Record Cleaning - part 4: Ultrasonic machines: The Degritter Mk2 - full in-depth review & verdict
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- čas přidán 15. 09. 2023
- Following up on my previous videos (linked below) I have started looking into ultrasonic machines. In this, the fourth of this series, I report on my exhaustive tests with the Degritter Mk 2 record cleaner, which I hope will turn out to be the best record cleaning machine I've tried.
If you've not already seen them, do please take a look at the previous videos in this series:
Record Cleaning - part 1: the myths, the theory, the practise unravelled:
• Record Cleaning - part...
Record Cleaning - part 2: Ultrasonic machines: The HumminGuru intro and demonstration: • Record Cleaning - part...
Record Cleaning - part 3: Ultrasonic machines: The HumminGuru - should you buy one? My verdict: • Record Cleaning - part...
FOUR your aMUSEment: Ultrasonic Record Cleaning Machines - TEASER: • FOUR your aMUSEment: U...
Your reviews are professional. Nearly everyone else is amateur hours. You are a terrific source of info.
Thanks @hansformat that’s so good to hear!
Great review! I love my Degritter Mk 1, will upgrade to Mk 2 when possible. I have never let my records sit to after-dry though. Must test that to see if it makes a difference. I set my fans to high and 3 minutes and 15 seconds dry time. Great job reviewing a fantastic machine!
Thanks @tobbebonzo7869 I'm glad you enjoyed the video.
Thank you,Very Great review!!!!!!
Glad it was helpful!
I started out with the Spin Clean but cleaning one record at a time was at the very least time consuming, especially when you have very large collection (5000). Purchased a Vevor digital Ultrasonic cleaner and haven't looked back. Cleaning 8 Albums every 15 minutes is great and it leaves all the evidence residual in the tank! Have used it for 8 months without issue and all for a little less than 200 dollars. It came with a drying rack, Label protectors and Motorized Rotator.
Sounds like an absolute bargain. Thanks for the information.
Can't fault the information you provide, very interesting,,another enjoyable watch..cheers Dave..
Thanks Craig. Glad you found it interesting.
Thanks for the great review, Dave.
Wait til you see my latest video Austin! ;-)
Love it. I’m very appreciative and I know many others are as well!
Thanks for the shout out. You must understand I am being devils advocate here and in a scientific comparison it would be vital to minimise differences in order that you result can be proven (or not). I accept though your concept and since this is not a double blind crossover study with p less than or equal to 0.02 then I think your study stands up!
Meantime, I think the Degritter (mk2) is indeed a marvellous machine and I truly love the ease of use combined with the fantastic cleaning efficacy.
Cool, thanks for the feedback.
Great video series. Even re-watched part 4 and part 5. One thing I keep missing if you still use a wetting agent like ilfotol in the rinse cycle or not?
Thanks Reiner. Great question: I have tried pure distilled water, with a tiny amount of Ilfotol (0.03%) and also with a dash of IPA. I am also planning on trying Ethanol in the rinse solution.
More videos on this to come!
@@DaveDenyer That is amazing. To be honest, I also have now ordered a Degritter Mark 2.
@@Vinyl-Movement awesome!
Man oh man, and I thought I was obnoxiously detail oriented! Well done, sir!
So, my understanding with respect to ultrasonic frequency and cleaning is that the lower the frequency, the larger and more forceful the "implosions". It's close to the grades of sand paper, where the lower number means that you'll be able to scrape harder but ultimately also damage more of what's underneath. Just the aluminum foil test on different frequency ultrasonic tanks demonstrates this, where at 40kHz it punches hold through the foil, but at 60kHz and higher it just creates more even dimpling. The lower frequencies of units like the Kirmuss make me kind of nervous. 40kHz seems like the lowest level for safety. The Degritter's 120kHz with higher overall power and strategic placement should be amazing, especially with enough surfactant to allow the fluid deeper into to grooves.
A few years back I got a 60kHz Sonix IV tank due to recommendations on a diyaudio thread about DIY ultrasonic cleaning setups. The motor that I built around it was a 5 RPH motor, leading to 12 minutes for a full rotation. It worked relatively well, but was clunky and slow and I still had to do a rinse and vacuum pass on my vacuum RCM. Eventually I abandoned the tedium of that setup, particularly when i started getting better results with just separate dilutions of Liquinox (10ml per liter) and Ilfotol (25ml per liter), with lab grade water rinse/vacuum passes after each. it takes less time and does a better job, so the ultrasonic with its external pump and 1 micron filter sitting unused for years now.
I'm somewhat curious to give the ultrasonic another try, if I could find a less tedious motor to work with. I definitely yearn for the Degritter, as it seems like a marvelous one-pass set-and-forget setup to save on tedium, but I cannot justify the cost of an RCM with a higher retail price than my turntable and phono preamp combined.
