What is the Lifespan of a Tesla Battery and How Long Will it Last?
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- čas přidán 12. 04. 2017
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Haters love to claim that the Tesla car batteries, the ones that power the car, will only last 2 years or less. Well, now we have some data coming from actual owners and their experiences.
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Maarten Steinbuch blog about Tesla Model S battery degradation data - steinbuch.wordpress.com/2015/...
As the data shows owners are experiencing greater than 93% battery retention after 220,000 miles of driving. This is incredible as many owners aren't likely to drive their car this far nor retain the car for much after.
These data are encouraging that owners of used CPO Teslas, like myself, will have a great time ahead of ourselves without any worry about replacing the battery.
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// Tesla Model S Batery (src: wikipedia.org)
In 2012, the EPA range for the 60 kWh battery pack model was 208 mi (335 km)[86] and the 85 kWh battery was 265 miles (426 km).[87][88] According to Musk, the Model S has a battery with twice the energy density of that on the Nissan Leaf, but the difference in range is more than double. This is also due to other factors such as drag coefficient, weight, motor efficiency and rolling resistance.[89] Musk stated that driving at 65 mph (105 km/h), under normal conditions, gives a reasonable range of 250 miles (400 km).[90]
The energy-saving sleep state powers off the display and other vehicle electronics, after the car goes to sleep. This increases the time it takes the touchscreen and instrument panel to become usable. This mode can decrease the loss of the car's range when not being used (2.3 mi, 3.7 km per day, as of 2013).[91]
The 85 kWh battery pack weighs 1,200 lb (540 kg)[92][better source needed] and contains 7,104 lithium-ion battery cells in 16 modules[93] wired in series (14 in the flat section and two stacked on the front).[94] Each module contains 6 groups[95] of 74 cells[96] wired in parallel; the 6 groups are then wired in series within the module.[96][97][98][99] As of June 2012, the battery pack used modified Panasonic cells with nickel-cobalt-aluminum cathodes.[4] Each cell was of the 18650 form factor (i.e., an 18 mm diameter, 65 mm height cylinder), similar to the Panasonic NCR18650B cell that has an energy density of 265 Wh/kg.[100] Analysts estimate battery cost to be around 21-22% of the car cost.[101] List price for a replacement battery was US$44,000 in February 2015.[102]
The battery is guaranteed for eight years or 125,000 miles (200,000 km in metric countries) for the base model with the 60 kWh battery pack. The 85 kWh battery pack is guaranteed for eight years and unlimited miles.[103][104] A poll among drivers indicate that accumulated battery loss steadies around 5% after 30,000 miles (50,000 km),[73][105] decreasing further about 1% per additional 30,000 miles. Unlike Nissan, Tesla does not specify a limit for battery loss, but some early battery packs have been replaced.[102][106]
A separate battery replacement guarantee takes effect after the eighth year at a cost of US$10,000 for the 60 kWh battery and US$12,000 for the 85 kWh battery.[107]
In 2013, Tesla canceled a 40 kWh version of the car due to lack of demand, stating that only 4% of pre-orders were for the 40 kWh battery option. Customers who ordered this option instead received the 60 kWh pack, with charge software-limited to 40 kWh (139 miles, 224 km[108]). It has the improved acceleration and top speed of the bigger pack and can be upgraded to use the full 60 kWh for US$11,000.[109]
On April 8, 2015, Tesla discontinued the Model S 60, and replaced the base model with the Model S 70.[110]
In 2015, Tesla introduced a 70 kWh battery to replace the existing 60 kWh batteries and base 60 kWh Model S vehicles, as the 60 was low margin and not sufficiently welcomed by customers.[111][112] All 70 kWh cars can be had with rear-wheel drive or all wheel drive.[113] The 60 was re-introduced in 2016 as a software-limited 75, upgradable to 75.
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As a guy who spent hours making scattergraphs in powerpoint using Nissan Leaf forum data to make sheets very similar to this, I find this absolutely beautiful.
+tapeandpencil that means a ton to me, thank you!
Why not simply call your channel Teslanomics
wrg
It's interesting lithium batteries perform better in colder climates and hates heat while lead acid battery loves the heat, but hates the cold.
Good luck not recharging a lead acid battery in 3 days during the winter, it'll be dead. During the summer, my lead acid battery can last about 4-5 days without charge.
