Endurance Road Bikes or Maybe Something Else... 🥵
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- čas přidán 27. 08. 2024
- I feel that endurance road bikes have lost their way. They are too complicated, too compromised and are covering up what they are really designed for.
An endurance bike should give you great confidence even when you are most fatigued. They should be reliable and comfortable as well. Maybe this category of bikes has become too focused on comfort at the expense of other aspects of a ride.
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#enduranceroadbike #bikemechanic #trekdomane
Endurance bikes exist to have youtubers recommend them.
Nailed it.
Actually I like the kind of compromise, being spot on for road and under-biked for gravel 😅. Riding my allroad on Zwift 😂 and my road bike on road (obviously) with 25/28 tubulars and another CX tubular wheelset with 32s on gravel. Cheers guys
Wait, you're a CZcamsr. Sooooo, which one do you recommend? 🤣
like chinese lights ? 😎
Kind of like my 105 spec scott addict se
A good endurance bike is one you can ride all day and enjoy it. I’ve been an endurance rider for 50 years and covered lots of miles. You wouldn’t walk 10 miles in poorly fitting shoes. Same for long rides on a bike that wasn’t formed for you. And the stronger you are, the more fun you will have.
Totally
The problem with flat bars is two fold. 1: The upright position means more watts needed to move forward & 2: the lack of positions to relieve pressure after long hours in the saddle. What I did was add TT bars raised just above the saddle height to allow an oul boy like me to use them for comfort. I've not done a bike fit on the flat bar bike but I have done on my Domane so adapted it as much as possible. TT bars also help with the wind. Love the channel!
A good bike fit and good tires are the best things you can do for rider comfort. Sort the fit before deciding on the bike.
defo!
I had a Giant Defy Advanced, very harsh ride and not a good fit for my 73 yo 110 kg body. Ate rear wheels regularly till I built a wheel on a Koozer R 330 hub, excellent spoke lacing design and very reliable hubs. Sold it for a long wheelbase steel framed light touring bike, with Novatec hubs with quality bearings 24 mm wide DT Al rims DT revolution spokes 24/24 and Conti 500 32/700 tyres. Higher ave speed than the Giant at 1kg heavier.
been riding a cx bike (Cannondale caadx with 34c slick tyres) as my primary road bike for a good few years , traded it in for a carbon racy endurance bike for a while because thats what i thought i wanted/needed for a while , went back to the caadx after realising what i thought i wanted didnt mesh with what i was actually feeling , stiff cx bikes handle and perform great for this regular weekend warrior. keep up the quality content !!
Also CX here mainly for road, and some trails (where my old road bike really doesn't fit), I like how they handle, more lively, but I'm not riding TT style for hours. They might not be for anyone, I heard someone call his Caadx "borderline", he bought it as a road bike without knowing it was a CX...
@pbt2005 your comment nailed ít in my opinion. As you say Some individuals are suited for up and back and some for low and long.
I’ll add the other variable which is flexibility considerations. So now we have all the ingredients for fitting on a bike being a series of compromises that will reveal themselves the longer your ride is on any giving day!!
There are no perfect bike geometries. There are geometries however that accommodate your top criteria at most.
In my case and in order: high stack, absorbing all road chatter, under 18 lbs, reasonably priced by todays scale -$4700 US, and reliable components.
The Defy it is with its geometry and as a package.
I think I mentioned flexibility a lot. Thanks for great comment. You make a great point.
In contrast to gravel bikes I would argue that for road endurance bikes you don't need much of a super perfect handling. For the biggest part we go on roads that were made for cars at 60 to 100kph. So any bike, even MTBs or city bikes, shouldn't have any issue to go there at 20 to 50kph. A degree or cm more or less for headtube/trail I probably wouldn't really notice on those roads. On a single track, I agree, it becomes much more relevant, or on switch backs in the Alps. Like you don't need a Porsche for the handling on normal roads, even an old Rolls Royce will have no problems with handling. It's rather on a race track where the handling of a Porsche will shine. But for long rides you might accept the handling of the Rolls for the overall better comfort. So to me comfort (compliance + stack + reach), lightweight and speed are the keys for endurance bikes ... handling shouldn't be rubbish and city bike or MTB are definitely not ideal here, but some variation in head angle or so doesn't seem overly relevant to me, especially in the rather narrow range between gravel and race bikes. And then bike backing stuff or extra weight for day trips influence then handling even further than just some slight variation in the geometry.
Interesting points. I've had a Defy since 2015. Really like it, and will replace it with another in a couple of years. Also, as you guys said, the geometry of my Merida gravel bike is awesome too.
I’m still on a 2015 Defy and love it. The new one sucks though - they gone to race geometry and that stupid cables through the headset. So sad…
8:15 I had bikes with toe overlap but it was never a problem as it only matters at super slow speeds and tight spaces (like riding in your living room or trying to balance at the traffic light stops :)) And if you aware of it, even slow speeds and turning around aren’t going to be an issue, it’s a reflex like avoiding a pedal stroke while turning.
Spot on! I really enjoy your videos. I bought a Cannondale caadx 58 cm as a winter bike and couldn't believe how comfortable it was. After checking the geometry I realised that it had a shorter reach and and a higher stack compared to my other 58 cm bikes. I'm turning into a bike geometry geek now 😅😂😃
Those are great bikes. No one needs to know it’s for cyclocross.
Comfort is the most important part of performance. Seat tube angle, is the most important dimension for corect fit. Head angle and trail determine the handling. Stack height is changed with stems.
Nothing techy from me but I absolutely LOVE my custom Tifosi built for riding in the Lakes and Dales. Everything works, the gears make sense (just one ring on the front, less to go wrong😊) it fits me and geometry is perfect. The advice on the vid is spot on for enjoyable long rides day after day 🙏👍
Glad you love it 😘
I'd agree with with your final conclusion - that's exactly what I did years ago. Plus, high stack doesn't just benefit those with hip mobility issues. I have relatively very long legs and need a high stack bike to get the bars to any reasonable position: my custom road bike, designed as an "endurance" bike long before the term was created, has a stack of 625mm (which would be XL or larger for most brands) yet a reach of just 380mm (which is S or M for most).
