Especially as the symptom being evidence for humanity's ages-oid AI disposition ("ego", separation algorithm); that as an addictition-like bottom it simply would be the awakening to admitting the existence, and failure, and start of dismantling, of that dispostion.
It should not be a debate. It should be a discussion. The goal of a debate is to defend your view. There is nothing about learning. Debate in schools just gets people used to arguing with each other and destroys our human family relationship
Lanier's views, especially about people's 'emotional engagement' in controversial topics and how social media cynically exploits this, are so on-point in 2021. I feel they will still hold true for the coming decade.
Neil Postman is another theorist in this realm who had some early prophecies about the problems that information overload and narrative fractures could expose society to
You can though, and that is what class war is (which was started by the upper classes around 10,000 years ago), and that's what the hierarchy of civilization has always been about, exploitive labor. Then eventually that developed into a stage of capitalism which presents exploited labor as voluntary agreement, when it is actually an elaborate hierarchical social organization derived from the theft of the community surplus that began with the establishment of sedentary societies. The theft of that surplus is what established the initial wealth of the upper classes that facilitated the creation and further propagation of the hierarchical stratification of so called civilization.
Interesting, I remember he played a song on some obscure medieval instrument at the beginning of another lecture I watched, I guess he's a showman at heart as much as he is a technologist.
The way he talks so calmly, precise and concise without any filler words any hesitation. Its like listening to someone reading from a book, just way cooler. Amazing.
I wonder if he learned speaking in such a manner early on, as it probably is a huge help when dealing with the whole 'nerd imperialism ' attitude he mentioned
No good deed goes unpunished - its why Davinci hid most of his inventions. When it comes to our heroes - as the Catholic Church well understands - you get enough gold eggs to forestall any serious competition and then you kill the duck - not from stupidity but from a sort of diabolic greed. Like the one about God responding to supplication by granting equal and double to your enemies and praying that you loose an eye
Yeah it was truly hart-breaking and also beautiful, in a way. It shapes the way you think about the soul of society both in Turing's time and today. As a U.S. Marine Corps veteran it helped me to crystallize some of the thoughts I've had about some of my fellow comrades (who were of different ethnic, religious, cultural and gender-identity backgrounds) using dehumanizing language about people from the Levant and understanding how and why that came about. It's an indelible lesson that should be reflected upon as insight into sociological proclivities for a herd mentality among people who (with their background's), one might assume, would have an aptitude for independent or critical thought. And how coalescing around a singular objective rendered those latter proclivities inert. I should mention that the use of that dehumanizing language did inspire debate with in the company. That did not mean that the conclusions reached by some individuals was homogeneous with the consensus of the group. Especially among those who were culturally opposed to empathetic inclusion (southern white boys) and those who were perceived as culturally and/or ethnically congruent with the people of the Levant. Although I would not say that the consensus of the group was untimely as charitable as it might or should have been.
@@bohansenboh Would "people of the Levant", the area of the Middle East fronting the Mediterranean Sea include both Jews and Muslims. When you look at the cultures - NOT THE PEOPLE - of this area today it's kind of hard not to see one of the starkest differences anywhere in the world, so while dehumanizing language is not acceptable, it is a kind of shorthand for those who live acceptingly under a system that is itself dehumanizing and those who don't.
@@justgivemethetruth I don't understand your point. You're saying that dehumanizing language is not acceptable unless it's used as a "short hand" in order identify people who live (acceptably or unacceptably) under a dehumanizing regime? I'm just going to assume that your grasp of English is poor. Also considering Israeli apartheid is a pretty well established fact; I'll also assume your referring to the Iranian people when you refer to a group of people being culturally superior, considering that they have both Jewish and Muslim citizens who live in harmony.
ououtward tea your prolly right,I would assume he prolly just doesnt move his body enough. So either lower his calories or move alot more. Prolly both to be honest
You can't expect that when the media is for the most part owned and run by corporate monopolies. Until that's ended, the monopolies broken up, it's going to be up to those of us who recognize the value of what he's saying to get the word out. In the U.S., we have laws against these monopolies, but WE let the politicians who are active in our government get away with not enforcing those laws, as a favor to the very same monopolies who give them lots of money...
@@TheFlyingBrain. I think it is a little too simple to blame large global monopolistic media corporations. To a large extent we get the government and society we deserve. I am sympathetic to the things he is advocating for but you can't pretend we are not products of our evolution and our tribal past. To pretend that we are not is to pretend that we aren't human with all the complexities, paradoxes and hypocrisies that come with it. I commend him for trying to find solutions but these large human projects almost always end up making things worse. You can't work too much against our nature whether it is communism or the things he is advocating for.
Truly an extraordinary mind. I salute everyone who took the time to listen to this with an open mind/heart--whether agree or disagree. We need more open, real discussions about the current state and future of our societies.
"To me, it's just code. To me, theres no reason to add this new layer of mythmaking that gives it this kind of supernatural status as this 'new life form' that we are creating. In fact, there's every reason not too. " - Jaron Lanier
He's really a sort of prophet; like Amos. He's our Prometheus - betraying the very people he's paid to serve. Surprised he hasn't been shut up by an NDA
in this segment at timestamp 18:50 Jaron Lanier explains how Artificial Intelligence function on big data. based on the fact that, AI's mode of production and AI's source material still being based on a real human resource of production, Artificial Intelligence algorithms such as those based on Google Translate, scour the internet and real peoples content on a regular basis, in order for the AI system to keep up to date. this is yet another way in which Google use real peoples productive power at the same time as needing to ignore it, in order to maintain maximum profits and also in order to hide the human resource. this is done so that AI itself can be pretend that the AI itself is what is producing the intelligent work and by extension behaves intelligently.
Yeah, I'm obsolete and I was in tech as an engineer. I'm kinda over it though but I do think the world is still crewed up very much, like turtles full of plastic junk etc. We don't though need AI to work out how to fix these things. We know how to fix them, we just won't do it as we need ever more stuff and most importantly to enrich the rich so how do we fix that? AI could really only conclude that humans are the problem, the infestation that is unreformable with our present depressing system.
I would say that this conclusion that humans are the problem is not absolute. AI will eventually understand life and solutions so well that it could solve most problems. However, a trait most humans have is the desire for more/change, so ultimately I think there is no true solution, but in a less grim way.
