Dragon disciple is so funny. "You need magic to be eligible for this class!" "Oh cool, does this class enhancey magical capabilities at all?" "No, quite the .opposite, actually. It will hinder your spell progression and make you into a much better martial class!"
@@Chrupignat It's okay, all is good. But yeah, it's funny that dragon deisciple was meant to be a sorcerer thing but technically bards could also do it lol
My first playthrough I did a dragon build. Eldritch Scion magus, scaled fist, dragon disciple, dragon ferocity. Doubles your str damage on every attack. Great AC, spells for buffs, but I don't need that many spells
Dragon Disciple also opens up Mythic Ascended Bloodlines with their various immunities depending on dragon type. Nothing like walking through lava (Midnight Isles) or shrugging off paralysis because your Mythic Bloodline provides immunity. Add cross-blooded sorcerer and you can get three sets of immunities...
Actually 4 levels in dragon disciple give you +3 and not just +2 AC since you also gains the benefits of the draconic bloodline and it gives you even more AC. Yeah, those 4 levels are really stacked.
The 4 dips in dragon disciple will still get u +3 bab, only 1 short of full. With the +4 in str, it's more to hit than a full martial of 4 levels + some dmg.
Eldritch Knight is pretty much perfect for a Arthas Menethil build becoming the Lich King. I like to think of Dragon Disciple as a 5 level multi-class (1 level Stigmatized Witch, Wolf-Scarred, Iceplant, Lizard familiar, 4 levels DD) for a martial character than something tacked on to a spellcaster
I feel like initiative is a skill you don't notice until you lose it or if your constantly checking logs. Like, bad rolls, especially on turned based can borderline kill off your party in some fight were good rolls can let you eliminate key threats at times. I don't think it's vital but I feel like it's more important than people give it credit for.
so technicly a stigmatized witch could be a dragon discible... not that it would do any good but it is possible.... i just want to see ember embrace her golden dragon energy
Whenever I want to do melee focused build with my caster I always pick Eldtrich knight for my casters. Seeing how you explained Dragon Disciple makes me want to do a an abyssal/red dragon bloodrager cause of their chaotic nature
Eldritch knight is the strongest prestige class by a significant margin imo. Near full spell caster progression, full BAB progression, bonus feats, spell critical, and unlocking weapon specialisation - and more importantly mythic weapon specialisation - is extremely strong. Honestly, taking a pure wizard over this is pretty hard to justify. Even if you dont want to invest anything in strength, you can use death's consonant to great effect. I think this leaves dragon disciple trailing in the dust. The benefits are much stronger, apply to a broader range of classes, and at a much smaller sacrifice to caster level. Spell critical also actually enables a truly hybrid playstyle, allowing full attack actions and spellcasting at the same time.
The Eldritch Knight's spell critical ability is great. The ability works for ranged attacks too so you can build a ranged EK. With a crossbow or dual wielding throwing weapons, you'll still crit pretty often. Spell critical also quickens any spell you can cast, so you can use it on spells from a mythic class or if you're Legend and have a different caster class, you can use it on the other class' spells. What I dislike about EK is that it takes so long to get spell critical, yes they get extra feats, full BAB and 9/10 casting levels, but they don't have any unique class abilities until level 10. It would be cool if they got maybe a weaker version of spell critical in earlier levels, like maybe it works for level 1-3 spells at first, then 4-6, and finally all spells at level 10. Arcanist qualifies for DD too so if you want to build a shapeshifting Brownfur Transmuter that fights, 4 levels of DD can boost your combat abilities quite a bit.
Duelist and sword saint int to ac stack, so it's actually decent rather than mediocre. I don't think it's supposed to stack since it's literally the.same ability, has the same name and all. But it does stack
One thing to mention about Dragon Disciple is that, unlike other prestige classes, it doesn't give you caster levels every level after getting the spellcasting feature, only 3/4. This is another reason to only dip, as it will slow down not only your BAB but your caster level as well, compared to say EK that gives you all of both. Only stay with it if the late-level abilities are worth it to you.
Hi Slandered Gaming, thanks for your content, it really helps me understand and appreciate this game better. I am on my third run of WotR, and I have a lot of cool ideas for my future runs, in parts thanks to your explanation of the different classes. I have a different take on the duelist though. On my first run, i went for a 10 Rogue/10 Duelist Azata Elf with estoc as my main weapon, and it worked very well. Basically, you just have to max your Dex and Int, it lets you have ton of AC. With haste (which as you already said multiple times, you should always have), you have a very tanky, very fast damage dealer. The bonus against attacks of opportunity and an already high AC make you able to run through melee and reach the spellcasters and archers without taking damage, and kill them very quickly. Also, you get a cloak in the Ivory Labyrinth that boosts your parry, making you even more tanky and able to protect your teammates. Also, the ultimate ability, crippling critical, stacks nicely with the added effects on your sneak attacks provided by the rogue class, letting you debuff your enemies quite harshly. With the feat that extends the critical threat range of your weapon, the estoc gets a 15-20 threat range, which is huge. Now, I'm not a minmaxer nor a pro a this game, but i found it to work very well. Also very fun, imo :)
Duelist has some pretty good synergy with sword saint magus if you do the legend path. From what I've played through, it seems like the canny defense stacks, and parry can be great because it allows you to riposte. If you're using a good crit weapon, which you should be doing with sword saint, you can basically get a full attack on an enemy, then parry/riposte on its turn to finish it off, all the while giving you more opportunities for sword saint's insane crit multipliers. The negative from an enemy's size matters a lot less with legend as well, because your attack bonus probably going to be much higher than that of most enemies. The crippling critical ability is also a nice bonus for a crit focused build. With combat reflexes, you can get a lot of benefit from doing a respec when you're level 10 or higher, then throwing those five levels into duelist. That way you're never really missing out on the feat, and you get to avoid wasting a feat. In the tabletop there are better versions of this though, because flamboyant arcana is a thing, as well as arcane deed.
I haven't tried it myself, but I bet a Trickster to Legend Sword Saint focused on Aldori dueling swords with both Aldori Defender and Duelist you could probably be an untouchable crit god that smacks any enemy who tries to attack you back so hard that they don't get a second swing... Another one on the list for Midnight Isles!