When I was looking for a gravel bike, I was finding too many "Endurance" and "Gravel" bikes were essentially the same geometry as road race bikes but with differences in tyre clearance. The stack, reach and trail vary very little between the models in most brands.
As for the issues with small bike geometry, it's a nightmare. Head angles have to get slackened a lot to accomodate a 700c wheel to avoid hitting the downtube, and reduce chance of toe overlap (which I've never seen as a problem for a road bike anyway). Once upon a time, smaller bikes would have all been spec'd with 650b to maintain handling characteristics and avoid overlap without having to make the big compromises.
Bring back the 650. Kudos to Canyon on that.
I agree 650b would be better for small size road bike but not many brand is producing good 650b slick tires. One I know is Panaracer Gravelking 650b but width starts at 38mm.
How about a race geometry bike with a higher stack for us fairly quick guys getting older and less flexible that just can't get on with the sluggish behaviors of an endurance bike. Seems like everybody I see on the local group rides have their stems pointing toward the moon.
I was riding and racing bikes my whole life but now over 50 I was looking for endurance bike that is only a bit more relaxed and decided to go for BMC Road machine, It’s geometry is very close to cannondale super six evo. Standard frame is lighter than Cannondale synapse high mod. Most endurance bikes are made for people who ride bike on weekends over summer.
Yes your definitely right i purchased a Cube cross pro swapped out the wheels and put conti 5000 32c and it feels the best bike i have owned aluminium frame its perfect for me approaching my 60s does a bit of everything great content.
Thank you.
Great thoughts. I’ve got a size L Giant Defy Advanced with mechanical 105. I’ve done some 200 and 300km Audax rides on it this year. Absolutely love it. It’s guard/rack mounts and tyre clearance are a big bonus too. Not for fast rides with the boys though!
Nice one Anvil. I probably should have mentioned mud guard mounts.
Good stuff, here’s one. I think if you are on terrain that you feel the need for suspension and a dropper post on a gravel bike…. you should have brought the mtb with you instead
Obviously 🙄
4:11 I am sure Trek took the name from the Italian place, or is it Mad One, but Domane is actually mispelled German word domäne, which means domain. Discovered boon means blessing, benefit, favor.
Col de Madone was the hill Lance trained on to test the efficacy of his EPO program. Domane and Emonda are just anagrams of that name.
My System Six is my most comfortable bike. I have a Domane but I use it for training.
A topic I'd like to see you discuss is what should a customer check before accepting a new bike from a LBS? I'll be getting a Gen 4 Domane SL5 in January which is winter here, so will only get to use it on a trainer for at least three and a half months. I'll likely not even know what creaks or other issues which were not right when I initially picked the bike up until spring.
With the supply chain still being messy, I'm fairly sure others will be receiving their new bikes in the off season and if not an experienced check list would be good to know even for a wider audience.
Thanks, love your videos, have several saved in bike topic playlists as they're very informative.
That is an awesome idea!!!
For me more tire width and slacker head angles are more about surface quality. Endurance for me means going all day long, not really riding hardpack or gravel as such, but that's fine if required. Endurance for me means no faff, so no electronic groupos or battery replacement. Then again I have a lot of MTB riding experience and can easily handle something more road oriented off road, not really bothered about 25mm road tires and having non-slack head angle. Put me on a mechanical climbing bike all day, and everywhere, just not an aero bike with electronic group-set
Yeah. This is actually a great point. I guess I am associating our wild countryside with steep and rutted roads that might be more unique than I think.
Have the same experience with Endurance. “Not handling” rough terrain is more down to the rider than the bike. Look at the pro riders at Strada Bianchi. The best race downhill faster on a race bike than most normal riders would do on a mountain bike. Endurance geometry is the most racy of the endurance bikes, it’s not that different than the Ultimate. Other endurance bikes are much more relaxed. Going from Synapse to Endurance was the perfect choice for me.
My Topstone is sooo comfy, it’s my Autumn\Winter bike apart from being a tad heavier, I know I’m going to be good for a 4/5hr ride. 700/32’s for this time of year😊 Keep em coming👍
The alu one is a really good bike for the price. Tough to beat. The carbon one has a complicated BB.
@@Mapdec yeah Ali version, purchased 2019 105 version, though have Hope 20FIVE wheels with Pro4 Hubs and a Ritchey Ali Stem 220 WCS and Butano WCS Bars with Spesh Toupe Expert saddle, so a shadow of its former self. 😊👍
I just put some of the 32mm Panaracer SS Gravelking tires on my Topstone, I love them.
What is now called a 'gravel bike', thirty years ago would have been called 'boring' and sixty years ago would have just been call 'a bike'.
More brands should spec 650b on small frames to maintain geometry and avoid toe overlap. As long as ultra twitchy frames like the Allez Sprint are avoided, the heavier, wider tires and handlebar bags used by endurance riders will slow steering enough on these endurance bikes to feel planted. Gravel geo is good for running over a pothole, but often feels like understeer when fast cornering.
Yep. You got it 🤩
A good analysis. I never got on with my Defy despite doing a lot of km on it and having it fitted. Its been replaced with a Topstone and that's a bike that I'm really enjoying from the get go. Its the obvious choice for Audax rides for all the reasons you mentioned.
Top stone alu are really good. The carbon one is complicated.
Hi Keith, indeed I noticed many Audax riders at my place ride Topstone.
The bike industry seems to get fixated on the latest riding craze. A while ago Sportives grew in popularity so manufacturers started to produce bikes with higher stack and shorter reach and possibly some 'compliance' feature. This then bled into other categories - remember the 1st Cervelo S5 supposedly an aero road race bike but with the really high headtube that meant the pro's needed crazy long angled down stems to get a racing fit. Now with gravel being the latest craze other bikes like the Endurance road bikes feature gravel like clearance and geometry.