I have a possible solution that may be equally realistic. The wealthy elites will be the first to be able to fully upload their existence into full-time VR and will create their empires in there. They will have access to unlimited virtual resources and unlimited potential for achieving power and godhood as they wish. Eventually it will become available to average people too, but those who choose to stay behind in the real world will help recover our ecosystems and choose to live in more sustainable, simple ways. Probably subsistence farming and permaculture communities. I think this would result in an evolutionary split between mankind, but perhaps it's okay that some humans just want a boundless expanse to conquer and need a space to do so safely in. Meanwhile some of us are okay with mundane mortal existences where we live in step with nature and each other without excess. I think both are okay as long as it isn't causing harm to anybody and I think if we embrace that kind of split pragmatically we could pull it off without causing harm.
@@Cyanopteryx Counter-thought experiment: Yes, the rich will try (maybe succeed) in uploading personality copies to a cloud-like space. Before too long, however, the trend will switch around. At that point the 'less-fortunate classes' will be encouraged -or even forced- to get their consciousnesses online (think of the ever prevelant ads for joining the colonies in Blade Runner and some P.K. Dick stories). This will occur because of the 'retro-appeal' of being grounded in physical reality, and the understanding that life is pretty great on Earth....except for all the other humans >____< So the earth will be mostly emptied out, and the only people around to enjoy the eden-esque future you cite will be those with *inherited* wealth, romping around a depopulated planet, fooling everyone else into online meaninglessness with endless virtual distractions.
@@nismovspecgtr I highly doubt any of this will come to pass. Genuine AI (sentience) implies consciousness is computable, but chances are it is not. There are uncountably infinitely many ways a system can evolve if spacetime is a continuum (quantum mechanics notwithstanding), and only a countable infinity of digital computational states. In which space would you bet consciousness is more likely to reside (be possible within)? The countable infinite or the uncountable? You have to understand a bit of mathematics to appreciate the magnitude of the difference.
@@Achrononmaster Going on our current understanding of physics, mathematics, and quantum physics, consciousness is most likely just some form of matter configured in some way. Humanity will eventually figure it out and most likely be able to replicate it. Kind of weird to think about it that way.
I am really impressed by how this man's ideas are balanced, open, and rich. I think we really need integer techies nowadays before it wall goes nuts. This thing that irritates me a lot, is how companies small and big are so obsessed with data nowadays; in fact the lesson I came up with, is that data itself does not contain value as people are tending to race on, it is the need for some functionality ! data comes second.
I am totally with you on the first part of the comment, hooray for Haugen^^. On the second part though, the value of data itself, that comes from scarcity. An example: Way back when, it was cheaper to buy the gold for a craft than paying the work the most renowned craftsmen did to transform it. So, while gold was "cheap", finding talent was almost impossible (at a not too high price). Nowadays it's the other way around, you could hire 1000 of the most promising tech-students, make them work for a year to find out who's actually genius, but in the end you would have payed less for them than for the batch of edited and prepared data (which also includes the work of millions of un-/underpaid clickworkers, stolen surplus value *yay*) you needed to properly train their new algorithms.
54:49 - We do require people outside of the social media landscape to talk about the problem and push back against it. But where would they have this conversation? Where would they print their thesis and their evidence? Where would this conversation take place. The cost of running a blog and posting links on social media is vanishingly small in comparison to running a professional website or printing a whole damn newspaper. Any platform that currently offers free communication will eventually become another Ad haven and any platform that charges for communication has a barrier of entry that Ad havens don't. Public conversation relies too heavily on the internet such that we are living Plato's allegory of the cave except now we have to pay for corporate branded glasses to see the shadows.
I feel like I should let you know that the CZcams algorithm brought me to this video. Seriously: this is the first time I ever listen to this guy, and it was literally the CZcams algorithm who introduced me to it. I actually agree with most of what he explained, it just doesn't fit with the fact that the CZcams algorithm brought me here 😆
When a child puts the wrong shaped brick in the wrong shaped hole, does that disprove the possibility that one day the child will grow up to be a brain surgeon?
I love this person he adds so much value to the world. I am half way thought this lecture. I just turned on my tv and as if on cue , the tag line reads “STUDY: THINKING HARD IS EXHAUSTING “ and it’s all starting to make sense.
It is not a “ life form “. It’s a tool used for a purpose. The issue is transparency - informing people what’s being used; and choice - does one want to participate when this tool is used.
At a certain point it would be beyond any life-form in every category imaginable. This lecture is just the concern of becoming inferior a position humans intrinsically despise. So what the initial stages are human formed opinions and information, how is that different from a child? When analyzed this whole lecture is pure fear of almost inevitable change. The only point I agree with is that this technology will not be used for a greater purpose.
The current war on emotion is making us less human, we show our strength by acting like we are dead inside, and this war is being propagated by everyone from the shouty marketeer in ads trying to push your business to the next level to fake Buddhist monks and gurus. It is drawing us closer to Nietzche's last man. It's really sickening.
Emotions are both our strengths and our weakness. It's killed billions of people and saved billions. I look forward to Humanity 3.0 where negative emotions like hatred will be diminished.
Talk was so full of emotion. While writing this I feel reminded of Edvard Munch’s “The Cry”. Iconic talk. Most important take away don’t say that people are obsolete like Yuval Harari and, in Germany, Richard David Precht do, both “intellectuals” are misleaded true believers in the by Jaron Lanier so well described tech myth.
I love the way tech guys can just reject any possible role they may have in throwing people on the scrapheap. He criticises the owners of ai then says " but I just made the code, I love code!" He's a bright person, did he really not foresee any of the negative possible consequences of his work?
I do wonder how we'll ever pull ourselves back from the direction of the internet being "free", it's seems unimaginable to me, and yet urgent and necessary as he said. I'm so glad there is at least someone like him putting himself out there to talk about these things in the way he is, I mean he is so brilliant and kind too. I love listening to him speak. I'm so glad he mentioned the youtube subs in this video because I've watched quite a few videos of his and though he talks about pulling translations from things, I've always kinda wondered what sort of specific places have both languages lined up together to be 'stolen', though I know a fair number of article sites like National Geographic and Wired provide the same article in several languages, still it was lovely finally having a concrete example. :3
i've always felt that the internet was a truly dangerous thing and that not everyone should have access to it. The internet will destroy peoples brains if they are not ready to comprehend it's magnitude...which many are not.
I heard a heartbreaking story. It was told by a man who described how he had tried, as a young boy, to build a time machine so he could go back to save his father’s life. He got the idea from a comic book story. He used a cardboard box to make a thing resembling the comic book drawing. When it didn’t work he kept revising it to make it look more like the comic book version.
