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Lab Leak or Wet Market? Why the Origins of COVID-19 Matter | Amanpour and Company
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- čas přidán 14. 08. 2023
- A new COVID-19 variant is fueling a resurgence of the virus as it continues to evolve. But three years on, we still don’t know how the pandemic started. Author and journalist David Quammen ponders the origin of the virus in his latest article for The New York Times Magazine. He joins Walter Isaacson to discuss the conflicting theories.
Originally aired on Aug 15, 2023
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Amanpour and Company features wide-ranging, in-depth conversations with global thought leaders and cultural influencers on the issues and trends impacting the world each day, from politics, business and technology to arts, science and sports. Christiane Amanpour leads the conversation on global and domestic news from London with contributions by prominent journalists Walter Isaacson, Michel Martin, Alicia Menendez and Hari Sreenivasan from the Tisch WNET Studios at Lincoln Center in New York City.
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Thanks, David Quammen, from a retired old Medicus. A Granduncle had Post-Encephalific Parkinsonism from the “Spanish” Flu a century before, so Virology / Immunology have interested me most of my life. Yes, intransigent Chinese officialdom is still a problem, and it goes back through the dynasties. But we have that here, too - I call it the Tucker Carlson phenomenon. Questions with preconceived answers net no useful information. Good answers require good questions.
Just a bunch of bulshit lies
What a great interview. This format, where we can hear a deep analysis, is so much more informative than the “sound bite” news.
WOW. David Quammen nails so many important ideas in this piece. It is among the most excellent vantage points of the interaction among the workings of science, politics and cognitive functions ( and dysfunction) of our culture and the world it exists in that I have seen in recent memory. Thank you for bringing this excellent content to us!
It's absolute lies
3 or so days ago it came out that Covid was leaked by the lab…. Look it up on google.
Amazing interview. Thank you. I had no idea the wild animal trade was worth 70 billion in China. That helps explain the possibilities of viruses mixing between different species and the humans around them. Viruses historically jump from animals to humans in various locations around the world, without the presence of wet markets, too.
Add a psychological issue. We tend to think about mother nature as a good mother... In reality, she is psychopathic, chaotic in the mathematical sense of the word, and metaphorical. However, blaming chaos in the sense of chaos theory isn't great to cope with something that cause stress. It's much easier to blame someone.
It's the Chinese's fault, it's the CIA's fault, it's the Rothschild's fault, it's Keke Rosberg's fault: these are far more suiting and calming. It's just that isn't much supporting these directly.
@@therrydicule I appreciate your perspective! Yes, “Mother Nature” can have a cruel side. I think of the world as a system of energy, looking for balance. Sometimes we get in the way.
It's not worth anything near $70 billion. Just fyi.... Peace 🙏
@@profbri.02 You are right: according to the Chinese Academy of Engineering, the market's value of wild animal trade is about 520 billion Yuan which translate to about 71.4 billion USD according to current forex values (which has fluctuation).
Can we use 70 billions dollar for the sake of conversations from now on? Or we need to keep track of the pennies?
@@therrydicule I don't think it's anywhere near that amount. Evidently, you and I saw different sources. I wonder what is the average cost of a wild animal purchase in China? Then we could extrapolate to see whether or not $71+ billion is achievable in a reasonable number of purchases... Hmmm. More data is needed.
Regardless of whether it's $30 billion or $70 billion, that's a lot of wild animals being mistreated and killed, many of which are endangered. And it speaks to perhaps a bigger problem with wet markets, yes?
Peace 🙏
Edit: What does the academy of engineering have to do with the wild animal market, just out of curiosity?
@16:44 What David Quammen is talking about at this point of the interview is EXACTLY why there's a "Q-Anon" movement in America now. It's so frustrating (and foolish) that what began as a prank on 4chan has obliterated and subsumed the sanity of so many people.
His point about the drama, conspiracy & goodies & baddies effect is telling imho; so many ppl are seeing life through the lens of video games & movies, the latter becoming more like games all the time, & the popular stuff has these conspiratorial & secrecy themes deeply imbedded within bc they create such that frisson of fear & danger .. as a writer he's noticed that .. i think he's right.
So far I haven't seen any reference to the impact of the African Swine flu on China. Millions of animals were killed to prevent further outbreaks in 2017 to early 2019 . Pork prices rose substantially and large segments of the population turned to the wet markets. It increased the exposure to spillover.
Interesting.
Iatrogenocide killed US cv19 patients. The Calvert Manor lawsuits, are proving that there were no deaths, no uptick, well into the scam, even close to staged Newark, Del, until the Md governor found out and forced testing that would force deadly protocols.
you mean anything linking the two things? Good point, plenty of info on the epidemic of ASF in China, but yours is the first comment I've seen on links.
He missed the chance early to note that most major human viral diseases have come from animals. He did say in recent years, but that rather undersells the reality.
Much is made of the introduction of those diseases into immunological naive parts of the world by explorers & colonists - & those were indeed horrific events - but it's not as if the Europeans that by then were largely immune got off lightly; the toll of those diseases in the early years (hundreds of years) of animal husbandry was huge, it just isn't talked about so much bc it was spread or over such a long period.
@@chrisfreebairn870 Yes it doesn't have to be wild animals for instance the 1918 flu ... originating in Kansas was genetically traced to the a sale of a horse from a stable in Toronto, Canada. In other words as you point out , a domestic animal.
@@sammavitae114 interesting .. wasn't aware horses were flu virus hosts.. pigs, chickens/birds sure .. wild animals more like for really novel things, domestic for the recombinant, & bats are virus heaven it seems .. so sad all this political bs now stalks the field of virology; & we were lucky this was a coronavirus & not one of the more deadly flu variants.
Great interview.
Covid is the most blatant way for nature to tell us we shouldn't mess with Mother nature. She will always win.
Except she has not. Humans are winning. From vaccines to gene editing to medical devices like the artificial mitral valves that saved my son's life and now do not require a surgery to replace, we are extending life spans and improving the quality of life/standards of living.
