you have manga which are either intentionally or unintentionally a bit that for some its cast but the plot of the series is real nice like I love Loveless for its tone an dynamics but keep the MCs servant in a therapy filled cell-block
This is why I just let the waves of discourse crash over me. Idgafuuuuugg both sides are so knee deep in their black and white thinking but I'm sitting here slamming together mega man characters like they're Barbies in my beautiful mind
I just asked my partner if he ships bowser and Luigi and he said no. When I asked him why he said “I don’t think Luigi can take what bowser could give him. It would be too dangerous for poor little Luigi.”
I'm sorry but I have to very strongly (and respectfully) disagree with your view on Beauty and the Beast simply for one reason: Belle never sets out to fix the Beast (at least... not in the original movie. in the bad sequels she does but we don't talk about those). The Beast lays down rules for her, and she almost immediately breaks them and then leaves when he starts throwing things and getting all mad. She only actually sits down and talks to him when he starts treating her how she knows she deserves to be treated. When he yells, she yells and argues back. She only gives him props when he's nice to her, and that inspires him to change for her, not because she wants him to change. The Beast gives her the library to roam around in because he wanted to do something nice for her after realizing she's special and he's not been behaving nice to her. Belle's whole story is about 2 men (the Beast and Gaston) wanting her. Gaston wants her on his terms, and Beast originally does as well but realizes that's not the way to win her heart, and so genuinely decides to change. Not because he wants the curse undone, seeing as he lets her go at the expense of his own ticking clock that is the rose. But because he learns to love her, and wants her to feel that love in a way she will like. Belle doesn't ever have a scene like "If only the Beast was nice... wait, i can change him and make him nice!". She only ever really interacts with him when he IS nice, otherwise she's off doing her own thing in the castle.
These are really good points honestly! My little spiel by the end about people being aware of their own triggers is (over sharing a bit) how I am with Beast bc he has many qualities that line up with people in my life that I haaaate and it gets me MAAAD 🤣 But that’s just a me problem
the way i was doxxed on twitter when i was like 13 for saying i liked Apple white x raven queen from ever after high... but i was ALSO doxxed for saying i think shipping poppy with her dad was weird, so you really cant win
Omg "married" my dumb ass ears heard "burried" I thought this was just a random joke for the sake of being random (or a analogy for something I didn't undertsand)
Shipping culture has gotten so out of hand that anything outside of the mainstream in fandoms is considered weird at best and from the 7th layer of hell at worst. I think a lot of it stems from people trying to find a reason to dislike a ship when there isn't ever a need to. You can just dislike a ship, even if it isn't problematic. Let me multi-ship and crossover pair in peace
in the case of interspecies relationships, i’d like to bring up the harkness test. it consists of three elements 1) does the nonhuman have human level intelligence or above? 2) can it talk or otherwise communicate with language? and 3) is it of sexual maturity for its species? in the cases of bowjack and bowser, they have human intelligence, can speak english, and are adults, so they pass the test and can be reasonably considered “safe” for shipping purposes. a real life bison would not pass this test at all and that’s why it’d be disgusting. great points and great video athena!
@@sketchycat6223 it's brought up whenever i see this test being discussed 😭 i thought it was reasonable until that point cuz it's like ohhh hmm.. but i'm not being all that serious anyway
@@daylightcolorok, then let's simply add another set of criteria to the test: Is the non-human anthropomorphic or otherwise humanoid? Scooby-Doo is dog-like when it comes to his anatomy and isn't anthropomorphic, so therefore he fails the test. Bowser on the other hand is more humanoid due to being bipedal and having hands, so he passes.
Imo the Harkness test doesn't really persuade anyone, if you're trying to give a reason to date a fictional creature that doesn't...really work if the test itself implies feral animals are fine ykno Unless u add criteria of "is this creature anthropomorphic"
TL;DR She can enjoy problematic ships between two adult characters but suspending her disbelief and writing her own story around them but has her own boundaries and lines she won't cross
I in IRL clearly would not let two emotionally broken violent children stay that way IRL same with IRL am not letting the man who does not get how not legal his actions come across as wit there 13 year old master but I do dig there plot
I don't associate with either pro or anti shippers because really often these two types of people keep aggressively engaging with each other trying to change their minds or call each other out or whatever and it's so tiring to witness, I can't imagine why would anyone adopt either label and be so loud about it
well for me personally, it's bc being proship is basically just having a default healthy fandom mindset: ship and let ship, don't like don't read, mind your business and don't be a dick to others yknow? and yeah i know that some people will look at this discourse and dismiss it as "stupid chronically online bullshit", but UNFORTUNATELY some people's lives have literally been ruined bc of this discourse so it's not as pointless as it may seem. fandom spaces didn't use to be like this. back in the day getting doxxed over a fictional ship was something that was pretty much unheard of, but nowadays it's an everyday occurrence on twitter and tiktok. and i fucking *HATE* it. so yeah, that's why i identify with the proship label (sorry for the long ass text lmao)
This! I remember trying to block all the hashtags and people who started it and both sides still kept appearing every day on fаndom tags because they were DELIBERATELY not putting up hashtags and creating side accounts to clash
exactly exactly!! “are you pro or anti” I assess whether I personally like something under its individual circumstances? I don’t harass people even if I don’t like said thing? I go outside n have real life friends? why would I ever have the time or will to fight about ships online when I have yknow. A Job
@@Starbat011 I mean like how could people think that someone is a pro shipper for shipping bowser and Luigi, they’re both so silly there’s obviously no harm being done!!
I think that started on TikTok. When the "big boom" for Bowuigi hit (one of the trailers for the Mario movie had just come out), there were some people talking about the age gap between Bowser and Luigi. There was a misconception that Bowser was like... 80 or something in turtle years, I think? While Luigi was thought to be 20 something. So there was the big age gap that people were worried about, which made it look really problematic (nevermind that Bowser is technically just an abusive POS in canon most of the time anyway). At some point, people started defending the ship by talking about how - in human years - Bowser would be around Luigi's age, anyway. So then the controversy died down. It could have had something to do with the fact that Bowser is kind of an animal, too, while Luigi was a human (even though I know for a fact that monsterfuckers exist) but I mostly just saw the age gap thing. (As a Bowuigi shipper, I never really understood the whole problem with it. I don't know their ages, I just kinda headcanoned that the two were in their 30s or 40s.)
i could go on a tangent about how sam was experiencing comphet when she dated freddie and she’s actually a lesbian but i fear my autism would show too much
@@samlewis6487 okay but This is so incredibly real to me. I also hc him as trans so he often forces crushes on girls (he knows Carly is generally unattainable) to try to pass more.
@@AthenaPOfficialI think at this point, no matter what you do in life, someone will ALWAYS be offended. Like talking about one thing is offensive, but then not talking about the thing is also offensive. No one can win anymore lmao
I think a lot of the pro and anti ship discourse is just based on the individuals. Sometimes the pros are aggressive and sometimes the antis are, sometimes the antis just have a boundary and sometimes the pros just want people to be able to write whatever they want. It’s one of those things that can be nuanced but people treat it like it isn’t.
I tried to approach the nuance with addressing the harassment I received from both sides in the beginning as well as me acknowledging that people need to be aware of their own triggers instead of forcing them onto others. The only reason I sound harsher when it comes to pro shippers is because I feel like the consequences of that are much more severe. Yes antis can lead to cyber bullying which is bad I’ll never say it’s not buuuut compared to minors being preyed on yeah it’s not as severe
@@AthenaPOfficial There have been a few cases of big anti-ship groups being grooming circles led by adults, and the whole doxxing obsession. I'd say, like with all things, there are good and bad on both sides. Obviously it's never okay to hurt kids, but I figured you may want to know that both sides have done it.
@@echosbento I feel like, though, in that case, they wouldn't actually be anti-shippers? They may use the anti-ship label online to sort of hide under the "kindness" it implies, but if they are literal groomers then that's inherently not anti-ship and anti-shippers heavily believe in how the fictional side of relationships can be bad BECAUSE it can promote things like grooming. I'd say that, even though they are DESCRIBED as anti-shippers, I don't think I'd be wrong in saying these labels are self-assigned or based on their public online activity as opposed to their private lives. Because anyone who grooms IRL doesn't disagree with grooming, simply. I do think some anti-shippers can go really far but I've seen fewer anti-shippers bullying people than I have pro-shippers supporting adult x minor pairings because, from what I've seen, many anti-shippers just use the label because it's easier to identify that they don't agree with minor x adult and incestuous pairings but many are still fine with pairings like Bowser x Luigi, but pro-shippers tend to use the label when they DO agree with the more extreme stuff. I still think there are bad elements to antis! I can see a lot of them disliking queer pairings or disliking ships that seem to be bad even though the whole point is to be commentary on it's toxicity, and cyberbullying is never excusable. Some antis I've met have also been very strict around pairings who used to dislike each other but were redeemed which isn't a great outlook in my opinion. But I agree with Athena in saying that most instances of a small number of antis being hateful are quite minor in comparison to quite a larger number of pros promoting cp and the idea that stuff like that is fine if it's fictional. As someone who used to be in online spaces with antis, one of our main rules was "don't bully pro-shippers, a lot of them are younger people using it as an unhealthy coping mechanism, the furthest you should go is educating them as long as they're in your age range and blocking them if not or if they don't respond well", but I don't think I've seen many pro-shippers saying one of their main rules is to not ship minors with adults. Sorry if that came across as rude, and sorry that I went on a load of tangents unrelated to my OG point, I just think you're confusing what antis actually are versus people who call themselves antis but are not!!
what about both one ship I have seen recently is two very poetic characters who go on a crash course of mental issues an emotional stress which sometimes have a fanfic where they play party games with someones OC
Bowser and Luigi give me major Lego Batman and Joker. Which I was just thinking. Batman and Joker is another ship that divides ppl. There's multiple variations of Batman and Joker's dynamic but has the same conclusion: Batman needs the Joker and vice versa. Lego Batman and The Tell Tale Batman series humanize their dynamic. While (from what I remember) the comics and in the Redhood movie is super toxic(I mean Joker almost killed Jason but even THAT wasn't enough.). Idk this is just my food for thought. Okay bye!
