Pentiment, Aesthetic, and "Immersive History"
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- čas přidán 27. 07. 2024
- (Note: there aren't any spoilers here unless you seek to go in completely blind)
Pentiment immediately hooked me conceptually not for just being a game with an interesting premise and aesthetic but for how it promised to use its aesthetic to clarify a moment in history.
**Given I want people to play the game for themselves, I'd appreciate if the comments were spoiler cautious if not downright spoiler-free.
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My Links:
/ krosencreutz
/ rosencreutz
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Special thanks to @Ludohistory
Recc videos:
For more Pentiment: • Medieval Historian Pla...
For something different: • Painting With All the ...
And to
fayrethee on Instagram
for the art of Ray McCoy aiming a crossbow at Brother Mathieu
fayrethee?...
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Links to sources mentioned:
Getty page
www.getty.edu/art/collection/...
Guardian interview
www.theguardian.com/games/202...
Announce
www.pcgamer.com/fallout-new-v...
KCD 2015 review:
www.polygon.com/features/2015...
Witcher 3 locations inspiration (Sorry it’s a Blog Source™, but it’s pretty visually apparent):
blog.inyourpocket.com/poland/...
KCD lecture
• Kingdom Come - přednáš...
KCD problems with historical accuracy, Rock Paper Shotgun:
www.rockpapershotgun.com/king...
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00:00 Intro
03:50 Pentiment: Characters and Presentation
11:07 "Immersive Realism" and Kingdom Come Deliverance
18:03 Historical Education in Historical Games
22:46 The Efficacy of Aesthetic
26:19 Outro - Hry
A fantastic game for a medievalist and everyone who had to study Latin.
Had to? *I Made a choice.*
Wish I could have. So much to learn (especially about our own English language)
I haven’t played this game, or read much into it, how deep is the Latin? Is it genuinely interesting? Or is it fancy dressing that people with Classics degrees will see through in a minute?
@@Nikelaos_Khristianos It pops up every now and then in small amounts. It's not particularly significant, but I enjoyed when it was there
The problem with setting a hussite protagonist in KCD is that the Power Fantasy of being the best medieval sword boy that the game is gearing you towards is very much the antithesis of how the hussites fought (and the main reason why they won almost every battle they engaged in): Heroic Individualism of knights and other murderous soldiers is easily beaten by teamwork, discipline and hiding behind a solid barricade. "press X to bonk a knight with a flail" might not be the riveting gameplay these people are after.
Crossbow pavise battle wagon gameplay
Left for dead type game where its just you and the gang on a wagon
it is for gameplay purposes but they do very much show the power of teamwork, and usually the power of that teamwork is used against you. when you fight more than one person you're almost doomed to die without good stats or cheesing the game.
as a art and art history major and a lifelong history nerd I loved Pentiment so much, and I very much appreciated your analysis. The stylistic details that they got so right spoke to me of their deliberate design and aesthetic choices. You touched on this when you pointed out the older monks being illustrated in a earlier style, and of course the wonderful horses.
I didn't catch it in your video, but the name of the game is another level of meaning. The American Heritage Dictionary defines the word "pentiment" as "An underlying image in a painting, especially one that has become visible when the top layer of paint has turned transparent with age, providing evidence of revision by the artist." I don't want to say too much because spoilers.. but even this can be seen in the different historical eras of the town and the story.
But yes, the art. To me, the art was
As far as the criticism of KCD's depiction of Hungarians and Cumans, this is the way I think about it. KCD is told from the perspective of the Czechs, and more specifically Henry. The way other cultures (particularly those outside of the HRE) are depicted is how your average Bohemian of the time would have thought of them. For example, the French are mentioned mostly by Hans, who places them on a pedestal as the pinnacle of chivalry, which (to my unresearched knowledge of history) is a realistic opinion of an idealistic young nobleman. As much as the unreliable narrator is often used as a crutch by poor writers (*cough* Elder Scrolls *cough*), in this case, I think it adds to the overall message and theme of the game. Though it would be much better if this was made clearer to the player.
Old comment i know, but i feel like unreliable narrator is a more accurate form of understanding. Nobody in real life has the whole picture. So in a way, i feel like its more honest for stories to use it.
"As much as the unreliable narrator is often used as a crutch by poor writers (*cough* Elder Scrolls *cough*)"
You don't know all that much about TES, clearly.