Eradicating smallpox was a pretty good win for our side. It killed 200 million in the last century.
yes but also no. IOW, u r right and the OP is right. Messing with mother nature really means mindlessly doing it without any understanding of second and third order externalities i.e side effects. And messing with it also means not taking all precautions to reduce initial spread of a virus, e.g. wearing masks when there's any doubt. As i like to say "when there's any doubt, there is no doubt" ie err on the conservative side in healthcare. @@kevinviel6177
@@kevinviel6177But at the scale we are going at it, what is the cumulative cost?
We would have more information if tRump hadn't pulled American scientists out of the Wuhan labs just before the virus emerged. We would have had boots on the ground still, therefore we would have had access to information that would have shed some light.
I love these interviews. Thank you Amanpour & Co. and Issacson.
the whole issue was handled so badly every one of these clowns should be fired most of all donald
Agreed
….considering the US is the world leader in Covid deaths.
The stable genius??!! Buckle up, I say it’s 50/50 he gets re-elected, another virus plaguing America…….Stupidity!
He was fired by the American people. I hope they don't decided to give him his job back.
@@jasonkinzie8835 I wouldn’t be surprised, like I mentioned above, the level of stupidity and the mindless following of their cult leader is astonishing
As far as virus mutations and transmissions go it can happen and does happen in any type of breeding facility, including cows, pigs, birds, fish, etc. Wet markets are not the only or even the main problem. People don't like to admit this when those are the animals they themselves eat, use and continue to mistreat through their consumer choices.
Well yeah or it's just an easy place to put the blame for bad science.
This problem would be trivial.
@@WagesOfDestruction Far from trivial. Look at the origin and history of almost all infectious disease.
@@WagesOfDestruction "At finer spatial scales (i.e., at the individual host level), host switching, as with any invasion process, is facilitated by propagule pressure [88,89], and the disease spillover risk increases as interspecific contacts increase. In such situations, ample opportunities exist for spillover infections that originate in the reservoir host (off-the-shelf) or that successfully adapt to humans and thus undergo a true host-switch (i.e., tailor-made) [90]. Consequently, commercial farms housing many animals in restricted spaces can be major sources of novel pathogens [91]. For example, the 2009 “swine flu” epidemic was caused by a novel influenza virus (H1N1) that was a product of reassortment among three viruses (H3N2, H1N2, and Eurasian avian-like swine viruses) circulating in domestic pigs [14]. As large-scale commercial animal operations increase globally, these “melting pots” are likely to continue to be major sources of novel pathogens [92]."
- The Animal Origin of Major Human Infectious Diseases: What Can Past Epidemics Teach Us About Preventing the Next Pandemic?
@carinaekstrom1 considering the potential fallout China could face if its responsible, the problem of admitting that "People don't like to admit this when those are the animals they themselves eat, use and continue to mistreat through their consumer choices." is trivial. This argument is nonsense
Read a book on virology, and you'll realize how complicated this is.
"I don't need to read books. I do my research on CZcams!"
It's certainly complicated, but that comment reeks of "trust the experts" when the field has a very poor track record assessing accidents. Accidently killing millions is a very uncomfortable hypothesis & looking deeply into the issue most people come to find out the evidence leans toward a research leak. There is too many strong coincidences and all the natural zoonosis side has is data from China and that's not trustworthy.
@@jeddak ... Explains the ignorance !
Why do you say that? The burden of proof is what counts.
And anyone that claims covid is NOT from a natural source has the burden of proof to fulfill.
I'm not seeing any actual evidence this was from a lab leak.
Do you?
Bianna is great! Ammanpour has one quality show. 🤗Miss Woodward on PBS.
Great update Thank You
A long hiatus before someone came up with such good show on covid 19 origins.
Both wet market AND lab "leak"? Bats rounded up in nearby caves. Taken to lab for experiments. Some die. Cleaning crew comes in at night, finds freshly dead bats. They stuff them in a bag and leave after work. They pass by the wet market on the way home and sell off the bats for a few extra yuan. THAT sounds very plausible.
Yeah no... a wet market is just a good place to put the blame for bad science.
"all made worse by social media" thats the truth. It was all there before, but SM has made everything more acute.
People just want someone to blame. If it's a lab leak then they can blame the Chinese. Unfortunately, they will also blame a random guy who works in a Korean grocery store.
Quammen is "pondering" the data. There's damn little data. The Chinese spent a couple of years cleaning (literally) all locations and cleaning the data, before allowing anyone to investigate.
The facts are that there is published data supporting zoonosis and the wet market as the origin (see Michael Worobey's paper in Science 22 July 2022, amongst others), and there is zero empirical data supporting a lab leak, only speculation based on anonymous sources.
As someone in genetics and having worked in several BSL scenarios, I think this writer didn't ask the correct questions.
He also didn't do much research prior to speaking with these individuals.
Example:
Why did the Proximal Origins paper not have a retraction? We knew that the pangolin wasn't the intermediate by publishing date.
The papers very argument is unscientific (I would not have tried to publish it). It's sloppy science, at best.
Actually, reading that paper in March 2020 is what solidified my suspicion - never read such a sh*t paper in 25 years in science.. yet so many were hanging their hats on it. Even in the paper they admit that "it's currently impossible to prove or disprove the theories of its origin described here". Yet they immediately called all those who still considered lab leak, conspiracy theorists. 🙄
Folks, lab leaks happen - all the time. Look it up. Even SARS I, which evolved in nature, had a few lab leaks out of China years down the line.
There's so much more, but look to the evolutionary biologists on this one, it's in their wheelhouse. Drs. Jesse Bloom and Alina Chan are more of the experts in this arena.
(And ask Dr. Shi for her samples and lab notes/data. It would be easy to clear up if those were brought forward.)
What this guy said is hearsay. His opinion about innuendo, and second hand witness. Most of all whatever you believe will direct your position towards this guy. I don't know and if I did it would not make a difference.
I highly recommend Dr. Valentin Bruttel's presentation that covers all the evidence collected so far.
Great comment
@@michaelcre8 OK. I highly recommend that you then read the Vox article, How to read a controversial preprint paper on Covid’s origins; A trio of researchers claimed they found likely evidence that the virus that causes Covid-19 was synthetic. And then scientists went to work picking the theory apart. By Kelsey Piper Oct 26, 2022.
