The Rationality VS Spirituality Debate | Russell Brand & Tim Minchin
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- čas přidán 23. 11. 2020
- Whose perspective do you relate to more?
Taken from my podcast with Tim Minchin! We discussed creativity, rationalism, spirituality, theology, music, the origin of consciousness - and whether our very differing opinions on nearly of all of those subject matters?
You can listen my Under The Skin podcast in full on Luminary: luminary.link/russell
Tim’s debut studio album, Apart Together, is available now:
tim-minchin.lnk.to/ApartToget...
Twitter: @timminchi
Instagram: @ timminchin
Website: timminchin.com
Instagram: / russellbrand
Twitter: / rustyrockets
Produced by Jenny May Finn (Instagram: @jennymayfinn)
“You said a lot of things there” 🤣 Love Tim.
Well I was thinking the exact same thing. I was like, "WHAT?"
Can Russell just once, ask a coherent question without rambling on incoherently? Tim you were concise and thoughtful.
i enjoyed Russells vids a couple of years ago , now he's just all over the show. and always comes in the same thing that has some conspiracy thing. It's really another addiction . i am going to watch this because Tim is brilliant and i want to hear how he gets a word in.
@@alysmarcus7747 I love Tim he's been one of my top 3 musical influences for like 15 years now but the fucking irony of TIM being the one not able to get a word in is so funny to me lmfao
Russells on speed 🌝
@@steviegreenthumb4720 he actually could get a word in if he wanted to but as well as being brilliant and talented he is also well-mannered.
@@alysmarcus7747 omg so true. conspiracies activate dopamine and get people excited
Your consciousness is mostly mineral ions flowing across a fat membrane when one side of the fat membrane has more ions that otherside.
One could say "god" is the sodium/potassium/ATPase pump in all neurons lol.
And the feeling of togetherness and feeling of meaning or something more is a lie from the serotonin neurotransmitter "filters" on your thoughts (which are the glutamate neurotransmitter system).
Dopamine also can to us when under stress to motivate us to keep us alive.
Best to think someone is lying or gaslighting you when they arent and not be killed than to believe them and be killed but serotonin could make you over trust people and only see good in them so you need both to get accurate picture.
Thats why when ppl use dopamine drugs like meth rhey think neg about everyone and are insecure so back in the day you would survive and prevail;
Dopamine is suppose to make you paranoid and distrust; its a stress neurotransmitter related to adrenaline (both are catecholamines with norepinephrine as an intermediate; adrenaline and norepinephrine is made from dopamine)
Dopamine and Serotonin are a type of thought filter. I like to think of it like Dopamine neurons are the devil on one shoulder and the Serotonin neurons are the angel on the other and you are the Gluatmate neurons.
Its so obvious consciousness is many neuronal firings (mostly Gluatmate neurons as that is the thought and senses neurotransmitter) its insane people believe otherwise; sorry but its really delusional; caused by serotonin though filtering but it feels good to feel like theres something special happening.
And we were already dead for all of human history and the universes history. We were already nothingness for all that time so logically we just go back to that after; but egos are too big and our brains cant process that error in imagining we don't exist
(except its easy to think of not existing before birth but not after death, its hypocrisy to have a double standard like that)
🎶Let’s not know the origin of consciousness together🎵
I love this song
Could u give me the name of the song pls?
@@antoniofourcade7445 Russel's parodying Tim's song "Peace for Palestine"
Love it !
Tim did a great job in this discussion with Russell rambling through his questions and comments! Tim is a genius, extremely talented, and a wise man who is “deep as bro”!!!
agreed
Your consciousness is mostly mineral ions flowing across a fat membrane when one side of the fat membrane has more ions than otherside.
One could say "god" is the sodium/potassium/ATPase pump in all neurons lol.
And the feeling of togetherness and feeling of meaning or something more is a lie from the serotonin neurotransmitter "filters" on your thoughts (which are the glutamate neurotransmitter system).
Dopamine also can to us when under stress to motivate us to keep us alive.
Best to think someone is lying or gaslighting you when they arent and not be killed than to believe them and be killed but serotonin could make you over trust people and only see good in them so you need both to get accurate picture.