Oh. Great point
But shouldn’t the bike manufacturers design bikes that fit the needs of the consumer pool first ?
That includes geometry and riding surface requirements…..and then have a slight variation for what the pros require.
I think that’s the approach Trek took with their H1 and H1.5 geometries, so that we could ride a Domane and so could the pros.
@Mario Fonseca they obviously want to target the biggest market that can afford their bikes. I remember my original Cervelo P2k & P3c's were based on a long low position. Given that aerodynamics in cycling is most governed by rider position this made sense if you wanted that fastest set-up given the knowledge of the time. However because the P3 became the must-have Tri bike, there were a lot of riders that wanted it as they wanted the best but couldn't ride comfortably in a TT position. So there were guys in my club with P3's & huge uncut steertubes with tons of spacers to accommodate their upright positions often higher than an relaxed on the hoods position on a road bike. Really these riders would have been better off doing tri's on a road bike as their positions meant they didn't get a benefit from a full-on TT bike. This happened with aero road bikes the gains in aero performance can be washed away with a more relaxed fit. But some people will want what the Pro's ride regardless of if it is really the right bike for their purpose. If you want to do well in races being able to hold and aerodynamic position will benefit you more than a Naca profile downtube. Therefore it makes sense that race bikes have a race fit while Endurance, All road & Gravel bring about more a relaxed fit that accommodates non racers, but in reality the number of riders that race is a small % of the buyers so race bikes will be governed by what manufacturers think will sell the most units at a set price.
Exactly. Custom bikes are the only aswer. Not only for endurance.
Endurance do their jobs well. They handle well, are comfortable, and are fit for long duration in the saddle.
I am a big fan of round carbon seatpost, with a set back or have the seat post leaning back. It can do as much for ride comfort or more than wide tires. Double chain rings provide more gears and thats a good thing. I can't believe how far some gravel bikes have gone with big chunky tires and still claim they are faster than a CX mountain bike.
Indeed I come to the conclusion that set-back seat post helps with reducing pressure on your palm contact point, and gives a more relax riding position.
I do all my long distance riding on an aero road bike, but when I see people riding a race bike with a stack of spacers and a stem angled up, I can't help but think that they'd be better served by an endurance road bike of some description. Or a better bike fit sometimes, because often doom towers of spacers are accompanied by a saddle hiked way way up.
If you wanna be aero you gotta have the hips for it. Otherwise you’re just an air brake with an inefficient biomechanics.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge we all appreciate your effort in getting this information out 👍
Interesting point regarding the bars. I’m pretty confident the ultimate endurance/gravel bar would be a Jones H-bar with mtb shifters/levers. IMO these offer the best compromise between comfort and control. A mountainbike flatbar gives the most control (elbows up like on a mx bike) but lacks comfort as it’s too wide and puts the wrists and elbows in an unnatural position. A drop bar is very comfy but doesn’t put the rider in an aggressive stance like a flatbar and makes it hard to hold onto it while braking.
It’s a mind bender, but those Jones bars do offer that compromise many folk are seeking.
@@Mapdec I think road cyclists are a bit too conservative to think outside the box… I’ve never understood why people run drop bars despite never using the drops. Might as well do away with them and start with a blank canvas. Pretty sure you’d end up with something along the lines of a Jones bar. By far the most comfy bike I’ve ever ridden is my 70s randonneur with those old fashioned steel bars that sweep backwards a lot. Of all my bikes that would be the one I’d pick if I had to do an all day road ride (despite missing three spokes and having only one working gear🙃).
@@Bonky-wonky Actually I can understand them. For me the vertical hand position is more natural for longer rides as horizontal. I ride my gravel bike mainly on hoods, and found that my friends single speed bike with bullhorn bars is also really comfy, so no surprise I bought horns also for my trekking bike. Several of my colleagues are using vertical mice for computer as they have issues with the carpal tunel.
Hi Paul, great video, I learn something every time I click on one 👍
Maybe do one sometime on the subject of effective top length verses reach and which one should be emphasized the most when purchasing a bike or frame. Keep up the great work!
Thanks for the idea Gregory.
I'm 4'11 or 150 cm every bike I own has toe overlap. I have 7 bikes. For short people it's very hard to find a road bike that fits. I recently got a Pinarello Paris and it fits great. Why is the reach so long on bikes? For short people usually the reach is 20mm longer than it should be
Because 700c wheels. Small bikes should have 650 really, but only a few brands offer this.
The entire industry has lost its identity. Bikes are heavier and slower than ever before. They are basically disposable bikes. Oh yea, and a 4K price tag.
It’s defo changed a lot recently. Bikes are heavier and yet average speeds of races is going up and up. I would probably argue that bikes are probably only slower now on the very steepest of uphill gradients. Had it changed for the better? It’s a good question. The price has become very prohibitive for sure. It’s a real shame that it’s hard to find quality at the enthusiast level.
bike fit/comfort/confidence is very much a personal thing. My LBS used to do demo days, take a bike and go ride it for an hour or two. Great grab an endurance bike I am getting old and less flexible, got returned inside 15 minutes as I could not corner. Next race oriented bike with compliance, thought it was a good idea getting beaten up by rough roads, wrong again, I need to feel where my wheels are. Aero race bike, had great fun throwing it into corners and eating up the miles.
Since then purchased gravel bike, two sizes smaller than manufacturer recommends for my height. But almost identical reach to my road bike, 1 degree slacker head angle, 20mm longer chain stays, make it suitable for what I want it for , ripping up local gravel trails, rather than long days in the saddle.
Sounds perfect Nick
Interesting video but those are really all "mid trail" bikes. A low trail bike is in the 30s (mm). Fork rake reduces trail (and toe overlap) which is why some "randonneuring" frames have a lot of rake. The very curved (steel) forks also add a bit of suspension. But I don't think a few mm here or there will be noticeable especially when you're used to the bike. Best bike for endurance of course is custom steel with rim brakes :)
Thanks Ben. Great comment.
