Why Mary’s Assumption Is Indefensible
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- čas přidán 5. 07. 2024
- In this video I express the Protestant concern about the bodily assumption of Mary, and respond to 6 common defenses of this dogma, including some from the recent video of Trent Horn.
My first video on the topic: • The Assumption of Mary...
My response to Willam Albrecht: • Is Mary's Assumption a...
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Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) serves as senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Ojai.
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00:00 - Introduction
04:53 The Importance of the Assumption
08:54 Summary of the Argument
25:48 (1) An Argument From Silence?
35:21 (2) Is This Inconsistent?
41:08 (3) Did Epiphanius Affirm the Assumption?
44:23 (4) Does Revelation 12 Affirm the Assumption?
48:05 (5) But It Quickly Became Universal!
52:12 (6) All the "Apostolic Churches" Affirm It
54:23 Conclusion: Authority in the Church - Zábava
I converted to the Catholic faith when I was 27 years old (1991). Within 7 seven years, my husband, sister, and best friend joined me. At the age of 52, I was convicted by a Providential discovery of Dr. Greggory Allison’s book, Roman Catholicism: An Evangelical Assessment. I am grateful for the Catholic Church and how it taught me to love Scripture and doctrinal truth. I have an MA in pastoral theology from a Jesuit university. Ironically, my critical thinking skills have led me out of the Catholic Church for two primary reasons: 1. I started to struggle with the RCC’s claims about itself as the one true church (for a number of reasons) and 2. Even though I sincerely love Mary and accept some of the RCC teachings, I just can’t accept that those teachings are elevated to the level of infallible dogma. This places Marian dogma at the same level in the hierarchy of Truth as the resurrection. I simply could not bind my conscience to that. I’ve been writing a bit about my journey in Substack. I’ll post the link, if anybody is interested (it’s free-just a hobby).
Please post the link, I'm interested!
I’d be very interested, please provide a link! Blessings
I'm very interested also 🙋🏻♂️
What denomination did you go to?
I’d be interested in your writing if you’d be willing to share it! 😊 Thanks!
I love all of Dr. Ortlund’s metaphors and analogies. They’re always so creative. He’ll be going in depth on a theological topic and then just be like “ok so imagine California splits into 3 states”
north coast, south coast, interior lol
Thank you pastor
As a struggling Catholic
Your debate with trent horn is how i discovered your channel
As i look more and more into scripture and your works i know where my anxiety and confusion is coming from
May God bless your channel abundantly.
God Bless you on your journey. 🙏
Who wrote the bible?
How do you know Matthew wrote his gospel?
How did Hebrews and Revelation make it into the canon?
There are many more questions you can't answer as a protestant without the Church.
Colossians 2:8
Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
Protestantism is the tradition of men, not the Church.
@@beecee3161 why don’t you ask Michael Kruger those questions and see how badly he will make you wish you never asked. He is a reformed Protestant biblical scholar, who does work on the Bible and the issue of the canon, etc, he has answered every single question that you listed in your comment……. You’re just showing that you do not understand the protestant position on sola Scriptura. And I bet you that you don’t even know the answer to your own questions, but you’re just repeating what you’ve heard other Catholics say. Highly recommend reading by Michael Kruger 😊
@@beecee3161without the church??? The problem with Catholics starts in believing just Rome is the church, and that's totally arrogant considering Rome didn't even participate in ecumenical councils.
Most part of protestantism is from valid and legal churches, clergy and laity, bishops in northern Europe totally accepted the reformation, and according to church fathers no bishop have more authority than other
@beecee3161 I don't understand how these romanists just keep parroting the same elementary talking points as if protestants haven't already answered for centuries. Please, my brother in Christ, at least try to research the historical protestant position before using these childish talking points.
Babe look, new Gavin Ortlund video dropped !!🔥🔥🔥
Ugh. Catholics out here trying to apply divinity to Mary. Let’s get out of here babe.
@@kgpspyguy 😂😂😂
@@kgpspyguy
Um, no.
I am an ex Catholic from from Mumbai, India. After first reading the Bible some 40, 50 years back, as a Catholic I used to struggle with some of the bizarre dogmas and teachings of the RCC and used to think that how can such intelligent and learned prople in the RCC could make such errors leading to weird teachings and idolatrous practices. I finally found a Bible based local church of which there are many in Mumbai and other cities in India. Your videos have been very helpful to see that in reality Protestism is much more apostolic and fundamentslist than what it is made out to be.
God bless you and your family.
may the Lord bless you!
I am also an ex Catholic from india(kerala)
Praise the lord.
@@theknight8524 Praise the Lord.
Most XCatholics leave because of poor education I left but went back after I read the Bible and the catechism hand in hand and watching Trent Horn then I learned the faith , the Catholic faith was not what I thought it was after I learned the truth God Bless an I respect different views
You are assuming Protestant epistemology and Sola Scriptura. No one in the early church, save a few clerics, had complete OT Scriptures never mind the NT. SS was not an operative principle for them then. Unless you can point to where God changed to the Bible being the sole infallible rule of faith.
Mary's assumption is better seen as what it is called. An assumption.
