Excellent video LT! I leaked the SL7 recall before Specialized made it public. An employee gave it to me as he knew I had the reach and would not let it sit. I called it even before the recall was official as I saw it on my own SL7 S-Works. TOTAL DESIGN FAIL!
Headset routed internal cables are going to be a nightmare in a few years as the bikes get used and the brake hoses and other routing specific headset parts keep rubbing the insides of the bike or the steerer tube. Inspecting for wear might mean disassembly of the bike and not many are willing to do that so it's essentially a ticking time bomb. Looks great on the outside, but not much thought or design has been given to what happens on the inside.
Always top notch, reliable, factual information without drama. We should all be happy to have a true subject matter expert here talking science and engineering without sensationalizing it.
It’s just sad in which direction the industry is going. I’m happy with my 10yo externaly routed frame, rim brakes with 0 problems and easy maintenance. Can’t imagine buying anything high end atm. I really hope something changes..
When you say external, is it actually external? (ie. nothing enters the frame at any point) Because apparently, there are still people who still don't know how to classify routing configurations, especially 2020s cyclists. Even some bike shop staff members don't know how.
@@discbrakefanmy giant defy has internal cables that enter through the head/down tubes. I chose it over Merida and Trek equivalent frames for that reason.
Whenever I buy a stem I always take the time to lightly round off the inside edges of the stem that contact the steerer. A fine round file, then sand, and polished with wet and dry. Once it's mounted and the top cap is on you don't see the raw alu. I know it sounds overkill, and will void stem warranty, but have you seen how sharp some of the insideedges are on stems? It should be standard manufacturing to just countersink a small 1mm bevel inside the top and bottom of the stem. But, manufacturing costs I guess.
What you did is anything but overkill, I say it's the right thing to do. I myself do sand the edges as well if they're deemed too sharp. Speaking of seemingly overkill, want to know one of the seemingly "extra" things I did on a new boxed bike? Headset assembly regreasing, because there was barely any grease out-of-the-box. The one that called me out is a store manager, who does work on bikes too, who worked longer than I did. However, when it comes to technical knowledge, on some of them, I dare say, he's got nothing on me.
It amazes me how the bicycle industry places aesthetics over safety. For a professional, although they use a bike far more intensely, they have several bikes in a season. For Joe Public, they will use the same bike for many years and this design probably presents a greater risk. it seems rather unnecessary. Thank you for another excellent insight.
That's pretty scary. Thank you Raoul. It's great to see you back. Hope your office fix is almost finished. It's been quite a while. It must feel like forever for you.
You should take a look at the Deda upper bearing support. Its very tall and the "c" shape wraps a long way around. Its a chamfered corner, and its plastic. Really nice system.
Good you here, I wondered about that, Trek got one that sort of goes all the way around but stays seated if tighten headset, was wondering about Deda as looking to grab their headset to get bits I need, get Enduro stainless bearings and at moment superbox, rest of bearings be Enduro XD 15 I'm going for
I have the Deda upper bearing support. But the microspacers that came from Deda is metal. Would microspacers in plastic work? Or are Dedas microspacers ”fine”?
Raoul this video will save lives 👍 👏. Even where large sections of the industry pretend ‘ nothing to see here’. Sharp metal edges, mixed with carbon fibre, moving parts how many times have we seen this before ?
It's INSANE that the bike industry is making these ticking time bombs that are totally hidden from view. You can't even see the proverbial timer! There WILL be consequences, which will entail injuries, maimings & fatalities that will then lead to lawsuits and product recalls. Wow, totally unacceptable that we're watching an industry make not only disposable, yet very expensive products, but also deathtraps just waiting for the day they fail catastrophically.
Excellent video Raoul, I've worked on a bike with this same setup and it is terrible especially if x4 cables are routed through the headset, I.e. mechanical gear shifting. The bike was a newer Dolan Ares, so if anyone watching this has one of these bikes, follow the advise of Raoul and get your steerer checked regularly.
I was an avid bicycle rider when I was younger and rode steel frame bikes. The lure of the lighter the better has drawn elite riders and those who emulate them to carbon fiber bicycles and components and sleek hidden control cable routing. The bikes are beautiful and the engineering design concepts are clever. But I fear carbon fiber is being used in ways that risk some of its shortcomings and vulnerabilities. Carbon fiber bikes will not have the durability or longevity of steel bikes. Nor have they completely rendered the steel bike frame obsolete.
Internal cabling was one of the reasons I left the Industry 6 years ago. I own only externally routed bikes for their functionality and ease of servicing. I can see many injuries down the line as these ‘technologically advanced’ bikes become degraded over time.
Furthermore the aerodynamic advantage that the industry is claiming is not credible if it was true riders on Shimano STI leavers could not compete with riders with Campa Ergopower where cables were under the handlebar tape
Great video, you explained the issues in a simple easy to understand way. You are fighting a losing battle trying to educate ppl. The consumer just wants the pros ride. It’s up to the bike shop mechanic to then try and explain what used to be a simple thing now takes triple the time. In many cases, you can’t drop the fork enough to inspect the area that gets effected.
Yep. I never ever buy road bike anymore. Anything with internal rout cable is a big nono for me. As someone with a bit engineering background, i always have my gut back me up whenever i purchased something.
I remember 50 yrs ago when I was a cycling youngster with steel forks and steerer, it was common practice (UK) amongst the club members to fit a tight wooden dowel down inside the steerer and past the fork crown 'just in case', maybe it would be a good idea today as well.
Thanks for bringing up this topic and telling us in words a layman can understand. Came across your channel when I was building up a gravel bike and was dealing with a carbon fork. And this topic about internal cables of course ... brings us to a problem we often wouldn't think of. So thanks for sharing, and best wishes from Switzerland.
The industry shills (GCN,Dave Arthur etc) have been pushing integrated cockpits hard and the consumer is buying the Koolaid. Not only are there safety issues as Luescher has highlighted but bike fit adjustment becomes an expensive nightmare. I see a day of pushback coming.
I have a tad bit more respect for GCN than Dave Arthur. GCN doesn't hide the fact that they are a trade publication and receive money to showcase they product, it's easy to watch them as entertainment only. Meanwhile, David Arthur tries to pass himself off as an independent outlet that objectively "reviews" the product but is in fact one of the most blatant shills on CZcams. He doesn't even study the product himself carefully, just repeats and rephrases what the companies want to bombard the customers with.