The truth? We can't handle the truth. Our medical system depends on our sicknesses and overall poor health. They don't want us to realize our immune systems can handle many things that vaccines provide as a means for profit. The truth comes out about the money made wasn't for our benefit. Imagine that.
There never was any evidence whatsoever for zoonosis. All of the evidence pointed toward it being a research related release. Probably unintentional but definitely research related.
I am sorry to point out that trust has to be earned. I know the animal host of SARS CoV l and ll are bats but the key question was and still is what was the intermediate host before spilling over to human. The statement of host is also true if SARS CoV ll did not start from a research lab!
An idea that has absolutely gotten more and more obscured by sensationalism. Speaking of Chinese interest having possible ramifications while avoiding any mentions of Peter Daszak's and others at ecohealth alliance potential interest, not to mention their early role in the media stories involving origin, is not helping to earn that trust. Likewise lack of mentioning Fauci's early and repeated saying he strongly, strongly supported natural origin and now his denial of having made those statements, despite the many video clips, really must be mentioned when asked why there is a lack of trust- it seems a tad more relevant than JFK. I could go on - clearly we have an us vs them mentality exemplified by this guest speaker
Peter Daszak, Ecoheath Alliance, Fauci, CDC, and etc are all posteriors. My point is that we need to clarify the facts: 1. whether SARS CoV ll that caused the COVID-19 was in WIV before the outbreaks in the wet market as reported; 2. If yes, how long SARS CoV ll was present at WIV; and etc. Anterior facts are more important to find the true origin of SARS CoV ll so that we can develop a plan to avoid the damages COVID-19 has done through the whole world in the past 3 years!@@davidbranch2020
David Quammen is a serious scholar and journalist. Read Spillover. I think he gives an honest overview. Most virologists favor the spillover theory
Are there any virologist that think it leaked from a lab? I haven’t heard of any.
There never has been a poll and it's an uncomfortable hypothesis. Many virologists admit they don't want to discuss it and many have to do so anonymously. Also a virologist isn't necessarily the top expert. Epidemiologists, biosecurity experts, forensics experts, microbiologists & engineering experts are important too.
@@solarwind907When science journalists are looking for the lab-leak source for a panel, they usually pick Alina Chan, at the Broad Institute, but she's really in the "don't know but more research is necessary" category. JAMA Open recently did a study of doctors spreading misinformation on the internet. I think there were about 60 MDs or DOs, and the most common specialty, about 15, was GP. No infectious disease specialists.
@@ideapowerfulweapon Virologists work and some will say they "live" in virology labs. They know what's possible and what's not. The "experts" you suggest may know something but virology labs are not their field of expertise. The VIROLOGISTS on This week in Virology have no problem saying out loud what they believe to be true. Period.
Check your sources and see if there are any virologists telling you it's a lab leak. I'll bet not.
But I bet they're all experts at something and speak with great confidence. : (
@@solarwind907 I recommend the article "Lab-Made? SARS-CoV-2 Genealogy Through the Lens of Gain-of-Function Research" by Yuri Deigin, which was published in April 2020.
Excellent interview, excellent information.
Expanding beyond what they discussed, there is a sad similarity with climate change. When angry people decide what they want to believe, no amount of honest, clearly explained scientific information will change their minds. It only makes them angrier. I wish I had a constructive suggestion for this, but...
Thanks!!! It is straight thinking like this, based on facts, we need from the media!
Except is not.
While I lean towards the belief that SARS-CoV-2 had a zoonotic origin, David Quammen mischaracterizes the debate on the virus's origins. This mischaracterization furthers the divide and increases the distrust of the scientific process.
First, I believe that zoonotic origins are more likely because the investigative findings and resultant paper demonstrate that two separate strains, A and B, started around the Wuhan wet market. It would be very improbable that a lab leak with different strains occurred twice. My reasoning is strictly based on the evidence.
But what happened early in the pandemic was the oppression of information. The first release of emails under FOIA did not even meet the requirements since they were illegally redacted. It took a second request to meet the legal requirements. Contrary to Quammen’s reporting here, it is very apparent from the email release that some scientists were puzzled about how the virus could have a zoonotic origin because of its features, especially Jeremy Farrar. Farrar espoused how serial passaging in the lab could have produced such a virus, one that lacked evidence of genetic engineering.
Dutch scientist Ron Fouchier forcefully changed the tone of the debate from a scientific inquiry to a political narrative. The narrative was that any reference to a lab leak origin was a wild conspiracy theory. Jeremy resisted somewhat, but Fouchier had a strong personality and took command. It is evident from those emails it was a political decision to promote the zoonotic origin and downplay the lab leak as a conspiracy. Francis Collins, the ultimate decision maker, fell prey to Fouchier’s rhetoric, while Fauci remained objective and open to more fact-finding. It was decided that The Proximal Origin of SARS-CoV-2 paper was to be written supporting the zoonotic origin.
The paper itself was flawed in declaring, “Our analyses clearly show that SARS-CoV-2 is not a laboratory construct or a purposefully manipulated virus”.
Various other scientists weighed in and challenged this unscientific finding. The problem was that older technology certainly leaves tell-tale signs of genetic manipulation. However, newer methods for manipulating viruses, such as serial passage, are the repeated transfer of viruses from one culture of cells to another. Andersen and the associated scientists did not have a solid scientific basis to come to such a conclusion. That was the point Jeremy Farrar was making in their email debate.
Quammen stated that he interviewed those on the original conference call, and all indicated it was an inquiry to determine the virus's origins. Sure, the emails back that up. However, it was the email exchange that resulted in the oppression approach to the lab leak hypothesis. It is clear to anyone who reviews the critical emails in the exchange. Quammen stated that Fauci and Collins didn’t pressure the group to pursue zoonotic origins. I agree; it was clearly Fouchier. I don’t know his motivation, but the emails are what they are and provide clear evidence of what transpired. If Quammen was well informed as he leads us to believe, he is disingenuous.
