How John Williams Writes a Sketch | Composer Toolbox: Episode 6
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- čas přidán 5. 09. 2024
- John Williams is known for his very detailed and nearly-orchestrated sketches. But how does he write this much detail in such short amounts of time? Episode 6 of Composer Toolbox takes an in-depth look at some of the techniques and short-hand that Williams uses in his sketches.
I own nothing.
Enjoy!
I've made a post in the community tab of this channel explaining why I released this episode early. Basically, I'm going to re-record and re-edit episodes 2-5 and fix many of the problems that people have brought up: how fast I talk, the lack of score examples, the lack of audio examples, etc. These first episodes were really a test to see what kind of format would work best, and I think the format I found didn't work. In the meantime, I've made this episode public since I don't think it suffers the same problems as the first 5 episodes (although, yeah, it probably could have used more auditory examples). Thank you for your feedback and understanding!
Wow you are dedicated. I think these videos have been fantastic so far.
David, where did you get the information that he uses 8 bar sketches and more recently 16 bar sketches? Im asking because Im trying to find a write up or book, CZcams video or documentary etc where detailed info about is writing style is contained... just trying to learn from the master :)
I have some of his sketches for The Empire Strikes Back where he used 8 lines, and I came across a CZcams video (czcams.com/video/Y2lgzlZH0pg/video.html) that showed him using 16 lines.
Thank you so much for these videos, I think are really important for the community! Just wanna ask if you know where I can find this kind of 8 lines sketch books, wasn’t able to find them in the music shops of my city..
This is what I use: drive.google.com/open?id=1HrvwbQvmjKAH9ozaO4fPFoKoeS7yQ1US
This isn't the official sketch that Williams uses, just what I was able to piece together from blank measures of his sketches. If you want the actual 12x16 sketch, I would recommend contacting Valle Music (I believe the catalog number is 469).
A few things of note.
-The first 2 or 3 Star Wars films were recorded without click tracks. So the only way he could sync was via clock and streamers with the arrow and seconds indications.
-The sketches were taken from someone on the recording team. So the 41 and 44 notes were the take numbers they used for those portions. This also applies to the large sloppy handwritten notes on top. All mixing/booth comments.
Willaim's - when the sad time comes deserves a WORLD funeral - his music has touched and influenced BILLIONS! over many generations.
As someone who's background is largely in musical theatre and not film, I've always found film sketches like this fascinating because it speaks to the vastly different role of the orchestrator in theatre vs. film. Traditionally musical theatre composers only produce a piano/vocal score--they may include notes for instrumentation, but it's largely just a piano score of the music, which an orchestrator then takes and arranges for the given ensemble (in ye olden days it was a 20-to-30-piece orchestra, nowadays it varies constantly, typically based on budget). So it'll vary significantly by composer--Leonard Bernstein had a large hand in orchestrating his own works, and Sondheim is known to create very dense piano scores that the orchestrators adhere pretty closely to. But much of the arrangement itself comes from the orchestrator.
This is of course wildly different from film, where the orchestrator's role is more akin to a copyist's, taking the already-determined arrangements from the sketches and formatting and copying it for the desired ensembles. Obviously still a vital role to the process, but I know when I first heard that Williams used an orchestrator on the Star Wars films, my musical theatre-head was imagining all he wrote was a piano score and that classically "Williams" sound was someone else entirely. A revelation to discover how different the roles actually are.
Even if Williams didn't himself specify a lot of the orchestration, the way he writes doesn't leave much for the orchestrators to imagine anwyways.
You can see the master orchestrator Herbert Spencer talking to the maestro! Two geniuses! 😊
The clef outside the bar is truly masterful.
@8:09 Small remark: this is not a sketch score, it is a condensed score meant for the conductor (in this case that would have been Rózsa himself, I think?), which I assume was prepared from the orchestrated full score rather than Rózsa's own sketch score. I don't think Rózsa's sketches for Ben-Hur have ever surfaced, but those for El Cid have, and they are indeed three to four staff sketches IIRC.
As a complete outsider to composition and theory, I'm amazed at how complex these sketches can be, all the symbols and shorthand, etc. Goldsmith mostly worked with just Arthur Morton and Alexander Courage for his whole career because of how easily they understood what he called his "hieroglyphics"
Those numbers in boxes at the top are take numbers. This sketch was Ken's copy who made editing notes. Along the way it must have been photocopied, or scanned, or both.
Cool video. I really feel sketch on paper or in a DAW is analogous. Whether I am working on paper in the 8 bars or in a DAW, mentally I am composing the same way mentally. Funny how JW draws in the lines between the printed 4 bar lines. Did you know why it is 4 bars a page on the full score? Because orchestrators are paid per page no matter what the tempo is so they devised the "4-bar per page" standard.
If you ever are looking for more of JW sketches PM me, I have a bunch of stuff.