+1 for custom steel and rim brakes! Cable actuated shifters and brakes, no batteries to die part way through a ride, and no fussy hydraulics.
My Medium Planet X RT-58 V2 has 45 Trail, 72 Head, and 558 Stack. Ride on good 25mm tyres, ride is stiff but still comfortable on long rides, country lanes, and trails like Tarka, Drakes, and Granite Way.
If you are fit and flexible most bike will feel comfortable. 😎
I agree, its all marketing bollocks. Ive ridden 200km audaxes on bikes ranging from a Bianchi xlev2 Pantani replica, clearance for 23mm tyres only, at the opposite end of the scale a hardtail 29er with the mtb tyres inflated to 65 psi, and many other bikes in between. What made the rides tolerable to enjoyable was my level of bike specific fitness and contact points being sufficiently used to 8 hours on the bike. Actually the most comfortable bike ive ever ridden was my 2013 Cube Crossrace. Ultegra 10 sp, 46/36 with 12/28 cassette. Audaxes, cross country flat out, alu frame and durable strong carbon forks. Avid shorty 6s. So nice to ride. Gave it to my son during lockdown. Just ride, got it?
Awesome.
Holy can a worms! Got a 2017 defy advanced 2 disc, head tube is a tall brick, had to shorten the stem, great comfort frame, but not really a corner carver(chainstays). Wouldn't be a bad option for someone taller to size down. Also 2018 emonda alr, last of the rim brakes, fun bike. A foot in both camps with fit and adjustability, and with no gimmicks . A plus if your younger or svelte rider
Love a can of worms
It’s not a problem with the bikes, it’s the marketing (surely most of cycling’s problems are this!?)
If you want a bike for ‘endurance’, get a steel touring bike!
Those bikes marketed as endurance are giving race aesthetics to average riders for their Saturday club rides! And that’s no bad thing. It’s just not exactly what it says on the tin.
Sure. Relaxed Race.
When I think endurance bike i think Audax - solid bike with all the fittings; weight doesn’t matter that much, just solid and reliable. Lights mudguards and a rolls saddle.
Great point. Proper endurance!!
I always thought an endurance bike was an audax bike with fewer practical braze ons but a bunch of extra marketing wank? That said, its really nice to hear someone talk about geometry in a little bit of depth
Thank you.
See the geometry of the current Cannondale SuperSix Evo size 54 or smaller. Stack and reach is just a bit more slack than pure race bike like Specialized Tarmac.
But then it has interesting numbers with 71.2 degree HTA and 55mm fork rake that result in 58mm trail and very long front center.
That long front center along with low bottom bracket provide good stability against external force (wind, terrain). And 58mm trail maintain the handling feel (force from the rider controlling the bike). It's an upgrade over traditional race geometry, IMO. It got good stability of endurance bike while still provide fast handling feel.
Cannondale have always done interesting geometry. The Ai is genius. I like the SuperSix EVO gravel edition. Not for gravel, but it would make a very good endurance bike.
Thank you. :)
Have 2007 Synapse. Have found useful on 150km (and shorter 😀) rides.
Recently purchased, as new, 2013 S-Works Crux. No long ride to date. However, have found ride relaxing, confident handling, as fast (perceived, faster wheels?) and overall a delightful experience.
Crux rides of:
Limited road distance,
Several hours of variety of gravel/rock strewn/single track/ sand track/road
Seat of pants.... better for endurance given above caveats.
Crux is fab. I know lots of folk using them as a road bike.
Know & Learn your Body.
Know & Learn your Equipment.
... til then Ride
It's never over > so get started...
Words from a man that been through hell on a bike! 🤘
Excellent video. I really like how you discuss a very technical subject. For long rides I take my Domane and leave the race bike at home. The other day I switched bikes with my buddy. I rode his Checkpint and he rode my Domane, same year size etc. I liked the Checkpoint handling. Thanks
Thank you so much Steve. Great input too. Thanks.
2:30 I am curious why road, endurance bikes still have so slack seat tube angle, it looks painful. my saddle on my bike is so much forward the reach it's aligned with the bb, but different geo, I ride a Geometron G1, but for me this position works for my knees, too much forward or backwards and my knees start to hurt and I fatigue faster, and it just feels wrong.
Keep in mind I don't have any road bike experience.
So if I had a road bike it would have longer reach, steeper head tube.
I use mid foot position, but road bikes have little toe room.
The geometry seems to be optimized for sprinting and being in the drops, and sitting and pedaling is compromised.
but maybe that non existing bike could exist, as there are custom frame builders, including Nicolai. But I am not into road bikes, but I see the benefits and use scenarios. But where I live my G1, is good, but I live in Norway, so an enduro or trail bike would be fitting most places.
70's head tube angle is not that great but not horrible, xc bikes still have that, at least most have something similar, but some are slacker.
But it makes me curious how and slacked head angle, and steep seat tube angle, longer reach, shorter stem would be on an road bike. I see Evil bikes made something like that with Evil Chamois Hanger. To me this seems like the best option geometry wise right now. But it's not cheap. But it was not a surprise to see such bike exists. But this bike is not a pure road bike, nor gravel, nor cyclocross bike. it's everything in one, and it has bottle holder mounts at the fork. so it also combines a gravel back packing bike into the package too.
My idea of an endurance bike is a road bike that has snappy handling but won't lose composure when the road surface gets loose, rough, or wet, and has a cockpit geometry that will fit a reasonably wide range of riders. Oddly enough, this was the goal when the best builders worked in steel, 40-50 years ago. I had a Felt F5 that hit the mark in the ride and handling department. Unfortunately, the cockpit geometry was too long and low for my long-limbed build. My older Madone handles like on rails, but it loses composure when the road gets rough, and H2 was still too tall. I was excited to demo one of the first Domanes, but the long trail and slack head made it feel like pulling a trailer. And sensibly, both Specialized and Trek have since brought their stack measurements down. Of the popular brands I think Giant's Defy and Scott's Addict hit the mark best. No gimmicks, just make the chain stays a little longer and tweak the cockpit.
