Extremely well structured video, and clearly shows that you're knowledgable and experienced. Really appreciate that a video like this exists that has solid, complete information on how these mechanics work and how they're being tweaked. Very well done.
Wow this is such an incredible video. Informative, great editing and audio, wow. Everyone In this community needs to sub right now. Thank you for this bro
How is this your first video in 7 years? It has the feel of something someone with a lot of experience in making this kind of content puts out. Obviously super high effort and it pays off
Hey, i popped into your stream last beta. Great vid! As someone who went from rivals 1 to rivals 2, I'm among the crowd that feels confident in saying that aether studios is on their way to making the best plat fighter ever and just need a bit more time fine-tuning the mechanics. I realize that a lot of my mistakes and losses are coming from either bad habits or a lack of knowledge surrounding the system itself. Hope that folks in the rivals community don't throw too much heat your way for the last comment, some folks are mad that people are saying that "the game just isn't for them." It's a complicated subject and I don't necessarily think they're wrong for feeling that way, but I hope they can come around to appreciating what Rivals 2 will have to offer once the game is completely released.
CZcams out of nowhere with the top notch content from one of my favourite players from PM's prime. Boy do I miss being in college in 2014-2015. Rivals seems neat though!
Holy... By far one of the best Rivals 2 videos out there to date. I love the in-depth analysis you do and then explain further using your own experience. Just, top notch stuff right there.
Closing thoughts were so real -- it's a new game, let the devs cook! For real, though, it could be so much worse... I'm super excited to have a platform fighter that SLAPS this hard with a dev team that legitimately cares. Hopefully casuals will also latch on and it'll blow up the way we all pray for it to. Great edits, great sound balance, great structure, really enjoyed the video and I hope you'll keep this kind of content up! Really awesome to see you competing again as well, KING!
Subscribed! As a casual player dipping my toes into competitive platfighting, this is a fantastic video! No ragebait, good production, and you actually know what you're talking about. Looking forward to more content for R2 :)
This is a great video, by a very talented player, and with superb video editing. I'm leaving a comment in the hope CZcams decides to blast this video on every single human being's front page.
But to actually engage with the content of the video: I used to play Ivysaur in PM, a character especially weak to ASDI Down because she had a very slow grab, and a ton of multihit moves. It wasn't so bad for our aerials since we can drift in the air to follow our opponent's SDI, but we also had a couple ground-based multihits like ftilt, dtilt and jab, which were extremely weak to ASDI Down in most versions of the game. We did a lot of research on how to play around CC, for example by whiffing the first few hits of our multihit moves on purpose to give the opponent less time to ASDI Down. And we had a bunch of charts, for every single hitbox of every single one of our moves, and against every single character, of percentages after which using that hitbox became safe. I had to keep that file up to date with each balance patch, it was a whole ordeal. So yeah, nerds like me can definitely play around it. But... I think I'd still rather we didn't have to, to be honest. Shields are already a thing, and crouch cancel doesn't feel meaningfully different in its intent - all it does is that it reduces the design space of the game, by making large swathes of multihit move ideas completely unviable. In fact, PM's devs realized that being able to ASDI out of Ivysaur's ftilt as a reaction to being hit by it, was not great game design, so they fixed it... Three times, because they kept accidentally un-fixing it with further updates. That's the kind of fragility this mechanic brings to the game designers, that is not sustainable in the long term in my opinion. Even if counterplay exists, a mechanic needs to justify its existence, and bring something new to the table from a game design standpoint imo. And I'm not convinced that is the case for CC/ASDI Down. PM/P+ made the promise of emulating Melee's exact gameplay, so we were kind of stuck with that, but Rivals 2 has made no such promise and doen't have to carry that baggage if it doesn't want to. Competitive games are already fighting an uphill battle in terms of how hard it is to get people to try them out - I don't think we can really afford to have mechanics like these, which have a strong chance to turn new players away. To survive and thrive, I think games like ours have to work hard and try their best to earn the engagement of its players, rather than assume or demand it.
great video! as someone who has always heard these terms but never really understood them this video was SO informative and easy to understand. When you said you were working on a video I didnt think it would be like THIS, you popped off.
the backer tournament today I think confirmed that they're currently trying to implement reason #3 from your conclusion, or crouch canceling only being active during the full crouch. I really like the optimism in your video, generally I have seen a lot of positivity, but the top level rivals community has thrown a lot of shade around
This video honestly explains so much as to why I struggled with low percent combos as Wrastor when I first played the game. After playing for a bit I started to realize how to counter it, but off first impressions this explains why starting a combo felt so much harder without taking advantage of grabs, thanks for the explanation!