There are two problems with that framing, to my view. First, basically every player will already know a thing or two about the French. They will have some basis to evaluate statements about the French, and decide how accurate they are. Perhaps they will think to themselves "ah, yes, French military history is indeed fifteen centuries of glory! Tours! Yorktown! Austerlitz! Verdun! (We do not speak of Agincourt or Sedan, of course.) Clearly this Hans is a man of great knowledge." Or perhaps they will think to themselves "Huh, that's not how WE think of the French. Times sure have changed!" Or perhaps "What! That's not how the French are at all! Hans is an idiot!" Those are all viable takes on the questions of Frenchness and Hans's reliability. But no one is going to have their basic take on who the French even are established by Hans from KC:D.
I'm a history nerd, and even I had barely heard of the Cumans. Your responsibilities are different when you're introducing a people, versus when you're commenting on a culture your audience already knows. (Hungarians are somewhere in the middle: presumably most people have heard of them, but they don't have the profile of the French either, and KC:D is quite clearly pitched to an Anglophone audience who doesn't really know Central Europe very well.)
Second, there's a big difference between having Hans (who is kind of an idiot) say some things about the French without any French people showing up, versus having a lot of Czech characters say things about Cumans, and then having lots and lots of Cumans in the game behaving in ways that... at the very least fail to call those opinions into question. IIRC we don't ever really see any Cumans doing anything that would make you think "wait a second, maybe *only some* of them are like everybody said," let alone "clearly this is a complex culture made up of individuals, each with their own rich internal life."
So when you take a culture that you know your audience has little to no prior knowledge of, and you depict them not only being talked about but also appearing on screen and acting like Stormtroopers only with better aim and more rape, I don't think you get to say "ah well that's just an unreliable narrator," because 1. your audience has no way figure out the narrator isn't reliable, and 2. this isn't dialogue, it's cutscenes and gameplay, so there's no narrator.
This was an awesome video! I'd like to point out though that Jan Hus is NOT depicted as a hated figure. There are multiple preachers you can meet randomly throughout the game in big towns, preaching Jan Hus' ideas to them, and the people love it. During one of the quests, one of the most notable priests in the game asks you to give a sermon for him based on Hus' works. A lot of characters sing his praises, or at least say they're open to his ideas. Only those that work in more important roles in the Catholic Church (or churches, since there are two popes claiming legitimacy at the time of the game) are generally against Hus' ideas. Many characters in the game say things that are reminiscent of Hus' views of the church as well, including a few of the main characters. The rest of your criticisms of the KCD game/studio/founder definitely ring true though, I fully agree with them.
Huh. Maybe I went into it a bit oddly or just ran into the 'wrong' people, but I left with an impression they were more negative to him. I guess I'll have to give it a glance again.
@@Rosencreutzzz Jan's depiction is very character dependent and I would definitely say you ran into the haters and missed all his fans and the neutrals.
Aye. There is a whole quest line with a priest who gets drunk with you, and compels you to take his place for a sermon, and are encouraged to echo hus.
yea it's a majority who like hus (at least of those can read)
Even if there were 17 people claiming at the same time there are the rightful pope it would not create new "Churches" (at least not in Catholic and Orthodox understanding). What then was understood by a Church was community of all Christian believers. Only with Protestantism the notion that there can be more than one Church arose. Simplifying things, those who adhere to Nicene Creed (Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, some Protestants) believe there is "one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church", this Church may be internally broken but the dogma is there is only one Church. So no popes from Avignon Popes nor Hussite would declare they are creating a new Church, because there is only "one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church". Some from dogmatic point of view was is known as Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodox Church, Church of the East, Moravian Church (Hussite), Anglican Communion (this one is controversial) and Old Catholics are one Church and there is (extremely slim) possibility that they would put aside their differences and acknowledge each other as part of "one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church". So while Catholics and Orthodox try to reunite there no possibility of unification with churches like LDS or Southern Baptists (this thing on which all aforementioned fractions agree, that those who do not uphold Apostolic Succession are not part of the Church).
Just a little tangent from my side :D
I never would have noticed the old monks aren’t the same pseudo-woodcut.
In fact, I still don’t notice it. To me they just have some slightly less bold line work.
What an astonishing thing to do so subtly that nobody would know you did it.
The Ethiopian orthodox guy is much clearer.
It’s very cool.
Allways good to see a new upload from you
Yes
I loved pentiment, it clearly had so much love for the setting and history
I love history but am no expert and I enjoyed that they include a glossary. It also made me go off on google looking things up and I learned more history. Great game.
