Calvinists said, "Hey Satan! You're basically out of a job since God has already decided who will go with you! There is no need for you to do anything. Go ahead and go on vacation until the day of judgment!" Lol!😅 Edit: If Satan tries to argue with them, they will simply say, "You don't understand Calvinism"
I mean that's kinda accurate lol. I'm a Calvinist and when describing the gospel I always make the qualification of Jesus "He suffered the wrath that all who believe would have had" and it's kinda hard to explain right off the bat but if I'm being consistent I need to say that. Most of the time people don't push back on that when talking about the gospel.
@@N8R_QuizzieWouldn't that seem to imply God has a dualistic nature? If God defines His primary trait as love and defines love in His own book (patient, kind, does not envy, does not boast, holds no record of wrongs, etc) then how do we square that against the trait of unending and unquenchable rage? That seems to be a glaring contradiction. Of course we could argue that some humans are just that evil and depraved but then we lose the premise that no man is more deserving of Heaven than another (lest any man should boast).
Great point! And also, “For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.” ~1 Timothy 4:10
@@fernandomarcandali6488 he could not sufficiently provide an answer to your question because what they believe is false. There’s not gonna be a scriptural answer for falsehood.
Fernando. You, like others, who worship their imaginary carnal autonomous free will they think they have, have absolutely no understanding of 1 John 2:2. But, that's decreed you don't understand it. Making a "choice" IS not faith. You have NO autonomous free will.
Atonement is limited. You thinking you chose God out of some imaginary autonomous free will you think you have is evidence you think it's for everyone. Faith in God is NOT a choice an unsaved man is capable of making.
@@ManassehJones Calvinism is borderline heretical. If you follow the reformed theology rabbit trail: God is responsible for saving man and is irresistible. Man cannot resist God's grace and is chosen by God. God is sovereign and nothing happens unless God ordains it so. You sin because God ordained it so. No accountability to worry about here. God ordained the fall of man! It couldn't happen unless God decreed it so! Therefore God is to blame for all evil. Just look at that trail right there. Its absolutely ridiculous and I can't believe that people fall for the lies of Calvinism.
@@JesCastell 2 Peter 3:9 Isn’t about salvation and what did you happen to skip verses in the same passage or you putting your feelings over scripture ? Let’s look 👀 2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
@@JesCastell us-ward points to specific audience . It Doesn’t say by someone’s choice or God is giving a chance to save everyone. This is where the problem lies , you believe we are saved when one is repenting and that is far from the truth . Christ did the saving at the cross . Christ ACCOMPLISHED SALVATION AT THE CROSS , it is by the gospel effectual call , all that are summoned, his church which Christ purchased his people by his blood and justified and saved us by his blood from the wrath of God through him Romans 5:9 Acts 20:28 Ephesians 5:25 Revelation 5:9 John 11:51-52
That’s exactly what the Calvinist doctrine says: that God chooses based simply on His “kindness and grace.” Calvinism is just an excuse for sin and an excuse to feel “better” than someone else. It’s clearly false and illogical. That’s why so many Calvinists can’t come to agreement on the very major points they all claim to believe
@@naddyleeLol, that's bullcrap. It's no such excuse. That's just low hanging fruit from the worst calvinist you've met. It's not a considered response to thorough-going reformed soteriology.
@@goosieschmoo8239 what in the world are you talking about Calvinism is man centered man created philosophy based Fairness is Gods own testimony about himself You would call him a liar
@@appointedaday dude, the very concepts of predestination and election (amongst other things) are not man-created. They're in the bible. God doesn't operate on man's sense of fairness. Also, if things were "fair" everyone would be in hell. You want mercy. Also, calvinism (a term not coined by Calvin himself) merely goes over things that are already spoken about in the bible. It makes people uncomfortable because it goes against talking points that have been parroted in mainstream squishy evangelical circles (ex: goes against the lie that man is the source of our salvation, that you can lose your salvation, that man is somehow not inherently evil, and other lies...)
My story… I grew up a pastors kid, I prayed some “sinners prayer” at 7 that did nothing. Lived for me for 35 years. Sex, pharmaceutical drugs, alcohol, parties. I Grew to be agnostic, filled with hate, anger and lust which slowly accreted over years- decades. I LIVED and LOVED “sin”. All i had was Just passive conscience but no pressing desire to care. Up until May 2022 i was a sexual addict deep in Porn addiction on the verge of cheating on my wife. I was talking to hookers/ old girl friends. I hated my wife, my marriage, i was verbally cruel to her and my kids. Classic hater of a “God who creates hell” kinda person and mentality. In fact that was my chief gripe. “What kind of God does this and that…..” “No good God would ever send good people to a hell” I was blind and in my blindness i only knew God was real. But that “Jesus” part was a hard sell. I became very evidence driven. Needed proof. Ironic given i was raised a PK. My Dad didn’t “fail”. But do realize our example to the lost isn’t what saves. Jesus has said multiple times - No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. - I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you.- The Father gives those who are saved to the Son. I know this may be an alien concept for many, but I lived a life dead in sin and I was unable to choose God. I was aware but I didn’t want him. There was too much excitement in the sin i enjoyed. So when God gives to his son those his son saves, those he gives he draws and those he draws NEVER resist the draw. They can’t. The draw can be a moment or a period of time. For me it was a period of time. Approximately 120 days and it was gradual and building up to a crescendo. I even once asked for forgiveness before I was saved. I said “Lord I believe but you’re going to have to save me with my sin. I love doing what I do and you’re just going to have to save me while I do it. I cannot stop. ” I acknowledged the truth but wanted my sin as well. This was about a month and a half before I was saved and It did nothing. We always think that the human mind has the capacity to resist the reveal of who God is. God draws and then with a free will choice we choose?? This is where it boils down to the definition of the draw. If no one can come to Christ unless his father draws them and threw that draw they are guaranteed a “rising up” on the “last day” (our physical death), then that guarantee also guarantees the choosing of Christ. So the draw is a particular strategic supernatural powerful moment rather than a passive understanding of knowledge. Intellect only gets us so far as realizing there’s a creator. The draw of God is you standing in a field watching a nuclear bomb go off a mile away. You can’t run, you can’t hide, you can only beg for forgiveness because in that moment you realize the depth and scope and damage of your sin. That bombs heat wave is your sin coming your way and the only thing that can save you is God. There is no choice in the moment because choice requires intellect and the draw of God is him sticking his hand in your heart and ripping out that Stone heart. You are his before you ever thought you chose him. What you perceived as a human choice was just our limited human way of understanding what had happened. No one turned away the extra parachute from a friend free falling with you just to fall to their death. There is no choice when you were predestined before the world began. …even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will… There’s no scriptural evidence of the dead having a free will choice. Our freedom is being free from the bonds of sin which introduces a limited free will under the grace of God. -Hebrews 12:5-8 Right after my wife’s mother died My Dad sent me a book about Near Death Experiences. (NDEs) (Imagine Heaven: by John Burke) (After Death- movie adaptation) Contrary to the seemingly biased position of the book title, these stories were very compelling. Compelling enough that everyone saw the same man of light which resembled what everyone seems to say was the Christ of the Bible. I read the Gospels several times. Research older writings predating Christ. Through months of trying to prove Christianity wrong I Realized from this emotionally crippling moment the severity of my situation, the steep hole i was in, the damage I caused…God was real, that Jesus part was real, and at that moment I had to make a choice. The more real he was proven, the worst I felt. The bomb heatwave was getting closer and the clarity of the mushroom cloud was getting clearer. But is it still really a choice if death is the alternative with an eternity in hell? Not even the dead in sin would choose such a thing. That’s why it’s not really a choice. I was a liar, adulterer, deceiver full of pride, hate and anger. I treated my family like crap and was verbally abusive to my wife and children. On my face i weeped and cried to God in belief. I cried out in a pool of tears in my home office after everyone had gone to sleep… “PLEASE GOD SAVE ME IF IM EVEN WORTH SAVING….PLEEEEEASE. I am wrong. I don’t deserve you, but i believe.” sobbing in a river of tears, shirt drenched, i layed there repeating that over and over begging him for almost an hour. I honestly didn’t recite anything. I was desperate for change. At a point of failure scared out of my mind id gone “too far”, i thought i was unredeemable, i needed help but had nothing to offer. I didn’t want this darkness anymore. This pit in my mind and heart was too much. Choosing Jesus wasn’t a passive moment but something i felt no choice in. I knew he was THE truth before i believed. In my blindness I rejected him for my lifestyle and the things that I wanted for me. But at this moment..It was him or die. I was at a point willing to give up all sin. to give everything up if he would just save me. I just didn’t know how to stop it all. I arrived at his feet with nothing but sin and emotional blood on my hands. My unforgivable offenses. I got very little sleep that night…After begging him to save me, Id NEVER felt forgiveness like this. Life after that night has been like I’m a kid in a small wagon and God is pulling this red wagon through a beautiful forest. Id get distracted, get out of the wagon then be confronted by a bear and quickly get back in the wagon. The more sin i refused or fled from,…the safer i felt. Sexual sin was unique though. Overcoming this has been much different than anger or lying. It was less “overcoming” and more running from and preventing. Through pain and suffering, today I’m porn free (which did take some serious Mathew 5:29 effort and gradual time) , day one i dropped all contacts with those i was about to cheat with. I blocked them all. I confessed it all to my wife who forgave me. Since May 22 its been exponential growth. A craving for scripture and a challenge to keep proper understanding clear in my mind. I went from dispensational theology to a clearer exegetical understanding of the word of God in a matter of two years. I went From basic milk theology to being called a Calvinist simply for believing the Bible. This all happened 2 years ago and has never let up in desire to read, pray and seek more. There are layers to Christ not even the “church” talks about that is deep, connected and is continually revealing. Home healing is on going and as much as I wish that would be Overnight, that is a God timing. It’s infuriating that we’re not brought into the loop of his thinking but that’s how it has to be otherwise faith would not be faith.
Christ's atonement is absolute for those who will be saved. His atonement is not a mere possibility for the chance that God could fail. God's not going "gee, I sure hope I'm able to save someone". Also, did Christ atone for the sins of the house of Eli? 1 Samuel 3:14 "Therefore I swear to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli's house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever.” Christ did not atone for the sins of all.
@@goosieschmoo8239 where does the Bible say what you’re saying? It doesn’t. It says Christ died for the world so that WHOEVER believes in Him will have eternal life. That is a condition, meaning that eternal life is available only to those who believe. Saying that Jesus died for everyone doesn’t mean I’m saying that his atonement applies to everyone.
@@austinp1998 whoever believes will be saved. And those who believe are ordained by God from before the foundation of the world. 1 Ephesians 4 "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him." God also makes it very clear that you can't even come to Christ unless the Father first draws us and those drawn to His Son will be saved: John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent medraws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." God decides who will be saved and it's entirely up to His mercy and pleasure. Anything other than that is man thinking they're owed salvation from God.
@@johnsixfourteefour629 I love John 6:44. It's shows that we can't come to Christ unless the Father first draws us and those whom which the Father draws WILL be raised up at the last day.
@@goosieschmoo8239 You line of thinking assumes that faith is from man. If faith is from God, then your argument falls apart. Additionally, it would seem to imply that the atonement does not need to be appropriated by faith.
T total depravity is as bad because both make God into a Liar everytime he called people to repentance and they did not repent, It makes it out as if he is secretly wanting them to perish as he is openly telling them he has mercy for them
I agree. The thing THIS GUY is missing is that limited atonement states that Jesus ONLY died and suffered enough to atone for ONLY enough people who will believe in Him. This is not the case, though, because Jesus says that "whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life." There is a choice here. This also creates a problem with the "Unconditional Election" doctrine as God will not force someone into heaven or hell against their will. The Bible is clear that we have a choice and that we must have faith in Christ in order to be saved. God is sovereign, but we are given free will (even though God knows the outcome, He does not force or create the outcome). Nothing about that is at odds with scripture... In fact it is the most compatible view. All 5 points are flawed in some way.