as someone who has been a huge Batman fan for a very long time, i disagree. The Joker needs Batman, but Batman doesn't need The Joker. The Joker also has a very twisted and disturbing level of obsession when it comes to Batman, which sometimes, but not always, manifests as romantic or sexual feelings/attraction. Bruce however doesn't return these feelings because The Joker is a physical manifestation of his worst fears and what he hates the most about society. it's shown time and time again that becoming The Joker is his worst nightmare/greatest fear, especially since they're two sides of the same coin, which is a huge part of why he despises The Joker and what he represents. one thing that is interesting is how often The Joker has lured Batman into a Tunnel of Love as part of a scheme, most notably in The Killing Joke and The Dark Knight Returns. TDKR is honestly the most brutal imo with Joker attempting to murder Batman while also being very heavy-handed with the sexual innuendos, also claiming that "this is the day that they've both been waiting for", meaning a big climax where one of them will kill the other; the fight ending with Batman killing The Joker in self defense, and Joker laughing because he finally got exactly what he wanted from Batman, leaving Bruce shaken and horrified. BatJokes is a ship that works well in AUs and sillier Batman stories like Lego Batman, but is really had to justify and get behind in more serious or darker stories, especially in the main DC Comics continuity with all of the highly disturbing things that The Joker has done throughout his long history. now I'd never judge someone for shipping these two, but it really depends on the context if this ship works or not imo. /srs
wtf u mean almost?? Jason was dead dead. He got revived but he was actually straight up murdered by the Joker. Also I remember hearing about the idea of three different Jokers in a comic (which is coincidentally gross with shipping), so I headcanon the Joker Dick Grayson fought was like the Lego Batman Joker, while the one who killed Jason is a completely different Joker, and the one in The Dark Knight Returns also being completely different from the other two. The first Joker was playful, loved to make other people laugh, very silver age-esque, loved Harley Quinn, and had a decent chance at being one of the rogues to occasionally be trusted, or allies with, or a functioning member of Gotham, real name being Jack White (who has a backstory, look it up!), and was just an all around jolly guy. The second Joker is the violent one, not very smart, impulsive, cruel, the one who hurt (or killed) most of the Bat-clan, was truly Evil, and was killed by Nightwing in Last Laugh, not getting resuscitated. The third Joker was the genius, the one who played mind games, created Joker-venom, was in TDKR, and is the only one still alive to this day. Maybe with a few other Jokers here and there, who died one way or another. (Maybe Batman DID kill the Joker at some point) Every Joker believes himself to be the one true Joker, is unaware of one another (probably due to the insanity), one of the reasons his identity is still unknown, too crazy treat (much less diagnose) in Arkham, keeps coming back from irrefutable death, and nobody else, including Harley Quinn, knows that there was ever more than one (except perhaps Nightwing, because he was around so long, Last Laugh, and because favoritism). (Srry long tangent about my au)
Beast is a situational villain. Everyone else in the castle became furniture or something. Two of the household goods had to be his parents. He is not an intentional villain. He's a teen.
@@AthenaPOfficial I think he was eleven in the original animated movie when he was cursed but there's theories that time stopped so nobody aged but if memory serves the rose lasted until his twenty-first birthday which implies aging and also I think there's some reference to him being eleven but it's been a while.
This is barely related to the video, but I want it to be known that in like 2014 or so, I was in an unlicensed production of Beauty and the Beast and I played a castle servant who got turned into a Wii controller.
If this was a comparison to Magneto, idk if it works. Similarly to Zuko, he's extremely appealing for his backstory and his iconic redemption arc (specifically Claremont's during Bronze Age). I didn't watch MHA up until bakugo gets "redeemed" or whatever, so I can't comment on that, but Magneto is a very deep character that is enjoyable as both a message and a person-character
this is really any character there are whole anime where the MC is full Villian in of themselves an everyone loves it the MC to one show laughed an said "This is humanity" when it was discovered countless children where murdered by a plot which ties into there trauma
I have a long history of liking trash characters being dragged kicking and screaming into being better people, OR dragging is attempted but they fail miserably. Bakugou is just one in a long line of horrible children I've tucked in my pocket. (And because I have multitudes he's only my second favorite. My first is Iida.)
yeah also he had his growth wich git undermined in the anime . the reason why people who had seen the anime hate baku so much is cause of how the animation and voice acting made him more aggressive.if we look at the newers chapters especially wesee that he has changed alooot btw sry for rant 😓
Some “shipping discourse” is common sense (don’t ship a child with an adult, don’t ship family members, maybe don’t ship a murderer with their victim (unless maybe an AU or is super unserious in canon), or a r4pist with their victim) and then this is the other side of that discourse, where it just comes down to “CHARACTER BAD THEREFORE SHIP IS BAD!” Or “SHIP BAD CAUSE ICKY” which is already incredibly funny (and slightly infuriating) to see lol
@@Starbat011 yes and no. Respectfully (and I have no idea if this is what you were saying/intending), some people use the whole “it’s fictional and these people aren’t real” as a crutch to avoid criticism far too often. Just because two characters aren’t real doesn’t mean that shipping them or writing fanfiction about them is all 100% okay. Like, ship whoever as long as they’re both either adults or both children, with no negotiations there, and obviously no nsfw stuff with the children. As well as probably not shipping abusers/victims, rapists/victims, lesbians/men, gay men/women, etc. I think people forget that just because something is fictional, it doesn’t mean that it can’t have real world impacts. South Park, for instance, as much as I love the show, I can critique it just as much. In 2005 (I think?) they had an episode about trans people and, while the episode and its events only impacted the characters, who are all fake, the messages of that episode and the events in it are still being used by right wing conservatives as a talking point for their views. Fiction will always have an impact on our real world, whether we like the implications of that or not.
@@artistic_lj Yes, fiction will have an effect but its not 1:1 as most people like you keep claiming it is. If fiction does affect rl so much, the oft mentioned propaganda by idiot politicians where video games make kids violent, for example, wouldve been proven 10x over ever since it was first stated. Whenever I see people policing others over their 'problematique' ships, telling others what to do in fiction, and accusing them of being actual pdfs and whatnot, Id roll my eyes and block you off my socials. I'd tell you to touch grass and go to therapy as you dont seem to have any idea how to separate fiction from reality. If you have so much time on your hands to push your moral high ground in fiction (Might as fkin well cancel old world mythological gods and the classical writers while were at it because some people think they deserve death for what sill things they make in fiction.), maybe consider going after issues that actually matter in real life instead.
One factor about it I don’t see discussed too often is ‘what platform is the content being posted in?’ Somewhere like AO3 or Tumblr, you can filter out and block tags of content that makes you uncomfortable. Don’t like a certain ship/trope? Yeet it away, and have peace of mind. But on platforms that have more loose filters or none at all, it can be difficult for people to avoid the content that could make them distressed.
Yes, but also you could just scroll away immediately if you happen to see something that you dislike. It takes more effort to leave a comment, send the OP a dm, or reply in any way.
I think this is really important because I don’t mind people making art I couldn’t personally stomach. If they didn’t, I wouldn’t be able to hear beautiful sentiments from Bojack. I just wish that filters or responsible tagging was more encouraged than just on those two sites. Some people are too young or too sensitive to handle content and don’t need to be jumpscared with NSFW when they just wanted to see art of their favorite characters. Even if I am starting to be more adventurous with what I read and watch, I could only do so feeling safe from having to engage when I wasn’t ready.
they way you explain how bower’s treatment of luigi helped luigi grow from mario and it bettered the brother’s relationship MAKES SO MUCH SENSE !!! and unless luigi is suffering from ptsd in the next movie, bowuigi is real in my brain (also omg that squidbob video sounds so fun)
Shipping can get heated and insane quick, no matter what fandom you're a part of. Sometimes it's fun to indulge in one's own headcanons or even canon, but other times people can be so infuriating and hostile if you ever so as lightly disagree with their prefered ship. If people can be down bad for the baddies, why is shipping baddies suddenly a crime?
Why there is discourse involving Bowser being shipped with a fellow adult character who isn't related to him? Like bruh he literally plays sports ball with Luigi like every Tuesday
about Creek and Barb, fans like to imagine Creek differently much more because of how forced his betrayal was, fanfics, headcans and aus exploring a more "human" side of him (for lack of a better word), and Barb, some they like her vibe and like her in general but agree that she could have a better redemption, and others just like her dynamic with Poppy (surprised that you didn't mention those who ship her with Viva, including me!😂)
I'm surprised to hear about people allegedly liking Creek, because I haven't encountered any such people in my consumption of Trolls fanfiction. I instead saw a recurring thread of people portraying Creek as much worse than I think he was in the movie, which is why I became something of a defender of him. Creek in the movie is the kind of guy who behaves perfectly decently as long as doing so isn't too difficult or dangerous, but who becomes corrupted very easily by hardship. He turns against his people to save his own skin, and that sucks. But I've seen a number of fics that cast him as a sociopath who abuses Poppy, bullies Branch, and manipulates everyone around him even in times of peace, and that just isn't supported by the movie.
@@augustrempelewert4377 Yeah, there are some people who are like that. But what I see most are fics and aus where he goes through a redemption arc and learns to be a better person. And sometimes that includes Floyd.
I’m also fine with anthro x humans. In fact, I want more of it in fiction. You’re right that we can’t always apply real life logic to fiction. Sometimes we overthink what is and isn’t problematic. I don’t think it’s good to attack people for liking ships we dislike. Keep in mind, I’m not a fan of ped0s or incest.
This is a really good example of media literacy in how some ships work and others don't. And while fictional ships don't necessarily reflect views on reality, how those ideas can start impacting reality and stop being fiction. Great video Also Bowigi is S tier. Cuz it's not a perfect dynamic, but it's a dynamic that can tell interesting stories or just make for some cute/funny moments.
I feel like most people who don't like Bakugou watched the anime in 2018 and don't know what's even happening anymore, which is fair. He's obviously not everyone's cup of tea but I feel like it's a bit unfair to see him as the character he was in chapter one instead of seeing him as what he is now:') (Also dw guys I don't blame you for leaving mha behind😭)
I left it behind only because funimation refused to work for me for a good year and then at that point I was like…. Well I’m not gonna catch up now hahaha
Yes! Thank you! I love him as a character because of how well his character growth was/is handled. In order to achieve his dream he has to work on himself first and he finally starts realizing that.
Yeah exactly. I liked him for his character growth, not because he's a jerk. Also he came across as the more interesting one while everyone else felt more trope-y and generic to me. Then again, I didn't get that far in the series so I could be wrong about that lol
yess especially if u have only seen the first few seasons the manga from day one is totally different in tone and in the newest chapters u can see how much their relationship has changed and improved its now a important part of the story idk but i feel like this is a instance where u can say that the manga was better sry for rant btwTvT
Yeah, I think this shipping thing is like when you like a villain. You may not like them as a person with their morals, but you think they're a good character for the story. It's actually an interesting thing to think about
Congrats on getting married soon! I would like to say "I hope you don't have to make another video like this" however that Squidbob defense sounds fun lol
I remember when Bowuigi was just a silly crackship that no one really knew about. Then it blew up one day and I literally couldn’t have been happier. That year it was popular felt like a dream. A nightmare at times, but mostly a beautiful dream. This ship I’ve been obsessed with since I was in middle school was like mainstream?? Omg… Thank you Bowuigi warriors for seeing the Bowuigi light, and although we’ve had some rough patches, we made it through and managed to gain some lifelong Bowuigi lovers so thank you. Thank you to the person who animated the scene that started it all. Why did you make it so homoerotic I don’t know, but maybe you were one of us all along. This video is amazing too! Thank you for discussing the S++ tier ship of all time!!