Thats why when ppl use dopamine drugs like meth rhey think neg about everyone and are insecure so back in the day you would survive and prevail;
Dopamine is suppose to make you paranoid and distrust; its a stress neurotransmitter related to adrenaline (both are catecholamines with norepinephrine as an intermediate; adrenaline and norepinephrine is made from dopamine)
Dopamine and Serotonin are a type of thought filter. I like to think of it like Dopamine neurons are the devil on one shoulder and the Serotonin neurons are the angel on the other and you are the Gluatmate neurons.
Its so obvious consciousness is many neuronal firings (mostly Gluatmate neurons as that is the thought and senses neurotransmitter) its insane people believe otherwise; sorry but its really delusional; caused by serotonin though filtering but it feels good to feel like theres something special happening.
And we were already dead for all of human history and the universes history. We were already nothingness for all that time so logically we just go back to that after; but egos are too big and our brains cant process that error in imagining we don't exist
(except its easy to think of not existing before birth but not after death, its hypocrisy to have a double standard like that)
i like that you used the phrase im dying
Can we all just agree that whether you’re a spiritualist or atheist, that global rule #1 should be: don’t be an a**hole?
Unfortunately the problem is we don't agree on what makes someone an a**hole
I’m a spiritual atheist (I have a sense of woo but I know that it comes from within me and not from any gods) and yeah the number one rule should be Don’t Be Cruel. That pretty much covers how not to be an asshole.
I dated an atheist and his mantra was do unto others. Very sound.
The problem is we all have a bit of Ahole in us, it's called our shadow side.
What’s the basis of not being an a whole? Random chance? Blind amoral forces of nature
"...Talking about confirmation bias, and being clever-clever, and talking fast. Have you ever met anyone like that?"
Well played, Tim.
Did it in his face.
Every time he spoke I picked up 2 sticks and forgot why he was talking. Having an extensive vocabulary and being articulate and in depth aren’t the same thing 😂
@@EscepticismoRacional He was talking about himself as much as he was talking about Russel. He has songs like this.
I feel that even with Russell ranting and going off on tangents, Tim held this conversation and made very valid points. Russell needs to shorten his sentences and make bullet points as many of his guests can’t follow let alone you tube followers. Tim really came across as the better in this debate.
His diplomacy dike held up very well. :D
Greg Jensen your comment is exactly what I was thinking!!!
I do this in debates, I really need to draw back and speak more simply 😅
@@grejen711white vest ✔️ man bun ✔️ a pigeon hole begins to form
Just happened across this by chance and I applaud Tim for not telling Brand to just float the fuck away.
😂❤👏🏽👍🏽 Tim is so nice and funny
Hear hear. He's just Storm with a man bun
It's nice to have a guest on who doesn't just nod and smile when Russell breaks out the woo.
Agreed, its like people worship Russell when they need to be in their own essence and speak/respond to him from that place 👏
I am glad that someone else in the comments sections understands that Russell is a woo practitioner.
I suppose we all just sprang from nothingness did we brendon, like out of some sort of big bang?
@@karldobson2672 What has that got to do with it?
I would hardly call the evolution of such a complex organ as the brain, and the complex organism that it is connected too, as springing from nothingness.
I mean really, were you actually trying to present some profound question there?
@@brendonleary hey brendon .. i was just calling you on your douchebag reply, and seems i got another one.. maybe your a hypocrite?
I grew up in a very Christian home but it was when I gave up on my spiritual quest and accepted the meaninglessness of life that I felt at rest in my soul.
Same
Tim is a very good listener and you can tell he really makes the effort to choose his words carefully to effectively communicate his ideas.
- (probably what Tim's teachers wrote on his report cards)
"Lets not know the origin of consciousness together!" Now that is a quote.
He is using Tim’s song. He is quoting Tim.
I'm 100% in Tim's camp, but I give mad respect for Russel's dialogue to the point where Tim takes notes.
He has to because he verbalises too much so it’s easy to lose the many points.
@@chalkiememe4183 I agree, I also give Tim mad respect, it takes a VERY confident person to take notes in any conversation like this. Tim is a brilliant man, but Russel, will often intentionally make his questions so intense and complicated that the original question gets lost. Tim's note taking suggests, "I know what you're doing, I'm taking notes, not only to better equip myself to answer your point, but to also show you I KNOW what your're doing."
Russel gishgalloped
Tim’s perspectives here are more convincing and hold up better under scrutiny than Russell’s, to me anyway
Everybody with at least half a brain would agree with you :)
The moment Russel said "the idea that consciusness emerges from matter requires precisely the same kind of faith that the opposite view requires", he pretty much declared he's ignoring the last 150 years of progress...