@@prvtcaboose Justification is the result of "his blood" (cf. Rom. 5:9). If Jesus died for every single individual human being, then they'd all be Justified. Thus, the heresy of Universalism.
@@ryangallmeier6647yes, we are justified by His blood. And if you look at the verse before that. It says that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. And then after that verse it says that we were still enemies of God when Jesus came and died. You seemed to either knowingly or unknowingly (likely unknowingly) misrepresented what I said. I never claimed to believe or hold to a universalist doctrine. That is, as you put it, heresy through and through. I never claimed that. What I said is that Christ died for all, but unlike Calvinists, I believe that we have a choice to choose Jesus or reject His gift. If, for example, I got everyone in the world a bar of soap as a gift (I know it's a lame gift but go with it 😂). So I offer it to everyone. If someone rejects the gift, I am not going to force them to take it, but it also does not mean that I never offered it to them. The gift is still there, they just need to accept it. If they reject it, they don't get the soap, but it still doesn't change the fact that I got it for them. My gift was not limited in the sense that that person didn't get one... It was offered, they just didn't take it. In the same way, Christ died with the capacity to accept all, but not all will accept Him as Lord, and therefore, not all will be saved. That is my stance, and that is not universalism. I hope this clears things up, and I may not change your mind (I accept that notion), but I just ask that you realize that there is not a heresy in what I said. Peace and God be with you!
If the Atonement is unable to actually save anyone on its own then it is limited in power, if it is actually able to save someone on its own but not all go to heaven then it is limited in its scope. No matter how you look at it the atonement is limited.
@@daddada2984 Evil only exists because God ordained it. If God didn't ordain evil, then God doesn't control evil, So therefore God is not omnipotent, which means that God isn't God. God ordained evil rather than not so He could gain more glory, God is glorified more through the existence of sin and the destruction of it than if sin would've never existed, that's just a basic overview of it. Read "Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God" by John Calvin so you won't say anything else as stupid as this.
I think the term throws people off. Because they apply their own definition based on what they think it means. I'm a calvinist and before I was one that term weirded me out. I liked the term particular redemption better. But now that I understand I still wouldn't use the term when trying to convince an arminian of the doctrines of grace because I think it can be a stumbling block for them. I would rather talk through John 6, Romans 8, and Ephesians 1 and bring up those terms later when they are convinced by scripture. However when I'm talking amongst my own circle we all know what those terms mean so it's fine. I hope that made sense.
Ironically, the root of his argument is the Protestant view of Atonement, (Penal Substitutionary Atonement). If he took the Orthodox view of the Atonement his argument would be completely toothless.
@@josephbrandenburg4373 that 5 point is all nothing but problems, its just another gospel that go against the teaching of the apostles, everything is totally wrong
Free will is about election though not the extent of the atonement. Keith's argument that no one would be lost if Christ died for everyone essentially says that the atonement saves apart from faith.
@@MatthewHarris47 that is the point of what I said it’s a different God opposes the scripture Anyone who claims to be a three or four point Calvinist doesn’t understand Calvinism, because each point depends on each other It all together not biblical
Absolute facts. The very first point - Total Depravity - is false and makes EVERY SINGLE point false. Sad that people have this belief in Calvinism and believe God would just condemn people to Hell without choice
This current age of social media is catering to this false understanding of the Bible big time! People use to rely on the Word of God and their local churches. Now we have the very prince of the power of the air taking full advantage of men's desire to relish in the idea that they know more than all of those who studied to show themselves approved unto God and rightly divided the word of truth. The last time that Calvinism reached such heights was when certain men brought the church into a militant church state and severely persecuted and silenced those who refused to be a part of the reforming of the harlot. These dissenters were separate of her altogether and this didn't sit well with the strong arm of these Catholic offspring. Just observe the way that many of them speak of us. Some of them would have no issue following in "their father's" footsteps and having us silenced as well it seems.
1 Corinthians 2:14 KJVS But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
@@ManassehJones I’m Lazarus in the grave waiting to hear Jesus call my name, until then you simply cast your pearls before swine because until God effectually and irresistibly graces me with the gift of faith, all I hear is clanging cymbals and sounding gongs when you present this information
@@lolersauresrex8837 BRILLIANT!!! Why do these calvinist try to teach the gospel when their doctrine teaches they play no part in who God elects? The atonement is limited and no man can influence another mans predetermined fate. It's like they think man has a freewill, lol. Guess they forgot their own doctrine.
A song said that the wrath of God was satisfied. But that's a song, not the bible. The people who go to hell will definitely experience wrath of God. His wrath is only satisfied for the believers who continue to believe till the end and don't fall away or depart purposely from the faith. Those two things can be done. We must guard our gift and not give up. Why give up if he told us that if we endure till the end we'll be saved? That's a guarantee that we'll be saved if we just don't stop believing and Continue following Jesus and being more confirmed to his likeness daily until our end of life, or until he comes back.
I am a 0 point Calvinist. I was heading down the road to believing in Calvinism and found that it gave me absolutely no assurance of my salvation, no hope, and constant inward introspection. Jesus died for all men, John 3:16. God did not choose which individuals would be saved but already knew beforehand who would be saved. Man can choose to be saved but in their natural state, they do not want to turn to Christ. That’s why the Holy Spirit must convict sinners. Believers do not persevere in the faith themselves. It is God through the power of the Holy Spirit who preserves believers for all time. I will never accept Calvinism. It is another false doctrine of men. We need to take off the rose colored glasses and see the Bible as it really is and not look to man’s opinions.
AMEN... An honest Calvinist sleeps with one eye open. "Evanescent Grace" hangs over their head like the Sword of Damocles. If no one can profess Christ apart from God's decree... neither can any one renounce their profession apart from God's decree. According to Calvin, whatever a man believes about God is just a manifestation of God's decree. Many Calvinist leaders have left faith in recent years, most now denying Christ.... If Calvinism is true this is only by God's decree. And their entire Christian experience was just a mirage because God never loved them in the first place and they just didn't know it. Consequently, if God does this so 'some' ... no one can ever know if he's doing it to them now. And he cannot be trusted to love any specific individual. It isn't true, Calvinism is a lie. Satan always brings God's character into question.
Amen. Not only the introspection, but the anxiety and worries that come when you have children too. What if one of my children is predestined to go to hell? Etc. I just cannot believe a loving God would do that.
So a zero point Calvinist in the sense you believe none of the points of Calvinism or you don't want to call yourself a Calvinist? So what about the "P" in TULIP? You don't believe the sheep or the saints will Persevere to the end?
There is no such thing as “limited atonement”. Scripture says exactly, that Jesus came and died for every man and that God does not harden the hearts of men or keep them from following Christ, that man hardens his own heart against Christ and Christ gives him free will to do so and allows it. We are not slaves. Calvinism is not Christianity. It goes against scripture.
Did Christ atone for the sins of the house of Eli? 1 Samuel 3:14 "Therefore I swear to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli's house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever.” Christ did not atone for the sins of all.
@@victorcritelli5790Augustine and Calvin didn't come up with limited atonement by the way, they never taught it. It was added on later. That's a part of the reason why some Calvinists don't believe it, or believe that it goes against scripture.
@@BrownGuyGaming91 Calvin did for sure, In fact he even if said if one believed and fell away its because God gave them false faith to condemn them all the more and no one believed if God did not give them the ability and the irresistible grace By default it was limited attornment if nothng else Augustin just gave the gnostic foundations for Calvinism and many other things that were building blocks for not just Calvin but Luther and the catholic church as well
The reason I find that many Christians don't like the Calvinist doctrine has little to do with a Biblical reason for disagreeing with it, but rather because it just doesn't feel right. Those of us who are Calvinists leave our feelings at the door and submit wholly to scripture - even if we may not personally like the ramifications of it.
@@Manofwar7 :: John 3:16 is an excellent verse supporting Calvinism. Thanks for bringing that up! " . . . THAT ALL WHO BELIEVE IN HIM will have everlasting life." There's the elect for you! Next!
@@marconi3142 LOL God really does NOT love the world in any meaningful sense. Since he "Predestined" some to eternal hell after what scripture refers to a "vapor" of a lifetime. Here for a vapor then hell for eternity! Yea thats the Calvinist God of Love. NOT! He judges and sends to hell when he did not "elect" them to believe in the first place! A man has 10 children and 3 he pulls out of the fire the other 7 he essentially says you were born to burn! The 3 then say he is just because they were not of the seven. I remember listening to John Piper say he did not know if his son(s) was elect or not (born for hell) So God commands us to love more than he does. Move along with that unbiblical garbage. Judging men and sending them to hell when they had no choice!!! Double predestination is Calvinism NOT the gospel. Take care sir. The God I know really LOVES THE WORLD and in a meaningful sense John 3:16 .
@@N8R_Quizzie it’s just a fact you see it all the time they speak at a bold side to their mouth. Hey, I believe in free will let me talk for 45 minutes and then round you back to some slick way of saying you don’t have free desires of your desires control you will so you don’t have free will but yet you have free will So many arguments just like that twisting of scripture At first, it was hard to see, because I don’t always speak contradictions in the same sermon in fact, most of the times, separated by a little bit, but no preach Jesus died for all people and there’s a call to repentence for everyone And then preach another time or teach in the small groups rather, the Jesus only died for the elect They live in contradidiction, and they’re not even embarrassed
???? where have you ever been taught such nonsense?? Hell lake of fire this is how death is described, eternal life is knowing God that is how life is described Biblically speaking
@@appointedaday I am sorry that you have been taught incorrectly about death and hell. The lake of fire, as described in Revelation 20, is the destination of all who are not found in the Lamb's book of life as well as death and hell itself. The Lake of Fire and hell are not the same. The lake of fire is also known as the second death. The second death is the opposite of eternal life. The second death is destruction as nothing can exist outside of God. I do not expect you to just believe me but I do suggest you read Revelation 20 and make sure you are not just believing something you have been taught but relying upon the words in the actual bible. As to where I learned it... I was taught by men what you said my whole life. I learned the truth by actually reading the bible and believing it. Hope that helps. I do not say that to offend you but it my honest answer.
It took me a while, but I finally came around to limited atonement a few days ago, so this video affirming what I've come to believe with such perfect timing almost seems like a sign from The Lord saying, "Yep, you've got it, kid."