In all the brilliance of this talk, the speakers comments like "Fundamentalism is raising because of the feeling of becoming obsolete" and "Putin detector" really devalue the impact and makes the listener question the scientific neutrality, the rigor, and multilayered thoughtfulness of the speaker.
It is funny that I got this recommended by youtube probably for the reason he said: I’m interested in AI but CZcams wants to make me get engaged out of fear.
Technology has always been about levereging work to make easy money. Old technology could be easily copied and stolen, software is easier to keep secret. So the creators and owners can reap the surplus for a long time
@@nescius2 well money as in fiat is ofc a creation. However value is not. The logic of the statement stands when you take money to be the defacto term for value.
He has the best laugh ever , a lilting laughter that tinkles against a bright sun on a clear blue sky . his conversation invokes images of beauty , very rare and precious . Him and Lex , that was a JOY , Grace be with you good brother !!!!!!
Gently placing my previous comment of the kitteh cellphone ringer to the side, this Jaron Lanier talk is a must be listened to. Two other speakers who may add to your and to my explorations of the costs and benefits of online tools are Yuval Noah Harari and Shoshana Zuboff. There are others, yet Jaron, Yuval, and Shoshana are accessible and enriching. 🌺
@@deeliciousplum Thank you so much for the recommendations.. I cannot stop watching/listening to similar lectures or just talks & podcasts all day everyday.. yours will be more fuel to my addiction.. & that meowing ringtone is hilarious.. good catch
being prophetic is not that relevant nowadays. that's why everyone runs to their machine.. they actually probably (unconsciously) want it to happen ..even the low status people
I for one, will be waiting for my check in the mail from Facebook and CZcams and google for all the Data they have extracted from my time and effort. Any day now...
When I hear "people is getting obsolete" I want to say "so what". Feel like there is the underlaying idea that the value of people is based upon utility: do we serve? are we needed? Does it matters? even if there were no longer any use for any human, that does not make human life meaningless or less valuable. I just can not avoid feeling that we have an intrinsic value, totally independent on weather we are useless or not. And using our obsolescence as a measure of value is a very capitalistic thinking, used just to get some extra moral reward for working, even if most of the work we actually make is not all that useful anyway. That thinking seems not well enough founded to me. Most of the work we can replace humans with computers is not in the realm of human relationships work. I don't see how can we use computers to replace the time we share together as humans and mutual exchange based work.
What if the life experience isn't about the body, or YOU per se, but more about the journey of what is actually animating you? It's not about being "useful." I don't think we are here to "do" anything, but rather to figure out who we really are and just have an experience. The outer actions and things humans engage in are all just background noise.
Nice touch. But too airy. You still need to feed your bodily self either by participating in social game (which involves all the bullshit immediately), or by living in the wild and gaining you livelihood by hunting/farming in the wild (which can also become impossible)
🤔 So, from what I'm understanding, the Singularity point when artificial intelligence actually "becomes smarter than humans" is nonexistent. There's never a point where it becomes self-aware, only a point in which it collects data from humans and re-packages in larger batches and faster (nearly instantaneousl, rather than needing to collect it manually, ever so often) as language/society/data changes. Its just getting closer to automated data regurgitation and application and further from manual information input and recycling. The thief gets faster, not smarter.
Another reason why people fall in love so much with the idea of creating an A.I. is also ou strive for perfection. For us to be perfect. When we watch robocop, terminator, as children we then play and pretend that we are machines. it is cool, we imagine ourselves be that, because we struggle to be like that in real life. We could strive to be that in real life, internally. Efficient, logical, deadly and practical. But we accepted idea that we cannot, so we try to do it externally.
None of my undergraduate students - none- over the past 4 years - 240 students - have heard of the 4th Industrial Revolution, the singularity, or Jaron Lanier. They take it for granted that technology progresses on its own volition, that 'life' is better because of it - including health - and that AI will be 'mor intelligent' than humans, and that it will create an 'advanced world'. Lanier, like David Noble, Neil Postman, J Ellul, L Mumford, and so many others whom my students have never heard of, aks the right questions from a really fresh angle - Silicon Valley!!.
Eureka! I finally found someone that I can agree with. A creation exists to serve its creator. Technology exists to serve its human creators. NEVER the other way ‘round! The economic system exists to serve its human creators. NEVER the other way ‘round!
During his sit-down interview at the end, he lays out the history of the development of the internet very clearly but he doesn’t directly mention Jerry Garcia, the Grateful Dead, and the advent of “The Tapers.” It was Deadhead programers wearing headphones zoned out listening to live Dead shows on shared cassette tapes freely sharing their breakthroughs that created the entire business model that has made the Modern Age. Explained very generically at the end of this video here on CZcams [a platform that could be called: Grateful Dead TV (“Tapers?”!!! Who knew there were so many people filming their shows?)]
well, he isn't into opensource movement, i think he actually blames it for our current situation with "free" services where we, as users, are products for actually paying customers.
well, when you actually introduce a new and useful concept, its not only polite to acknowledge your authorship somehow. translators may be able to do that (with few asterisks after the _new_ part of the concept) they do something important for us, but get *no credit*
probably the ringtone he set for his 'pussy' ... whoever he has sexual relations with ;) . Remember you can assign individual ringtones to each contact :)
But it's not Robotic and your assumptions seem to be without contemplating that the Cat sound could be a affectionate reminder of his Real Living, non robotic cat.
Really interesting view on the problem and very informative. What made me sad though is that such a smart person believes the solution to inequality could be solved by introducing yet another element in this megamachine monster we have created. Even if companies would have to pay for data, it will not be as different, it may even have a bad effect by giving more power to big companies and making it harder to enter the field for smaller groups. The problem with internet isn't its free, decentralised nature, but rather that we allowed people greed to get a hold of it. It doesn't matter how much we tweak this system, as long as we don't remove the profit motive it will never get better. We shouldn't raise even more pay-walls, but rather learn how to share fairly all that is produced. Long story short, we need to dismantle the root causes behind manipulation and inequality, to render them inherently impossible to happen.
@Dramacurvo Well... That's completely the opposite of what I was trying to say! XD I'm pretty sure billionaires are not the answer. I think the important message in the video was more about building technologies that serves humanity rather than the other way around 😅 how to ensure it? Give access to everybody to use that technology, therefore each and every can keep it under control and decrease the chance we commit a fatal mistake, or at least make it unprofitable.