Quammen was quick to believe Shiz Zhengli (bat-lady scientist) that she didn’t have the SARS-CoV-2 virus. Under the oppressive Chinese government, she would unlikely admit to it if she did. Her testimonial is worthless. There is the NIH Research Project 2R01AI110964-06, “Understanding the Risk of Bat Coronavirus Emergence - project leader Peter Daszak.
The project proposal states: "We will use S protein sequence data, infectious clone technology, in vitro and in vivo infection experiments and analysis of receptor binding to test the hypothesis that % divergence thresholds in S protein sequences predict spillover potential." Elsewhere in the project description it mentions the use of “humanized mice.” They used mice genetically modified with human lung tissue/cells for the in vivo experimentation.
The "spillover potential" refers to the ability of a virus to jump from animals to humans, which requires that the virus be able to attach to receptors in the cells of humans. SARS-CoV-2, for instance, is adept at binding to the ACE2 receptor in human lungs and other organs. I could be wrong, but I believe the S protein sequences refer to the S1/S2 furin cleavage site that the SARS-CoV-2 virus utilizes to access our cells.
There is evidence that the Wuhan Lab was conducting scientific research indirectly funded by the NIH that could create SARS-CoV-2. The scientists involved in the conference call and email exchanges conspired to suppress the lab leak hypothesis. The media, mainly the left-wing media, actively engaged in the suppression of the lab leak hypothesis.
Another piece of misinformation often cited in this debate is that it took 15 years to find the origin of the original SARS virus. That is true; that was how long it took to trace it to the actual bat species. But what we are looking for is the intermediate host. NIH PubMed: DOI:10.1126/Science.1087139 “Isolation and characterization of viruses related to the SARS coronavirus from animals in southern China” was published on September 4, 2003, and discusses how the virus was isolated from Himalayan palm civets and raccoon dogs in the animal market.
Quammen continues suppressing the lab leak hypothesis with his lack of candour on the facts. Continuing the suppression of a legitimate theory fuels the attack on the credibility of the scientific process. He mentions the “seeds of mistrust”; well, he is spilling those seeds of mistrust by continuing to spread the lies.
If Quammen wants to support the zoonotic origins hypothesis, he should cite the scientific evidence supporting it and not disparage those with other views. He should admit to the coverup that occurred when challenged. There was a cover-up, and it needs to be exposed. I am politically left and very supportive of the scientific method, and it is because of that I think we have to call out and expose scientists that abuse their authority.
This discussion was very interesting. I don't know what to believe about the origin, but now I feel that I have a better background on the subject.
If you're interested in the evidence look up Dr. Valentin Bruttel. He covers all the evidence collected so far in great detail.
Admitting ignorance is the first step towards wisdom.
The likes of you and I are the exception and not the rule. Opinion in ignorance is all too common aint it. Once an idea takes hold then only confirming evidence is accepted. It's irrational.
@@robguyatt9602 Totally agree. Unfortunately.
Listening to intelligent people discuss issues is always rewarding. We do not have enough of this in the media.
He really tiptoed around blaming Trump for not trusting science! Its Trumps fault!
I think his actions/inactions were a huge cause in the virus spreading unnecessarily deeply and widely.
Obama's administration helped contain Ebola and SARS.
Yeah, this one isn't Trump's fault. I don't even know where you can get that.
He's trash, but he didn't do everything we don't like. Not every single thing.
Death rates from COVID were statistically much higher in counties Trump won. So…yes. Trump’s public posture killed people.
Smart discussion
Amanpour ❤🎉❤😊
Outstanding interview.
Dr. Hu is say what the CCP wish.
In general, I agree with his conclusions about why the origin matters, but I disagree that there's a preponderance of evidence in support of natural spillover. The flaw here (perhaps an incorrect assumption?) appears to be that Quammen hasn't sat down and talked to scientists who believe the preponderance of evidence leans towards lab leak and it seems his starting point was natural spillover -- the title of his 2012 book. The BBC4's "Fever" series talked to scientists from both sides. It does not fully have a direct debate between experts, but it's quite good. Bottom line: Keep your mind open; don't come to a firm conclusion when the evidence is measured by a preponderance.
Nothing you have said prove or disproves any theories - not even your favourite. We might not know for decades, and to honest our knowledge regarding viruses is still evolving. Coronaviruses were first isolated in 1931, where they had spilled over into a poultry farm in the United States. The birds developed respiratory disease. Note that this was 13 years after the Spanish Flu outbreak, and it's the same family of viruses that have strong tendency to jump in and out again of human and livestock hosts, all the while mixing DNA with other wild hosts. We've saw it play out in the US where we had a severe Avian epidemic in poultry, after the human pandemic died down. That was probably the Covid virus jumping from man into chickens, and the latest variants in human Covid, mixed DNA with other viruses that infect humans, or from animals close to humans to evolve. So, this is nothing new or strange, and there's nothing to do but track the mutations and what the mutations are doing. And every country involved in hosting viral research should consider their options and safety protocols.
One. MOre kumbaya voice bending over backwards to exculpate Chinese. I don’t disagree with his statement we do g really know, but then he runs off and says I believe it was natural. Huh /?? Look given current lack of knowledge and beijings stonewalling we must operabas if it was lab erro, even if inadvertent. The Chinese are NOTour fiends, whe with these Chablis sipping bilderbug Davis internationalists give up the ghost on this ?
It baffles me how can people take Chinese scientists' words at face value knowing how they would be treated by the Chinese government had they said anything different ...
This guy is an apologist for virus workers. The fact is no other close relative of Sars-Cov2 has a furin cleavage site (other less related coronaviruses do), and the fact is that it is often used in labs to enable researchers to make viruses they are studying more amenable to infect cell culture lines so they can study them. David Baltimore, virologist, who won the Nobel Prize for the discovery of reverse transcriptase, saw the data on the furin cleavage site in Sars-Cov2, and said immediately "Oh, well there is the smoking gun" (for lab leak).
Just because it leaked from a lab does NOT mean it was intentional- China has notoriously lax safety protocols. The labs at the Wuhan Institute was (and is) studying beta coronaviruses in P2 facilities- not meant for use for highly contagious agents. Whether you think it is lab leak, or a wet market spillover, China is still to blame for this.