Snappy = CX...
What bikes do they ride in criteriums?
@DR_1_1 you're making it complicated. A CX bike is for racing on CX courses. And a "criterium bike" is basically a track bike with brakes and a derailleur hanger. When I raced 40-50 years ago, the guys who won the cat 1,2 crits did it on the same bikes they won road races on. There was nothing special about these bikes--moderate angles, moderate offsets, moderate clearances so you can mount fatter tires for a day that would include gravel, stiff enough to get up and hammer but compliant enough to ride for 5-6 hours without feeling hammered. And stable enough so that a patch of sand on a 90 kmh descent won't send you flying over a guard rail.
@@monkmchorning "CX = snappy" is not "complicated"...
I only asked about criterium bikes because another "pro" described CX as "criterium bikes with knobs".
I bought a CX as my main bike, for roads +80% of the time, with some countryside trails, mix of gravel and dirt. It can replace an endurance bike too, as explained in the video.
I like how it rides, very lively which sometimes comes handy on busy roads as well as on trails, I like it better than my road bike, or a gravel!
Best of both worlds if you like that snappiness!
@@DR_1_1 my definition of snappy handling is a little more conventional than yours.
@@monkmchorning English is not my first language, as you may have guessed...
the point is that CX are more agile, more responsive, otoh with my road bike it feels like I need to prepare every move in advance else I would crash.
i noticed some brand turn their endur bike into more racy, like an allround bike compared to previous generations. Maybe to create an obvious gap between endu and grav or something
Yes. Maybe. And then Cannondale go and make a supersix gravel version 🤷♂️
Sitting here watching the Costa Rica vs Germany game and listening to your videos. Keep up the good work. 👍
😂 glad we got your attention for a few mins.
Love my 2022 Giant Defy. I did a 225km ride this summer quite easily (could never do that distance with such ease previously). I may give 300km a go next summer (definitely need better shoes and perhaps a better seat).
What is endurance? I ride Audax, a bit of adventure 'racing', and even a few 24hr TTs. The bike needs to suit you and what you plan to do with it. But I've done 600km Audax on a CAAD12, fine apart from lack of aero bars, and at this time of year it's mostly a gravel bike with 35mm tyres, full guards and a 30:40 bottom gear for Yorkshire hills. No way I want an upright position for endurance, I'm slow enough without sitting up in the wind.
Great comment. Thanks Hector
Great video here, dealing with this kind of thing on a daily I’d agree with most of the points raised, I would say find a bike fitter who knows geometry inside out, have a good bike fit and bring the two together, simple. Oh, generally speaking if you want to ride a race bike keep up with your daily Pilates / yoga session 👍
Get to be more than 45 years. Am 48. For past 3 years I've sworn by my Dolan ADX Ultegra. Rides 200-300km like a charm. I can no longer ride my "proper' specialised.
Btw, what do you think about the new Ridley Grifn (Allroad)? Declared as made in Belgium…we all know, frame is from China OEM (just directly ordered the frame there..) but painted in Belgium = equals by EU law (due to %share of value) Made in Belgium. Nevertheless, looks like a good compromise, depending in wheelset and tires
All Road probably a better name than endurance. The old extortionate paint job tick 😂
@@Mapdec Yeap, we all know and did in business 😂 keep on doing your great stuff! Highly appreciated
I've been riding a Kinesis Tk2 since 2011. It replaced an old 531 Grtaham Weigh frame. Both bikes super comfortable over the long haul. The Kinesis though added a whole lot more. If I want to put the power down it delivers in a sprightly manner. I can comfortably ride it fast or slow. I have owned and own other bikes which are comfortable, but not in a way which suits my ageing physique! An ally/carbon Scott frameset was super efficient but I needed to put in a lot of effort to get the comfort level up. Riding it at a gentle pace made me go slower and slower as every bump and ripple in the road was really felt. I simply no longer had the capacity to ride in that high effort style for too long any more. Its replacement is my Canyon Endura AL 2016. It is actually very comfortable, even when ridden slowly. However it is so much fun to ride fast and hard, I tend to keep it for shorter rides, as again my ageing body can't keep the effort up for so long any more. Hopefully the Tk2 will last a few more years yet, as looking at the way the bike market is going, it is going to be very hard and very expensive to properly replace.
Great comment. it is strange how some bikes come alive when ridden hard, and others just seem to get more sluggish the harder you try. I think is down to flex either in the wheels or frame.
This bike was really easy to assemble czcams.com/users/postUgkxMesz3KOGEmwmvyKQfLfrRSUXLFzfVHZA and required very few adjustments out of the box. The wheels did not require any truing/adjustments. The frame had some small scratches, but nothing major.I did replace the seat though - the seat it came with was very uncomfortable. The tires need to be re-inflated every 4-5 days, but this appears to be quite common for the narrow 700x25 tires.Overall, in my opinion, this bike looks and rides like a much more expensive bike.
I don't ride an endurance bike. I crave quick cobra - like handling, super reliable mechanics, upright position. That's why I like my track bike with 36 spoke cross 4 aluminum rims. The Cinelli track stem is upside down and the bars are drops with 15mm rise in the center. The brake lever is on the right top due to current shoulder injury. A heavy tall rider, the 55cm aluminum frame allows stand over clearance and toe clearance with the cleats all the way back. Easier to mount bike by straddling first due to shoulder. This gives a very harsh ride, and probably quicker handling than a Madone. When I've completed a 100k ride, I'd call that my endurance bike! When you stay with a group, you know you are the strongest rider!
Monster 👹
Interesting video thank you.
Do not forget that after the trip you will have to go home.
Often by public transport: train bus boat...
You will have to disassemble the bike or place it on a bike rack.
You have to foresee it
Good point
Whitton ballot entry in..................now I wait🤞
wait, but train like you have a place. May come round fast. Good luck.