This was a masterfully crafted video, good lord! The information, the delivery, and the visuals are all on-point. Educational and concise! I'm convinced there can not be a better video on the current situation of crouch-canceling in Rivals 2. I can't even imagine the amount of work it took to make this. As a fellow long time PM player who immediately fell in love with Rivals 2, consider me a fan of this video and now your channel!
Just wanted to agree with all the other comments - great vid! Super comprehensive and well reasoned, and definitely appreciate the direct comparisons across games as a Melee player who's been interested in/following Rivals for a good while. Thanks!
I started noticing how strong cc was and began to opt in more grabs and jab poke > WD back or spot dodge. Just had to adapt. Rivals 2 is def not Rivals 1, but Im loving every second of it. As much as I loved R1. Amazing vid! Hope to see more in the future.
great video! i love cc/asdi down in p+ and this vid helped me figure out what was different. its def tru that cc helps aggressive play, it makes the scrap super fun
I wasn't even aware Rivals was getting a sequel but this looks so good. Nothing against the first one it had it's merits but this art style is so much more intuitive. Animations look smooth and the effects are looking solid from what I see so far. Thanks for putting me onto this, as an old PM player this looks fantastic. Also a really well made video and your passion for the game is clearly visible, good stuff!
I can see how its a good defensive option to help stop spamming but wouldn't it almost makes certain parts of characters kit useless if you can't even pop an enemy into a combo until 170% damage, that is just ridiculous.
also speaking from a very casual and not very good platform fighting player, (and after watching the complete video and seeing that they are actually working on it) , if its so easy to do couldn't that lead to essentially a skill check or skill floor where you have to be able to deal with CC or floor hugging to have any sort of success online if you opponent if area then can just hold down on the controller during lower precents. All this is coming from a very uneducated fighting game background and merely questions on how it could negatively affect players with lower skill or those who have not played fighting games with this mechanic at a pro or highly competitive level.
Amazing video, man. I remember copying everything your Lucas was doing back in the day when I played Project M haha. Rivals 2 is sick, and I agree it's poised to be the best Plat Fighter on the market if people give it a fair shot. Subscribed, and looking forward to more content!
Your late comment on now having grabd in rivals is such a good reminder of a meta shift. As a melee shiek player i love the defense vs grab fight, early stocks in melee became less who get first hit into who gets the right kind of hit. Really makes every game not become who can throw out enough modes till one lands into punishing bad attacks and earning smart hits. Prob could use some balancing, of less floorhugging and helping characters have hetter hit options. So excited for future of the game
"hyperflame... Why does that name sound familiar" *sees lucas and gets activated like a sleeper agent as a hundred hours of pm combo videos flash before my eyes*
my main issue with floor hugging in rivals 2 is really just how it forces a lot of neutral interactions into being about fishing for grabs, it makes interactions feel a bit samey, kinda like how out of shield just feels like its about hoping the opponent messes up spacing and you can grab them, it lacks a lot in variety, I dont want it to go away, I just want it to be toned down maybe make more moves able to cut through it earlier. For instance, ranno dtilt could be good for it in the way sheik dtilt was at dealing with it? I mean I think it already does but it would be nice if it did it a little better lol
This looks like a proper implementation of melee mechanics without tracing everything 1 to 1. I'm super excited to have something to play with friends that hate melee.
Very informative and entertaining video (I also got bored one time and coded ASDI down into rivals 1 using a buddy that i uploaded to the workshop, adequately labeled as the "ASDI Down Buddy")
Excellent video, the content is informative, the editing is clean and supportive of the information displayed. I hope this video makes rivals 2 as awesome as it can be on release! I feel like reason 2 of tumble threshold being too high is the biggest issue. If they are concerned about tech chases, they should consider making techrolls faster or further to compensate.
wow. just wanted to say that this video was put together so so well and organized and this is the most gameplay ive seen from the game. looks super good and cant wait to get my hands on it. very very exciting. well done again on the presentation
seeing a 3d rivals of aether game in 2024 after my last interaction with the game being oris release is genuinely the most unexpected thing i couldve thought of to see this year
Man fighting games get so crazy for the fast reactions and decision making you need at high levels. Makes the twitchy side of LOL look chill. I'm probably too old to get very good at Rivals 2, but its the 2nd fighting game I'm going to get into. Played some version of super smash bro's super casual when I was a kid.
it's a long time melee player, the rivals series has been the only one that's captured the smoothness in animation that melee had. I love p+, but the animation sometimes feels stiff/sharp. I started playing rivals 1 when it was in Early Access and really enjoyed it. trying to play it nowadays feels as one touch as dive kick. I get that a lot of rivals ones player base enjoys that, but I'm happy to have a game that blends beautiful animation, interesting characters, and a plethora of defensive options to balance the strict offense
this is too complicated for me, but I'm glad people care. I was wondering though, what if in addition to teching, characters also have a special tech that specifically counters techchasing? It would be a tech that, if no chasing happens, is vulnerable to any other move.