Your imagination has got the better of you. There is a preponderance of evidence. There are virologists who study this.
The only ppl who didnt realize it could be from a market know nothing about Chinese culture. We know they have had the great leap forward that kill millions. So anything that is edible is edible. With enough seasoning it will become a desired dish.
Thanks for clearing that up. 🤢🤮
I feel like you are hugely generalizing! Society asking questions based on research coming out(inc. vaccine efficacy) as time goes on are not in the same category as conspiracy theorists. And THIS is becoming a huge problem. This is now what is starting to divide our society. We really need to drop the with us or against us nonsense and intelligently discuss all of the information.
This guy still wants to see clothes on the Emperor, while he is actually naked.
You don’t really know either though, do you? You have a belief, but that is not synonymous with fact. Maybe the origin is a lab, maybe not; maybe we will never know. What if it was some nefarious plot by China? What then? We get to be outraged?
Too right about distrust and cynicism. It's as though we have lost the cmmon sense to remember that expertise is a real thing that comes from study and practice, and that the time experts have spent getting their education and learning their craft really do make possible an opinion that should be given more weight than one coming from someone without that knowledge and expertise.
It's a total bunch of lies
People believe the story with the least or no evidence. 95% of people believe in god with the same amount of evidence. People are just stupid. Democracy and religion make that irrefutable.
Why have all stopped charting and reporting the stats on how people are tracking post the shots? Something scientific called excess deaths count is still growing. If slowed, it appears it may only be due to less bother with truth telling on adverse side effects and repeat cvd/ cold/flu/other sudden serious new health troubles symptomatic of immune disorders etc.
All important for you who pride yourselves in being "believers of science" or are you only a believer in The Science (as you or some elite get to define each and every time some who/wef narrative is running hot, and claim expert in)?
Walter, well done.
In this day of Conspiracy theories, that this was spillover is much too tame for those looking for nefarious reasons behind every single thing that happens in this world. We used to believe the simple answer was probably true but now, no one wants to believe the simple answer.
In all possible scenarios, China is culpable for either severe negligence or nefarious release. China owes the world reparations.
🦍🐗🦔🦆Don't eat wildlife 🐒🐯🦔🐗🦍🐗🦔🦆Don't eat wildlife 🐒🐯🦔🐗
Is it natural to eat animals? It’s not just “wild animals.” Animal agriculture and our partaking is a ticking time bomb for future pandemics and anti-biotic resistance.
Thank you from a scientist following this fairly closely.
Like so many things, it revolves around burden of proof.
The lab leak has zero evidence to support it.
As time goes on there is less and LESS reason to think this is from a lab leak
Aftern an arson, do we go hunting for the inventor of fire? When someone lets a bull loose in a China shop, do we go after the bull's mother? The Trump pandemicide is the responsibiity of Trump, et al. That is more important than COVID's origins.
The bull in the China shop could be the way that BSL labs are working with contagions.
please explain Dr Li
I think the public has seen what outside money and gifts can do to influence government officials so the fact those scientists receive NIH funds is relevant especially given the discrepancy between the private discussions and public statements. Good questioning by the host.
Is the fact that RFK Jr. has received $1.6 million consulting for a law firm in litigation against pharmaceutical companies relevant?
@@norman_5623 I have no idea but I would say in general the context is worth knowing to determine whether something is relevant or not.
@@tragicrhythmYou're saying that you know the influence of NIH funds on scientists is relevant, but you don't know whether the influence of RFK Jr's $1.6 million consulting fees is relevant?
@@norman_5623If you think that piece of info is relevant to this topic, please feel free to share more details.
...about the Chinese being silent about it, I believe it is a pushback on people telling them what to do or not to do... I live in Mexico and there is that feeling now and then as to why should other countries tell us what to do... goverments many times react that way...I personally believe what they say on the TWIV channel and podcast that it is from the market due to the evidence. I don't think anyone would release it on purpose since it is hard to know what the consecuenses are...how many people did it have to infect before we had any inkling as to symptoms, mortality etc.? I think we should concentrate on being prepared for a next pandemic...it might be worse (or not), but be prepared.
That's right, TWIV is my most useful, reliable source. Of course, it's like one of those college course ratings where they say. "It's a tough course but it's worth it."
The Chinese being silent about it is because that is the nature of repressive/authoritarian governments. The Chinese Communist Party is not a responsible "player" in the world stage. That is why they need to be told what or what not to do.
Didn't we hear the first patient was an employee of the lab there
Secrets must and remain secret ,even it harm some people.
Why?
What ever happened to Fort Detrick? Also I am very curious about the vaping illness that happened back in 2019, right before the Covid-19 outbreak. Why suddenly this is a dead issue.
@TucsonAZMC Why do you wonder about that?
It doesn't matter much if protocols that prevent initial spread are abandoned, as in the US, as they were with 19. Worse yet, pulling the US out of the WHO meant no US scientists in China.
Trump released it.
Did we know at what tissue temperature did SARS COV2 better replicate?
Why?
Because If IT replicate at very low tissue temperature virus are ,,temperature sensitive,, and high body temperature protect against infection.
At TWiV 659 at min29 virologist Christian Drosten suggest that SARS COV2 better replicate at very low tissue temperature.
Even,,mask wearing,, increase upper respiratory temperature.
But oxigenoterapie using not warmed oxigen mix can decrease lung temperature.
China shared the information in reasonable time. It was the U.S poor response that was a catalyst for the surge
No china let their people go on worldwide holiday to spread covid
The interviewer seems to have a bias, and is trying to get support from the guest. Let the guest report his evidence! I don't think that host should be trying to slant the discussion.
Lets hope that out Gain of Function experts makea new and better virus and save the planet.
Hahaha ha yes im with you (i think) on a sarcasm level
@@trulyso734 Gotta save tha planet
@@laurier3348 well.. just as long as they don't aim for a looney tune lonely planet (nature with 0 normal population such as me).
@@trulyso734 Yours, normal people are not ok, they are bigots and racists and probaly mysagionists, or how is that written ?