The Choose Your Adventure picture Bible with no Hell or Old Testament or judgement talk would be a #1 best seller. Especially if you didn’t even have to read it, if someone could just save you some of your super important time and summarize the whole thing in 90 seconds … you know, so you could decide if you agreed with God first, before deciding on your own to let yourself be saved, but capturing the moment perfectly so you could show exactly what you did on social media most people who haven’t studied quantum mechanics don’t have an opinion on it, let alone the confidence to stand boldly by their own ignorance. But it seems just about anybody these days is ready to get on a soapbox and lecture me on theology and doctrine (which most never read, and few understand), even the heathen. People who’ve never read the Bible. Church is full of them too… I never set out to follow a certain doctrine”. I set out to know God through His word, not the words of others. I left behind the ones that weren’t preaching what I was reading from the source material. I got deep enough into the word and a love for Gods truth (you know, from actually reading it, over and over and over again…) that I eventually realized I was one of those, “fundamentalists” “puritans” aka a “Calvinist”. I mean I prefer “true believer child of God” personally 😊. But that’s risky by association -because I can at least trust that I’ll never find “Calvinist” or the 5 Point Tulip tattooed on some rapper or celebrity. People keep looking for the God that reflects their ideal image of Man. It’s sad, and they don’t even see it, and get angry when you try to help them see it. Which reinforces Calvinist doctrine 😂
really enjoy your channel. Thanks for what you do. The personas crack me up. (born Mennonite, then Southern Baptist, then Methodist, then Quaker, then Presbyterian, then/now/forever “Christian” …until I meet the authors 🙏 “reformed Calvinist”
So we are to believe Jesus died for everyone? That Jesus satisfied God’s justice for all? How, then, can anyone be found guilty and condemned if Jesus was the propitiation for all? If Jesus died for everyone and satisfied God’s wraith against all, how can God find fault with anyone? That’s double jeopardy, which would make God unjust. This also undermines God’s wisdom by suggesting his plan for salvation wasn’t good enough, his love not saving enough. Its like purchasing ice cream from a vendor, and walking away without the ice cream. Foolish. If God planned for all to be saved, and thus died for everyone, this suggests his blood and sacrifice were insufficient to save all he died for. That his blood was wasted on those who rejected this atonement. “No”they will say, “God gives us the option of receiving his saving grace. By our own free will.” So basically saying God’s love only gets us so far? That it then befalls us to do the leg work and receive salvation? Foolish. Salvation belongs to The Lord, not us. To suggest we achieved this victory, even a small slice of It, is false. All things belong to God, all glory belong to God, not us.
Yes Christ only paid the price for those who repent. But that still doesn't take away our free will And does not mean god determines our will for us. He simply knows what will happen in the future that's it
True, but we don't know who will be changed to believe and who will not. That is one of the reasons for evangelism for a "Calvinist". Also, we believe Armenians or non-Calvinists are still Christian, but iron sharpens iron and we should help build each other up in knowledge of truth.
This conflates the universal extent of the atonement with the limited application of the atonement. Just as the serpent in the wilderness was lifted for the whole nation, only healing was applied to those who looked to the provision in faith. So too, Christ was lifted up for the sins of the whole world but healing/salvation is only applied to those who look to him in faith. As John said, he is “The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.”
@Soteriology101, I hope you can get this guy on your show. It would be enjoyable to listen to him defend his Calvinism against someone other than himself.
I think you misunderstand when someone says Jesus dies for all. It’s not that someone believes that since Jesus went to the cross that all people are automatically saved, it’s that all have the choice to be saved or not. Now, since Christ went to the cross we as humans now have to respond to that. Either to choose damnation or salvation, and that salvation is not of us but of God but the price has been paid, the gift is given should we choose to accept it.
Limited atonement means His was only intended for a group of people. People who don't agree with limited atonement means to say that the Gospel is available to all people in a provisional manner, yet many will reject it. It was available to them though. Unconditional election is a separate issue, meaning, those who are elect, can not reject the Gospel. That's different from the availability of the atonement.
No it is not, And the early calvinist would not have had an issue with it either, but the newer ones like to disguise their more unbiblical pieces of doctrine in this kind of smoke and mirror tactics
Calvinism is the only cult that exhibits pride when they reduce/limit Jesus’ atonement for sin. Scripture is clear; we are saved from sin through faith in Christ. This is the only way we become part of the body of Christ, which is seen as blameless and holy to God.
@@joshuahawley2073 For me, I consciously chose to trust in Jesus as savior. It was one specific day and time. That faith comes from us, and it's through our faith that we are saved.
If one makes a distinction between salvation being available for someone and having been applied to someone, Unlimited Atonement is feasible. A 4-point Calvinist could say something like, "Through the death of Christ, salvation is made available to everyone, and through God's Irresistible Grace it applied to the elect." This helps explain passages like 1 John 2:2.
Atonement is unlimited from our perspective, judgement has not taken place. The investigative judgement however as the Adventists call it is already under way in each of our lives.
Yet God is love and Jesus says He forgives all sins apart from blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (which means to deny His truth as it is revealed to you), so the atonement must be unconditional. Election must be determined by our willingness to love Him which demonstrates that we are not totally depraved.
ok what in the world are you saying? are you saying hell is not real? are you saying its not important? are you saying we shouldn't speak about it? that is should not be a motivation? your not making sense none of these things would be biblical
@@appointedaday Hell is absolutely real, that’s why I said it is a place. But Christ dying for all men isn’t because of hell, it’s because he loved us. As Paul says in Gal 2:20-21 “the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me” Limited atonement doesn’t fit with Romans 5- v12 says- By one man (Adam) sin entered the world and death by sin so that death passed upon ALL men for ALL sinned. V19 says- For just as through the disobedience of the one man (Adam) the many (ALL as per verse 12) were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many (ALL) will be made righteous. This clearly teaches that through Adam (v12) ALL men were made sinners yes? So then in v19 what does it mean that through Christ “many” (ALL same word as in Adam all made sinners) will be made righteous? We know clearly that all men will not be saved (I do not believe in universalism) but surely Romans 5 teaches that the sufficiency of Christ’s death upon the cross is such that he died for ALL men, not just a limited few?
@@Bigdavemc79 you’re not explaining yourself You’re talking about limited atonement Which has nothing to do with anything we’re discussing here Yes, he loves us. Yes, he gave himself for us because he loves us. But why ? Why would it cost him so much F it had nothing to do with hell, condemnation or judgment Why would it then be necessary? No because I love my son what if I had to walk in traffic one day what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? He died to save us from hell, death judgment, Satan All of that Because death is the wages of sin And you completely missed putting Romans for no reason there’s nothing to do with talking about here
@@appointedaday OK, thanks for replying anyway. Obviously Christ died so as to make a way back to God for sinners and to remove the penalty of sin from those who trust in the finished work of the cross by faith, I wasn’t disputing that. And never would. Crossed wires. You are obviously way more advanced than me on every level and I bow to your superior knowledge of all things to do with the Bible.
Even the reformers believe in a general atonement for all mankind, however they affirm that the benefits of Christ atonement was applied to those who believe.
The only path to salvation is clearly written. There is no way to the father except though the son. Any other doctrine is false teaching , any instructions given that are not from scripture is false. It says over and over again Christ is the only way to receive everlasting life. Turn away from sin and repent. Believe, confess , be baptized, and repent. We all have the choice to accept or reject. There is no place in scripture that says only certain people can receive salvation.
I have seen thousands die. NO ONE CARES. There is no fear of God, and I can count on TWO HANDS the number who have said they're actively trusting the blood of Jesus to be saved.
I wholeheartedly agree. However, 4 Point Calvinism a.k.a Amyraldianism or sublapsarian Calvinism is a tenable position. They just order the decrees differently. By tenable I mean as a system. Exegetically, I think it falls on its face and as you said I don't know how anyone could affirm PSA as a 4 Pointer but nonetheless I can respect 4 point Calvies like Millard Erickson.
Wrong again!! Your misunderstanding what atonment does! Nobody is saved because of the atonment. The atonment doesn't save anyone! Christ died for the sins of the world so that all may be saved through (faith) (belief) its by grace you have been saved (atonment) how? Through FAITH!!
I have been convicted of my sins. If I was a Calvanist, I could just turn my nose up at everyone. However, Jesus said to go out and preach the good news in the great commission. The Evangelical Church is turning people off. Calvin didn't save me, Wesley didn't save me, a reformed church didn't save me; but the blood of Jesus saved me.
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." (John 8:24, NASB) Where do you get that doctrine?
@michaelprodzinski3351 a person goes to the lake of fire because they did not believe. They don't go because of their sins. Their sins were all paid on the cross but they wouldn't believe and be born again. You need a new nature, being born again of the Spirit of God. Your sins are a symptom of the old nature, that's why ye must be born again.
@@robcrobert amen but to say someone will not go to hell because of their sin is completely denying the message of the Bible. If you do not believe you will spend an eternity in hell never paying for even one of your sins. That is what that verse says. Do you deny what Jesus himself teaches? They will die in their sins. And therefore go to hell. That’s why the atonement is limited because not everyone is going to Heaven and as Jesus says not everyone’s sin is paid for. To deny that is to deny a major doctrine in the Bible.
@michaelprodzinski3351 Jesus paid for everyman sins. Limited atonement is heresy. (Hebrews 2:9 KJB) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. An unbeliever will suffer eternity in the lake of fire not for their sins but because they were not born again.
@@robcrobert where in the Bible are you getting that someone will not go to hell for their sin? Brother or sister I am quite baffled. The Bible is very clear you do not die for your nature but because of your sin. God is just and convicts people of sin. 16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." (Genesis 2:16-17, NASB) For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. (James 2:10, NASB) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23, NASB) Sin=death which is the reason people go to hell. If no sin exists, death has no power any longer. You seem to misunderstand a great deal of scripture and yet accuse me of heresy. Read scripture, study to show yourself approved, and then come back to debate.
Yeah except total depravity is one of the most biblical doctrines in TULIP and the P comes nearly word for word from 1 John 2:19 and if you don't believe in U you believe that something else is above God and if you don't believe in I you believe that God can fail.
@@jokaiitsfire im sorry but you need to establish free will as an actual doctrine in scripture. For example Augustine didn't even do that in his teaching of free will. Augustine did show scripture is clear man has a will, calvanist do not deny that, but he failed to show it can override God's will. It is clear the will of man in his natural state is a slave to sin, that it hates God and it can not do a thing to please Him. Jesus made it clear unless you are born of water and the Spirit you can not see the kingdom of God. Scripture is clear The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil. The mind of man plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps. Proverbs 16:4, 9 NASB1995. God knows the end from the beginning not because He is responding to it but because He made it and all that He wills will come to pass. Look at the last few chapters of Job, can you give console to God? Look at Ezikel 36:22-37:14 who is the one who is doing everything and what compeles Him to move? The only verses I can think of anyone will try to cite is the one in Isaiah where his prophecy "failed" and Joshua as for me and my household we will follow the LORD but the prophecy didn't fail in Isaiah. It's the same exact thing that happened with Jonah God said destruction is coming and that was the thing that made them repent which Jonah literally said he knew would happen which is why he didn't want to go.... look Calvanism doesn't teach we are just a bunch of robots forced to sin cause God just made us that way. What it does teach is God has a will and God has the ability to use our fallen nature our sin to accomplish His will sometime (when I say sometimes He doesn't just use our rebellion sometimes He just acts). Yet the only way anyone is saved is by any other means then God replacing your heart of stone with a heart of flesh and by giving you His Spirit. If you want an example of God using sin for His own good besides the cross Isaiah 10:15, God allow being one who saves you not because of your will but His good pleasure Romans 9. Calvinism inst meant to limit who is saved, it tries to show how much He loves you individually, He saw your sin and goes I will pay for you specifically not generally.
I've always wondered what about the idea of the sin which condemns is rejection of Christ? Therefore all sins are forgiven all people except the unpardonable sin of rejecting Christ
Justified by His Blood (Rom. 5:9). Universal Atonement advocates MUST espouse Universal Salvation as its logical concomitant. Of course, no one ever accused synergists of being consistent in their views.
This was a jumbled mess… not believing in the limited atonement doesn’t mean that you believe everyone is saved and not going to hell. It means that everyone needs a savior and has free will to choose. The idea that there is a limited elect that Christ died for goes against the majority of the New Testament.
This is completely backwards People go to hell not because their sins weren’t atoned for, but because they were and they rejected the gift Calvinism is a heresy that destroys the nature of man, the nature of God, and the understanding of our relationship with God and each other
People don’t go to hell because their sins haven’t been atoned for but because they’re not born again, not converted. The concept of an unconverted person in heaven makes no sense. It’s not a transaction question (has this been paid for?) but a reality question - what fellowship does righteousness have with unrighteousness? Who can dwell with the everlasting burnings? Only the righteous. Do we wish to spend eternity in the presence of God? We need Christ to do so - we need to be born again, to believe in Christ.