@@AncroKT Yeah even without Legend/Trickster this was a go-to build for pajama tanking in Kingmaker and is still very good in wrath. Scaled Fist 1 Sword Saint 9 Duelist 10. In WotR you probably wanna give up a duelist level for Oracle for Charisma instead of dex to AC and use the Intelligence Bardiche. It's a little silly though and not really necessary, there are easier ways to give up less and stack sufficient AC, but it's pretty entertaining.
Bloodrager primalist 16/ dragon disciple 4 is the way to go. I don't often find myself using offensive spell casts so having less spell slots and less spell levels isn't really a downside.
Not really. After accounting the loss of 1 BAB and mighty rage, you are only coming out with +1 damage on hit, and no AB bonus. Factor in power attack progression, and you will very likely do less damage per hit. You also lose tireless rage, which, whilst not a power level issue, is certainly very inconvenient. 1 minute fatigue after every combat blocks charging and enraging, so either you wait after every fight, or you dispel fatigue after every fight. This is a PITA. Plus, you will be restricted to a bad bloodline. You could be taking abyssal for example. As for bloodrager spellcasting, yes, its very bad. So rather than take primalist, which trades in nearly all bloodline powers to get the good rage powers and essential be a barbarian with very bad spellcasting, take mad dog, get the same rage powers, and a full animal companion with some very useful bonus features and which you can mount to negate the loss of defensive features for the archetype, in exchange for really crappy spell casting.
Canny defence is actually pretty useful for pyjama tanks, as it will give yet another attribute that your AC scales off. After accounting for gear bonuses to stats, you certainly dont need to have intelligence as a primary stat for this to be useful. Personally, I find the benefits of sword saint more useful overall, but this has better BAB and offers passive defensive benefits that the sword saint doesnt. If you already have access to a shield bonus and mirror image (several mythic paths can offer this), the duelist may be better for an unarmoured tank than sword saint as a means of scaling AC with intelligence.
I would point out that the guarantee of +2 Int means if you're REALLY a munchkin type; you could just take 10 Int to start - and wait for the Int boost: Problem = Skill points are not retroactively added like the HP from Con & Toughness. So it's a little punitive to do that, unless you really know the two skills you want - or go human for the fast learner feat to potentially offset. I'm not actually sure you could swing a Duelist/Dragon Disciple build - but if you can somehow, the +2 Int might be more useful, since Int would then be applied to AC (If I recall right - but you may end up feat starved for the requirements to get to duelist, and it would be a VERY SPECIFIC by class per level build, so massively easy to muck up) *9 Duelist/* 9 DD = 18. So probably would have to use Fighter Bonus Feats to get Duelist Unlocked and Bloodrager. Plus pick only certain relavent feats at the first level. o. O
Duelist works really well at increasing the survivability of your Rogue. Dragon Disciple is fun if you take something like Ley Line Guardian since it boosts Intelligence and a Witch's poor BAB.
Eldritch Knight was the bone thrown to people who loved Fighter/mage in 2nd edition AD&D I can't remember for sure so correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it was worse prior to getting ported over to Pathfinder, it's definitely useful but I prefer Magus and it's subclasses for that particular niche. I'm looking forward to when we get to Mystic Theurge I've always liked the idea of a divine/ arcane magic hybrid and I haven't seen much coverage of it.
Honestly something with access to Martial power and Hexes, leading into Dragon Disciple (White Dragon) 4 and going Lich seems like the best way to make the Warcraft Lich King.
Eldritch knight can be taken as your 6th level if you take martial weapon proficiency as a feat Currently in my first play through of WOTR going down the EK route as it’s the class of a old favourite character of mine from pathfinder table top
As I mentioned in my comment on the first part of the Prestige classes overview, I always forget that Aldori Swordlord and Duelist are different prestige classes, so I honestly can't remember if my favorite Kingmaker playthrough was as a Swordsaint Magus Duelist, or as a Swordsaint Magus Aldori Swordlord 😆
Dragon disciple 4 and eldritch knight 10 go hand in hand with joy. I personally enjoy a fauchard attack of oppritunity build to maximize your reach and the number of crits you get increasing your odds of getting a crit.
10 lvl rogue/10 lvl duelist with high Intel for skills. trickster with use magic device 3 so you become an equal lvl wizard. spells defence skills and sneak attack.
I'm not sure if it's just me but Dragon Disciple was kinda bugged when I tested with a blood rager Specifically, the rate on which you earn bonus feats, also, it gets even weirder when you get a second bloodline
Worse than wizard, though its certainly not terrible. Firstly, you lose one level of caster progression, and a sorcerer is already 1 level behind in terms of reaching new spell levels anyway. Also, sorcs rely a lot more on class levels than wizards, the later being almost entirely about caster level. EK levels will give you no bloodline features or spells. For 9th level spells, for example, you will only have 2 spell picks. Also, there is death's consonant, which is a weapon that uses intelligence for hit and damage modifiers. This is a huge advantage for an eldritch knight, as you dont have to choose between combat and spellcasting capability. Nothing comparable exists for charisma. You do have sage sorcerer as an option though.
you do not really need to level up magus up to 20. You can stop at level 10 or 12 depending on preference and go to Eldritch Knight from there. Really solid combination.
Eldritch knight on a magus is a huge waste. Magus get 3/4 BAB progression and much weaker spellcasting than a full caster. They also get access to weapon specialisation and greater weapon focus by default. You also get spell combat, which performs a similar function to spell critical and you have a heavy reliance on swift actions to use your arcane pool, so you cannot use this alongside spell critical anyway. By taking eldritch knight on a magus vs a wizard, you gain far less benefit to BAB progression, no additional benefit from mythic feats in the form of a large bonus to mythic weapon focus and access to mythic weapon specialisation and you are gaining caster level progression in a much weaker class. And aside from the relative benefit being much smaller, the cost is far greater. Magus have much stronger class features than wizard, (a wizard is overwhelmingly about caster rather than class level). Losing weapon enchant ranks means you can apply fewer enchants at the same time. You have a smaller arcane pool, and you lose access to bane weapon and I believed devoted weapon as well, which are the strongest enchants you can apply. You also lose expanded spell access (no sense vitals for you) and true magus (which is 2AB, largely negating the extra BAB progression of EK). And this is just the base magus. For the strongest archetype, arcane rider, you cripple your animal companion and lose greater arcane ride, which really sucks. A wizard gets FAR more out of eldritch knight, and sacrifices far less.