Now only if scientists would hurry up with the Graphene Super Capacitors with the capacity equal to or greater than lithium, those would hold charges indefinitely regardless of weather.
Once those Graphene batteries take off all of the people that talked shit about Tesla are going to look really stupid as those of us that are investing are laughing all the way to the bank.
This is one of those videos where I have to ask, who would be so ridiculous to dislike this video? This is such valuable information, nothing to not admire about what your bringing and the way your bringing it! Thanks so much!
[Ricky] This is brilliant, Ben, we get so many comments about how one should NEVER buy a used Tesla because they'll have to spend 10k+ on a new battery pack. It really speaks to the idea of "state of charge" and how little people understand it... and how WELL Tesla, and other EV producers do.
When the Prius came out, there were zillions of "automotive authorities" cranking out comments warning potential buyers that Prius batteries were going to wear out after a couple of years and cost at least $10,000 to replace. In real life, the batteries are very long-lasting, and the rebuilding cost has dropped drastically.
Great data analysis. I'm impressed that a few owners with more than 200K+ on the odometer have still retained 93%+ battery capacity. What I'd really like to know if WHY one owner after just 32K miles only has 85% capacity...? What has caused such an early precipitous drop? Number of SuperCharges? Trickle charging? Competing at the racetrack? Mountain driving? Climate?
+Mark D Larsen check out the link to the spreadsheet, tons of variables there to comb through. Let me know if you find it!
Hmm. The owner is in the USA. The closest "match" I can find is a Model S 60 that drives 84.6 miles per day, averaging 300W per mile, with SuperCharging (monthly), 100% charge (weekly), almost empty (a few times per year), daily charge level (90%). Other owners are pushing their cars harder and farther than that, but retain much more capacity. That's about it with the variables. Odd.
Mark D Larsen looks like the batteries prefer to be depleted and recharged rather than a more conservative or moderate use
We drive electric motorcycles in our country. The life of a lithium battery depends more if you charge often on partial use vs those who deplete the batt fully then charge it.
Put another way, if 2 cars had both 100,000km of use, but the one that charges often on partial use and does not let the batt drain near empty, that one will have a longer lifespan vs those who wait till it's empty or near empty before charging.
Batteries don't get stressed as much if they are charged often. Thus if your max range is 320km per full charge, charging your batts even with 30-60km of use is good for prolonging the life and having a longer range even if the car has gone 100,00km in the odometer. Waiting for it to be near empty, or charging it at 200km or 270km shortens the battery life.
Another thing - fast charging is stressful and unless you have to, use regular charging only. If you fill in your batts even no short runs, it will charge quickly even on slow charging. Fast charging shortens batt life. So, avoid it if possible.
This is also another reason why, even if your trips for the day is only 60-80km round trip total, you should get a 300-500km max range car or batt. If you are near the max range of 120-160km or 50-60% of your maximum, that shortens your battery life too. The farther you are from your maximum, the good for longevity.
Driving aggressively or lots of rabit starts stresses the battery too. Steady and even runs help also the life of lithium batts.
If used well, these batts can last 8-12 years. And normally, they just don't die abruptyly unless there are defective cells. But even that, can be discovered early and the erring cells can just be replaced, not the entire pack. Lithium usually just gets lesser range and to a degree lesser max power as they age. If once you can reliably hit 320km, maybe in 5 years, you are down to 280km. You won't know that if you are just running sub 100km for your trips. You'll only notice that once you go for long drives. But if you are driving sub 100km ranges and charging often, most likely you will still hit 300km max range if you have to. There really isn't any reason to worry about this if your usage is low. Even going to 200-230max range occassionally will not likely be bad for your batteries.
Most agree that not going above 50-60% of your maximum range and charging often before it goes above that, gives you more longevity. This is why charging often even if you've gone only 30-50km is good for your batteries instead of waiting till you hit 150-200km before you charge.
This explains why you can get 80-90% life on some cars with so low mileage while others who have crossed 100,00km still get so long a life left.