@@desrocchi oh cool, so you can prove that consciousness does arise from matter then? would love to see it
@@imthebananafritter First of all, that's not what I said in my answer at all.
The two postulates do not require the same amount of "faith" simply using a very old tool like Ocaam's razor.
We know matter and consciusness exist, what is this third and unexplained entity that Russell introduces?
Nevertheless, we have an unnumerable amount of studies that show how changing the underlying matter changes the emerging consciousness.
This happens not only with drugs, but it also occurs naturally with so called "emotions" like fear, love, sadness... which are nothing but changes in our brains' chemical influx.
This works not only for humans, but for other animals and insects too.
So yes, unless a huge discovery that changes everything we know happens, consciousness emerges from matter.
Postulating that it's infused in us by an outside entity is religion, not science.
@@desrocchi you make some interesting points, I particularly like the one about consciousness being altered by things such as drugs/emotions. I also liked how you used the word "postulate" twice. You must be very intelligent.
Unfortunately it still seems that while you've correctly identified that matter (A) and consciousness (B) exist, and elaborated on their known correlation, you haven't demonstrated how B arises from A.
You only have to go to university for a year to become familiar with "correlation does not equal causation", yet here you are, a person who knows what "postulate" means, using the same fallacy in a youtube comment section.
So yeah, you don't know that consciousness arises from matter because you can't prove it, no one has yet. The belief that it does is a fair one, but it ultimately relies on faith, just as the idea that consciousness is inherent within everything does, so Russell's point was a valid one.
Tim Minchin, like or similar with Russell, a provocative "King's jester" comedian on the outside, but more profoundly a wise sage or a sage in discovery on the inside. It's incredibly profounding to witness these archetypes being manifested, and they're there in times when they're called for it, particularly in unstable times.
Exactly! Just like jim carrey also
What?
Yes. Thanks for reminding me to be grateful I’m alive when they’re alive. I often look back at people I admire who have died and realize oh my gosh I shared this time on the planet with them, but I wasn’t aware of them then. So it’s lovely to be alive when they’re alive and be able to appreciate them. Which thought I probably could edit but oh well. 🤓
I was waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting for Russell to either get to or make a point. I'm still waiting.
Thank you Tim for the refreshing simplicity of your worldview. Why do so many people see the need to spoil the beauty of physics and the inevitability of life in the universe by inserting self-aggrandising woo-woo into their arguments?
There's nothing woo-woo about panpsychism, it has a lot of 'respectable' adherents.
..because they desire aggrandizement and no one else will provide it for them.
NEVER REGRET A DAY IN YOUR LIFE:
Good days give happiness
Bad days give experiences
Worst days give lessons
And Best days gives memories
Beautiful ,yes I agree and right now broke my ankle in three places ;had pinned to heal. And I am really learning did right before Halloween .surgeon said three months to heal. .learning how to deal with each day for sure . .god has always been there for me and I'm talking more to him cause it's hard. Love all around😁💞💖
I think all days give lessons if you just reframe your mindset.
What about the unproductive, depressive days?
. . . and days on mushrooms cannot be underestimated!
@Tom Wells Wallow in a state of perpetual self pity. That or clean your room/work out.
Russell has interesting ideas, but he could do well to learn from Tim's conciseness and humility. Listen more, make fewer arguments and look for agreement - rather than presenting yourself as a genius guru all the time.
I think that's because it's his small cut of a much longer podcast
@Kamryn I agree he can be impressively self aware, but in this clip he seems very attached to a specific worldview at the expense of being more open minded
I like that they’re making arguments.
It makes for a way more interesting conversation.
It would be such an annoying and boring conversation if they just agreed considering they are both so out spoken with contradictory beliefs.
Why did you share this opinion?
@@MrKelso85 What a stupid question. Surely the only point of the comments section is for people to discuss their opinions.
To ignore either ignore an essential part of life - unfortunately too many people seem to pick a camp and stay there rather than play amongst the spectrum
Mr Minchin the Aussie treasure, says he doesn’t lose sleep over the prospect life could be entirely devoid of meaning because he’s making meaning from possibly nothing. And then drops the exquisite metaphor at 2:20 “I don’t think writing a song is particularly different from doing some nice plumbing”. Could Plato have put it better mate.