So glad I've stuck with my rim brake TCR 🤣 If you need to drop the fork to check and have hydro discs it will usually mean having to bleed the brakes aswel as there isn't enough slack in the cable to drop the fork. WHAT A FAFF..... 😂😂😂😂
This is scary stuff. I have an “old” Canyon Aeroad with externally routed cables, which may look less hip but geez, it makes me glad I ride externally routes bikes! Yikes! 😬Rhyme not intended! Thanks for your engineering diligence mate ❤️
You're still on internal routing, just that the more accurate term now would be "regular internal routing" since only the steerer tube passes through the headset assembly. If your shift and brake lines enter the frame at any point, you're not on external routing.
I made the decision early on when making CF bikes for the family to route all the cables externally. I could have cut holes, 3d printed opening grommets, all that, but I decided, no thanks. I don't want extra holes in the tubes -- and internal routing makes recabling a PITA. Sure the bikes look a mess (as old bikes did) but internal routing to me was just a hassle with too many potential pitfalls. Running it through the head tube and using a part donut to bodge it seems like the height of stupidity. What really puzzles me is that it'd be very simple to route those cables next to the headtube in a separate tubeset(s) incorporated just to the side of the real headtube, then run them into the usual holes in the top or downtubes. It'd look pretty good and avoid all that nonsense. But what do we expect from the industry that brought us xx,000 misaligned, squeaking press-fit BBs? I did 60 miles on a trail today and saw half a dozen bikes that cost $5k and up and all of which sounded like chitty chitty bang bang next to my DIY bike.
That they don't see this as a HUGE design flaw is mind-boggling. All that leverage acting on the fork and bearing, yet they leave 33% of it unsupported, AND with a nice sharp edge to gouge into the carbon? It would be a questionable design if the steerer tube were steel, but it being carbon makes them derelict!
If there was more material after the diameter it would be better, but manufacturers are making the cutouts excessively large to make cable routing easier.
Seems like the cycling industry needs a safety standard that it must adhere to before items can be sold. However this will increase prices even further in an already inflated market?
Absolut brilliant. Thanks for your video! Starting my bachelor thesis in mechanical engineering on carbon fork design. Hope I'll help developing carbon forks some day.
I'll concede that routing cables straight through top tubes, down tubes, and chainstays might keep them cleaner without unnecessary rub, but routing through steerers and headsets is asking for trouble.
Dear Raoul, Excellent video! I appreciate the attention you pay to ride safety, over the flim-flam and shiny object technical solutions the bike brands put out there, for e.g. the SL7 steerer issues and the Cannondale head tube issues to accomodate internal cables. I would really appreciate your opinion on Canondale's latest solution for hiding cables in the head tube as seen on the 2023 SuperSix, the triangular shaped steerer tube. I am attracted to this bike but worry "How this can possibly be a good idea?" Clamping down on a triangular member? The distribution of stresses on a triangle shape steerer as opposed to a round tube?
Two wedges are supplied to fill up the spaces to allow the stem to clamp a cylindrical structure instead of just the steerer tube with a pizza slice-shaped cross-section.
I have only seen photos of the new Cannondale design, so can't really comment, except for saying that shaped steerers are more complex to make than round steerers and I still see problems with the round ones.
I think the fundamental design of the bicycle was perfected about 25 years ago. Once the gear levers were incorporated with the brakes, we were at a high point. Internal cable routing and "aero" frames are the victory of style over substance.
sorry pal, but your wrong on that "style over substance" bit- aerodynamics are as noticeable as a baggy jersey over a fitting one on a windy day- it all adds up. Cliches like "steel is real" may sound cool to say- but no matter if you close your eyes while repeating your mantra doesnt make it so. There is substance to our advances- whether or not you choose to invest in that substance is your personal choice- but I dont think it is worth discarding over marketing slogans. Mr Teknik is providing us with some important information regarding certain design choices. Every system is going to have it's weaknesses and it's strengths. In chess any opening move can lead to victory- it is a matter of making the right choices in the right instances that will lead to a successful outcome.
A very clear demonstration. Manufacturers should really hire you and pay your body weight in gold, they’d still save money on recalls and reputational damage.
Instead, the lawyers will hire him as an expert witness in tort cases well after the fact. He'll make money providing his expertise - but after the owner has suffered serious loss.
@dudeonbike800 I have done expert witness cases, unfortunately mostly they get settled out of court so nothing changes. I would prefer to not see people get hurt in the first place.
It looks like some fairly basic engineering principles weren’t followed here, and I suspect not too many engineers were involved in the design and manufacture. Given the retail price of some of these frames, that’s really below expectations in my opinion, particularly given the critical nature of the components. I’ve previously used Park Tool super patches for contact points to prevent wear. The adhesive is strong and the compliant nature seems to prevent wear and damage due cable rub
Great, the consumer will have to pay $400 to have brake lines undone, reattached and then refilled and bled with new brake fluid, among other maintenance every single year. All to check on a defective design from the factory. On an annual basis. My foot this will happen! People can't even service the various other mundane components on their bikes, much less a "mission critical" component with dire consequences for failure to monitor. Bleeding brakes and suspension service is ALWAYS put off until WAY past the recommended service interval.
Very interesting video. I have a locally built bike brand with almost identical setup. I now have an indent in the steerer tube from that metal horse show piece meaning I can no longer secure the headset and I have around 3-5mm of play. The manufacturer has said I need the steerer tube repairing; this just seems like a sticking plaster and not sure how it will prevent this happening again in the future!?
It seems that it is relatively easy with CF to just route the cable in a separate chamber outside of the bearing and maintain the usual interface with the steerer tube, without any sharp points. What could be done is to make an oval headtube and have the hoses and wires (no mechanical) go inside this channel which would be in front or behind the bearing. Another strategy would be to have the hose in a coil or a loop so that it can sit on the outside or above the bearing. The industry doesn't seem to have thought about how hydraulic hoses may be positioned differently from sheathed cables.
Behind-bearing internal routing exists. Some examples include the Giant Propel Advanced (last two generations from the current one) and early-to-mid-2010s Cervélo S5 (ie. last S5 generation with rim brakes). As for ahead-bearing internal routing, this is what Cannondale was trying to achieve with their third-generation SuperSix EVO, but it necessitated the need for a steer stop to limit its steering range so that the front hydraulic hose doesn't get crushed. However, this workaround is a big failure as it led to many cracked head tubes from various causes (steering too hard, crash-induced steering bumps, etc.). This made the third-generation SuperSix EVO one of my most notorious road bikes, a model I will never recommend anyone to buy. For now, I don't think there's a compromise-free solution. You can have a structurally sound steerer tube support system, you can route shift and brake lines very cleanly, but you can't have both.