Finally got around to playing Pentiment because of the Steam sale and I do understand the Disco Elysium comparison, if only because Saint Grobian embodies the sicko mode that DE can summon, but also it's like 1.5% of the game so it's not really where I'd go with it.
I know this isn't the thrust of the video, but I just remembered this was mentioned and had to get it out of my brain.
Fascinating topic and smoothly-written script! You are so satisfying to listen to. As someone who doesnt have much of a background in history, nor reads/plays/watches all that much historical fiction, your perspectives are invaluable for expanding my understanding of games in areas that are entirely across the river from what Im most experienced with myself. Like, drawing the older characters worn like that is such a brilliant touch, and theres no way it would have clicked for me just how brilliant without your help. Gotta play pentiment for myself sometime soon :)
Just wanted to thank you for adding "no spoilers" to the title - I'd seen this one and mentally put it in the "aww, I can't watch this yet" list, because I haven't yet played Pentiment but really want to
I was torn on it cause it's kinda "lame" but also genuinely helpful and I know myself well enough to say I personally would avoid media about a game I planned to play, without some assurance, and I imagine many people are like that too.
Funnily enough, a subreddit I posted it on I included the (no spoilers) but then the mods went in and tagged the video spoilers.
S-tier video. This is such a criminally underrated channel.
Great video. I ended up taking away from Pentiment the uncertainty of historical narrative more than anything, that what becomes capital H History is the narrative that can best fit events as you see them; you never learn for certain who committed the murders of the first two chapters, and who you end up accusing is entirely dependent on your limited investigation and intentionally stifled scope, and even if you have a solid lead, you might end up condemning another anyway because you found them less sympathetic.
If youre going to do a video about Tyranny and Lawful Evil I'd love to hear your thoughts about Kyros' attempts to retroactively rewrite history via edicts.
Something to note for any German speakers is that the German translation of the game is excellent. Considering it takes place in southern Germany, there's a lot of creative choices the trabslators took in terms of specific vocabulary that sets it apart from the english version with regards to wordbuilding (without altering the story) and I highly recommend the German version if you can understand it.
Thank you for such a great and insightful video, I hope more people will watch it and play Pentiment. Would love to hear more of your thoughts on KCD!
I did (most of) my MA in early modern studies, and you nailed a lot of the things I love about Pentiment! Thanks for the video.
That was superbly done! I'd watch a 12 hour version!
Damn, great essay. It's rare to find stuff this thoughtful about video games. Subscribed.
Great video about one of my favorite games from last year!
it's a really good game and I've vowed that instead of playing it again, I'm just gonna sit annoyingly next to friends while they experience it the first time, and just...gently nudge them towards a different Andreas (though I wouldn't nudge them towards different conclusions, that's too far)
I loved Pentiment, and I'm super excited to see your video on Tyranny! It's a very underappreciated game
Pentiment ♡
Excellent video! I’ve been meaning to try Pentiment and this analysis is yet another reason to.
On a completely different topic, do you think you will ever cover the political sim game Suzerain? It’s a fictional setting, but very heavily based on the real-life histories and politics of small countries during the Cold War.
Amazing video... I would really like to play this now
really hope the low view count on this video doesnt interfere with future videos. Its a great work
My personal favorite game of 2022. Would highly recommend to fans of history, even if you aren’t that acquainted with the time period, like I was
A quick note on social mobility in KCD; Henry actually doesn't have much. He achieves the rank of bailiff in the DLC, which, while prestigious by commoners standards, is probably not considered socially higher than his father's career before he moved to Skalitz. A master blacksmith who, according to the wiki, was familiar with the emperor is probably about as socially significant a commoner can be, short of rich merchants. Henry is arguably lower in standing than his father was, and likely is only given what attention he is due to his father's reputation.
Pentiment is without a doubt one of my favorite games, but it’s so hard to articulate why. Since first playing it a year ago, I have yet to get a single friend to try it, sigh.
New rosencreutz video : )
Pentiment, map painting simulators, KotoR, history, languages; your steam library and tastes so closely align with mine that it's hilarious. I will enjoy binging your channel.
It was a fantastic game for someone who enjoys history, reading, and Obsidian
Haven’t finished it but started it and loved it. Going to start all over soon to finish it!
shit... I guess I have to play that game now.
I thought it was just the art style as a "oh look how quirky and cool it looks" but it actually being important to the narrative too?
that hits the right scratch :D
Just wanted to add that the Early to Mid 16th century is still considered part of the Middle Ages in parts of Europe, especially my home of Sweden.