He has a way with words, seeing beauty in the mundane. Who else could bring a tear to your eye with lyrics about batteries? (Apart together)
What he was saying didn’t really make sense to me. If his life has meaning in it then life is obviously not devoid of meaning.
@@zachford9889 He meant that his life has no _intrinsic_ meaning, nothing does, meaning comes from what we value and care about. No one cares about the life of Mrs Vanderbilt in the Midlands since her husband died, they don't even know who she is. The Universe doesn't care about Mrs Vanderbilt but her life has meaning to _her_ - or maybe not, I don't know, I've never met her.
It puzzles me why people are ok with meaning coming from dead stuff is fine (and apparently logical) but meaning coming from meaning scares people like Tim. It seems like science needs to hit reverse and get itself out of this cul de sac, the panpsychists and quantum physicists are convergent allies now, not enemies, these guys never read magic books in the first place.
@@bradmodd7856 Meaning doesn't come from dead stuff, it comes from living beings that value something.
How do you know that your tautology scares Tim ?
poor tim, having to sit through that word salad and try to figure out how to respond to it in a way that's polite and substantive
I swear there are sections of this video where I can see Tim writing a song about it in his head.
Or a 9 minute beat poem
If only Russell would have talked less in this.
I'm not sure he can help himself
Minchin putting Russell in his place nicely there. I accept he is a naturally fast talker but Brand needs to slow down his speech because his verbosity is a hindrance to understanding, and perhaps, a deliberate distraction.
I very much disagree that it's a deliberate distraction. He has a very quick mind, and is very excited about his spiritual explorations.
Agreed. I've noticed he tends to become more verbose when attempting to justify his perspectives to people he can't win over with his charm.
@@fitprotunes well that’s a shame - he has no need to justify his experiences
@@topologyrob do you believe all perspectives are of equal value?
@@fitprotunes No. But I also agree with Ken Wilber that everyone's right, even if it's just a little bit.
That was an amazing butt kicking for Rusty... Tim calmly said 'you talk too much and think too little' basically
Trying to follow the flow of Russell's thoughts is like trying to snowboard on an avalanche.
0.5 might help
@@akaballechoes and here i am watching on 2x lmaoo
Not rly if you see how many gaps in logic he makes
Brand pretends to know things he can't or doesn't know; then he conflates skepticism with certainty against a claim. That's the essential problem.
I’m a fan of both Minchin & Brand. But I’ve been scrolling through a lot of these comments trying to find someone who could vocalise the weird vibe I get from this exchange. Yours, sir, hits the nail on the head.
Tim’s little smile at the beginning when Russell referred to his rationalism as “devout” 😉
Yes, spotted that immediately !
*Russell* couldn't resist poisoning the well.
I thought the same thing. Like he aimed to disarm him straight away.
My two favourite people!! Love this ♡
The world can only start to change when two people with opposing views can be together in the same space and listen and discuss without trying to change the other's point of view. They are both valid and both working for the individual and whether you believe in "magic" or not as long as your life is fulfilling and you're always exploring new things IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER.
It matters when you attempt to use your particular magical beliefs to make decisions for other people by force.
Well said telling young children if you don’t believe in God (to which there is no proof of)you will burn in hell(a place there is no proof of also) for eternity is utterly disgusting
Russell talks a lot without really saying much, whereas Tim is the opposite. Why write a thesis when you can explain your views in a sentence?
I like the way russell explains though, he expands on details until he eventually gets to a very concise point
Yep! You are spot on.
Russell just needs more words
@@bcoldwell1 Something like that 😂
How many words would it take for a physicists to explain quantum mechanics to a newtonian physicists? It is easier to be a doubter than it is to be a defend a theory or an ideology based the metaphysics. Tim is a doubter so less words are needed. Imagine a neuroscientist explain neuroscience to a bricklayer. I'd imagine there would be a lot of words from the neuroscience than there is from the bricklayer.
It would be hard to follow a Russell Brand run on sentence
As a not-native speaker, I find it difficult to follow any Russell Brand sentence. Haha.
Russell is unaware of his bias it seems , where as Tim is aware Russell's and his own, which are evident in the way Tim speaks slower with much more thought and critical thinking than behind his words.
Both talk of meditation, needs to be taught everywhere for mental health.
Teach our children at home...no need to wait for saviours.
*Jake Emms* I've heard that said of Boxing and other sports. It depends on the person and their circumstances, a one size fits all is rarely the answer.
