Diastatic malt timelapse | What does it do for your rise? | Foodgeek
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- čas přidán 5. 09. 2024
- Let's see what adding diastatic malt powder does for the rise of your dough. I will add different amounts if diastatic malt powder to 4 starters (plus one control without any) and we'll see how high and how fast they will grow. Is is the magic ingredient that it's made out to be?
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Did you ever do that follow-up video of how the bread comes out with or without DMP?
Looks like your flour already had enough α-amylase in it already.
If you had flour with very low amounts of α-amylase, then adding DMP will substantially increase volume.
Lots of millers standardize their α-amylase in their bread flours by adding some malted grain/flour or sometimes α-amylase directly so that flour performs the same from batch to batch. For millers who don't and have a lot of variation due to climate or just really dry climates or perfectly sound wheat, adding DMP can be useful if you notice your flour is underperforming (or your measured the falling number is like 450).
Nice experiment. I've been using it for the lateral effect of a prettier crust, really. Especially in "white" bread (whole-meal rye starter and white wheat for main dough). The first time I used it, I used the recommended small %, but after that I've been getting better results with around 3% of diastatic malt.
Wow. I just watched a entire video on starter rising.... and enjoyed it.
Nice , also besides the rise I believe it’s used primarily for home oven baking to add flavour and in browning of the bakes , especially pizzas !
Thanks , have learnt a lot fm your channel over the years !
Diastatic malt should never be used in combination with long fermentation and thus it should never be added to the starter but only to the main dough.
"There are two basic types of malt syrup: diastatic and non-diastatic. Diastatic malt contains a group of enzymes called diastase, which breaks down starch into sugars that can be acted on by yeast. Thus, diastatic malt, when added to bread dough, is a powerful food for yeast. It is used when fermentation times are short. It should not be used when fermentation times are long because too much starch will be broken down by the enzyme. This results in bread with a sticky crumb."
Source: Professional Baking, by Wayne Gisslen, Wiley Publishing.
Furthermore, diastatic malt is predominantly used with yeast based doughs, not with sourdough based ones because the lacto-bacteria in sourdough already perform the function of breaking down starch into simple sugars. With additional diastase activity this results in the same unwanted side effects as when using diastatic malt in long fermentation doughs.
Last but not least, in four with lower gluten content, diastase activity leads to protein breakdown that reduces the baking properties of the dough.
Source: Technologie der Backwarenherstellung, Schünemann & Treu, Gilde Publishing.
Thus, with sourdough based doughs and with long fermentation, it is better to use non-diastatic malt for its enhanced caramelising effects if so desired.
The point of adding it to the starter is to see how it works. Not to add it with the starter when making bread 😊 Thanks for the info. It looks like it may be worth testing in a warm fermentation 😊
@@Foodgeek Fair enough, but I would venture a guess that most of your viewers will not be aware of this and likely take away the wrong lessons. Perhaps, you want to do a follow up video where you do a baking experiment, say three yeast based doughs, short fermentation time, one without diastatic malt, one with a low dose of diastatic malt, and one with an overdose of diastatic malt. Then you could do another video with a yeast based long fermented, a sourdough fermented long fermented, each without diastatic malt, and another pair each with diastatic malt. Then compare all the loaves. It'd be a bit of an effort, but worthwhile.
@@trijezdci4588 Excellent point, and I also would love to see the experiments you proposed. I'm subbing Foodgeek just in case he's game for the challenge.
Regarding the possibility of misleading viewers, I don't think I would have found this video if I hadn't done a good bit of research beforehand. Should he have mentioned it? Sure. Are we all a bunch of food geeks that didn't need that info, and that are watching this at 1:00am after a half bottle of wine? Yup.