So thank you very much for your incredibly studious process here! Much appreciated!
Hi @packgrog, thanks so much for this excellent feedback. I've not tried Liquinox to be honest, but I'm guessing it will be having a similar effect to my preferred cleaning fluid for the Loricraft: Clearaudio Pure Groove. I'm still experimenting to be honest, so these 'conclusions' are not final: essentially I'm trying to find the best compromise between a simple process and effective results. I've now got a second tank for the Degritter so I can try that with wash and rinse cycles... In addition to a pre-wash on the Loricraft.
@@DaveDenyer the Liquinox is more of a pre-cleaner, and should be followed ultimately by an Ilfotol solution as apparently that helps remove any residual Liquinox leftovers that water alone doesn't remove (this being my understanding from the chemists in the vinyl community).
There was a time that I wanted to try building a DIY Loricraft clone, but the German-built Okki Nokki that I got for cheap works just fine.
Now, are you keeping the Ilfotol concentration low in your ultrasonic fluid partly so that you don't feel compelled to do a rinse pass (aside from just avoiding foaming from too much of it), or are you still following up with a rinse? The Degritter is sadly outside of my justifiable budget, but if I could streamline my DIY ultrasonic setup to be easier and more effective than the manual vacuum RCM process that I have now, I'd consider trying it.
the degritter will certainly help aiding the manuel process you are doing right now,which btw,is a great process by neil antin!! certainly better then most commercial products out there!/alconox liquinox is a magnificent very powerfull cleaner,this process and the degritter as a final dw.rinse is unbeatable combo/thanks for sharing@@packgrog
dave you should defenately try and read the great manuel process by neil antin,which apply the the liquinox cleaning fluid a very strong and powerful surfactant and thank you so much once again for your great in-depth review!!btw if you do you might be suprised that"s even better than your ""beloved""-pure-groove fluid@@DaveDenyer
I have downloaded it will get around to reading it for sure@@frankvanhelvert6231
Good video. I went from a Kirmuss to a Degritter Mk1. Both are effective, but the Degritter is massively more convenient to use.
On occasions when I want to use Turgikleen or when water temps are high due to constant use, I simply swap water into a pair of bowls between cycles. Eventually I’ll buy a second water tank.
Often, I just use distilled water without a cleaning agent to rinse new vinyl.
For distilled water, I spent ~$100 for a home distiller.
I have had a similar experience with the inbuilt filter. It’s evident that a grayish muck is being captured. Likely, it’s a mix of dust and perhaps fine particles of another type.
Thanks for the feedback: I really your idea of using two jugs and swapping them between cycles to keep the temperature under control.
I’m sure I’ll be buying a second water tank before long…
Thank you Sir for this in-depth review. Looks like I need to sell my Kirmus and Humminguru for a Degritter.
Thanks for the feedback. If you do I’d be interested to know how you get on.
Great review. And it really tickles my curiosity to hear that it’s just that much better than the HumminGuru which I currently own. Supposedly, the KLAudio offers a huge improvement on the Degritter as well. But it’s also more than twice as expensive. Which leads me to my question of context: most music lovers, even audiophiles are on a budget of some sort. When does investing €3000 in a record cleaner become feasible? Does the improvement to your over all sound compare to the jump from a €500 turntable to a €3000 turntable for instance?
Hi Emil, if I couldn't / can't afford the Degritter (and I need to think hard about that...) I'd definitely keep the HumminGuru. Especially as a post-Loricraft rinse it works astonishingly well; for the money an essential upgrade to me. However the Degritter is notably better. As I said in the video: I was sceptical until I heard it...
I've obviously also heard that the KL Audio is supposedly better still, but I do wonder if it's more akin to the HumminGuru / Kirmuss, being a 40kHz machine. There's only one way to find out of course, but I definitely couldn't afford a KL Audio, and would struggle to accommodate all the 'plumbing'.
As far as quantifying the benefit of the Degritter over the HumminGuru, It's a similar difference as going from a regular LP to a UHQR, if that helps at all. I did occur to me that if for the price of 10 UHQRs you can bring about a similar upgrade to your whole collection...
Maybe it is a similar level of performance gain to that of going from a £500 to a £3000 turntable.
The best improvement that I made to my system: Definitely the degritter. No component upgrade made that much of a difference than investing in one. Never regret buying one.
Great video Dave! my question is would the results be as apparent on a more humble hifi setup (which most of us own) in comparison to your high end, very revealing system??
I would love to know what your thoughts would be if you were to play the 4 muse records on a cheaper setup and if you can still hear the differences.
I clean everything on a Knosti machine using L'Art Du Son, rinse in a 2nd knosti bath with pure distilled water and then leave to air dry before playing. I have played a brand new record before cleaning on a few occasions when I've been too excited to play it (as the knosti cleaning method with air drying is long process) but obviously after it would be cleaned in the method above. Tbh on my system I can't say I've ever really heard much of a difference after cleaning with a brand new record but the knowing its clean makes me feel better and I do see dirt in the bath after cleaning so I know it's definitely cleaner. Old records, absolutely I can hear differences and has obvious effects and benefits.