@@Mapdec Cheers. Bike isn't even built yet.....still waiting on frame and wheels to arrive. Everything else is sitting here waiting too. Frames got a 73.5 degree head angle 🤔😕. Ordering all the bits has been guesswork, so I hope it's all going to work. Tick tock.
I´ve just bought a Scott Addict 30 with 105 groupeset Totally in love with the bike. But could benefit from better wheels. But even with the stock wheels i can keep up with group rides.
Just ride what ever you can afford to ride, not as like everybody can afford 3 to 5k plus on a new rig. I'm still riding old school steel rigs with mostly 80's and 90's components, 45 years later and I can still smash this old stuff until it needs to be rebuilt over and over again and again.
I am having a custom frame made, with basically the geometry of a caad13 with a 74° seat angle. On the caad that was always the point that bothered me. I was not able to get in the drops, because my body was not able to bend that much. And I always felt like the distance between the saddle and the handlebars was to long.
I ride my caad9 aluminum race bike 60 - 100 miles regularly and don’t complain about lack of comfort. 28 c tires would be the best way to get comfort on long rides
That Dex, is because you have a strong core, great flexibility and a tough butt... I am guessing. I mean, I don't even know you..
I can see the new gravel race bikes filling this space in the future. Relaxed geometry, wide tyre clearance but still being relatively lightweight with aero gimmicks. Eg cube nuroad c 62 race / Ridley kanzo fast
Think u could be right.
Interesting video, I hope you do a video on geometry, I would be happy to watch it! I’ve just had a new Roadmachine and decided on this bike because I knew after a bike fit that I needed a more relaxed position, so I’m glad for the endurance category, as many race bikes are simply too long / low for me to even consider. The BMC looks to be good but one thing I’m baffled by is the industry still speccing bikes with wide bars and long stems, mine came with a 42cm bar and a 110mm stem and it felt a bit like sitting at a pipe organ, I’m currently in the process of swapping those out!
One thing I found really hard whilst making a purchasing decision was that stack and reach only tell you half the story, these figures gave me no real idea where the contact points would end up, stem length/angle, additional spacer stack, bar reach etc all differ between brands and make choosing a bike quite difficult.
If I ever think of a way to make it interesting I will.
The art of bike fitting is getting very lost in technology
Completely agree. I'm currently kinda in a market for "endurance road" frame and I think I'm just gonna go with CX frame instead, everything just seems to better fit my needs. As I said that, any experience with Handsling, regarding the build quality and reliability? Their frames seems to look pretty good, but I've had basically no luck finding some in depth reviews. I know you've featured one of their bikes on your channel already but I'd love to hear some more on them before I buy one :)
The one we did needed a LOT of work on the disk mounts.
@@Mapdec Thanks a lot for the reply! Not quite one I was looking forward to though :D I don't really know where else to ask so would you mind me asking about some other brands? Namely Origine and OBED, I can't find any unbiased info about these unfortunately.
I have no experience of those to offer I’m afraid.
@@Mapdec Thanks a lot for taking your time to respond anyway! Great channel!
Totally agree that all those bikes fall short of the mark. For long distance, you can't have the bars super high, as these bikes have, or you put too much weight on the saddle.
Also, long trail is awesome, but you need to do it with reduced fork rake, not simply slacking the bike out.
Great comment Galen, thank you.
@@Mapdec I have a custom fork built with 28mm rake, and honestly it's opened my eyes regarding bike design. It's so much of an improvement to the handling that I can't see ever buying a standard fork ever again.
Why you can have super high bars? Isnt that the purpose of endurance and gravel bike? High stack short reach to accommodate their mobility issues yeh? Is there an issue with 40mm spacers underneath the stem?
Custom steel bike are actually now cheaper than most carbon bikes !
Great point Gildas!
100% agree try Fairlight
I agree, most of the bikes, are not comfortable, not only by relaxed geometry, byt also by frame technology, TIME designer and manufactured Alpe d'Huez 21, a mix of woven carbon with basalt fibres. Also ADHX with Dyneema fibres, with no gimmicks just proven technology, exclusive to TIME.
I like the Boone. Rode one 2 years ago. Opted for an endurance bike that has left me wanting. Should have got the Boone or maybe an out and out race bike. Finding a Boone now is difficult
I personally don't mind that the bike industry divided the geometry of road bikes into five or six classes (aero, road race, endurance, gravel, cyclocross...) It's a matter of marketing that we can't influence. What bothers me more is that with complete bikes there are so many and enormous additional costs and work if you want to adapt it to your needs, geometry, wishes and to reduce weight. The integrated cockpit is nice, but the handlebar is usually too wide. To change the handlebar, you have to shorten the hydraulic cables (on the new bike) because they are routed through the handlebar. You get some mid-range heavy whells, a crankset with a gear ratio that doesn't suit you (e.g. Canyon on all Endurance models Ultegra crankset 52/36 or Sram crankset 48/35, which is ridiculous for an endurance bike), a cassette with a gear ratio that you it doesn't fit, the stem is usually too long, the seat doesn't fit you, heavy rotors, not tuneless tires......!
You can easily invest the next 4-5k usd (eur) in a new bike. In the end, it's really almost more worthwhile to buy a bike frame and upgrade it yourself with parts that suit you.
I think you just created the subject of the next vid. I agree with so much of this.
@@Mapdec In fact, this has been my negative experience with all the bikes I've bought in the last three years (Cannondale Supersix EVO, Orbea Orca OMX and Trek Domane SL 6 eTap).
@@Mapdec I just bought a Pearson Forge. They do a bike fit to get the right frame size obviously and then all the parts are custom. So they're buidling my bike with 170mm cranks (when size 56 almost always come with 172.5) and 400mm handlebars (instead of 420mm with a standard 56). Etc etc. They've also taken a slightly different approach to geometry so I can't wait to pick it up and get out on the road. Your views would be welcomed too as your video was really interesting.
Love that your graph adds up to 101% 😉 great talking about this when marketing gets called out.
The 1% know
@@Mapdec PMSL. I thought you were going to say "you give 101% for Endurance riding".