Love you Russell but feel you dismissed Tim when he disagreed with your current belief system? It felt like you were trying to convince him and Tim was agreeing to disagree...you both, we all, want the same outcome for the world...it really doesn’t matter how we get there as long as people, love and care come first 💕
A good Aussie bloke that Tim Minchin! 😊
Brand's, "your worldview is incredibly destructive, causes all of the problems and offers no positive solutions, unlike my enlightened worldview" schtick, was a bit tiresome. Never mind that it's totally unfounded. Tim was a perfect gentleman in response, constantly striving to find points of agreement and ways to avoid heightened confrontation. In a sense, his demeanor and calmness was a perfect rebuttal of Brand's accusations. In contrast Brand, although claiming to be more open-minded, came across as the more dogmatic of the two.
I've been wondering how a conversation on this exact topic would sound like between you both. It was interesting to see how you had a meaningful discussion while obviously approaching the idea of consciousness from opposite sides. Great stuff as always Russell.
In the end it don’t matter what you believe, it matters how you behave.
@@RussellBrand How you behave depends largely on what you believe so we can dismiss that little deepity.
@Douglas Not at all. A lot of people live in a contradiction between their beliefs and their actions. It happens all the time. So actions are what matters, and only some times these are grounded on beliefs.
@@simonrodriguez4685 Conscious versus unconscious beliefs.
@@RussellBrand" doesn't " matter 😂
Tim Minchin is a genius.
The look on Tim Minchin's face at 4:39 when he's thinking "wtf here we go" 🤣 ! Love them both though. With a preference to what Russel is saying, once you get past the big words
sqeeeeeee! the interview i didn’t see coming but so glad to see
The one that knows the least is usually the one that talks the most.
I love the thing Tim said about having supernatural beliefs and expecting earthly results. That people can believe in supernatural things, but if you want real world earthly results, you should have to prove that your belief is real before you can talk about having real results.
❤👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👍🏽👍🏽
This limitation of the senses Brand talks about that applies to the scientific method ALSO applies to spirituality. “Spirituality” does not grant one access to anything beyond the scenses, even if it feels like it when meditating, on drugs, or other altered states of consciousness. I’d love to hear Brand and Minchon talk for ten hours!
That was beautifully said. I agree; although I think the spiritual approach perhaps keeps you presently aware of the limitation of the senses more regularly than the scientific method might
I just wish people would not speak of one way of thinking to be more accurate or effective. It’s different for everyone. We also all have something to add to the collective, but if you haven’t done the seeking, which Tim admits to not have done, you don’t really have my attention. I shouldn’t really judge him though we all have different perceptions and experiences. I just don’t get anything from this conversation. Brand is more of my style of thinking.
@@samkeen The scientific method is a methodology for arriving at empirical knowledge. Spirituality is essentially the business of self transcendence. They are perfectly compatible. And having a scientific mindset (philosophical more broadly) is one of the ways you reduce your capacity for self deception. Spirituality does not have a good track record in this regard - that's because being spiritual doesn't make you a good thinker. And that's why it needs supplementing with the kind of education that a scientific-philosophical approach can give. Scientists have to be deeply aware of thier presupositions - even if they dont always succeed - people who are so called spiritual are mostly nutbags. Few of them know what they are talking about. Sam Harris being one.
@@nickpharo5300 Agreed, as Wittgenstein said "The hardest thing to do is not to deceive yourself". I think the biggest life lesson to be learned from the scientific approach is that of determinism, to be able to recognize moment to moment the workings of cause and effect, the limitations or lack of free will and all noticable emergent happenings of that reductionist idea.
@@biogeniclife what a pseudo rational answer. Oh its all just people and thier ideas, we cant speak to one above the other. Educate yourself. Not all knowledge is created equal. We are all the same species with the same congitive apparatus. If someone has a wild a whacky untestable assumption about the world, its not usually because they have insight nobody else has, its because they have an unjustified belief. Minchin has the upper hand here. Belief is the central touchstone. What is jusfited in the name of a supernatural power or a divine word will alwasy be more pernicious than the harm done in the name of reason. Becuase at least reason is amenable to reason (theoretically at least), whereas faith can justify anything. Absolutely anything. The most dangerous ideas, therefore, are those that answer to nobody becuase they have been codified by divine tradition and are impervious to roeformation or revision.
it's like they are the same man from different dimensions
England and Australia?
annaka harris, sam harris' wife wrote a book blieving in pansychism, and so does Sam Harris
Me and Tim meet each other through a black mirror each night and dream each other’s lives.