Diastatic malt powder can certainly be used for long fermentation breads .. it all depends on what type of crumb structure you are looking for .. a good example is the chewy texture of bagels, particularly when combined with the slightly lower hydration that bagels require (55-60% on average) .. a texture perhaps you consider "unwanted" but others love! .. The key with diastatic malt powder is getting the percentage right .. if it is rise you are after 1.5-2%+ is necessary but if it is chewy texture, then 0.5-1% works great .
Why?
If you use too much diastic malt powder it ends up really gummy. The bread will look fine but the texture ends up pretty terrible.
I was just about to order some diastatic malt when your video popped up. Can't wait to see the results after baking. I have recently been using Bob's Red Mill bread flour that has diastatic malt in it already and have liked the results a lot. Looking forward to your next video!
Just watched this video and read your comment. Had you used any other type of flour prior to the Bob’s Red Mill with the diastatic malt in it? I’m curious to know if notice any difference between the rises in a finished bread. Thanks
Very nice to see these results actually documented. Thanks for your time 👍🏻
Thanks again Sune... You truly do these things so we dont have to :) And i just bought the *precision scale* from your link even though i have a different one ;) ...,.. have been picking up a few other things from there as well,, here and there. Support the good guys :)
Thank you Jill
Sune .. always love your videos and appreciate the work you put into them .. On this occasion, I understand the focus was on how diastatic malt powder contributes to oven spring/rise .. but that's only half of the magic! .. DMP is a common ingredient in bagels, as a way of helping (by way of a lower percentage than your experiment here, and with lower hydration) to achieve the characteristic chewy crust and crumb .. Would be most interested in a follow-up video (as you mentioned) to demonstrate the properties of DMP in an actual bake .. not just focusing on the oven spring .. Thanks! Keep up the good work!
It's a good point and it is already on my list :) So many experiments, so little time :)
@@Foodgeek Did you end up doing this real bake experiment with DMP. I couldn't find in your channel? If you did can you post a link? THanks
Interesting experiment! Thanks for your efforts, well produced video.
Thank you, and you're welcome :D
Interesting! I've never used it with the starter, only in the main dough (around 1-2%). It helps feeding the yeast as it breaks down starches, especially during long cold proofing.
The reason I do it with starters is just to show how it works in a dough 😊
I was on my way already to put the malt on my pizza dough recipe haha thanks for the tip!
Thanks for your comment. I purchase diastatic malt powder after watching Charlie Anderson’s great video on how to make a Detroit-style pizza. I think (though I may be mistaken) his pizza was made with yeast. However, I hoped to make a sourdough pizza crust. The Regular Chef also has a great video on Detroit-style pizza and he used a sourdough. However, he didn’t use diastatic malt powder. Have you made a sourdough Detroit-style pizza using diastatic malt powder?
Good to kmow, you for the experiments. I am from Singapore. I am watching a lot of your videos.
Aren’t Weck glasses the greatest? Love your channel. Much love from Germany.
can you show the finished product of bread baked with and without diamalt?
Perfect timing! I just started using this this week!
Excellent food geekery!
Thank you ❤️
I hope you make a loaf which each percentage and let us know what you think. Super interesting. The 2.5% has really big bubbles. I wonder if that is similar to over proofing?
Math question. You mentioned percentage of flour weight for adding the powder. But then you added water weight to the flour weight and then took a percentage... Shouldn't the amount of added powder be based solely on the flour weight of the mixture without water? Sorry if I'm a noob but I want to get this right. Many thanks, great video.
You didn't mention... did you use malted flour in your starter!? Perhaps do the experiment using an unmalted flour in the starter like an italian flour?
Just regular flour without any additives :)
@@Foodgeek which flour though? Many retail flours are malted already.
Not in Denmark. The only thing that can be added is ascorbic acid.
Based on my observation, it appears that the "diastatic malt" powder is most benificial if time, (faster/sooner) is of essence.
From 4-5 hours, the (gas/holes) are larger in the 2.5 with the control and 1.0 (slight 1.5), almost similar.
After 07:00 the difference become almost, irrelivant, with nearly identical findings/has holes, (across the board), at hours 08:00+.