When you make excuses for not having evidence for your claim, after years, its obvious whos shelacking who
Both
🐞Every city of any moderate population has a “wet market “. The vendors deal with basically the same supply chain. This was engineered and released on the human population. It just worked too good. 🐞
Why don't you save yourselves alot of time. Ask any Psychic. I've known the answers for 3.5 yrs Been laughing my way through this slow train wreck ... Great to be Clairecognitive . The truths will prevail.
did Pfizer pay off these two????
Well, the CCP wouldn't allow full investigative access in Wuhan, the lab and elsewhere in China, so we may never know.
As Laurie Garrett said on TWIV, the US wouldn't allow the same kind of access to their records. Try asking Pfizer for their patient records. During the original negotiations for the biological weapons treaty, the scientists wanted to include provisions for inspections, as they did in the nuclear weapons treaties. The US refused to include inspections in the treaty. Now, said Garrett, the State Department is demanding that the Chinese submit to the same inspections that we refused to include in the treaty, or that we would allow in our own labs.
I checked Garrett's claim myself, and there were articles in Nature, Science and the Wall Street Journal interviewing scientists and policy makers who said that US labs would never submit to that kind of inspection. For example, HIPAA regulations restrict the disclosure of patient records, without patient permission.
How many labs from China are in the USA???
then why not show us her databases?
C19 was caused by the Loch Ness monster
Believing is seeing.
This guy is doing a lot of mental gymnastics to avoid having his "theory" cut to shred by Occam's razor.
Occam's Razor says that you take the simplest explanation. Virologists and epidemiologists have been studying dozens of epidemics over the last century, and they all follow the same pattern of animal origin and human spread that they found in Wuhan. The simple explanation is that SARS-COV-2 originated like SARS-1 and all the other epidemics. The unusual explanation is that it was created in a lab. The lab leak people are doing a lot of mental gymnastics to argue their theory, with no scientific evidence to support it, just speculation.
Why do people constantly misapply William of Occam's statement, which is not an infallible rule of nature? According to Occam's razor, flat earth theory must be correct.
I never said it was infallible, just useful and I stand with comedian and elder non statesman Jon Stewart on this one.
@@boomidongle4271 so why raise it as a means of refuting the points he raises, which are supported by most evolutionary virologists?
The lab leak claims are the ones that would be discarded by Occam's razor for adding unnecessary complexity.
The lab leak is the same as saying, I don't understand, therefore 'aliens'.
It is not a reasonable answer, bur an excuse for being unreasonable.
.
Considering that the Wuhan BSL-4 was a joint US-China venture shouldn't there the stateside portion of that have access to the same data (if not research notes), assuming it exists? As far as "lack of transparency" (or documentation) goes concerning research conducted, if the investigators took an approach typical of US law enforcement, do cops stop at searching the passenger and cargo compartments of a vehicle when one of their drug dogs gets a "hit," or will they strip the upholstery and dismantle the vehicle until they find something? Sometimes a lack of evidence found simply means that the evidence sought simply doesn't exist, regardless of any political interests surrounding it.
6:40 $70 billion from the wild animal market in China?!? I don't think it's anywhere near that much. I did some quick searching and have found estimates of $7-23 billion globally. This highest estimate I've seen for China is $17 billion. I thought I'd maybe misheard, but he repeated the $70 billion number, which is wildly inaccurate. Facts matter, and claims like this undercut the validity of the rest of his comments.
Peace 🙏
Underground economy, too, perhaps?
If these people on the far right have a cynicism about the government, they think voting for Fascist dictator is better? No, it will be a huge regret to all those people that voted that in.
Exactly right. tRump pulled US funding and American scientists out of the project in Wuhan that was tracking coronavirus in bats just before the pandemic. If he hadn't we still would have still had boots on the ground and access to information that was relevant. He's to blame for more than the massively excessive number of deaths in the US.
Humans love intrigue. Spillover from animals is a boring story, but a manufactured virus creates a narrative that stimulates the imagination and creates a villain. Scientists have to not only test hypotheses but also have to refute speculation. This video helps to provide some light in the speculation processes.
Doesn't the fact that patient(s) zero have been found and identified mean anything?
Luc Montagnier suggest that SARS COV2 was manipulated at genomic level(at the begining of2020
I've read most of his books.
and?
@@stevechance150 - His jaw hurts.
Is your new variant from the lab in California?
16 yrs😮
42 yrs😮
1976 ebola, still looking for "natural host"
COVID-19......2072...2073...?😮
Couldn't be both Lab and rat/bat Animal?
Will happen again
This coronavirus is missing serious prosecutors.
Our scientists had been working along with their scientists in that lab until we left. I was told Trump pulled them. Is that true?
Use Google. WASHINGTON(Reuters) - The Trump administration cut staff by more than two-thirds at a key U.S. public health agency operating inside China, as part of a larger rollback of U.S.-funded health and science experts on the ground there leading up to the coronavirus outbreak, Reuters has learned.
Yes Trump dismantled most of previous teams, cooperation & plans for pandemic preparedness as well as defamed China which makes them more unwilling to cooperate
@@SillyGrandma99That is my recollection & understanding, as well.
We had American and Chinese scientists working together, sharing information, developing personal relations, having drinks, and giving their American colleagues information that the Chinese government wouldn't disclose (such as the sequence of SARS-CoV-2). When the editors of the ProMED email list got the first reports of COVID-19, Peter Daszak of EcoHealth Alliance called his Chinese co-workers to confirm it and get more details. When Trump closed these collaborations, he destroyed one of the best sources of information on Chinese biotechnology imaginable. Now the security people are treating virology as a military secret, and getting information by bribing Chinese expatriates, and examining aerial photos of the WIV parking lot (really).
BTW, the Reuters story, which CZcams didn't post the first time, was:
Exclusive: U.S. slashed CDC staff inside China prior to coronavirus outbreak
By Marisa Taylor
MARCH 25, 2020
Frigg'n humans.. it always comes down to 'humans' & flat out, GREED.. ALWAYS!!
DR FAUCI
I peg it down to incompetence not malfeasance
Quammen is the real deal. All of the conspiracy theorists should listen to this.
yeah, I'm here. I listened.