So this leads me to think if you are able to hear the difference on 4 brand new records, 3 of which are cleaned on different RCM's then you've either got super ears or more likely it's because your system is so good at revealing the most subtle sonic elements that it becomes obvious.
I would love a part 5 where you've played the 4 records on a humble system like mine - Rega P6 Exact cart, Rega Aria MK2, Rega Elex-R, Harbeth 30.1. 😉
Glad you liked the video James. Yours is a good point: but firstly, my wife could clearly hear which record was which, ‘blind’…
So it’s not just my ears.
That’s a good idea: I’ll maybe take the 4 Muse LPs round a friend’s to try it in a system more akin to yours.
The P6 is a very decent table. My hunch is the Exact cartridge is a limiting factor. I’d consider going outside the Rega line and to try out a decent moving coil.
I have some experience with the Apheta 3. It’s overpriced for its performance level. For half as much, you can get a Hana ML.
@@ChrisMag100 Thanks for the recommendation, I do plan to upgrade to moving coil as soon as I’m able to afford to and know it will be a massive improvement. Everything is just expensive in this hobby 😩
@@DaveDenyer
Thanks for the reply Dave. I would just like to add that I’m not doubting there is a difference at all and I do believe the degritter is exactly as good as you say it is. I’ve been wanting one ever since they came out!
I just think I would struggle to hear as much of a difference as you do on my setup with brand new records. Hopefully one day!
Nice one day. I’ve watched a lot of kirmuss. He seems to be well into it. But the time involved is a long process but I think you can do three records at once
Hi George, glad you liked the video. I did think the Kirmuss gave excellent results, just couldn’t cope with the lengthy process on all of my records… and, despite it being a few years ago that I tried one, if memory serves me well, it had a similar sonic signature to the Humminguru.
Kirmuss is kind of a quack, but he was on to something with the choice of solutions and agitation. I've ultimately had great results with an older Okki Nokki and separate dilutions of Liquinox and Ilfotol, with lab grade water rinses between each. It's tedious but extremely effective. Kirmuss' ridiculous process did at least kick start discussions from chemists that led to the general acceptance of Ilfotol as the best general purpose concentrate, and it's heartening to see Dave include it as part of his ultrasonic tests here.
Great and very informative video Dave. Thank you very much.
Would be great to know how good the 120kHz Degritter MK2 is against the latest 40kHz KLaudio KD-CLN-LP-200T !
Also how does the Degritter MK2 compare with your DIY Ultrasonic Cleaner with the Kuzma rotator set-up you used to have ?
Reason I ask these questions is I am still on the fence whether to go down the Degritter MK2 route or the KLaudio LP-220T route (with possibility of also buying the 5 LP autochanger and Silencer box in the future for it) or go down the DIY route with an Elma Elmasonic P120H Ultrasonic Cleaner and the Kuzma RD Ultrasonic Record Cleaning Kit complete with a pump & filter circulating system. All of them quite expensive investments ranging from £2,700 for Degritter MK2 (with extra tank for rinsing & 7" & 10" record adaptors plus extra Degritter fluid and filters) to £4,200+ for the DIY set-up to £7,200 ish for the KLaudio LP-200T plus another £5,500 ish for the 5 LP autochanger and Silencer box.
Like you Dave I also have a good vacuum nozzle machine i.e. the original Keith Monks (KM) Classic RCM (that the BBC Archiving Dept used to use) where I use the KM RCM Discovery Cleaning Fluid for the pre-wash and main wash and then a final rinse with distilled water on the KM RCM to currently clean my records. But with even using the excellent KM Classic RCM with such a thorough cleaning regime, I still hear some clicks and pops, record surface noise and a bit of veiling to the music I am hearing.
FYI; I am based in the UK and have a analogue set-up consisting of a Kuzma XL DC TT with Kuzma 4Point 11" & MSL Eminent Ex cartridge linked to a CH Precision P1 Phono Stage and CH Precision X1 External Power Supply connected to my TOTL Headphone System consisting of a Hifiman EF1000 Amp and Susvara headphones (i.e. I am a critical music listener hence having quiet records is a must for me).
Hi Mark, I embarked on this series of tests to try and work out which ultrasonic cleaner to go for. I didn't include the KL due to the price, tbh. However From my memories of the home made unit (it was a friend's) and of using a Kirmuss, and then the HumminGuru I began to notice a '40kHz trait'. That was enough for me to go for the Degritter which since the tests I've used extensively with entirely predictable and all-positive resulyts.