Again, if time is if the essence, I would see the benefit of this. Otherwise, it becomes a matter of taste.
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Great vid by the way, saw the guitars and know that art/music as well as science, (scales, percentage, volume, weights and measure), go hand-in-hand with the creative types.
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Diastatic malt (active) only for wheat dough for rye doughs which contains more enzymes better inactive malt especially wholemeal . According to my sources 0,5-3%. I guess more enzymes will destroy glutens. I only use non active malt for rye to increase flavour and darken a bit (1.5%).
Can you please tell me what NDM you use for rye bread? Who makes it and where can I buy it? Thanks
@@veronicakhazan5215 in Germany from baking shops or from the mills
Do you live in Germany?
Do you use rye malt or barley? I can’t find NDM for bread making in US. Thanks
@@veronicakhazan5215 🤔 I am from Germany living in Asia. Usually I buy malt in DE because more choices than here. I use rye malt for rye bread and barley for wheat breads (but not always). If you can’t get inactive but active one: heat up the active powder to 80+Celsius this will kill the natural enzymes
I used the malt in the German Kaiser rolls and according the author it helps with the taste and the browning. I used 5 g or 1 tsp. I noticed that my king Arthur bread flour has malted Bailey flour. Not sure how much except the protein for the flour is 12.7g which is a little lower than 13g for hard red wheat flour. May be they added to help the rise.
call King Arthur and ask them, they have very nice and knowledgeable cs.
I would be interested to know how this affects actual loaves of bread. Both the rise, and crumb. Will it affect the flavour?
Most of this is of interest to brewers more than bakers.
The enzymes in malt break up beta glucans(sticky stuff in rye) at 37-45c and moderate acidity pH 4.7-5.2. Large pectins are also broken at this temperature, but a higher pH of 5.0-5.5. (Both are used to make it easier to separate grain from sugary liquid extract, brewers do not want sticky dough.)
The enzymes break up protiens into yeast nutrient "free amino acids" at low pH 4.3-5.1 and 45-55c, although much of this happens during malting so only a big consideration when mixing malted with unmalted grain. Separate from yeast needing amino acids, proteins affect the haze and clarity of beer.
Starch is broken into fermentable sugar 55-66c pH 4.8-5.4 (beta amylase), and 68-73c with modest pH 5.3-5.7 (alpha amylase) Beta is destroyed around 67c, Beta clips the tips off starch chains and cannot go past a branch, while alpha chops up big chunks at random reducing the viscosity and water holding capacity of the mix.
All of these enzymes have some small activity below the ideal temperature range and are destroyed a few degrees above their respective ranges(When wet, they are more durable when dry).
While in the ideal temperature and pH ranges they will finish their job in about 10-40 minutes.
Barley malt has the most enzymes, but all malts have a few.
Oh...I love “experiment time” 😌
Hi! Did you ever get round to doing the experiment of actually baking with Diastatic Malt Powder? I suspect the difference won’t be enormous. Does it affect oven spring? Or the time of long ferment. I would guess for the latter yes.
No, it didn't really seem like there was a lot of interest for that experiment, but I think you're right, not a huge difference :)
@@FoodgeekI'm definitely interested!
The difference was rather minimal. How about using non-diastatic malt extract? Or just plain sugar?
Great vid as always bro
Thank you ❤️
I feel like the light on the right side might influence the rise, since it should be slightly warmer on that side.
Both lights are LED and doesn't put out any heat 😊
@@Foodgeek Light is a transmission of energy though...
Obviously it'd be a lot of raw materials, but I'd love to see this done with a larger sample size than 1.
Sune...based on this I can assume this is just being used for a levain...and NOT for use in a seed starter one would keep in frig?? I am curious if the diastalic addition affects the time of peak for those of us that may not catch it at right time. I've been know to fall asleep and neglect that levain...a few times...LOL! IS it more likely to fall or stay at peak longer?? Questions Questions...You did say you was a geek so we didn't have to be...LOL! WAiting for the final results...