This is typical calvinist double-speak. (he said) "Those that don't believe in Christ do go to Hell, they go to Hell to pay for their sins because their sins have not been atoned for." (he also says) "If anyone goes to Hell, they're going there because their sins have not been atoned for."
People need to turn and repent and trust in Jesus and they can be saved. He payed the price for all but if someone rejects the gospel and the perfect sacrifice of King Jesus , they will go to hell because they don’t acknowledge Him and what He did. But anyone can be saved if they want to. They need to repent !
Nobody chooses to believe. You either do or don't. Nobody chooses to be ticklish. They either are or aren't. Something either is funny or not. I cannot choose to believe in Jesus. The gospel fits in the heart of the people who have the gospel shaped hole in their hearts. Not everyone has it. Those are the non believers. They didn't choose to not believe, the same way that we didn't choose TO believe. God creates us all and whether we believe or not , is up to him, not us. We say we have free will only because we believe we have free will. It seems like we do, but we really don't. I can't help but believe that Jesus died and rose again. Hearing the gospel made me believe. But some hear the gospel and don't believe. Faith comes by hearing, only for the people who God elects. We are chosen by him. We love him because he first loved us. We chose him because he chose us. Everyone in existence is called, but few are chosen. Please let me know if you believe that I'm wrong on any of these things. The bible backs everything I've said here.
While the atonement, by nature of Christ's position as Messiah and King, by default extends to all humanity, there is one condemnation. Man is sent to hell on the basis of whether or not he receives the atonement. The atonement is universal in its extent, but limited in application to those who believe. It is available for all, but it's benefits are granted only to those who believe. It is a gift that has been provided and that must be received. Its source is the riches of God's grace, and God gives according to the riches of his grace. There is no limit to the riches of God's grace. If Atonement is truly limited to a few in its extent, then God only has so much grace to go around and is himself, limited.
Christ’s death does not atone for the sin of final unbelief at a minimum. And if Christ’s death was for the whole world and is effective for the sin of the whole world, why does ANYONE go to hell? Why not just be a universalist? And since I don’t think that many of those who would disagree are universalists, let’s discuss this. 😊
Not just that, but their other problem is with the doctrine of Original Sin and what Scripture says about it. But Limited Atonement is only scary if you are premil dispy. -If you are postmil -believe the promise to Abraham is literal in its numbers -and believe the "narrow way" is not literally saying only a small % of humanity gets to heaven Then you would realize over 200+ sextillion souls will be saved by Christ in his limited atonement over thousands of years, and as we move further into hte future, most humans will actually be saved. Premil dispy is probably the most pessimistic view of God's grace, and I could understand why Limited Atonement would be off putting for them.
Election seems to be the most misunderstood doctrine of the Bible. But it’s pretty simple really. When you compare scripture that talks about election with other scripture, it’s clear that it can’t mean that only some people are able to be saved and others aren’t. ALL have had their sin paid for and ALL have the opportunity to choose salvation and be placed in Christ.
I think Christians should just preach and let God do the drawing of people to Himself. Let us stay away from doing God's which involves choosing those who by His infinite wisdom He Saves..We complicate issues that needs no complications.
Atonement is for everyone you only have to believe and repent and your sins will be forgiven. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2Pe 3:9 [KJV]
The reason people go to hell is because they reject Christ , there is an open invitation to all who want to believe in their heart , confess with their mouth , be baptized in the water , and repent from their sins , to turn away from sin and follow Gods instructions. Salvation is though Grace “Christ” and obedience “following Gods Law”.
Arminian Gospel: Believe and you will be saved Calvinist Gospel: Believe and you will be saved. We can disagree on wether the five points are biblical, but dont tell me its a different Gospel, or i will know that you are using a straw man either out of anger or pride or fear.
The only way I can see 4 points being right (which I don't) is if Christ is the one who punishes the damned with His wrath to "undo" the atonement that He did on the cross for all unbelievers. I think John 3:17 refutes this idea.
Well, you’d first have to believe Christ died for everyone to be in that predicament in the first place. There is no unconditional atonement. Anyone who suggest otherwise doesn’t read scripture, nor understands that which Jesus did on the cross. If Christ satisfied the justice of God for everyone, therefore EVERYONE is justified, how can God find fault in anyone? How can anyone be guilty? How can Jesus say on that day, away from me I never knew you.. if he died for everyone?
@@N8R_Quizzie I didn’t see where you said 5 points. my response wasn’t geared against you, I’m sorry that’s how you received it. I was just showing the flaws of anti-tulip thinking in general. Reading my response over, I see how it looks like I’m singling you out you for something you didn’t say lol, sorry. Just trying to bring awareness to the delusional misinterpretation of Arminianism.
@@mattbean9756 I also responded not so nicely and I apologize for that. My boss was confusing me in a negative way just before reading your comment so that attitude spilled out a bit when I replied. I agree with your conclusions! Thanks and have a blessed day
5 Point Calivinists can't effectively account for the latter part of 2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
@@robertguidry2168 Yeah, I understand the argument. It's the old Calvinist canard that God limits the atonement in Calvinism, while people limit the atonement in Arminianism. Therefore, universal atonement = universalism. The trouble is, any argument that contains premises like these commits the fallacy of equivocation. The Calvinist limitation of the atonement is only those elected are saved - God limited the extent of the atonement. But the Arminian does not limit the extent - if there is a limitation (incorrect word) it is in the intent of the atonement. Salvation is available to all, yet rejected by some. it is the extent of the atonement that the Calvinist limits. That is what we should be talking about. Truthfully, I do not think people limit anything - but that is a conversation for another day.
Under Calvinism... the odds aren't good for most the people you meet. I wonder how many stop to think about that when they look at all their children. When do you teach little Johnny that God may not 'really' love most of his friends..... and maybe not even him?? ...Real witnessing scenario; A Calvinist witnesses to man in apt. hallway who prays to be saved.(The Calvinists thinks he got ‘lucky’ and stumbled onto an 'elect' person) The new convert is excited about Jesus and says "lets hurry and go in and share the Gospel with my family". The Calvinist, being an honest person, reluctantly agrees and says "Yes, I guess we should go find out if God loves your wife and kids too!"🤦🏻♂
Applying the word “limited” to anything pertaining to God is a bad idea. The sacrifice and resurrection of Christ was sufficient to atone for the sins of man in their entirety. If I prepare a feast large enough to feed 100 people, but 90 walk by and don’t partake of the meal, the food was not limited in it’s ability to feed the 100, even though it only fed the 10.
The argument in this short is honestly one of the worst that I’ve heard in defense of the “L”. 5-pointer: “The fact that some people go to hell + the deductions of my fallen human reason = the 5 points are true.” 1John2:2: “The authority of divine revelation + a God who actually knows how to convey what he means using words = the 5-pointers are confused.”
If your a 1 point Calvanist you are a 5 point Calvanist they all intertwine. Jesus died that all might be saved. He agreed from the beginning to be a propotiation for our sins but it is our free will to trust solely on His finished work or not. Blood alone for salvation. The predestination of Calvanism is not the predestination of the bible. The Jesus of the bible died for everybody. 🙏
“My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father-Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” 1 John 2:1-2 NIV Bible says He did not only atone for our sins but for the whole world. I would like if you could explain this for me.
And there's the presupposition, strawmanning, and false dichotomy. I.e. "you don't believe in limited atonement, therefore you believe ____" when actually no, we don't believe that
Calvinist preaching the gospel to his neighbor:
“I have good news! There’s a decent chance that Jesus died for your sins!”
Calvinists said, "Hey Satan! You're basically out of a job since God has already decided who will go with you! There is no need for you to do anything. Go ahead and go on vacation until the day of judgment!"
Lol!😅
Edit: If Satan tries to argue with them, they will simply say, "You don't understand Calvinism"
I mean that's kinda accurate lol. I'm a Calvinist and when describing the gospel I always make the qualification of Jesus "He suffered the wrath that all who believe would have had" and it's kinda hard to explain right off the bat but if I'm being consistent I need to say that. Most of the time people don't push back on that when talking about the gospel.
Ongg 💀
😂😂😂
@@N8R_QuizzieWouldn't that seem to imply God has a dualistic nature? If God defines His primary trait as love and defines love in His own book (patient, kind, does not envy, does not boast, holds no record of wrongs, etc) then how do we square that against the trait of unending and unquenchable rage? That seems to be a glaring contradiction. Of course we could argue that some humans are just that evil and depraved but then we lose the premise that no man is more deserving of Heaven than another (lest any man should boast).
What about 1 John 2:2 ?
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Great point! And also,
“For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.”
~1 Timothy 4:10
@@littlefishbigmountain so manny other texts but, when you have a closed system nothing is sufficient to change your mind.
@@fernandomarcandali6488 he could not sufficiently provide an answer to your question because what they believe is false. There’s not gonna be a scriptural answer for falsehood.
Fernando. You, like others, who worship their imaginary carnal autonomous free will they think they have, have absolutely no understanding of 1 John 2:2. But, that's decreed you don't understand it. Making a "choice" IS not faith. You have NO autonomous free will.
@@ManassehJones Sorry, i dont' speak your language.
Atonement isn't limited, God died for every man. Whats limited is people believing in Christ.
Atonement is limited. You thinking you chose God out of some imaginary autonomous free will you think you have is evidence you think it's for everyone. Faith in God is NOT a choice an unsaved man is capable of making.
@@ManassehJones Calvinism is borderline heretical.
If you follow the reformed theology rabbit trail:
God is responsible for saving man and is irresistible. Man cannot resist God's grace and is chosen by God.
God is sovereign and nothing happens unless God ordains it so.
You sin because God ordained it so. No accountability to worry about here.
God ordained the fall of man! It couldn't happen unless God decreed it so! Therefore God is to blame for all evil.
Just look at that trail right there. Its absolutely ridiculous and I can't believe that people fall for the lies of Calvinism.
@@ManassehJones What about the verse 2 Peter 3:9
@@JesCastell 2 Peter 3:9 Isn’t about salvation and what did you happen to skip verses in the same passage or you putting your feelings over scripture ? Let’s look 👀
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
@@JesCastell us-ward points to specific audience .
It Doesn’t say by someone’s choice or God is giving a chance to save everyone. This is where the problem lies , you believe we are saved when one is repenting and that is far from the truth . Christ did the saving at the cross . Christ ACCOMPLISHED SALVATION AT THE CROSS , it is by the gospel effectual call , all that are summoned, his church which Christ purchased his people by his blood and justified and saved us by his blood from the wrath of God through him
Romans 5:9
Acts 20:28
Ephesians 5:25
Revelation 5:9
John 11:51-52
Almost every argument i have had regarding limited atonement has revealed that the actual issue is election
Yup. People seem to think that unconditional election means arbitrary election.
@@Razaiel then my question to them would be, can an omniscient God do anything arbitrary?
@@AndrewHenderson23 From our perspective, sure. But, everything that God does is for His own glory.
That’s exactly what the Calvinist doctrine says: that God chooses based simply on His “kindness and grace.” Calvinism is just an excuse for sin and an excuse to feel “better” than someone else. It’s clearly false and illogical. That’s why so many Calvinists can’t come to agreement on the very major points they all claim to believe
@@naddyleeLol, that's bullcrap. It's no such excuse. That's just low hanging fruit from the worst calvinist you've met. It's not a considered response to thorough-going reformed soteriology.