@@RussellBrand hahaha nice one Russell ;)
@@RussellBrand I saw that!
Where Russell basically says "I took some mind altering shit and some crazy shit happened" well, yes! Almost by definition your brain state has been tampered with and that doesn't necessarily lead to truth.
It quite often leads however to an expanded state of thinking and understanding, allowing oneself to think beyond one's normal constraints and thus allowing for more possibilities and perspectives to come in.
@@danl1918 yeah I get that. I still think that people sometimes take far too much wisdom from these sorts of experiments. Is it possible that it only really just taps into pre-conceived, subconscious ideas and then it takes some cognitive gap filling and conclusion jumping retrospectively?
I love how creative, quirky, thoughtful, and articulate both these guys are without being snobby or tedious. Also, accents. Edit: yesh ok Russell did blather a bit. But he’s trying to express complexity.
*DreamingCatStudio* I think that if you can't articulate something simply you don't properly understand it yourself.
Man, love Tim. Dude was such a big part of my early childhood. My bro scholars back in the day were Tim Minchin, Russel Brand, Robert Newman, George Carlin, Stanhope
If these two joined forces they would truly be unstoppable
Tim. But I love the sign-off: "let's not know the origin of consciousness together!" hahaah brilliant stuff
Wow, was this an interview? Seemed like Russell liking the sound of his own voice.
i enjoyed this because though russell gets a lot of props for not arguing with other guests i think there's a case where you care for someone and you just want to share your view, it's not about fighting it's just ''letting them in'' and actually going back and forth is a sign of comfortability
Yeah I'm with Tim on this one. Greed is greed, it's an old word, it's been there a long time and the greedy don't give a shit about religion or rationalism or politics or anything else. They'll use the tools at their disposal to take what they can. They always have. We have the capacity to be selfish beings but we can also be altruistic beings. Partly it's choice but there's going to be genetics involved and also nurture. Most of us will be a not too horrendous mix of the 2 but some will be saints and some will be sinners. To me there should be one underpinning ethos that binds us all as a species "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Every aspect of your moral life should boil down to that. It's not religion, it's just being humane.
“F*** off with your magic book” has to be the greatest response to organised religion I’ve ever heard 😂👏
Yeah, so epic. You realise that book helped them survive for millennia, and your secular world has been around for mere decades, right?
Lemme know how that works out for you.
@@MeanBeanComedy yeah the elite couldn't have done so well with everyone else's lives and property without it-
@@trocarcat It's not just the elite who have benefitted. Braindead leftist take.
@@MeanBeanComedy And do you realize humans have been running around at hundreds of millennia before your magic book? What ever did we all do as a species to know murder is bad, stealing is wrong, slavery is evil...oh wait, that one's not in your fancy little book there is it?
And I'm assuming from your brashness you must be from the US so let's use an example you might be aware of. Your founding fathers created a secular scaffold for your country. What a scary place that must be to live for you.
@@MeanBeanComedy also killed quite a few..
If you open your mind too much, your brain might fall out.
When Tim said the word “prejudice” I cracked a smile. Iykyk
Wonderful, thank you, making me want to subscribe to luminary this one hehe!... Love to hear all of it
Reminded me somewhat of Minchin's Storm beat poem, where Brand is the poem's namesake. And to (probably) misquote a line or two. Brand is like a "Sniper using bollocks for ammunition" with Minchin being "caught in the headlights of vacuus crap"
I actually think Tim means 'Empiricism' when he says 'rationalism'.
Rationalism can in reality be greatly flawed, since we are NOT rational creatures.
I've listen to Tim's stuff for a decade and this certainly makes more sense, to me
Loved your serie UPRIGHT....also your musical abilities, I mean your singing and playing....what a relief that serie,thanks...wish you well,Sylvia
What a joy!! Russell, my daughter is generating a worldwide movement now that I believe is very much your approach and it is spiritual, inclusive and joyful! And Timmy Min, my invisible friend is Tony the fish and I'm a bit envious of your friend's mum having her cataracts healed by god thru prayer. Money... I have a belief in God, but I agree with both of you completely. I find miracles everywhere... like watching you two argue so completely on the same side is a hoot. PLEASE TALK MORE.