I enjoy the Bowuigi ship as well. It's the equivalent of the Wander/Lord Hater ship. A soft hearted individual paired up with an intimidating jerk who is actually just this insecure, bratty, teen that just wants to be loved.
I NEED TO SAY A THNG - Bowser has eight children who are the same species as him as they are similar in appearance to him - Lemmy, Larry, Morton, Wendy, Iggy, Roy, and Ludwig!!!
Can we just agree that bowser is kinda wholesome though? Like in his twisted way he really does like Peach. I personally think Bowser could be fixed with some friendship and therapy. AND WOULDNT WE ALL BE BETTER WITH SOME FRIENDSHIP AND THERAPY! He deserves happiness and if with not Peach then with Luigi or Kamek.
Speaking of ships and fanon, ngl what really attached me to the Barb/Poppy ship was the fanfic “Ms. Brightside” by solidburnreturned. It really develops Barb as a character and explores the aftermath of the second movie to the point where it’s implied that she’s even questioned as a leader in her own kingdom. She never pushes Poppy into anything and believes that she doesn’t want anything to do with her when in fact the opposite is true, and it’s all about Barb overcoming those personal hangups about deserving to be loved or not. I still can’t believe such a good story of lesbian yearning came from a fucking Trolls fic of all places but here we are. Do recommend!
I live by the old days of shipping. The “ship and let ship” don’t like it don’t interact days. Let people enjoy their silly OTPs. If someone doesn’t like a ship you do, simply go okay that’s cool and MOVE ON. If you don’t like something someone else does then simply go not my thing but you enjoy it how you wish and MOVE ON. And be two boats passing in the night. If you’re at all curious maybe ask “what do you like about it?” Or “why do you like it?” Maybe you’ll get a see a side that you hadn’t considered before. Doxxing and harassment is not how we as a whacky community of fictional shippers should treat each other. Also congrats on the wedding!🎉🎉🎉
You are aloud to like what you like. I personally think the problem is a difference between emotion and actions. What way we feel about character and relationships don't make sense. Evidently by the fact someone like Athena might like one ship but not like similar ships so reasons she herself doesn't understand. But it crosses a line when you push that on other people or in some way take it to the point you are hurting people in the real world. However Athena, please keep making videos explaining your options because I enjoy understanding why you like what you like and how you think.
I feel some people just want the moral high ground so to prove they're a Good Person(tm) they just jump at people for silly reasons, and that reaction to Bowser/Lugi thing is a classic example lol
I need to see someone discuss the shipping of Valentino in Hazbin Hotel. for some reason it seems like i’m in the minority for being uncomfortable with shipping him. my issue is that Valentino does not match the silly villain role, he canonically commute SA on the show and possibly worse, it just makes me uncomfortable to see him in “cutesy” ship art
@@achannel315 i get why ppl like their dynamic, it’s only weird to me when they are portrayed as a cute couple in the fan art. it’s like casting the character in a much different light than i feel is accurate
I'm probably wording this poorly so hopefully this isn't a confusing ramble. More educated people have discussed this I am simply parroting what I have learned from my Fandom Elders. I also lack context on the specific character dynamics (I am in the Helluva Boss fandom but am behind on Hazbin, no spoilers please haha) but am getting the gist of what you're talking about. But from my understanding, what I can say of Fandom content is thus; people create what they wish had been made instead (fix-it fics) or feel was lacking from the original source material (fluff from angst, vice versa.) Conciously or unconsciously. Then others see this and it spreads to like-minded people, becomes popular, and eventually breaks containment. (Or a creator never considered the deeper meaning at all and they just wanted to noodle around.) Sometimes people are simply not as deeply invested as to consider the source material or the implications of it and misconstrue fan content as the intended interpretation or they otherwise willingly and deliberately ignore it for dynamics that favor their preferences in media. Those who are content with canon will rarely even feel a need or desire to dig deeper into media analyais, altering character dynamics, or explore the themes or character atributes of what they engage with and would rarely even consider alternatives. But to those who enjoy playing around with stories or themes in general...any series can be an endless toybox of posibilities and sometimes it's just fun to make fluff outta a bad situation. Fortunately if you don't like those elements you can easily ignore or block that type of content and find things that better reflect canon or the themes you do enjoy. Your people are out there.
@@silversugar2140 i think i understand what ur saying about ppl writing what they wish was in the text rather than what was actually there, but i think in Valentino’s case it’s a little different. i’ll avoid spoilers but Valentino’s abuse is a core aspect of his character. like it’s kinda all he does in the show, verbal, physical, and SA abuse. so when the character is in fanfics and is depicting in the same outfit, with the same relationships, and generally as just the same character it’s very off putting. I could totally see something along the lines of what ur talking about, something like an AU where he isn’t a piece of shit. but i feel like that requires more separation from the reality of the canon, i.e. change his design, make him not dress a god damn pimp lol, change the connections he has with other characters, etc.
I also hate Valentino and can't stand seeing any content about him, or Adam(i find him a terrible villain and annoying at best) but they have fans somehow. However at the end of the day i believe its our responsibility to deal with what we see on the internet and have the tags and stuff relate to it blocked instead of engaging in discourse or shaming others, very often people who like those characters will grow out of it, or not. Its better to focus on the things we do like
21:48 I want to point out another point on this; context AUs, enemies to lovers, exc can end up falling into these categories on technicality, and people tend to ignore context and immediately villainize it. Also in general id make the point of genuine villain characters, not with people they harm but with other evil characters, I don't think that should be immediately seen as pure evil. As long as its not trying to glorify/normalize bad behavior in real life you know? (Third point, as a Bowser x Luigi shipper myself I found it being most of this videos content greatly amusing)
People legit just wishing they were Luigi in that scene though. I now wonder if some people ship certain things because they're to scared to write self inserts or something like that.
i love the whiplash of this videos simultaneous seriousness and also the absolute ridiculousness that is your decent into madness. its so real it sounds like im listening to a slightly more composed version of my headspace on this topic and it's absolutely delightful. thank you for the content as always athena.
You know what I want to see more of? Enough hero heals villain (though enemies to lovers is fun). Enough toxic villain couple (genuinely don't like). I want a couple where the villains are in love and make it everyone else's problem.
trolls are super forgiving creatures so that would be why barb didnt get into much trouble, even velvet and veneer they didnt actively hold a grudge for literal troll torture it was krimp who imprisoned them.
5:50 I will have to respectfully disagree on this. Because the "I can fix him" stories make the woman the proactive one, she tries fix a man that needs fixing. Because Belle dosn't try to fix the beast. He fixes himself. Like she dosn't go around like "Oh, if I'm just nice enough he will get better" When the Beasts becomes a threat, she instantly runs away. When he yells at her, she calls him out for it like anyone would. She does react to him trying to act better. Like in the Scene where they eat soup, and he just gulps it down, she looks irritated but let's it happen. It's him that tries to use a spoon, and when he fails, because his anatomy makes it hard, she picks up the soup so they can eat in a way they both feel comfortable with and that isn't dirty. Yes it's different in the Original Fairy Tale, Life Action Remake and animated Sequels, but they don't count for this discussion.
The thing with Bowuigi is that there's not only the movie to go with it, but other stories from the various medias- esp one in a manga where Luigi dresses up as Peach and almost gets married to Bowser aparently
athena saying "no video next week bc im getting married" is giving fanfic authors being like "sorry for no updates recently i gave birth to triplets and got into a ferris wheel accident so I've been dealing with that" LMAO 😭
I feel like pro & anti have gotten away from themselves. It might just be the circles I’m in, but I see lots of both sides trying to force their opinions on each other. Cases of, “anything should be allowed, so here is something vile.” & cases of, “shipping in general is vile, I won’t stand for it.” I can’t really stand either camp, so I just stick to very vanilla surface level stuff or my own characters. I have literally gone 3 years without hearing Pro or Anti in this context. That is a long time to not hear anything from a battle field that is still raging online.
Me, I love a good villain/hero ship. Give me them blurring the lines between it. And turning each other into hybrids of each other's morals. And the atrocities are romantic if done right.
Congrats on the wedding! Re proship: sole reason i consider myself one is because i don't go out of my way to harass the artist for something i don't like. We've lost too many artists because of it. Whoever harrases people are the problem, regardless where they stand.
To comment on the last bit: I think a pretty healthy and normal stance to have in the pro/anti madness is just that harming real humans is bad, like do what you want with your dolls but don't harass anyone else about what they do with theirs and for the love of god don't dox people
9:30 I mean like. Bowser also comes from a long standing franchise too, one where hes sometimes a guy that you go golfing with and play silly kart games, in some of the OTHER mario games he's not even like a main villain he just kind of is there, his threat level varies from semi-serious cartoon villain to just a lil guy And SOME fan interpretations of Bowser (and bowuigi) really still play into him retaining at least a little bit of his cartoon villain charm or going through an arc So I can see how Bowser might feel different compared to Creek who has a lot less media to compare to (although note i'm not invested in Trolls, fun movie series but IDK who creek even was LMAO) *also note still watching the video paused at time stamp to comment
as a pre movie bowuigi shipper and artist... theyre just so silly your honor. watching your og vid seeing you place them in S tier was so exciting and funny and REAL!!! ive been so happy to see them get more love recently :3
I think the problem with shipping is that everyone expects that you do it because you idealize the relationship. At the end of the day as long as you’re shipping fictional characters, whatever dynamic you are interacting with is just that: fiction. You don’t need an explanation to enjoy a ship, you can just enjoy it.
The problem with anti and proshipers is that No One Agrees About The Definition!! It seems like not only do anti and pro sides have different definitions but there is also wiggle room within groups as well. Most self identified proshipers would define it as ship and let ship, pro as in for not problematic. Most antis will give the definition athena read, pro as in problematic. You can see why no one agrees about anything.
I see it as both, that proshippers ship and let ship to the point where they ignore the problematic aspects. Basically ship and let ship but to a concerning extreme
@@depressionpie4859 ultimately its still just playing pretend. As long as there are appropriate warnings people can make an informed decision for themselves about what they can handle.
adding to the proshipping debate part, like… dont like dont read and all that good stuff, but if i don’t like it, and i don’t read it, and i don’t want people who read and write it near me, that is absolutely fine. i had a tumblr account when i was ~13 where i posted ship art and had “proshippers dni” in my post banner, and MULTIPLE proshippers decided to harass me over it. that’s gross, stop doing that, etc. i also think there’s a discussion to be had when characters’ relationships are up to interpretation, for example sanders sides or cccc characters, and people get mad when people interpret the relationships. it’s fine to see them as siblings, it’s fine to see them as dating, it’s NOT fine to see them as both at the same time. just my thoughts :)
It really does baffle me that proshippers always go on and on about how they're "Anti-harassment" but will target people who simply say "Hey, I don't like proshipping, please leave me alone," like, make it make sense! Like, I'm so sorry (sarcasm, also not aimed at you) that I as a violent CSA survivor don't like your fanarts/fanfictions glorifying and sexulizing what happened to me and so many other people🙄Sorrrrrry for the rant, I hope it comes across that I agree with you here.