A Tulip is a beautiful flower but a very dangerous doctrine...
like a poisonous counterfeit
It's only viewed dangerous to those who value their pride and the man-centered doctrine of fairness over what the boble teaches.
@@goosieschmoo8239 what in the world are you talking about
Calvinism is man centered man created philosophy based
Fairness is Gods own testimony about himself
You would call him a liar
@@appointedaday dude, the very concepts of predestination and election (amongst other things) are not man-created. They're in the bible.
God doesn't operate on man's sense of fairness. Also, if things were "fair" everyone would be in hell. You want mercy.
Also, calvinism (a term not coined by Calvin himself) merely goes over things that are already spoken about in the bible. It makes people uncomfortable because it goes against talking points that have been parroted in mainstream squishy evangelical circles (ex: goes against the lie that man is the source of our salvation, that you can lose your salvation, that man is somehow not inherently evil, and other lies...)
@@goosieschmoo8239 Ezekiel 18 to be spoken directly to Calvin himself
My story…
I grew up a pastors kid, I prayed some “sinners prayer” at 7 that did nothing. Lived for me for 35 years. Sex, pharmaceutical drugs, alcohol, parties. I Grew to be agnostic, filled with hate, anger and lust which slowly accreted over years- decades. I LIVED and LOVED “sin”.
All i had was Just passive conscience but no pressing desire to care. Up until May 2022 i was a sexual addict deep in Porn addiction on the verge of cheating on my wife. I was talking to hookers/ old girl friends. I hated my wife, my marriage, i was verbally cruel to her and my kids. Classic hater of a “God who creates hell” kinda person and mentality. In fact that was my chief gripe.
“What kind of God does this and that…..”
“No good God would ever send good people to a hell”
I was blind and in my blindness i only knew God was real. But that “Jesus” part was a hard sell. I became very evidence driven. Needed proof.
Ironic given i was raised a PK. My Dad didn’t “fail”. But do realize our example to the lost isn’t what saves. Jesus has said multiple times
- No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
- I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you.-
The Father gives those who are saved to the Son. I know this may be an alien concept for many, but I lived a life dead in sin and I was unable to choose God. I was aware but I didn’t want him. There was too much excitement in the sin i enjoyed. So when God gives to his son those his son saves, those he gives he draws and those he draws NEVER resist the draw. They can’t. The draw can be a moment or a period of time. For me it was a period of time. Approximately 120 days and it was gradual and building up to a crescendo. I even once asked for forgiveness before I was saved. I said “Lord I believe but you’re going to have to save me with my sin. I love doing what I do and you’re just going to have to save me while I do it. I cannot stop. ” I acknowledged the truth but wanted my sin as well. This was about a month and a half before I was saved and It did nothing.
We always think that the human mind has the capacity to resist the reveal of who God is. God draws and then with a free will choice we choose?? This is where it boils down to the definition of the draw. If no one can come to Christ unless his father draws them and threw that draw they are guaranteed a “rising up” on the “last day” (our physical death), then that guarantee also guarantees the choosing of Christ.
So the draw is a particular strategic supernatural powerful moment rather than a passive understanding of knowledge. Intellect only gets us so far as realizing there’s a creator. The draw of God is you standing in a field watching a nuclear bomb go off a mile away. You can’t run, you can’t hide, you can only beg for forgiveness because in that moment you realize the depth and scope and damage of your sin. That bombs heat wave is your sin coming your way and the only thing that can save you is God.
There is no choice in the moment because choice requires intellect and the draw of God is him sticking his hand in your heart and ripping out that Stone heart. You are his before you ever thought you chose him. What you perceived as a human choice was just our limited human way of understanding what had happened. No one turned away the extra parachute from a friend free falling with you just to fall to their death. There is no choice when you were predestined before the world began.
…even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will…
There’s no scriptural evidence of the dead having a free will choice. Our freedom is being free from the bonds of sin which introduces a limited free will under the grace of God. -Hebrews 12:5-8
Right after my wife’s mother died My Dad sent me a book about Near Death Experiences. (NDEs)
(Imagine Heaven: by John Burke)
(After Death- movie adaptation)
Contrary to the seemingly biased position of the book title, these stories were very compelling. Compelling enough that everyone saw the same man of light which resembled what everyone seems to say was the Christ of the Bible. I read the Gospels several times. Research older writings predating Christ. Through months of trying to prove Christianity wrong I Realized from this emotionally crippling moment the severity of my situation, the steep hole i was in, the damage I caused…God was real, that Jesus part was real, and at that moment I had to make a choice. The more real he was proven, the worst I felt. The bomb heatwave was getting closer and the clarity of the mushroom cloud was getting clearer.
But is it still really a choice if death is the alternative with an eternity in hell? Not even the dead in sin would choose such a thing. That’s why it’s not really a choice.
I was a liar, adulterer, deceiver full of pride, hate and anger. I treated my family like crap and was verbally abusive to my wife and children. On my face i weeped and cried to God in belief. I cried out in a pool of tears in my home office after everyone had gone to sleep…
“PLEASE GOD SAVE ME IF IM EVEN WORTH SAVING….PLEEEEEASE. I am wrong. I don’t deserve you, but i believe.”
sobbing in a river of tears, shirt drenched, i layed there repeating that over and over begging him for almost an hour.
I honestly didn’t recite anything. I was desperate for change. At a point of failure scared out of my mind id gone “too far”, i thought i was unredeemable, i needed help but had nothing to offer.
I didn’t want this darkness anymore. This pit in my mind and heart was too much. Choosing Jesus wasn’t a passive moment but something i felt no choice in. I knew he was THE truth before i believed. In my blindness I rejected him for my lifestyle and the things that I wanted for me. But at this moment..It was him or die. I was at a point willing to give up all sin. to give everything up if he would just save me. I just didn’t know how to stop it all. I arrived at his feet with nothing but sin and emotional blood on my hands. My unforgivable offenses.
I got very little sleep that night…After begging him to save me, Id NEVER felt forgiveness like this. Life after that night has been like I’m a kid in a small wagon and God is pulling this red wagon through a beautiful forest. Id get distracted, get out of the wagon then be confronted by a bear and quickly get back in the wagon.
The more sin i refused or fled from,…the safer i felt. Sexual sin was unique though. Overcoming this has been much different than anger or lying. It was less “overcoming” and more running from and preventing.
Through pain and suffering, today I’m porn free (which did take some serious Mathew 5:29 effort and gradual time) , day one i dropped all contacts with those i was about to cheat with. I blocked them all. I confessed it all to my wife who forgave me. Since May 22 its been exponential growth. A craving for scripture and a challenge to keep proper understanding clear in my mind. I went from dispensational theology to a clearer exegetical understanding of the word of God in a matter of two years. I went From basic milk theology to being called a Calvinist simply for believing the Bible.
This all happened 2 years ago and has never let up in desire to read, pray and seek more. There are layers to Christ not even the “church” talks about that is deep, connected and is continually revealing.
Home healing is on going and as much as I wish that would be Overnight, that is a God timing. It’s infuriating that we’re not brought into the loop of his thinking but that’s how it has to be otherwise faith would not be faith.
Praying for you brother ❤
Atonement may not apply to unbelievers, but it’s certainly available to them.
Christ's atonement is absolute for those who will be saved. His atonement is not a mere possibility for the chance that God could fail. God's not going "gee, I sure hope I'm able to save someone".
Also, did Christ atone for the sins of the house of Eli?
1 Samuel 3:14
"Therefore I swear to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli's house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever.”
Christ did not atone for the sins of all.
@@goosieschmoo8239 where does the Bible say what you’re saying? It doesn’t. It says Christ died for the world so that WHOEVER believes in Him will have eternal life. That is a condition, meaning that eternal life is available only to those who believe. Saying that Jesus died for everyone doesn’t mean I’m saying that his atonement applies to everyone.
@@austinp1998 whoever believes will be saved. And those who believe are ordained by God from before the foundation of the world.
1 Ephesians 4 "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him."
God also makes it very clear that you can't even come to Christ unless the Father first draws us and those drawn to His Son will be saved:
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent medraws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."
God decides who will be saved and it's entirely up to His mercy and pleasure. Anything other than that is man thinking they're owed salvation from God.
@@johnsixfourteefour629 I love John 6:44. It's shows that we can't come to Christ unless the Father first draws us and those whom which the Father draws WILL be raised up at the last day.
@@goosieschmoo8239 You line of thinking assumes that faith is from man. If faith is from God, then your argument falls apart. Additionally, it would seem to imply that the atonement does not need to be appropriated by faith.
They goto hell because they didnt believe on the Son
I disagree with all 5 points of Calvinism but I'd say limited atonement is one of the most egregiously against scripture.
T total depravity is as bad because both make God into a Liar everytime he called people to repentance and they did not repent, It makes it out as if he is secretly wanting them to perish as he is openly telling them he has mercy for them
Justified by His Blood (Rom 5:9).
So, Universal Salvation is what you hold to?
I agree. The thing THIS GUY is missing is that limited atonement states that Jesus ONLY died and suffered enough to atone for ONLY enough people who will believe in Him. This is not the case, though, because Jesus says that "whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life." There is a choice here. This also creates a problem with the "Unconditional Election" doctrine as God will not force someone into heaven or hell against their will. The Bible is clear that we have a choice and that we must have faith in Christ in order to be saved. God is sovereign, but we are given free will (even though God knows the outcome, He does not force or create the outcome). Nothing about that is at odds with scripture... In fact it is the most compatible view.
All 5 points are flawed in some way.
@@prvtcaboose Justification is the result of "his blood" (cf. Rom. 5:9).
If Jesus died for every single individual human being, then they'd all be Justified.
Thus, the heresy of Universalism.
@@ryangallmeier6647yes, we are justified by His blood. And if you look at the verse before that. It says that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. And then after that verse it says that we were still enemies of God when Jesus came and died.
You seemed to either knowingly or unknowingly (likely unknowingly) misrepresented what I said. I never claimed to believe or hold to a universalist doctrine. That is, as you put it, heresy through and through. I never claimed that. What I said is that Christ died for all, but unlike Calvinists, I believe that we have a choice to choose Jesus or reject His gift.
If, for example, I got everyone in the world a bar of soap as a gift (I know it's a lame gift but go with it 😂). So I offer it to everyone. If someone rejects the gift, I am not going to force them to take it, but it also does not mean that I never offered it to them. The gift is still there, they just need to accept it. If they reject it, they don't get the soap, but it still doesn't change the fact that I got it for them. My gift was not limited in the sense that that person didn't get one... It was offered, they just didn't take it.
In the same way, Christ died with the capacity to accept all, but not all will accept Him as Lord, and therefore, not all will be saved. That is my stance, and that is not universalism. I hope this clears things up, and I may not change your mind (I accept that notion), but I just ask that you realize that there is not a heresy in what I said.
Peace and God be with you!
Bingo! Well said, brother Keith!
If the Atonement is unable to actually save anyone on its own then it is limited in power, if it is actually able to save someone on its own but not all go to heaven then it is limited in its scope. No matter how you look at it the atonement is limited.
Stay away from calvinism.
Stay away from fanaticism of men.
Follow Jesus, become a Christian.
Calvinism is as much a choice as Paul deciding to become a Christian on his way to persecute them
@@nunyabusiness5275 exactly 😂
Why ? I heard that before and you guys lie .. sorry to burst your bubble .
@@wretchedsavedbygrace4499 calvinism paints God as the author of evil..
That is why..
We don't have a bubble.. its the calvinism..
Where is the lie?
@@daddada2984 Evil only exists because God ordained it. If God didn't ordain evil, then God doesn't control evil, So therefore God is not omnipotent, which means that God isn't God. God ordained evil rather than not so He could gain more glory, God is glorified more through the existence of sin and the destruction of it than if sin would've never existed, that's just a basic overview of it. Read "Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God" by John Calvin so you won't say anything else as stupid as this.
