Vintage Heavyweight Receiver Bout! Pioneer SX1980 VS Sansui G901- Who Wins?
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- čas přidán 6. 09. 2024
- In this video, Kevin, Eric, and our friend Tony compare two vintage monster receivers in a blind audio test. After our roundtable, we all realized that we may not have that interesting of a video. With a little editing magic, we hobbled together an interesting little chat. Let us know what you think.
We think we all learned some things and even proved something Kevin has thought for years. Good amplification is good amplification. It won't make much difference between quality receivers from the golden age of Japanese stereos of the 1970s.
If you have any comments about the sound during the roundtable, you can save them. We are aware of the shift, we had a little glitch with our wireless mics. :-/
What do you think? Let us know in the comments!
Hope you enjoy it!
Visit skylabsaudio.com/shop for Skylabs merch and more! Thank you! Kevin
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Fascinating, I'm still amazed at how easy our listening can be manipulated by our psyche. Kevin nailed it, most quality receivers you can dial in to sound just how you want with an EQ or simple tone controls. Tony says it best, assuming you have a decent receiver to start with, the speakers and inputs will have much greater impact on sound. Im really digging this trio set up. I'm pretty sure Tony is Chuck Norris's little brother who inherited all his skills and an awesome deadpan stare. I'm not quite sure about Eric, but I like to pretend he's secretly a British agent trying to find out why Americans are so obsessed with cool stuff. Man I hope I'm right.
During the 1970’s and 80’s this would have been settled with a pizza, maybe a bottle of wine, and for sure a couple of joints. 😱😂👍✌️
For me and others, it was tequila 🤪.
Boomers ruined the country.
everyone tried their own methodologies back then... even blended them.@@robertwright5487
Nothing goes better with pizza than cold beer 🍺
@@arthuroconnor4300 Except more cold beer.
One of the best videos ever, Kevin, and a big part of it is Eric and Tony together. Both are my heroes.
Now I want to listen to Working Man by RUSH.
RUSH rules.
Great video Kevin. With my old ears the sound pouring from my system changes from day to day. I expect that to happen and maybe adjust what needs to be adjusted and sit back and still enjoy the music. At 75 years old I am glad that I have a system that's enjoyable and makes me very happy. I think most people are kind of married to a certain brand that they fell in love with and will stay with that brand anyway. Thanks Kevin
George from St. Pete
When choosing between two top tier vintage receivers with amazing sound it really comes down to what you want to look at it in your living room. I think it'd be interesting to do one of these monster receivers vs. something significantly less expensive & desired.
I’d put my Allied 395 up against these monsters. David vs. Goliath
@@bigb2020 I'm quite familiar with the Allied 395, having sold a bunch of them back in the day. When you get down to it, 55 wpc RMS into 8 ohms is only several ear-splitting Db below the output of those two brutes before clipping. BTW, the Allied 395 is identical to the Pioneer SX-1000TW except for the faceplate. We used to keep a 395 and SX-1000 side by side in our store's listening room. Some supposed audiophiles swore they could hear a difference even playing through the same speakers. Go figger . . .
Sometimes I prefer the front panel layouts, one over another. Or the dial lighting (Yamaha sucks, BTW). Other times, as a tech, I prefer the build quality and serviceability.
This is excellent. Forty years ago, my friends and I loved critiquing each other's systems. You took me back to the fun I used to have with stereos and hi-fi. All three of you are blessed to have each other's ears to help each other out! Mahalo nui loa and aloha to all of you!
You’re on the money! I use the same A/B switch and I found the same thing, amps don’t have a big difference, but speakers, that’s a different story. Speakers is where you hear the difference. That’s where A/B worth doing.
Kevin, your videos are great. 'Can't think of anything more fun than to dig into the vintage ear and eye candy on your channel every Sunday.
Oh, how about this: an A and B comparison of the phono stages in these gems. That was my gang's big deal - how they performed amplifying our licorice pizza - tasty vinyl!
I think it would be interesting to connect a turntable to these two receivers and see if there is a difference, because you would be using the phono pre-amp in the receivers.
A good point was made that these receivers have tone controls. You can adjust them to change the sound to what you enjoy.
Another good point was that almost no one has the perfect listening environment. You hear air conditioning, people talking, a dog barking, cars driving down the street outside, and on and on. I think it is best not to try to be perfect.
Hi Kevin, A bit late but had to chime in. Three great guys ,two great receivers, One excellent evaluation.
This is coming from a guy that had a SX 838 and still listens to CS 99a's. Circa 1975 purchase. (Looking for an 838 now) Suggestion for a part 2 to this video? All three of you guys go get Baseline Hearing Tests, Then as a short follow up video, (Pt 2) compare results, and discuss how our hearing changes as we age. Just went to see Sammy Hager the other night, great show!, I myself and friends were the few wearing ear buds amazing. Last year I had a hearing test, just for baseline, The Audio tech said. "Dang, for all most 70 years old , your hearing levels are pretty impressive, for a guy that worked around Jet aircraft in his younger years too?"