I have been using diastatic malt flour for a while now. As much as it makes more sugars for 4he yeast it destroys gluten. I often find my breads do not rise as much and can more delicate if more than about 2% is used. Also the crumb can become gummy and really not pleasant to eat. Like politicians, small doses or it really gets unpleasant.
But this is a good thing! .. If you are making bagels! ;)
Alpha-amylases are the enzymes in charge of digesting starch and are naturally present in all seeds. Malted flour (diastasic) has a higher content-activation of these enzymes. The starch polymer itself together with the network formed by glutenin and gliadin are as a whole responsible for the structure of baked bread. The controlled release of glucose monomers from starch is the source of food for the yeast in your dough. If you overdigest your flour (more than 1% of diastasic flour) you will end up with a pretty-horrible (?) mess. I use a maximum of 0.3% diastasic flour, then I leave resting the dough mixture 10-12 hours, knead and shape, another rest of 30-60 minutes, and finally baking at 210 oC (410 oF) / 45 minutes. Note that I leave in a place located at nearly 2,800 meters (9,100 ft) over sea level.
I'm always open to learning and trying something new. So after trying diastatic malt power, I am deeply disappointed with the results when I used it to make french bread and basic German rolls. Yes, the product may look better and brown better, but you will loose the nice crispy crust and instead get a chewy soft crust. Actually the crumb also get way too chewy. So from now on, I'll just stick with the ingredients that have worked just fine for hundreds of years: flour, water, yeast and salt.
It sounds like you may have used too much. Diastatic malt powder is made from sprouted grains, so I am sure it's been used for a long time too 😊
Good morning! Did you make the follow up video you mentioned at the start of this video? I'm so curious what happens in the baking of the actual bread. If you did make it could you please respond with the title of the video. Thanks for your time and content!
Yes, I've added the link. Thank you 😊
Here's the video: fdgk.net/sourdough-focaccia-video
@@Foodgeek Thanks, but this recipe didn't use diastatic malt powder .. ??
@@RGS61 Agreed ... Sune, you out there? 🤨
This malt powder you use had dextrose in it - which is basically a sugar. I wonder if a bit of sugar would do the same thing.
Sorry - I just saw that you did a sugar-added experiment!
Amazing video, really helpful.
Thanks for another great experiment!
Too much DMP can give your bread a rubbery crumb and in some cases, turn the crust from beige/brown to a more reddish hue.
I would have done control, 1% 2% 4% and 8% ( Just based on prior research with chemistry and biology, geometric progressions are the way to go unless you already know the optimal range is very narrow, and bracket way outside the normal target. )
Unless it significantly adds to the flavor, I probably wouldn't use it. When you bake the bread you might also use a control without the malt to make a taste comparison.
Yes, a control is always needed 😊
More than 3% with the salt in the bread you will test acidic notes ton like sourness but more like citric acid
I think you want to make the bread, because I’ve read on Fresh Loaf that too much will make the dough mushy. That’s possibly the reason for the 2% max.
if use forpizza how many % to recepi for napolitan pizza
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Hi Sune, thanks for the awesome video. Pls can you check if the diastatic malt affects the gluten structure of the bread. I added the diastatic malt at 2% vol, but my loaf rose and collapsed during baking. Please help!!!
This is a total guess, but I would make sure to use the highest protein flour you can get if using more than 1.5%. I think that the 2.5% would have risen more, but the structure gave out. More protein = more gluten = more strength. IMO anyway
Diastatic malt is full of enzymes which break down starches into sugars. If you put too much into your dough your dough will turn into a syrup. You can read a bit more about malts in my blog blog.benchandbowl.com/2019/09/04/rye-malt/
According to "Modernist Bread" it's used in much smaller amounts for breads which undergo long cold fermenation. They use 0.15-0.3% much less than you use.