I think the term throws people off. Because they apply their own definition based on what they think it means. I'm a calvinist and before I was one that term weirded me out. I liked the term particular redemption better. But now that I understand I still wouldn't use the term when trying to convince an arminian of the doctrines of grace because I think it can be a stumbling block for them. I would rather talk through John 6, Romans 8, and Ephesians 1 and bring up those terms later when they are convinced by scripture. However when I'm talking amongst my own circle we all know what those terms mean so it's fine. I hope that made sense.
Holy Orthodoxy baby. 1 point- Follow Christ and build His church
Agree with you
Ironically, the root of his argument is the Protestant view of Atonement, (Penal Substitutionary Atonement). If he took the Orthodox view of the Atonement his argument would be completely toothless.
@@josephbrandenburg4373 that 5 point is all nothing but problems, its just another gospel that go against the teaching of the apostles, everything is totally wrong
Based.
Really riled up the free will and modernists with this one
Free will is about election though not the extent of the atonement. Keith's argument that no one would be lost if Christ died for everyone essentially says that the atonement saves apart from faith.
a 4 point Calvinist is a person who does not understand Calvinism
It is a house of cards that falls when any point is taken away
A 5 point Calvinist is a person who doesn’t understand the Scriptures.
Read the NT and it falls like a house of cards.
@@MatthewHarris47 that is the point of what I said it’s a different God opposes the scripture
Anyone who claims to be a three or four point Calvinist doesn’t understand Calvinism, because each point depends on each other
It all together not biblical
@@victorcritelli5790 Ah, sorry. Misunderstood you. You’re absolutely correct - the more moderate positions have even more intractable issues.
Absolute facts. The very first point - Total Depravity - is false and makes EVERY SINGLE point false. Sad that people have this belief in Calvinism and believe God would just condemn people to Hell without choice
This current age of social media is catering to this false understanding of the Bible big time!
People use to rely on the Word of God and their local churches. Now we have the very prince of the power of the air taking full advantage of men's desire to relish in the idea that they know more than all of those who studied to show themselves approved unto God and rightly divided the word of truth.
The last time that Calvinism reached such heights was when certain men brought the church into a militant church state and severely persecuted and silenced those who refused to be a part of the reforming of the harlot. These dissenters were separate of her altogether and this didn't sit well with the strong arm of these Catholic offspring.
Just observe the way that many of them speak of us. Some of them would have no issue following in "their father's" footsteps and having us silenced as well it seems.
“If I get to define the terms in a way that changes what they commonly mean, surely you can agree with me?”
1 Corinthians 2:14 KJVS
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
@@ManassehJones I’m Lazarus in the grave waiting to hear Jesus call my name, until then you simply cast your pearls before swine because until God effectually and irresistibly graces me with the gift of faith, all I hear is clanging cymbals and sounding gongs when you present this information
@@lolersauresrex8837 BRILLIANT!!! Why do these calvinist try to teach the gospel when their doctrine teaches they play no part in who God elects? The atonement is limited and no man can influence another mans predetermined fate. It's like they think man has a freewill, lol. Guess they forgot their own doctrine.
1 John 2:1-3 is enough to not believe in the L of limited atonement
A song said that the wrath of God was satisfied. But that's a song, not the bible.
The people who go to hell will definitely experience wrath of God. His wrath is only satisfied for the believers who continue to believe till the end and don't fall away or depart purposely from the faith. Those two things can be done.
We must guard our gift and not give up.
Why give up if he told us that if we endure till the end we'll be saved? That's a guarantee that we'll be saved if we just don't stop believing and Continue following Jesus and being more confirmed to his likeness daily until our end of life, or until he comes back.
Propitiation is not necessarily a synonym for atonement
And the amazing thing is that if anyone ever ends up in Hell, they have no excuse. The gospel is even written in the stars.
I am a 0 point Calvinist. I was heading down the road to believing in Calvinism and found that it gave me absolutely no assurance of my salvation, no hope, and constant inward introspection. Jesus died for all men, John 3:16. God did not choose which individuals would be saved but already knew beforehand who would be saved. Man can choose to be saved but in their natural state, they do not want to turn to Christ. That’s why the Holy Spirit must convict sinners. Believers do not persevere in the faith themselves. It is God through the power of the Holy Spirit who preserves believers for all time. I will never accept Calvinism. It is another false doctrine of men. We need to take off the rose colored glasses and see the Bible as it really is and not look to man’s opinions.
You're 0 points? You don't believe that man is sinful? You don't believe God's love is unconditional? Wow dude sounds like you're not even Christian!
AMEN... An honest Calvinist sleeps with one eye open. "Evanescent Grace" hangs over their head like the Sword of Damocles. If no one can profess Christ apart from God's decree... neither can any one renounce their profession apart from God's decree.
According to Calvin, whatever a man believes about God is just a manifestation of God's decree. Many Calvinist leaders have left faith in recent years, most now denying Christ.... If Calvinism is true this is only by God's decree. And their entire Christian experience was just a mirage because God never loved them in the first place and they just didn't know it.
Consequently, if God does this so 'some' ... no one can ever know if he's doing it to them now.
And he cannot be trusted to love any specific individual. It isn't true, Calvinism is a lie. Satan always brings God's character into question.
@@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT these Calvinists remind me of Beavis and Butthead. Dumb as a rock, ruin everything they touch, and are a nuisance to everyone.
Amen. Not only the introspection, but the anxiety and worries that come when you have children too. What if one of my children is predestined to go to hell? Etc. I just cannot believe a loving God would do that.
So a zero point Calvinist in the sense you believe none of the points of Calvinism or you don't want to call yourself a Calvinist? So what about the "P" in TULIP? You don't believe the sheep or the saints will Persevere to the end?
Our God and Lord Jesus said that whosoever beleive in him will have eternal life!
There is no such thing as “limited atonement”. Scripture says exactly, that Jesus came and died for every man and that God does not harden the hearts of men or keep them from following Christ, that man hardens his own heart against Christ and Christ gives him free will to do so and allows it. We are not slaves. Calvinism is not Christianity. It goes against scripture.
100% Calvinism is an Idol as is all of the Augustinian teachings
@@victorcritelli5790 Yep, and they love themselves some Augustinian philosophy. Glad somebody said it out loud! 👍
Did Christ atone for the sins of the house of Eli?
1 Samuel 3:14
"Therefore I swear to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli's house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever.”
Christ did not atone for the sins of all.
@@victorcritelli5790Augustine and Calvin didn't come up with limited atonement by the way, they never taught it. It was added on later. That's a part of the reason why some Calvinists don't believe it, or believe that it goes against scripture.
@@BrownGuyGaming91 Calvin did for sure, In fact he even if said if one believed and fell away its because God gave them false faith to condemn them all the more and no one believed if God did not give them the ability and the irresistible grace
By default it was limited attornment if nothng else
Augustin just gave the gnostic foundations for Calvinism and many other things that were building blocks for not just Calvin but Luther and the catholic church as well
The reason I find that many Christians don't like the Calvinist doctrine has little to do with a Biblical reason for disagreeing with it, but rather because it just doesn't feel right. Those of us who are Calvinists leave our feelings at the door and submit wholly to scripture - even if we may not personally like the ramifications of it.
😂 yea calvinist submit to scripture cant even get passed John 3:16.... cant make this stuff up.
@@Manofwar7 :: John 3:16 is an excellent verse supporting Calvinism. Thanks for bringing that up!
" . . . THAT ALL WHO BELIEVE IN HIM will have everlasting life." There's the elect for you! Next!
@@marconi3142 LOL God really does NOT love the world in any meaningful sense. Since he "Predestined" some to eternal hell after what scripture refers to a "vapor" of a lifetime. Here for a vapor then hell for eternity! Yea thats the Calvinist God of Love. NOT! He judges and sends to hell when he did not "elect" them to believe in the first place! A man has 10 children and 3 he pulls out of the fire the other 7 he essentially says you were born to burn! The 3 then say he is just because they were not of the seven. I remember listening to John Piper say he did not know if his son(s) was elect or not (born for hell) So God commands us to love more than he does. Move along with that unbiblical garbage. Judging men and sending them to hell when they had no choice!!! Double predestination is Calvinism NOT the gospel. Take care sir. The God I know really LOVES THE WORLD and in a meaningful sense John 3:16 .
@@Manofwar7 John 3:16 doesn't present a problem for Calvinism. Whosoever will believe is absolutely true, Calvinism explains who the whosoever is.
@@joev2223 ok sir. Take care 🙂
Whenever someone says Christ atoned for the sins of all, just ask them if He atoned for the sins of the house of Eli.
Unless you’re a universalist --> gang
“ He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance”
I am on my 4th listen to make sure I get it! Can you imagine how long it has taken me to understand Calvinism!
Because Calvinism lives in contradictions and speaks the language of the Dragon, he was a liar from the beginning
@@appointedadaywoah c'mon now
@@N8R_Quizzie ??
@@appointedaday bold claim
@@N8R_Quizzie it’s just a fact you see it all the time they speak at a bold side to their mouth. Hey, I believe in free will let me talk for 45 minutes and then round you back to some slick way of saying you don’t have free desires of your desires control you will so you don’t have free will but yet you have free will
So many arguments just like that twisting of scripture
At first, it was hard to see, because I don’t always speak contradictions in the same sermon in fact, most of the times, separated by a little bit, but no preach Jesus died for all people and there’s a call to repentence for everyone
And then preach another time or teach in the small groups rather, the Jesus only died for the elect
They live in contradidiction, and they’re not even embarrassed
If salvation is not a choice then how ever will we be saved? And how can there be free will?
The wages of sin is death, not eternal punishment.
Death is an eternal punishment
???? where have you ever been taught such nonsense??
Hell lake of fire this is how death is described, eternal life is knowing God that is how life is described
Biblically speaking
@@appointedaday I am sorry that you have been taught incorrectly about death and hell. The lake of fire, as described in Revelation 20, is the destination of all who are not found in the Lamb's book of life as well as death and hell itself. The Lake of Fire and hell are not the same. The lake of fire is also known as the second death. The second death is the opposite of eternal life. The second death is destruction as nothing can exist outside of God. I do not expect you to just believe me but I do suggest you read Revelation 20 and make sure you are not just believing something you have been taught but relying upon the words in the actual bible. As to where I learned it... I was taught by men what you said my whole life. I learned the truth by actually reading the bible and believing it. Hope that helps. I do not say that to offend you but it my honest answer.
It took me a while, but I finally came around to limited atonement a few days ago, so this video affirming what I've come to believe with such perfect timing almost seems like a sign from The Lord saying, "Yep, you've got it, kid."
You are crazy birdie.
The Choose Your Adventure picture Bible with no Hell or Old Testament or judgement talk would be a #1 best seller. Especially if you didn’t even have to read it, if someone could just save you some of your super important time and summarize the whole thing in 90 seconds … you know, so you could decide if you agreed with God first, before deciding on your own to let yourself be saved, but capturing the moment perfectly so you could show exactly what you did on social media
most people who haven’t studied quantum mechanics don’t have an opinion on it, let alone the confidence to stand boldly by their own ignorance. But it seems just about anybody these days is ready to get on a soapbox and lecture me on theology and doctrine (which most never read, and few understand), even the heathen. People who’ve never read the Bible. Church is full of them too…
I never set out to follow a certain doctrine”. I set out to know God through His word, not the words of others. I left behind the ones that weren’t preaching what I was reading from the source material. I got deep enough into the word and a love for Gods truth (you know, from actually reading it, over and over and over again…) that I eventually realized I was one of those, “fundamentalists” “puritans” aka a “Calvinist”.