A Tesla battery that's used moderately and charged minimally, such as with somebody who travels 40 km each day and then charges daily, might start showing a drop in capacity. However it's likely a calibration issue to a large extent, or solely a calibration issue. If that battery is then depleted (down to 20 miles of remaining range or so), then charged to 100%, then driven until the battery is somewhat low, then when it's charged again it will show a more accurate figure. More conservative use can result in little or no range loss.
Great video. I appreciate all the work you put into the data and presenting this information. Thanks!
Thanks Matt!
Thank you so much for your videos. I feel more enthusiastic about data analysis / visualization because of your work. :)
This is another great video, Ben. I really enjoy your thorough analysis and rock-hard, fundamented sources for your results. Excellent, this stuff is as good as a published paper.
That means a lot! Thank you Alexander!
Well done mate. Good work, and like that you incorporated all info, and did NOT cherry pick. Excellent.
Ben, a huge determinant to battery life is depth of charge and discharge. Someone who charges to no more than 85% and discharges no lower than 15% will get a lot more life out of their EV battery than someone who charges to 100% a lot and discharges down below 10%. It's called "babying the battery". Same goes for your smartphone battery too. At least Tesla lets you stop the charge at 85%... the Chevy Bolt will not. I guess GM wants its customers buying batteries.
+health101DOTorg yeah I'm familiar and I believe these readings were after taking it to zero and charging up to 100% - check Maartens blog for more on the methodology
So a graph based on zero to 100% charging would look very different than a graph based on 15-85% charging. Just say'n.
it's called "spring theory" (my name), not too much compress and stretch
Bolt has hilltop mode that stops charging at 90%.
@@BenSullinsOfficial
I doubt they took it to 0%, or they'd have carefully ranged it so come complete stop in front of charge station plug every time....but close? Maybe...
Look up facebook moochs battery review/military testing...for battery performance/degrade characteristics... Even SONY's old VTC5A is better/smaller than tesla s 2018 new 21700 batteries now!
Where can I find an up-to-date version of this graph? It looks like this video was from 5 years ago so I'm looking for another ~5 years of data. Thank you, your help is much appreciated.
One of the best subscription pitches ever.
Great video but couple questions, did the data show a greater battery degradation with the way people charged their car? Is it better to charge it 0-100 or charge it more often?
thanks for putting this thing together
I always was curios about these kinds of batteries
Great video and analysis. Loved it. But how can remaining capacity be higher than 100% for some instances?
93%after 260,000 Kms!!! that's an amazingly durable machine!
I call bs. Tesla must have a magic battery.
Fascinating video once again!
Enjoyed this one a lot.
Good stuff. My LEAF is coming up on 6 years old. Down 3 bars from new at 76,000 miles. But holding really well now at 75% (more than a year). Our Model X has lost 3 miles of charge range at 80% SOC. This is at 18,000 miles on the battery. Really nice to know the Tesla battery is going to hold up much better then the Nissan battery.
Subscribed! Keep up the great work and informative videos :)
thank you for this. I've been talking to a lot of people about electric cars recently mainly because i'm interested in getting one myself in the future. there are a lot of doubts from people who i spoke with regarding the battery capacity degrading after a short period of time. they're mainly comparing with the batteries of smart phones which loses a noticeable amount of capacity after a year or so.
Thanks! I always wondered this exact question and the cost replacing one out of warranty.
+Johnny new data on this is out, stay tuned for an updated video
Thanks a lot for this analysis! The more cars will be on the road even better statistics will be available!. According with this data set, about 9% degradation is observed after first 500 recharging cycles (approximately 100,000 miles). This is a very impressive achievement!
I think I can hear some noise in the audio. Is there any way you can reduce the noise?
223K miles with above a 93% full charge capacity.
Thank U.... didn’t need a science lecture...just straight to the point..
Awesome! Just what I needed. Thanks!
I wonder how much will cost the first maintenance and when this will be?
just was at the tesla dealer earlier yesterday am, they recommended not to supercharge very frequently if you don't have to as it charges with a direct current as opposed actually which then goes through the cars investor. there was this one company which was using their superchargers twice a day as they had a limo type service and after 2 years, their batteries had degraded 30%. I personally have been torn on buying a used tesla with original autopilot and free supercharge get with a bigger battery and ,ore options vs a new tesla which is still more expensive after tax credit with much smaller battery but with enhanced auto pilot.
great job, thanks for the analysis
Also, is there data for the Prius batteries?
u made me more close to model 3. thnx sir
absolute informative. thanks man :-)
Very nice information! Thanks!
