo is one black 2 red outputs what I asume to common ground. Meassured black to red is 17.8 VAC each. How would one solve the task? The Trafo is going directlly into 4 diodes. Is it better to input the VDC post them? I know this is off topic but I think here are lots of electonix and me is a simple mechanical engineer 😂
Hi, indeed a bit off topic 😉 but I hope someone can point you to a good electronics forum for your challenge.
Brilliant sir music on.
🙏👍
What do you think of the Sarah Willis French horn mash up with Cuban mambo music? Give it a spin!
Thanks for the tip, I certainly will!
Rega vs Pass: Aethos is warmer with a more distinct bass - The INIT is slightly more HiFi with a slightly clearer mid and treble but the bass is weaker and less inviting. Sugden vs MF: Sugden sound much like a cross between the Rega and Pass, quite inviting over all, the MF is grittier, the bass lack in decay, it falls of to fast seemingly cutting of the "timbre". I have a slight preferens for the Rega Aethos. This said I'm generally a tube-amp-preferer so I look forward to the next instalment! Listening trough an iFi iDSD Pro Signature (DAC/Amp) with Sennheiser HD-800S headphones
Thanks for sharing your observations! See you in the next one
I have an old Marantz PM 7200, 25 watt class A integrated with phono, as a second amp. With some tweakery it is capable of very pleasing results, I prefer it to class AB designs. I think simplicity of circuit design is of paramount importance in amps as it is in loudspeakers.
Thanks for sharing
in the amp sound comparison only the pass labs stood out, the background trumpet is more to the left. and all the others war to the center.
so large of a difference i have to ask if something gone wrong with the upload to CZcams or something else.
i have little experience with live music so i can not decide with i like the most, only differences.
Hi indeed, as you have probably now discovered I made an elementary mistake when connecting the PassLabs and accidentally switched left and right! That’s why. Sorry
Nice one again Harley. Just a note. I own the Rega Aethos and it runs hot and is in Class A for the first 5 or 6 watts. I noticed you were playing it with the volume at five to twelve. I have never done that. Rarely even at quarter to twelve. That would be very loud. Around 80db. I have Arendal Tower S floor standing speakers at 89db. 4 ohms. My question is Harley. Did you really listen at five to twelve.
Hi Sean, thanks for your kind words. I don’t think I ran it at ‘five to twelve’ that was just a photo dropped in. However, I did contact Rega directly about the Aethos and their designer confirmed to me that the Aethos is only in class A at less than one watt. And what I find interesting that I didn’t find it ran particularly hot. Mind you, it’s been a while since I have run it for a very long session. Strange.
Thanks for the reply. Your kinda right about the heat. It does depend on how long you are listening to it. Like a few hours. Now that it's the summer it gets a lot hotter than the winter. But you have me kinda worried now if mine is overheating for no reason. It's a lovely amplifier. Thank you.
@@seanoreilly8603 no need to worry, I’ve heard many people say that they run hot - but I am comparing with powerful Class A amps that you can cook eggs on, just enjoy it. It’s a fabulous amplifier
@@PearlAcoustics Cheers Harley.
@@seanoreilly8603 👍
Class A more crisp and tube sound and AB more clear sound, more detailed in vocal areas both quite good for me better separation than A class, but A class is more natural like in the pub's and more on warm side. Probably depends what kind of music type is listening that day but both are very satisfied and similar.
Thanks for sharing your observations
Interesting discussion. It is likely at moderate listening levels say the first 15-20 watts, a well designed class AB amp is probably operating in class A mode verty similar to a solid state class A amp. As such ithe sound differences between one solid state class A amp and a solid state class AB amp largely comes down to which type of sound you as the listener like better as opposed to whether class A design is better than class AB. However differences start to appear more stark when one cranks up the volume and plays at say 80-100 watts, perhaps driving some large tower speakers to create a sense of a live concert when say listening to Tchaikovsky - 1812 Overture. I would think at some point most valve and solid state class A amps will have run out of juice due to the dynamic swings in the music, start to clip and perhapss the soundstage breaks down. Class A amps are great sounding for example the legendary Kondo Ongaku 15 watt integrated tube amplifier but we do need to realise it comes with some limitations as well.