I mean I prefer “true believer child of God” personally 😊. But that’s risky by association -because I can at least trust that I’ll never find “Calvinist” or the 5 Point Tulip tattooed on some rapper or celebrity.
People keep looking for the God that reflects their ideal image of Man. It’s sad, and they don’t even see it, and get angry when you try to help them see it. Which reinforces Calvinist doctrine 😂
really enjoy your channel. Thanks for what you do. The personas crack me up.
(born Mennonite, then Southern Baptist, then Methodist, then Quaker, then Presbyterian, then/now/forever “Christian” …until I meet the authors 🙏 “reformed Calvinist”
So God makes an appeal to creatures to trust Him that cannot positively respond in faith apart from regeneration?
With you brother, 5 pointer here. All 5 points are interelated. If you deny one you deny them all. God is sovereign over all salvation.
That's simply not true...
So we are to believe Jesus died for everyone? That Jesus satisfied God’s justice for all? How, then, can anyone be found guilty and condemned if Jesus was the propitiation for all? If Jesus died for everyone and satisfied God’s wraith against all, how can God find fault with anyone? That’s double jeopardy, which would make God unjust. This also undermines God’s wisdom by suggesting his plan for salvation wasn’t good enough, his love not saving enough. Its like purchasing ice cream from a vendor, and walking away without the ice cream. Foolish. If God planned for all to be saved, and thus died for everyone, this suggests his blood and sacrifice were insufficient to save all he died for. That his blood was wasted on those who rejected this atonement. “No”they will say, “God gives us the option of receiving his saving grace. By our own free will.” So basically saying God’s love only gets us so far? That it then befalls us to do the leg work and receive salvation? Foolish. Salvation belongs to The Lord, not us. To suggest we achieved this victory, even a small slice of
It, is false. All things belong to God, all glory belong to God, not us.
Exactly. The debate ultimately boils down to conditional versus unconditional.
Yes Christ only paid the price for those who repent. But that still doesn't take away our free will And does not mean god determines our will for us. He simply knows what will happen in the future that's it
Idk why you Calvinists are here anyway... if what you believe is true then we were predetermined to believe it isn't.
True, but we don't know who will be changed to believe and who will not. That is one of the reasons for evangelism for a "Calvinist". Also, we believe Armenians or non-Calvinists are still Christian, but iron sharpens iron and we should help build each other up in knowledge of truth.
Thank you comment section
This conflates the universal extent of the atonement with the limited application of the atonement. Just as the serpent in the wilderness was lifted for the whole nation, only healing was applied to those who looked to the provision in faith. So too, Christ was lifted up for the sins of the whole world but healing/salvation is only applied to those who look to him in faith. As John said, he is “The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.”
@Soteriology101, I hope you can get this guy on your show. It would be enjoyable to listen to him defend his Calvinism against someone other than himself.
I think you misunderstand when someone says Jesus dies for all. It’s not that someone believes that since Jesus went to the cross that all people are automatically saved, it’s that all have the choice to be saved or not. Now, since Christ went to the cross we as humans now have to respond to that. Either to choose damnation or salvation, and that salvation is not of us but of God but the price has been paid, the gift is given should we choose to accept it.
Limited atonement means His was only intended for a group of people. People who don't agree with limited atonement means to say that the Gospel is available to all people in a provisional manner, yet many will reject it. It was available to them though. Unconditional election is a separate issue, meaning, those who are elect, can not reject the Gospel. That's different from the availability of the atonement.
No it is not, And the early calvinist would not have had an issue with it either, but the newer ones like to disguise their more unbiblical pieces of doctrine in this kind of smoke and mirror tactics
Thank you!
It seems like calvinists have a hard time understanding this
Great, next let’s do the problem with Calvinism/Islamic fatalism in general.
Thank you for your videos.
Calvinism is the only cult that exhibits pride when they reduce/limit Jesus’ atonement for sin.
Scripture is clear; we are saved from sin through faith in Christ. This is the only way we become part of the body of Christ, which is seen as blameless and holy to God.
Where does that faith come from? How do you gain faith in God if you do not have it?
@@joshuahawley2073 For me, I consciously chose to trust in Jesus as savior. It was one specific day and time. That faith comes from us, and it's through our faith that we are saved.
@@jedimasterham2 so what about Ephesians 2, when it says faith is a gift from God?
If one makes a distinction between salvation being available for someone and having been applied to someone, Unlimited Atonement is feasible. A 4-point Calvinist could say something like, "Through the death of Christ, salvation is made available to everyone, and through God's Irresistible Grace it applied to the elect." This helps explain passages like 1 John 2:2.
Atonement is unlimited from our perspective, judgement has not taken place. The investigative judgement however as the Adventists call it is already under way in each of our lives.
No, they are going to hell because they have not excepted the atonement Christ made for everyone, for if you reject Christ you reject heaven.
Yet God is love and Jesus says He forgives all sins apart from blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (which means to deny His truth as it is revealed to you), so the atonement must be unconditional. Election must be determined by our willingness to love Him which demonstrates that we are not totally depraved.
Christ died for all mankind, hell has nothing to do with it!! By the way hell is not a doctrine, it’s a place.
ok what in the world are you saying? are you saying hell is not real? are you saying its not important? are you saying we shouldn't speak about it? that is should not be a motivation? your not making sense none of these things would be biblical
@@appointedaday Hell is absolutely real, that’s why I said it is a place.
But Christ dying for all men isn’t because of hell, it’s because he loved us.
As Paul says in Gal 2:20-21 “the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me”
Limited atonement doesn’t fit with Romans 5- v12 says- By one man (Adam) sin entered the world and death by sin so that death passed upon ALL men for ALL sinned.
V19 says- For just as through the disobedience of the one man (Adam) the many (ALL as per verse 12) were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many (ALL) will be made righteous.
This clearly teaches that through Adam (v12) ALL men were made sinners yes?
So then in v19 what does it mean that through Christ “many” (ALL same word as in Adam all made sinners) will be made righteous?
We know clearly that all men will not be saved (I do not believe in universalism) but surely Romans 5 teaches that the sufficiency of Christ’s death upon the cross is such that he died for ALL men, not just a limited few?
@@Bigdavemc79 you’re not explaining yourself
You’re talking about limited atonement
Which has nothing to do with anything we’re discussing here
Yes, he loves us. Yes, he gave himself for us because he loves us.
But why ?
Why would it cost him so much F it had nothing to do with hell, condemnation or judgment
Why would it then be necessary?
No because I love my son what if I had to walk in traffic one day what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
He died to save us from hell, death judgment, Satan
All of that
Because death is the wages of sin
And you completely missed putting Romans for no reason there’s nothing to do with talking about here
@@appointedaday OK, thanks for replying anyway.
Obviously Christ died so as to make a way back to God for sinners and to remove the penalty of sin from those who trust in the finished work of the cross by faith, I wasn’t disputing that. And never would.
Crossed wires.
You are obviously way more advanced than me on every level and I bow to your superior knowledge of all things to do with the Bible.
Is the dude in the video not talking about Limited atonement?
That’s why I mentioned it!
One of our hospital chaplains ( a woke woman ) told me she was a 2 point lol😂
Lol we call those Armenians
One goes to he'll because they have rejected Jesus's gift of atonement , not because their sins were not atoned for.
Even the reformers believe in a general atonement for all mankind, however they affirm that the benefits of Christ atonement was applied to those who believe.
The only path to salvation is clearly written. There is no way to the father except though the son. Any other doctrine is false teaching , any instructions given that are not from scripture is false. It says over and over again Christ is the only way to receive everlasting life. Turn away from sin and repent. Believe, confess , be baptized, and repent. We all have the choice to accept or reject. There is no place in scripture that says only certain people can receive salvation.
Godly repentance, not Judas repentance.
The problem with anti-calvinism is it says unredeemed people choose hell. That's unthinkable. No one would choose hell.
I have seen thousands die. NO ONE CARES. There is no fear of God, and I can count on TWO HANDS the number who have said they're actively trusting the blood of Jesus to be saved.
I wholeheartedly agree. However, 4 Point Calvinism a.k.a Amyraldianism or sublapsarian Calvinism is a tenable position. They just order the decrees differently.
By tenable I mean as a system. Exegetically, I think it falls on its face and as you said I don't know how anyone could affirm PSA as a 4 Pointer but nonetheless I can respect 4 point Calvies like Millard Erickson.
Wrong again!! Your misunderstanding what atonment does! Nobody is saved because of the atonment. The atonment doesn't save anyone! Christ died for the sins of the world so that all may be saved through (faith) (belief) its by grace you have been saved (atonment) how? Through FAITH!!
I have been convicted of my sins. If I was a Calvanist, I could just turn my nose up at everyone. However, Jesus said to go out and preach the good news in the great commission. The Evangelical Church is turning people off. Calvin didn't save me, Wesley didn't save me, a reformed church didn't save me; but the blood of Jesus saved me.
Nobody will be burning in hell for their sins. They go because they don't believe in Christ
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." (John 8:24, NASB)
Where do you get that doctrine?
@michaelprodzinski3351 a person goes to the lake of fire because they did not believe. They don't go because of their sins. Their sins were all paid on the cross but they wouldn't believe and be born again. You need a new nature, being born again of the Spirit of God. Your sins are a symptom of the old nature, that's why ye must be born again.
@@robcrobert amen but to say someone will not go to hell because of their sin is completely denying the message of the Bible. If you do not believe you will spend an eternity in hell never paying for even one of your sins. That is what that verse says. Do you deny what Jesus himself teaches? They will die in their sins. And therefore go to hell. That’s why the atonement is limited because not everyone is going to Heaven and as Jesus says not everyone’s sin is paid for. To deny that is to deny a major doctrine in the Bible.
@michaelprodzinski3351 Jesus paid for everyman sins. Limited atonement is heresy. (Hebrews 2:9 KJB) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
An unbeliever will suffer eternity in the lake of fire not for their sins but because they were not born again.
@@robcrobert where in the Bible are you getting that someone will not go to hell for their sin? Brother or sister I am quite baffled. The Bible is very clear you do not die for your nature but because of your sin. God is just and convicts people of sin.
16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." (Genesis 2:16-17, NASB)
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. (James 2:10, NASB)
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23, NASB)
Sin=death which is the reason people go to hell. If no sin exists, death has no power any longer. You seem to misunderstand a great deal of scripture and yet accuse me of heresy. Read scripture, study to show yourself approved, and then come back to debate.
0 point is biblical
Yeah except total depravity is one of the most biblical doctrines in TULIP and the P comes nearly word for word from 1 John 2:19 and if you don't believe in U you believe that something else is above God and if you don't believe in I you believe that God can fail.
@@Jondoe_04 Or it means I believe in free will, and, that although God could clearly override human free will, he willingly choses not to do so.
@@jokaiitsfire im sorry but you need to establish free will as an actual doctrine in scripture. For example Augustine didn't even do that in his teaching of free will. Augustine did show scripture is clear man has a will, calvanist do not deny that, but he failed to show it can override God's will. It is clear the will of man in his natural state is a slave to sin, that it hates God and it can not do a thing to please Him. Jesus made it clear unless you are born of water and the Spirit you can not see the kingdom of God. Scripture is clear The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil. The mind of man plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.