This is such a good example of someone who actually knows what they're talking about when it comes to platform fighters, and not just yapping and throwing out opinions.
great video! im glad this discussion is getting such a nuanced look in the community. i really only have one major counterpoint, being that i think the fact that grabs beat floorhugging is actually a pretty major problem (note that at this point, i'm really not trying to argue with the entire video so much as i am this one thing) so like for me so far, low-percent neutral in this game has basically been just "run away and look for grabs" with how the game is currently balanced, grab is really the only consistent way to start your gameplan without fighting for pokes until the mid-percents, and for a lot of people (myself included), that sort of gameplay really isn't that fun all of the rest of the "my turn" tools in the game dont get you enough reward for how much you risk trying to land them, and for people who like big flashy advantage states and quick phase transitions, that's really not a great thing. however, it clearly isn't so much an issue with crouch canceling as it is the core game systems, meaning its something dan and the team very clearly intended for the game -- essentially, those people just have to suck it up (dan has even said as much, i believe) however, i can't help but feel that floorhugging is a very weird wrench to throw in the mix here its just... well, you argue that its supposed to be a defensive tool to help prevent mashy neutral, but honestly, shields mightve been more than enough for that. comparatively speaking, adding the extra option just makes everything harder to handle for everyone, and personally, i think it's a rather inelegant solution to a design problem that could've been solved in much more intuitive ways. and, as an additional side effect, its another reason to either go for grab or run away and poke. it's incessantly polarizing. from an overall perspective, i think it'd be much better if the game could choose either slower neutral or less dominant advantage states -- because right now, it looks like the devs tried to choose both, and a bunch of wires (namely grabs) got crossed in the mix my suggestion would be that you should be able to crouch under grabs mostly because of the issues i just described, but also.... because it looks awesome .... so obviously that'd make CC and floorhugging and stuff overwhelming broken, but i think the issue isn't with them so much as it is the rest of the aggressive options in the game. if we buff all of those in such a way that gives shielding a reason to be preferred in the right scenario (spikes are a good option here), and leave crouching the way it is, we'd be able to experience a much more diverse neutral game anyway yea thats my two cents here
I’ve dabbled in most plat fighters competitively and cc is a necessary mechanic for them to function well. Every universal mechanic like air dodge, shield, ledges and now cc have been handled extremely well. So far looking like this is the greatest platform fighter to ever do it. Can’t wait to get my hands on the game
Personally I prefer CC as something I use on reaction to an incoming move rather than a read for it so I wouldn't like the increased start up time but I agree with a lot of the other tweaks and parry already fills the role of a read based tool so it'd be nice to still have CC as something that rewarded fast reactions. Like I'll be running around at full speed and only press down for the few frames I'm getting hit, THAT'S the kind of thing that should be rewarded. I am very nearly satisfied with the current state of CC, I think it does reward the better player and people will grow to appreciate it. I understand not wanting EVERYTHING to be a back and forth CC battle though
I'm not a competitive player by any stretch so take my comment with a big BIIIIIIIIIIIG grain of salt. Personally, what made the later Smash titles feel unsatisfying to me is how long it can feel to take down a stock, especially with floatier physics and better recovery options across most characters. It can help make for a more fair game, but not necessarily for a more fun game. Having a good grounded defensive option certainly isn't a bad thing. That's literally what shielding is. But from the sound of things, it seems like a universal super armor mechanic that could negatively impact character uniqueness. Simply tuning the frame data is probably the best solution, though one idea I had would be to add a sliding mechanic. Essentially it's knockback that sends you sliding along the ground instead of hurdling in the air. Not only would it be a way to differentiate itself from shielding more, add more branching follow-up options for both players and give heavy weights a buff by making them slide less who should be more defensive anyways.