Ear buds!! Best Regards and keep doing what you do!
Joe R Ft Worth Texas
Kevin, I appreciate all the work that you & your two buddies put in to produce this video.
I’ve never owned a Pioneer receiver but have several friends who love them. I have owned several Sansui models & I now own a Yamaha CR-1020 that I personally like more than any Sansui I’ve owned.
Nice shootout.
Bottom line in anything home audio is beauty is in the ear 👂 of the beholder. What sounds great to you may not be my cup of tea…but that’s o.k.
That’s the way it should be.
Subjectivity is what makes this old world go round & round.
Again, thank all three of you for this video.
Outstanding!
Anecdotal for sure but here's what I experienced when I disconnected my Pioneer SX980 and replaced it with my Sansui G5700....I liked the SANSUI more. It seemed brighter, cleaner. But I have ignoramous ears. I have never used the words sibilance or tonality in my life. I do not have a zircon encrusted spacial dissassociator unit to provide cleaner power. I do not own an audio entabulator. I do not know what a sound stage is. I just know what sounds GOOD TO ME and my OLD ears. BUT to be fair, neither unit had ever been recapped and thoroughly "gone over" at that time. Both of them have now. Were I to swap them out today I might reach a different conclusion. I was listening through a pair of Klipsch KLF-30s paired with and a 15 inch Klipsch Sub. Another great vid. Many thanks.
Sibilance is illegal in all 50 states, BTW.
Hi there! I have a Sansui G-4700(50wpc) a qrx-6001 (25wpc x4) and an 8080db(80wpc).
My speakers are Infinity il40s, and Sansui sp-3000, sp-1700, SF-2, and some Boston Acoustics.
The speakers play a HUGE part in coaxing out the receivers potential. The sp-3000s have the best soundstage believe it or not. Sometimes I'm tricked into looking up. The Infinities are great all around. The sp-1700 have its own character, but lacks in bass at higher volumes.
This video was doomed from the beginning with those speakers.
Having played around with SO MANY configurations, I can tell you that lower Sansui amps have "the Sansui sound". If you've ever heard it, you know what I mean. The 8080db has more control buttons, but you have to mess around with them according to what you're listening to. It doesn't quite have the "Sansui sound".
I suspect that the bigger watt amps were for auditorium type situations, which is why I believe the guys in the vid couldn't hear a difference...both receivers were going for power while lower Sansuis go for finesse.
Anyway, enjoy your music! That's what this hobby is all about!
I really appreciate your honest opinions!
Tony’s comment about trying so hard to listen to the different nuances of the two that he failed to really listen to the music reminded me of our trip to the Grand Canyon.
I was taking pictures and my wife mentioned that I was missing the fact that I was truly at the Canyon and not seeing the true beauty of it at the moment.
Similarity, I was a member of an AACA antique car club and there are so many picky guys looking at every fault of each car that they never truly enjoy just the fact that the cars are stunning in their own right.
I would however love to see this test done with a couple of classic vintage tube amplifiers vs. a solid state and get your opinions as to the differences.
Thanks for sparing us the word salad about sonic differences. Even back in 1978, with brand new receivers, I suspect only subtle differences in the two amplifiers in the same product space would be apparent. As you have suggested many times, 45-50-year-old receivers at various levels of restoration will sound different. You can probably find as many or more sound differences between two SX-1980s or two G901s as you did between the two. Build the system you like with the receiver you like
Great video. Both recievers are legendary in their own right. The small nuances in the depth and sound stage is probably beyond my untrained ears. So for me it would come down to looks and build quality. But since I can't afford either one of these recievers, I'll just dream of owning any one of them.
I have a Pioneer 1080 and i love it. Never listened to any of those receivers but i will be happy with any of them. Pioneer and Sansui were at the top of the game in the 70s.
Very interesting. I'm glad you decided to post this video. Please keep 'em coming!
Excellent video, I would love more comparison videos like this. Great content, great vibe.
Sansui I think made the best , most musical transformers in vintage hifi. Sansui started as a perfected transformer builder first. I think the Sansui sound comes from this.
The only time I noticed differences between such equipment is when I purchased a Carver power amp and Carver preamp. It was the magnetic field amps, and the preamp was of the spatial design. I don't remember the model's but I sure miss them.
And the moral of the story is pick your speakers first.
Yup, and treat the room. After that, any properly working amp should sound basically the same.
Love the song 🎵 at the end. Thanks for the turn on never heard this
Kevin, IMHO you are exactly correct.
The order of importance is something like this:
1) Source material and taste.
2) The room & how it goes with the speakers.
3) Human ears and brain.
4) lastly (if the comparison is fair) the amplifiers.
-- also I am excluding the Solid State vs Tube issue. --
tube amps are probably of more variability. (and fun)
This was great! Thank you for sharing it.. most reviewers get hung up on these fancy descriptors but in most cases the differences are so tiny that it doesn't matter to the end user who's gonna be buying one amp to just enjoy music..