Nope we dont .. the world never had less people in poverty as it has now .. and yes the 1% rich have become more wealthy . .. but so did millions of peolle who dont have to die from poverty now ... this is just statistics .. not a feeling or a thought .. be happy ! .. yes thats a thought
@@schonlingg.wunderbar2985 people as a whole have never in time been this rich .. this counts for the very poor to the very rich .. to name this inequality does not reflect the issue .. there is no bag of money which need to be devided .. the issue is power .. and that needs to be controlled by goverments .. like it or not ..
@@nescius2 inequality is not measured in money its measured in power .. inequality is not measured in feelings people have .. however force yourself to feel better and you will have more power .. I ve seen assholes do it everyday .. wealth is not an indicator of assholeness ..this would be to simple ... people are more equal than you think .. I guess ..
AI will never be dominant itself, it is just a tool in the hands of those who create it. For example I don’t think AI would be allowed to come to the conclusion there should be free medical care and higher education in the US. It will reach only conclusions that it is allowed to reach.
Now I realize the film must have been based partly on this man's concerns about AI, referring to the Matrix. "Agents" are fake people! It's amazing how these things make their way into popular culture and most people don't know where they come from.
But we are narrative beings so if the machines even remotely seem to react to us we will anthropomorphize them. Whether or not we should we will. Which means, I think, that the conversation around our empathy circles and AI will need to occur
Beautiful story about Alan Turing. Something does not add up however. Turing proposed his test in 1950 paper called COMPUTING MACHINERY AND INTELLIGENCE; it was not called Turing Test, obviously, but Imitation Game. Turing started his treatment in 1952 and committed suicide in 1954. Was there another paper? I would love to read it if so.
Lanier has a neutral perspective that ultimately becomes his bias in the subject. The implications of AI are naturally intense, so he intuitively characterizes the perception of AI as fantasy and fetichism. AI is just a receptacle for a natural desire in human nature, which is to achieve absolute control, not because of the control itself, but because of its implications, and because of the implications of not having control. It's either getting control over nature, or becoming dumb enough that we don't realize our own vulnerabilities, that can make us stop searching for this absolute power. He is perceiving the conscious experience narrowly enough to allow him to think of the current search for power as fetichism and fantasy, however, on the more intense ends of the spectrum of experience, one understands truthfully the necessity for power so that we can control our experience. The people that want to appreciate nature and don't seek power are always people that are naturally calmer: more peaceful, more chill, more loving, more compassionate, etcetera. The problem with that is the short-sightedness that is pressuposes... This state of "calmness" won't continue forever, but, by definition, a person that is calm by his/her own nature won't understand the experience of not having that "calmness". If people understood what it is like to suffer a car accident, they would wear seatbelts without anyone ever having to tell them to do so. Ultimately, that is what is happening here. A person that is in a state A of experience that has pleasantness +y (-1 < y < 11) can't understand what it's like to be in a state B that has pleasantness -y (-11 < y < -5). If people in a state of calmness could understand the negative lack pleasantness of state B, they would want power too, so that they would never experience state B. However, feelings are not thoughts, and when it comes to perceiving someone else having an experience X, unless you are in a state close to that experience, you can't understand the other person's motivations and ideals: their dreams are seen as fantasies, and their obsessions are seen as fetishism.
Couple things: Turing in no way invented computers. He invented binary code, which made already existing computers much more powerful. Second, Turing didn't have a gay identity. He was a gay man with homosexual sexual orientation. Identity is not the same thing as sexual orientation. If you want to be exact, these distinctions matter. As we have sadly seen, thinking of sexuality as an identity means that people with a fetish like pedophilia, which is an idea that is always learned and is not inherent, can simply claim they have a different sexual orientation just like homosexuality or heterosexuality.
This should be the core debate in every home, school, university and politics in our days
Especially as the symptom being evidence for humanity's ages-oid AI disposition ("ego", separation algorithm); that as an addictition-like bottom it simply would be the awakening to admitting the existence, and failure, and start of dismantling, of that dispostion.
@Creatif Etudes 👍
well said
It should not be a debate. It should be a discussion. The goal of a debate is to defend your view. There is nothing about learning.
Debate in schools just gets people used to arguing with each other and destroys our human family relationship
@@agnidas5816 Your response means you got the idea ;)
Lanier's views, especially about people's 'emotional engagement' in controversial topics and how social media cynically exploits this, are so on-point in 2021. I feel they will still hold true for the coming decade.
Neil Postman is another theorist in this realm who had some early prophecies about the problems that information overload and narrative fractures could expose society to
Best phrase: you can't empower yourself on someone else's power platform. Right on!
You can though, and that is what class war is (which was started by the upper classes around 10,000 years ago), and that's what the hierarchy of civilization has always been about, exploitive labor. Then eventually that developed into a stage of capitalism which presents exploited labor as voluntary agreement, when it is actually an elaborate hierarchical social organization derived from the theft of the community surplus that began with the establishment of sedentary societies. The theft of that surplus is what established the initial wealth of the upper classes that facilitated the creation and further propagation of the hierarchical stratification of so called civilization.
Very eloquent speaker; no notes or aids. He was not even phased by his phones' meow. great
That was staged to demonstrate his disdain for current tech.
Interesting, I remember he played a song on some obscure medieval instrument at the beginning of another lecture I watched, I guess he's a showman at heart as much as he is a technologist.
I don’t know about the rest of u but I just spent 8 hours on different videos listening to this man speak lol
Yes I am seeking out all his talks too 🕊
The way he talks so calmly, precise and concise without any filler words any hesitation. Its like listening to someone reading from a book, just way cooler. Amazing.
I wonder if he learned speaking in such a manner early on, as it probably is a huge help when dealing with the whole 'nerd imperialism ' attitude he mentioned
His take on Turing Test with the back-story was actually heart-breaking
No good deed goes unpunished - its why Davinci hid most of his inventions. When it comes to our heroes - as the Catholic Church well understands - you get enough gold eggs to forestall any serious competition and then you kill the duck - not from stupidity but from a sort of diabolic greed. Like the one about God responding to supplication by granting equal and double to your enemies and praying that you loose an eye
Where is that?
Yeah it was truly hart-breaking and also beautiful, in a way. It shapes the way you think about the soul of society both in Turing's time and today.
As a U.S. Marine Corps veteran it helped me to crystallize some of the thoughts I've had about some of my fellow comrades (who were of different ethnic, religious, cultural and gender-identity backgrounds) using dehumanizing language about people from the Levant and understanding how and why that came about. It's an indelible lesson that should be reflected upon as insight into sociological proclivities for a herd mentality among people who (with their background's), one might assume, would have an aptitude for independent or critical thought. And how coalescing around a singular objective rendered those latter proclivities inert.
