Fate and Free Will in Ancient Astrology: An Interview with Chris Brennan
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- čas přidán 16. 02. 2023
- Today I am joined by my friend and colleague, Chris Brennan of The Astrology Podcast, and we're going to take some questions I gathered from you all on Instagram the other day. Chris is a world-renowned expert in Hellenistic astrology, the author of the book Hellenistic Astrology, and the person I initially started learning from, so it'll be nice to have him here today to discuss these questions on the topic of fate and free will in ancient astrology from you all. So thank you to everyone who sent something in. We're excited to dive in.
Find the full transcripts at: nightlightastrology.com/blog/
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Separate, Adam and Chris make incredibly informative and insightful podcast.
But together… you two being such a power of discerning inquiry, philosophical reflection and open humility, and consistently offer as many new gems of knowledge as new questions to pursue.
For someone that is a student of life and conceptualization beyond the firmament, this is a golden ticket scenario for me.
Thank you both. I always appreciate your offerings.
I very much agree, I feel the same. ❤️🙏
Ditto. It raises the bar. Thank you so much.
To see both of my teachers together makes me so proud to study this art 😭🦚💜
Yesss! Such a great astrology teacher "mash up" hahaha 🤩 and hey good to see you too, Edwin! Hope you're doing well.🌞💜🤩
Two powerhouses of the celestial light!
Samesies!!!
I am also a student of both and I second this!
@@monique6451 ily!!! 🦚💜🧞♂️
Both of you over the last 6 years have accelerated my learning more than any other astrologers out there. Also Austin and a few others, but you guys are my main sources of astrological knowledge and I thank you.
The quiet love and deep respect with which Chris talks about astrology is truly inspiring ❤ ❤❤
Two of the most skilled and intelligent astrologers together in a conversation. That is a mitigating factor in the face of the Saturn Sun conjunction.
Thanks to you both.
Yeass! Two astrology Jedis finally come together! So excited to see this.
This is the most accurate description of what's happening in this video 😂💜
For anyone interested in this question I highly recommend the work of Donald Hoffman. Listen to the Lex Friedman podcast where he talks about the scientific possibilities of consciousness being the foundation of existence. It doesn't matter how far the stars are when there's good scientific evidence that the framework of time and space is not the end all be all of physics.
Looove Chris. Such a brilliant mind
Woo!!! Been looking forward to this video for a while :)
Me too!!!
You guys both are my favorite astrologers and I love to see you talking, especially on such a topic like Fate. 👏
Wow! This is awesome! The 2 🐐🙌🏽 what a treat! Please collaborate more often!!!
Yes! Love you both. Chris, I have your book and love your podcast. Adam, took your class and have followed you for years. So grateful for you both and for the time and work you’ve each dedicated to astrology.
Super, marvellous episode, I will listen this again
can't wait for this...❤
Both my guys I follow and check in every day for my astro forecast! Love you guys ❤
Thank you both for sharing your knowledge ☺
Love you guys🥰. Astro brains!!!
My two favorite astrologers together again!! ❤️
💜Thank you Adam and Chris💜
Great discussion. Too bad I didn’t know about the poll, I would’ve asked if the birth chart could be a sort of representation of our soul contracts.
There’s an asteroid called spirit that hints at that…. I can not remember what number it is of asteroids or I would share.
Thank you for this conversation! Many blessings!🙌🌟🕊
Looking forward to your conversation!
To me, the causal element of astrology feels most evident in the relationship between the Moon and Earth ie. the tides.
I lean toward sign-based too but a part of me is like well if the moon could rule the tides and the sun rules our growing season, it doesn’t feel out of reach to imagine that the other planets couldn’t possibly cause other mysterious phenomena.
Awesome!!! Thank you Adam and Chris!!
Thank you.
Wooooooow excited 🥰🤗
Love you both and appreciate this
Tha nk you both very much
Brilliant chat! I love seeing you both work together, and the depth to which you are able to go is enlightening in itself. This is why you are both my chosen teachers. Together, you give me astrological yin yang vibes ☯️ pt2 please!!