Proverbs 16:4, 9 NASB1995. God knows the end from the beginning not because He is responding to it but because He made it and all that He wills will come to pass. Look at the last few chapters of Job, can you give console to God? Look at Ezikel 36:22-37:14 who is the one who is doing everything and what compeles Him to move? The only verses I can think of anyone will try to cite is the one in Isaiah where his prophecy "failed" and Joshua as for me and my household we will follow the LORD but the prophecy didn't fail in Isaiah. It's the same exact thing that happened with Jonah God said destruction is coming and that was the thing that made them repent which Jonah literally said he knew would happen which is why he didn't want to go.... look Calvanism doesn't teach we are just a bunch of robots forced to sin cause God just made us that way. What it does teach is God has a will and God has the ability to use our fallen nature our sin to accomplish His will sometime (when I say sometimes He doesn't just use our rebellion sometimes He just acts). Yet the only way anyone is saved is by any other means then God replacing your heart of stone with a heart of flesh and by giving you His Spirit. If you want an example of God using sin for His own good besides the cross Isaiah 10:15, God allow being one who saves you not because of your will but His good pleasure Romans 9. Calvinism inst meant to limit who is saved, it tries to show how much He loves you individually, He saw your sin and goes I will pay for you specifically not generally.
@@Jondoe_04 except it's not, Not only is it unbiblical but it also makes God a Liar and a trickster its wicked and evil to its core
@@appointedaday please explain how that would make God a liar? He made it clear the natural man can not please God infact He is unable to.
Limited as in a person has the choose to not accept God’s forgiveness.
Personally, I prefer to call this doctrine “Legitimate Atonement” Jesus Christ died on the cross as
A Real Saviour For Real Sinners!
What if He just covered the punishment and consequences for sin? Anyone who rejects that only adds to their grief in Hell.
I dont think atonement is limited. People just reject the gift and therefore don't receive it. But Jesus did pay for the gift.
Christ’s death is SUFFICIENT for all, but EFFICIENT for those who believe.
Over 25 x the Bible says Jesus died for the world. What you are arguing is not biblical, it is the argument from John Owen.
I've always wondered what about the idea of the sin which condemns is rejection of Christ? Therefore all sins are forgiven all people except the unpardonable sin of rejecting Christ
Justified by His Blood (Rom. 5:9).
Universal Atonement advocates MUST espouse Universal Salvation as its logical concomitant.
Of course, no one ever accused synergists of being consistent in their views.
This was a jumbled mess… not believing in the limited atonement doesn’t mean that you believe everyone is saved and not going to hell. It means that everyone needs a savior and has free will to choose. The idea that there is a limited elect that Christ died for goes against the majority of the New Testament.
This is completely backwards
People go to hell not because their sins weren’t atoned for, but because they were and they rejected the gift
Calvinism is a heresy that destroys the nature of man, the nature of God, and the understanding of our relationship with God and each other
People don’t go to hell because their sins haven’t been atoned for but because they’re not born again, not converted. The concept of an unconverted person in heaven makes no sense. It’s not a transaction question (has this been paid for?) but a reality question - what fellowship does righteousness have with unrighteousness? Who can dwell with the everlasting burnings? Only the righteous. Do we wish to spend eternity in the presence of God? We need Christ to do so - we need to be born again, to believe in Christ.
This is typical calvinist double-speak.
(he said)
"Those that don't believe in Christ do go to Hell, they go to Hell to pay for their sins because their sins have not been atoned for."
(he also says)
"If anyone goes to Hell, they're going there because their sins have not been atoned for."
Everyone in hell has their sins atoned for. Having sins atoned is not all that is required for salvation.
People need to turn and repent and trust in Jesus and they can be saved. He payed the price for all but if someone rejects the gospel and the perfect sacrifice of King Jesus , they will go to hell because they don’t acknowledge Him and what He did. But anyone can be saved if they want to. They need to repent !
Nobody chooses to believe. You either do or don't. Nobody chooses to be ticklish.
They either are or aren't. Something either is funny or not. I cannot choose to believe in Jesus. The gospel fits in the heart of the people who have the gospel shaped hole in their hearts. Not everyone has it. Those are the non believers. They didn't choose to not believe, the same way that we didn't choose TO believe. God creates us all and whether we believe or not , is up to him, not us.
We say we have free will only because we believe we have free will. It seems like we do, but we really don't. I can't help but believe that Jesus died and rose again.
Hearing the gospel made me believe.
But some hear the gospel and don't believe.
Faith comes by hearing, only for the people who God elects. We are chosen by him.
We love him because he first loved us.
We chose him because he chose us.
Everyone in existence is called, but few are chosen. Please let me know if you believe that I'm wrong on any of these things.
The bible backs everything I've said here.
Christ died for everyone. So limited atonement is a false doctrine.
While the atonement, by nature of Christ's position as Messiah and King, by default extends to all humanity, there is one condemnation. Man is sent to hell on the basis of whether or not he receives the atonement. The atonement is universal in its extent, but limited in application to those who believe. It is available for all, but it's benefits are granted only to those who believe.
It is a gift that has been provided and that must be received. Its source is the riches of God's grace, and God gives according to the riches of his grace. There is no limit to the riches of God's grace. If Atonement is truly limited to a few in its extent, then God only has so much grace to go around and is himself, limited.
I find that the doctrine of lordship salvation puts these discussions in their proper perspective.
Christ’s death does not atone for the sin of final unbelief at a minimum.
And if Christ’s death was for the whole world and is effective for the sin of the whole world, why does ANYONE go to hell? Why not just be a universalist? And since I don’t think that many of those who would disagree are universalists, let’s discuss this. 😊
Not just that, but their other problem is with the doctrine of Original Sin and what Scripture says about it.
But Limited Atonement is only scary if you are premil dispy.
-If you are postmil
-believe the promise to Abraham is literal in its numbers
-and believe the "narrow way" is not literally saying only a small % of humanity gets to heaven
Then you would realize over 200+ sextillion souls will be saved by Christ in his limited atonement over thousands of years, and as we move further into hte future, most humans will actually be saved.
Premil dispy is probably the most pessimistic view of God's grace, and I could understand why Limited Atonement would be off putting for them.
Election seems to be the most misunderstood doctrine of the Bible. But it’s pretty simple really. When you compare scripture that talks about election with other scripture, it’s clear that it can’t mean that only some people are able to be saved and others aren’t. ALL have had their sin paid for and ALL have the opportunity to choose salvation and be placed in Christ.
I think Christians should just preach and let God do the drawing of people to Himself. Let us stay away from doing God's which involves choosing those who by His infinite wisdom He Saves..We complicate issues that needs no complications.
Limited atonement is just triniterian atonement.
Atonement is for everyone you only have to believe and repent and your sins will be forgiven.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:9 [KJV]
The reason people go to hell is because they reject Christ , there is an open invitation to all who want to believe in their heart , confess with their mouth , be baptized in the water , and repent from their sins , to turn away from sin and follow Gods instructions. Salvation is though Grace “Christ” and obedience “following Gods Law”.
Arminian Gospel: Believe and you will be saved
Calvinist Gospel: Believe and you will be saved.
We can disagree on wether the five points are biblical, but dont tell me its a different Gospel, or i will know that you are using a straw man either out of anger or pride or fear.
The only way I can see 4 points being right (which I don't) is if Christ is the one who punishes the damned with His wrath to "undo" the atonement that He did on the cross for all unbelievers. I think John 3:17 refutes this idea.
Well, you’d first have to believe Christ died for everyone to be in that predicament in the first place. There is no unconditional atonement. Anyone who suggest otherwise doesn’t read scripture, nor understands that which Jesus did on the cross. If Christ satisfied the justice of God for everyone, therefore EVERYONE is justified, how can God find fault in anyone? How can anyone be guilty? How can Jesus say on that day, away from me I never knew you.. if he died for everyone?
@@mattbean9756 I said I'm 5 point and I don't believe 4 pointers because of John 3:17 please don't get on my case buddy.
@@N8R_Quizzie I didn’t see where you said 5 points. my response wasn’t geared against you, I’m sorry that’s how you received it. I was just showing the flaws of anti-tulip thinking in general. Reading my response over, I see how it looks like I’m singling you out you for something you didn’t say lol, sorry. Just trying to bring awareness to the delusional misinterpretation of Arminianism.
@@mattbean9756 I also responded not so nicely and I apologize for that. My boss was confusing me in a negative way just before reading your comment so that attitude spilled out a bit when I replied. I agree with your conclusions! Thanks and have a blessed day
5 Point Calivinists can't effectively account for the latter part of 2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
Arminians believe in limited atonement.
As a Wesleyan Arminian - I can pretty confidently say that we do not.
@@MatthewHarris47 do you believe that all people are going to be saved?
@@robertguidry2168 Yeah, I understand the argument. It's the old Calvinist canard that God limits the atonement in Calvinism, while people limit the atonement in Arminianism. Therefore, universal atonement = universalism.
The trouble is, any argument that contains premises like these commits the fallacy of equivocation.
The Calvinist limitation of the atonement is only those elected are saved - God limited the extent of the atonement. But the Arminian does not limit the extent - if there is a limitation (incorrect word) it is in the intent of the atonement. Salvation is available to all, yet rejected by some.
it is the extent of the atonement that the Calvinist limits. That is what we should be talking about. Truthfully, I do not think people limit anything - but that is a conversation for another day.
Under Calvinism... the odds aren't good for most the people you meet. I wonder how many stop to think about that when they look at all their children. When do you teach little Johnny that God may not 'really' love most of his friends..... and maybe not even him?? ...Real witnessing scenario;
A Calvinist witnesses to man in apt. hallway who prays to be saved.(The Calvinists thinks he got ‘lucky’ and stumbled onto an 'elect' person) The new convert is excited about Jesus and says "lets hurry and go in and share the Gospel with my family". The Calvinist, being an honest person, reluctantly agrees and says "Yes, I guess we should go find out if God loves your wife and kids too!"🤦🏻♂
Applying the word “limited” to anything pertaining to God is a bad idea. The sacrifice and resurrection of Christ was sufficient to atone for the sins of man in their entirety. If I prepare a feast large enough to feed 100 people, but 90 walk by and don’t partake of the meal, the food was not limited in it’s ability to feed the 100, even though it only fed the 10.
Jesus died and made provision for salvation, for ALL of humanity. However, every one will not repent and respond to God's call.
You must be really smart and special because anyone is stupid not to accept that free gift that’s laying all around.
It is logically impossible to believe in 4 points of Calvinism without believing in all 5.
How so???
, Each point depends of the other, if you take away one point you expose it as the house of cards falls on itself
That simply isn't true
The argument in this short is honestly one of the worst that I’ve heard in defense of the “L”.
5-pointer: “The fact that some people go to hell + the deductions of my fallen human reason = the 5 points are true.”
1John2:2: “The authority of divine revelation + a God who actually knows how to convey what he means using words = the 5-pointers are confused.”
If your a 1 point Calvanist you are a 5 point Calvanist they all intertwine. Jesus died that all might be saved. He agreed from the beginning to be a propotiation for our sins but it is our free will to trust solely on His finished work or not. Blood alone for salvation. The predestination of Calvanism is not the predestination of the bible. The Jesus of the bible died for everybody. 🙏
People don’t go to Hell to “pay” for their sins.
They do go there to pay it off, but they will never completely pay it off, it's an infinite fine for offending an infinitely holy God.
“My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father-Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” 1 John 2:1-2 NIV
Bible says He did not only atone for our sins but for the whole world. I would like if you could explain this for me.
1 TIMOTHY 2:1-6.
That's exactly right! Amen
Where is the Bible verse that says people go to hell because their sins haven’t been atoned for? 😂😂
And there's the presupposition, strawmanning, and false dichotomy. I.e. "you don't believe in limited atonement, therefore you believe ____" when actually no, we don't believe that
Begging the question
Was Jesus’ sacrifice attainment enough for 6 billion people but not 100 billion people? Would God have to send another sacrifice?