This is the first video i’ve ever seen of yours but from the first 30 seconds alone I’m fully convinced you’re actually secretly the reincarnation of Pallas Athena from Greek Mythology. /lh /pos
Congrats on the marriage🎉🎉🎉🎉 Also, i agree with all your points. I base my shipping experience on "is it fun?" Will i read some fics where the dynamic isn't the healthiest? Yes, but i acknowledge all the bad points. In real life, i would go to whatever lengths it takes to separate them, but in fiction, it's for the heehee hahas. Ppl who genuinely ship those things will be blocked though.
Modern shipping discourse is literally hell, especially with how mainstream and popular fandom has gotten. I really do hate to use the word “normies” but the normies truly don’t understand that shipping is supposed to be for fun??? And that you literally can’t control people who want to ship what they want. “This ship makes me uncomfy!!” Or “the creator said they don’t like this ship!” Or “this ship is problematic!!!” Are valid reasons to not ship something, but to start an entire bandwagon where any sort of abnormal ship is immediately targeted with unnecessary massive amounts of vitriol or hatred is insane!!! + Also if you ever utter the phrase “you can’t ship that because it’s not canon!” You are off your rocker lol. I shouldn’t be so upset over this though, we all could use a good touch of grass 🤡
21:52 surprised u didn’t discuss Damon and Elena from vampire diaries The showrunners said they kept intentionally villainizing him to make audiences hate him and not ship them but it didn’t work cuz people loved him more and more so they caved
It's interesting to see this whole online discourse because I grew up on early 2010s Tumblr where it was common for toxic ships and then flip-flopped to this at one point. Let me rant about BatB below as it was one of my favorite movies growing up and I always see it mis-categorized: It's hard to describe, but the only way Belle fixes Beast is showing him empathy and kindness. She very rarely actually tells him what to do or change IIRC (his furniture people guide him as he tries to woo her). She doesn't even really talk to him at first and breaks all his rules. He makes the decision to work on himself, partially to get the curse gone, but then just for love. He opens up to her. He doesn't "break her down" really, actually she shares her interests with him because they become closer and he willingly indulges her. I always disliked the Stockholm Syndrome idea people put into the movie because it muddys the pretty good message of "Not judging people based on appearances" and "you have to be kind to get respect and kindness back". And it's just not really true. I think it's a really pretty movie! I mean the ballroom scene when the camera spins? Gorgeous. I knew that must've been a pain in the ass to do because of all those backgrounds. I hope this makes sense in some way. But a more fitting way of the mis-categorization of BatB would be ALW's Phantom of the Opera. Christine shows him kindness but throughout he makes no attempt to change until the last minute where he lets Christine and her fiance go. If anything he just gets worse and more controlling. Luckily the Phantom just doesn't end up with her.
DAMN IIIIIIIT!!!! Well contrapoints has a totally different vibe so I don't think we're competing.... plus her audience is huge so i'd lose for sure hahahaha
Thank you so so much! I tried to keep it engaging, fast paced and funny while also really discussing each complaint I’ve seen and I’m so happy you enjoyed!
My thing against enemies to lovers ships is probably just due to the types of media that I consume, where the villain often times has done incredibly messed up things to the hero, and if they live, they have barely done anything to really atone for their actions against the hero. So I’m sure that there are some great enemies to lovers type of ships out there, I just haven’t found many that I can agree with. (The only one I can think of is Lumity from TOH which I do love) Of course, if you like a specific ship/ship dynamic, so long as you’re not attacking people who disagree, adapting toxic relationship quirks into your own relationships, and not shipping people in real life, there is no issue, you do you.
I just want to say it’s so awesome to see your makeup skills just become so much better as each episode goes by like I’ve always been impressed with all the stuff you do but like watching its evolution has been so great
I've been into villain characters since I was like 5, so that's not my issue. My issue is with shipping culture when it takes shipping too seriously, like accusing showrunners of queerbaiting when two brothers don't end up together in canon. You know which show I'm talking about. I like to live and let live, but fr you guys, sometimes it's NOT sexual tension. Sometimes people are just friends/mortal enemies/total strangers who will never meet.
17:09 people keep using the word reboot interchangeably with revival and remake It’s a petty pet peeve of mine Those words have different definitions they don’t mean the samething In serial fiction, the term "reboot" signifies a new start to an established fictional universe, work, or series. A reboot discards continuity to re-create its characters, plotlines and backstory from the beginning Icarly is a sequel/revival Sorry for my petty rant 😅 please continue
I'd argue remake is somewhat similar to reboot as they're both starting over the story, and both tend to be free to take creative liberties. Though I guess with so many creative liberties, that might become a reimagining.
I agree a reboot can be similar to a revival and can share elements with remakes, but they have enough distinctions to warrent being their own things. I would need to look them up in a dictionary to properly explain the differences but I am lazy. To follow up with my understanding of this; a remake could simply be an updated shot for shot updated version with little to no chances outside of the medium. I.e the Lion King and "Live Action" Lion King. But I would not consider it a reboot in the same way I would something like the new Ducktales to the original. (Probably a poor choice as I haven't watched past the firsr episode but I wanted a Disney example.)
My take on this has always been: ship what you want as long as its not illegal, and if you see someone else shipping something you don't like but is otherwise harmless, ignore it and move on.
My thoughts exactly. I usually just stick to the pairings the given entertainment pushes and anything else is in the (for lack of a better word) friend zone. I don't mind Bowigi even though it's not a ship I'm super into because I don't have to see it and if I do it's my choice.
Same. Live and let live. As long as it doesn't make its way into reality, I really don't care what you ship, or what your kinks are. Don't shove it down my throat, and in turn I'll exercise my right to backspace out.
Well that's tricky too since legality isn't indicative of something being wrong/right for example in some countries existing as a gay person is illegal does that mean being in love with someone from the same sex is wrong? No, because as long as they're both consenting adults it's their business if they wanna be together.
Use ATHENA to get 55% off your first month at Scentbird sbird.co/3P3dc6K
Ok.
That sponsor segway was actually perfect
You should try watching sml
CONGRATULATIONS ON THE WEDDING 🎉 💖
For the whole Bakugou thing, trust me he gets WAY better later in the series. It was uphill battle to get to this point…
Being called both a prude and a pervert is the best part of shipping
you have manga which are either intentionally or unintentionally a bit that for some its cast but the plot of the series is real nice like I love Loveless for its tone an dynamics but keep the MCs servant in a therapy filled cell-block
This is why I just let the waves of discourse crash over me. Idgafuuuuugg both sides are so knee deep in their black and white thinking but I'm sitting here slamming together mega man characters like they're Barbies in my beautiful mind
No?
If I'm not being called a degenerate and getting doxx threats from terminally online strangers over my ships, I know I'm doing it wrong
@@mattybrunolucaszeneresalas9072yes?
I just asked my partner if he ships bowser and Luigi and he said no.
When I asked him why he said “I don’t think Luigi can take what bowser could give him. It would be too dangerous for poor little Luigi.”
💀💀💀 I'm *cackling* omg 😹
Excuse me, bowser is CLEARLY a power bottom
@lynniewood GET OUT YOU'RE DONEZO 😮💨😮💨😭😭😭
@@lynniewood bye bye hips
He’s a giant turtle
What the fu-
I'm sorry but I have to very strongly (and respectfully) disagree with your view on Beauty and the Beast simply for one reason: Belle never sets out to fix the Beast (at least... not in the original movie. in the bad sequels she does but we don't talk about those).
The Beast lays down rules for her, and she almost immediately breaks them and then leaves when he starts throwing things and getting all mad. She only actually sits down and talks to him when he starts treating her how she knows she deserves to be treated. When he yells, she yells and argues back. She only gives him props when he's nice to her, and that inspires him to change for her, not because she wants him to change.
The Beast gives her the library to roam around in because he wanted to do something nice for her after realizing she's special and he's not been behaving nice to her. Belle's whole story is about 2 men (the Beast and Gaston) wanting her. Gaston wants her on his terms, and Beast originally does as well but realizes that's not the way to win her heart, and so genuinely decides to change. Not because he wants the curse undone, seeing as he lets her go at the expense of his own ticking clock that is the rose. But because he learns to love her, and wants her to feel that love in a way she will like.
Belle doesn't ever have a scene like "If only the Beast was nice... wait, i can change him and make him nice!". She only ever really interacts with him when he IS nice, otherwise she's off doing her own thing in the castle.
These are really good points honestly! My little spiel by the end about people being aware of their own triggers is (over sharing a bit) how I am with Beast bc he has many qualities that line up with people in my life that I haaaate and it gets me MAAAD 🤣 But that’s just a me problem
@@AthenaPOfficial Nah, that's fair. I apologize if anything I said came off as harsh.
I've never seen the movie but this is how I've always seen it from an outsiders perspective
THANK YOU!
based yellow yoshi pfp
the way i was doxxed on twitter when i was like 13 for saying i liked Apple white x raven queen from ever after high... but i was ALSO doxxed for saying i think shipping poppy with her dad was weird, so you really cant win
People can get upset for dumb reasons. It’s best not to interact or engage in the discourse, people can to be very cruel.
@@Starbat011 wild thing was that i wasnt, i just tweeted, without replying or tagging anyone that i liked a shiplol
@@8bitbarbie163 I know I’m not dumb
Shouldn’t have been on Twitter at 13/j
Twitter X is cancer.
More cancer than the Onion and Kiwi Farms.
The villains are bad, and they got us down bad 😩
Especially JD from Heathers 😍😍😍 (OG Broadway cast Ofc)
Oh…wow…
Nice one
amazing comment, don't let anybody make you think otherwise
I giggled, chuckled even.
wait that take was so real of mario movie being frozen for brothers
Brozen 😊
@@LakinMae5wait that’s soooo good 😭😭
@@LakinMae5OMG YES
CONGRATULATIONS ON GETTING MARRIED?!!!!!
THANK YOU HAHAHA I was wondering if anyone would see if I stuck it at the end of the video but I am very very excited!!! Ahhhh
I had to go back cause I thought I heard wrong 😂 congrats 🎉🎉
yeah congrats@@AthenaPOfficial
Omg "married" my dumb ass ears heard "burried" I thought this was just a random joke for the sake of being random (or a analogy for something I didn't undertsand)
@@AthenaPOfficialCONGRATULATIONS!!!!