Thanks for sharing your views with the channel. The strange thing is that, Most of the time we are only listening at around 1 watt, in a moderately sized room.
Interesting, thanks!
The class As sounded more relaxed and effortless to me.
I was sort of forgetting the amp while listening.
Glad you enjoyed it! And glad you forgot the amp and could enjoy the sound clips 😉👍
Yes, there is a subtle difference in timbre. I am listening in near field, so the sound stage was not different for me.
To my ears, the Passlabs sounded best, which was a surprise to me.
Thanks for sharing
Lewis Layton, the recording engineer in the 50s and 60s for RCA did some spectacular recordings of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. You could pinpoint almost every instrument and the timbral accuracy was quite realistic.
Thanks for this. They certainly had a fantastic reputation in those days. I know nothing about him. Do you have a favourite recording?
Rimsky-Korsakov' Scheherazade conducted by Fritz Reiner has been highly regarded as one the masterpiece works done by Lewis Layton on the legendary RCA shaded dog label. It belongs to The Absolute Sound' baker dozen LP vinyls endorsed by the late Harry Pearson who evangelized the beginning era of High End Audio in the mid of 70's along with J. Gordon Holt of Stereophile. Bravo!
Sherazade
Side 2 is the better side, the 1st side is average. Also the rca white dog is known to be better than the shaded dog.
@@tonydeniro284 the reason that the second side sounds better is because there’s so much energy in the music on the second side with regard to the first.
Passlabs is the winner for me, warm and musical, analogue sound. The Rega is good but lacks that warmth and smoothness of the Passlabs, still amazing. Sugden is great but a little harsh, while the Musical Fidelity is very clinical with nothing really stand out, but still good.
Great video as usual, please consider doing a review of the Van Morrison - Avalon Sunset album in a future video, I think you will really enjoy it.
Hey, thanks for the kind words and the tip for an album to review. I will certainly give it a listen. Van M. Has always had my deepest respect
@@PearlAcoustics Enjoy! :)
Hmmm... very interesting. Firstly, I could clearly hear a difference between both pairs. But... from the short clips that you played I couldn't make a clear decision as to which I preferred. I guess I would need more time to learn the sound of each.
Indeed
I found the discussion of timbre fascinating, but I’m stumped as to why folks insist on pronouncing the word as though it is spelled ‘tamber’ or even ‘tambray’. No matter, as for listening comparisons, my ear was attracted to the bass playing, and I felt I could fingering hand on the strings on the Pass Labs vs. the Rega; Sugden vs. the Musical Fidelity it was harder to tell. I thought the Musical Fidelity acquitted itself fairly well against the Suden. I feel like I would really need to be ‘in the room’ to tell the difference. The difference between a deep and wide soundstage and one which is narrow and shallow is instantly recognizable in a room; not so much over earphones on an iPhone from a CZcams video.
Thanks for your comment and contribution to the topic. French originating words are often tricky, 😉
That was fun. Thank you.
Via the Pass and Sugden the music sounds like a different, better recording.
Thanks for your feedback
10.000 $ amp it better sounds good ..class A is special indeed .
Love youre videos 👍
Thanks!
I can't comment on soundstage through YT. But tonal balance is important to me. On this recording, I felt the Rega Atheos overemphasized the vocals, which could lead to listening fatigue. The Pass INT25 had better balance, but I could see getting bored with the sound. The Pass I thought was similar in balance to the Musical Fidelity. In terms of natural balanced sound, while retaining some excitement, I thought the Sugden was best.
Thanks for sharing your findings. Indeed YT is limited.
I have to agree that class A does sound slightly better than all other class of amplification. I have to agree that sound staging and how natural the sound sounds is likewise the best. That said class AB does not rule out the same it is just more difacult to aquire!
You pay dearly for it though in terms of effeciency, heat, power consumption, output power, durability if used often and for long. Then you have the cost to purchase and the availability of said units!