I would add that IMO these are best considered as supplements to chemical / vacuum washing, in fact I've modified my regime since adding the Degritter to the process. Now I give records three different cleans on the Loricraft, then 'two rinses' on the Degritter. 'two rinses' could in fact be 3 long cycles with the first rinse solution and then another three with the final rinse. I'm basing my process on the listening results.
I have to say: you must have the most high-end headphone system I'm aware of!
@@DaveDenyer Hi Dave, Thank you for your reply. Very much appreciated and great food for thought which path I will take for purchasing my first URCM.
Great video dave , yeh ...just as I thought ... looks like the degritter is the one
Hi Mike, glad you enjoyed the video. You were 100% right!
Did u clean with the Loricraft after the Degritter to see if there was a further improvement?? Or with the Humming Guru? Complexity is all
I did try the HumminGuru then Loricraft but felt it added a slight veil. For me, chemicals / soak / ‘scrub’ vacuum followed by Ultrasonic worked best.
excactly,thats the way it should be dave! preclean loricraft/degritter@@DaveDenyer
It would be super if you could do a blind test after cleaning using each method. Great video.
Hi Marky, I did listen (not always, but sometimes, blind) after each clean: I didn’t move on to the next cleaning until I was satisfied I was familiar with the results. After three cleans I felt the chemical / vacuum cleaning had done all it could: even one cycle on either the Degritter or HumminGuru achieved something else. It was as these two fought it out differences / a sonic signature became more and more apparent.
Just out of interest can you say what piece of kit ever gave your system a similar upgrade to that obtained from the Degritter to give some idea as to the magnitude of the improvement?
Hi Ian, it’s certainly a major upgrade. To be honest since making the video (& thinking less ‘front of brain’ about it) every single record I’ve played has resulted in a Degriitter clean (or two). I can’t now unhear the benefits and can’t quite understand how I listened to anything without it.
It’s akin to a MAJOR turntable set-up /cartridge / phonostage upgrade. Certainly one that would cost far more than the price of the Degritter itself.
Cool that is quite a magnitude. @@DaveDenyer
That’s thrown a 🔧 in the works . Maybe I’ll start with the humming G then save for a year or two for the degritter
That's probably a good idea.
Just a heads up. Have you heard the new Arlo Parks album? Would be really interested to hear your thoughts.
@@dmd7472 no I haven’t but I’ll look it up. Thanks for the heads up.
Dave can I ask what turntable you use
Hi Richard, it's a Clearaudio Master Reference (AMG Wood, CMB version).
all those just show LP is a yesterday technology?
How close to Tape does it get an LP?
LOL good question: a bit closer. 😉
Audio Desk Glass ? I mean, why stop now?
I'm really interested in the Audiodesk to be honest. I am not 100% certain but I don't think it's actually a cavitation machine, and my current investigations / experiments have been to determine if differing ultrasonic machines: different frequencies, different power outputs etc., make any difference.
I was on the phone with them yesterday, asked about this because MF said it’s a “gurgle” machine, but they say it has transducers and rollers to deal with fingerprints, oils and such. I have one, will try to get a generic Chinese machine to compare. Thanks
Good to know it is cat friendly!
If you’ve got cats, it really is! 😻
I hope you're retired because this had to take hours upon hours to compile the results. The wife has to be a patient observer. 😆 Just subbed your channel.
LOL I used extreme cunning: I got my wife fully involved. Firstly, she jotted down my listening notes; having a second set of keen ears made listening to the differences more decisive, and, having witnessed the results herself she was not going to argue with the acquisition of the Degritter.
Glad you enjoyed the video, and thanks for subscribing.
@@DaveDenyer 49:47 I purchased a Degritter the other day and after cleaning 5 records using their solution I felt that it degraded the sound. It was as if a blanket was placed over the speakers. I'm a bit concerned at this. You mentioned that after "three" cleans the sound was excellent. Do you feel that it takes multiple cleanings to get good results?
I ran a separate tank with distilled water following the cleaning cycle.
To be honest I’ve settled on using distilled water with Ilfotol in a 0.03% solution, and following that with a pure distilled water rinse (although with such a dilute ‘wash’ I suspect I could skip the rinse).
I have experimented with other fluids & processes since making the video and am just about to make a new video covering this (& other related observations).
I’d suggest you perform a couple more pure water rinses and see if your LP sound better. And perhaps use less or none of the Degritter fluid.
@@DaveDenyer Thanks Dave! I just got a bottle of Tergikleen to try. I know it requires a good rinse so I will be doing that too. My 2nd tank will arrive on Monday. Have you tried Tergilkleen?
I’m not won over….a technical spectrum review found no improvement.
Hi Mario, I trust my ears and the listening experience above all else. In fact that's pretty much all I care about. I don't believe that half the things we can hear can be measured.
over an hour and never put a LP in and show us your process... beginning to end... pictures worth a 1.000 words?