Simply…thank you, thank you, thankyou! A brilliant talk and I love you both. I am so grateful and blessed to have stumbled upon both of you over the last year, just as I started my astrology learning journey?
Yes! Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! 💃
This is so good✨❤️
I'm so happy for this conversation🥰... but I did think it was a live 😔 maybe next one?😉
pretaped or not--A fabulous exchange of wisdom - Thank you both🦋
Brennan mic drops in his closing statements!
I can share that I was not served by astrologers who downplayed a very challenging Pluto transit through my 4th. No one came even close to capturing the experience. I recently learned I was living on my Pluto line during the transit. Just glad I am almost done!
The Leo King just talked about this on his Astro Channel. Fate and Destiny seem to be coming up a lot as Pluto enters Aquairus.
I have heard other astrologers scoff at or make fun of the Leo King but from my perspective he just presents astrology in a different way than other astrologers. I find him more along the lines of Rick Levine who is great also. His actual astrology and understanding of it is pretty solid (idk about his predictions but I haven't heard enough of them to have an informed opinion on that). The Leo King presents astrology in a way that appeals more to the masses and therefore helps bring more people to astrology. He is a Leo people come on... Of course he is going to be more ostentatious than some in his delivery of info. Truly he just wants to help enlighten and help others on their journey just like the 2 astrologers in this video. Maybe people should take that into account instead of being asshats about him. I watch all 3 astrologers every week.
It's so good to see the two people that helped me be a better astrologer together. Thank you, Adam and Chris!
It was fate and free will that brought me to these two teachers. What they've taught me and the reverence these two hold for the art and science of astrology will forever be in my heart. Thank you both for helping this night chart make sense of Saturn ✨💜
Sooo looking forward to this!
❤❤❤ ohhh wow! Two super stars ⭐️ together!! THANK YOU!
I love these topics. It’s also interesting to see that CZcams is probably making a killing off this channel. 😂
Yes, Chris’s podcast has kept me so occupied that I’ve basically ignored nightlight for roughly a year. Diving further into astrology, there was a specific system I didn’t want to touch with a 12 foot pole, I’ve reached a point where I’m not only breaking the western variant down to use but also removing the zodiac signs (intentionally hyperbolic) finding it more descriptive.
I had a wonderful misfortune of someone making calculation errors on my natal where astrology didn’t quite strike an interest until the early 2000’s, but even in a psychological perspective, the “deterministic” view was impossible to avoid. 12th house Leo sun in my natal is almost literal in how it manifested which immediately brought up the topic on if everything is predetermined for a personal purpose. Even then, related, the quality of wanting to study something on my own terms appears by placement which is why I’m so grateful for various channels, podcasts, and books.
This topic has come up (personally) with transits through Aquarius, Chris had some episodes that took me back to the debate in physics on this same topic on various levels. Example: I’m with Penrose that collapse is likely from the physics of gravity, not a result of how positive or negative your thought process is. Aka, consciousness determining the outcome was simply an absurdist metaphor for an incomplete physics model. If a tree falls in a forest, it feel even if a conscious individual didn’t see it.
Traditional adds more richness and depth, I actually wonder if many clients would seek out an astrologer to indirectly delineate the lot of exaltation. Does what a person enjoys going relate strongly with their goals or “destiny”?