Thanks for sharing. With regards durability, if an amplifier is well designed, it should last for decades, even those that run hot. But I get your point!
I readily understand how one can get caught up in an endless quest for perfection. But there comes a time when one should just stop and smell the roses. Perhaps my favourite listening experience came listening to a lovely recording played on a Linn Sondek LP12 equipped with a Decca tone-arm and Decca Mark V cartridge. The result was fed into a little Naim NAIT integrated amplifier driving a pair of GALE 401 loudspeakers. Was it perfect? By no means. But it was sublime.
Absolutely!
On the 1st comparison I couldn't tell much of a difference, but on the 2nd pair, in my oppinon, I think the Sugden was the clear winner. It just seemed to have more weight to every note.
👍
Is it correct that a class D amp there is no crossover distortion, so a high end or refined class D amp can compete with class A amps?
who cares - it's class D
@@TrueAudio Meaning?
@@Stuntpoeten many times not i read reports of class D sounding 'bright'; brighter than the normal A & AB
..so many times
@@TrueAudio I have heard Bluesound Powernode on Kef Q150, and Dali Menuet SE. They sound warm, pinpoint three dimensional imaging and detailed. Even WiiM Amp on Kef Q150 sound surprisingly warm and good, and is a shocking good combination for the money. In Stereophile Recommended Components Fall 2023 Edition Integrated Amplifiers, NAD Masters Series M33 is group A, and Bluesound Powernode group C. I have also had Sugden class A on Rogers LS3/5A back in the mid eighties, and that was a total mismatch.
Hi, yes it is absolutely correct. But with class D you need to look at the whole chain. For example even the best class D amplifier in the world can sound bland. It’s not the type of architecture that matters most, but it’s execution. For example there is loads of professional class D equipment that sounds incredible. You could check out my video on the perfect amplifier. And my interview with Bruno Putzeys.
Sugden takes this one with ease in my book.
😉👍
Very interesting. Obviously unscientific and even less so listening through my TV’s 2.1 system of Klipsch The Fives and a Klipsch 12” sub (can’t remember the model).
But! Even through CZcams and a very UN-reference quality setup, the differences were easily discernible.
Focusing on timbre, in the first comparison, I found the Rega to have a clearer, more natural sound whereas the PASS sounded soft and as though the speakers were covered with thin blankets. Less detail, and not as natural.
In the second comparison, while both were very good, the Sugden was equally “clear” sounding as the MF, but also much more natural, less like recorded music being reproduced through a stereo and more like you were playing the source directly, if that makes sense. Anyway, fun experiment!
Thanks for your feedback
I am going to be controversial but this is my opinion for what it is worth. Listening on headphones, I preferred the forward/louder sounding Aethos, especially as it seem to show how she was using her voice, the slight inflections seemed heightened which I liked. It felt as though I was in a "club" listening. There did not seem to be much difference between the Music Fidelity and the Sugden to me, both quite clean and separated.
Nothing controversial about that. The Aethos is a great amplifier. I think the best Rega ever made. And this is such a personal thing. Glad you enjoyed it.
Even though it is youtube i found the Rega too agressive vs the others and my fav was the Sugden i found it had more detail than the pass amp But hey this is on YT !!
😉👍
Evening listing on CZcams through the TV class A is far more airy sounding and natural and far more open...i Listen to quite a few amps over the years and the valve amps always sound better, Just a more musical sound with better openness and airiness...
Thanks for sharing
3D sound in a concert hall. Mussorgsky 'Pictures at an Exhibition', the bells appeared in space behind and to the side, 30 feet into the air. (LSO, Gergiev, Barbican Centre).
Indeed that happens. Especially in the Barbican! Many musicians hate playing there because of the acoustics
Does this episode go against 'what are you listening to?' I prefer Yamaha. All manufacturers have a sound. For me like the way Yamaha reproduce the sound of vinyl and cd.
Hi, thanks for your question. I don’t think it does. One should be able to switch one’s attention from the quality of the sound and the content of what one is listening to. It’s a question of making sure that we don’t forget why we buy all this gear… to listen to, and enjoy, music.