Keven, you are correct. Great video. Glad you did this and put it out there. A good amp does not change the signal. Look to speakers, room, source, to improve sound.
This pretty much sums up my personal experience over the years, as well as what I remember reading in Consumer Reports at the time when these units were new. Quality, price, and features where pretty much the only thing that differentiated one receiver from another, but there was a much bigger difference between the sources (turntables, carts, etc.) and the reproducers (speakers.) Back in the day the recommendation was to spend about 50% of your high fi system budget on the speakers, and the balance on the amplification and sources. Many people seem to be going about it backwards these days, and pick the receiver or amplifier first, and then ask which speakers will go with it, when really they should be choosing their speakers first, and then figuring out how much power they need to drive them. And to be honest, most of the time something in the mid power range band (45 - 60 wpc) is more than enough to drive any but the most inefficient speakers. So listen to Kevin. Save the A-B tests for the speakers, and to a lesser degree the music source, and then pick what your ears tell you to pick. The job of the amplification is not to add or subtract anything that the musician and/or recording engineer didn't intend to be there, just to amplify it.
Well, my opinion is probably bias because i own all Sansui vintage equipment (a lot of separates and a G-9000 and G-97000....My -9090 disappeared when the shop it was at closed w/o notice. never was able to retrieve it) mostly because the first receiver I ever bought was a G-5700 in high school in 1980......but if these two receivers are this close in all perimeters it seems like a simple decision if you are making your choice on performance and sound quality. Sansui.........because you get a nice G-901/G-9000 for much less than 1/2 the price of a -1980. The $6000-$8000 i see pioneer selling for is way out of hand for most, would be my guess.....so buy a G-9000 for $2000 and spend $800 for a full refurb and you are set for the rest of your life......IMHO.
I have three Pioneers SX1980 and a Sansui G22000 and think the Sansui had a very slight better high well the Pioneer had a much better mid and bass . I also put both trough them both a long run test and the Sansui started shutting down after five hours well the Pioneer just got better but the highs did get a littel fatigued and turned the highs down one click.
I'd be happy with either! You guys work well together.
That was a great video ! Keep it up!
Thanks Kevin for sharing, this was very interesting. You should do another listening test but have it setup so the listeners can see the 2 receivers but use a “dummy” switch with only one receiver being the true source. I wonder if the test subjects would be influenced by brand recognition and preconceptions?
Kev, Great video. It definably was fun. I totally agree with your findings. Thank you.
Hey Kevin, realIy enjoyed the video. I'd be interested in a video where you gentlemen compare an STK module based receiver, such as the Pioneer SX-650, to a discrete component based receiver. Of course the same criteria would apply. Same vintage, similar wattage etc.
In the 70's during the height of the Hi-Fi era the advise was to put your budget's money into speaker selection and phone cartridges, that is where differences in quality are created. Amps, even cheaper ones, were already good enough that no significant improvements in sound would be realized by more expensive amps in a given budgetary range of speakers.
That sentiment (viewpoint) is somewhat well expressed in this video and these 2 amps are so good that it really doesn't matter much.
PLUS, THIS VIDEO IS UTTERLY UNCHALLENGING FOR THESE AMPS!
In the 70's stereo magazines (reviewers) used to scientifically measure dynamic range. With test equipment they would switch an amp from, let's say, 1 watt output to let's say 100 watts output and measure the milli seconds that the amp needed to climb in output, that's why these top amps have such huge capacitors inside. Musically dynamic range is when you hear a solo, one violin and at a certain passage in the music, the other 67 instruments chime in, and this can be very sudden, creating an enormous difference in loudness in a very short time (milli seconds). And maybe the recording was made by having 2 microphones in front of the orchestra. Source material like Dire Straits is mixed with electronic equipment in the studio, it is, in fact, mixed on purpose to not have much dynamic range at all. And almost any amp will have better range than the source, except for digital sources. For example, the best phone cartridges may produce 28 db. dynamic range while almost any amp will be above 80 db.
Sound staging, the placement of sound is almost exclusively a function of the speakers and acoustics and the recording, an amp contributes almost nothing to this.
The open realistic sound of an amp quality is obtained by what you don't hear! Amps will amplify any signal coming in, it is the lack of noise, like hum and other electric noises that make an amp open and realistic sounding. Both these amps are sure to score "extremely" well in this regard.
Lastly, the quality of an amp is best shown by using speakers that are very challenging to an amp, inefficient and widely changing ohm loads among other things. JBL speakers are anything but challenging, they are engineered to be easy on amps.
That was a great head to head apples to apples comparison, do it again but compare two affordable low (20 to 40) watt receivers of the same era.
I am cheap so I make the best of the vintage pieces I have on hand and choose not to pursue perfection. I did splurge last year when I spent $300 on a pair of new bookshelf speakers for my set up, I had not purchased new speakers in more than 25 years when I wasted money on a surround sound theater set up.
100% agree that speakers and source are the real differentiators.