Hey, any chance you have data for the change in range with ambient temperature or any such data sets?
Like the one by fleetcarma
+Shashank Sripad have you looked at Teslab?
Excellent job mate ! Thank you !!!
Awesome! Just got my Model 3 after being on the fence about it for months. Very good analysis! Now I'm even more glad I bought the car. Oh, and the $7,500 tax credit.. WOOHOO!
I tried every link and couldn't find the chart...just the spreadsheet. Am I missing something?
Can you also put different colors for each region/country?
wow, very informative and interesting, thanks.
Really great work man
good stuff man =)
Thanks!
Would like to see a video which discusses what you will do with the battery when it does need to be replaced along with the cost. What is the recycle plan, where will those being recycled be stored and what is the cost of battery compared to the cost of the car say over a 15 year lifecycle.
Great analysis... this chart will encourage everyone who still thinks an e-Vehicle can't be a long-term buy!
Ben
Where is the interactive graph you used?
Thx Ben. Found it
Good video, good information. Thanks!
great job,thx
Thanks, Ben, for tackling this subject! A related subject with battery life is how people recharge their batteries to maximize battery life. Not all charging regimens are alike! I have followed the Tesla forums since 2012, and several years ago there was a discussion about the best way to recharge. We were lucky that a Tesla engineer participated in our discussion. What he said changed the way I recharge everything, including my smartphone! He said that a fuel tank is a terrible metaphor for a rechargeable battery. Most people think you fill up the battery like filling your fuel tank, then use up the battery and top it off again. That is really bad if you want your battery to last for its full potential. The Tesla engineer said to think of 50% charge as the goal!! He said, if you plan to drive enough miles tomorrow that will use 20% of the battery for the round trip, you should charge your battery overnight to 60% and then your drive will discharge the battery to 40% -- that is the 20% usage! Then, top off your charge back to 50%. He said, always bracket 50% charge. So, if your next drive will require 30% of the battery, then charge overnight to 65% and then your drive will deplete the battery down to 35% -- that makes a net usage of 30%, centered on the 50% charge level. Am I explaining this clearly? My QUESTION for you, Ben, is have you heard of this? Do you have any idea how much longer a battery will last by charging this way? I have heard reports of cell phones recharged this way that they last practically forever. So, I keep my phone battery charged at 50% plus what I expect to use for the next outing until I am back where I can plug in -- always keeping my battery targeted at 50% charge. I am in the habit of doing that with everything -- really different than thinking of the battery as a "fuel tank". Thanks! I look forward to your reply.
I think I saw 500 cycles of 0-100% charge = 7000 cycles of 30-70% charge? So 60-40% on average should be really good? :-)
Right! But this information is pretty hidden. Maybe this is too geeky for most people and would turn off buyers? I would like to see what Ben has to say here.
i fly lipo batteries for my rc aircraft and i know that you never want to charge 100% unless you are about to use the battery in the next half hour because the battery being in that high energy state degrades the capacity. storage voltage is 50% which also means that keeping the battery at 50% maintains its capacity. it would only make sense to fully charge the battery if you were getting ready for a long drive. however i also know that the smaller the charge/ discharge cycles are relative to the overall capacity also affects lifespan. so if you are using this car for small commutes each day, your battery will last longer than people who take road trips and use larger cycles.
See, that's what I'm talking about. That's great info! But other than the one forum thread I mentioned from several years ago, I never see this in any electric car videos or promoted by Tesla. Why? The only reason I can imagine is it sounds way too geeky and would discourage some sales. But some people really want to care for their battery if they know what to do. I just watched a smartphone charging video that advocates several small charges per day up to 60% or 70%. Same applies to electric car batteries for best capacity preservation and best battery life.
We have opposite experience with this. We use Lifepo4 (not lithium cobalt or lipo), and we get better longevity if charge often in small uses rather than waiting for it to be depleted. Lipo is dangerous, and only other mixes are safer to use (eg. LiMnNiCo or LiNiCo). That 50-60% retaining harge i good only for LiCo or older chemistries. This is 2017. Even by 2015 the rules of charging has changed. There are better chemistries now that can retain 90-100% charge but does not harm the electrolytes in the batts.