It's not used to improve the rise, but to protect to bread from the long-term effects of fermentation.
do you mind giving more details on how it protects the bread from long-term fermentation?? i'm really curious
I noticed your link to a precision scale is not the scale you used in your video. Your Palmscale 8.0 seems to be much more expensive.
Can I use this in my initial starter to get it going just a little bit faster? I wonder.
The best way to get it started faster is to put it somewhere warm. When I make a new starter I put it in my proofer set to 30°C/86°F :)
What I was trying to communicate below was that, when I knead more flour into my bread dough, it seems to become more elastic allowing it to capture more bubbles. If so, using a more elastic dough in your experiment would likely show a truer result for the type of bread that I last baked. Also, if you happened to have baked the test samples of dough from your experiment, was there much difference between their textures and flavors?
Ive searched for your promised diastatic malt bread baking video but could not find it? please post the link..
I don't mind posting failures, but I just didn't think it was a video worth making, in the end 😊
thanks!! useful
I purchase my flour with Malt added. My bread is always a nice even golden brown. From what I have read about malt the main reason for adding malt seems to be even browning. Your baking tests should clear this up.
Well, there's diastatic and non-diastatic. Diastatic helps with browning and rise and non-diastatic just helps with browning 😊 Basically the non-diastatic has been heat treated to inactivate the enzyme 😊
Foodgeek good to know. Not all of my flours are malted. My whole grain flours are not and sometimes I mix them with my bulk malted bread flour, which I buy in 50lbs bags. It helps to do testing with a less expensive flour. 😁
What type of flour were you using in your test? All purpose or Baking flour? Thanks
After receiving a package of Diastatic Barley Malt Powder, I was unsure of how much to use for making bread so, I was especially excited to see the results of your experiment. After observing the bubbles that break the surface of your test samples and seeing the largest bubbles in the 2.5% mixture, I am speculating that, if you rerun the experiment with less water added, your results will show that the higher percentages will produce ever greater increases in height. I am thinking that the bread that I’ve made with regular yeast has contained less liquid and so, my proposed new experiment will be more meaningful to me. I have not made sourdough bread in a long time and so, if you normally use more liquid, your original test was more meaningful to you. I would also like to have seen if a higher percentage of malt would have changed the coloring and flavor of the resulting baked bread. Thank you for sharing your careful documentation with us.
It’s not about level of rise it’s the bubble consistency
I'm confused. First you said the batches would be 250 g each, then you weighed out 100 g each of flour and water for each batch. What am I missing?
50g starter + 100g flour + 100g water = 250g
@@troy5659 I guess I somehow missed that. Thanks.
I believe Le Décret du Pain (1993), the French Bread Law, limits the amount of diastatic malt powder to not more than 0.3% (baker's percentage) of the total flour for the bread. I don't know how that applies here, since we don't know how much flour the bread will eventually contain, not just the levain. Likewise, when should the diastatic malt be added? I think at the time the dough is mixed before it is retarded in the fridge, but there's no law about that. ;)
I have come across assertions/reports that say bread with diastolic malt produces a more digestible bread. Any thoughts about this?
I think a long sourdough fermentation is much more important for digestibility :)
I have read the same.
A strong word to the wise - much less is best when using DM for bread making.
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Sorry but just to confirm it % of diastatic malt per weight of flour, correct? (baker's %) thank you. Any impact on flavor profile after cooking?
Did you end up doing the part 2 of this video? I cannot find it.
Can you combine diastatic and non diastatic powder in the same dough?
Just discovered (through a series of bad experiences and googling) that even a little too much diastatic malt can totally kill the crumb of your bread. That's why they say "max 2%". I don't know what the actual cutoff point is, but it definitely destroyed my bread.
Interesting but not very useful unless the results are baked into loaves. I’ve read that too much powder results in gummy loaves.