Shipping culture has gotten so out of hand that anything outside of the mainstream in fandoms is considered weird at best and from the 7th layer of hell at worst. I think a lot of it stems from people trying to find a reason to dislike a ship when there isn't ever a need to. You can just dislike a ship, even if it isn't problematic. Let me multi-ship and crossover pair in peace
in the case of interspecies relationships, i’d like to bring up the harkness test. it consists of three elements 1) does the nonhuman have human level intelligence or above? 2) can it talk or otherwise communicate with language? and 3) is it of sexual maturity for its species? in the cases of bowjack and bowser, they have human intelligence, can speak english, and are adults, so they pass the test and can be reasonably considered “safe” for shipping purposes. a real life bison would not pass this test at all and that’s why it’d be disgusting. great points and great video athena!
we have to stop with this test. i refuse to engage in relations with scooby doo
@@daylightcolorwas this really your first thought
@@sketchycat6223 it's brought up whenever i see this test being discussed 😭 i thought it was reasonable until that point cuz it's like ohhh hmm.. but i'm not being all that serious anyway
@@daylightcolorok, then let's simply add another set of criteria to the test:
Is the non-human anthropomorphic or otherwise humanoid?
Scooby-Doo is dog-like when it comes to his anatomy and isn't anthropomorphic, so therefore he fails the test. Bowser on the other hand is more humanoid due to being bipedal and having hands, so he passes.
Imo the Harkness test doesn't really persuade anyone, if you're trying to give a reason to date a fictional creature that doesn't...really work if the test itself implies feral animals are fine ykno
Unless u add criteria of "is this creature anthropomorphic"
TL;DR She can enjoy problematic ships between two adult characters but suspending her disbelief and writing her own story around them but has her own boundaries and lines she won't cross
I in IRL clearly would not let two emotionally broken violent children stay that way IRL same with IRL am not letting the man who does not get how not legal his actions come across as wit there 13 year old master
but I do dig there plot
Real hero
This exactly
You can enjoy problematic ships between any characters. That's the whole point of fiction
@@geministrial950ermmm….
I don't associate with either pro or anti shippers because really often these two types of people keep aggressively engaging with each other trying to change their minds or call each other out or whatever and it's so tiring to witness, I can't imagine why would anyone adopt either label and be so loud about it
THIS!!!!!!!!
well for me personally, it's bc being proship is basically just having a default healthy fandom mindset: ship and let ship, don't like don't read, mind your business and don't be a dick to others yknow?
and yeah i know that some people will look at this discourse and dismiss it as "stupid chronically online bullshit", but UNFORTUNATELY some people's lives have literally been ruined bc of this discourse so it's not as pointless as it may seem.
fandom spaces didn't use to be like this. back in the day getting doxxed over a fictional ship was something that was pretty much unheard of, but nowadays it's an everyday occurrence on twitter and tiktok. and i fucking *HATE* it.
so yeah, that's why i identify with the proship label (sorry for the long ass text lmao)
This!
I remember trying to block all the hashtags and people who started it and both sides still kept appearing every day on fаndom tags because they were DELIBERATELY not putting up hashtags and creating side accounts to clash
exactly exactly!! “are you pro or anti” I assess whether I personally like something under its individual circumstances? I don’t harass people even if I don’t like said thing? I go outside n have real life friends? why would I ever have the time or will to fight about ships online when I have yknow. A Job
@@lucas-hw6jm pro ship is literally the opposite of healthy relationship dynamics lol.
Who earth sees people ship bowser and luigi and says "OMG PROSHIPPER" bowser is literally a loony toon😭
Wdym???
@@Starbat011 I mean like how could people think that someone is a pro shipper for shipping bowser and Luigi, they’re both so silly there’s obviously no harm being done!!
@@myahchurchill7830 ofc it’s silly and no harm is to be done. Just stay safe and no harassing is big rule on the internet
Genuinely I thought the exact same thing like 😭😭?? I stay I’ve never seen a bowigi shipper who is also proship
I think that started on TikTok. When the "big boom" for Bowuigi hit (one of the trailers for the Mario movie had just come out), there were some people talking about the age gap between Bowser and Luigi. There was a misconception that Bowser was like... 80 or something in turtle years, I think? While Luigi was thought to be 20 something. So there was the big age gap that people were worried about, which made it look really problematic (nevermind that Bowser is technically just an abusive POS in canon most of the time anyway).
At some point, people started defending the ship by talking about how - in human years - Bowser would be around Luigi's age, anyway. So then the controversy died down.
It could have had something to do with the fact that Bowser is kind of an animal, too, while Luigi was a human (even though I know for a fact that monsterfuckers exist) but I mostly just saw the age gap thing.
(As a Bowuigi shipper, I never really understood the whole problem with it. I don't know their ages, I just kinda headcanoned that the two were in their 30s or 40s.)
Why are we comparing bowser to beast when he’s more like Gaston
Hot take
OK WAIT THAT’S SO REAL
@@AthenaPOfficialtrue 😅
Ur so right...
You’re extremely correct.
My fucking god your right
i could go on a tangent about how sam was experiencing comphet when she dated freddie and she’s actually a lesbian but i fear my autism would show too much
that's so real
You should go on the tangent (if you want to).
Freddie was also experiencing comphet and I will not change my mind.
@@samlewis6487 okay but This is so incredibly real to me. I also hc him as trans so he often forces crushes on girls (he knows Carly is generally unattainable) to try to pass more.
By all means, PLEASE go off I wanna hear it
Athena can’t escape making people offended in some way
ALSO YOO CONGRATS ON GETTING MARRIED SOON!!!
And I really try to not offend people too 😅
@@AthenaPOfficialI think at this point, no matter what you do in life, someone will ALWAYS be offended.
Like talking about one thing is offensive, but then not talking about the thing is also offensive.
No one can win anymore lmao
I knew she was engaged, but I didn't know the wedding would be so soon.
@@bashfulwolfo6499Maybe just try this thing called being a decent human being and you won't have that issue lol
@@superbowserfan64They weren't even saying anything bad? 🙃
I think a lot of the pro and anti ship discourse is just based on the individuals. Sometimes the pros are aggressive and sometimes the antis are, sometimes the antis just have a boundary and sometimes the pros just want people to be able to write whatever they want. It’s one of those things that can be nuanced but people treat it like it isn’t.
I think it’s another case of “every fandom has its really loud fringe people”
@@CGFillertext Exactly
I tried to approach the nuance with addressing the harassment I received from both sides in the beginning as well as me acknowledging that people need to be aware of their own triggers instead of forcing them onto others. The only reason I sound harsher when it comes to pro shippers is because I feel like the consequences of that are much more severe. Yes antis can lead to cyber bullying which is bad I’ll never say it’s not buuuut compared to minors being preyed on yeah it’s not as severe
@@AthenaPOfficial There have been a few cases of big anti-ship groups being grooming circles led by adults, and the whole doxxing obsession. I'd say, like with all things, there are good and bad on both sides. Obviously it's never okay to hurt kids, but I figured you may want to know that both sides have done it.
@@echosbento I feel like, though, in that case, they wouldn't actually be anti-shippers? They may use the anti-ship label online to sort of hide under the "kindness" it implies, but if they are literal groomers then that's inherently not anti-ship and anti-shippers heavily believe in how the fictional side of relationships can be bad BECAUSE it can promote things like grooming.
I'd say that, even though they are DESCRIBED as anti-shippers, I don't think I'd be wrong in saying these labels are self-assigned or based on their public online activity as opposed to their private lives. Because anyone who grooms IRL doesn't disagree with grooming, simply. I do think some anti-shippers can go really far but I've seen fewer anti-shippers bullying people than I have pro-shippers supporting adult x minor pairings because, from what I've seen, many anti-shippers just use the label because it's easier to identify that they don't agree with minor x adult and incestuous pairings but many are still fine with pairings like Bowser x Luigi, but pro-shippers tend to use the label when they DO agree with the more extreme stuff.
I still think there are bad elements to antis! I can see a lot of them disliking queer pairings or disliking ships that seem to be bad even though the whole point is to be commentary on it's toxicity, and cyberbullying is never excusable. Some antis I've met have also been very strict around pairings who used to dislike each other but were redeemed which isn't a great outlook in my opinion. But I agree with Athena in saying that most instances of a small number of antis being hateful are quite minor in comparison to quite a larger number of pros promoting cp and the idea that stuff like that is fine if it's fictional. As someone who used to be in online spaces with antis, one of our main rules was "don't bully pro-shippers, a lot of them are younger people using it as an unhealthy coping mechanism, the furthest you should go is educating them as long as they're in your age range and blocking them if not or if they don't respond well", but I don't think I've seen many pro-shippers saying one of their main rules is to not ship minors with adults.
Sorry if that came across as rude, and sorry that I went on a load of tangents unrelated to my OG point, I just think you're confusing what antis actually are versus people who call themselves antis but are not!!
"Good ship, Bad ship and dipshit"
Lmfao!!!
Can't believe Athena just pulled the classic fanfic writer move of casually dropping big life news like it's an authors note
I love how the "mlp jar" is just a universal experience on the internet
We must spread the good word!
@@purplepedantryAh yes, the “good” word
@@sketchycat6223
Well, it keeps away the prudes, at least.
It also keeps everyone good and traumatised.
@@purplepedantry 🤮
.....
*I don't wanna ask*
I ship characters because it's goofy silly or because it's tragic and poetic, no inbetween😔
Pourquoi pas les deux?
what about both one ship I have seen recently is two very poetic characters who go on a crash course of mental issues an emotional stress which sometimes have a fanfic where they play party games with someones OC
No bc all of my ships start out as joke/crackships, then I end up writing the most heart wrenching angst to make my friends sad 😈
@@senritsujumpsuit6021Literally any Magnus Archives ship😭 That damn series is so tragic I JUST WANT THEM TO BE HAPPY!!
@@trixie7759Is your pfp Lynn from All Saints Street??
Bowser and Luigi give me major Lego Batman and Joker. Which I was just thinking. Batman and Joker is another ship that divides ppl. There's multiple variations of Batman and Joker's dynamic but has the same conclusion: Batman needs the Joker and vice versa. Lego Batman and The Tell Tale Batman series humanize their dynamic. While (from what I remember) the comics and in the Redhood movie is super toxic(I mean Joker almost killed Jason but even THAT wasn't enough.). Idk this is just my food for thought. Okay bye!
as someone who has been a huge Batman fan for a very long time, i disagree. The Joker needs Batman, but Batman doesn't need The Joker. The Joker also has a very twisted and disturbing level of obsession when it comes to Batman, which sometimes, but not always, manifests as romantic or sexual feelings/attraction. Bruce however doesn't return these feelings because The Joker is a physical manifestation of his worst fears and what he hates the most about society. it's shown time and time again that becoming The Joker is his worst nightmare/greatest fear, especially since they're two sides of the same coin, which is a huge part of why he despises The Joker and what he represents. one thing that is interesting is how often The Joker has lured Batman into a Tunnel of Love as part of a scheme, most notably in The Killing Joke and The Dark Knight Returns. TDKR is honestly the most brutal imo with Joker attempting to murder Batman while also being very heavy-handed with the sexual innuendos, also claiming that "this is the day that they've both been waiting for", meaning a big climax where one of them will kill the other; the fight ending with Batman killing The Joker in self defense, and Joker laughing because he finally got exactly what he wanted from Batman, leaving Bruce shaken and horrified. BatJokes is a ship that works well in AUs and sillier Batman stories like Lego Batman, but is really had to justify and get behind in more serious or darker stories, especially in the main DC Comics continuity with all of the highly disturbing things that The Joker has done throughout his long history. now I'd never judge someone for shipping these two, but it really depends on the context if this ship works or not imo. /srs
wtf u mean almost?? Jason was dead dead. He got revived but he was actually straight up murdered by the Joker.