Ba dum cha
😄👍
All Christians who belong to the original Church - Catholics and the Orthodox have always believed it, even back to the Dark Ages. Remember that all the Churches that go back to the time of Our Lord (Catholic, Orthodox and Eastern Oriental) accept the Assumption, only the protestant heretical sects (like the Baptists) which were inventions of men deny it.
@@elizabethburns1449 - why are lies brilliant?
Do you mean that the Roman Church assumes that Mary was assumed?
Sorry, just couldn't resist.
None of the bishops at the council of Nicaea believed dogmatically what the RCC teaches today.
@jamesstrotter3162 - none of the Protestants today believe even what Luther taught 500 yrs ago: True Presence in Eucharist, Mary Ever Virgin ....
Development of doctrine is true in Protestantism as well. No Protestant scholar asserts the full orbed theology of Westminster or Augsburg was held in the 4th century.
@@garyr.8116I know Protestants today who definitely believe what Luther taught 500 years ago.
@@cronmaker2There's a difference between development of doctrine and development of understanding of Biblical doctrine.
@@jamestrotter3162 of course RCism asserts its doctrines are biblical, and the church's growing and deepening understanding guided by the holy spirit drives the development of its dogmas. Regardless, neither Protestantism nor RCism holds their 21st century doctrines are found fully formed and explicated in the 4th century so the original comment is not really germane to the dispute.
Ya know this makes me kinda sad. It’s not the idea of the blessed Mother being assumed that bothers me. It’s the binding infallible declaration behind it that separates me from communing with wonderful Roman Catholic Christians. We will all commune together one day when what fallible men have ruined will be restored by Jesus Christ. Thanks for your work Dr. Ortlund
Amen, till we meet in the air.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 till then 🙏
awww, I'm sorry... I wish we could all be family, too. What faith do you profess?
@@littlechildinbigworld We are family, even if we don't realize it now.
Yes, it is sad. All of the unholy, unnecessary wars.
The deceiver and deceivers HATE
GOD, His Creation and His Truth
As a faithful and devout Catholic, thank you Gavin for your thoughtfulness, for your charity and the good spirit you bring to apologetics. This is so needed on both sides. Still disagree, but this is the way to do it!
What's there to disagree about?
Why do you disagree? What does he get wrong?
@@brettpinion4233 History and epistemology among other things.
The Assumption is promised to all of us. I don’t believe it difficult to think [interpret scripture] that He gave it to his mother earlier than the rest of us?
@@marlam8625 no proof that Mary was assumed into heaven. Not mentioned for centuries.
Wow I just noticed you’re almost at 35k followers. I’ve been here since before 10k, glad to see the channel grow :)
Baptist here to learn a bit more about church history and find out if much of it is even important to know or not.
I have found it to be helpful and even essential🙂.
Thank's for all your work and gentle tone in these discussions. A very important channel.
I've been looking into Catholicism and find this dogma a real sticking point. Thank you for the work you put into this video. Please know that I appreciate your kindness; you honor Jesus in the way you've handled yourself in every video I've watched thus far.
I personally find the perpetual virginity (meaning not physically a virgin despite giving birth) to be very weird.
Anthony Rogers did a couple livestreams on the perpetual virginity, talking about the gnostic origins of the doctrine I just said.
He also argued against perpetual virginity as in not having any other children but I think that that is definitely more debatable and not completely strange.
Trent Horn and Jimmy Atkin have good info
I like Trent Horn, but didn't find his argument very compelling.
Thanks. I'll look into Anthony Rogers.
I think the biggest problem is that there is so much good in Catholicism that is sadly lacking in much of Protestantism.
It makes the choice of choosing Protestantism feel like you have to sacrifice good things (things that are of God) in order to attain others.
Gavin put it wonderfully when he compared it to a divorced couple who are both diminished by their split. It could be the case that the woman was right to leave the man (think abuse, infidelity, etc), and yet both parties are diminished by the split.
I am a Protestant because I ultimately believe it is the side that best represents the Truth, which is the most important thing for my conscience when it comes to following God. But I have to recognize that there is likely much that is good (and even important) within Catholicism that I do not get to experience regularly.
And of course, the same is true in reverse. I long for a day when the two traditions could somehow be reunited, but I’m not sure what that could look like. I pray that God has a plan for it.
Presbyterian here, I have to thank you so much for your content, Gavin. I've been ingesting such a huge amount of theology content lately and also trying to see the Catholic side of apologetics (since I have a considerable amount of Catholic family members and friends)
Your gentle approach and respect of historicity is refreshing to see rather than the flat out demonization of the other side (which happens from immaturity on both Cath and Prot sides)
There's a part of me that reeaallly wishes I could become Catholic to join my family members who are and release that tension, but it's dogmas like this that unfortunately keep me from taking that route. Regardless of the differences though I take comfort that our needs for salvation are met in our mutual love for, faith in, and reliance on, Christ Jesus. God bless you and thank you for your content!
Christ will never leave His mother on earth to decay in a grave, while he reigns in heaven.
Faith and reason must come together, blind faith is false.