I always get a laugh out of internet forums, CZcams videos, and individual perceptions from the people I meet, as to what the best and greatest receivers are. I am now 62 and have been a vintage audio buff since the late 80's. I have owned about every piece of consumer level gear out there. If not, I have at least experienced them at one time or another. I owned an SX-1980 at one time and it was so disappointing. Don't get me wrong, it sounded good, but not great. McIntosh was always out of my budget, except for a 1900 receiver that sounded so bland I sold it very quickly. That said, my storied opinion is the best SOUNDING receivers are the ones with less than 85wpc. I especially like the early 70's Pioneer, Marantz, and Sansui. The ugly-ass HK receivers are on some kind of "God-level" in sound as well. Those just sound so dynamic and punchy. And most all of them just sound so good at reasonable listening levels. The key for all of us is to never let anyone tell you what sounds good to you. If you like it, that's all that matters.
Surprisingly, (because I often don't hear such differences on CZcams) I clearly heard a difference in the 'snap' and clarity of the snare drum, with the Sansui being preferred.
Ya, I like the video as well. The things you said in the video need to be conveyed to "the masses" more often. I've gotten hung on up hardware in the past but after years of swapping amps, I've decided they all sound basically the same. (no tubes, all SS in my spaces).
Now, I'd like to see a set of really sensitive speakers (Khorn level) used for an A\B using that 1980 and say, a Marantz 2230. Or go all the way LOL to a Marantz 2010. The lowest Marantz against the highest Pioneer.
I liked it. The fact that your friend did get the a and b correct says more about his experience and his ear than anything else. That was impressive. Most good gear sounds great. Most mediocre gear can be made to sound great with speakers and placement. Dial in the tonal controls, push that loudness button, listen to your music. There is a big difference when you move from Crosley Cruziers and other boom boxes to separates but the separates themselves, most are quality sound. I have a harmon kardon 230A which was the BOTL in the earlier 70's and it does sound different from my BOTL late '70's Marantz on an a to b. A lot changed in the tech from one to the other, both sound great. The two you did are so close, so close. The TOTL from two excellent manufacturers almost totally contemporaneous. Joy to get to listen to either of them! Thanks for not b.s.ing to make click bait!
Super fun conversation!
Because I am weird I am going to comment on something I bet no one else has picked up on but I did. I have a collection of 9 vintage receivers including a Sansui G-9000 and a Pioneer SX-1980. Love them both for many unique reasons. I have the Douk Audio VU3 Dual Analog VU Meter, 2-Way Amplifier/Speaker Switch, Audio Switcher Box with DB Panel Display. This switch has a flaw I hate that is seen clearly on this video. The Douk Audio VU3 Dual Analog VU Meter, is pulled to the point it sits high on its two back feet. The speaker cables put the box backwards because it weighs next to nothing. I have 3 of the exact same Douk Audio VU3 Dual Analog VU Meter and they all tip up when plugged in. Glad to see, it's not just ME!
Great video like everyone else has said. I just wanted to comment the the LED segmented VU meter on the back shelf was displaying Kevin's microphone levels. Kinda cool.
Yes! What a great shootout!! Please do more. You stacked your judging panel with a mulleted jedi knight. Well played. I wouldn't have given you creadence otherwise.
I'm not surprised by the results. By the mid-late 60's engineering of SS was at an early stage. Everyone was figuring out what worked or didn't work, so it makes sense the different brands carried a unique sound. As the technology rapidly progressed the manufacturers were all chasing a clean, low THD, powerful sound, etc. That's what people wanted as they were getting away from the tube era. By the end of the 70's manufacturers landed on the same page, but took different paths.
My man has a mad mullet. Just impossibly awesome. And as usual, great video.
The cool thing about this is that you can pick a receiver based on looks. I love looking at pretty components. That's part of the whole vintage experience. I like to do a little FM DXing so I would take the Sansui because of the IF Wide/Narrow Band selector.
Good video, actually quite revealing. This is why you should put the majority of your stereo budget into speakers.
Thanks Kevin!
I’m really glad you did this and it was very enlightening. As an owner of the SX-1980 for the last 46 years, I have heard so much bashing
on that receiver from Sansui, Marantz, Technics, etc. owners.
And this small demonstration shows that we are not so different after all..
I’ll be very curious to read the comments. ✌🏼
If you love it, who cares what other think? Personally I don't care for any of them from a sound quality point of view but you must love yours and we all hear differently anyhow.
Hey kevin, great video of this test. I'm not surprised that no one could tell the difference. If I take myself back to the 70s to my favorite HiFi store, the only way I could tell the difference between high-end receivers was when I pushed them to the upper limits, but at that point it's the speakers that makes the biggest difference in audio quality according to my ears. But now that I'm older and half deaf, from going to too many live concerts in my youth, I'm not sure it matters to me anymore. LOL
Both of those receivers are totally awesome and I would love to own either one, but given a choice, I think I would go with the pioneer, Maybe. 😉
Great video. Thanks for sharing it.