Also I remember hearing about the idea of three different Jokers in a comic (which is coincidentally gross with shipping), so I headcanon the Joker Dick Grayson fought was like the Lego Batman Joker, while the one who killed Jason is a completely different Joker, and the one in The Dark Knight Returns also being completely different from the other two.
The first Joker was playful, loved to make other people laugh, very silver age-esque, loved Harley Quinn, and had a decent chance at being one of the rogues to occasionally be trusted, or allies with, or a functioning member of Gotham, real name being Jack White (who has a backstory, look it up!), and was just an all around jolly guy.
The second Joker is the violent one, not very smart, impulsive, cruel, the one who hurt (or killed) most of the Bat-clan, was truly Evil, and was killed by Nightwing in Last Laugh, not getting resuscitated.
The third Joker was the genius, the one who played mind games, created Joker-venom, was in TDKR, and is the only one still alive to this day.
Maybe with a few other Jokers here and there, who died one way or another. (Maybe Batman DID kill the Joker at some point)
Every Joker believes himself to be the one true Joker, is unaware of one another (probably due to the insanity), one of the reasons his identity is still unknown, too crazy treat (much less diagnose) in Arkham, keeps coming back from irrefutable death, and nobody else, including Harley Quinn, knows that there was ever more than one (except perhaps Nightwing, because he was around so long, Last Laugh, and because favoritism).
(Srry long tangent about my au)
A friendly reminder to everyone: If you don't like something, you shouldn't go after it just to complain about it
Beast is a situational villain. Everyone else in the castle became furniture or something. Two of the household goods had to be his parents. He is not an intentional villain. He's a teen.
HE’S A TEEN?????
@@saint_squared525oh shit that makes the whole movie make A LOT more sense woah. I have to rewatch again with this knowledge
@@AthenaPOfficialapparently he’s supposed to be around 20 i thought he was like 40 😭
@@AthenaPOfficialIf I’m not mistaken Belle is 17 and the Beast is 21 by the end of the movie.
@@AthenaPOfficial I think he was eleven in the original animated movie when he was cursed but there's theories that time stopped so nobody aged but if memory serves the rose lasted until his twenty-first birthday which implies aging and also I think there's some reference to him being eleven but it's been a while.
This is barely related to the video, but I want it to be known that in like 2014 or so, I was in an unlicensed production of Beauty and the Beast and I played a castle servant who got turned into a Wii controller.
That sounds hilarious!
Wait I NEED to see this hahaha
No way-
Off topic. You should make a amazing world of gum ball lore
Holy moly
Yes, that'd be awesome!
I totally agree
Bakugo fans don't like Bakugo. They like the idea of Bakugo.
*This message has been brought to you by an X-man fan.*
Eh I like Bakugo for his growth as a character while unabashedly being an jerk
If this was a comparison to Magneto, idk if it works. Similarly to Zuko, he's extremely appealing for his backstory and his iconic redemption arc (specifically Claremont's during Bronze Age). I didn't watch MHA up until bakugo gets "redeemed" or whatever, so I can't comment on that, but Magneto is a very deep character that is enjoyable as both a message and a person-character
this is really any character
there are whole anime where the MC is full Villian in of themselves an everyone loves it
the MC to one show laughed an said "This is humanity" when it was discovered countless children where murdered by a plot which ties into there trauma
I have a long history of liking trash characters being dragged kicking and screaming into being better people, OR dragging is attempted but they fail miserably.
Bakugou is just one in a long line of horrible children I've tucked in my pocket. (And because I have multitudes he's only my second favorite. My first is Iida.)
yeah also he had his growth wich git undermined in the anime .
the reason why people who had seen the anime hate baku so much is cause of how the animation and voice acting made him more aggressive.if we look at the newers chapters especially wesee that he has changed alooot
btw sry for rant 😓
Some “shipping discourse” is common sense (don’t ship a child with an adult, don’t ship family members, maybe don’t ship a murderer with their victim (unless maybe an AU or is super unserious in canon), or a r4pist with their victim) and then this is the other side of that discourse, where it just comes down to “CHARACTER BAD THEREFORE SHIP IS BAD!” Or “SHIP BAD CAUSE ICKY” which is already incredibly funny (and slightly infuriating) to see lol
But even if it's fictional, IT'S FICTION.
NOT REAL.
but if its in irl you have serious problems lol
@@Starbat011 yes and no. Respectfully (and I have no idea if this is what you were saying/intending), some people use the whole “it’s fictional and these people aren’t real” as a crutch to avoid criticism far too often. Just because two characters aren’t real doesn’t mean that shipping them or writing fanfiction about them is all 100% okay. Like, ship whoever as long as they’re both either adults or both children, with no negotiations there, and obviously no nsfw stuff with the children. As well as probably not shipping abusers/victims, rapists/victims, lesbians/men, gay men/women, etc. I think people forget that just because something is fictional, it doesn’t mean that it can’t have real world impacts. South Park, for instance, as much as I love the show, I can critique it just as much. In 2005 (I think?) they had an episode about trans people and, while the episode and its events only impacted the characters, who are all fake, the messages of that episode and the events in it are still being used by right wing conservatives as a talking point for their views. Fiction will always have an impact on our real world, whether we like the implications of that or not.
@@artistic_ljbars
@@artistic_ljI think you got the right idea, it’s fiction till it bleeds into the real world where it has consequences.
@@artistic_lj Yes, fiction will have an effect but its not 1:1 as most people like you keep claiming it is. If fiction does affect rl so much, the oft mentioned propaganda by idiot politicians where video games make kids violent, for example, wouldve been proven 10x over ever since it was first stated.
Whenever I see people policing others over their 'problematique' ships, telling others what to do in fiction, and accusing them of being actual pdfs and whatnot, Id roll my eyes and block you off my socials. I'd tell you to touch grass and go to therapy as you dont seem to have any idea how to separate fiction from reality. If you have so much time on your hands to push your moral high ground in fiction (Might as fkin well cancel old world mythological gods and the classical writers while were at it because some people think they deserve death for what sill things they make in fiction.), maybe consider going after issues that actually matter in real life instead.
Athena’s makeup is on fleak
don’t forget her hair too like she looks phenomenal 😭
She never misses
One factor about it I don’t see discussed too often is ‘what platform is the content being posted in?’
Somewhere like AO3 or Tumblr, you can filter out and block tags of content that makes you uncomfortable. Don’t like a certain ship/trope? Yeet it away, and have peace of mind.
But on platforms that have more loose filters or none at all, it can be difficult for people to avoid the content that could make them distressed.
Yes, but also you could just scroll away immediately if you happen to see something that you dislike. It takes more effort to leave a comment, send the OP a dm, or reply in any way.
I think this is really important because I don’t mind people making art I couldn’t personally stomach. If they didn’t, I wouldn’t be able to hear beautiful sentiments from Bojack. I just wish that filters or responsible tagging was more encouraged than just on those two sites. Some people are too young or too sensitive to handle content and don’t need to be jumpscared with NSFW when they just wanted to see art of their favorite characters.
Even if I am starting to be more adventurous with what I read and watch, I could only do so feeling safe from having to engage when I wasn’t ready.
they way you explain how bower’s treatment of luigi helped luigi grow from mario and it bettered the brother’s relationship MAKES SO MUCH SENSE !!! and unless luigi is suffering from ptsd in the next movie, bowuigi is real in my brain (also omg that squidbob video sounds so fun)
Shipping can get heated and insane quick, no matter what fandom you're a part of.
Sometimes it's fun to indulge in one's own headcanons or even canon, but other times people can be so infuriating and hostile if you ever so as lightly disagree with their prefered ship.
If people can be down bad for the baddies, why is shipping baddies suddenly a crime?
...
Robbie Rotten x Sportacus (Lazytown)
I leave now ^^
based
YES
Screaming because I had a whole phase of being obsessed with them Junior year HS
Based tbh
You are so right-
Villain redemption arcs ❤❤❤
My bread and butter truly
Yes, you CAN fix them!!
My favorite villain redemption fic has the summary that the villain is “dragged kicking and screaming through character development”
We love to see it 😌 Even better if the villain realizes their mistakes and changes on their own without the need for anyone to fix them.
Alternatively: Hero corruption arcs ❤❤❤
Why there is discourse involving Bowser being shipped with a fellow adult character who isn't related to him? Like bruh he literally plays sports ball with Luigi like every Tuesday
about Creek and Barb, fans like to imagine Creek differently much more because of how forced his betrayal was, fanfics, headcans and aus exploring a more "human" side of him (for lack of a better word), and Barb, some they like her vibe and like her in general but agree that she could have a better redemption, and others just like her dynamic with Poppy (surprised that you didn't mention those who ship her with Viva, including me!😂)
Barb with Viva I can totally see wait!!!
I'm surprised to hear about people allegedly liking Creek, because I haven't encountered any such people in my consumption of Trolls fanfiction. I instead saw a recurring thread of people portraying Creek as much worse than I think he was in the movie, which is why I became something of a defender of him.
Creek in the movie is the kind of guy who behaves perfectly decently as long as doing so isn't too difficult or dangerous, but who becomes corrupted very easily by hardship. He turns against his people to save his own skin, and that sucks. But I've seen a number of fics that cast him as a sociopath who abuses Poppy, bullies Branch, and manipulates everyone around him even in times of peace, and that just isn't supported by the movie.
@@augustrempelewert4377 Yeah, there are some people who are like that. But what I see most are fics and aus where he goes through a redemption arc and learns to be a better person. And sometimes that includes Floyd.
I’m also fine with anthro x humans. In fact, I want more of it in fiction. You’re right that we can’t always apply real life logic to fiction. Sometimes we overthink what is and isn’t problematic. I don’t think it’s good to attack people for liking ships we dislike. Keep in mind, I’m not a fan of ped0s or incest.
This is a really good example of media literacy in how some ships work and others don't. And while fictional ships don't necessarily reflect views on reality, how those ideas can start impacting reality and stop being fiction. Great video
Also Bowigi is S tier. Cuz it's not a perfect dynamic, but it's a dynamic that can tell interesting stories or just make for some cute/funny moments.