Seems we’ve created a problem that needs a solution. My rim brake bike is much less hassle. (I have both - I’m not anti disc) but it’s just easier and so much cheaper.
The fit on that metal piece looks quite loose. I can imagine that flex under heavy breaking would cause so issues with it digging into the carbon steerer…
Factor has solved the top bearing issue with a deeper oversized bearing compression ring, and revised shape on the steerer to give a much greater surface area. Headsets on those are rock solid. #ostrovam
It's funny how Specialized, Cannondale and Cervelo claim they are leaving pressfit bb behind and going back to threaded, due to practicality and ease of maintainance.... And then they switch to fully integrated cable routing.
When Specialized did this to their Epic World Cup, I disliked it. Between this and the Trek Supercaliber, I'd take the latter despite preferring BSA-threaded for MTBs.
Deda has all parts made of plastic except the main top ring. I question all designs with internal cable routing, but as consumers we have 90% of brandswith internal routing, it is a headache when you want to replace cables or change handlebar. It has nothing to to with "aero" which has not marketing B...
Excellent as usual, Raoul. The sad thing is how many disc braked bike owners are going to dismantle their bikes to check the steerer? It we're lucky, they will do it when the headset bearings wear out. And that will be too late for many>((
I had a steerer tube fail in 1991. On Rt 100 in Wardsboro, VT. The steel tube cracked from back to front. The only thing connecting my wheel and fork to my frame was the brake cable. I'm overdue for a squirrel in my front wheel 😣
Thanks for sharing your experience, some people think that steel never fails, however it is not so much the material but the design and production that matters.
I think it would be better if digital shifters were wireless. Then its 2 less cables to worry about. A complete wireless data transfer solution with encryption is like $2 these days, which is probably less than what the cables cost.
The sad part about this is that many manufacturers are using this same "off the shelf" spacer/reducer system. Could a fix be to somehow machine the centre bore of the spacer out a a few mm to increase the diameter and insert some kind of aluminium sleeve over the steerer tube to spread the load?
They took a known good design, removed a bunch of material, and then expected what? Terrible design. Shows this manufacturer does no significant impact or accelerated wear testing as expected. Cable rub would also be a concern but less so for the carbon, and more that your hydraulic brakes might fail if the hose eventually abrades through.
Sadly now,’what the market wants’translates as ‘ how the industry is pushing forward’. In our profit over people Global Corporations complete takeover in every area of our lives( most disturbingly in food and Big Pharma ). We need to be wise in our choices and not just follow the dictates.....let’s face it,when I was road racing in the 1970’s and out riding on club rides we would average 20 mph. Now on our Carbon Aero Bikes,Disc wheels,7kg race bikes...club rides average around 20 mph!!! So whilst for elite riders ,modern tech and marginal gains mean something. For EVERYONE else ??? Oh and did I mention the obscene cost of top end Carbon bikes,with their Carbon in house wheels,bar and stem combo’s....made in China.
That is simply a terrible design. As an engineer, I would never consider putting my name, or the name of the company I work for, on something so dangerous. They should be forced to hang a red tag on the stem outlining the hours between periodic inspections that should be performed to make that implementation safe. But it probably looks good. Don’t judge the engine based on paint job!
Its a simple thing to do by an industry that unable to do it. Simple. That is the worst system i have ever seen, not even a full compression ring?! This was not designed by and engineer. If it was they should be dismissed immediately.
Been thinking about getting rid of my Allez Sprint due to a constant creaking from the headset. Cleaned and greased the headset but still creaks when compressed. Apart of me fears it is the steerer and I do not want to die while riding. I am a professional mechanic so I’m quite familiar with these systems but I too am not the biggest fan. My next bike doesn’t have internal routing in the front end.
@@zygmuntthecacaokakistocrat6589 what, you think wrenches are making high tech money? Some of 'em have to make rent and eat, ya know - on a pittance. Pro deals or not, it ain't all champagne & roses!
All my cables/hydraulics are external, even the dropper seat post (Thompson Elite which is now out of production due to fashion trend) and would not have it any other way. I service/build my bikes and do not want to be wasting time threading cables through tubes with magnets etc just to be trendy. Form follows function. External or wireless and nothing in between lol.
Raoul, i would have thought a recall on manufacturers is mandated because this is clearly a design flaw and it is a safety issue. Consumer Law in Australia should protect us from this because a product has to be of reasonable life span of approximately 10 years. Interesting to see if Merida’s and or Trek’s system is well designed?
"Less than ideal"--to say the least! As a mechanic I've always hated the idea of headset-routed cables, so I can't deny this video gives me some schadenfreude.
A giant TCR is one of those bikes that doesn't have internal cabling. Or someone has been creative themselves? But then you shouldn't complain and you take the risk yourself. But I recently bought a new TCR myself and it has no internal cabling. That's also the reason I bought it instead of the new cannondale supersix.
@@HippiehansieYou still have internal routing, if your shift and brake lines enter your frame and fork at any point, it's classified as internal routing. Only in this era onwards, I call it regular internal routing. External routing is for 20th-century road bikes, where shift and brake lines do not enter the frame at any point, which is not the case for your TCR Advanced.
There are a couple of carbon wizards like this guy. The big brands should take them aboard when designing new bikes. It's dangerous if you see what's happening right now. You pay 5000-10.000 for a bike and the customer is buying a product that isnt well designed. Example: old cannondale supersix with the pin stopper. Like, wth. Internal cables: I like the look. But if specialized, cannondale or any other big brand takes someone like this guy on the team they are not only gonna make more saver bikes, but also have the edge over the competition. Just saying...
Ironically, a fork design from 2008 or so with an Al steerer in CF legs would have fared a lot better than this full CF fork. The full CF fork is almost certainly cheaper to make (apart from the more expensive tool), so we’re never going back to aluminum steerer tubes.
Carbon fiber for bike frames is a lost cause. They are producing landfill that kills people with a myriad of failure points and failure modes hidden from the user. The bike industry is criminally negligent.
It's not worth it. Can't you just love riding your bike without going silly. Good, reliable, home serviceable equipment is becoming a thing of the past.