Could I ask you to send them to me? For better or worse I work the old fashioned way, with pencil, ink pen and paper. I don't know how to work with software. It would be extremely helpful for me to look at and learn the John Williams way. Thank you very much.
Hi, may I ask you for the sketches you have?
Excellent work, David and thanks for listening and understanding. You are certainly talented and have many skills to offer.
The pacing of your voice, the scores, which are brilliantly animated, makes much better sense.
This video would be very useful to students studying film scoring.
Bravo!!
When I first found out that JW used an orchestrator, I though everything I knew about him was a lie.... I suddenly assumed by this that none of the choices of instruments heard in the recording was of JW's own volition. Thankfully I was reassured as time went.
I also envy more learned musicians than myself being able to decipher these sketches - I have decent musicianship training and can proudly read sheet music, but these hand notated sketches are borderline illegible to me. But I'm still impressed how much detailed can be expressed so economically.
I really regret we lost Herb Spencer so long ago, seems the language wasn't quite as well carried through with orchestrators who took over his position, but they still do a fine job.
Thanks for this fine explanation!
Orchestrator is really the wrong term they are really copyists in fact since about 2012 JW doesn't use an orchestrator prefering to use 16 line sketch and just hand it to the copyist! JW already choose the instruments but like anything it's good to have a second set of eyes on the music to check it.
I understand perfectly what needs to be done with these sketches if I need to orchestrate John's music. I think it's a matter of habit and attitude, you just have to enjoy reading them and be used to writing music that way. I don't know how to use sheet music software, I try but it doesn't work for me at all. I've been writing music by hand all my life. At some point I get faster than the machine, if only there was someone to transcribe and edit the mistakes later :)
Then you have composers like Goldenthal or Morricone who don't use orchestrators at all.
you are offering a great service to the appreciation of this art form. having worked with many of the composers you cite i'm reminded of many great years in Hollywood film music. bravo.
After watching this and other videos more than once I have to say you have answered so many questions and taught me so much! Thank you, David!!!
Interesting note: this is from a copy of TESB score I purchased on Ebay some years ago. The marker looking stuff at the top of the page is notes from the mix session. I think Jason graves has the originals now - they were on some strange sized
paper.
Thanks for making this all so clear! Film scores don't come with an instruction manual on how to read them and we rarely get this kind of analysis even on the FilmScoreAnalysis channel. And it's interesting that you write music on paper like Williams; maybe you can bring it back into practice when you join the field.
Well done! Very informative. Thank you for sharing!
This is a fascinating video! Thank you!
It should be noted that Kenn Wannberg, Herbert Spencer and William Ross are the two biggest collaborators with John Williams, Alexander Courage and Arthur Morton helped with orchestrating Superman
Not William Ross. They are Herbert Spencer, John Neufeld, Conrad Pope, Eddie Karam, Sandy Courage and All Woodburry... Ross has been appearing lately
@@MrRbjunior83 Bill Ross has been collaborating with Johnny consistently since 2000
Really great and informative video! Thanks!!
Great David. Thank you very much.
Very interesting video! Thank you for sharing
Fascinating!
Thank you for this video, very useful and interesting! All the best!
I actually sketch in finale. I'm not a piano player and having playback while recognizing instrumentation issues.
I am super fast on Finale with a normal keyboard, just kind of learned out of necessity
I'd say the numbers in boxes are probably rehearsal marks for the recording session, but again, I too could be wrong.
Could youu tell me where you got the scans of Williams' original sketch scans? Thanks and great video.
May I ask how you came across the sketches of the film scorers? Thank you for all of your great and inspiring videos!
hi david great videos I have a very good pdf with all John Williams themes on it and where they are used I can send to you ??
Whatever orchestrators get paid, it is not enough!
this sketching is usual and nothing only JW does. I sketch out the same way. my number of lines depent mostly on how detailed you wanna become and depending on the orchestration.
Could you please analyze the main theme of Batman: Arkham City?
You gotta love Beethoven’s sketch!
I think where your talking about adding clarinets and you say he wrote "a col and violins," it's this symbol for "with": w/
Why would he not use the normal score order? Which composer did so?
Where may we find the images of the sketches shown in this video? I can only find very low resolution images. Thank you for sharing!
I notice he always dont use any specific key signature in notation. What are your opinions? I suppose he avoids misunderstanding for musicians.
I'm wondering if the solid line that separates the 8 staves in two is meant for the use of percussion, to separate strings from winds, or in case the composer wants to use the sketch as a 4 line sketch. Great video!
I think different composers use the middle line for different things. John Williams's percussion parts aren't super extravagant, so I do think he uses it for percussion occasionally. Other composers I've seen use it for marking clicks, bars, timings, etc.