Adding too much diastatic powder will help break gluten down more eventually breaking the structure of the dough
Hej Sune, hvad hedder Diastatic malt powder på dansk og kender du nogle danske butikker hvor det kan købes? Tak!
Det sælges som lyst maltmel, men det er ikke alt lyst maltmel som er “diastatic”. Tjek om det har aktive enzymer - Aurions lyse maltmel har ifølge beskrivelsen på deres hjemmeside aktive enzymer, men det har Skærtoft Mølles lyse maltmel vist ikke (eller det fik jeg engang at vide, og det skriver de heller ikke i deres beskrivelse af maltmelet).
What all in 10min!?
It's a timelapse, so the actual time in the timer on screen. About 10 hours worth of real time :)
Would this also work with Malt Extract? This comes in a jar and has the consitency of Marmite (Vegemite). According to the jar the only ingredient is Malt Extract from Barley. As powder is calculated on percentage of the flour, if it can be used instead, what would the Malt Extract be measured against?
It's the same enzymes, but I don't know if malt extract has the same amount of enzymes per gram though :)
You should always measure as a percentage of the flour :)
@@Foodgeek Thanks Sune. I'll give it a go anyway. Also, thanks for a great channel, I've learned a lot since subscribing. Just about to try your Chilli recipe too :)
Actually no .. malt extract is "non-diastatic", because the process of making it (fermented then malted grains, then boiled in water, then reduced to form a syrup or further to create a spreadable paste) kills the enzymes. Although, malt extract is an excellent way of introducing malt flavor into your bread, along with some additional sugar that the yeast will like, and will help caramelize your crust
Thanks but u should have whisked the malt powder into the dry ingredients before adding anything wet for more even distribution
Since it metabolizes over more than 8 hours, I doubt it mattered for such a small amount.
@@timtyndall4025 the smaller the quantity the more important mixing is
@@user-fs2zt4tk6q it was a compound sentence. 🙄 The “small amount” part was relating to the long inoculation period. I’m sure it got consumed completely over 8-9 hours.
Too much diastatic malt makes dough gummy. Only tiny amounts are beneficial. More is counterproductive. I learned from a pro who works at a baking supply to industry.
Reason why is not to make your dough mix sweet by adding sugar or honey
You want to taste only wheat
Sune, I love your channel, because you ask MANY of the same questions I have wondered for years, but never had the motivation to experiment and find the answers. I had just started a fresh batch of sourdough starter, and was wondering if adding diastatic malt would make a difference. Thank you for answering the question and saving me hours of wondering!
Are you familiar with water kefir? It is similar to a "sweet" kombucha, as it is yeast and bacteria that are fed similar to a sourdough, except just sugar and water, which is converted from sucrose to glucose (?), and by using water kefir in my bread dough, the dough DOES rise higher, but is this due to the yeasts in the kefir, or the sugars? I don't know. But if you ever need a question, there you go. :D
Thank you again for all your vids and curiosity!
~Moz
Some observations: 1) the height measurement methodology of the starter is imprecise. 2) Starting height appears to differ in relation to the volumetric amount of diastatic malt added to the respective containers. 3) The “level line” reference at the top of rise is slightly out parallel with the bottoms of containers (and the bottom of the screen frame) roughly about equal to the cumulative total of divergence from left to right (a slight but definitely observable amount).
It does not appear that the methodology produces a quantifiable and accurate measurable difference, ergo, a null and void experiment.
I agree, science is numbers and pictures and videos, not just videos. It is a classic n = 1. Unscientific, anecdotal, unconfirmed by n = 6 or more and other labs. Enjoy your videos but take them with a grain of salt. Provocative, but unconvincing. Still I will try some diastatic malt, "the proof of the pudding is the tasting". Be well my friend.
I just watched dough rise for 10 min...
@@dmitrysharangovich1200 Whoops, still abt 5 min of actually watching dough rise. Quarantine has destroyed the value of time lol