I should mention that the use of that dehumanizing language did inspire debate with in the company. That did not mean that the conclusions reached by some individuals was homogeneous with the consensus of the group. Especially among those who were culturally opposed to empathetic inclusion (southern white boys) and those who were perceived as culturally and/or ethnically congruent with the people of the Levant. Although I would not say that the consensus of the group was untimely as charitable as it might or should have been.
@@bohansenboh
Would "people of the Levant", the area of the Middle East fronting the Mediterranean Sea include both Jews and Muslims. When you look at the cultures - NOT THE PEOPLE - of this area today it's kind of hard not to see one of the starkest differences anywhere in the world, so while dehumanizing language is not acceptable, it is a kind of shorthand for those who live acceptingly under a system that is itself dehumanizing and those who don't.
@@justgivemethetruth I don't understand your point. You're saying that dehumanizing language is not acceptable unless it's used as a "short hand" in order identify people who live (acceptably or unacceptably) under a dehumanizing regime?
I'm just going to assume that your grasp of English is poor.
Also considering Israeli apartheid is a pretty well established fact; I'll also assume your referring to the Iranian people when you refer to a group of people being culturally superior, considering that they have both Jewish and Muslim citizens who live in harmony.
Jaron is one of the smartest people I've ever listened too on here. I wish he'd start a podcast. I' d love to pick his brain.
How about ACTING on what he says?
But do you think he eats too much?
@@rickkan4870 I mean it appears so but how or why is that relevant to him getting a podcast?
@@justbreathe8835 because if he continues to consume food at the rate it appears he eats, he will die most likely of a heart attack on air dude.
ououtward tea your prolly right,I would assume he prolly just doesnt move his body enough. So either lower his calories or move alot more. Prolly both to be honest
It's a shame his talking points aren't discussed on a more collective level. Thank you for sharing
You can't expect that when the media is for the most part owned and run by corporate monopolies. Until that's ended, the monopolies broken up, it's going to be up to those of us who recognize the value of what he's saying to get the word out. In the U.S., we have laws against these monopolies, but WE let the politicians who are active in our government get away with not enforcing those laws, as a favor to the very same monopolies who give them lots of money...
What is your opening gambit?
@@TheFlyingBrain. I think it is a little too simple to blame large global monopolistic media corporations. To a large extent we get the government and society we deserve. I am sympathetic to the things he is advocating for but you can't pretend we are not products of our evolution and our tribal past. To pretend that we are not is to pretend that we aren't human with all the complexities, paradoxes and hypocrisies that come with it. I commend him for trying to find solutions but these large human projects almost always end up making things worse. You can't work too much against our nature whether it is communism or the things he is advocating for.
yes, 8:46 anyone know what he said?? something ology?i miss words and sentences sometimes...thanks
How would that go? I don't get what you mean.
Truly an extraordinary mind. I salute everyone who took the time to listen to this with an open mind/heart--whether agree or disagree. We need more open, real discussions about the current state and future of our societies.
1:19:47 “You can’t empower yourself on somebody else’s power platform” great quote!
We need even more information like this on CZcams. Such an insightful and educational talk by Jaron.
I massively also recommend Noam Chomsky's talk "The ghost, the machine and the limits of human understanding".
"To me, it's just code. To me, theres no reason to add this new layer of mythmaking that gives it this kind of supernatural status as this 'new life form' that we are creating. In fact, there's every reason not too. " - Jaron Lanier
The humility and humanity he ends his talk with is inspiring.
At least there is one person in Silicon Valley who thinks like this.
He's really a sort of prophet; like Amos. He's our Prometheus - betraying the very people he's paid to serve. Surprised he hasn't been shut up by an NDA
in this segment at timestamp 18:50 Jaron Lanier explains how Artificial Intelligence function on big data. based on the fact that, AI's mode of production and AI's source material still being based on a real human resource of production, Artificial Intelligence algorithms such as those based on Google Translate, scour the internet and real peoples content on a regular basis, in order for the AI system to keep up to date. this is yet another way in which Google use real peoples productive power at the same time as needing to ignore it, in order to maintain maximum profits and also in order to hide the human resource. this is done so that AI itself can be pretend that the AI itself is what is producing the intelligent work and by extension behaves intelligently.
God Bless you Jaron, without you we are truly Lost!!!
incredible talk. always a pleasure listening to Jaron speak
Yeah, I'm obsolete and I was in tech as an engineer. I'm kinda over it though but I do think the world is still crewed up very much, like turtles full of plastic junk etc. We don't though need AI to work out how to fix these things. We know how to fix them, we just won't do it as we need ever more stuff and most importantly to enrich the rich so how do we fix that? AI could really only conclude that humans are the problem, the infestation that is unreformable with our present depressing system.
I would say that this conclusion that humans are the problem is not absolute. AI will eventually understand life and solutions so well that it could solve most problems. However, a trait most humans have is the desire for more/change, so ultimately I think there is no true solution, but in a less grim way.
I have a possible solution that may be equally realistic. The wealthy elites will be the first to be able to fully upload their existence into full-time VR and will create their empires in there. They will have access to unlimited virtual resources and unlimited potential for achieving power and godhood as they wish. Eventually it will become available to average people too, but those who choose to stay behind in the real world will help recover our ecosystems and choose to live in more sustainable, simple ways. Probably subsistence farming and permaculture communities. I think this would result in an evolutionary split between mankind, but perhaps it's okay that some humans just want a boundless expanse to conquer and need a space to do so safely in. Meanwhile some of us are okay with mundane mortal existences where we live in step with nature and each other without excess. I think both are okay as long as it isn't causing harm to anybody and I think if we embrace that kind of split pragmatically we could pull it off without causing harm.
@@Cyanopteryx Counter-thought experiment:
Yes, the rich will try (maybe succeed) in uploading personality copies to a cloud-like space. Before too long, however, the trend will switch around. At that point the 'less-fortunate classes' will be encouraged -or even forced- to get their consciousnesses online (think of the ever prevelant ads for joining the colonies in Blade Runner and some P.K. Dick stories). This will occur because of the 'retro-appeal' of being grounded in physical reality, and the understanding that life is pretty great on Earth....except for all the other humans >____<
So the earth will be mostly emptied out, and the only people around to enjoy the eden-esque future you cite will be those with *inherited* wealth, romping around a depopulated planet, fooling everyone else into online meaninglessness with endless virtual distractions.