I disagree. I think this was a great video and very objective and revealing. I also found out about a great new band I'd never heard before and am definitely going to check out.
Definitely gonna be a fun one
I did not read all 140-ish comments posted prior to mine; so this may have already been said by someone else... But I would opine that there is a clear winner in at least 1 respect - and that is the Sansui.
Why do I say that?
Because the Pioneer 1980 will cost you about 3X as much today as the 9000 / 901 will cost.
So you can have essentially the same exact sound quality, etc. for significantly less $$$.
Now, the flip side to that is the Pioneer 1980 is a significantly rarer unit than the 9000. So, you do have that 'panache' to consider (if impressing your vintage audio friends with a rare piece holds greater importance to you)... and the 1980 will push more watts / go louder under extreme load (although IMO both are pretty much overkill if you value your hearing).
And, of course., there are aesthetics to consider. You may love the look of the Pioneer / hate the look of the Sansui. Or love the look of the Sansui / hate the Pioneer. But looks are very subjective (which is fine, BTW).
But from a purely sonic perspective... which one sounds better - or, more to the point, does the more expensive unit sound appreciably / objectively "better" than the less expensive unit..? It would seem that the answer is NO. Both have excellent, extremely similar sound quality... and, as was pointed out in the video - if you want to hear appreciable changes, try out different speakers (not amps)...
I did an A B last summer for Kevin and I picked a $180 Chinese amp over a high end amp Can't imagine which one I would pick between those two heavy weights. If it is the sound your looking for go for it!! Couple more weeks and I will be back in Iowa. Looking forward to seeing what I can't do without at Skylabs.
A friend loaned me a Class D amp (A07 something) and I did notice a bit of a pleasing "brightness" to it. As an old guy with crappy ears, I typically bump up the treble a few notches for my space\ears. But this Class D amp didn't need that.,..
My friend revealed that this line of amps have a freq bump at (IIRC) 4K or something. I thought that was interesting and wonder if that's what you heard as well.
After listening to them this way, streaming music from your phone it would have been nice to hear how vinyl would sound through both of these. There might be more sound difference in their phono preamps. The Douk Audio amp/speaker switcher/VU meter is a cool device. I listen to movies and TV through my AV receiver and music through one of my vintage receivers, the switcher makes it really easy.
This video is real life. Lots of work and not getting the results you want or are expecting. Like life, you just need to make sure you have fun along the way, hope you guys had a good time hanging out!
Knowing there is not really a difference is as important as knowing what differences there are, in my genius opinion.
I watched this and thought it would be even more interesting to do an A,B, X comparison. X of course being receiver of the same vintage but not so well known.
An enjoyable and really telling installment. Also a pleasant diversion to my Spring Training Baseball in Bradenton. This was not a simple thing to "throw together", which is why there are not a ton of this kind of content. This was actually a great example of what all three of you said -- it is nigh to impossible to REALLY tell a definitive difference, all things done correctly.
That WAS a good video, Kevin! Thank you so much for goin’ ahead and posting it. You do a great job of balancing the desire for sonic quality with real world limitations.
The comparison that I’d like to see is between different models in each brand’s line-up. For example - SX650 vs SX850 vs SX1050 vs SX1250. Of course the issue would be what speakers to use, right? Is there a set that would be appropriate for 650 and 1250?
It would be fun to hear you-guy’s opinions about where the biggest improvements happen as one progresses from 35wpc to 160wpc.
Also - great choice listening to Dire Straits ‘Brothers in Arms’! IMHO other good recording would’ve been something from Peter Gabriel’s ‘So’ or, of course, Steely Dan’s ‘Aja’ or ‘Gaucho’. SD’s last album, ‘Everything Must Go’ would’ve been fun to hear from these killer receivers too!
I will say that I have a decent sound system on my computer (Cambridge Audio) and I was hard pressed to hear a difference between the receivers as well. It is as Kevin said, the receivers were probably so close in design that they have nearly an identical sound signature. What I would love to hear is if you pit amplifiers from different eras (but same power) and see if you hear a difference. Also as Tony pointed out, I too could hear the differences between a Sansui and a Marantz and a Yamaha. Generally, the Sansui is more balanced, where as the Marantz has a warmer, but more high end. Yamaha is more clinical and has more low end. The latter was a big problem for me because I really do like the build quality and looks of the Yamaha, but I CAN hear a difference. It would be cool if you guys actually did a shoot out between a Sansui and a Marantz, a Sansui and a Yamaha, and finally a Marantz and a Yamaha. Also, another thing I do want to add is that if you used more of a higher end speaker, it might reveal more in regards to detailing. Granted JBL is no slouch, but perhaps using a pair of studio monitors, such as those from Yamaha might reveal something. It was still a cool test to at least reinforce the fact that the amplifier is not as critical to the signal chain as speakers would be, or a good phono cartridge on the front end.
If two competing amplifiers are both within ±1.0 dB over a frequency response of 20 to 20,000 Hz with less than 0.05% THD, they really should sound the same. The specs shouldn't lie.