Im not a fan of sdi, I dont think its intuative especially for begginers and does not add much aside letting you survive some multihits but it also makes it look kinda janky
also forget about the compettitive side just focus on casual first at somepoint i dont like melee players who are oppsessed with competitiveness to a point that any new game doesnt feel even finished or is just another clone from the start
CC and floorhugging are one of the many techniques that has given Melee and PM/+ the extra depth to still have an active competitive scene after so many years. It became OP in the last Rivals 2 beta and the knee-jerk reaction of people straight up calling the game a failure was just sad. It made no sense to attempt to change it mid beta weekend since as this video showed, there's a lot that goes into it. This is a beta that they are very much listening to the feedback and I enjoy being apart of playtesting and attempting to give feedback to try and make this become one of the best platform fighters, all while continuing to remember the devs are humans(so treat them like it). Saying you don't like something without going into any depth isn't feedback. Just claiming the game is trash or a lost cause, especially because you don't agree with their design decisions is akin to a child throwing a tantrum in a supermarket. It's obnoxious and unhelpful for everybody, take a nap. This video is a great breakdown of a very complex mechanic. On top of learning new things there was a ton of stuff that, while I knew of it, I didn't really know all the hows or whys of it so it was really nice to see that in-depth explaination of everything. Fantastic video that I hope will help people realize the how much goes into a mechanic like this, why people enjoy it, and that the dev team is taking advantage of the BETA portion to experiment and fine tune this into a great game.
This is the mechanic that makes me not want to get into competitive P+, and as a dev of a spin-off build, competitively balancing characters with it in mind is miserable. I hate this mechanic so much. Getting hit for hitting my (not blocking) opponent is just insane if its not under special or specific circumstances. "They held down on the floor". Fucking dumb. Oh well. Good game anyway.
I will be honest I think I prefer wiff-lag. As a solution to solving mindless spammy offense. I should get punished if I throw out a move and miss, but if I throw out a move and connect I should at least break even. It results in characters with good high speed buttons having to play with much more precision, especially if the wiff lag is substantial enough to give characters with slower buttons meaningful openings. Crouch Cancelling (or ASDI down) Is less intuiative, not only because you can punish a person for landing an attack but I as a player have to learn that inspite of my every instinct telling me that my best choice here is to dodge and then counter or block my actual best choice is to hold down and use a combo of knockback reduction and hitstun cancelation to weave in a counter attack in the middle of my opponents combo. It is things like this that make fighting games so indecipherable to people. like I didnt know for example that in both smashbros and RA1 that crouching actually reduced hitstun, so we have these undocumented mechanics running around that result in unintuitive decisions that end up with players getting punished for ostensibly achieving the goal of an engagement.
cancel culture has gone too far
cancel culture has come for crouch canceling
But who invented it?
This is such a good comment that I wanna steal the joke
😂
@texasfirst3991 some intern who left the code that prevents special moves being done while your doing normals.
"but first, we need to talk about Parallel Universes"
So good lmfao
This might be the best, most in-depth video surrounding the ASDI/CC/Floorhugging mechanics in R2 we've had. And the editing is top notch too!
Extremely well structured video, and clearly shows that you're knowledgable and experienced. Really appreciate that a video like this exists that has solid, complete information on how these mechanics work and how they're being tweaked. Very well done.
I agree! Its so refreshing to have a video like this.
Followed instructions and got confused, now the floor won't stop hugging ME!
Loved this, great video dude
Glad you liked it! Your videos were an inspiration 😁
Wow this is such an incredible video. Informative, great editing and audio, wow. Everyone In this community needs to sub right now. Thank you for this bro
How is this your first video in 7 years? It has the feel of something someone with a lot of experience in making this kind of content puts out. Obviously super high effort and it pays off
Thanks! Technically, I made the Project+ trailer too! But that's still a 4 year gap, lol
Hey, i popped into your stream last beta. Great vid! As someone who went from rivals 1 to rivals 2, I'm among the crowd that feels confident in saying that aether studios is on their way to making the best plat fighter ever and just need a bit more time fine-tuning the mechanics. I realize that a lot of my mistakes and losses are coming from either bad habits or a lack of knowledge surrounding the system itself. Hope that folks in the rivals community don't throw too much heat your way for the last comment, some folks are mad that people are saying that "the game just isn't for them." It's a complicated subject and I don't necessarily think they're wrong for feeling that way, but I hope they can come around to appreciating what Rivals 2 will have to offer once the game is completely released.
Never thought of this style of defense as a comeback mechanic. Great vid, love all the extra game footage of stuff I hadn’t seen yet
Also spikes beating floor hug is a cool iteration on high-low mix in FGs
@@heyitsmort7744 you can punish spiked CC's/floorhug w/e with FF jab reset. Very easy to do against hold downers.
CZcams out of nowhere with the top notch content from one of my favourite players from PM's prime.
Boy do I miss being in college in 2014-2015.
Rivals seems neat though!