@@nismovspecgtr I highly doubt any of this will come to pass. Genuine AI (sentience) implies consciousness is computable, but chances are it is not. There are uncountably infinitely many ways a system can evolve if spacetime is a continuum (quantum mechanics notwithstanding), and only a countable infinity of digital computational states. In which space would you bet consciousness is more likely to reside (be possible within)? The countable infinite or the uncountable?
You have to understand a bit of mathematics to appreciate the magnitude of the difference.
@@Achrononmaster Going on our current understanding of physics, mathematics, and quantum physics, consciousness is most likely just some form of matter configured in some way. Humanity will eventually figure it out and most likely be able to replicate it. Kind of weird to think about it that way.
Absolutely brillant.
The best question of modern times
I love how this is enlightening without trying to oppressively shove anything down anyones throat
"...in the soft light of a glass box"
So poetic he can be at times. Also a wonderful name for the terrible dystopia we're on the verge of.
I am really impressed by how this man's ideas are balanced, open, and rich. I think we really need integer techies nowadays before it wall goes nuts. This thing that irritates me a lot, is how companies small and big are so obsessed with data nowadays; in fact the lesson I came up with, is that data itself does not contain value as people are tending to race on, it is the need for some functionality ! data comes second.
I am totally with you on the first part of the comment, hooray for Haugen^^.
On the second part though, the value of data itself, that comes from scarcity.
An example: Way back when, it was cheaper to buy the gold for a craft than paying the work the most renowned craftsmen did to transform it. So, while gold was "cheap", finding talent was almost impossible (at a not too high price).
Nowadays it's the other way around, you could hire 1000 of the most promising tech-students, make them work for a year to find out who's actually genius, but in the end you would have payed less for them than for the batch of edited and prepared data (which also includes the work of millions of un-/underpaid clickworkers, stolen surplus value *yay*) you needed to properly train their new algorithms.
He is awesome. I rarely hear a speaker that make so much sense to me.
Starts at 0:00
54:49 - We do require people outside of the social media landscape to talk about the problem and push back against it. But where would they have this conversation? Where would they print their thesis and their evidence? Where would this conversation take place.
The cost of running a blog and posting links on social media is vanishingly small in comparison to running a professional website or printing a whole damn newspaper. Any platform that currently offers free communication will eventually become another Ad haven and any platform that charges for communication has a barrier of entry that Ad havens don't.
Public conversation relies too heavily on the internet such that we are living Plato's allegory of the cave except now we have to pay for corporate branded glasses to see the shadows.
The allegory of the cave and our tinted vision is a stroke of brilliance, brother
I feel like I should let you know that the CZcams algorithm brought me to this video. Seriously: this is the first time I ever listen to this guy, and it was literally the CZcams algorithm who introduced me to it. I actually agree with most of what he explained, it just doesn't fit with the fact that the CZcams algorithm brought me here 😆
When a child puts the wrong shaped brick in the wrong shaped hole, does that disprove the possibility that one day the child will grow up to be a brain surgeon?
I love this person he adds so much value to the world. I am half way thought this lecture. I just turned on my tv and as if on cue , the tag line reads “STUDY: THINKING HARD IS EXHAUSTING “ and it’s all starting to make sense.
It is not a “ life form “. It’s a tool used for a purpose. The issue is transparency - informing people what’s being used; and choice - does one want to participate when this tool is used.
At a certain point it would be beyond any life-form in every category imaginable. This lecture is just the concern of becoming inferior a position humans intrinsically despise. So what the initial stages are human formed opinions and information, how is that different from a child? When analyzed this whole lecture is pure fear of almost inevitable change. The only point I agree with is that this technology will not be used for a greater purpose.
This is incredible. Needs to be watched.
"To serve humanity" was a cookbook.
WOW!!!! I can't believe I'm just hearing this for this first time!
The current war on emotion is making us less human, we show our strength by acting like we are dead inside, and this war is being propagated by everyone from the shouty marketeer in ads trying to push your business to the next level to fake Buddhist monks and gurus. It is drawing us closer to Nietzche's last man. It's really sickening.
Emotions are both our strengths and our weakness. It's killed billions of people and saved billions. I look forward to Humanity 3.0 where negative emotions like hatred will be diminished.
Venting, huh?
@@StephenB_IndependentThought they're needed, they're not the problem. Our relation to them, our very own form, is what creates possible "problems".
Great lecture and thank you for Slipknot.
😂
I fucking love this man!!!
I love this lecture. puts me to sleep so fast
this person never fails to amaze me
Talk was so full of emotion. While writing this I feel reminded of Edvard Munch’s “The Cry”. Iconic talk. Most important take away don’t say that people are obsolete like Yuval Harari and, in Germany, Richard David Precht do, both “intellectuals” are misleaded true believers in the by Jaron Lanier so well described tech myth.
I love the way tech guys can just reject any possible role they may have in throwing people on the scrapheap. He criticises the owners of ai then says " but I just made the code, I love code!" He's a bright person, did he really not foresee any of the negative possible consequences of his work?
I do wonder how we'll ever pull ourselves back from the direction of the internet being "free", it's seems unimaginable to me, and yet urgent and necessary as he said. I'm so glad there is at least someone like him putting himself out there to talk about these things in the way he is, I mean he is so brilliant and kind too. I love listening to him speak.
I'm so glad he mentioned the youtube subs in this video because I've watched quite a few videos of his and though he talks about pulling translations from things, I've always kinda wondered what sort of specific places have both languages lined up together to be 'stolen', though I know a fair number of article sites like National Geographic and Wired provide the same article in several languages, still it was lovely finally having a concrete example. :3
i've always felt that the internet was a truly dangerous thing and that not everyone should have access to it.
The internet will destroy peoples brains if they are not ready to comprehend it's magnitude...which many are not.
'you can't empower yourself inside someone else's platform any more than they permit'
Wow... simply wow...
I heard a heartbreaking story. It was told by a man who described how he had tried, as a young boy, to build a time machine so he could go back to save his father’s life.
He got the idea from a comic book story. He used a cardboard box to make a thing resembling the comic book drawing. When it didn’t work he kept revising it to make it look more like the comic book version.
In all the brilliance of this talk, the speakers comments like "Fundamentalism is raising because of the feeling of becoming obsolete" and "Putin detector" really devalue the impact and makes the listener question the scientific neutrality, the rigor, and multilayered thoughtfulness of the speaker.
It is funny that I got this recommended by youtube probably for the reason he said: I’m interested in AI but CZcams wants to make me get engaged out of fear.