Unfortunately I haven't been able to listen to the sound clips yet.
Like Harvey, I am a big fan of single driver speakers. They have a coherence to the sound that most multi-driver cannot compete with. I think this is down to timing. Although multi-driver can produce a flatter amplitude response they are much inferior in the time domain. Human hearing is more sensitive to timing errors than it is to amplitude errors.
For me the best amplifiers currently available, based souly on listening, are class A valves. Having said that the latest class D amplifiers from the likes of Purifi and Hypex are closing the gap. I don't think it will be very long before class D overtakes the class A valve amplifier.
Thanks for your comment. I hope you enjoyed the video
The widest soundstage I've ever heard came from coherent, single-driver omnidirectional speakers (Walsh), followed by directional speakers with high dispersion coaxial drivers. The common theme is reducing positional "smear" across the frequency spectrum. Your budget is better spent on speakers. In 2024, modern Class 'D' amps from the likes of Icepower and Hypex measure equivalently if not better than most Class 'A' or 'AB'. Avoid 'A' or "AB' unless you are looking for something other than "wire with gain" measurements. An amp is an ineffective way to chase soundstage. To the extent that dynamic range improves emotional connection, the extra headroom you can afford with high-powered class 'D' is also a plus.
Thanks for sharing your experience
The Sugden seemed as the vocalist and the instruments all came together as very musical meaning coherent and the Music Fidelity amp was not to my liking in comparison. It sounded a little congested in comparison to the Sugden.
Thanks for sharing
Class a, hands down. And the pass labs between the two class a.
Thanks for sharing
Thank you. The differences are quite obvious. I vote for the Sugden. Wide soundstage and lively. Thank you also for raising the topic of the soundstage. Your hint at a live classical concert compared with a good recording shows, we are listening to a artificai soundstage. Even listening to a violin played live in my modest living room has nothing to do with listening to a recording. Therefore, I think the talk about which piece of gear is more realistic than another does not make any sense. It should be convincing, that is all. Another point: using the term "relaxing" as a quality of gear (I am into it myself) takes us more and more away from a realstic experience, because, as an example, playing a trompet live in your listening space is absolutely not relaxing.
By the way, do take your glasses off when seriously listening to music? Best Ulrich
😉🙏 thanks for the tip and for sharing your experience
Every time I prefer Class A. I can’t describe it but it just falls on my ears naturally.
The problem with class A is the heat and power consumption. The hi-fi goal needs to be achieve class A natural sound with class D efficiency. Not saying I know how to do that but there you have it. Et voila!
Efficiency to me is related to sterility
@@BobbyDazzler888 yeah I think is mostly is at current, however that’s what progress is all about. There is probably a path to efficiency that sounds as good or better than class A.
Hi, so true. My colleague Ajay, is achieving some great results in the direction you are talking about. If you live near London, maybe he’ll arrange a demo!
Interesting how to me the Pass sounds more pleasing , is it because the L and R are reversed
😉👍 could be! Sorry about that!
Are those loudspeakers transmission lines?
Hi, thanks for your question. In fact, they are a form of Voight pipe. I hope that helps?
@@PearlAcoustics Thanks for your reply!
The new $125 class D mono block amps (240 watts) now sound as good as the $10,000 class a amps.
Hi thanks for your comment, and for sharing your views.
I’m voting for the Sugden.
👍
I'm finding thew Sudgen SPA-4 to be the most airy of the four amplifiers.
Thanks for sharing your observations
I'm probably making a fool of myself, but it seems to me that L+R are reversed in the second recording (Pass Labs)
Ok… I can’t imagine that they are but, these things can happen… Will triple check and get back!
I have just listened to the recordings and you are definitely NOT making a fool of yourself. In fact the fool is me! It seems indeed that on the Pass Labs I mixed up the left and right Chanel inputs! Well observed, I have no idea how I and my editor missed it! Congratulations…. You deserve a big round of applause 👏 from me and my editor!
@@PearlAcoustics Thank you Sir, I'm glad I didn't waste your time. 🙂👍