... it might just be me, but if you go DD when you have cross-blooded with the 2nd Bloodline as a Dragon, you regain all the passives being cross-blooded usually denied you. And you can take mythic to get another bloodline so youend up with 3 full bloodlines...? I think. Might have been patched out.
I only SLIGHTLY disagree about Duelist. I think it's very SLIGHTLY better, probably a C. The key is that you pretty much need to know you want to make a Duelist from the start and warp your entire build to focus specifically on it. That includes what feats to take and, importantly, what feats NOT to get to avoid redundancy. It basically hangs by the thread that is role-playing potential. Also, here is a list of EVERYTHING that can get you spontaneous arcane spells All Arcanist (Int) All Bard (Cha) All Bloodrager except Mixed-Blood Rager (Cha) Magus - Eldritch Scion (Cha) Rogue - Eldritch Scoundrel (Int) All Skald (Cha) All Cha Sorcerers except Sylvan Sorcerer (Cha) Witch - Ley-Line Guardian and Stygmatized Witch (Int or Cha) Honestly, I think you skipped some interesting ideas in Bard, Skald, and possibly even Eldritch Scoundrel since those also function as hybrids that want the melee improvement the class gives while also not being so spell-focused that losing caster levels is a death knell. I know you weren't being comprehensive when you listed Bloodragerm Eldritch Scion, and Sorcerer, but just wanted to add those very interesting options.
Good call outs. I focus on condensing video length because I figure people who want more information will read the comments and/or make a comment asking the questions they have.
I have a few questions with eldritch knight, first, does anyone know if the fighter levels stack with the sword saint ability that does basically the same thing? Second, in the case of a legend playthrough, does anyone know if it can increase your caster level past 20?
Yes to your first question. To your second question Caster Levels do not stack so the class would have to have something that pushes your caster level higher. Legend itself will not do it.
I have small suggestion about look of your MC for high rank class. You always used alchemist class and human race, so maybe changing for every video for another class and race it would be nice. I know, there isn't anything practical in such changing, it would improve visual effects in my opinion.
Couldn’t you theoretically get Eldritch Knight at level 6? You start as a Wizard, Witch, or Sorcerer, take Martial Weapon Proficiency as a Feat and then take this class at lvl 6? It wouldn’t be a good build, but I think that’s the earliest, unless I missed something…
I have to hard disagree on Duelist, Samori. I am playing through as a Legend. I'm mixing Thug, Aldori Defender and Duelist to play as Mad Martigan, the greatest swordsman who ever lived. My AC is sky high, I can make over a dozen attacks of opportunity per turn, with the Aldori abilities, Crane Riposte, and the duelist riposte, plus ever ready and finesse training with piranha strike, engaging my Legend is absolutely suicide. If you miss him, he hits you, if you hit him, he hits you, if you come close to hitting him, he hits you, and every swing is dealing MASSIVE damage (as of my current progress I think I'm at +26 damage per swing) A+ class all the way. Even just a 5 level dio to get riposte, or a 2 level dip to get parry, Duelist is A+. I haven't even gone down in combat once this entire playthrough, and there's been some fights where it's just safer to buff him up and send him in alone rather than risk my party members. He's an untouchable God of destruction because of Parry and riposte
@@SlanderedGaming I'm gonna be totally honest, in the last 2 days I ended up reclassing him so you are right, and I forgot I dropped this comment xD around the type you go to the Abyss, Duelist seems to really fall off
How many feats do you expect it to have? It gets 3 feats over 10 levels (the classes with the most bonus feats only get 2 more for 10 levels), full BAB progression, nearly full spellcaster progression, access to fighter specific feats, and spell critical as a capstone, which is a fantastic ability. If you stacked on significantly more bonus features, it would be clearly overpowered.
Dragon disciple is not an S. Level 5-10 are clearly not worth it, but even the first 4 levels are a bad choice in the large majority of cases. For sorcerers, this is a bad pick. +1 BAB, a bite attack (and by the way, this doesnt stack if you use dragon shape) and +4 strength will still fall far short of making you an effective melee combatant for most sorcerer builds and it locks you into a dragon bloodline, which means you arent taking abyssal bloodline, whose +6 inherent bonus equals the dragon disciple bonus even after account for the lack of stacking with tomes, and incurs no caster level penalty. You also arent taking sylvan sorcerer, the opportunity cost of which is huge. The dragon bloodline itself just isnt very good, mainly benefitting elemental blasters, not melee orientated sorcerers. For arcanist, if you are going for a melee build, you want to take brownfur transmuter, and missing out on powerful transformation costs you +6 strength after accounting from the capstone ability adding a stacking +2 strength bonus to both size (frightful aspect), polymorph (dragonshape) and enhancement (bull's strength or transformation), which again overshadows the +4 strength bonus from 4 levels of DD, and you are losing a caster level. Worse, this +6 strength lost may only be +2 strength net loss for you, but its +4 or +6 lost to all your other martial characters which you can buff with these spells (depending on whether you buff them with dragon form or not). For eldritch scion, again, you should take abyssal bloodline. Also, the loss of the last 4 levels of class features will cost you true magus, a rank of magus arcana and arcane weapon enchant and expanded spell access. True magus and expanded spell access give you +2 AB and sense vitals, which averages 17.5 damage per hit. Abyssal offers a better strength bonus and doesnt cost you these class features. Skald should never consider giving up its capstone feature for the DD bonuses. Its far too useful. Also, you wont have the option to select the crit multiplier increase rage power from the lethal stance line until level 17, and you will lose scaling on inspire rage, lethal stance and beast totem bonuses for your entire party. Similarly, bards lose scaling on their songs for the entire party, including bonuses to hit and damage, and the DCs of their offensive songs, as well as the deadly song (which