What I heard is, "I talked to a bunch of people who get funding from The US and they said the lab leak theory is just phoeey."
Two people in Australia also said it didn't come from the world's largest collection of coronaviruses... it came from the flea market down the street
Unfortunately they only listen to other conspiracy theorists
@@cgdombrow So you believe that the coronavirus came from a flea market down the street from the world's largest collections of coronaviruses-- that both the US and China funded-- because this guy asked a couple people and they said, "Yup, came from the market."
Any pushback? Any mention of Dr. Fauci going on TV for a year and a half, telling everyone there's no way it came from the lab (that he never mentioned funding)?
Do you believe Iraq had WMD's too?
Not really; his dismissal of alternative viewpoints and the information he provided lacks candour.
While I lean towards the belief that SARS-CoV-2 had a zoonotic origin, David Quammen mischaracterizes the debate on the virus's origins. This mischaracterization furthers the divide and increases the distrust of the scientific process.
First, I believe that zoonotic origins are more likely because the investigative findings and resultant paper demonstrate that two separate strains, A and B, started around the Wuhan wet market. It would be very improbable that a lab leak with different strains occurred twice. My reasoning is strictly based on the evidence.
But what happened early in the pandemic was the oppression of information. The first release of emails under FOIA did not even meet the requirements since they were illegally redacted. It took a second request to meet the legal requirements. Contrary to Quammen’s reporting here, it is very apparent from the email release that some scientists were puzzled about how the virus could have a zoonotic origin because of its features, especially Jeremy Farrar. Farrar espoused how serial passaging in the lab could have produced such a virus, one that lacked evidence of genetic engineering.
Dutch scientist Ron Fouchier forcefully changed the tone of the debate from a scientific inquiry to a political narrative. The narrative was that any reference to a lab leak origin was a wild conspiracy theory. Jeremy resisted somewhat, but Fouchier had a strong personality and took command. It is evident from those emails it was a political decision to promote the zoonotic origin and downplay the lab leak as a conspiracy. Francis Collins, the ultimate decision maker, fell prey to Fouchier’s rhetoric, while Fauci remained objective and open to more fact-finding. It was decided that The Proximal Origin of SARS-CoV-2 paper was to be written supporting the zoonotic origin.
The paper itself was flawed in declaring, “Our analyses clearly show that SARS-CoV-2 is not a laboratory construct or a purposefully manipulated virus”.
Various other scientists weighed in and challenged this unscientific finding. The problem was that older technology certainly leaves tell-tale signs of genetic manipulation. However, newer methods for manipulating viruses, such as serial passage, are the repeated transfer of viruses from one culture of cells to another. Andersen and the associated scientists did not have a solid scientific basis to come to such a conclusion. That was the point Jeremy Farrar was making in their email debate.
Quammen stated that he interviewed those on the original conference call, and all indicated it was an inquiry to determine the virus's origins. Sure, the emails back that up. However, it was the email exchange that resulted in the oppression approach to the lab leak hypothesis. It is clear to anyone who reviews the critical emails in the exchange. Quammen stated that Fauci and Collins didn’t pressure the group to pursue zoonotic origins. I agree; it was clearly Fouchier. I don’t know his motivation, but the emails are what they are and provide clear evidence of what transpired. If Quammen was well informed as he leads us to believe, he is disingenuous.
Quammen was quick to believe Shiz Zhengli (bat-lady scientist) that she didn’t have the SARS-CoV-2 virus. Under the oppressive Chinese government, she would unlikely admit to it if she did. Her testimonial is worthless. There is the NIH Research Project 2R01AI110964-06, “Understanding the Risk of Bat Coronavirus Emergence - project leader Peter Daszak.
The project proposal states: "We will use S protein sequence data, infectious clone technology, in vitro and in vivo infection experiments and analysis of receptor binding to test the hypothesis that % divergence thresholds in S protein sequences predict spillover potential." Elsewhere in the project description it mentions the use of “humanized mice.” They used mice genetically modified with human lung tissue/cells for the in vivo experimentation.
The "spillover potential" refers to the ability of a virus to jump from animals to humans, which requires that the virus be able to attach to receptors in the cells of humans. SARS-CoV-2, for instance, is adept at binding to the ACE2 receptor in human lungs and other organs. I could be wrong, but I believe the S protein sequences refer to the S1/S2 furin cleavage site that the SARS-CoV-2 virus utilizes to access our cells.
There is evidence that the Wuhan Lab was conducting scientific research indirectly funded by the NIH that could create SARS-CoV-2. The scientists involved in the conference call and email exchanges conspired to suppress the lab leak hypothesis. The media, mainly the left-wing media, actively engaged in the suppression of the lab leak hypothesis.
Another piece of misinformation often cited in this debate is that it took 15 years to find the origin of the original SARS virus. That is true; that was how long it took to trace it to the actual bat species. But what we are looking for is the intermediate host. NIH PubMed: DOI:10.1126/Science.1087139 “Isolation and characterization of viruses related to the SARS coronavirus from animals in southern China” was published on September 4, 2003, and discusses how the virus was isolated from Himalayan palm civets and raccoon dogs in the animal market.
Quammen continues suppressing the lab leak hypothesis with his lack of candour on the facts. Continuing the suppression of a legitimate theory fuels the attack on the credibility of the scientific process. He mentions the “seeds of mistrust”; well, he is spilling those seeds of mistrust by continuing to spread the lies.
If Quammen wants to support the zoonotic origins hypothesis, he should cite the scientific evidence supporting it and not disparage those with other views. He should admit to the coverup that occurred when challenged. There was a cover-up, and it needs to be exposed. I am politically left and very supportive of the scientific method, and it is because of that I think we have to call out and expose scientists that abuse their authority.
Both hypotheses have conspiracies. Quammen has never given a good argument for lab leak. Also there is zero good evidence for a natural spill because it's data given to us by China. There is strong evidence for a lab leak.
Who, name the 3 authors that made the false story on Ben Hoo?(Hu) Also, just stop eating animals.