Kevin you need to get a better set of speakers to hear the difference I am running a pair of ar 9s I can hear a big difference
even more important is if the bench setup is where everything was placed theni the speakers were in horrible placement and not doing there best out of the gate. This will make a huge difference. Someone may argue that the amps were still under the same conditions so it's a fair race but if you can't heare what the speakers are actually doing it's not going to work out.
I say, hang those differences! I love both of them equally. The test also points at shootouts of current Integrated Amplifiers from Parasound, Hegel, McIntosh, Pass, Bryston, Musical Fidelity, Anthem, Ayre, Luxman, Accuphase, and Mark Levinson among others, sans tuners. In short, transistor choice, power supplies, and capacitance rules! It’s the different formulas in design destinations that hallmark true uniqueness.
Next do the Pioneer sx 626 vs. Sansui au 117 vs. Sherwood 7100 After being into vintage audio for awhile I'm a minimalist. 😂😂
How about a BLIND comparison between a 30w receiver and a 100+ watt receiver?
Damn that’s a power mullet right there. 10/90 for life 😂
Hey Kevin in my opinion I thought this video was very interesting I thought I was crazy because I couldn't hear the difference either with my stereos I couldn't afford a top-notch or pioneer most of my stuff is mid-range that sounds interesting that the three of you experts couldn't tell the difference and then when you switched into the second session and mix it up and it got all mixed up with your opinions that just show you that if you have a high-end stereo give me just a matter if you got it from Sansui or Pioneer or Yamaha or Sony or any other top notch HiFi you're going to get some good stuff
I would suspect a treated room would be a much better environment for that test.
Edit: The 100k treated room comment seems naive. $500-$1,000 can do a lot, much more noticeable than sideways gear swaps. You are talking about receivers that sell for over $5k.
At least theoretically, two receivers with substantially the same specs, with tone controls flat, should sound substantially identical. That said, I compared the built in amplifier of my HK 930 against the Phase Linear 700 (output of the HK's preamp into the PL700), and what I noticed was that the HK had a lower noise floor, which translated to greater clarity in the music (not really driving them hard at all so not dealing with clipping). Speakers will generally sound different, and even an identical pair would sound different when placed differently in the room.
Audio engineers insist that the overall sound of a system is primarily impacted at the transducers-- those points where a physical sound wave is converted to an electronic signal and the reverse. That would be the phono cartridge and microphone (if applicable) on the input side and the speakers on the output side.
Totally not surprising result especially using a streamer. There might be a difference in the phono sections but that's unlikely as well, but when I was shopping back in the day ( late 70's ) I don't ever remember a startling difference in sound between receivers from pioneer/ marantz/ Kenwood/ sansui/ onkyo etc... it came down to looks, feel, specs, and price, which is why I settled on an Onkyo A-5 back then- I liked the look and feel of the controls and finally price / value for wattage/ performance. I wish I would've kept it ( I replaced it with a late 90's /early early 2000's Onkyo receiver). and then a 2010's Harman Kardon. and now I've returned to late 70's with an Onkyo TX6500. This time ,however it does sound way better than the HK surround sound receiver with more grunt and two channel sounds better for music. I settled on an Onkyo vs other brands from that era for the same reasons- looks, (never liked the thumb wheel), specs, and price / value ( no marantz tax, no pioneer tax for a 100watt or near 100 watt receiver) - paid $250 plus another $200 for my tech (mostly for the FM alignment).
Good video, keep them up!
The Pioneer SX1980 sounds just very slightly better to me, especially the low-end punch. Both receivers have fantastic sound.
Bigger difference with preamps than amps & as stated much bigger difference with speakers.
With DACs it's more the op-amp.
I owned an SX 850 and a Sherwood S 8910 (with an on off button not on the volume) they were close in wattage. I borrowed a G 7500 while my sherwood was being fixed and I found the Sansui to be flatter like the Sherwood but with much better bass. I always found the pioneet to be the most fun to play with and best for rock type music that is in your face. I have loved Sherwood all my life since our first in 67 but dang the sansui sound is incredible also
Even Better I listened to A SX1280 And SX1980 at the Stereo Shop with Equal Volume as close as possible anyway and They were the Same, obviously the 1980 would Drive Speakers Louder, how about Testing a 1250 and a 1280, because there are more people that Swear they can Hear the Difference!!
Great Video!
Great, at this level you’d expect them to be very close. I’d like to hear a comparison between the Big ass Pioneer and maybe an SX1250 or a 1050.
Both receivers were made during the wattage wars...You’re better off comparing the lower wattage earlier 70s units such as sansui 881 versus the pioneer sx 838 when sound quality was more emphasized…I personally loved both of those 2 receivers..over the later 70s power war receivers.
Its kinda like comparing Honda with Toyota. I can appreciate Pioneer, but my preference is Sansui, especially a G-901 or G-9000, its a top notch unit, I own both in my Sansui collection.