"Taking up spiritual life brings us from hopeless ends to endless hopes."
Sripad Siddhanti Maharaja
Exactly - hopes not truths.
Meaningless deepity - Russel would like that.
"...your devout rationalism"
Rationalism *Russell,* just rationalism. Spiritualists and the religious feel that they have to qualify rational behaviour and belittle it, ironically using the words that describe their own, and bring it down to their level where they hope to beat you with experience.
You do it again when you claim that it takes faith to accept that thought is a function of the brain, a natural process - show that it is - could be - anything other than natural *Russell,* demonstrate that a supernatural exists before Gish galloping any more extraordinary claims.
Brilliant. I am glad that people like you allow the public to confirm their support in some of this thinking at least. Especially in the economy, opportunity/ happiness front.
Faith is not required in making great art or good decisions. And one might say, "Well, It couldn't hurt...right?"
But it's not what we call the door, it's where it leads. And it's not why we do, but that we choose to walk through.
PS love hearing you two speak. So different yet the same like a yin and a yang ☯
Without faith in oneself, how can one be sure to make good decisions? Usually, people that don't have faith in themselves fail to make any decisions at all. If you don't have faith in the integrity of a chair, you wouldn't sit on it. Faith and belief determined from our perceptions, rather than just senses, has a grip on our behavior. Even in making art, whatever your particular method or style, there is a faith and assurance in it. Performing arts especially, you need to have faith in your team and your crews, that everyone will hit their cues, so you don't worry about them and just focus on putting on the best performance that you can.
Plumbing and writing a Song. Loving it!
Love these chats! Stay safe all! Thanks again Russell for doing what you do 🙏❤️
Saw Tim live last night and he is one of the nicest, most genuine people I've heard speak. He is also notably intelligent, insanely talented and very, very funny. It's no wonder many people credit him with changing their worldviews. You can tell he lives what he teaches - critical thinking, empathy and appreciation for the world from a scientific perspective.
This is the convo I have been waiting for!
That was intense!
Why it's gotta be a debate though...what it is an endless stew with many succulent chunks of rationality and many chunks of spirituality...when one is able to happily devour that stew...well then...and only then can they truly be not only a debater but a masterbater
Thanks for a wonderful conversation.
Does Russell just like the sound of his own voice ? 😂 love tim always has refreshing views
This spoke to me on a personal level. It's like I said it to myself.
💜Love both these guys- awesome
What a fanstastic discussion - thank you
Really interesting conversation.
Although I am very much in the camp of Team Minchin/Gervais, I don't begrudge Russell's spirituality as it comes from a caring place. Where spirituality as applied to the masses, the problem for me is how it is exploited by power when it's taken to the extreme as in the case of Kenneth Copeland, Paula White, etc. Extremism is the destructive force, not the spirituality. Believe what you want especially if it gives you guidelines to live in harmony. I don't think rationality or spirituality is destructive at their core. The issue for me is essentially equality. What is destructive is when someone uses their belief as a reason to say that someone who doesn't believe as they do are lesser human beings. I've seen this with rationalists as well.
Nailed it!
Spirituality that comes from a good place? Ohhh right, you mean the stuff that you deem as reasonable, not those nutjobs blowing themselves up for no reason. They chose the bad kind of spirituality. Lmfao
@@marinagimenezleal Did you have a bad day?
@@farolitohernandez4392 I wouldn't know because your definition of "good " and "bad" are so up in the air that I don't even feel we speak the same language
@@marinagimenezleal I agree that we don't speak the same language. You might understand this then.......
I hear the sound of victory
I hear the sound of victory
I hear the sound of victory
I hear the sound of victory 🤣😂🤣
Aaaahhhh, I am not going to, but if there was ever a podcast to make me consider subscribing to Luminary, this would be it!
If it’s literally this one podcast just do the free trial?
@@TjMoon91 You make a bloody good point right there!
This meeting is basically “Storm” come to life.
To of my favourite people to listen to. Bless you both.
This is all well and good Russell, but I have to ask, when are you two going to don some eyeliner and weird hairstyles again? I think this is what the world needs right now, right?
I love Tim
and highly intelligent.
Wow i was early for this one
I feel like Russel's capacity for lateral thinking is both a benefit and a hindrance; lots of passion for entertaining ideas, but an incommensurate appreciation for dispassionate analysis.