Chris’s deep dive into Aquarius brought up (for me) William S. Burroughs that made me rewatch a documentary about his personal life and broad influence, it also helped seal using terms/bounds because it’s extremely easy to identify how they were working in his natal in a static sense. Even his infamous drug use, rahu in pisces in mercury terms with mercury on his ascendant.. he had a Hunter S. Thomson approach to writing non fiction fictionally almost like a “martyr” being in a very piscean beatnik culture of psychedelics and even addictive pharmaceutical drugs (opioids). He heavily documented companies and doctors behaviors which foreshadowed the current opioid crisis. Eventually, everything leads to a philosophical viewpoint and I’ll say I did make a paraphrased note of Schopenhauer: “to understand a benefic, just observe an animal rejoicing in devouring its prey”. (This may get entertaining)
Right now, I’m starting to break down zodiac signs. I’m focused on libra (they’re interesting). Seasons can be flipped, it’s just easier to use winter. Libra is the initiation of summer to fall, the start of a decline where resources become scarce so there’s this Saturn vibe, but delegating resources requires a Venusian approach in terms of fairness. Plus, if people resort to cannibalism, you don’t want on that list. It’s noticeable in the terms that the sign goes from constructive to destructive gradually. Saturn, constructive. Mercury, the more merchant side but also relates to different Merc significations. Jupiter, it starts its beginning of decline in some sense, may fall into the degrees that the sign is most known for. Sect would definitely need factored it, it could start destructive in an incline, not decline. Reversal of seasons is still similar, just reversed. Anyways, to me, there’s a pattens with more emphasis on planets where signs are a description of a formula. The further you go down that rabbit hole, it’s almost like free will gets debunked, yet, you know there’s a conscious person functioning in some way that is acting on will on some level. Sometimes a concept in astrology comes up where it’s described interestingly like in spear bearing; seems very linked to length of life techniques.
A fun case in point: it appears South Park just ripped on one of the modern manifestations of libra placements. Yes, leaving a royal family to become social media influencers is likely a common libra manifestation and.. definitely look at South Parks birth chart. Even with that, it comes out with Saturn in aries in the shows ascendant (high quality animation?) with some 7th libra, like mars.. jupiter in the 11th, but also Venus in virgo.
I have a lot in mercury terms and it rules my asc and mc, so I take no responsibility for the duration of this comment. I have a useful rule, if a person is into something and they start to dream about the topic.. back up a little, your mind is problem solving on its own and piling on more information isn’t exactly helping. I watched this instead after having a “rulership” dream. Chris is doing a great job over-saturating the market lately. 😁🙃
You both play off each other extremely well.
thank you to both
Great talk, thank you!
Great discussion! I really enjoyed it!
Uuuuuh i remember the discussion between Chris and Austin on the topic 💥💯
As I’m listening to the final minutes of this episode, and I’m hearing you both really reiterate how subscribing to extreme narratives in polarities when it comes to astrology can be problematic. And moreso, hearing Chris especially, hone in on and consistently emphasize the greater need for a standard of “do no harm” with astrologers and clients.
It brings me back to the ongoing reflections of formal education with all its overt rigors, limitations and costs vs. all the available (and muddled) information and educational materials (often skewed), yet affordable that is available with modern internet.
And as I consider my own education, I recognize the extensive training, emphasis and accountability held for practitioners to not just “do no harm”, but how and in what variables of presentation, can a practitioner both recognize that a patient will likely or potentially go too far in interpretation and efforts with a recommendation and/or prescribed treatment protocol.
A simple example, For instance: recognizing certain behavioral indicators of a patient before offer acupressure ear balls post acupuncture, because they have the potential to press and press an ear ball so rigorously that it drives the head into the skin creating a whole host of problems.
And how, as a practitioner that still follows every precautionary measure and evaluative presentation, to be protected from subsequent litigation of people that didn’t take responsibility within their own limitations and misinterpretations.
The point I’m trying to illustrate is in support of Chris’ point that astrologers can do harm if they aren’t working with clients in a balanced and informed manner. And that, for both better and worse, I anticipate a more formalized approach will likely be eventually called to task in working with others in a guidance manner. Because there is most definitely a stronger wave of astrologers that do harm with “dooms day-your child will die and your marriage will fail” or “it’s all good-just be happy and everything will work out” polarity predictions with people. As is what comes with the territory of astrology popularizing.
As you both keep saying, “there has to be a balance”. And I would add, it might be found in the same kind of balance that will be developed between costly and regimented formal education vs. “I googled it and took a random, unaccredited workshop education”.
That mediating of a new paradigm in astrology is something I can see and outline the details coming together.
I cannot wait to listen to this 🤯😁
I am Definitely looking forward to this!!!
111 comments on the video when I tuned in. Great topic. I learn so much from both channels
Wowwwwwww! What a treat
Great stuff!
Man, what a treat!