Keep in mind when trying to make comparisons, the SX-1980 is their top model, whereas if you wanted to compare the same with Sansui, it would be the G-33,000.
There are many factors to consider- both of these models were made when vinyl was the main format, thus it would be about their phono preamps, whereas you listened & judged via music streaming. There was also no mention of any restoration work done on either amp that could affect its performance. Furthermore, the JBL speakers seem ok, but there are many speakers to listen to that can influence the sound quality your ears perceive, as well as how they are setup in the acoustics of your listening room.
Other comments/info would have been good too- which has the better build quality, which is less complicated to troubleshoot and repair, how about their performance into low impedance/reactive speaker loads as measured on the test bench?
The biggest diff ive ever heard ( same topology ) has been Yamaha vs other DC coupled competitors.. Thats the only one that really stood out as different for me.. The rest are really hard to pick out against each other.. Im sure there's small nuances but for the most part they were very very similar.
There's a thread in Audiokarma under the Yamaha CR 3020 regarding the differences in sound between these receivers, 1980/9000/22000 . I've had these Pioneer in the 90s, 1250/1280/1980 & Sansui G9000 which are absolutely Golden pieces. However I can only keep one so I held on to the Yamaha CR3020
Also from Audiokarma these Pioneers are voice to be match with HPM 100/150/1500.
Great video; thanks!
I didn't notice differences in sound until I picked up a pair of McIntosh XR14s. They arent hard to drive, but they are packed with insulation and the 10" woofer has some impressive xmax with well damped amplifiers. You can definitely hear the depth down low, even at low volumes. I own probably 15 or so vintage units. The XR14s hate modern (even flagship) AVRs. Very clinical sounding with weak bass. And yes, the crossover was disabled and fronts set to large. The 70s Pioneer's, Technics, Matantz, and early 80s Yamaha and JVC really made a difference in sound. An early 2000s HK sounded terrible. Late Sony ES 80s and 90s models are amazingly clean, revealing, and punchy. Very impressive with little distortion. But they lack that throatyness and sparkle on top the 70s and early 80s units have. And anything after the early 90s looses damping factor which produces that bass that makes you say, these do not need a subwoofer. And I own several amazing subs. Very eye opening. One last thing to remember are that 30 plus year old receivers and amps do need a recap, as you will lose Fidelity and bass with dried out capacitors.
Kevin, I had got the same impression as your now short haired pal that the a=sansui was a little crisper in the upper tones, but that maybe a psychological phenomenon. As we heard the a-receiver first, we held the impression in mind and to decide the b-receiver to be the better sounding one or maybe even as good as that in our mind it would had been necessary to sound at least a little better, because a positive experience in our mind tends to increase its positivity in our mind. This maybe a mechanism to give our recall a better anchorage in our mind. In consequence the posive memories are a bit more positive than the reality and the negative memories are a bit more negative, just to make sure, that if we only remember a little fraction, that we remember the most important attribute, which is was it good, positive or bad, negative for us. Selective abilities in terms of supporting survival in human history.----
Kevin, what do you think about the nikko 8085 ?
My only regret is that I couldn't like twice! well done. Another option would be to test one of these receivers vs. a much cheaper unit like a Sherwood 7300.
How about a Top-of-the-Line Pioneer showdown?
SX1010 vs SX1250 vs SX1980
You're findings are not super surprising. Both of these receivers are quite nice. I wish you would concentrate a part of your review on the build quality of these two receivers. I used to repair all of this stuff back in the late 1970's to early 1980's. I remember that many families of the Pioneer receivers (the SX-XX50 series for sure), where the power supply board was in the underside center, would just cook themselves. Lots of cold solder joints on the semi's that would run too hot, and lots of lytics that were domed and leaking and needing replacement. I Don't recall if the SX-1980 suffered this same malady. I do remember that for several years (this is 30-40 years ago) that almost every SX-780 that came into the shop had a cold solder joint on a heatsunk TO220 that ran hot as heck (Perhaps 2SD313 on the +13V PSU?). They would come in with the complaint of "No sound" and you could remove the bottom cover, touch up the solder and have it running again in 5 minutes.
I don't recall the Sansui G901 having any chronic weak points: I would love for you guys to note things like that, I.E. "The push-push switches are notoriously intermittent on this model", things of that sort. Sansui also made their share of dogs: I remember the Sansui TA-300 and TA-500: We did Warranty repair for all of the major brands, and we has stacks of the TA-300/500 units in, sometimes 20 at a time! I also recall these two particular models had one of 4 top cover screws shorter than the other. If you mistakenly put the long screw into the hole near the front panel AC power switch, that it would short out the power switch! Too funny, a total shock hazard!