Unfortunately, that's not the case for many riders. All they care about is the looks. I currently have two new framesets (one of them is now built up as a bike from my old frameset), none of which run integrated internal routing. These two models I got actually still look pretty nice.
If you have the time and you think you could anything, I am extremely curious to hear your take on that carbon fiber sub implosion. I know you're not a submarine expert, but there is video of that cylinder being wound and the properties of carbon fiber composite under compression-- cyclical compression loading and unloading-- I would think your opinion would be worth my viewing time.
My bike actually had its compression ring revised to a version that is over 1cm high and uses a 2 piece design to give a really snug interface between the bearing and steerer. They also added in a better system for routing the cables. However, this part revision was not communicated until my first unit had etched my steerer. Honestly the manufacturers need to be far more transparent with these designs and need to make the parts/technical drawings way more available.
@@yonglingng5640 yeah it’s a very nice design (I’m and ME student) they basically have built a nice flexible inner ring that’s just a thin walled 1.5cm deep split ring and then had a 1.3cm deep piece that interfaces between the split ring and bearing and that is a rigid part with slots to route the cables through which keeps them nicely away from the steerer
@@EllisPedersenI'm looking at the Exceed's user manual now, turns out it's pretty similar to the Tarmac SL7's revised compression ring + shim. Now I fully realised the shim is to prevent the shift and brake lines from touching the steerer tube, I can't believe I never realised this! 🤦♂️
So the cables can RUB ON THE CARBON? Either way you get brake hoses that wear away and LEAK and or you get carbon wearing thin and SNAPPING at some point. THERE IS ZERO LOGIC IN HIDING HYDRO CABLES INSIDE THE STEERER. IYKYK.
So it's rather problematic headset design for internal routing than cableing itself... On that note, how much damage caused by the cable/hydraulic housing rubbing did you notice?
I think the point is that there isn't a good system out there, plus any system that allows the cables to directly contact the steerer will result in abrasion, just look at the damage external cables do rubbing on the outside of the frame over time.
@@ohshitnotanotherknob yes, abrasion occurs, but at what rate - that's the question. I've seen good solutions at expos, but they utilize oversized top bearing and haven't seen them on production models yet
I still do not understand... if the design has to be full custom and proprietary from the frame to the cockpit (which is already incredibly stupid) why not at least twist entirely the compression mechanism and place it underneath the fork instead of above? That way the cables could run through a monocoque handlebar-stem-steering tube piece, coming out in a pre-made hole between the two bearings. and the two fork blades would be connected to the steering tube with a lateral torque system similar to the one of the current stems/cockpits. Is there anything that speaks against this solution?
Question... I know you aren't an expert in submarines, but as an expert in carbon fiber, what are your thoughts on the Titan incident and the use of carbon in such applications?
Raoul I had a dream last night that you were driving me in an airport transport cart to a soccer game but I was supposed to be on a flight. wild dream.
Thank you for your expertise and honesty around this topic. Our industry loves to push “lighter stiffer faster more aero” but never “more safe”
or "longer lasting", or "more affordable", or "easier to service"...
@@lekobiashvili945 everyday we make jokes about service because it’s like some many things get made with 0 attention to having them serviced
@@Slow.SmoothThis is why almost no 2020s road bike gets a green light from me.
@@yonglingng5640 same for me
@@lekobiashvili945 or quality!
Excellent video LT!
I leaked the SL7 recall before Specialized made it public. An employee gave it to me as he knew I had the reach and would not let it sit.
I called it even before the recall was official as I saw it on my own SL7 S-Works.
TOTAL DESIGN FAIL!
Headset routed internal cables are going to be a nightmare in a few years as the bikes get used and the brake hoses and other routing specific headset parts keep rubbing the insides of the bike or the steerer tube.
Inspecting for wear might mean disassembly of the bike and not many are willing to do that so it's essentially a ticking time bomb.
Looks great on the outside, but not much thought or design has been given to what happens on the inside.
It's already a nightmare since 2020/2021. This is why I say those who love integrated internal routing are those who've never worked on bikes before.
Why do the buy this bullshit and why do they pay thousands 😮
@@rainerkunz791 Because many people only care about the aesthetics, giving little to no thought about everything else and I hate such people.
It’s gonna take 10 years to sort out the right design
Always top notch, reliable, factual information without drama. We should all be happy to have a true subject matter expert here talking science and engineering without sensationalizing it.
It’s just sad in which direction the industry is going. I’m happy with my 10yo externaly routed frame, rim brakes with 0 problems and easy maintenance. Can’t imagine buying anything high end atm. I really hope something changes..
When you say external, is it actually external? (ie. nothing enters the frame at any point) Because apparently, there are still people who still don't know how to classify routing configurations, especially 2020s cyclists. Even some bike shop staff members don't know how.
@@yonglingng5640yes, everything outside of the frame
Just to be clear, this particular design isn’t replicated across all integrated cable frames.
@@aljgrg3736 Good, at least you know what you have.
@@discbrakefanmy giant defy has internal cables that enter through the head/down tubes. I chose it over Merida and Trek equivalent frames for that reason.
Whenever I buy a stem I always take the time to lightly round off the inside edges of the stem that contact the steerer. A fine round file, then sand, and polished with wet and dry. Once it's mounted and the top cap is on you don't see the raw alu. I know it sounds overkill, and will void stem warranty, but have you seen how sharp some of the insideedges are on stems? It should be standard manufacturing to just countersink a small 1mm bevel inside the top and bottom of the stem. But, manufacturing costs I guess.
What you did is anything but overkill, I say it's the right thing to do. I myself do sand the edges as well if they're deemed too sharp.
Speaking of seemingly overkill, want to know one of the seemingly "extra" things I did on a new boxed bike? Headset assembly regreasing, because there was barely any grease out-of-the-box. The one that called me out is a store manager, who does work on bikes too, who worked longer than I did.
However, when it comes to technical knowledge, on some of them, I dare say, he's got nothing on me.
Not overkill - I do the same thing if the edges are sharp.
same here
It amazes me how the bicycle industry places aesthetics over safety. For a professional, although they use a bike far more intensely, they have several bikes in a season. For Joe Public, they will use the same bike for many years and this design probably presents a greater risk. it seems rather unnecessary.
Thank you for another excellent insight.
Spot on.