Ty for updating the title to say no spoilers, I was partway through the game when you released the video and didn’t want to watch because I was afraid of spoilers.
Also nice to see a fellow passionate nested tooltip enjoyer. Honestly really happy that devs are pushing them more lately, it’s such a great feature
Hyped for this since ive never heard of this game..
Great video, looks like I'll be buying pentiment lol
Thank you.
Also the difficulty with that step at 16:32 was hilariously distracting
Me: this game does a decent job with its immersion"
the game: "you cannot lift your knees"
I VERY MUCH want to - most interesting game to me since Darkwood ?
but, it's not on GOG for some STUPID reason
I enjoyed the video however I must defend the perspective used in kingdom come in terms of cumans and hungarians. I don't disagree it is an imperfect and truly oversimplified depiction. However i think when we engage within the story being told we can come to understand the oversimplification. To start henry saw his family, friends, and village all be annihilated by foreign mercenaries who speak a language he doesn't know and they are wearing garb he's never seen. So in a state of panic where he runs away from them to get help and then the series of events that leads him learning more about them from other characters, henry creates an amalgam image of the cumans. So from henry's perspective (the player) there is no other side to see, these are demons to him. I must reread the documentation supplied within kingdom come about the cumans as that may clear up understanding on the perspective warhorse is presenting. Regardless, nice vid
I think the monistary part of kcd should have been mentioned.
Why can't I double like this video because of Civilopedia minirant? :O
Thanks for compelling me to buy pentiment. Also for not hating on kcd. I found it scratched an itch for me via “immersion” while knowing well that it wasn’t exactly “true”. Your video here made me realize that much of the ignorance or variation comes from scope. You are in one small county and surrounded by people who, like you; are mostly ignorant to what’s actually happening in the world. In a way, it allows for the fantasy of its characters and history. It’s an interesting idea to me.
Anyone know the song from 13:00?
ok but the pillars of the earth game is great tho
CZcams keeps hiding your new videos from me and I absolutely hate it!
tag yourself im grinding wheat
Ngl hearing it described it always sounds really boring. Most comments make it sounds like school. But I'll prob give it a try
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I don't know, really. Kingdom Come Deliverance... You talk about Potions but that's not the only gameplay element that kept pulling me out. On one side, it claims realism and on the other, it has everything that breaks realism (while claiming it's realistic). The game refuses to acknowledge it's a game, yet has every facet of a game, and uses historicity to push a narrative.
As you said, depiction of cumans and hungarians is one thing, be there's also the "women never ever wear armor even when they are trying to survive a raid, they would never dear just put some chainmail !§§!!! ITS HISTORICAL". It could have been because you wouldn't rob dead people but that doesn't bother the main protagonist because suddenly, it's a game, it's ok to wear the chainmail of a man you just killed in cold blood... but only if you're a male.
You can't shoot an arrow straight because realism you need bracers and pulling the arrow string last only half a second before your start wobbling, and you have no crosshair, because "realism", yet you have "perfect parries" and combo attacks. You can steal millions from the smith in gold, yet stealing an apple from someone's pocket would warrant a guard searching you, and finding the apple ? He knows it's stolen.
All of those are gameplay decisions, and the fact that you don't see a single person of color or how women can't wear armor are also gameplay decisions, that they try to hide behind realism and historicity. A man having social mobility is ok but a woman ? In my medieval game ? Learning latin in 23 seconds and hunting rabbits with a two handed sword in platemail is ok, but having a single non white npc ?
Oh yeah, for sure. The game has a lot more problems than I went into, but they, frankly, deserve their own dedicated look. I wanted the video to mostly be about Pentiment and its good than about KCD and where it falls apart.
such a fascinating video!!
also, i completely get what you mean when you said kcd has a cuman and hungarian bias. when i played that game, the cumans were extremely demonized to the point of almost dehumanization
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I'd say it was to that point with the cumans honestly. Idk about the Hungarian part, you only really meet 2 hungarians and its the main invading noble and his second-hand man, and any other mentions of Hungarians mainly comes from the lords you work for. Was there more stuff about hungarians specifically, and not just cumans?
yea i mean it's about perspective. if foreign mercenaries raided, pillaged your village, killed your parents, killed your girlfriend, etc then you would likely see these people, who both don't speak your language and don't dress like you, as demons in a way. later in the game the protagonist (while still disliking them) does get away from the mystical parts of the cumsns and hungarians. I think for a story based game where internal perspective is important they did as good as they could while being genuine to real emotions and reactions.