There is always a reason behind all Catholic dogmas.
In the year 1854, Pope Pius IX had declared the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary.
Several years later, in 1858, the Blessed Mother gave her name to St. Bernadette at Lourdes, the Lady responded in the Bigourdane dialect, “Que soy era Immaculada Conceptiou,” which means, “I am the Immaculate Conception.”
This proves the authority of the church to “bind and loose”.
I don’t think that the issue is about whether it happened or not, but rather about whether such doctrines are required for salvation.
@@samueljennings4809 The church has always believed in the Marian Dogmas, and even before it was officially defined and it was open for discussion.
People can deny or ignore them, but the church cannot leave any questions unanswered, so it has to define these matters.
In its 2,000 year history the church has answered all questions that has to be asked in regards to our faith, no stone can be left unturned.
it officially defined Assumption of Mary in 1850.
Mother of God in 431, Immaculate Conception in 1854 (Mary herself confirmed this Dogma in 1858) and Perpetual Virginity in 389..
@@samueljennings4809 We must believe in all what God has revealed, this is why they are required for salvation. We cannot choose and pick His revelations.
@samueljennings4809 ALL of the Marian Dogmas are required for salvation ONLY because they point to Jesus. For instance, God created Mary without the stain of sin, only so that no one would question Jesus's purity at birth. Mary is the Mother of God, because Jesus was always and will always be God. Mary is the Queen of Heaven and Earth because Jesus is the King of Heaven and Earth. Mary is a perpetual virgin because she was the human ark of the New Covenant, meaning Jesus was the ultimate High Priest. Jesus was the Ultimate Bread from Heaven. Jesus was the ultimate law giver. Mary was assumed into heaven because Jesus w was the ultimate son and would, of course, bestow every honor and grace upon his mother. Mary ALWAYS points us to the glory, honor and power of Jesus.
Thanks for this, Gavin. Appreciated not only the conclusions you’ve drawn, but the posture in which you approach the topic.
Excellent video, Gavin! Thank you for your thoughtful, well-researched work on this topic, as well as the many other topics you cover on this channel. Keep up the good work and may God bless you with wisdom and discernment!
Thank you for so clearly and succinctly explaining everything! I am an evangelical protestant, and agree, but I love that I now have the clear words to better explain to others.
Made it to the end (as I've done with all your videos Gavin] which required absolutely no effort on my part. I cannot tell you how much your channel has, and continues to, enrich my Christian journey. Thank you and God bless from the north of England.
Thank you Richard, that is so great to hear!
Please return to the Catholic faith, the spiritual heritage of all Protestants.
@@TruthUnites hey Gavin i just watch the video great by the way but my question is what is the name of that song you have playing at the end of your video its a really good beat i would love to know so i can listen to it instead having to always go to the end of the video every time to listen to that song hope you respond back
Watched til the end 😊. Just wanted to say, I am incredibly grateful for your channel. It's been a blessing as I found myself (a protestant) falling down a church history rabbit trail, and seriously considered pursuing EO. You've revealed much, and I'm thankful.
Terrific video. Very persuasive and very well articulated argument. Thank you Gavin!
Made it to the end! Thanks for an insightful look at this issue!
Just want to say thank you for what you are doing. I have always kinda struggled with understand the balance in truth and grace and the nuance of how to talk about your faith and evangelize, and defend it. I was either feeling guilty that wasnt doing enough or that i was being to "mean" but when i did decide to discuss my faith. After I found you it really helped me understand how to rigorously defend in an irenic way. Very cool what tou are doing, and its inspired me to do something similar. God bless.
P.S just finished your book "theological retrieval for evangelicals" one of my favorite books I have read. 👍
Thank you for your videos, Gavin. Truth Unites has been a great resource for me. Genuinely helpful.
Made it to the end Gavin. I appreciate the conciseness by which you present these videos.
I found it interesting that you mentioned the Francis Schaeffer quote. From the content I have seen from you this seems to fit your approach very well. Just as we are to present the Gospel as an extension of truth rooted in love rather than an attack, you also always present your content in a way that is truthful and loving. You always give me such a strong impression that the joy of the Lord in within you. I pray He continues to use you, God bless.
I enjoy your respectful back and forths with Trent.
Praise be to God for how charitable you are in your apologetics Gavin.
Watched to the end and as always amazing video. God bless.
As an ex-Catholic, this was by far one of the most damning piece of evidence that led me out of the Church back in the day. I could not understand how can Catholics insist on a dogma this abstract and unimportant and bind all Christains to it under a curse. For me it was a living proof that Catholic Magisterium is not infallible, but rather, it produces doctrine that seems compelling at the time. I still think Catholics can be saved, because the proper gospel teaching is out there among their countless encyclicas on secondary issues - but remaining in a Church this self-centered was simply out of the question for me. I can't be homest with myself and remain Catholic, when the dogma clearly states that I am under the curse myself for not finding the evidence behind Mary's Assumption coherent.
What is "proper gospel teaching" ? And how do you know?