Holy... By far one of the best Rivals 2 videos out there to date. I love the in-depth analysis you do and then explain further using your own experience. Just, top notch stuff right there.
Closing thoughts were so real -- it's a new game, let the devs cook! For real, though, it could be so much worse... I'm super excited to have a platform fighter that SLAPS this hard with a dev team that legitimately cares. Hopefully casuals will also latch on and it'll blow up the way we all pray for it to.
Great edits, great sound balance, great structure, really enjoyed the video and I hope you'll keep this kind of content up! Really awesome to see you competing again as well, KING!
I clicked the video and was like, "Ha. This dude kinda sounds like HyperFlame." Then 1:04 hit, and i was like 😮
My brain... its getting bigger WITH KNOWLEDGE
Subscribed! As a casual player dipping my toes into competitive platfighting, this is a fantastic video! No ragebait, good production, and you actually know what you're talking about. Looking forward to more content for R2 :)
After 7 years the legend returns
:)
excellent video, breaking the issue into different parts to make viewers understand how it works and theorizing solutions for it
I wasnt a fan of the art style honestly
But watching it in motion.. holy shit
I want to play it now
I Hope the roster is good/likeable
Such a good video! A great, nuanced take with well thought out and informative arguments. Great to see you back, Hyperflame!
This is a great video, by a very talented player, and with superb video editing. I'm leaving a comment in the hope CZcams decides to blast this video on every single human being's front page.
But to actually engage with the content of the video:
I used to play Ivysaur in PM, a character especially weak to ASDI Down because she had a very slow grab, and a ton of multihit moves. It wasn't so bad for our aerials since we can drift in the air to follow our opponent's SDI, but we also had a couple ground-based multihits like ftilt, dtilt and jab, which were extremely weak to ASDI Down in most versions of the game.
We did a lot of research on how to play around CC, for example by whiffing the first few hits of our multihit moves on purpose to give the opponent less time to ASDI Down. And we had a bunch of charts, for every single hitbox of every single one of our moves, and against every single character, of percentages after which using that hitbox became safe. I had to keep that file up to date with each balance patch, it was a whole ordeal.
So yeah, nerds like me can definitely play around it. But... I think I'd still rather we didn't have to, to be honest. Shields are already a thing, and crouch cancel doesn't feel meaningfully different in its intent - all it does is that it reduces the design space of the game, by making large swathes of multihit move ideas completely unviable. In fact, PM's devs realized that being able to ASDI out of Ivysaur's ftilt as a reaction to being hit by it, was not great game design, so they fixed it... Three times, because they kept accidentally un-fixing it with further updates. That's the kind of fragility this mechanic brings to the game designers, that is not sustainable in the long term in my opinion.
Even if counterplay exists, a mechanic needs to justify its existence, and bring something new to the table from a game design standpoint imo. And I'm not convinced that is the case for CC/ASDI Down. PM/P+ made the promise of emulating Melee's exact gameplay, so we were kind of stuck with that, but Rivals 2 has made no such promise and doen't have to carry that baggage if it doesn't want to.
Competitive games are already fighting an uphill battle in terms of how hard it is to get people to try them out - I don't think we can really afford to have mechanics like these, which have a strong chance to turn new players away. To survive and thrive, I think games like ours have to work hard and try their best to earn the engagement of its players, rather than assume or demand it.
Great video! I'll definitely send it to my non-melee/P+ playing friends that are trying out RoA2 and haven't experienced cc before.
great video! as someone who has always heard these terms but never really understood them this video was SO informative and easy to understand. When you said you were working on a video I didnt think it would be like THIS, you popped off.
the backer tournament today I think confirmed that they're currently trying to implement reason #3 from your conclusion, or crouch canceling only being active during the full crouch. I really like the optimism in your video, generally I have seen a lot of positivity, but the top level rivals community has thrown a lot of shade around
Such clean editing, really great video!
This video honestly explains so much as to why I struggled with low percent combos as Wrastor when I first played the game.
After playing for a bit I started to realize how to counter it, but off first impressions this explains why starting a combo felt so much harder without taking advantage of grabs, thanks for the explanation!
This was a masterfully crafted video, good lord!
The information, the delivery, and the visuals are all on-point.
Educational and concise!
I'm convinced there can not be a better video on the current situation of crouch-canceling in Rivals 2.
I can't even imagine the amount of work it took to make this.
As a fellow long time PM player who immediately fell in love with Rivals 2, consider me a fan of this video and now your channel!
Just wanted to agree with all the other comments - great vid! Super comprehensive and well reasoned, and definitely appreciate the direct comparisons across games as a Melee player who's been interested in/following Rivals for a good while. Thanks!