Thank you for this video and your usual honesty. This channel deserves a much bigger audience and recognition.
That's pretty scary. Thank you Raoul. It's great to see you back. Hope your office fix is almost finished. It's been quite a while. It must feel like forever for you.
You should take a look at the Deda upper bearing support. Its very tall and the "c" shape wraps a long way around. Its a chamfered corner, and its plastic. Really nice system.
Someone at Deda is paying attention! They also have a 70mm steerer plug that is light and designed well for 20AUD.
Good you here, I wondered about that, Trek got one that sort of goes all the way around but stays seated if tighten headset, was wondering about Deda as looking to grab their headset to get bits I need, get Enduro stainless bearings and at moment superbox, rest of bearings be Enduro XD 15 I'm going for
I have the Deda upper bearing support. But the microspacers that came from Deda is metal.
Would microspacers in plastic work? Or are Dedas microspacers ”fine”?
Raoul this video will save lives 👍 👏. Even where large sections of the industry pretend ‘ nothing to see here’. Sharp metal edges, mixed with carbon fibre, moving parts how many times have we seen this before ?
This guy gives such good detailed explanation, that is why he is the best.
'Next thing to hit the ground is your face', 😂 internal cable routing marketing slogan, great vid!
It's INSANE that the bike industry is making these ticking time bombs that are totally hidden from view. You can't even see the proverbial timer! There WILL be consequences, which will entail injuries, maimings & fatalities that will then lead to lawsuits and product recalls.
Wow, totally unacceptable that we're watching an industry make not only disposable, yet very expensive products, but also deathtraps just waiting for the day they fail catastrophically.
Not a fan of that design myself. I have an Emonda and it seems ok but i file away and edges to reduce pressure points on the steerer.
Excellent video Raoul, I've worked on a bike with this same setup and it is terrible especially if x4 cables are routed through the headset, I.e. mechanical gear shifting.
The bike was a newer Dolan Ares, so if anyone watching this has one of these bikes, follow the advise of Raoul and get your steerer checked regularly.
I was an avid bicycle rider when I was younger and rode steel frame bikes. The lure of the lighter the better has drawn elite riders and those who emulate them to carbon fiber bicycles and components and sleek hidden control cable routing. The bikes are beautiful and the engineering design concepts are clever. But I fear carbon fiber is being used in ways that risk some of its shortcomings and vulnerabilities. Carbon fiber bikes will not have the durability or longevity of steel bikes. Nor have they completely rendered the steel bike frame obsolete.
Internal cabling was one of the reasons I left the Industry 6 years ago. I own only externally routed bikes for their functionality and ease of servicing. I can see many injuries down the line as these ‘technologically advanced’ bikes become degraded over time.
Furthermore the aerodynamic advantage that the industry is claiming is not credible if it was true riders on Shimano STI leavers could not compete with riders with Campa Ergopower where cables were under the handlebar tape
@@danielhertercasagrande1686😂❤
A bit ott 😂😂😂
My Izalco Max 2018 has external exposed routing. Now that's functionality
Shift routing, or brake routing?
Great video, you explained the issues in a simple easy to understand way.
You are fighting a losing battle trying to educate ppl.
The consumer just wants the pros ride. It’s up to the bike shop mechanic to then try and explain what used to be a simple thing now takes triple the time.
In many cases, you can’t drop the fork enough to inspect the area that gets effected.
Yep. I never ever buy road bike anymore. Anything with internal rout cable is a big nono for me.
As someone with a bit engineering background, i always have my gut back me up whenever i purchased something.
I remember 50 yrs ago when I was a cycling youngster with steel forks and steerer, it was common practice (UK) amongst the club members to fit a tight wooden dowel down inside the steerer and past the fork crown 'just in case', maybe it would be a good idea today as well.
Yes, I remember seeing this as well, the Specialized SL7 recall solution was basically a modern version of this.
Thanks for bringing up this topic and telling us in words a layman can understand. Came across your channel when I was building up a gravel bike and was dealing with a carbon fork. And this topic about internal cables of course ... brings us to a problem we often wouldn't think of. So thanks for sharing, and best wishes from Switzerland.
Raoul, as always, excellent analysis. Maybe for your next topic you could give us your opinion on road hookless rims.
Road hookless :(
@@LuescherTekniksay no more
1. Inspect your fork frequently. 2. It´s a bugger to do it yourself, and costly to leave it to a workshop. Great!! Rgr
Great to hear from you again and thanks as always to share your findings from these designs. External cables it shall be!
The industry shills (GCN,Dave Arthur etc) have been pushing integrated cockpits hard and the consumer is buying the Koolaid.
Not only are there safety issues as Luescher has highlighted but bike fit adjustment becomes an expensive nightmare.
I see a day of pushback coming.
I have a tad bit more respect for GCN than Dave Arthur. GCN doesn't hide the fact that they are a trade publication and receive money to showcase they product, it's easy to watch them as entertainment only. Meanwhile, David Arthur tries to pass himself off as an independent outlet that objectively "reviews" the product but is in fact one of the most blatant shills on CZcams. He doesn't even study the product himself carefully, just repeats and rephrases what the companies want to bombard the customers with.
So glad I've stuck with my rim brake TCR 🤣
If you need to drop the fork to check and have hydro discs it will usually mean having to bleed the brakes aswel as there isn't enough slack in the cable to drop the fork.
WHAT A FAFF..... 😂😂😂😂
This is scary stuff. I have an “old” Canyon Aeroad with externally routed cables, which may look less hip but geez, it makes me glad I ride externally routes bikes! Yikes! 😬Rhyme not intended! Thanks for your engineering diligence mate ❤️
You're still on internal routing, just that the more accurate term now would be "regular internal routing" since only the steerer tube passes through the headset assembly.
If your shift and brake lines enter the frame at any point, you're not on external routing.
I made the decision early on when making CF bikes for the family to route all the cables externally. I could have cut holes, 3d printed opening grommets, all that, but I decided, no thanks. I don't want extra holes in the tubes -- and internal routing makes recabling a PITA. Sure the bikes look a mess (as old bikes did) but internal routing to me was just a hassle with too many potential pitfalls. Running it through the head tube and using a part donut to bodge it seems like the height of stupidity. What really puzzles me is that it'd be very simple to route those cables next to the headtube in a separate tubeset(s) incorporated just to the side of the real headtube, then run them into the usual holes in the top or downtubes. It'd look pretty good and avoid all that nonsense. But what do we expect from the industry that brought us xx,000 misaligned, squeaking press-fit BBs? I did 60 miles on a trail today and saw half a dozen bikes that cost $5k and up and all of which sounded like chitty chitty bang bang next to my DIY bike.