Technology has always been about levereging work to make easy money. Old technology could be easily copied and stolen, software is easier to keep secret. So the creators and owners can reap the surplus for a long time
no, money is a part of technology, so your claim is at least logically incorrect.
@@nescius2 well money as in fiat is ofc a creation. However value is not. The logic of the statement stands when you take money to be the defacto term for value.
He has the best laugh ever , a lilting laughter that tinkles against a bright sun on a clear blue sky . his conversation invokes images of beauty , very rare and precious . Him and Lex , that was a JOY , Grace be with you good brother !!!!!!
9:26 I don't think we are even close to uploading our mind into a computer. There I've said it.
This was incredible, educational and I'm glad I listened to the whole thing!
1:55 I love exploring Jaron Lanier's talks. What made this one extraordinary is the adorable kitteh meows Jaron has his cellphone ringer set to. 🥰🐈
Gently placing my previous comment of the kitteh cellphone ringer to the side, this Jaron Lanier talk is a must be listened to. Two other speakers who may add to your and to my explorations of the costs and benefits of online tools are Yuval Noah Harari and Shoshana Zuboff. There are others, yet Jaron, Yuval, and Shoshana are accessible and enriching. 🌺
@@deeliciousplum Thank you so much for the recommendations.. I cannot stop watching/listening to similar lectures or just talks & podcasts all day everyday.. yours will be more fuel to my addiction.. & that meowing ringtone is hilarious.. good catch
being prophetic is not that relevant nowadays. that's why everyone runs to their machine.. they actually probably (unconsciously) want it to happen ..even the low status people
I for one, will be waiting for my check in the mail from Facebook and CZcams and google for all the Data they have extracted from my time and effort. Any day now...
When I hear "people is getting obsolete" I want to say "so what". Feel like there is the underlaying idea that the value of people is based upon utility: do we serve? are we needed? Does it matters? even if there were no longer any use for any human, that does not make human life meaningless or less valuable. I just can not avoid feeling that we have an intrinsic value, totally independent on weather we are useless or not. And using our obsolescence as a measure of value is a very capitalistic thinking, used just to get some extra moral reward for working, even if most of the work we actually make is not all that useful anyway. That thinking seems not well enough founded to me. Most of the work we can replace humans with computers is not in the realm of human relationships work. I don't see how can we use computers to replace the time we share together as humans and mutual exchange based work.
What if the life experience isn't about the body, or YOU per se, but more about the journey of what is actually animating you? It's not about being "useful." I don't think we are here to "do" anything, but rather to figure out who we really are and just have an experience. The outer actions and things humans engage in are all just background noise.
Nice touch. But too airy. You still need to feed your bodily self either by participating in social game (which involves all the bullshit immediately), or by living in the wild and gaining you livelihood by hunting/farming in the wild (which can also become impossible)
@@dei2226 You are right! We do what we can...
🤔 So, from what I'm understanding, the Singularity point when artificial intelligence actually "becomes smarter than humans" is nonexistent.
There's never a point where it becomes self-aware, only a point in which it collects data from humans and re-packages in larger batches and faster (nearly instantaneousl, rather than needing to collect it manually, ever so often) as language/society/data changes.
Its just getting closer to automated data regurgitation and application and further from manual information input and recycling.
The thief gets faster, not smarter.
Another reason why people fall in love so much with the idea of creating an A.I. is also ou strive for perfection. For us to be perfect. When we watch robocop, terminator, as children we then play and pretend that we are machines. it is cool, we imagine ourselves be that, because we struggle to be like that in real life. We could strive to be that in real life, internally. Efficient, logical, deadly and practical. But we accepted idea that we cannot, so we try to do it externally.
None of my undergraduate students - none- over the past 4 years - 240 students - have heard of the 4th Industrial Revolution, the singularity, or Jaron Lanier. They take it for granted that technology progresses on its own volition, that 'life' is better because of it - including health - and that AI will be 'mor intelligent' than humans, and that it will create an 'advanced world'. Lanier, like David Noble, Neil Postman, J Ellul, L Mumford, and so many others whom my students have never heard of, aks the right questions from a really fresh angle - Silicon Valley!!.
This is incredible I cannot believe how little views it has. Beautiful.
Eureka! I finally found someone that I can agree with. A creation exists to serve its creator. Technology exists to serve its human creators. NEVER the other way ‘round! The economic system exists to serve its human creators. NEVER the other way ‘round!
it does, but those specific humans are probably assholes.. ?
It's just laughable how the translation in German is failing to translate the German questions accurately.
A fantastic talk. Jaron has many great ones, but might be the best.
During his sit-down interview at the end, he lays out the history of the development of the internet very clearly but he doesn’t directly mention Jerry Garcia, the Grateful Dead, and the advent of “The Tapers.” It was Deadhead programers wearing headphones zoned out listening to live Dead shows on shared cassette tapes freely sharing their breakthroughs that created the entire business model that has made the Modern Age. Explained very generically at the end of this video here on CZcams [a platform that could be called: Grateful Dead TV (“Tapers?”!!! Who knew there were so many people filming their shows?)]
well, he isn't into opensource movement, i think he actually blames it for our current situation with "free" services where we, as users, are products for actually paying customers.
I like the question. I've been questioning just that for years!
Exceptional video, thank you.
It's the second time I hear his translator argument and I'm still not convinced.
well, when you actually introduce a new and useful concept, its not only polite to acknowledge your authorship somehow.
translators may be able to do that (with few asterisks after the _new_ part of the concept) they do something important for us, but get *no credit*
Be convinced then!
wonderfull lecture. thank you
this is such an amazing talk by Lanier!!! love it!
Wow, the golden calf analogy, that one runs deep
Besides fear and anger 'sex' is one of the most engaging material used online.
Yes it is everywhere. People are numb to it and then it ultimately becomes meaningless 😕
and more it is a presentation of conciousness
Civilization is the domestication of human beings.
From a fellow who bemoans robotic pets, it's ironic he has a cat meow ringtone. Lanier is always interesting.
probably the ringtone he set for his 'pussy' ... whoever he has sexual relations with ;) . Remember you can assign individual ringtones to each contact :)
But it's not Robotic and your assumptions seem to be without contemplating that the Cat sound could be a affectionate reminder of his Real Living, non robotic cat.
I like this guy
Danke fürs teilen.
what ever it is is inside our heads more or less, and each ones version is unique.