admittedly isnt generally great, but its possible to get the DC quite high with the right mythic path). Of the two witch archetypes that are spontaneous casters, if you made these melee witches this MIGHT be an upgrade, but I cannot imagine this is likely to be a good option as neither archetype lends itself to melee combat. Your patron spells are tied to class not caster level, so kiss goodbye to weird or mass heal for example. You will miss out on grand hexes (again, not generally great, but the DCs can be high with the right build) and scaling of your hex DCs across the board. For bloodrager, you lose mighty rage, 1 BAB (this almost entirely offsets the strength bonus on its own) and tireless rage, which is very inconvenient (it adds a minute downtime between rages after every combat, or requires you to dispel fatigue after every combat). You also arent taking the best bloodlines, lose a bonus feat, and lose useful features from some of the better archetypes, like animal companion scaling for the bloodrider, and up to 4 additional rage powers for the primalist. Its a passable choice for the base bloodrager with a draconic bloodline (mainly for the extra bite attack if you dont mind the inconvenience of no tireless rage), but when considering the better bloodlines are archetypes, its clearly a downgrade. The fundamental problem is that it offers unspectacular melee combat bonuses at a cost of at least 1 caster level, and does so for a range of classes that arent generally at all competent in melee, and the specialised melee builds that do exist for the qualifying classes (mainly for bloodrager, eldrictch scion, browfur transmuter and skald builds) are clearly better off not taking this prestige class in terms of their overall effectiveness. If you want to take a 5 level dip for an actual martial class, this is a very hard sell. You will lose 2 BAB (and therefore scaling with power attack or equivalent feats) and 5 levels of class features. +4 strength, a bite attack, and extremely weak spell casting is unlikely to be worth it. Should a mutation warrior give up weapon mastery, grand mutagen, 2 bonus feats and a rank of weapon training for this? Obviously not. Should a demonslayer give up improved quarry and +2 favoured enemy bonus, a bonus feat and levels from their animal companion for this? Obviously not. And the same is true of trading in 2 BAB and 5 levels of class features for almost every good martial archetype. The dip clearly isnt worth it.
The AC bonuses are extremely nice for sorcerer, though, and it’s a solidly decent melee. If you’re a Draconic Bloodline, the opportunity cost’s pretty minimal, especially since you’re still progressing the bloodline.
@@murlocknight1427 3 caster levels is NOT minimal. The effects spell duration, spell pen, damage scaling and costs you a significant number of spell slots including 9th level spells. Then there is the fact that you have to take a dragon bloodline. Its decent for an elemental blaster (due to its level 1 feature only), but that's it. Actually progressing your bloodline beyond that provides only minor benefit. And what you get in exchange, a bit of extra health and AC, +2BAB and +4 strength and a few other minor features is nowhere near enough to make a pure sorcerer a decent weapon wielder or tank. Its an absolutely terrible trade. If you wanted to make a sorcerer warrior, you are FAR better off taking eldritch knight. If you wanted to be tankier and were prepared to sacrifice 3 caster levels to do so, you would be much better off taking 1 level scaled fist 2 levels paladin for massive AC and save bonuses. I wouldn't recommend it, but its definitely a better option.
It’s one caster level if you’re a Draconic Sorcerer, not three. You still get ninth level spells, just not as many slots for them. Second, third, and fourth levels in DD both grant the effective casting level of another level of your casting class. First doesn’t, so you do lose one level, but that’s it. Fifth also doesn’t, but if you’re doing a four level dip, that doesn’t matter.
@@murlocknight1427 No, 10 levels DD is 3 caster levels. If you mean a 4 level dip for an otherwise pure sorc, why would you ever want to do this? +1 BAB, a bite attack and +2 strength modifier will not make sorc an even remotely competent warrior. You are still far better off with +1 caster level and the extra 9th level spell pick.
Eldritch knight is not only good for melee, but also useful for hellfire ray spam, you get 3 fighter bonus feats including weapon specialization, just spend all those 3 feats on ray, you also get 10 level full attack bonus which makes you hit more often
Dragon disciple is so funny.
"You need magic to be eligible for this class!"
"Oh cool, does this class enhancey magical capabilities at all?"
"No, quite the .opposite, actually. It will hinder your spell progression and make you into a much better martial class!"
Basically LOL
@@Chrupignat my dude I play dnd for almost 20 years now, I know all of that lol
That's why it's only 1st level spells and not 2nd or 3rd like most others.
@@Chrupignat It's okay, all is good. But yeah, it's funny that dragon deisciple was meant to be a sorcerer thing but technically bards could also do it lol
My first playthrough I did a dragon build. Eldritch Scion magus, scaled fist, dragon disciple, dragon ferocity. Doubles your str damage on every attack. Great AC, spells for buffs, but I don't need that many spells
Dragon Disciple also opens up Mythic Ascended Bloodlines with their various immunities depending on dragon type. Nothing like walking through lava (Midnight Isles) or shrugging off paralysis because your Mythic Bloodline provides immunity. Add cross-blooded sorcerer and you can get three sets of immunities...
Nice! Didn't even consider that.
Actually 4 levels in dragon disciple give you +3 and not just +2 AC since you also gains the benefits of the draconic bloodline and it gives you even more AC.
Yeah, those 4 levels are really stacked.
The 4 dips in dragon disciple will still get u +3 bab, only 1 short of full.
With the +4 in str, it's more to hit than a full martial of 4 levels + some dmg.
Wizard after taking the Martial weapons proficiency can take Eldritch knight at 6th
Good call out.
ive done that with nenio before its not bad
Eldritch Knight is pretty much perfect for a Arthas Menethil build becoming the Lich King. I like to think of Dragon Disciple as a 5 level multi-class (1 level Stigmatized Witch, Wolf-Scarred, Iceplant, Lizard familiar, 4 levels DD) for a martial character than something tacked on to a spellcaster
Interesting that's a really cool way to pick it up.