Therer's no question, absolutely none. Some bikes, but not all, truly have bad cable route designs through the headtube. It's ridiculous.
3:25 oh my god, who the fuck ever thought this was feasible? what an absolute joke.
That they don't see this as a HUGE design flaw is mind-boggling. All that leverage acting on the fork and bearing, yet they leave 33% of it unsupported, AND with a nice sharp edge to gouge into the carbon? It would be a questionable design if the steerer tube were steel, but it being carbon makes them derelict!
If there was more material after the diameter it would be better, but manufacturers are making the cutouts excessively large to make cable routing easier.
Seems like the cycling industry needs a safety standard that it must adhere to before items can be sold. However this will increase prices even further in an already inflated market?
Absolut brilliant. Thanks for your video! Starting my bachelor thesis in mechanical engineering on carbon fork design. Hope I'll help developing carbon forks some day.
I'll concede that routing cables straight through top tubes, down tubes, and chainstays might keep them cleaner without unnecessary rub, but routing through steerers and headsets is asking for trouble.
Easy fix is add grease to the area where cable might rub and use thinner cables preferably compressionless ones.
Dear Raoul, Excellent video! I appreciate the attention you pay to ride safety, over the flim-flam and shiny object technical solutions the bike brands put out there, for e.g. the SL7 steerer issues and the Cannondale head tube issues to accomodate internal cables. I would really appreciate your opinion on Canondale's latest solution for hiding cables in the head tube as seen on the 2023 SuperSix, the triangular shaped steerer tube. I am attracted to this bike but worry "How this can possibly be a good idea?" Clamping down on a triangular member? The distribution of stresses on a triangle shape steerer as opposed to a round tube?
Two wedges are supplied to fill up the spaces to allow the stem to clamp a cylindrical structure instead of just the steerer tube with a pizza slice-shaped cross-section.
I have only seen photos of the new Cannondale design, so can't really comment, except for saying that shaped steerers are more complex to make than round steerers and I still see problems with the round ones.
@@yonglingng5640 Thanks for the explanation. I guess I will have to see this in an actual bike shop. It's a little difficult to visualize. Cheers.
I think the fundamental design of the bicycle was perfected about 25 years ago. Once the gear levers were incorporated with the brakes, we were at a high point. Internal cable routing and "aero" frames are the victory of style over substance.
sorry pal, but your wrong on that "style over substance" bit- aerodynamics are as noticeable as a baggy jersey over a fitting one on a windy day- it all adds up. Cliches like "steel is real" may sound cool to say- but no matter if you close your eyes while repeating your mantra doesnt make it so. There is substance to our advances- whether or not you choose to invest in that substance is your personal choice- but I dont think it is worth discarding over marketing slogans.
Mr Teknik is providing us with some important information regarding certain design choices. Every system is going to have it's weaknesses and it's strengths. In chess any opening move can lead to victory- it is a matter of making the right choices in the right instances that will lead to a successful outcome.
Tend to say that for many many years. Now riding an aero frame with disc brakes. It is so much more faster, yet comfortable, I am never looking back.
25 years ago lol. Nah I’m good on a more modern bike thanks.
A very clear demonstration. Manufacturers should really hire you and pay your body weight in gold, they’d still save money on recalls and reputational damage.
Instead, the lawyers will hire him as an expert witness in tort cases well after the fact. He'll make money providing his expertise - but after the owner has suffered serious loss.
Maybe their ego's won't let them.
@dudeonbike800 I have done expert witness cases, unfortunately mostly they get settled out of court so nothing changes. I would prefer to not see people get hurt in the first place.
It looks like some fairly basic engineering principles weren’t followed here, and I suspect not too many engineers were involved in the design and manufacture. Given the retail price of some of these frames, that’s really below expectations in my opinion, particularly given the critical nature of the components.
I’ve previously used Park Tool super patches for contact points to prevent wear. The adhesive is strong and the compliant nature seems to prevent wear and damage due cable rub
I do believe some manufacturers recommend inspection on a annual basis. Thanks once again for highlighting these design short comings. 👍
Great, the consumer will have to pay $400 to have brake lines undone, reattached and then refilled and bled with new brake fluid, among other maintenance every single year. All to check on a defective design from the factory. On an annual basis. My foot this will happen! People can't even service the various other mundane components on their bikes, much less a "mission critical" component with dire consequences for failure to monitor. Bleeding brakes and suspension service is ALWAYS put off until WAY past the recommended service interval.
@@dudeonbike800 agreed
Very interesting video. I have a locally built bike brand with almost identical setup. I now have an indent in the steerer tube from that metal horse show piece meaning I can no longer secure the headset and I have around 3-5mm of play. The manufacturer has said I need the steerer tube repairing; this just seems like a sticking plaster and not sure how it will prevent this happening again in the future!?
It seems that it is relatively easy with CF to just route the cable in a separate chamber outside of the bearing and maintain the usual interface with the steerer tube, without any sharp points. What could be done is to make an oval headtube and have the hoses and wires (no mechanical) go inside this channel which would be in front or behind the bearing. Another strategy would be to have the hose in a coil or a loop so that it can sit on the outside or above the bearing. The industry doesn't seem to have thought about how hydraulic hoses may be positioned differently from sheathed cables.
Behind-bearing internal routing exists. Some examples include the Giant Propel Advanced (last two generations from the current one) and early-to-mid-2010s Cervélo S5 (ie. last S5 generation with rim brakes).
As for ahead-bearing internal routing, this is what Cannondale was trying to achieve with their third-generation SuperSix EVO, but it necessitated the need for a steer stop to limit its steering range so that the front hydraulic hose doesn't get crushed. However, this workaround is a big failure as it led to many cracked head tubes from various causes (steering too hard, crash-induced steering bumps, etc.). This made the third-generation SuperSix EVO one of my most notorious road bikes, a model I will never recommend anyone to buy.
For now, I don't think there's a compromise-free solution. You can have a structurally sound steerer tube support system, you can route shift and brake lines very cleanly, but you can't have both.
Seems we’ve created a problem that needs a solution. My rim brake bike is much less hassle. (I have both - I’m not anti disc) but it’s just easier and so much cheaper.