What a wonderful pleasure to get to enjoy casual wise, thoughtful musings between two of the giants of this beautiful thing called Astrology! I'm so happy to know enough about Astrology to be able to enjoy and benefit from something like this! Thank you and many blessings.
Thanks!
You bet!
OMG can't wait
Great podcast. Thank you for sharing. Adam, when you were discussing the question of astrology as a personal instruction manual, and mentioned how constant access to astrology can leave one disappointed, it reminded me very much of people I have met in work with Sacred Plants. Some people become so obsessed with "the work" that their entire life (sometimes for years) revolves around a seemingly endless string of ceremonies, and focus on the Medicine. So much so that they never pause to integrate the gifts of the Medicine into their life until they fall apart from the constant reboots, and are forced to take a break. I'd imagine astrology can be the same way
I am so ready for this!
Man. That was good.
Really good! Thank you.
What a treat! Two very wise spirit guides and anointed teachers we get to enjoy together, awesome! Thank you for sharing your minds with us and thank you for your service to the ALL! We love you!
i loved this topic! thank you both.
This was such a great video! Thanks guys :)
What I’ve learned so far from astrology and I’m love with it now I can’t get enough divine deep to my core being, that it feels to me whatever you do or experience or even just think of is accepted and understood, there’s answer and explanation, well that’s how I see it I’m sure my beliefs and ideas will change but from someone who grow up in extremely religious family, guilt runs in my blood for even having a thought that maybe there’s no hell or heaven well, astrology to me is liberating and exciting to explore.
I appreciate this episode thank you Adam and his guest.
I have a friend whose mother was literally eaten by dogs... Just goes to say that there are reasons why the ancients cite very specific extremes. 💫
Great convo gentleman.
Great talk !!
Wow, this episode was so enlightening and confirming. Thank you both for your knowledge, perspectives and willingness to share.
Blessings to you both. I am truly grateful!
Two of my favorite informative and authentic teachers! I love this! Deep and profound.
So grateful !
Bring it.
1:26:13 - when Chris mentions subreddits of people giving their life experiences with different astrological archetypes - can Chris share which subreddits he was referring to?? I wanna check them out!!
Thank you Adam and Chris for doing this!! 🙏🏼
I like Chris voice
Oh really?
Thank you to both Adam & Chris! I’ve learned so much from you two over the last 6 years. Great topic & conversation. I hope you’ll do another episode together in the near future.
Very insightful and inspiring. I loved "not to negative and not too positive" take life events in moderation. Thank you ❤😊🌞
This is so cool. It's like watching spock and capt. Kirk talk on star trek.
Loved this episode Two wonderful astrologers.
Thank you 🙏
This is a legendary collab
Is fate not a manifestation of the aspects in our birth chart, free Will is the choices we make in life when dealing with those challenges.
Many different moves to choose from yet the pieces mating in to one final integration in the end ;)
Thank you
Both my teachers on one stream how exciting!
I haven’t watched yet, but I will already say: What a power duo!
Chris and you!!😄🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉yeah!!
@14:55 Yep, accepting this. Listened as I was reading about Chiron in the 10th house. Could my relationship with my father been any different...I don't think so. 🙏🏼
Great combination
✅Legends🎧💯🎧😎✌🏾
Wonderful🙏✨✨✨
oh how coooool😄🌞🌈
Elements, Modality, Polarity
Wow, this is so much brain and soul food to chew on, thank you!
When you all were making the clock metaphor I couldn't help but think on that for a bit. As in, the clock both simultaneously is a sign representing time and something that experiences it as well (whether it's the gears moving or rusting, or the batteries wearing out) and I can't help but wonder how this is for the planets too. It's like the archetypes are a thread moving through both us and them. Then I was reminded by looking at the news from around the time I was born, and kind of astonished because I was born two days before the Venus retrograde in October of 1994, and to my surprise the exact day she went retrograde we lost contact to the Magellan space probe in her atmosphere the day it started on October 12th, Mercury was also retrograde at this time fwiw. And a few days further it was confirmed that the probe crashed onto Venus. For me that just opened up doors of thought in wondering how the planets themselves might be experiencing archetypes in ways perhaps that we don't even see and that in divining we're picking up on something that the planets and us are simultaneously experiencing. Then there's the added factor of how the archetypes were moving through humans and acting on Venus, in a strange sense. Could the reverse then be true? I have no concrete answers of course but that door in my mind is definitely open and it's really fun to think about. So thanks again for just discussing this so well and eloquently! And simultaneously leaving room for openness and future discussion and imagination!