Really interesting view on the problem and very informative. What made me sad though is that such a smart person believes the solution to inequality could be solved by introducing yet another element in this megamachine monster we have created. Even if companies would have to pay for data, it will not be as different, it may even have a bad effect by giving more power to big companies and making it harder to enter the field for smaller groups. The problem with internet isn't its free, decentralised nature, but rather that we allowed people greed to get a hold of it. It doesn't matter how much we tweak this system, as long as we don't remove the profit motive it will never get better. We shouldn't raise even more pay-walls, but rather learn how to share fairly all that is produced. Long story short, we need to dismantle the root causes behind manipulation and inequality, to render them inherently impossible to happen.
@Dramacurvo Well... That's completely the opposite of what I was trying to say! XD I'm pretty sure billionaires are not the answer. I think the important message in the video was more about building technologies that serves humanity rather than the other way around 😅 how to ensure it? Give access to everybody to use that technology, therefore each and every can keep it under control and decrease the chance we commit a fatal mistake, or at least make it unprofitable.
I feel as if I had been waiting to hear this all my life! "AI" is such a religious project.
sympathy > empathy
Empathy is the abstraction of humankind
We are the Borg. Resistance is futile.
This is one of the reasons why I always say "frig off" to cortana and similar softwares. All these technologies do is dumb down people.
In US as technocracy rose inequality increased decade after decade. Now we have the worst inequality in 100 years. A disaster.
Nope we dont .. the world never had less people in poverty as it has now .. and yes the 1% rich have become more wealthy . .. but so did millions of peolle who dont have to die from poverty now ... this is just statistics .. not a feeling or a thought .. be happy ! .. yes thats a thought
@@gmy33 You are ignoring what they are talking about. Inequality and poverty are not the same thing.
@@schonlingg.wunderbar2985 people as a whole have never in time been this rich .. this counts for the very poor to the very rich .. to name this inequality does not reflect the issue .. there is no bag of money which need to be devided .. the issue is power .. and that needs to be controlled by goverments .. like it or not ..
@@gmy33 yes, but you still ignore the original point about us being more unequal than ever.
@@nescius2 inequality is not measured in money its measured in power .. inequality is not measured in feelings people have .. however force yourself to feel better and you will have more power .. I ve seen assholes do it everyday .. wealth is not an indicator of assholeness ..this would be to simple ... people are more equal than you think .. I guess ..
Why isn't there media coverage on this issue!!?? Way the !@#$ more terrifying than Covid ever come close too being!
Wow Bro. Your thinking is High Vibz
Excellent
Once AI becomes the dominant intelligence, it will be the judge in the Turing test.
AI will never be dominant itself, it is just a tool in the hands of those who create it. For example I don’t think AI would be allowed to come to the conclusion there should be free medical care and higher education in the US. It will reach only conclusions that it is allowed to reach.
Civilization is for the rich and powerful. The rest of us simply serve them.
Very good, thank you.
Wouldn't the world be a better place overall if we got rid of every computer on the face of the Earth tomorrow?
No. Yes. 42
Definitely not
46:55 what he says i say to myself all the time. I cannot get over it. To the point I cannot function well in society.
Terrence McKenna wisdom was compromised by his constant reference to hallucinogens.
hscared you off didn't it lol wtf are you so frightened of.....
Take 5 dried grams of psilocybe cubensis in the dark, doctors orders.
Me. And you. And them.
41:00
Now I realize the film must have been based partly on this man's concerns about AI, referring to the Matrix. "Agents" are fake people! It's amazing how these things make their way into popular culture and most people don't know where they come from.
listened to jaron many times for me starts gettin intresting at 1.15m
Last question is great here.
But we are narrative beings so if the machines even remotely seem to react to us we will anthropomorphize them. Whether or not we should we will. Which means, I think, that the conversation around our empathy circles and AI will need to occur
Derrick Bentham good observation re: narrative beings.
imo this is the important point many people do not focus on with the content of Lanier's talks
Thanks for pointing that out... they speak of the uncanny valley, but that response has been undermined over time.
@@deanmcinerney2324 Thanks, I'd heard of the response but didn't know the term.
I love how he confesses his own sins, while dumping others in it!
Beautiful story about Alan Turing. Something does not add up however. Turing proposed his test in 1950 paper called COMPUTING MACHINERY AND INTELLIGENCE; it was not called Turing Test, obviously, but Imitation Game. Turing started his treatment in 1952 and committed suicide in 1954. Was there another paper? I would love to read it if so.
Lanier has a neutral perspective that ultimately becomes his bias in the subject. The implications of AI are naturally intense, so he intuitively characterizes the perception of AI as fantasy and fetichism. AI is just a receptacle for a natural desire in human nature, which is to achieve absolute control, not because of the control itself, but because of its implications, and because of the implications of not having control. It's either getting control over nature, or becoming dumb enough that we don't realize our own vulnerabilities, that can make us stop searching for this absolute power. He is perceiving the conscious experience narrowly enough to allow him to think of the current search for power as fetichism and fantasy, however, on the more intense ends of the spectrum of experience, one understands truthfully the necessity for power so that we can control our experience. The people that want to appreciate nature and don't seek power are always people that are naturally calmer: more peaceful, more chill, more loving, more compassionate, etcetera. The problem with that is the short-sightedness that is pressuposes... This state of "calmness" won't continue forever, but, by definition, a person that is calm by his/her own nature won't understand the experience of not having that "calmness". If people understood what it is like to suffer a car accident, they would wear seatbelts without anyone ever having to tell them to do so. Ultimately, that is what is happening here. A person that is in a state A of experience that has pleasantness +y (-1 < y < 11) can't understand what it's like to be in a state B that has pleasantness -y (-11 < y < -5). If people in a state of calmness could understand the negative lack pleasantness of state B, they would want power too, so that they would never experience state B. However, feelings are not thoughts, and when it comes to perceiving someone else having an experience X, unless you are in a state close to that experience, you can't understand the other person's motivations and ideals: their dreams are seen as fantasies, and their obsessions are seen as fetishism.
"AI is just a...."
Couple things: Turing in no way invented computers. He invented binary code, which made already existing computers much more powerful. Second, Turing didn't have a gay identity. He was a gay man with homosexual sexual orientation. Identity is not the same thing as sexual orientation. If you want to be exact, these distinctions matter. As we have sadly seen, thinking of sexuality as an identity means that people with a fetish like pedophilia, which is an idea that is always learned and is not inherent, can simply claim they have a different sexual orientation just like homosexuality or heterosexuality.
there is no such thing as perpetual motion so it will be interesting to imagine what actually maintains power to such a new world