I feel like initiative is a skill you don't notice until you lose it or if your constantly checking logs. Like, bad rolls, especially on turned based can borderline kill off your party in some fight were good rolls can let you eliminate key threats at times. I don't think it's vital but I feel like it's more important than people give it credit for.
I think you notice Initiative a lot in turn based but in RTwP it's not something people pay attention to nearly as much.
so technicly a stigmatized witch could be a dragon discible... not that it would do any good but it is possible.... i just want to see ember embrace her golden dragon energy
😂😂
That's one way to get several bites quickly: wolf-scared face for the curse, straight into DD
Honestly, I take it for Ember because Level 1 buffs her AC.
Whenever I want to do melee focused build with my caster I always pick Eldtrich knight for my casters. Seeing how you explained Dragon Disciple makes me want to do a an abyssal/red dragon bloodrager cause of their chaotic nature
Awesome!
Eldritch knight is the strongest prestige class by a significant margin imo. Near full spell caster progression, full BAB progression, bonus feats, spell critical, and unlocking weapon specialisation - and more importantly mythic weapon specialisation - is extremely strong. Honestly, taking a pure wizard over this is pretty hard to justify. Even if you dont want to invest anything in strength, you can use death's consonant to great effect.
I think this leaves dragon disciple trailing in the dust. The benefits are much stronger, apply to a broader range of classes, and at a much smaller sacrifice to caster level. Spell critical also actually enables a truly hybrid playstyle, allowing full attack actions and spellcasting at the same time.
The Eldritch Knight's spell critical ability is great. The ability works for ranged attacks too so you can build a ranged EK. With a crossbow or dual wielding throwing weapons, you'll still crit pretty often. Spell critical also quickens any spell you can cast, so you can use it on spells from a mythic class or if you're Legend and have a different caster class, you can use it on the other class' spells.
What I dislike about EK is that it takes so long to get spell critical, yes they get extra feats, full BAB and 9/10 casting levels, but they don't have any unique class abilities until level 10. It would be cool if they got maybe a weaker version of spell critical in earlier levels, like maybe it works for level 1-3 spells at first, then 4-6, and finally all spells at level 10.
Arcanist qualifies for DD too so if you want to build a shapeshifting Brownfur Transmuter that fights, 4 levels of DD can boost your combat abilities quite a bit.
Duelist and sword saint int to ac stack, so it's actually decent rather than mediocre. I don't think it's supposed to stack since it's literally the.same ability, has the same name and all. But it does stack
Really?! Wow that definitely doesn't seem like it should work.
@@SlanderedGaming maybe it has been patched, but it used to stack
Edit: just googled it here and yup, still stacks.
@@moonlight2870 I can assure that, as it is now, they do stack. I have this build for woljif and he can get crazy high AC
Can't wait for hellknight.
One thing to mention about Dragon Disciple is that, unlike other prestige classes, it doesn't give you caster levels every level after getting the spellcasting feature, only 3/4. This is another reason to only dip, as it will slow down not only your BAB but your caster level as well, compared to say EK that gives you all of both. Only stay with it if the late-level abilities are worth it to you.
Oh interesting I didn't realize that great call out.
Hi Slandered Gaming, thanks for your content, it really helps me understand and appreciate this game better. I am on my third run of WotR, and I have a lot of cool ideas for my future runs, in parts thanks to your explanation of the different classes.
I have a different take on the duelist though. On my first run, i went for a 10 Rogue/10 Duelist Azata Elf with estoc as my main weapon, and it worked very well. Basically, you just have to max your Dex and Int, it lets you have ton of AC. With haste (which as you already said multiple times, you should always have), you have a very tanky, very fast damage dealer. The bonus against attacks of opportunity and an already high AC make you able to run through melee and reach the spellcasters and archers without taking damage, and kill them very quickly. Also, you get a cloak in the Ivory Labyrinth that boosts your parry, making you even more tanky and able to protect your teammates.
Also, the ultimate ability, crippling critical, stacks nicely with the added effects on your sneak attacks provided by the rogue class, letting you debuff your enemies quite harshly. With the feat that extends the critical threat range of your weapon, the estoc gets a 15-20 threat range, which is huge.
Now, I'm not a minmaxer nor a pro a this game, but i found it to work very well. Also very fun, imo :)
Thank you! When I comb back through the rankings I'll definitely take this into account.
Duelist has some pretty good synergy with sword saint magus if you do the legend path. From what I've played through, it seems like the canny defense stacks, and parry can be great because it allows you to riposte. If you're using a good crit weapon, which you should be doing with sword saint, you can basically get a full attack on an enemy, then parry/riposte on its turn to finish it off, all the while giving you more opportunities for sword saint's insane crit multipliers. The negative from an enemy's size matters a lot less with legend as well, because your attack bonus probably going to be much higher than that of most enemies. The crippling critical ability is also a nice bonus for a crit focused build.
With combat reflexes, you can get a lot of benefit from doing a respec when you're level 10 or higher, then throwing those five levels into duelist. That way you're never really missing out on the feat, and you get to avoid wasting a feat.
In the tabletop there are better versions of this though, because flamboyant arcana is a thing, as well as arcane deed.
I haven't tried it myself, but I bet a Trickster to Legend Sword Saint focused on Aldori dueling swords with both Aldori Defender and Duelist you could probably be an untouchable crit god that smacks any enemy who tries to attack you back so hard that they don't get a second swing... Another one on the list for Midnight Isles!
@@AncroKT Yeah even without Legend/Trickster this was a go-to build for pajama tanking in Kingmaker and is still very good in wrath. Scaled Fist 1 Sword Saint 9 Duelist 10. In WotR you probably wanna give up a duelist level for Oracle for Charisma instead of dex to AC and use the Intelligence Bardiche. It's a little silly though and not really necessary, there are easier ways to give up less and stack sufficient AC, but it's pretty entertaining.
in kingmaker i did duelist/magus sword saint. I really liked how sky high i could stack my damage with my ac being crazy.
Bloodrager primalist 16/ dragon disciple 4 is the way to go. I don't often find myself using offensive spell casts so having less spell slots and less spell levels isn't really a downside.