As a Christian on a spiritual path.... this was interesting to say the least.
Ditto
@Jeff Peate love it
Do not become attached to either story. It simply is what it is.
This. 👏
"It simply is what it is" is a teaching from the enlightened position that can be heavily misused by other undeveloped humans to promote ignorance because "knowledge is unimportant". Some knowledge leads to delusion - yes. But you do need an understanding beyond your present experience if you are to make sense to life. We need to learn to live with the complexity of thought by making it flow more naturally and harmoniously with nature, not dismiss the importance of narratives and information.
That's my perspective. It needs improvement, but I just had to state the "first principles" of my thinking, as to provide a foundation for further arguments. Would love to hear feedback.
@@victorious4701 I don't think there is anything wrong with knowledge. It is what it is. Just make sure not to become attached. Also I noticed you said this " can be heavily misused by other undeveloped humans to promote ignorance " And this is my feedback to that specific sentence. "All unwanted thoughts lose their power when simply faced without judgment. Once you believe you must do something about an unwanted thought, you've granted it a power it originally didn't possess. A negative thought is only energetic resistance. Open acceptance evaporates it like touching a soap bubble."
Ha love it ☺️
Thank you guys. Perfect
Great debate. I feel I like I understand this one as I have talked to many "rationalists" and non-believers about God.
Me: trying to do my work and not procrastinate
CZcams: *_watch videos_*
Story of my life
This happens to me too
Can we get a video of the full interview please?
Yep. I'm agnostic, I have to remind myself when it comes to spiritual matter that just don't know. I don't know. It is possible that I can't actually know, but I should probably keep trying. Just keep trying to be a good person.
We are not meant to always agree but I liked this chat.
The truest exposure of truth in this way is by embracing your own selfless opportunities in life ..in service of your pet or child ...or family, friends or anyone in need. You'll have barely any time to wallow on yourself xx our self xx us xx
Great words from Tim Minchin who seems to express a toaist/middle way perspective on life through using rationality for his discernment to stay in the way.
Where we disagree is that I, possibly like Russell, enjoy diving into the woowoo river with the rest of the crowd, but only to emerge with new lessons before finding the next unknown and using my discernment there.
The issue I have with strict rationality is that just like blind faith, it is an extreme that can ironically blind you from the actual truth, which may not always manifest in the logical way we once thought.
This is why I believe that many people who identify as atheist actually and truly deep down, identify as anti-dogma.
With that said, were all on the same page.
annaka harris, sam harris' wife wrote a book blieving in pansychism, and so does Sam Harris
*Yash Lucid* "The issue I have with strict rationality is that just like blind faith, it is an extreme that can ironically blind you from the actual truth"
You can drop the word 'strict', it has no place there except to obscure what you are really saying, the exact same reason that Russell said 'devout' rationality.
Rationality has nothing to with faith - faith is the excuse people give when they can't justify their beliefs - the 'actual truth' (again, no need for the qualifier there) is more easily arrived at by taking a well engineered bridge across the 'woowoo river'.
Thank You Tim for your Graciousness , Diplomacy and Kindness . You are a Wise man
i love how i can watch him perform storm and then immediately then listen to russell brand ask him the question i would want to ask but could barely articulate, from the other side of the world btw.
Two of my favorite guys...I could listen to you both all night..❤
Russell seemed a bit more fixed to his ideology in this video.
Our truth change all the time but some truth are fixed.
that's what happens with religions
Not just in this video
I think it's absurd that "spiritual" people have to have a purpose and answers to everything. And it doesn't matter to them if it's real or not, if it just feels good they'll believe it. That's not how reality works. Things are real or false independent of your feelings.
They will say things like "But we have to have purpose!" Why? and "There has to be ultimate justice!" Why? Because it would make you feel better?
Why do they think that the universe should care about their feelings? Their thinking is pretty childish, isn't it?
The interesting thing is that consciousness as an emergent preexisting property is starting to gain scientific traction. Be interesting to see when the weight of evidence and peer-reviewed studies tip Tim towards this viewpoint.
From the moment it gets proven to be true it is no longer a point of view, it's a fact. And yes, I think it should be interesting for him (and for anyone really) to discover new things about reality. :)
I like how Russel Brand thinks. He can be a bit long winded, but he's also one of the few spirituallists I've heard of that can really explain thier belifs in a way that makes sencse.
He knows what he's talking about and he knows his philosphy well.