I knew it was the rounding on the graph just thought it was worth a chuckle. 😂
Great vids this btw. Going to miss these when the football has finished. It never hurts to ask questions or opinions, the danger is ignoring them.
@Mapdec Cycle Works. I think we should figure out how to be able to add pictures of our bikes as part of our comments.
😳
Actually would be great if you share your experience with specific custom bikes. I have just finished one build with Tom Sturdy (Hope it wont be considered as and add) and have to say, its just great experience.
We did this a fair bit in the busy summer. There are a few vids for you to enjoy. Working on another 2 right now
Another interesting video, thanks Paul!
You're right about Giant. As a small 165cm rider, their smallest offering was just too long for me; such a shame as it was my first road bike bought from eBay for £300.00 (it was the TCR that combined aluminium and carbon frame tubes).
I then bought a 2017 Synapse that I still have to this day. The 2 changes that have made the biggest difference (apart from a bike fit) is narrower handlebars (down from 42cm to 36cm) and tyres/sealant (Hutchinson Fusion5 TL & milKit sealant) that has meant I now use it everyday as my commuter!
Getting a proper bike fit has allowed me to hunt down a weekend Orbea Orca off of eBay that fitted with just a small stem change and swapping out the ridiculously wide handlebars.
One thing that has eluded me is saddle comfort. @Mapdec that may be a useful subject to cover. How much is saddle comfort a function of the saddle shape, padding, core strength, flexibility etc? I've come across the Infinity saddle that has the middle cut out and I'm about to take a Dremel to an old Selle Italia SLR to see what difference that could make. Turbo training is a bit of a chore at the moment!
Saddle choice vid. 🫣. I’ll try. Thanks Phil
@@Mapdec 🤣🤣🤣 Sorry!
Could cite the Giant defy as the break through bike in terms of global sales and the 'endurance' bike moniker. In the mid 2000s the marketing men came onboard and a road bike evolved into an option, the aero bike then followed with I think the first Venge MK1 being the first main stream aero bike though Cervelo cite the Soloist as the first which Cancellara won Milan San Remo on. The point being is the endurance bike tag allowed the market to open up to middle aged men and later women and despite 2012 being a key year, the road bike boom began in 2008. Commercially these bikes helped the industry get by and as before very few look at bikes in a commercial sense, just the romance and tech and the opinion of what they like or dislike. Mike Ashley once said the bike industry's biggest issue is it is built on benevolence and rightly so. Ultimately It is all about ££££ and the 'endurance' bike is a bit like that line in the usual suspects about tricking the world. In the end comfort can be king but as you know some riders are suited to up and back, some to long and low irrespective of seat tube / head tube angle and other associated tricks. 👍
Great comment. Thank you.
@@Mapdec for reference I now ride the latest Roubaix. I'm 51 now. Good bike. 90% there. Just lacks that 10% an ultra stiff race bike gives you but then when I ride them for more than 40 miles my old bones shake a bit.
Watching this channel really is a breath of fresh air.
Thanks Christopher
Great analysis. Last year I rebuilt my Surly Cross-check for long distance tours and it works really good for that.
However I do feel the higher BB keeps it from feeling as planted as a road or gravel bike-especially on descents.
What do you think?
For sure a higher BB will have an effect. There is always a compromise somewhere.
I have a CX bike as an allrounder (Inflite rival AXS). Use it as a road bike but also cool endurance rides just to hang out. Perfect tool, relax geometry. Yes, not that light, but very comfortable and great on light gravel.
Nice, What CX have you got?
@@Mapdec Inflite CF SL 8 (Rival AXS)
@@Mapdec Running a Duratec Clon SX, superb cross bike, Record/CX 10speed. Rgr
Those inflight has higher standover right? Not ideal for small rider?
@@PhiyackYuh Absolutely, all CX bikes have a higher BB to go over bumps. But it's reasonable. On sizes S or XS even small riders can feel comfortable
What about canyon endurace?
Ah that magic missing 1%, That's what I need to find.
Apple Keynote being helpful not helpful in rounding. I just wondered who would notice first
@@Mapdec What did I win? Something special I hope.....
Very timely topic! I am looking for a new bike and had a bike fit to help identify bikes that would work with my riding and body dimensions. From the fit I learned that I have relatively long legs, less that gymnast level flexibility and need a bike with taller front end. I figured an endurance bike would be the ideal solution. Wrong! I have been scouring Geometry Geeks for production bike that meet the fitters recommendations, most bikes that hit the mark are one or two sized larger than the manufacturer's recommended size for a 5’ 9” rider. The Fairlight Strael in 56 Tall comes close, but still a size up from mfg recommended.
I have been reluctant to go custom fearing that it would sacrifice handling and tested engineering to accommodate my fit needs. The end of your video would suggest that custom is the way to go. Are my concerns unfounded? Custom feels like a leap of faith on an unknown product.
This is the problem. You might want to get a frame only where the fork stearer has not been cut and you can add some height more easily.
You seem to be one of the few roadie's who actually knows anything about bikes beyond your own narrow personal niche.
Thanks. I am a bit of a Jack of all trades, master of none though.
Rabble rabble! But my expensive carbon endurance bike that I paid a lot of money for has me convinced it is a magic carpet and the only way to ride!
Ah. Psychology
Bikes are bikes you determine what you use it for.
So 40 years ago it was racer, audax and touring. Then Mr Burrows (rip) designed the sloping top tube and these old bikes became race, endurance and gravel (brakes aside). Just compare the geometry of an 80's Dawes Galaxy with a modern gravel bike......
The 80s are back. Everywhere you look.
One of the best explanations ever
Ty
Do you guys do bike fits? If not, who’s the best bike fitter in the region?
Yes, tricky question. Depends what you need. Give us a call.
@@Mapdec Awesome, will do. I want to get myself dialled in on a new (endurance 😅) bike, so nothing medical!