@@culpepper7665 the truth that to be saved, you need only to have faith in Jesus's saving work. Through that faith, and with an act of repentance from your sins, you are accepted by God as his child, and given saving grace. Apart from any works on your behalf - those will only follow your conversion as natural fruit of love and obediance to God who saved you. This teaching can be found in the Catholic Church nowadays. I personally know many Catholics who believe this "proper" gospel, and they do so on the basis of Catholic doctrine, not their own Bible or Protestant research. One significant place this doctrine can be found is Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, released by the Magisterium in 1999, when John Paul 2 was the Pope. Other places are public statements of faith made by subsequent Popes. Pope Benedict famously proclaimed that Luther was right when it comes to doctrice of Justification - that it is by grace through faith alone, apart from works. Pope Francis also made the same declaration at least twice. You will not find it taught by Catholic theologians and apologists, who fight with this updated doctrine with all their might, but it was embraced by a lot of common lay people who pay attention to such things - many of them have been praying for this teaching to be changed for decades. But, ya know the saying. The watermill of Catholic Church makes its turns slowly, the tradition dictates the tempo. Even though these revolutionary declarations and statements were made, a lot of water needs to still pass through before the Church actually acknowledges them and starts living them out. Still, it is possible now to be fully a Catholic and believe the true gospel. That's something. 30 years ago it was but a dream. You were either a manifest heretic for claiming it, or a false convert, living in hiding but anathema all the same. I give credit when it's due. At least that much has changed.
Marian miracles like Fatima proves catholoc dogma.
This was my same experience.
Hebrews 10 is the one that made me leave that church
Watched to the end! Your videos are fascinating and I applaud your approach.
Watched to the end. Great video as always!😃
This was 50 minutes longer than my video, and also WAY better. Super informative, especially with all the references to the Holy Fathers. Thank you, Gavin.
Glad it was helpful!
Peace.
I'm not sure why being long-winded makes his point better. I would suggest that it weakens his argument as well as accentuates his rejection of consistent Church teaching for almost 2000 years.
You mention the Church Fathers.
Consider this:
Have the greatest intellects of the Church throughout the centuries, failed to do what Dr. O. has done? Sts. Augustine, Bernard, Gregory the Great, Bernardine, Thomas Aquinas, Hilary, Anselm, Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross, Clement, Francis, Benedict, Pius V, Bonaventure, Albert....and so on, from every century to the present have NOT taught what Dr. O. teaches. Not a single one. Not one in 2000 years. Isn't it amazing that after 20 centuries, we now have the good doctor to set us straight?
If you are really interested in understanding why the Bride of Christ teaches as she does, consult the Church, not a protestor to that Church. As an additional resource, I may be able to answer objections that you may have, to your satisfaction.
@@JD-sj1zn How does listing more arguments and being able to go into further detail weaken anyones point?
Also, Dr. O points out what the greatest Intellects of the Church did not teach, which is the assumption of Mary, to make his point. So they're not at odds with each other but rather Dr. O makes it clear to those not familiar with the church fathers that they support the protestant position in this case.
I'm not sure which part of the video you interpreted as setting us straight, all I see is summing up the church fathers' position for an evaluation of their theology across the times.
Been waiting patiently for this. Let me watch now. God bless you and your ministry, sir❤🙏
Pheeeww!!! I just finished the video! This was expository!🙏
I watched it until the end. As a portuguese, I deal with extreme Mariolgy daily because of Fátima, and the next accrecion that is surging: the co-redeption of Mary. This has given my good tools to engage with it, speacily regarding the lady in the book of Apocalipse.
Thank you so much Gavin. 😁
@Duarte1298 "the lady in the book of Apocalipse" - hi brother, perhaps you can answer - in Revelation12:5 Are you stating that 'a male child, destined to rule ALL the Nations with an iron rod' is NOT Jesus, or that the Woman who gave birth to this son 'She gave birth to a son' is NOT Mary ??
@@garyr.8116Mary was a tool, I don't mean that in bad way, if It had not been that woman mary, it would have been another woman equally sinful.
@garyr.8116 the male child is for sure Jesus, but the woman is Israel
I see that also: Mary as "co-redemtrix " will surely come. This is the straw that has caused me to leave Catholicism
I get excited for every post!
Watched to the end! Great vid, Gavin :D
You ATEEEE!
Great work!
Made it to the end. As a Protestant, I actually have zero qualms with the possibility of Mary being assumed bodily. How could any of us truly know?? The way I see it, it's the Lord's business. My problem is, like you said in your conclusion, that the Catholic Church makes this an essential, mandatory doctrine you must assent to or else be anathematized. That is just a step too far for me---saying you are quite literally ACCURSED if you dont assent to this non-biblical doctrine that has no historical evidence. If the RCC or even individual Christians want to accept it as a pious belief, totally fine. But the overreach of authority is just crazy to me.
@patriceagulu8315I'm not a philosophy major but I know that your argument and claim is weak. The shroud of Turin has nothing to do with The Assumption.
True, I have absolutely zero qualms about most of RCC, but when they elevate crazy doctrines with little to no scriptural basis to the level of dogmas...