BTW, we use ebikes running at 1,000 - 2,000 watts electric motors in 15, 20, 25, 30ah packs, usually at 72-volts. In my case I use 84 volts as well. So knowing how to use them and charge them with such high draw is important. We are running our machines for 1-3 hours straight before they deplete. But whenever we can, we charge them often when they are idle. That's how you prolong the battery life. My advice is to get off Lipo and go into other lithium mixes. Tesla cars don't use Lipo. Too dangerous. They are using a LiNiCoAl mix (proprietary).
I love it. And as i make roughly 12000km per year that battery pack should last me more than 20 years. The question is if battery has such long material life.
An optimistic lifespan is 10 years. These batteries degrade much faster after about eight years.
Very good analysis. I never doubted the longevity of the battery, but it is good to see it on a workable graph. I think most people will upgrade their batteries, once the improved types are made available with a glass or zinc bromide core. The cost will be nearly half the current price, the range increased twofold with a full charge time of less than 10 min, and fire retardant if not fire proof. If TESLA buyers should have any anxiety at all, it should not be for the range or battery, but for replacement parts. I heard of a Canadian who needed brake work and the parts cost him 12K. This is outrageous. Have you any info on this?
That is outrageous. I have heard of some maintenance issues, checkout MKBHD talk about his car for example, but in my experience everything has been covered under warranty (including brakes).
I would like to know if fast charging degrades the battery faster than slow charging. It would be interesting to break down the analysis on these variables, if possible.
sooooooo how long is the life span for the battery.. when will you have to replace it, how many years
Years wouldn’t be the best way to measure the lifespan of a battery. For example we may both own a Tesla for 5 years, in those 5 years you drive 200,000 miles and I drive 100,000 miles. I believe miles/km would be the better way to measure the lifespan. From the gathered data we can see that in some cases over 200k miles and counting would be the lifespan. I would be interested in seeing the average lifespan as years goes on and more data is collected.
The document was deleted, can you post it again
HI, Just 2 question: 1) If according to your data, there is 5% of users that had to replace the battery, why this cases don't appear as "zero" in yours charts of “Remaining Battery Capacity” ? Seems a bit misleading.
2) Why there is 5% battery replacement before expected? is quite a lot! Dose TESLA pay for it? Thanks, And congratulations for your top work, regards, CS
What about the 10 data points that show >90% charge at low mileage and time? What do they have in common? I did note that none of these were from the UK.
Good stuff as everyone has stated.
This data is far better than I had hoped for. Another check in the "buy side" of the ledger. (TSLA stock in my case, car some day) Still I wonder about further down the road.
the data shown here only from Tesla cars ? or all the electric vehicle included?
The title says "What is the Lifespan of a Tesla Battery and How Long Will it Last?" my friend
Ben
One of the things that I only just noticed is that if you just take the data for cars that have less than 90% of the original capacity you get a very (at least to my eyes) strange result
Most of the cars are model S 60 and a few S90D and nearly all with fairly low mileage
(IDs = 290, 332, 361, 387, 725, 750, 12, 27, 51, 60, 62, 73, 103, 28)
It makes me wonder if in fact there has been a change in the calculation for the car in one of the software updates and therefore skewing the results negatively.
eg if they initially miscalculated the range of the software limited 60 or the impact of the second motor on the 90D and in a subsequent software update adjusted the values???
Good video thanks for the hard work 😘😂
So we know it loses little over driven miles/km.
Remaining question: How much will it lose over mere time, like 12, 15 years and more. Will it keep losing in a linearly or will it degrade rapidly from a certain age on.
+Marc Eder great question. If that trend holds it won't lose much. But if course it's only a sample
Appreciate it!
thank you much.
Just bought my model S. I only drive 20 miles a day on average apart from road trips. I can charge at work and at home if I want...
Do I charge daily or wait until I am closer to depleted for optimal battery performance? Thanks for the data!
My understanding is you should leave it plugged in and charging, but keeping it below 100%
Matthew Bennett, keep the charge between 25%-75% for best life span. The less amount of time below 25% or above 75% prolongs life span. These numbers are generally speaking, prolly 40%-60% is optimal but not practical unless you drive only 20 miles per day, as you stated.