Did a great job with this, looking forward to where you go from here!
I started noticing how strong cc was and began to opt in more grabs and jab poke > WD back or spot dodge. Just had to adapt. Rivals 2 is def not Rivals 1, but Im loving every second of it. As much as I loved R1.
Amazing vid! Hope to see more in the future.
Fantastic video, great editing and explanations
Yoo just found your channel after seeing a decades worth of your lucas play. Great video!
great video! i love cc/asdi down in p+ and this vid helped me figure out what was different. its def tru that cc helps aggressive play, it makes the scrap super fun
Please make more videos like this ❤ Super helpful as someone trying to get into Rivals to see all these comparisons.
I wasn't even aware Rivals was getting a sequel but this looks so good. Nothing against the first one it had it's merits but this art style is so much more intuitive. Animations look smooth and the effects are looking solid from what I see so far. Thanks for putting me onto this, as an old PM player this looks fantastic. Also a really well made video and your passion for the game is clearly visible, good stuff!
I can see how its a good defensive option to help stop spamming but wouldn't it almost makes certain parts of characters kit useless if you can't even pop an enemy into a combo until 170% damage, that is just ridiculous.
also speaking from a very casual and not very good platform fighting player, (and after watching the complete video and seeing that they are actually working on it) , if its so easy to do couldn't that lead to essentially a skill check or skill floor where you have to be able to deal with CC or floor hugging to have any sort of success online if you opponent if area then can just hold down on the controller during lower precents. All this is coming from a very uneducated fighting game background and merely questions on how it could negatively affect players with lower skill or those who have not played fighting games with this mechanic at a pro or highly competitive level.
Amazing video, man. I remember copying everything your Lucas was doing back in the day when I played Project M haha. Rivals 2 is sick, and I agree it's poised to be the best Plat Fighter on the market if people give it a fair shot. Subscribed, and looking forward to more content!
Your late comment on now having grabd in rivals is such a good reminder of a meta shift. As a melee shiek player i love the defense vs grab fight, early stocks in melee became less who get first hit into who gets the right kind of hit. Really makes every game not become who can throw out enough modes till one lands into punishing bad attacks and earning smart hits.
Prob could use some balancing, of less floorhugging and helping characters have hetter hit options. So excited for future of the game
Instant sub. Looking forward to more good content man!
Glad to see you're still making content
Super looking forward to more Rivals content!
i think its time we redo all this asdi and ssdi. shits confusing as hell
its not
damn this is a good video, everything so clearly articulated! good work!
This video was incredible. Your knowledge and experience shines through in the clear and detailed explanation of the mechanics.
Dude thank you!!! I’ve been wondering about exactly how CC works!!! This is exactly what I needed.
"hyperflame... Why does that name sound familiar" *sees lucas and gets activated like a sleeper agent as a hundred hours of pm combo videos flash before my eyes*
my main issue with floor hugging in rivals 2 is really just how it forces a lot of neutral interactions into being about fishing for grabs, it makes interactions feel a bit samey, kinda like how out of shield just feels like its about hoping the opponent messes up spacing and you can grab them, it lacks a lot in variety, I dont want it to go away, I just want it to be toned down maybe make more moves able to cut through it earlier. For instance, ranno dtilt could be good for it in the way sheik dtilt was at dealing with it? I mean I think it already does but it would be nice if it did it a little better lol
This looks like a proper implementation of melee mechanics without tracing everything 1 to 1. I'm super excited to have something to play with friends that hate melee.
Dude great content!
Very informative and entertaining video (I also got bored one time and coded ASDI down into rivals 1 using a buddy that i uploaded to the workshop, adequately labeled as the "ASDI Down Buddy")
Excellent video, the content is informative, the editing is clean and supportive of the information displayed. I hope this video makes rivals 2 as awesome as it can be on release!
I feel like reason 2 of tumble threshold being too high is the biggest issue. If they are concerned about tech chases, they should consider making techrolls faster or further to compensate.
this is my first time seeing rivals two and i never dreamed it would look this CRISP
I am way too Street Fighter 6 pilled right now. My mind immediately went to crouching medium kick driverush cancel
great video, I loved your Lucas back in the day.