I had a career as a product designer of audio equipment in the Professional market, just retiring after 40 years in the business. I would love it if you would show more of the innards of these products and show what makes for a truly good product! Yamaha made many different amplifiers of topologies that were extremely innovative in the 1980's. American made Marantz gear (both tube and transistor) was built to an extremely high standard. Show us more of the guts! I would love to see videos on some of the old tube gear (Marantz model 7, Harmon Kardon Citation II power amplifier, a few old Dynaco pieces, etcetera). Is there a market any more for this old tube stuff? Maybe this older tube gear is of no interest to your subscribers. Maybe the more technical dives into the guts of these products are also not of much interest either. I'd just have fun seeing both things, as an old fart that started in Audio repair back in 1978, was lucky enough to make a living in audio until I retired this year, one who never fell out of love with the total wonderfulness of audio and the devices that we design to create and reproduce music!
Cheers on what you guys do!
great effort / great discussion of how to surface issues of perceiving fine distinctions of similar, excellent audio systems. implementing rigorous methodology is very demanding. one must clarify intent & testing limits... how deep to go into it. to you (& your friends) credit you touched on critical questions; "what resolution are we willing to pursue in order to discover a phenomenon?" "are all other components in the signal path well-matched (or at least "known-matched") AND more resolving than the units we are investigating?" "is source material adequately revealing?" "is the listening space appropriate?" "is this wine really really good enough?". when in the design & dev biz back in the previous century, I took part in exactly what you guys did - only w/ speakers (complex integrated devices on their own, & as we all know, easier to discern distinctions when making direct comparisons... & relatively challenging to evaluate objectively). upshot (for me): "final assessments are always subjective." put another way, if everything in the test methodology / system / space is correct, then selection (of "best", or whatever) will be obvious, uncertain or a matter of taste. a variant of what you put often & well; "these are just my own opinions".
I believe you guys arrived at a great conclusion establishing the Sansui & Pioneer are excellent examples of their type, very very similar for their purpose. going beyond your intent to discern distinctions via perception (which undoubtedly exist at some level) achieves near-irrelevancy for the special interest owners of these classics.
{for me, the arguable extension to your methodology would be to swap out 2 or 3 additional speakers (though that JBL is a very good one for your purpose); &/or utilizing a SOTA "overqualified" speaker (lotsa $$$s & known for bordering on over-analytical) & trying similarly monitor-style headphones + conducting mid & far-field tests in a larger space & at higher volumes... just for fun.}
I like the Sansui
I’d be interested in seeing the same comparison against an older McIntosh.
Macintosh has excellent build quality ,appearance, and are known to build very powerful amps, but I have never ever heard anyone say they sounded outstanding..good,but not outstanding including me…
Bet all three would hear the difference if a Mac was in play. And they’d probably prefer the non Mac units!
I’ve owned Mac separates and integrated amps. Key word “owned” past tense, but my SX-1050 is still around. I miss the big blue eyes for sure but not the sound. Was it bad, no, just nothing there to keep me interested.
The Pioneer at the end of your video sounded slightly faster, the notes were slightly better defined, and ever so slightly more refined. The Pioneer reminds more of Yamaha than the Sansui. I like the Yamaha sound and listen to their equipment often. It wasn't a huge difference but it was noticeable.
What I want to see is size comparisons lol. I have a 1980 and wonder how it looks next to a big Sansui 9000g
Spot on amps mostly sound the same to me as well, sometimes one might have more hiss as for speakers they all sound different to me even ones of the same model!
I remember lusting after both of these receivers in 1979 - but then, I was 11... I can surely dig the nostalgic aspects of both of these pieces, but would never confuse them with real Hi-Fi - they certainly are not. Sort of makes A-B comparisons pointless - my $.02
If you used a better speaker that were full range and transparent, you might’ve heard some differences, I don’t know maybe they sound very close even with better speakers like Magenpans 3.6/ B&W 802/ Vandersteen 3a/ . In the end if your happy with what you are hearing just enjoy. 😊
Even with better speakers although JBL makes very good speakers, sound differences would’ve been still subtle..those 2 receivers were built to deliver power,not detailed sound like the lower wattage receivers..by both brands,and others..
Maxell, it's worth it. I remember that ad when I was in high school. Nice Skylabs twist to it. Do you know if a medium size runs small or large? I know it will shrink at 100% cotton.
Sansui is slightly brighter in treble but it’s not enough to pick one over the other. Epic mullet on your buddy though.
I really enjoyed this video and the conversation and appreciate the work you do, but I do feel that, if you’re going to go through the trouble of doing a blind listening test, don’t go changing the A for the B secretly on your buds. I have no idea if Tony needs to cut his hair, it leaves the impression that you are doing it to support your opinion that you can’t tell the difference. Anyway, it’s all in good fun and, still fun to watch.
Switching them between songs was an option we all agreed upon prior to the test. They were allowed to switch them on me as well.
I would be the biggest asshat in the world If I invited friends of mine to shoot a video so I could trick them into supporting my thoughts.
All things considered, the a/b thing at the end of this video had me leaning sansui at the start because it's lower end was better. Mids/highs were too close to call with my ears. But then you changed between the two a few more times and at that point they sounded damned near identical to me......and I listened the whole way through several times......weird.......