Aren’t endurance frames also more compliant? My assumption was the less stiff the comfier the ride. The bigger tyre solution sounds great until you need to keep up on a group ride. My first (and only bike) was a canyon endurace. I chose it because I’ve had a history of back issues. And considering I ride 15+ hours a week I wanted something with a bit of give. I’m thinking of upgrading to a defy though.
Oh no! You said the word. 🫣. Bigger tyres won’t slow you down… to a point, the weight of them might, a bit. Flex will slow you down. It takes effort to flex material. Compliance is a tricky and misleading word. Aside from the occasional old skool carbon frames that were so stiff, you’ll find more useful flex from components these days.
@@Mapdec You think 32mm+ at the correct tyre pressure will be as fast as 28's? Also, my Canyon Endurace has pretty thin chin stays, my assumption was that gives it more flex. I can't say that's what makes it slower off the start but on any group ride, even as the strongest rider I need to put down some power just to keep up. Compared to test riding several other bikes there's a notable difference off the start.
Well… there is a lot of compelling discourse. Here is something to get you started. www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/a39986876/tested-tire-pressure-width/
@@Mapdec 145lb rider; "the fastest set up was a 30mm tire pumped up to 90 front and 95 rear....." And this is where it falls short. @ 50-55psi (correct pressure) for a 145lb rider the tyres are slower than 28's at 70-75psi. Also 30mm is negligible to 28's I have conti 5000's and different batches range from 28mm-31mm. For a notable difference in comfort IMO, I'd guess you'd have to compare 28's to 32mm or greater.
Endurance bikes exist because disc frames are to stiff. I’ll take any rim brake bike from 92 to 2016 they are lighter faster and more comfortable. I ride synapse carbon 2012 at the weekend, commute in the summer on a steel giant peleton and in the winter run a giant tcx on 32mm conti cross kings. I had a disc defy for a while it was the worse bike I ever had the misfortune to own.
I have a Giant Defy Adv Pro 2, supposedly an endurance bike. I bought it based partly on Hambini saying Giant build lgood carbon frames, Cycling Plus recommended it, it seemed to be efficient but with a plush ride, it has disc brakes, carbon everything and set up tubeless all of which I wanted to try. Overall I’m pretty disappointed and wish I hadn’t bought it. I find it harsh, not particularly comfortable and with several horrible design features. Cable routing and stem, headset / head tube design is just an abomination. The tyres and tubeless are just a faff. In terms of comfort, an essential for ‘endurance’, titanium gives a vastly superior ride but heavier and maybe not as ‘efficient’ in converting input power into forward motion. Is there a comfortable and efficient carbon endurance bike if the Defy is so harsh?
Sorry to hear that, but I know what you mean. The giant range is so huge that model to model you can have quite different rides. Things to look at. Time ADHX, Look 765, Cervelo Caledonia, BMC RoadMachine. Personally I would stay away from any gimmic vibration device or damper.
@@Mapdec Thanks for the suggestions. I looked at the BMC Roadmachine a couple of years ago but then read a report saying it had a hard ride feel too. Maybe the latest one is better but I’ve just watched a video of someone (!) having to repair a non-round misaligned BB. Never taken with Look having seen a shattered frame, but again maybe new ones are better. So maybe an ADHX or ADH but I think someone commented they’re not as responsive as a more pure racing style frame, SL7 or that genre. Not sure how easy it is to find a Time dealer.
We deal Look and Time. There are a bunch of vids on the channel for you to enjoy, give us a call when you’re ready.
Giant Contend AR is more endurance than Defy. Defy is TCR for non flexible riders.
TBF I didn’t look at the contend. I just ticked the Endurance box on the filter and got given all the Defy.
@@Mapdec common mistake. Giant bikes are so bland, everybody just goes over them, says "meeh". I blame paint jobs, they are among worst in industry. 😅
@@Mapdec the contend replaced the alloy defy. Shorter chainstays for more snap. Brought out to compete with the Allez from specialized. For Giant a Gerald Ratner moment in binning the aluminium defy. People still ask for it now....
I tend to ride long rides and my giant defy is heaps more comfortable and leaves me refreshed at the end of the ride with little to no compromise not sure what the point of this video was besides hearing you waffle on....
Thanks for watching
bike fits, they're not all equal and there are actually very few shops that actually do it and even fewer sports science facilities. I'm pretty lucky though i only have to be on bike for 5mins to know it doesn't fit as manifest as pain in a number of places very very quickly and as I'm a short guy if i can't stand over it then no (i know its not the important measurement). I digress. I think you'll find that endurance bikes have now moved/evolved into a new segment that many don't actually talk about and that's "all-road" not gravel, there is a difference. Bike's like the very forward-thinking mason definition, rondo, and new Ridley grifn (that blurs the lines a little). If i were selling bikes at a bike shop i'd refer to the so-called endurance bikes as relaxed race. Tire clearance is just a sign of the times and everyone wants fatter rubber and wide rims even on their race bikes. My rims are 35mm wide with an internal of 22.5 that makes any tier come up massive. 28s come up 30mm
Sounds like we are completely aligned.
What is realibility?
If nobody was there to see it be unreliable then was it always reliable?
Any recommendations for an decent endurance bike that uses a round seat post?
Vid you see the look 765 Optimum vid?
Excellent educational clip!! Keep it up! Rgr
Thank you
Interesting video, I've been looking at endurance bikes to replace my 10 year old road bike (I managed to squeeze some 25cm on it) and have considered whether a gravel bike with some more road like tyres would be better, but I live in Denmark so I think the gearing would be all wrong.
Maybe a cross bike?
I don't know anything about cycling in Denmark but most gravel bikes are built around a 68mm BB, so they can all run road drivetrains. How could gearing be wrong?
@@cjohnson3836 I've definitely considered a gravel bike and switching the gears and tyres but it would be nice if I didn't have to go through that fuss.
@@isomochyn1 I'm not sure what you need to switch. I run the same cassette on my different wheels. You don't need to change anything in that regard. Esp if you're running a 2x the gears should be more than enough for both road and gravel.