This is the exact statement I have come to also make stemming from my conscience. I am perfectly fine if she was assumed, but to equate it with the Gospel itself by anathematizing it? Holy moly. That's wild! The scariest part for me, which Gavin rarely touches on, is the Queen of Heaven paganism that it appears this stems from. Not just Gnosticism, but it truly seems to be an infiltration of pagan goddess worship. I know they want to say, "nuance!" but it's just such an exploitation of the Christian conscience to me to do this. That's my deepest and most gut-wrenching struggle with all of this: it is an abuse of the Christian desire to submit and be charitable to such a degree that is beyond comprehension. That's what really hurts me. A wolf in sheep's clothing wouldn't act like a wolf, but it would learn the sheep, behave and speak like the sheep, exploit the nature and desires of the sheep, and that's unfortunately how I see these things. So sad.
Thank you for all you do! I’m a Protestant that struggles with my Protestantism sometimes because our modern church in the US can sometimes seem too trendy and lacking in reverence. Your exposition on scripture has helped ground me in the Faith in Protestantism in a way that I thought traditional Catholicism or Orthodoxy would.
P. S. I made it to the end of the video.
Hi. I'm a former Catholic.
I know what you're saying about the superficial and sometimes downright ungodly trends in many modern U.S. churches. This, however, isn't a problem with Protestantism itself, but a symptom of the overall apostasy affecting many churches as people don't want to hear sound doctrine and seek an entertainment atmosphere.
You can't get grounded in the faith in Catholicism. It is diametrically opposed to the gospel. It allows man made doctrines to supercede scripture. Romans 10:17: Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Therefore, man made doctrines inspired by demons will never produce faith.
@@scottb4579 The worst Catholics become protestants, and the best Protestant become Catholic. Ill take the Churchs dogma over YOUR man made doctrines you get from your opinion in scripture anyday.
@@haronsmith8974 So, you're about to become a Protestant, then...?
@@scottb4579
Peace.
How exactly is the Church, who wrote and gave us the written Gospels, opposed to its teaching?
@@JD-sj1zn What church? Four men gave us the gospels before any catholic church existed.
The gospel of Jesus Christ is this: Christ was brutally beaten, scourged and crucified for the sins of the world. He died, was buried, and rose again on the third day.
For “Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved. Romans 10:13
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast. Eph. 2:8-9
Every catholic doctrine unique to the catholic church is diametrically opposed to the gospel.
Wow, great video and your sincerity in helping us with the Truth amazing🙏🏻Dr Gavin
I only discovered you recently by way of Jordan Cooper. Glad i subscribed, because this video was very informative on something I just perceived as typical, Catholic baloney that was added later.
I watched to the End. Gavin thank you so so much for doing this, and exampling to us how to fight for the unity of the Church while valuing Truth and gentleness. Absolutely love your channel, and it has equipped, encouraged, and corrected me so much. Keep up the good work!!
I made it to the end, watched it while I did some sewing. Thanks for the video~
Made it to the end. Great work dude
You are hands down the most outspoken "preacher" I've seen on this topic. Thank you!!!
Thank you Gavin for the way that you presented the information in regards to this subject. My wife and I have been investigating since the spring of 2023 the early to medieval Catholic beliefs and practices. I have learned and seen that there is a deep richness in the liturgical practices of the early church, as well as great devotional thought found in the church fathers. One area that has bothered me is this topic. Again, thank you for the way you presented the material and thank you for your ministry brother.
I’m glad I watched this video. My heart is secure insofar as I decided to not cross the Tiber.
Dr Ortlund, this is one of your best videos yet. If you have a 'Why Protestantism' playlist, this should be on there. Very well done!
Made it to the end. I love your work. May God bless you and keep you!
Great video Gavin.
This was good! Made it to the end!
I watched to the end. A lover of history and theology: they matter!
Looking forward to watching and learning from more of your great content.
Watched to the end. Well done.
Absolutely love the video!! Definitely watched to the end brother! Unity at the loss of Truth is no true unity. I think I read that somewhere… haha! Please keep up your wonderful effort in the spirit of engagement in the Revealed Truth of Scripture alone for faith and practice.
🙏🏼♥️ Thank You and Gods richest Blessings ✝️
Made it! Great stuff!
"may Christ be honored in the way we search for truth on this topic" 💯
Made it to the end. Great video! Comment for algorithm!
I think this is one of those rare subjects of RC v protestant disagreement where the argument is decisively won.
@patriceagulu8315 Gates of Hell don't prevail against the church under protestantism either. No offense, but this is such a tired, over-used argument.
I made it to the end! Huzzah! That’s easy to do though, as I always find Dr. Ortlund’s videos very interesting. I am a former Roman Catholic of 30 years. I knew that the assumption was a required belief, but didn’t know the history surrounding it. This was true about most of my catechism - knowing the beliefs but not the history of why. When I attended initiation classes for a friend, this issue of the assumption was discussed and the teachers’ arguments were very simple: Mary’s body was nowhere to be found and “early” accounts say she was assumed, thus we believe she was assumed. I was astonished by the lackluster argument and dove into the Marian Dogmas. After months of research into Mary and other topics (mainly the pope), I decided being a Protestant was the best thing for me. I will be confirmed in the LCMS this fall. God bless you, Dr. Ortlund!