We have serious issues to address, including the lack of sequencing directly from RNA (SARS-CoV-2 is an RNA virus requiring reverse transcription to DNA for sequencing and potentially for enrichment and amplification) and the lack of single molecule sequencing on the scale for public health. The last time I looked in PubMed, I did not see HLA (MHC-II) typing as part of the clinical trials (I have not looked in a while). Finally, we also have an issue with quantifying (or even qualifying) exposure. Finally, what happens if variants occur in the regions to which PCR primers anneal (see my first complaints)? Do we have an issue of typically requiring a positive PCR test before attempting NGS?
These kind of questions are discussed in detail on TWIV.
TWIV is ?
@@chrisfreebairn870This Week in Virology. Search Google. It's a blog run by Vincent Racaniello, professor of virology at Columbia U. medical school, who sequenced the polio genome. With 3 or 4 other scientists and/or MDs, he selects and discusses major articles on virology from the scientific literature. It started as a panel discussion he used to hold at the annual meeting of the American Society for Virology, and continued on CZcams. It's scientist-to-scientist, but they explain the basics so non-scientists can follow it. After COVID-19, their viewership exploded, but now they're back to other virus topics. He also has videos of his previous virology courses, free online.
@@chrisfreebairn870This Week in Virology.
It is available as a podcast and on CZcams.
A group of scientists with backgrounds in different aspects of virology discuss virology. Recently, the topic has often been COVID-19, but they have been around for much longer.
If you want to understand virology, TWiV is great.
.
@@chrisfreebairn870 I learned it here, but "This Week in Virology". Admittedly, I have yet to watch a show. I tend to listen while I work so visual is less frequent.
In lab
Of cause this is coincidence in era fo coincidences.
No one really cares at all!. We do care about the wealth gap,
🦍🐗🦔🦆Don't eat wildlife 🐒🐯🦔🐗🪼🐛🐛🦠🦠Spineless republican....🐛🐛🪼🦍🐗🦔🦆Don't eat wildlife 🐒🐯🦔🐗🪼🐛🐛🦠🦠Spineless republican....🐛🐛🪼
Third possibility is "It was deliberately introduced."
Ridiculous. In every conspiracy theory there has to be a conspirator that benefits usually financially. China’s economy tanked because of covid. Their population rioted. So please explain to me how they benefitted? Your ability to think logically is non existent!
Yep. By UAP's
Strange that more time wasn't spent discussing the Dept. of Energy and FBI origins investigations results. This was a weird conversation, almost like a jump back in time to shortly after the pandemic began. Also, he conflates "cynicism" with Occam's razor :)
According to the report of the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, 4 intelligence agencies favored natural origins with "low confidence," FBI had "moderate confidence," 3 agencies undecided. Scientists do not usually cherry-pick only the reports they agree with.
@@norman_5623 the DOE verbiage disseminated through the media was confusing "low confidence that it most likely came from a lab...". I haven't seen the report, not sure if it was ever released in its entirety. I don't think simply referencing the report in an analysis, would be cherry-picking or unscientific though.
@@rodmotor It is cherry-picking when you have 8 intelligence agencies, and you pick the two that agree with you and ignore the 6 that disagree with you. It is definitely unscientific to reference a report based on informaton that you can't verify.
@@norman_5623 well you can defensively make cherry-picking accusations against somebody that didn't even state a position on something if it makes you feel "scientific". I'll have to read Quammen's report.
He's got a story, and he's sticking to it.
Food bat had a virus. A human on the farm ate it tartar, and passed it back to the bats (through a vector if necessary), who did the engineering, which were then driven by farm truck the 1,000 miles from where it was discovered to the lab. A truck is easily capable of 1,000 miles in under a day if two people (or a very awake singular) drive.
The intermediate step animal was one or two animals from one farm brought by one farm truck, then to a human that enjoyed some raw bat meat... not hard to do. Ever drive a truck? This will be a bugger to find origin, but it's a farm truck that ranches bats. There wouldn't need to be more than one infected bat. The virus might not fare well in bats, but it's new in humans.
It is not manufactured. Lab, funded in China? Why are you stating the obvious and usually expected? Lab personnel have to be able to spend local currency! The buffoonery in Washington let the world's guard down by pulling US assistance and funding from many world health organizations. 45 sacked the early warning system! That's how it started!
*fruit bat, not food bat
@@18_rabbit Fruit bats used as food... food bats.
There are a couple of big problems with that theory. First, the furin cleavage site is not found in coronavirus strains in the wild and second, the orginal strain of Covid was incredibly well adapted to humans which is not how it usually goes with a spillover unless a primate is the vector. It also seems unlikely that someone would collect bats and drive them a long distance just to sell them for meat, especially in China.
It's a by -ohh way pun 😊
There is a reason that people are afraid of doktors and our medical system.
Because it for pay and not for public good.
The good vs. bad dynamic is playing out in front of our very eyes, from Washington to Beijing. It’s so obvious that no one with the slightest cultural awareness even denies it anymore. The unconvincing shallowness of both interviewer and interviewee-who evidently thinks name-dropping covers his naïveté-sounds like Jedi Mind tricks: “Nothing to see here, move along.” I’ve lost respect for the Amanpour standard, now, and will have to go searching for a quality news show, again. Pity, they’re so hard to find.
If you're interested in learning more about this topic, I highly recommend Dr. Valentin Bruttel's presentation that covers all the evidence collected so far.
@@michaelcre8Yes, and I highly recommend you also read Vox, How to read a controversial preprint paper on Covid’s origins; A trio of researchers claimed they found likely evidence that the virus that causes Covid-19 was synthetic. And then scientists went to work picking the theory apart. By Kelsey Piper, Oct 26, 2022.
Thanks for the tip
@@michaelcre8
Have you read Alina Chan @Ayjchan?
@@dannybrashear5857Yes, I read a couple of her articles, and I saw a panel organized by Science magazine with her as one of the panelists. She believes that the lab leak is possible, and we can't find out with more certainty because the matter has been politicized. I agree.
Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake. - Napoleon Bonaparte
😊
Sounds like a lot of “he said/she said” crap, especially the motive stuff.
The only evidence I care about is the empirical data.
It's a lot of "the scientists said this/the non-scientists said that."
ဝေသာလီပြည်ဘီးလူးဝင်စီး