Not really. After accounting the loss of 1 BAB and mighty rage, you are only coming out with +1 damage on hit, and no AB bonus. Factor in power attack progression, and you will very likely do less damage per hit.
You also lose tireless rage, which, whilst not a power level issue, is certainly very inconvenient. 1 minute fatigue after every combat blocks charging and enraging, so either you wait after every fight, or you dispel fatigue after every fight. This is a PITA.
Plus, you will be restricted to a bad bloodline. You could be taking abyssal for example.
As for bloodrager spellcasting, yes, its very bad. So rather than take primalist, which trades in nearly all bloodline powers to get the good rage powers and essential be a barbarian with very bad spellcasting, take mad dog, get the same rage powers, and a full animal companion with some very useful bonus features and which you can mount to negate the loss of defensive features for the archetype, in exchange for really crappy spell casting.
@@notalefty999 Very interesting. Didnt know that.
Duelist +Aldory Swordlord seems nice to have them both. Shared theme and focusing on one-handed duelling sword.
Yup my Blade build on the channel was focused around that.
I barely use prestige classes but Eldritch Knight is my mostly used. It is a good class for many arcane casters.
Eldrich knight is super strong. Played one with lich mythic lately, it was really good.
You also can get some weapon proficiencies through your background.
Yup that's true didn't include that.
Canny defence is actually pretty useful for pyjama tanks, as it will give yet another attribute that your AC scales off. After accounting for gear bonuses to stats, you certainly dont need to have intelligence as a primary stat for this to be useful. Personally, I find the benefits of sword saint more useful overall, but this has better BAB and offers passive defensive benefits that the sword saint doesnt. If you already have access to a shield bonus and mirror image (several mythic paths can offer this), the duelist may be better for an unarmoured tank than sword saint as a means of scaling AC with intelligence.
I would point out that the guarantee of +2 Int means if you're REALLY a munchkin type; you could just take 10 Int to start - and wait for the Int boost: Problem = Skill points are not retroactively added like the HP from Con & Toughness. So it's a little punitive to do that, unless you really know the two skills you want - or go human for the fast learner feat to potentially offset.
I'm not actually sure you could swing a Duelist/Dragon Disciple build - but if you can somehow, the +2 Int might be more useful, since Int would then be applied to AC (If I recall right - but you may end up feat starved for the requirements to get to duelist, and it would be a VERY SPECIFIC by class per level build, so massively easy to muck up) *9 Duelist/* 9 DD = 18. So probably would have to use Fighter Bonus Feats to get Duelist Unlocked and Bloodrager. Plus pick only certain relavent feats at the first level. o. O
Duelist works really well at increasing the survivability of your Rogue. Dragon Disciple is fun if you take something like Ley Line Guardian since it boosts Intelligence and a Witch's poor BAB.
Blind sense isn't useless, it lets you target invisible enemies, essentially putting em on the map for u so u can't be ambushed.
Eldritch Knight was the bone thrown to people who loved Fighter/mage in 2nd edition AD&D I can't remember for sure so correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it was worse prior to getting ported over to Pathfinder, it's definitely useful but I prefer Magus and it's subclasses for that particular niche.
I'm looking forward to when we get to Mystic Theurge I've always liked the idea of a divine/ arcane magic hybrid and I haven't seen much coverage of it.
I never used Edlritch Knight in DnD so couldn't comment.
Ive never used a prestige class ngl
Sometimes they fit but a lot of them are weak.
Honestly something with access to Martial power and Hexes, leading into Dragon Disciple (White Dragon) 4 and going Lich seems like the best way to make the Warcraft Lich King.
Yeah that sounds like a cool combo.
The build I solo the game with goes: Scaled Fist 1, Sorcerer 4, Dragon Disciple 4, Eldritch Knight 10, and Sorcerer 1.
Eldritch knight can be taken as your 6th level if you take martial weapon proficiency as a feat
Currently in my first play through of WOTR going down the EK route as it’s the class of a old favourite character of mine from pathfinder table top
As I mentioned in my comment on the first part of the Prestige classes overview, I always forget that Aldori Swordlord and Duelist are different prestige classes, so I honestly can't remember if my favorite Kingmaker playthrough was as a Swordsaint Magus Duelist, or as a Swordsaint Magus Aldori Swordlord 😆
😂😂
You can respec duelist when you hit lvl 4 to get combat reflexes for free. Big fan of the duelist class but its more for rp than effectiveness.
Respeccing is only available if you play on a difficulty lower than Core.
You think youll revisit prestige classes with all the patches and updates changes or not enough to justify it?
Dragon disciple 4 and eldritch knight 10 go hand in hand with joy.
I personally enjoy a fauchard attack of oppritunity build to maximize your reach and the number of crits you get increasing your odds of getting a crit.
Nice!
Miss the days in D&D 3.5 when RDD's are OP
my instinctual warrior did a dragon disciple dip and that boy was yolked
😂
10 lvl rogue/10 lvl duelist with high Intel for skills. trickster with use magic device 3 so you become an equal lvl wizard. spells defence skills and sneak attack.
Nice. Trickster has so many different uses.
I'm not sure if it's just me but Dragon Disciple was kinda bugged when I tested with a blood rager
Specifically, the rate on which you earn bonus feats, also, it gets even weirder when you get a second bloodline
Interesting that was not my experience with it but things may have changed. I made a build with it during Beta.
Even if you'd picked up a free feat earlier you can still retrain to take full benefit.
Core difficulty and above won't allow you to retrain.
How well does Sorcerer Multiclass with EK? Honestly sounds like a better Dragon Scion
Worse than wizard, though its certainly not terrible. Firstly, you lose one level of caster progression, and a sorcerer is already 1 level behind in terms of reaching new spell levels anyway. Also, sorcs rely a lot more on class levels than wizards, the later being almost entirely about caster level. EK levels will give you no bloodline features or spells. For 9th level spells, for example, you will only have 2 spell picks.
Also, there is death's consonant, which is a weapon that uses intelligence for hit and damage modifiers. This is a huge advantage for an eldritch knight, as you dont have to choose between combat and spellcasting capability. Nothing comparable exists for charisma. You do have sage sorcerer as an option though.
you do not really need to level up magus up to 20. You can stop at level 10 or 12 depending on preference and go to Eldritch Knight from there. Really solid combination.