Wow! I would love to hear your testimony more fully 😃
Ditto. LCMS here we come!
@@andyheuer?
Welcome to the Lutheran Church. I was confirmed on Reformation Day in 2020.
As always… solid stuff, Gavin! Keep up the good work. You’re in our prayers.
thank you for your content, youtube needs more kind protestant apologists like you
A magnificent and irenic presentation. Very helpful!
Watched to the end, another great video!! Thanks for the education!
Watched to the end. ❤ Compelling video
Excellent overview! I could have listened to far more.
I'm a methodist and grew up in a Catholic school for 12 years. I had to argue and defend my beliefs, every morning during prayer I'd say the Lord's prayer but I'd keep mum during the hail Mary part. This issue has been on my heart since a young age and I'm grateful for Gavin who is able to articulate our position so well and lovingly.
Do you think Jesus talks to his mother in heaven? Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven...
@@bradleesargentThe Lord Jesus talks to everyone who is in heaven. But He answered and said unto him that told him, "Who is my mother? And who are My brethren?" And He stretched forth His hand toward His disciples, and said, " Behold My mother and My brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of My Father which is in heaven, the same is My brother, and sister, and mother."-Matt. 12:48-50.
@@bradleesargent I do think Jesus must have a special spot in his heart for his earthly mother, and likely also his earthly father, Joseph. It is a commandment to honour your father and mother. Yet we have to balance that w/ the fact that God is no respecter of persons, and he loves us all. This is why we find the way Catholics close to deify Mary to be disturbing. We can't find scriptural evidence that she is sinless, a perpetual virgin, or that she was assumed. I would have the least problem w/ Mother Mary being assumed, because she is full of grace and blessed among women. It's the fact the RCC makes it an anathema to not believe in the assumption that is a big problem. Believing Catholic dogma about Mary shouldn't be a salvation issue. Yet is is w/ the RCC. Our salvation is clearly only through Christ though, as the bible says.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 you have no idea because my priest always made it very clear that salvation only comes through Jesus Christ.
@saintejeannedarc9460 there were catholics in Canada called the army of Mary who turned her into a goddess and they were summarily excommunicat3d from the Church. You should not say things when you just don't know or even are curious enough to do the extremely difficult task of research like I had to before becoming a catholic after over 40 years as a protestant.
as a Protestant I have no issue with Mary being bodily assumed or remained a virgin forever but the fact that it is a dogma and that I have to believe it lest I be thrown into hell fire is a serious roadblock for me. How and why is belief in Mary’s bodily assumption essential to the faith, did Mary die for me or did Christ ?
Christ Died for you. However, Mary gave Birth to Him, so that He Could Die for you.
@@splashenful Thank God for allowing Mary the privilege of being the vessel by which he would bring His son into the world but I would not have my eternal security held hostage by whether I believe Christs mother died or not.
@@jovonbrowne3129 Well, at least you are not like other Protestants that go out of their way to tell us Catholic (& Orthodox) Christians that the Marian doctrines concerning Our Lady's Assumption & Perpetual Virginity are both wrong. Back in my younger years, I actually struggled with the Church's devotion to Mary. It took a lot of studying to help me overcome it.
Keep speaking the truth in love! It shall set anyone free willing to humble and accept what is true
As a Lutheran I’m rather indifferent to the assumption of Mary… I personally feel it is adiaphora … many of the reformers seem to be in favour but at the same time not thinking it should be a doctrine
Are you indifferent to the assumption of Luther?
I would be in favour in making a doctrine that he will not be bodily in heaven until the resurrection of the dead at the second coming of Jesus Christ.
That makes no sense at all… Luther was not assumed into heaven. No one believes that.
@@josephnelson9739 Exactly, so the point is apart from the time difference of when they lived. Why for only Mary, should we raise the possibility of bodily entering heaven before the resurrection of the dead.
To be consistent the adiaphora should apply to all believers in Christ, which is why the default should be to deny all assumptions into heaven in the absence infallible eyewitnesses accounts.
@@YajunYuanSDA that is very different and the foundation of your argument is flawed. Luther was not for a start the Theotokos. Likewise Luthers remains are still with us- you can go and see them. Frankly it does not matter if Mary was assumed into heaven or not... she might have been... it makes little difference to the substance of Christian doctrine...however, it is a problem when Roman Catholics insist that it is a doctrine that must be believed. As Luther said "There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know. And since the Holy Spirit has told us nothing about it, we can make of it no article of faith... It is enough to know that she lives in Christ." -Martin Luther (Sermon, Feast of the Assumption of Mary, 1522)
Nailed it, Gavin! Great critique.
Great video!
Thank you for this video. I hope you will be putting your book in audible!
(I watched to the end. Heart me!) As a protestant, what gets me about the Assumption is that it is a dogma in the Roman Catholic Church, which means that if you willfully reject it, then God will damn you (see the papal statements starting at 7:11). At most the importance of the Assumption could be an edifying thing ("Hey, did you know that Mary got assumed just like Enoch and Elijah? That must mean that her example of piety and faith is a good one to follow!"). There is nothing central or essential to Christianity in this doctrine. Denying it is not like denying the deity of Christ or His Resurrection so why should denying it carry such severe eternal consequences? Making this doctrine a dogma is an unnecessary and harsh imposition on the consciences of believers.