Wow, really well made video, very in depth but to the point at the same time
fantastic video, great work!
wow. just wanted to say that this video was put together so so well and organized and this is the most gameplay ive seen from the game. looks super good and cant wait to get my hands on it. very very exciting. well done again on the presentation
amazing video. I didn't know there was so much depth into crouch canceling.
seeing a 3d rivals of aether game in 2024 after my last interaction with the game being oris release is genuinely the most unexpected thing i couldve thought of to see this year
Man fighting games get so crazy for the fast reactions and decision making you need at high levels. Makes the twitchy side of LOL look chill. I'm probably too old to get very good at Rivals 2, but its the 2nd fighting game I'm going to get into. Played some version of super smash bro's super casual when I was a kid.
it's a long time melee player, the rivals series has been the only one that's captured the smoothness in animation that melee had.
I love p+, but the animation sometimes feels stiff/sharp.
I started playing rivals 1 when it was in Early Access and really enjoyed it. trying to play it nowadays feels as one touch as dive kick.
I get that a lot of rivals ones player base enjoys that, but I'm happy to have a game that blends beautiful animation, interesting characters, and a plethora of defensive options to balance the strict offense
very nicely done
is this the project m lucas dude
Excellent video man, i hope this game blows up when it launches, or at least overtime. The best platform fighting game of the modern generation.
this is too complicated for me, but I'm glad people care.
I was wondering though, what if in addition to teching, characters also have a special tech that specifically counters techchasing? It would be a tech that, if no chasing happens, is vulnerable to any other move.
Thank you for this. I feel much more educated on the subject as before I felt like I couldn't even form an opinion. Well done!
Love the details you go into. Makes me miss the hard analytical side of Smash. Great stuff
Ohhh so it’s like overheads and high or low blocking in traditional fighting games. That’s pretty cool.
This felt like watching a Direct. High quality and thorough video.
HYPERFLAME LIKES THE HYPERGAME DESPITE FLOORHUGGING BEING HYPERLAME! HE'S TO BE HYPERBLAMED AND HYPERSHAMED!
unfortunately a bar
This is such a good example of someone who actually knows what they're talking about when it comes to platform fighters, and not just yapping and throwing out opinions.
great video! im glad this discussion is getting such a nuanced look in the community. i really only have one major counterpoint, being that i think the fact that grabs beat floorhugging is actually a pretty major problem
(note that at this point, i'm really not trying to argue with the entire video so much as i am this one thing)
so like
for me so far, low-percent neutral in this game has basically been just "run away and look for grabs"
with how the game is currently balanced, grab is really the only consistent way to start your gameplan without fighting for pokes until the mid-percents, and for a lot of people (myself included), that sort of gameplay really isn't that fun
all of the rest of the "my turn" tools in the game dont get you enough reward for how much you risk trying to land them, and for people who like big flashy advantage states and quick phase transitions, that's really not a great thing. however, it clearly isn't so much an issue with crouch canceling as it is the core game systems, meaning its something dan and the team very clearly intended for the game -- essentially, those people just have to suck it up (dan has even said as much, i believe)
however, i can't help but feel that floorhugging is a very weird wrench to throw in the mix here
its just... well, you argue that its supposed to be a defensive tool to help prevent mashy neutral, but honestly, shields mightve been more than enough for that. comparatively speaking, adding the extra option just makes everything harder to handle for everyone, and personally, i think it's a rather inelegant solution to a design problem that could've been solved in much more intuitive ways. and, as an additional side effect, its another reason to either go for grab or run away and poke. it's incessantly polarizing.
from an overall perspective, i think it'd be much better if the game could choose either slower neutral or less dominant advantage states -- because right now, it looks like the devs tried to choose both, and a bunch of wires (namely grabs) got crossed in the mix
my suggestion would be that you should be able to crouch under grabs
mostly because of the issues i just described, but also.... because it looks awesome
....
so obviously that'd make CC and floorhugging and stuff overwhelming broken, but i think the issue isn't with them so much as it is the rest of the aggressive options in the game. if we buff all of those in such a way that gives shielding a reason to be preferred in the right scenario (spikes are a good option here), and leave crouching the way it is, we'd be able to experience a much more diverse neutral game
anyway yea thats my two cents here
all i took from this video is that platform fighters finally have overheads and i think thats a great thing
great video!
Easiest way to balance crouch-cancelling is to give every character Peach dsmash
HYPERGOAT
Just tell the Ganon spamming down B "Screw your CC" and keep them in the air
I need to actually play the beta, I gave them money but never went through the process of getting it. I'll do so now, thanks for the motivation!
This is so helpful, thank you.
You scared the shit out of me when you said you needed to talk about alternet universes
His hair looks like a Lego peace
Finally a voice of reason... great video!