Nicely put and fascinating about Venus Rx around your birth! Thank you. What you wrote also makes me think that while the clock does not create time, we become aware of time and we REACT/RESPOND to what we think the clock tells us, so the clock does have a causational role even though it is not The Cause.
@@graylunsford ofc! And wow, that's a beautiful commentary, especially bringing in the relational aspect and how the awareness is important in that! I'll be thinking about that for a bit, thank you!
Acccording to Google Translate the Arabic word for destiny and fate are the same. I looked it up cos Arabic is an ancient language and I'm learning it. There is no word for Karma.
A woman in Britain recently got mauled to death by a pack of 8 dogs, she was a dog walker and they turned on her, we don't know why.
Really enjoyed the talk and Chris's summing up on fatesold me. If they are honest, despite free will, I don't think anyone wants to believe their lives are completely random.
This was a wonderful discussion! In retrospect I am so grateful for that turn of millennium spiritual rebellion that upset the apple cart in favor of free will and determinism. Though that spirit was radically crushed when the Romans adopted it and stripped it down to a state religion (they literally had been killing their own salves and conquered for centuries who were empowered by it) the nerve or impression remained.
That energy was a primary influence on the US constitution as it informed all the founders thinking to some degree or another.. The same nerve also informed the NE Native American tribes of 12 who helped influence the constitution via their own example which the founders were aware of and had lasted centuries ending warfare between the 12 tribes. Both constitutions were clearly delineated firsts of its sorts in known history exceeding even the Magna Carta; which was radical for its time.
The carta helped make the US rebellion and constitution a concept worth pursuing leading to the constitution and bill of rights declaring inalienable fundamental human rights bestowed not by man, nor a king or a ruler (or government), but by God or perhaps fate. ♥️ And it turns out it was written in the stars.
Both the Magna Carta and US Constitution set the stage to both later upset the apple cart further by making the worldwide, all known human history long practice of slavery intolerable.
There is an astrologer whose name escapes me at the moment, whose book I am reading that really flows alongside this conversation taking that niche or perhaps guidelines/limits of fate and transforming it into destiny; through awareness of it and positive direction and action aka free will. I myself, within the limits of fate and ancestral generational trauma patterns and fated 'curse' of our line, through self development and free will transformed our generational line from one of alcoholism, drug addiction, child abuse and neglect, poverty, self destruction into one of blessing, love, healing, determination, discipline and discovery breaking generational patterns that has freed my son from my intial fate and that of his at least immediate forebearers.
The outcome is in the objective results...
My son is 22 and has never been molested, beaten, left hungry, or homeless. He had all of his basic needs met. He had his higher needs met and stimulated including empowerment, inspiration, support, and creativity mixed with stoic reserve for the things truly out of his control other than his perception of. He is the most grounded, thoughtful young adult I have ever known.
Sadly many of my friends who later had kids, even when improving upon the parenting legacy they were given, they didn't quite make it to the finish line well enough to spare their kids from repeating the same toxic and chaos patterns. It has resulted in awful outcomes that their kids are having to live with... as a result of unconscious impulse driven choices they made, both the parents and the kids as teenagers and young adults.
My generation of friends were mostly utterly neglected by their parents. This was across all class and racial lines. It encompassed many ethnic lines too, with the exception of my many friends who were from ancestrally or recently immigrated Mexican families. Their parents were very involved! However the kids I knew from a strongly bonded family had the same disastrous outcome ***if*** they chose the neighborhood ethnic gangs over their parents and families. All to say we were a pack of wild heyennas and out of control through to our mid twenties. Some even longer. And a third did not make it past their twenties and another quarter not past their forties. So here is to transforming your fate into the destiny you want by working within the parameters given but upsetting the apple cart through free will and self empowerment. 💙💙💙
Adam, i really think its better the other camara take you had. I dont know why, its just a feeling it created of being with you, like chilling with you. Isntead of being "lectured". Which is funny, becouse i love your lectures. Maybe i just prefere that feeling of being lectured in a not so frontal way.