I feel like most people who don't like Bakugou watched the anime in 2018 and don't know what's even happening anymore, which is fair. He's obviously not everyone's cup of tea but I feel like it's a bit unfair to see him as the character he was in chapter one instead of seeing him as what he is now:')
(Also dw guys I don't blame you for leaving mha behind😭)
I left it behind only because funimation refused to work for me for a good year and then at that point I was like…. Well I’m not gonna catch up now hahaha
@@AthenaPOfficial that's so valid man
Yes! Thank you! I love him as a character because of how well his character growth was/is handled. In order to achieve his dream he has to work on himself first and he finally starts realizing that.
Yeah exactly. I liked him for his character growth, not because he's a jerk. Also he came across as the more interesting one while everyone else felt more trope-y and generic to me. Then again, I didn't get that far in the series so I could be wrong about that lol
yess especially if u have only seen the first few seasons
the manga from day one is totally different in tone and in the newest chapters u can see how much their relationship has changed and improved its now a important part of the story
idk but i feel like this is a instance where u can say that the manga was better
sry for rant btwTvT
Yeah, I think this shipping thing is like when you like a villain. You may not like them as a person with their morals, but you think they're a good character for the story. It's actually an interesting thing to think about
Congrats on getting married soon! I would like to say "I hope you don't have to make another video like this" however that Squidbob defense sounds fun lol
This video is like a pearl of media literacy in an ocean of people refusing to think about the stuff they watch and enjoy
Thank you so much omg when I posted this and saw a bunch of people unsub I was like wait was I wrong???? Thanks for the reassurance 🥲
I remember when Bowuigi was just a silly crackship that no one really knew about. Then it blew up one day and I literally couldn’t have been happier.
That year it was popular felt like a dream. A nightmare at times, but mostly a beautiful dream. This ship I’ve been obsessed with since I was in middle school was like mainstream?? Omg…
Thank you Bowuigi warriors for seeing the Bowuigi light, and although we’ve had some rough patches, we made it through and managed to gain some lifelong Bowuigi lovers so thank you.
Thank you to the person who animated the scene that started it all. Why did you make it so homoerotic I don’t know, but maybe you were one of us all along.
This video is amazing too! Thank you for discussing the S++ tier ship of all time!!
you dont know how much sanity you just gave up by learning who blueface and chrisean are
Oh, you wanna judge Athena for shipping Bowser and Luigi? Okay, _show me your ao3 tabs_
💀💀💀
TikTok purity culture poisoned??? What is dawg talking about 💀💀💀
I don't want this to sound weird, but I hope you have a great time at your wedding! You deserve it!
That doesn’t sound weird at all! I really appreciate it 🥹
I enjoy the Bowuigi ship as well. It's the equivalent of the Wander/Lord Hater ship. A soft hearted individual paired up with an intimidating jerk who is actually just this insecure, bratty, teen that just wants to be loved.
I NEED TO SAY A THNG - Bowser has eight children who are the same species as him as they are similar in appearance to him - Lemmy, Larry, Morton, Wendy, Iggy, Roy, and Ludwig!!!
Can we just agree that bowser is kinda wholesome though? Like in his twisted way he really does like Peach. I personally think Bowser could be fixed with some friendship and therapy. AND WOULDNT WE ALL BE BETTER WITH SOME FRIENDSHIP AND THERAPY! He deserves happiness and if with not Peach then with Luigi or Kamek.
Speaking of ships and fanon, ngl what really attached me to the Barb/Poppy ship was the fanfic “Ms. Brightside” by solidburnreturned. It really develops Barb as a character and explores the aftermath of the second movie to the point where it’s implied that she’s even questioned as a leader in her own kingdom. She never pushes Poppy into anything and believes that she doesn’t want anything to do with her when in fact the opposite is true, and it’s all about Barb overcoming those personal hangups about deserving to be loved or not. I still can’t believe such a good story of lesbian yearning came from a fucking Trolls fic of all places but here we are. Do recommend!
I asked my mom her thoughts and she said “absolutely not, if Luigi’s dating anyone is Donkey Kong” and honestly I see it 😂
I live by the old days of shipping. The “ship and let ship” don’t like it don’t interact days. Let people enjoy their silly OTPs. If someone doesn’t like a ship you do, simply go okay that’s cool and MOVE ON. If you don’t like something someone else does then simply go not my thing but you enjoy it how you wish and MOVE ON. And be two boats passing in the night. If you’re at all curious maybe ask “what do you like about it?” Or “why do you like it?” Maybe you’ll get a see a side that you hadn’t considered before. Doxxing and harassment is not how we as a whacky community of fictional shippers should treat each other.
Also congrats on the wedding!🎉🎉🎉
You are aloud to like what you like. I personally think the problem is a difference between emotion and actions. What way we feel about character and relationships don't make sense. Evidently by the fact someone like Athena might like one ship but not like similar ships so reasons she herself doesn't understand.
But it crosses a line when you push that on other people or in some way take it to the point you are hurting people in the real world.
However Athena, please keep making videos explaining your options because I enjoy understanding why you like what you like and how you think.
Holy shit! Congrats on getting married 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
THANK YOU SO SO MUCH!!!!
they aren’t bad, they’re just drawn that way
I feel some people just want the moral high ground so to prove they're a Good Person(tm) they just jump at people for silly reasons, and that reaction to Bowser/Lugi thing is a classic example lol
I need to see someone discuss the shipping of Valentino in Hazbin Hotel. for some reason it seems like i’m in the minority for being uncomfortable with shipping him. my issue is that Valentino does not match the silly villain role, he canonically commute SA on the show and possibly worse, it just makes me uncomfortable to see him in “cutesy” ship art
The only Valentino ship I can see/agree with is Vox. (Also before episode 4 I found Valentino so funny for some reason...)
@@achannel315 i get why ppl like their dynamic, it’s only weird to me when they are portrayed as a cute couple in the fan art. it’s like casting the character in a much different light than i feel is accurate
I'm probably wording this poorly so hopefully this isn't a confusing ramble. More educated people have discussed this I am simply parroting what I have learned from my Fandom Elders. I also lack context on the specific character dynamics (I am in the Helluva Boss fandom but am behind on Hazbin, no spoilers please haha) but am getting the gist of what you're talking about. But from my understanding, what I can say of Fandom content is thus; people create what they wish had been made instead (fix-it fics) or feel was lacking from the original source material (fluff from angst, vice versa.) Conciously or unconsciously.
Then others see this and it spreads to like-minded people, becomes popular, and eventually breaks containment. (Or a creator never considered the deeper meaning at all and they just wanted to noodle around.) Sometimes people are simply not as deeply invested as to consider the source material or the implications of it and misconstrue fan content as the intended interpretation or they otherwise willingly and deliberately ignore it for dynamics that favor their preferences in media. Those who are content with canon will rarely even feel a need or desire to dig deeper into media analyais, altering character dynamics, or explore the themes or character atributes of what they engage with and would rarely even consider alternatives. But to those who enjoy playing around with stories or themes in general...any series can be an endless toybox of posibilities and sometimes it's just fun to make fluff outta a bad situation.
Fortunately if you don't like those elements you can easily ignore or block that type of content and find things that better reflect canon or the themes you do enjoy. Your people are out there.
@@silversugar2140 i think i understand what ur saying about ppl writing what they wish was in the text rather than what was actually there, but i think in Valentino’s case it’s a little different. i’ll avoid spoilers but Valentino’s abuse is a core aspect of his character. like it’s kinda all he does in the show, verbal, physical, and SA abuse. so when the character is in fanfics and is depicting in the same outfit, with the same relationships, and generally as just the same character it’s very off putting. I could totally see something along the lines of what ur talking about, something like an AU where he isn’t a piece of shit. but i feel like that requires more separation from the reality of the canon, i.e. change his design, make him not dress a god damn pimp lol, change the connections he has with other characters, etc.
I also hate Valentino and can't stand seeing any content about him, or Adam(i find him a terrible villain and annoying at best) but they have fans somehow. However at the end of the day i believe its our responsibility to deal with what we see on the internet and have the tags and stuff relate to it blocked instead of engaging in discourse or shaming others, very often people who like those characters will grow out of it, or not. Its better to focus on the things we do like
Athena’s power level in this video has surpassed anything I’ve seen of her before
21:48
I want to point out another point on this;
context
AUs, enemies to lovers, exc can end up falling into these categories on technicality, and people tend to ignore context and immediately villainize it.
Also in general id make the point of genuine villain characters, not with people they harm but with other evil characters, I don't think that should be immediately seen as pure evil. As long as its not trying to glorify/normalize bad behavior in real life you know?
(Third point, as a Bowser x Luigi shipper myself I found it being most of this videos content greatly amusing)
People legit just wishing they were Luigi in that scene though. I now wonder if some people ship certain things because they're to scared to write self inserts or something like that.
DEFINITELY, some people are too scared to self insert, I’ve also seen people make OCS that ~~vaguely~~ look like themselves too
People who come at others for liking villains are some of the most annoying internet people
Depends on the villain
i absolutely adore the makeup this video!! ♡
ALSO ATHENA CONGRATS ON YOUR SOON MARRIAGE IM HAPPY FOR YOU !! your the #1 lore queen 💕
i love the whiplash of this videos simultaneous seriousness and also the absolute ridiculousness that is your decent into madness. its so real it sounds like im listening to a slightly more composed version of my headspace on this topic and it's absolutely delightful. thank you for the content as always athena.
You know what I want to see more of? Enough hero heals villain (though enemies to lovers is fun). Enough toxic villain couple (genuinely don't like). I want a couple where the villains are in love and make it everyone else's problem.
trolls are super forgiving creatures so that would be why barb didnt get into much trouble, even velvet and veneer they didnt actively hold a grudge for literal troll torture it was krimp who imprisoned them.
5:50 I will have to respectfully disagree on this. Because the "I can fix him" stories make the woman the proactive one, she tries fix a man that needs fixing.
Because Belle dosn't try to fix the beast. He fixes himself. Like she dosn't go around like "Oh, if I'm just nice enough he will get better"
When the Beasts becomes a threat, she instantly runs away. When he yells at her, she calls him out for it like anyone would.
She does react to him trying to act better.
Like in the Scene where they eat soup, and he just gulps it down, she looks irritated but let's it happen. It's him that tries to use a spoon, and when he fails, because his anatomy makes it hard, she picks up the soup so they can eat in a way they both feel comfortable with and that isn't dirty.
Yes it's different in the Original Fairy Tale, Life Action Remake and animated Sequels, but they don't count for this discussion.
I've been fighting in the Bowuigi trenches since middle school, BEFORE THE MARIO MOVIE, thanks for fightin' this for us o7
The thing with Bowuigi is that there's not only the movie to go with it, but other stories from the various medias- esp one in a manga where Luigi dresses up as Peach and almost gets married to Bowser aparently
athena saying "no video next week bc im getting married" is giving fanfic authors being like "sorry for no updates recently i gave birth to triplets and got into a ferris wheel accident so I've been dealing with that" LMAO 😭
I feel like pro & anti have gotten away from themselves.