The fit on that metal piece looks quite loose. I can imagine that flex under heavy breaking would cause so issues with it digging into the carbon steerer…
Factor has solved the top bearing issue with a deeper oversized bearing compression ring, and revised shape on the steerer to give a much greater surface area. Headsets on those are rock solid. #ostrovam
It's funny how Specialized, Cannondale and Cervelo claim they are leaving pressfit bb behind and going back to threaded, due to practicality and ease of maintainance....
And then they switch to fully integrated cable routing.
When Specialized did this to their Epic World Cup, I disliked it. Between this and the Trek Supercaliber, I'd take the latter despite preferring BSA-threaded for MTBs.
.... a hookless carbon rims!
Thank you , another reason I’ll be staying with my older bike then.
Thank you Raoul!
Deda has all parts made of plastic except the main top ring. I question all designs with internal cable routing, but as consumers we have 90% of brandswith internal routing, it is a headache when you want to replace cables or change handlebar. It has nothing to to with "aero" which has not marketing B...
Excellent as usual, Raoul. The sad thing is how many disc braked bike owners are going to dismantle their bikes to check the steerer? It we're lucky, they will do it when the headset bearings wear out. And that will be too late for many>((
Only an extremely tiny percentage of them do. People who don't know how to even remove a rear wheel exist.
Nothing wrong with slowly rubbing the carbon away in areas you can’t see.
Just sell the bike to a dentist each year.
I had a steerer tube fail in 1991. On Rt 100 in Wardsboro, VT. The steel tube cracked from back to front. The only thing connecting my wheel and fork to my frame was the brake cable. I'm overdue for a squirrel in my front wheel 😣
Thanks for sharing your experience, some people think that steel never fails, however it is not so much the material but the design and production that matters.
@@LuescherTeknik how are those power cranks?
I think it would be better if digital shifters were wireless. Then its 2 less cables to worry about. A complete wireless data transfer solution with encryption is like $2 these days, which is probably less than what the cables cost.
Well done on not naming the manufacturer. Now everybody just wonders. Great job👏
Eh? 1:45.
It is from a Flanders bike.
What brand makes its own frames in 2023? Even Giant pay other OEM factories to make some frames for them.
"If your fork steerer fails then the next thing to hit the ground may be your face" Sounds less than ideal 😝
Towel inspiration from Hambini 😅
I don’t think the manufacturers care about this too much… they think we’re going to buy a new $13K bike every year 🙄
Now I fully understand while dentists are the prime target to buy these really expensive bikes every model year... Perfect synergistic relationship...
The sad part about this is that many manufacturers are using this same "off the shelf" spacer/reducer system.
Could a fix be to somehow machine the centre bore of the spacer out a a few mm to increase the diameter and insert some kind of aluminium sleeve over the steerer tube to spread the load?
Internal cables really lets take all the fun out biking. I try to go for a ride everyday
They took a known good design, removed a bunch of material, and then expected what? Terrible design.
Shows this manufacturer does no significant impact or accelerated wear testing as expected.
Cable rub would also be a concern but less so for the carbon, and more that your hydraulic brakes might fail if the hose eventually abrades through.
Sadly now,’what the market wants’translates as ‘ how the industry is pushing forward’. In our profit over people Global Corporations complete takeover in every area of our lives( most disturbingly in food and Big Pharma ). We need to be wise in our choices and not just follow the dictates.....let’s face it,when I was road racing in the 1970’s and out riding on club rides we would average 20 mph. Now on our Carbon Aero Bikes,Disc wheels,7kg race bikes...club rides average around 20 mph!!! So whilst for elite riders ,modern tech and marginal gains mean something. For EVERYONE else ??? Oh and did I mention the obscene cost of top end Carbon bikes,with their Carbon in house wheels,bar and stem combo’s....made in China.
Would be so cool if rear brake lines where built into the mould so all you do is connect to the fixed hose/pipe at the headset
With all the voids though it would leak ;)
That is simply a terrible design. As an engineer, I would never consider putting my name, or the name of the company I work for, on something so dangerous. They should be forced to hang a red tag on the stem outlining the hours between periodic inspections that should be performed to make that implementation safe. But it probably looks good. Don’t judge the engine based on paint job!
There are top bearing retainer rings which wrap fully around steerer and also allow internal cable routing. Can send a picture to you if you like?
Maybe they should add fiberglass in2 that stearer .. 🙃 ..
Its a simple thing to do by an industry that unable to do it. Simple. That is the worst system i have ever seen, not even a full compression ring?! This was not designed by and engineer. If it was they should be dismissed immediately.
Been thinking about getting rid of my Allez Sprint due to a constant creaking from the headset. Cleaned and greased the headset but still creaks when compressed. Apart of me fears it is the steerer and I do not want to die while riding. I am a professional mechanic so I’m quite familiar with these systems but I too am not the biggest fan. My next bike doesn’t have internal routing in the front end.
You're a 'professional mechanic' yet you own an Allez Sprint. 100%.
@@zygmuntthecacaokakistocrat6589 I used to work for specialized. Thank you for your useless comment
@@zygmuntthecacaokakistocrat6589 but you’re some dude. Hiding his face on internet 🫠
@@zygmuntthecacaokakistocrat6589 you’re welcome to come watch me work 40 hours a week at my shop in NYC 🥱
@@zygmuntthecacaokakistocrat6589 what, you think wrenches are making high tech money? Some of 'em have to make rent and eat, ya know - on a pittance. Pro deals or not, it ain't all champagne & roses!
Obvious solution is to round these hard edges a bit or use normal full circle spacer and put cables into separate hole further back.
All my cables/hydraulics are external, even the dropper seat post (Thompson Elite which is now out of production due to fashion trend) and would not have it any other way. I service/build my bikes and do not want to be wasting time threading cables through tubes with magnets etc just to be trendy. Form follows function. External or wireless and nothing in between lol.
thanks a lot for sharing. scarry stuff out there...🥶
Raoul, i would have thought a recall on manufacturers is mandated because this is clearly a design flaw and it is a safety issue. Consumer Law in Australia should protect us from this because a product has to be of reasonable life span of approximately 10 years. Interesting to see if Merida’s and or Trek’s system is well designed?
"Less than ideal"--to say the least! As a mechanic I've always hated the idea of headset-routed cables, so I can't deny this video gives me some schadenfreude.