Its a very very personal opinion. But theres is something in the other camara take, which i love very much and i guess i can not explain why.
Best whishes,
D.
A+++
In Chinese metaphysics there's the cosmic trinity: heaven (time), earth (space) and man (consciousness). Heaven is the timeliness or luck of things (you can't control it and you can't change it) and astrology studies this. Earth is the environment and how the time manifests or flows (you can't influence it, but you can change it by moving to a different place) different schools of feng shui study this. Man is our "free will" our "pro-choice" part (we can influence and we can change it) medicine and self-development practices like meditation study this. In the west, we only have astrology so it's a debate of "either this or that", while in the east they clearly follow a different line of thought because that metaphysical practice has different subjects to study different things: astrology is just the quality of time, that quality is manifested in accordance with the environment and we choose what to do about it. It's like the rain (time) and you being in the Sahara or in the pacific northwest experiencing that rain (space) and then you choose if you want to stay home to not get wet or to build a water collector (consciousness). So, they kinda believe in partial determinism, but it's more complex. We could say that millions of people have the same chart as Beyonce. But, the timelessness of that birth or that quality of time manifested in different ways in accordance to the different environments where people lived and then people made they're own choices. So, there's only one Beyonce. Maybe people with that same chart had similar experiences at the same time, but they had completely different lives and contexts because of the other 2 components in addition to time (space and man). Some subjects in Chinese metaphysics study a 4th realm which is the spiritual realm (divine connection) divination practices like the yi jing study this by creating a communication channel with the divine. This also matches the 4 elements: fire (spiritual/divination), air (time/astrology), water (man/self-development), earth (space/feng shui). So, in the east, they believe that astrology just measures the quality of time or the luck or "timeliness" of things, nothing more, because the whole picture is more complex. Because of this philosophy, any Chinese metaphysics master (again, the vast majority aren't just astrologers, they study various subjects) will talk about the cosmic trinity and even say that "only 1/3 of things is pre-determined, another 1/3 is partially determined and another 1/3 is up to you".
Very interesting points! I'm not familiar with Chinese metaphysics but this has whet my appetite. Thank you!
@@kelseycaitlin before learning hellenistic astrology, I learned Bazi (one of the different systems of Chinese astrology, there's also zi wei dou shu and qi zheg si wu which are cousins of western astrology) and feng shui (xuan kong flying stars). It's really interesting! Their views and philosophy is also really different because their systems work together. For example, they use electional astrology to do feng shui or they use astrology to get information about what physical constitution do you have in Chinese medicine. There is even systems of the yi jing (i ching) which have connections with astrology and feng shui, so they also can divine about what astrology says or diagnose feng shui issues with other divination systems. Even qi men dun jia (a form of Horary that they have) is tied with other systems and can be used together. They use the same symbolism in different ways in all those systems, so it makes it very easy to use them together for different purposes.
Gustavo, thank you so much 💜 I was prepared to Google but I really appreciate that you/ how you broke this down. This is awesome!
@@kelseycaitlin you're welcome 😊
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❤❤❤
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In future, time stamps would be helpful for the different segments covered
M job
I had to Google what stoicism was when you guys were talking about fate and destiny. I Had always ever heard stoic used in reference before.. But thought Wikipedia did had a great explanation as well! Sooo…I had to share. Lol
sto·i·cism
/ˈstōəˌsizəm/
1. the endurance of pain or hardship without the display of feelings and without complaint.
Similar:
2. an ancient Greek school of philosophy founded at Athens by Zeno of Citium. The school taught that virtue, the highest good, is based on knowledge; the wise live in harmony with the divine Reason (also identified with Fate and Providence) that governs nature, and are indifferent to the vicissitudes of fortune and to pleasure and pain.
💜💜