I agree we just need to keep our eyes on Christ he is the one the saves after all
That's why you come orthodox
WHY ? Power, Control, Money.
Well, most men on thrones
are familiar with and use
power, control & money, Right ?
From my research, Orthodox believe in the assumption of Mary as well. Is that not true? @ilovechrist914
This is great Gavin! Keep up the good work
watched. loved. shared. God bless.
I watched the video to the end!! this is such an important and well-thought out message, you helped me in my faith journey tremendously. Keep up the good work!
awesome video gavin
Excellent as usual
Gavin, thanks for your input on this topic. I am a seminary student at Talbot with a love of church history. I recently became interested in Protestant/Catholic dialogues, and you’ve provided insight as well as great reference material. Thank you!
Peace.
A love of history? It reminds me of a quote:
"To be steeped in Church history is to cease to be Protestant." - John Henry Cardinal Newman (convert from Anglicanism)
Please read Newman and then the Church Fathers ( Augustine, Aquinas, Bonaventure, Leo the Great, John Crysostom, Cyprian of Carthage, Hillary, Jerome (especially his response to Helvidius on this specific topic)
Blessings.
Gavin does not have his finger on the pulse of Chirch History. He simply cherry picks quotes that can be used for his agenda. I think he has read Ignatius' letters and he honestly stated that he wrestles with them because of how clearly they lay out a Church hierarchy, especially the role of the Bishop. Well, unfortunately the role of Bishop is very Biblical, the role of Elder is both very Jewish and very Biblical. Fortunately, I discovered that as a Catholic, I no longer have to struggle with the Church fathers.
Yes, Ignatius does talk a lot about church hierachy. But the words used for bishop and presbyter/ overseer are used interchangeably in the NT meaning that to refer to Bishop and Elder as seperate offices or roles as Ignatius does seems to misunderstand the text.
@@petergomez5174
Ignatius was a bishop of the Catholic Church, he was quite familiar with terms. He also had the benefit of being taught the New Testament by the Beloved Apostle.
@@daddydaycareky
Peace.
It is a beautiful thing, isn't it. We must never take it for granted, I have learned,or forget that it's by God's Grace.
Sometimes we don't have to know everything. We just have to know The One who does, and His Bride to whom He gave the authority to give us correct teaching.
Blessings.
58:45. Made it to the end :)
What a great video. I've engaged lately with people yielding to catholicism only on the basis of the assumption of and emotional devotion for Mary... paradoxically while rejecting the 'emotionalism' of the (Anglican) protestant liturgy (???). This is a great pointing out to a plethora of material to push back on the Marian problem. Thanks for your diligent work brother, you're a gem for protestantism.
Great vid!
Watched to the end of the video. Thank you Gavin for all you do.
I always make it to the end. I love your content
This is by far, the best video on CZcams!
Excellent video-made it through!
I absolutely love these thorough and compact video essays.
Always have and will appreciate your stuff Gavin. Praying your video educates and convinces!
@SouthMinister - - hi brother, perhaps you can answer, since Gavin is dodging the question - specifically in Revelation12:5 Are you stating that 'a male child, destined to rule ALL the Nations with an iron rod' is NOT Jesus, or that the Woman who gave birth to this son 'She gave birth to a son' is NOT Mary ??
@@garyr.8116 Israel "gave birth" to the Messiah, Do you believe Jesus is 'Son of David'?
@@YajunYuanSDA Even a 5 year old child can clearly see that Rev12:5 /1 is talking about MARY - Mat 11:25-27 Luke 10:21-22
Can you show where in scripture it states ' 'Israel gave birth to Jesus' ??
@@garyr.8116 "Before she was in labor, she delivered;
Before her pain came, *she gave birth to a boy.*
Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things?
Can a land be *born* in one day?
Can a nation be *given birth* all at once?
As soon *as Zion was in labor,* she also delivered her sons.
Shall I bring to *the point of birth* but not *give delivery?”* says the Lord.
“Or shall I who *gives delivery* shut the womb?” says your God.
“Be joyful with Jerusalem and rejoice for her, all you who love her;
Be exceedingly glad with her, all you who mourn over her,
So that you *may nurse* and be satisfied with her comforting breasts,
So that you may drink fully and be delighted with her bountiful breasts.”"
(Isaiah 66:7-11)
Of course I made it till the end!! It was such an interesting video, thanks Gavin! And thank you for your heart of humility that you approach these topics with!
Hi Gavin, I’m a Catholic covert. I really appreciate your gentleness and kindness when approaching these engagements on Catholic doctrine. I thoroughly enjoyed listening to you and I really admire the research and time that you put into your videos. It means a lot to me that you can be civilized in these debates and challenges without the anti-Catholic rhetoric. May God bless you Gavin
One thing to consider that Acts 15 was a Beit Din. A traditional Jewish assembly where the Av Beit Din "Father of the assembly", the 2nd in charge, brings an issue to the Nasi, the President of the assembly to make a final decision. Peter had the Keys (meaning 2nd in charge) to bring the issue to James to make the final decision. Only those with a Gentile lack of understanding of this Jewish assembly would falsely assume Peter was the leader or decision maker.