It might just be the circles I’m in, but I see lots of both sides trying to force their opinions on each other.
Cases of,
“anything should be allowed, so here is something vile.”
& cases of,
“shipping in general is vile, I won’t stand for it.”
I can’t really stand either camp, so I just stick to very vanilla surface level stuff or my own characters.
I have literally gone 3 years without hearing Pro or Anti in this context.
That is a long time to not hear anything from a battle field that is still raging online.
Me, I love a good villain/hero ship. Give me them blurring the lines between it. And turning each other into hybrids of each other's morals. And the atrocities are romantic if done right.
Congrats on the wedding!
Re proship: sole reason i consider myself one is because i don't go out of my way to harass the artist for something i don't like. We've lost too many artists because of it.
Whoever harrases people are the problem, regardless where they stand.
To comment on the last bit: I think a pretty healthy and normal stance to have in the pro/anti madness is just that harming real humans is bad, like do what you want with your dolls but don't harass anyone else about what they do with theirs and for the love of god don't dox people
9:30
I mean like. Bowser also comes from a long standing franchise too, one where hes sometimes a guy that you go golfing with and play silly kart games, in some of the OTHER mario games he's not even like a main villain he just kind of is there, his threat level varies from semi-serious cartoon villain to just a lil guy
And SOME fan interpretations of Bowser (and bowuigi) really still play into him retaining at least a little bit of his cartoon villain charm or going through an arc
So I can see how Bowser might feel different compared to Creek who has a lot less media to compare to (although note i'm not invested in Trolls, fun movie series but IDK who creek even was LMAO)
*also note still watching the video paused at time stamp to comment
as a pre movie bowuigi shipper and artist... theyre just so silly your honor. watching your og vid seeing you place them in S tier was so exciting and funny and REAL!!! ive been so happy to see them get more love recently :3
I think the problem with shipping is that everyone expects that you do it because you idealize the relationship. At the end of the day as long as you’re shipping fictional characters, whatever dynamic you are interacting with is just that: fiction. You don’t need an explanation to enjoy a ship, you can just enjoy it.
The problem with anti and proshipers is that No One Agrees About The Definition!! It seems like not only do anti and pro sides have different definitions but there is also wiggle room within groups as well. Most self identified proshipers would define it as ship and let ship, pro as in for not problematic. Most antis will give the definition athena read, pro as in problematic. You can see why no one agrees about anything.
Oh sick thanks for the heart!
I see it as both, that proshippers ship and let ship to the point where they ignore the problematic aspects. Basically ship and let ship but to a concerning extreme
@@depressionpie4859 ultimately its still just playing pretend. As long as there are appropriate warnings people can make an informed decision for themselves about what they can handle.
adding to the proshipping debate part, like… dont like dont read and all that good stuff, but if i don’t like it, and i don’t read it, and i don’t want people who read and write it near me, that is absolutely fine.
i had a tumblr account when i was ~13 where i posted ship art and had “proshippers dni” in my post banner, and MULTIPLE proshippers decided to harass me over it. that’s gross, stop doing that, etc.
i also think there’s a discussion to be had when characters’ relationships are up to interpretation, for example sanders sides or cccc characters, and people get mad when people interpret the relationships. it’s fine to see them as siblings, it’s fine to see them as dating, it’s NOT fine to see them as both at the same time.
just my thoughts :)
It really does baffle me that proshippers always go on and on about how they're "Anti-harassment" but will target people who simply say "Hey, I don't like proshipping, please leave me alone," like, make it make sense! Like, I'm so sorry (sarcasm, also not aimed at you) that I as a violent CSA survivor don't like your fanarts/fanfictions glorifying and sexulizing what happened to me and so many other people🙄Sorrrrrry for the rant, I hope it comes across that I agree with you here.
This is the first video i’ve ever seen of yours but from the first 30 seconds alone I’m fully convinced you’re actually secretly the reincarnation of Pallas Athena from Greek Mythology. /lh /pos
I'd rather people have 'problematic' ships from fiction than be toxic fucks in real life.
Day 1 of convincing Athena to review Fetch! With Ruff Ruff Man. To convince you, the intro song is a banger
“I can just make shit up about cartoons and you can’t stop me. I cannot make shit up about real people.” OH THAT’S ACTUALLY GOOD
Congrats on the marriage🎉🎉🎉🎉
Also, i agree with all your points. I base my shipping experience on "is it fun?" Will i read some fics where the dynamic isn't the healthiest? Yes, but i acknowledge all the bad points. In real life, i would go to whatever lengths it takes to separate them, but in fiction, it's for the heehee hahas. Ppl who genuinely ship those things will be blocked though.
Modern shipping discourse is literally hell, especially with how mainstream and popular fandom has gotten. I really do hate to use the word “normies” but the normies truly don’t understand that shipping is supposed to be for fun??? And that you literally can’t control people who want to ship what they want. “This ship makes me uncomfy!!” Or “the creator said they don’t like this ship!” Or “this ship is problematic!!!” Are valid reasons to not ship something, but to start an entire bandwagon where any sort of abnormal ship is immediately targeted with unnecessary massive amounts of vitriol or hatred is insane!!! + Also if you ever utter the phrase “you can’t ship that because it’s not canon!” You are off your rocker lol. I shouldn’t be so upset over this though, we all could use a good touch of grass 🤡
Exactly! I'm shipping my self insert OC with the main character and nobody can stop me! 😈
21:52 surprised u didn’t discuss Damon and Elena from vampire diaries
The showrunners said they kept intentionally villainizing him to make audiences hate him and not ship them but it didn’t work cuz people loved him more and more so they caved
It's interesting to see this whole online discourse because I grew up on early 2010s Tumblr where it was common for toxic ships and then flip-flopped to this at one point.
Let me rant about BatB below as it was one of my favorite movies growing up and I always see it mis-categorized:
It's hard to describe, but the only way Belle fixes Beast is showing him empathy and kindness. She very rarely actually tells him what to do or change IIRC (his furniture people guide him as he tries to woo her). She doesn't even really talk to him at first and breaks all his rules. He makes the decision to work on himself, partially to get the curse gone, but then just for love. He opens up to her. He doesn't "break her down" really, actually she shares her interests with him because they become closer and he willingly indulges her. I always disliked the Stockholm Syndrome idea people put into the movie because it muddys the pretty good message of "Not judging people based on appearances" and "you have to be kind to get respect and kindness back". And it's just not really true.
I think it's a really pretty movie! I mean the ballroom scene when the camera spins? Gorgeous. I knew that must've been a pain in the ass to do because of all those backgrounds.
I hope this makes sense in some way. But a more fitting way of the mis-categorization of BatB would be ALW's Phantom of the Opera. Christine shows him kindness but throughout he makes no attempt to change until the last minute where he lets Christine and her fiance go. If anything he just gets worse and more controlling. Luckily the Phantom just doesn't end up with her.
6:52 STOP THE WAY MY JAW WAS ON THE FLOOR WHILE FLASHBACKS OF YOUNG ME CAME RUSHING BACK BC WHY DID I SHIP THEM 😭😭😭
i do want that squidbob ep tho...
Athena: *casually drops that she's getting married*
Me: 😮
Congratulations on your wedding!
Lol this dropping right before contapoint's video on the same thing is hilarious. Poor sweetie.
DAMN IIIIIIIT!!!! Well contrapoints has a totally different vibe so I don't think we're competing.... plus her audience is huge so i'd lose for sure hahahaha
Interesting analysis. You spoke about plenty of concerns that I wish more people thought about carefully. Good job. 👍
Thank you so so much! I tried to keep it engaging, fast paced and funny while also really discussing each complaint I’ve seen and I’m so happy you enjoyed!
My thing against enemies to lovers ships is probably just due to the types of media that I consume, where the villain often times has done incredibly messed up things to the hero, and if they live, they have barely done anything to really atone for their actions against the hero. So I’m sure that there are some great enemies to lovers type of ships out there, I just haven’t found many that I can agree with. (The only one I can think of is Lumity from TOH which I do love)
Of course, if you like a specific ship/ship dynamic, so long as you’re not attacking people who disagree, adapting toxic relationship quirks into your own relationships, and not shipping people in real life, there is no issue, you do you.
The pure whiplash I got when I heard “oh yea, btw I’m getting married” was amusing to say the least, congrats!
I just want to say it’s so awesome to see your makeup skills just become so much better as each episode goes by like I’ve always been impressed with all the stuff you do but like watching its evolution has been so great
I've been into villain characters since I was like 5, so that's not my issue. My issue is with shipping culture when it takes shipping too seriously, like accusing showrunners of queerbaiting when two brothers don't end up together in canon. You know which show I'm talking about. I like to live and let live, but fr you guys, sometimes it's NOT sexual tension. Sometimes people are just friends/mortal enemies/total strangers who will never meet.
Uh, wow. Never thought I would see the day you reveiw questionable romance.
17:09 people keep using the word reboot interchangeably with revival and remake
It’s a petty pet peeve of mine
Those words have different definitions they don’t mean the samething
In serial fiction, the term "reboot" signifies a new start to an established fictional universe, work, or series. A reboot discards continuity to re-create its characters, plotlines and backstory from the beginning
Icarly is a sequel/revival
Sorry for my petty rant 😅 please continue
I'd argue remake is somewhat similar to reboot as they're both starting over the story, and both tend to be free to take creative liberties. Though I guess with so many creative liberties, that might become a reimagining.
I agree a reboot can be similar to a revival and can share elements with remakes, but they have enough distinctions to warrent being their own things. I would need to look them up in a dictionary to properly explain the differences but I am lazy.
To follow up with my understanding of this; a remake could simply be an updated shot for shot updated version with little to no chances outside of the medium. I.e the Lion King and "Live Action" Lion King. But I would not consider it a reboot in the same way I would something like the new Ducktales to the original. (Probably a poor choice as I haven't watched past the firsr episode but I wanted a Disney example.)
My take on this has always been: ship what you want as long as its not illegal, and if you see someone else shipping something you don't like but is otherwise harmless, ignore it and move on.
My thoughts exactly. I usually just stick to the pairings the given entertainment pushes and anything else is in the (for lack of a better word) friend zone. I don't mind Bowigi even though it's not a ship I'm super into because I don't have to see it and if I do it's my choice.
Same. Live and let live. As long as it doesn't make its way into reality, I really don't care what you ship, or what your kinks are. Don't shove it down my throat, and in turn I'll exercise my right to backspace out.
Well that's tricky too since legality isn't indicative of something being wrong/right for example in some countries existing as a gay person is illegal does that mean being in love with someone from the same sex is wrong? No, because as long as they're both consenting adults it's their business if they wanna be together.
GIRL WHAT !! THE LAST MINUTE ANNOUNCEMENT?? CONGRATULATIONS!! 💕