Hi Ben. Do you think solid state battery is the next step? John Goodenough has some results, maybe?
+Nick I'm hopeful! Still remains to be seen in a production setting though. Whatever happened to graphene?
graphene is super hard to make and i think it belongs to the future, but Solid State ones seems more promising to me. I can't wait all new cars to be electric. I love what you're doing. keep up the great work!
Nick i agree solid state will be the next step, with graphene appearing once manufacturing is sorted.
Well done Ben.
Very interesting stuff. I would like to see a gasoline, or even a diesel engine running at 93% of stating efficiency, after that kind of mileage. I'm impressed!
Panzer Alien - i'd like to see a musk owner not have to plan every trip and watch his kw usage like a computer nerd and then subsequently sit in his car for 90 minutes while it fills up. besides numbers can easily be fudged and i don't know if i buy this battery lifeapan data. musk clearly works with the government and the government is clearly trying to make a push to force people to convert to ev's and once the government gets involved lies become commonplace. there is no ecological advantage to evs and thats a fact. no? planes, trains, ships, the military, rockets/spaceships and heating systems, and renewable energy technology all around the world still relies heavily on oil either for its propulsion or for its manufacturing. so driving an ev is just a matter of preference, not some earth saving lifestyle choice. do you fly? go on a cruise? go to the mall or visit or live in a large city? but you still drive a musk? if you said yes you still support oil and are a hipocryte.
and diesels don't "break in" until over 100k miles. so they get stronger during their early years. and a million miles with no major breakdowns is not unheard of. and engines are different like someone else posted. an 80% battery is junk. an 80% engine still has a way to go.
Soo why the celphones bateries are soo bad?
my macbook pro battery cycle limit is 1000 and I have 314 cycles count right now. I am not sure whether this information is relevant.
has anyone else noticed that the Tesla model s rear kinda looks like the jaguar xf rear
now I really appreciate your help and I really want a tesla ,even more than before.
This is a very good post, good job, I was wandering about this subject. Keep up the good work.
The original document says this: "One of the cars, a 2013 Model S P85, still manages to do 89.8 per cent of its original range, despite having more than 276,500 kilometres on its original battery. However, that owner did take the care to charge it fully every day." Now I just learned that it's NOT good to charge your car fully, but at best "up to 80%", for, as I learned, that's why cell phone batteries often break down faster, because you charge them to the end every time again, while it would be better to charge them to 80%. Now I really would like to believe that it's NOT a problem to load to the full charge, for with a 75D TeslaS you still win a lot of Kms, so please tell me: what is good and what's not good? Will that also affect the degration if I do load it full every time? Thank you for your great postings dear Ben!
Do you know what the Software and BMS are doing "behind the scene" ? If your gauge says "100% SOC" is the battery pack really at 100% SOC? How do you know? It is good to keep the Lithium Battery between 20% SOC and 90% SOC...
It is interesting. But are there some real tests on a single battery?
Good job there Ben. I long to own a model s someday. Just a thought, tesla software should include a way to analyse the driving patterns or charging patterns and project the best charging practise based on the current battey performance. Anyway its up to Musk..
The charge cycles are less important to degradation than time when the battery is fully charged. Time is the worst enemy, you want to keep them healthy - keep then 25% charged and charge just before you travel if possible.
I'll be curious to see these stats in 6 years time...
+John Dow this data suggest charge cycles have the strongest impact actually. But by default it won't charge more than 80% unless you change the setting
Ben, my friend, actually quite opposite. The greatest impact on lifespan degradation has the time during which the battery is kept under high/full charge. I'd encourage to watch YT "Why do Li-ion Batteries die ? and how to improve the situation?" by Professor Jeff Dahn, where he explains why looking at manufacturer testing cycles over short period of time is completely inaccurate and misleading when compared to real life statistics.
Quite eye opening research and it changed the way I now use and store the batteries.
And you are correct this is why the batteries in properly designed appliances are only charged to 80%. NB Tesla even if you change to 100% before a long journey, will revert back automatically after 3 days to protect the lifespan.
Is there an update to this? This is now more than for years old.
Nice vid but why do you have the mic in your face?