Eldritch knight on a magus is a huge waste. Magus get 3/4 BAB progression and much weaker spellcasting than a full caster. They also get access to weapon specialisation and greater weapon focus by default. You also get spell combat, which performs a similar function to spell critical and you have a heavy reliance on swift actions to use your arcane pool, so you cannot use this alongside spell critical anyway.
By taking eldritch knight on a magus vs a wizard, you gain far less benefit to BAB progression, no additional benefit from mythic feats in the form of a large bonus to mythic weapon focus and access to mythic weapon specialisation and you are gaining caster level progression in a much weaker class.
And aside from the relative benefit being much smaller, the cost is far greater. Magus have much stronger class features than wizard, (a wizard is overwhelmingly about caster rather than class level). Losing weapon enchant ranks means you can apply fewer enchants at the same time. You have a smaller arcane pool, and you lose access to bane weapon and I believed devoted weapon as well, which are the strongest enchants you can apply. You also lose expanded spell access (no sense vitals for you) and true magus (which is 2AB, largely negating the extra BAB progression of EK). And this is just the base magus. For the strongest archetype, arcane rider, you cripple your animal companion and lose greater arcane ride, which really sucks.
A wizard gets FAR more out of eldritch knight, and sacrifices far less.
@@notalefty999 nice breakdown. thx, honestly.
Also the class features that you get on most of the Magus classes at levels 19 and 20 are very strong.
... it might just be me, but if you go DD when you have cross-blooded with the 2nd Bloodline as a Dragon, you regain all the passives being cross-blooded usually denied you. And you can take mythic to get another bloodline so youend up with 3 full bloodlines...? I think. Might have been patched out.
Yikes. I didn't test that but if it works then it's definitely a bug.
As a Lich enjoyer i offended that Eldritch Knight is NOT S tier. Urgathoa is VERY unhappy with that decision.
😂😂
I only SLIGHTLY disagree about Duelist. I think it's very SLIGHTLY better, probably a C. The key is that you pretty much need to know you want to make a Duelist from the start and warp your entire build to focus specifically on it. That includes what feats to take and, importantly, what feats NOT to get to avoid redundancy. It basically hangs by the thread that is role-playing potential.
Also, here is a list of EVERYTHING that can get you spontaneous arcane spells
All Arcanist (Int)
All Bard (Cha)
All Bloodrager except Mixed-Blood Rager (Cha)
Magus - Eldritch Scion (Cha)
Rogue - Eldritch Scoundrel (Int)
All Skald (Cha)
All Cha Sorcerers except Sylvan Sorcerer (Cha)
Witch - Ley-Line Guardian and Stygmatized Witch (Int or Cha)
Honestly, I think you skipped some interesting ideas in Bard, Skald, and possibly even Eldritch Scoundrel since those also function as hybrids that want the melee improvement the class gives while also not being so spell-focused that losing caster levels is a death knell. I know you weren't being comprehensive when you listed Bloodragerm Eldritch Scion, and Sorcerer, but just wanted to add those very interesting options.
Good call outs. I focus on condensing video length because I figure people who want more information will read the comments and/or make a comment asking the questions they have.
@@SlanderedGaming Yup, that's a pretty good strategy for managing workload too.
I have a few questions with eldritch knight, first, does anyone know if the fighter levels stack with the sword saint ability that does basically the same thing?
Second, in the case of a legend playthrough, does anyone know if it can increase your caster level past 20?
Yes to your first question. To your second question Caster Levels do not stack so the class would have to have something that pushes your caster level higher. Legend itself will not do it.
I have small suggestion about look of your MC for high rank class. You always used alchemist class and human race, so maybe changing for every video for another class and race it would be nice. I know, there isn't anything practical in such changing, it would improve visual effects in my opinion.
The rest of the series is already recorded but that's a good call out for next time thank you.
Couldn’t you theoretically get Eldritch Knight at level 6? You start as a Wizard, Witch, or Sorcerer, take Martial Weapon Proficiency as a Feat and then take this class at lvl 6? It wouldn’t be a good build, but I think that’s the earliest, unless I missed something…
Nope you are right. I keep forgetting about taking Martial Weapon Proficiency as a feat since I never do it.
I have to hard disagree on Duelist, Samori. I am playing through as a Legend. I'm mixing Thug, Aldori Defender and Duelist to play as Mad Martigan, the greatest swordsman who ever lived. My AC is sky high, I can make over a dozen attacks of opportunity per turn, with the Aldori abilities, Crane Riposte, and the duelist riposte, plus ever ready and finesse training with piranha strike, engaging my Legend is absolutely suicide. If you miss him, he hits you, if you hit him, he hits you, if you come close to hitting him, he hits you, and every swing is dealing MASSIVE damage (as of my current progress I think I'm at +26 damage per swing)
A+ class all the way. Even just a 5 level dio to get riposte, or a 2 level dip to get parry, Duelist is A+. I haven't even gone down in combat once this entire playthrough, and there's been some fights where it's just safer to buff him up and send him in alone rather than risk my party members. He's an untouchable God of destruction because of Parry and riposte
The rankings are not based on Mythic Path synergy. Without Legend is Duelist an A+ class?
@@SlanderedGaming I'm gonna be totally honest, in the last 2 days I ended up reclassing him so you are right, and I forgot I dropped this comment xD around the type you go to the Abyss, Duelist seems to really fall off
the eldritch knight lacks some extra feats :(
How many feats do you expect it to have? It gets 3 feats over 10 levels (the classes with the most bonus feats only get 2 more for 10 levels), full BAB progression, nearly full spellcaster progression, access to fighter specific feats, and spell critical as a capstone, which is a fantastic ability.
If you stacked on significantly more bonus features, it would be clearly overpowered.