@@carltonhobbsyeah, I am pretty sure Peter was second in charge to Jesus, not James. However, James was Bishop of Jerusalem, so naturally he would have presided over the council.
Even if one considered that a "knock-down" argument against the Papacy, it ends up being a rather strong argument *for* Orthodoxy (and I have heard it often without the use of the Beit Din) @@jimmu2008
He can have "gentleness and kindness", but be aware that he is misleading a lot of people, people who seek the truth
@@joekey8464 I think you meant to start with "He cannot...."
Watched till the end, fully worth the 59 minutes! Thank you and God bless you Gavin for this video. Such a great example of charitable and loving way of doing apologetics.
Watched till the end. Quite enlightening
I watched to the end. Very helpful
made it to the end. thank you for all that you do! i appreciate all of your disclaimers & the way you always aim to speak the truth in love.
Amazing, and irenic overview. I was raised Catholic, became Evangelical (not protesting) through study, not anger, and all have lots of Roman Catholic friends. This shows it can be accomplished, discourse in truth and love.
Well done, sir.
Watched to the end!😊
Excellent dive into this topic.
Thank you Gavin for all that you do. As a protestant, you have helped me tremendously.
I would love to see a video on the perpetual virginity of Mary. Thank you again. Your videos encourage me greatly.
Gavin thinks it's possible
Jesus had 4 brothers and at least 2 sisters
@@heather602
The term "brother" in the Greek is used 4 different ways in the New Testament.
1- as a blood brother
2- as a brother in the Faith
3- as related to a larger group that holds the same beliefs or as members of a race
4- and as it applies to relatives (such as James the Just)
The latter term is what is meant by the passages from whence you derive your count.
For many reasons (that I would be happy to speak a/b if you wish to hear them) the Blessed Virgin Mary is Ever-Virgin.
@@JD-sj1zn Matthew 13:55-56
Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And are not all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”
@heather602
Peace
My comment is still true.
These are relatives but do not share the same parents.
By way of example, Abraham refers to Lot as his brother. Clearly, he wasn't. Lot was Abraham's nephew. This is the same sense used here.
Gavin, thanks for another excellent, rigorous, and irenic video!
Gavin,
Thank you for your work here.
I think it’s immensely worthwhile to revisit important topics like this to recap, update, expand, and keep the conversation going.
And your background in historical scholarship is much needed in these conversations.
I watched it all the way through and I thought this was well done. You did a thorough job with the information, and laying it out clearly with grace. I appreciated the way you handled Trent's concerns on arguments from silence and the need to debunk the authority of the Catholic church. There seems to be a strong tendency from our Catholic brothers to presume their position, and then argue from a place of authority on almost all doctrinal differences. You brought it down to the main issue at play, which is the view of the nature of the church. I've come across this so many times in my discussions with Catholic friends, and your way of addressing it was helpful. I'd even love to see a video comparing the specifics in the Catholic and the Protestant view of the nature of the church sometime. I think that would be most helpful in the continuing dialog. Thanks again!
👆 Right. If AUTHORITY is Wrong, then it’s already seriously flawed, isn’t it ?
Thank you pastor for concerning the Truth and not holding it back🙏
I think it's frankly ridiculous that I've heard Catholics try and dismiss this issue as "This alone can't make you a protestant, if you agree with every other dogma of the Catholic Church, you should just step over the tiber already since you're so close!!", when THEY are the ones who made this a dogma of the Faith that incurs the wrath of God if denied. This is absolutely enough to keep and make somebody a protestant.
I agree. I cannot be 99% in line with Rome and still be a Catholic, but I think many lay Catholics believe that that is true. If you walked into a Catholic Church today, you’d probably find only a small percentage who would fully submit themselves to Rome’s teachings.
It’s strange that many Catholics, in my experience, live like Protestants in their beliefs, where they assume this wide range of theology that Rome does not grant. That’s the beauty of being a Protestant, we certainly have nonnegotiables, yet I can still break bread with a man who believes in the Assumption.
I mean, if you agree with every other dogma of the CC, then you believe that pope cannot err when he teaches ex cathedra, which means that you have divine assurance of the assumption, contrary to any doubts your reason may have
The RC likes to innovate. If you agree with Rome on many issues but have trouble with some of the later innovations then you’re pretty close to being Orthodox. Lol
@@letrewiarz True, hence why when you begin to find a crack in any Roman dogma, the whole system falls apart. If the Assumption is false, papal infallibility is false. And if that is false, then you very quickly become Protestant, which is why so many cross the Tiber to come to Bible-believing churches
The Assumption of Mary being infallably defined as a dogma by the Pope invalidates papal infallibility. The Pope has yoked the Catholic Church to error by elevating this doctrine to a De Fide dogma of Christianity @@letrewiarz