There's some similar data from Plug-In America's multiple Tesla surveys. You can look at it in the links below. Personally I'm not sure I see the "turn down" in the end of the data you show in the beginning of your video, though I know it's standard with li-ion batteries for them to eventually have higher degradation way down the road.
survey.pluginamerica.org/model-s/results.php
survey.pluginamerica.org/tesla-roadster/PIA-Roadster-Battery-Study.pdf
why is your camera so shaky
omg how young you look! (maybe it's the lighting)
Steinbucks data has a huge problem that you failed to detect. All of it relies entirely on the cars display of range. Tesla can make that display anything it wants. In fact, if Tesla uses the usual measure of voltage to calculate battery capacity, the battery will appear to have very little degradation even if it's energy capacity drops dramatically.
You've videos would be so much better i the mic was behind the camera and we couldn't see it
How is efficiency computed here? There are results with efficiency higher than 100%..
nice viz, you should check out Microsoft Power BI!
Sadly the chart doesnt tell you how much supercharger they use. i think that people who drive many km in their lifetime use mainly normal charging because those people normally drive like 200-300km each day and not make road trips every few days/weeks. so those people are able to charge over night and dont increase degregation with supercharging
With laptops it seems that a lot of degradation happens around 1000 cycles. Will be interesting to see in few years when the Teslas are getting close to this figures.
Laptops and cellphone batteries are abused severely in their typical duty cycles compared to a liquid-cooled (thermally managed) EV pack like what's in the Teslas and Chevy Volt and Bolt and BMW i3 (and some others), but NOT the Nissan Leaf. Nissan cheaped out and went air-cooled only (and from what I've read, this will be true on the 2nd generation Leaf as well). That's why the Leaf has really struggled with degradation issues, especially in hot climates (air cooled battery + 110F ambient temps means the battery gets cooked).
Also, in EVs, there's a "charge window" that is software controlled. The car never really truly charges the battery anywhere near 100% of the actual *chemical" capacity, and it never lets it get all the way to zero either. There's a buffer of about 10% (varies by model) on either end so that the car only really uses roughly 80% of the pack capacity. For example, an 85 kWh pack in a Tesla Model S/X 85 actually has enough cell capacity to be over 100 kWh, but it's really hard on the cells to charge to 100% and then discharge to near zero.
All this active management (thermal and charge/discharge range) of Li-ion packs in EVs is why they last SOO much longer than in a cellphone or laptop, even though fundamentally, the cells are similar. The duty cycle is far less severe.
It's great to see some scientifically gathered real-world data on this, since just about every EV-doubter I've encountered asks "Yeah sure you save on gas, but that battery is gonna cost you what $10 grand to replace in a couple years when it's dead?"... NO, dude, the battery pack in my Volt (and your Tesla) will most likely outlast the interior, and it'll certainly outlast that crappy 6-speed automatic in your econobox car. LOL The cheap-ass air-cooled trash battery in the Nissan Leaf gives all other properly engineered EVs a bad reputation.
it would be disastrous and end the EV revolution if car makers use the lithium used in laptops an cell phone. Remember that typical EVs are in the 400 volts range (not 19-24v or 7.2 volts). And the amperes involved are in the thousands of watts. Even our ebikes draw 1,000-4,000 watts. This is why we go for LifePo4 lithium mix or more stable LiMnNiCo or LiNiCo mix to mitigate the possibility of catching fire or exploding.
This is why using cellphones and laptops are not good examples of lithium batts being used in EVs. To do so is a recipie for disaster. EVen if you can avoid firs and explosion, 1,000 charge cycles ( which is generous because in reality, it should be half of that), is too short a time and would render most EVs lierally crippled in 2-3 years.
What we really need is nuclear powered cars. The range of the fuel cells would be 1000 years +. true, two nuclear powered cars crashing into each other might take out a 1 km blast range but GPS driverless cars reduce this risk phenomenally.
Mel, I realize that Tesla has modified the chemistry slightly, but the Tesla Roadster and Model S use the same or similar form factor and chemistry of Lithium batteries as are in many consumer electronics, that was kinda the whole point - to leverage the downward pressure on prices from consumer electronics, plus the ability to scale up production rapidly and wire up these cells so that the Voltage is usable for a large machine. Even if you only have a huge pile of AA batteries, if you wire them up correctly, you can get 400V.