Hey David, just wondering, where do you get the 8 stave score sketching sheets from? Where ever you get yours from you please send the link to me as I’ve looked everywhere and I cannot seem to find it. Thanks in advanced:)
Hi David thank you for the beautiful lesson can you provide me with the 8 line staves pdf so that I can print it. Thanks
Hey, Michael! This isn't the official manuscript paper that Williams used, but it's one I was able to piece together myself (I believe it'll print on a standard 8.5x11 size paper): drive.google.com/open?id=1HrvwbQvmjKAH9ozaO4fPFoKoeS7yQ1US
@@DavidMcCaulley Thank you David
4:41 I read "less percussion" and "no divisi"
Where can i buy the 8 Line Sketch Score?
Great video!! What size paper are you using for your sketches? Got the pdf you provided!
I just use it on 8.5x11 paper, but Williams’s sketch is on 12x16
Why not subtitles?
4:45 Williams like Goldsmith conducts often from sketches not full score. But those markings are pencil markings when he was conducting. Just like dynamic markings are subject to change. A lot of things are cued in his scores so he can put them on on or off. It's pretty much all in the sketch though. See here: czcams.com/video/wLuC2VpmyWc/video.html&start_radio=1
Woah...that makes a ton of sense. Thanks for the tidbit!
@@DavidMcCaulley I would love to see Jerry Goldsmith Sketches also but they are pretty rare! I believe they were maybe 10+ lines
I've got a couple sketches that I might analyze in the future. From what I can tell, his sketch score size seemed to vary from film to film; Planet of the Apes has both 8 and 12 line scores.
I think that's also because most conductors would probably not be able to read Jerry Goldsmith's handwriting, usually only Arthur Morton and Alexander Courage could decipher Jerry's handwriting or hieroglyphics as Courage put it. John Williams handwriting looks generally legible if you understand shorthand.
@@iceomistar4302 It's pretty legible but the orchestrator can check for wrong notes etc. All the same stuff Fl, ob, hp, str, tbn, tba etc.
Where did you find the scans of his work?
The old maestros are genius. They write everything. Mozart don't need an orchestrator!
I think JW could have done it but didn't have enough time to compose and orchestrate. Also Mozart might not be the best example because the size of orchestra at that time was smaller and less complex. But true for later composers after Berlioz, or even after Wagner. Like Ravel and Stravinsky... Their orchestrations are just incredible.
Or so we think. But there were orchestrators. Certainly in the 19th century.
Is there anyway I could obtain the sketch format paper you use???
This is what I use: drive.google.com/open?id=1HrvwbQvmjKAH9ozaO4fPFoKoeS7yQ1US
This isn't the official sketch that Williams uses, just what I was able to piece together from blank measures of his sketches. If you want the actual 12x16 sketch, I would recommend contacting Valle Music (I believe the catalog number is 469).
The Snow Battle sketch really says 2/2 like that? As a sheet music noob but writing enthusiast, this is ridiculous 😅
Those are just measure numbers. They're 3 measures apart. Seems unconventional but it may help to have those markings during recordings.
DARTH VADAR
Wow i thought John Williams also orchestrated his scores by himself..........
I saw in an interview that he used but becauseof so many commitments, he doesn’t anymore. Mind you i saw him correct the orchestra on some notes that the orchestrator wrote .
Did you not watch the video? At least 90% of the orchestrational detail is all there…
I would never think that Ben-Hur theme sketch is sooo .... how to say it... empty on paper...
It looks like a fairly standard piano reduction score, which were very common in the classical snd romantic era of composers (so people at home with a piano could play orchestral music or accompany a soloist on the piano)
0:23
AI: I'm about to end this [orchestrator's] whole career!
Seriously though, orchestration from a sketch is definitely an AI thing.
JakeTheGearHeart Agreed to some extent, but like many things AI right now a lot would be lost - you’d get perfectly usable orchestrations but making the little unconventional or subtle decisions based on story elements would have to be another pass by a human. But it seems like AI is headed in that direction - some bulk work done by machine and then curation and modification by people. Otherwise you get pretty uninspired stuff. I know you’re kind of joking but thought it was an interesting question.
Wholly crap to be an orchestrator in the 50-60's was probably the most challenging stuff ever. Not only you need to be a master at orchestration but also a master of decipher the bad handwritting of composers. I am not saying that JW wrote things right I am saying look at this.
Williams’ handwriting is not bad at all… it’s actually pretty clear and neat.
Look at a Beethoven autograph score. That is truly illegible. It looks like a Jackson Pollock painting. The copyists in those days were true heroes.
I still have to do it today :) It's a matter of habit, at some point it becomes second nature to you :)
@@MrRbjunior83 I moved to Staffpad. And save time 😉
The narrow burn socioeconomically bump because epoxy ectrodactyly rinse onto a somber car. third, important period
God these are so messy. It's amazing how anyone could decipher any intelligible information from these lol.
Williams’ handwriting is not bad at all… it’s actually pretty clear and neat.
Look at a Beethoven autograph score. That is truly illegible. It looks like a Jackson Pollock painting. The copyists in those days were true heroes.