I had a TCR on my stand that had a 1mm deep cut in the steerer as a result of gear internal cables rubbing on it over about 3 years of use.
A giant TCR is one of those bikes that doesn't have internal cabling. Or someone has been creative themselves? But then you shouldn't complain and you take the risk yourself. But I recently bought a new TCR myself and it has no internal cabling. That's also the reason I bought it instead of the new cannondale supersix.
@@HippiehansieYou still have internal routing, if your shift and brake lines enter your frame and fork at any point, it's classified as internal routing. Only in this era onwards, I call it regular internal routing.
External routing is for 20th-century road bikes, where shift and brake lines do not enter the frame at any point, which is not the case for your TCR Advanced.
Most of these bikes would need to re bleed their front brake to inspect the steerer, unfortunately, nobody is going to do that.
There are a couple of carbon wizards like this guy. The big brands should take them aboard when designing new bikes. It's dangerous if you see what's happening right now. You pay 5000-10.000 for a bike and the customer is buying a product that isnt well designed. Example: old cannondale supersix with the pin stopper. Like, wth. Internal cables: I like the look. But if specialized, cannondale or any other big brand takes someone like this guy on the team they are not only gonna make more saver bikes, but also have the edge over the competition. Just saying...
« The ring of death » - Durianrider
Ironically, a fork design from 2008 or so with an Al steerer in CF legs would have fared a lot better than this full CF fork.
The full CF fork is almost certainly cheaper to make (apart from the more expensive tool), so we’re never going back to aluminum steerer tubes.
These forks also has disbond failures so full carbon can be a better solution, if designed and manufactured correctly.
Carbon fiber for bike frames is a lost cause. They are producing landfill that kills people with a myriad of failure points and failure modes hidden from the user. The bike industry is criminally negligent.
It's not worth it. Can't you just love riding your bike without going silly. Good, reliable, home serviceable equipment is becoming a thing of the past.
Unfortunately, that's not the case for many riders. All they care about is the looks. I currently have two new framesets (one of them is now built up as a bike from my old frameset), none of which run integrated internal routing. These two models I got actually still look pretty nice.
If you have the time and you think you could anything, I am extremely curious to hear your take on that carbon fiber sub implosion. I know you're not a submarine expert, but there is video of that cylinder being wound and the properties of carbon fiber composite under compression-- cyclical compression loading and unloading-- I would think your opinion would be worth my viewing time.
I have been asked this a lot, there are certainly comparisons with the bike industry in terms of "Innovate or Die"
My bike actually had its compression ring revised to a version that is over 1cm high and uses a 2 piece design to give a really snug interface between the bearing and steerer. They also added in a better system for routing the cables. However, this part revision was not communicated until my first unit had etched my steerer. Honestly the manufacturers need to be far more transparent with these designs and need to make the parts/technical drawings way more available.
Is this a Tarmac SL7?
@@yonglingng5640 no sir seka exceed.
@@EllisPedersen Ooh, a two-piece split compression ring?
@@yonglingng5640 yeah it’s a very nice design (I’m and ME student) they basically have built a nice flexible inner ring that’s just a thin walled 1.5cm deep split ring and then had a 1.3cm deep piece that interfaces between the split ring and bearing and that is a rigid part with slots to route the cables through which keeps them nicely away from the steerer
@@EllisPedersenI'm looking at the Exceed's user manual now, turns out it's pretty similar to the Tarmac SL7's revised compression ring + shim. Now I fully realised the shim is to prevent the shift and brake lines from touching the steerer tube, I can't believe I never realised this! 🤦♂️
Would plastic spacers be any better? If there was a compression plug where the delamination is, then surely that would help?
Ive been liking FSA spacers, they are lighter than carbon and get the job done, they may be some sort of light plastic/polycarbonate
This is the exact same design as the Velobuild bikes and the associated brands like Dolan.
Off topic, let us know what you think about the titan sub, with its carbon implosion
I've been asked this alot.
I miss this guys videos
Is the Chris King Aeroset headset subject to these issues? Their website suggests that they did plenty of engineering to prevent these issues.
I agree it's not great but when you say " I've seen so many " how many ? My F12 at 4 years old has 0 marks after 20+ k miles .
Snapped handlebar on Look bike at Le Tour today. Are bike manufactures serious??!
I saw that on the tv coverage. Didn't look like a crash was involved from what I saw.
That looks like a Time ADHX or another using Deda's internal routing "system"
The better solution is a bayonette fork, where the hoses can route through the front, completely separated from the brarings.
So the cables can RUB ON THE CARBON?
Either way you get brake hoses that wear away and LEAK and or you get carbon wearing thin and SNAPPING at some point.
THERE IS ZERO LOGIC IN HIDING HYDRO CABLES INSIDE THE STEERER. IYKYK.
@@durianriders😅
Merci!
Thank you for your support.
@@LuescherTeknik Your expertise is essential for the layman. Keep up the good work and be well!
So it's rather problematic headset design for internal routing than cableing itself... On that note, how much damage caused by the cable/hydraulic housing rubbing did you notice?
I think the point is that there isn't a good system out there, plus any system that allows the cables to directly contact the steerer will result in abrasion, just look at the damage external cables do rubbing on the outside of the frame over time.
@@ohshitnotanotherknob yes, abrasion occurs, but at what rate - that's the question.
I've seen good solutions at expos, but they utilize oversized top bearing and haven't seen them on production models yet
I still do not understand... if the design has to be full custom and proprietary from the frame to the cockpit (which is already incredibly stupid) why not at least twist entirely the compression mechanism and place it underneath the fork instead of above? That way the cables could run through a monocoque handlebar-stem-steering tube piece, coming out in a pre-made hole between the two bearings. and the two fork blades would be connected to the steering tube with a lateral torque system similar to the one of the current stems/cockpits. Is there anything that speaks against this solution?
Question... I know you aren't an expert in submarines, but as an expert in carbon fiber, what are your thoughts on the Titan incident and the use of carbon in such applications?
Experientially I don't trust any carbon steerer.
Not a fan of the dentist either.
Why can’t they get the design right. ? It. Not rocket science
Raoul I had a dream last night that you were driving me in an airport transport cart to a soccer game but I was supposed to be on a flight. wild dream.
@brucewayne3141 now that is just weird.
If you want to be safe , dont use carbon on your bike
Do you think this is a problem common to all brands ?
It heavily depends on each model's mechanical design.
yes!