My man! The goat Lucas HYPER!!!❤❤❤❤
Cannot wait for this game
fire content. hoping for more
I’ve dabbled in most plat fighters competitively and cc is a necessary mechanic for them to function well. Every universal mechanic like air dodge, shield, ledges and now cc have been handled extremely well. So far looking like this is the greatest platform fighter to ever do it. Can’t wait to get my hands on the game
I'm all for this mechanic just being removed. I feel like having it only serves to cheapen the parry mechanic.
ngl rivals 2 is looking like it will become THE platform fighter
Great video loved how you explained all this tech, think the background music was a bit too loud tho
Personally I prefer CC as something I use on reaction to an incoming move rather than a read for it so I wouldn't like the increased start up time but I agree with a lot of the other tweaks and parry already fills the role of a read based tool so it'd be nice to still have CC as something that rewarded fast reactions. Like I'll be running around at full speed and only press down for the few frames I'm getting hit, THAT'S the kind of thing that should be rewarded. I am very nearly satisfied with the current state of CC, I think it does reward the better player and people will grow to appreciate it. I understand not wanting EVERYTHING to be a back and forth CC battle though
I'm not a competitive player by any stretch so take my comment with a big BIIIIIIIIIIIG grain of salt.
Personally, what made the later Smash titles feel unsatisfying to me is how long it can feel to take down a stock, especially with floatier physics and better recovery options across most characters. It can help make for a more fair game, but not necessarily for a more fun game.
Having a good grounded defensive option certainly isn't a bad thing. That's literally what shielding is. But from the sound of things, it seems like a universal super armor mechanic that could negatively impact character uniqueness.
Simply tuning the frame data is probably the best solution, though one idea I had would be to add a sliding mechanic. Essentially it's knockback that sends you sliding along the ground instead of hurdling in the air. Not only would it be a way to differentiate itself from shielding more, add more branching follow-up options for both players and give heavy weights a buff by making them slide less who should be more defensive anyways.
Im not a fan of sdi, I dont think its intuative especially for begginers and does not add much aside letting you survive some multihits but it also makes it look kinda janky
The goat uploaded
also forget about the compettitive side just focus on casual first at somepoint i dont like melee players who are oppsessed with competitiveness to a point that any new game doesnt feel even finished or is just another clone from the start
CC and floorhugging are one of the many techniques that has given Melee and PM/+ the extra depth to still have an active competitive scene after so many years. It became OP in the last Rivals 2 beta and the knee-jerk reaction of people straight up calling the game a failure was just sad. It made no sense to attempt to change it mid beta weekend since as this video showed, there's a lot that goes into it. This is a beta that they are very much listening to the feedback and I enjoy being apart of playtesting and attempting to give feedback to try and make this become one of the best platform fighters, all while continuing to remember the devs are humans(so treat them like it). Saying you don't like something without going into any depth isn't feedback. Just claiming the game is trash or a lost cause, especially because you don't agree with their design decisions is akin to a child throwing a tantrum in a supermarket. It's obnoxious and unhelpful for everybody, take a nap.
This video is a great breakdown of a very complex mechanic. On top of learning new things there was a ton of stuff that, while I knew of it, I didn't really know all the hows or whys of it so it was really nice to see that in-depth explaination of everything. Fantastic video that I hope will help people realize the how much goes into a mechanic like this, why people enjoy it, and that the dev team is taking advantage of the BETA portion to experiment and fine tune this into a great game.
Great video on a great game!
This is the mechanic that makes me not want to get into competitive P+, and as a dev of a spin-off build, competitively balancing characters with it in mind is miserable. I hate this mechanic so much. Getting hit for hitting my (not blocking) opponent is just insane if its not under special or specific circumstances. "They held down on the floor". Fucking dumb. Oh well. Good game anyway.
🔥🔥
I will be honest I think I prefer wiff-lag. As a solution to solving mindless spammy offense. I should get punished if I throw out a move and miss, but if I throw out a move and connect I should at least break even. It results in characters with good high speed buttons having to play with much more precision, especially if the wiff lag is substantial enough to give characters with slower buttons meaningful openings.
Crouch Cancelling (or ASDI down) Is less intuiative, not only because you can punish a person for landing an attack but I as a player have to learn that inspite of my every instinct telling me that my best choice here is to dodge and then counter or block my actual best choice is to hold down and use a combo of knockback reduction and hitstun cancelation to weave in a counter attack in the middle of my opponents combo.
It is things like this that make fighting games so indecipherable to people. like I didnt know for example that in both smashbros and RA1 that crouching actually reduced hitstun, so we have these undocumented mechanics running around that result in unintuitive decisions that end up with players getting punished for ostensibly achieving the goal of an engagement.