Dragon disciple was so much better in 2e DnD and has steadily diminished over the new editions
Dragon disciple is not an S. Level 5-10 are clearly not worth it, but even the first 4 levels are a bad choice in the large majority of cases. For sorcerers, this is a bad pick. +1 BAB, a bite attack (and by the way, this doesnt stack if you use dragon shape) and +4 strength will still fall far short of making you an effective melee combatant for most sorcerer builds and it locks you into a dragon bloodline, which means you arent taking abyssal bloodline, whose +6 inherent bonus equals the dragon disciple bonus even after account for the lack of stacking with tomes, and incurs no caster level penalty. You also arent taking sylvan sorcerer, the opportunity cost of which is huge. The dragon bloodline itself just isnt very good, mainly benefitting elemental blasters, not melee orientated sorcerers.
For arcanist, if you are going for a melee build, you want to take brownfur transmuter, and missing out on powerful transformation costs you +6 strength after accounting from the capstone ability adding a stacking +2 strength bonus to both size (frightful aspect), polymorph (dragonshape) and enhancement (bull's strength or transformation), which again overshadows the +4 strength bonus from 4 levels of DD, and you are losing a caster level. Worse, this +6 strength lost may only be +2 strength net loss for you, but its +4 or +6 lost to all your other martial characters which you can buff with these spells (depending on whether you buff them with dragon form or not).
For eldritch scion, again, you should take abyssal bloodline. Also, the loss of the last 4 levels of class features will cost you true magus, a rank of magus arcana and arcane weapon enchant and expanded spell access. True magus and expanded spell access give you +2 AB and sense vitals, which averages 17.5 damage per hit. Abyssal offers a better strength bonus and doesnt cost you these class features.
Skald should never consider giving up its capstone feature for the DD bonuses. Its far too useful. Also, you wont have the option to select the crit multiplier increase rage power from the lethal stance line until level 17, and you will lose scaling on inspire rage, lethal stance and beast totem bonuses for your entire party. Similarly, bards lose scaling on their songs for the entire party, including bonuses to hit and damage, and the DCs of their offensive songs, as well as the deadly song (which admittedly isnt generally great, but its possible to get the DC quite high with the right mythic path).
Of the two witch archetypes that are spontaneous casters, if you made these melee witches this MIGHT be an upgrade, but I cannot imagine this is likely to be a good option as neither archetype lends itself to melee combat. Your patron spells are tied to class not caster level, so kiss goodbye to weird or mass heal for example. You will miss out on grand hexes (again, not generally great, but the DCs can be high with the right build) and scaling of your hex DCs across the board.
For bloodrager, you lose mighty rage, 1 BAB (this almost entirely offsets the strength bonus on its own) and tireless rage, which is very inconvenient (it adds a minute downtime between rages after every combat, or requires you to dispel fatigue after every combat). You also arent taking the best bloodlines, lose a bonus feat, and lose useful features from some of the better archetypes, like animal companion scaling for the bloodrider, and up to 4 additional rage powers for the primalist. Its a passable choice for the base bloodrager with a draconic bloodline (mainly for the extra bite attack if you dont mind the inconvenience of no tireless rage), but when considering the better bloodlines are archetypes, its clearly a downgrade.
The fundamental problem is that it offers unspectacular melee combat bonuses at a cost of at least 1 caster level, and does so for a range of classes that arent generally at all competent in melee, and the specialised melee builds that do exist for the qualifying classes (mainly for bloodrager, eldrictch scion, browfur transmuter and skald builds) are clearly better off not taking this prestige class in terms of their overall effectiveness.
If you want to take a 5 level dip for an actual martial class, this is a very hard sell. You will lose 2 BAB (and therefore scaling with power attack or equivalent feats) and 5 levels of class features. +4 strength, a bite attack, and extremely weak spell casting is unlikely to be worth it. Should a mutation warrior give up weapon mastery, grand mutagen, 2 bonus feats and a rank of weapon training for this? Obviously not. Should a demonslayer give up improved quarry and +2 favoured enemy bonus, a bonus feat and levels from their animal companion for this? Obviously not. And the same is true of trading in 2 BAB and 5 levels of class features for almost every good martial archetype. The dip clearly isnt worth it.
Damn laid out like that I see your point. Okay we will revisit this in the final list.
The AC bonuses are extremely nice for sorcerer, though, and it’s a solidly decent melee. If you’re a Draconic Bloodline, the opportunity cost’s pretty minimal, especially since you’re still progressing the bloodline.
@@murlocknight1427 3 caster levels is NOT minimal. The effects spell duration, spell pen, damage scaling and costs you a significant number of spell slots including 9th level spells. Then there is the fact that you have to take a dragon bloodline. Its decent for an elemental blaster (due to its level 1 feature only), but that's it. Actually progressing your bloodline beyond that provides only minor benefit.
And what you get in exchange, a bit of extra health and AC, +2BAB and +4 strength and a few other minor features is nowhere near enough to make a pure sorcerer a decent weapon wielder or tank.
Its an absolutely terrible trade.
If you wanted to make a sorcerer warrior, you are FAR better off taking eldritch knight.
If you wanted to be tankier and were prepared to sacrifice 3 caster levels to do so, you would be much better off taking 1 level scaled fist 2 levels paladin for massive AC and save bonuses. I wouldn't recommend it, but its definitely a better option.
It’s one caster level if you’re a Draconic Sorcerer, not three. You still get ninth level spells, just not as many slots for them. Second, third, and fourth levels in DD both grant the effective casting level of another level of your casting class. First doesn’t, so you do lose one level, but that’s it. Fifth also doesn’t, but if you’re doing a four level dip, that doesn’t matter.
@@murlocknight1427 No, 10 levels DD is 3 caster levels. If you mean a 4 level dip for an otherwise pure sorc, why would you ever want to do this? +1 BAB, a bite attack and +2 strength modifier will not make sorc an even remotely competent warrior. You are still far better off with +1 caster level and the extra 9th level spell pick.
Eldritch knight is not only good for melee, but also useful for hellfire ray spam, you get 3 fighter bonus feats including weapon specialization, just spend all those 3 feats on ray, you also get 10 level full attack bonus which makes you hit more often
Oh cool so that probably makes it a really nice option for Devil builds.
That sounds awesome.