The chemistry and charge / discharge patterns both surely make a difference in the lifespan, but the batteries in modern EVs (Nissan Leaf being the outlier because of its cheap-ass air-cooled setup) are way more gentle on the battery CELLS. Each cell in an EV pack is still very similar to the cells in your laptop battery.
Laptop batteries are not water cooled and are typically drained 100% regularly. EV batteries always leave a sizable amount to promote their longevity.
I would suspect that milage would have little to no impact on the battery. The most important factors I would think would be "Number of Charge Cycles", "Battery Age", and "Climate". Milage may have a loose correlation to things like "Number of Charge Cycle". However, a car that drives 400,000 miles in a year should have a much better battery then a car that drives the same in 10 years. Even though the millage is the same.
Looks like you did a good job of covering the important factors. I just wanted to point out the millage on it's own may be a misleading metric.
I think you're right, if you look at the % remaining against charge cycles it seems to have the biggest impact. Of course, this is data from al regions so depending on climate and other factors there might be another significant contributor.
Yeah, I am most interested in seeing how climate effects the battery. I would assume hot regions to permanently degrade the battery quicker, on the other hand I would expect cold regions for the performance to be degraded temporarily (until the battery is warmed up). However, since tesla has a cooling system on the batter pack, I have no clue how much of an impact that will actually be.
Going back to the milage correlations, since teslas are fairly new, I would expect millage to have the highest correlation with charge cycles, however, as time go on I would expect the milage to correlate more closely to a combination of age and combined with charging cycles.
I guess that's really just a long winded way of saying I like data graphs (probably too much). So, good job on that and I look forward to more data as it comes in.
When I picked up my Model 3 at the Fremont delivery center last week, I was told not to let the battery go below 20% and not to charge it more than 80%.
After a year of ownership would you buy your Model 3 again? are you satisfied with the car?
@Dan - That advice, certainly will increase the life of the battery pack.
Preliminary data looks promising. However we need more observations to 200 000 - 300 000 miles range to make conclusion how long the battery will last on average.
but what about reselling the car ?
It's not about "original charge" - it's about "original capacity" Vs "present capacity". If these batteries still have a capacity in the 90% range after 200+K miles, it will be astounding!However, there are so many factors (inherent device properties, usage models and care procedures) impacting performance and longevity that without those data points, it is not definitive. One thing is certain, it's not a free ride under any circumstances. When the battery is exhausted, someone will pay to "refill the tank". As a side note, I wonder what an average cost is for the electricity to do a recharge at home on a pack that has been 90% discharged and what is an average recharge duration.
Am I right that the "interactive points" in the chart represent one owner's car each? If so, the conclusion at 4:47 that you still get ~93% capacity after more than 300.000km isn't really proven, because there are way too few data points in that high km range. It might still be true that there's a high probability of ~90% remaining capacity after so many driven miles, but it's not really baked by these statistics.
This is why it was unfortunate that Tesla discontinued the 60 kWh Model S. It was actually a 75 kWh battery software-limited to 60 kWh, which allowed the owner to charge to nominal 100% while minimizing degradation.
"In this column is the Mileage...which is in KM."
That's enough analysis for me....
I hope this is true as I look forward to purchasing a tesla pick-up someday.
My thing is is say this Tesla thing takes off (I want one) and say more than 60% of people in the U.S. own one what will happen with the overflow of bad batteries? Having Lithium batteries all over the place isn't necessarily good either.
you NEED to start using Map Reduce for this. Check out Cloudera or AWS EMR to help you with calculations. It's going to make your life WAY easire
awesome channel
if its true .... amazing review
Lithium based batteries can work up to 90% of their cells capacity for 5-7 years and one day they just die. But the good thing is that their technology improves every year along with their capacity. Moreover very hot or cold climates like -20 celsius or +40 celsius affects greatly the battery cells causing steady degradation . However this technology have more to give until something new (not the fuel cells) comes up. All in all Tesla goes very very well and they surprize me all the time.
There is a new bat tech that uses a solid electrolyte (a plastic) that will allow the use of pure lithium without the dangers and it'll nearly double the energy density too.
According to Tesla, battery will last for atleast 10 years
shah550i thanks I will be getting one now
Here's a test from a Tesla that's done over 270.000km!
the owner states at the end that he's down 10% on capacity from new!