I don’t own a table saw; therefore, I don’t have a table saw sled. I watched your whole video (well done, good pace, clear, good video work and clips) to see your 2 cut method. I like it much better than the 5 cut method. I’m just in the time to check the squareness of my Kreg track saw table and Kreg Crosscut Station. I replaced my mitersaw and table saw with them plus kept my router table. So far haven’t missed either. I may not use some features available with them but this makes me feel safer and I am happy. Thank you SO much for your video. I’m also subscribing!
Thanks so much. I'm always impressed by people who can make works of art out of wood and other materials. That's not me, I'm just a regular guy who does, "good enough". If you haven't already found Peter Millard's channel you should check him out. He does amazing things with a track saw and an MFT table. He's an artist but really humble and explains things well. youtube.com/@10minuteworkshop?si=lcC4SOXPyIpPgxVa
Great video - and I totally agree that this is the only method you need. The accuracy is more than adequate if you are thorough - and if there is no gap, it's ninety as far as I'm concerned. I have been practicing this method thru my entire career, which dates back to the mid seventies. Never had a problem. The only thing I'd like to ad is that I don't let the pieces rub against the saw blade as I pull back. I prefer to remove them from the sled befor pulling back to keep the freshly sawn edge as pristine as possible. Another thing I might add is that I prefer to use either wood fibre board (i.e. Masonite) or MDF, as the edges tend to be less fuzzy than with plywood or solid wood. Greetings from Sweden. Peter
Great approach and explanation of the geometry of the two cut method. That 5 cut method is very intimidating for someone who’s not building a space shuttle.
Sometimes I think people get carried away. Wood expands and contracts a lot, saw blades flex depending on the rpms and cutting angle. Most woodworkers don't need 4 decimal point precision.
True, 90.2 is probably too much for a nice picture frame or jewelry box. You can get as accurate as the width of your sled. At 12" I couldn't get a 0.0015" Feeler gauge to fit. That means my error has to be less than 0.00075" over 12". Whatever that works out to be is fine for the work I do.
@@HouseDoctorRay No, it means your error is 0.0014" or less. You assume that not being able to insert a feeler means the gap is half of the feeler, when it only means the the feeler is too thick. still, not enough to worry about, but your statement was inaccurate
There are some great table saw builds on CZcams but this is the best “non bull***t” method that suits me as a novice. Just bought the Microjig kit for the grooves. Glad I came across your channel.
My father an old time machinist had showed me something about the same and said it’s wood you’ve got a few thousands of fuzz on your wood. I had forgotten how he had shown me, Thank You!
I built myself a sled for my proxxon FET and I was recommended the 5 cut method and when I was seeing all these formulas I was almost losing my mind. I'm not bad at maths but that seemed overkill. Thanks for this easy demonstration! Take care
2 genius ideas on that sled: The matchfit grooves instead of t-track and the extension for the stop block. As for aligning the fence it simply depends on the degree of accuracy someone needs: for most hobbyist woodworkers your two cut method will work just fine. (So will simply using a square placed against the rip fence and the sled fence, for that matter. ) Others will prefer the 5 cut method. That's the beauty of woodworking: We all have differing needs. No single idea, process, technique, etc., is ever right for everyone and your method will work quite well for many!
Ray, good to see you lead the break from all that stultifying rocket-science approach to making crosscut sleds. You are quite right; the two-cut method is all that's needed for woodworking. I've used an analogous one-cut method for 25 years for shop-made jigs and to set up new miter saws and to keep them tuned up in hard use. Never had a problem with accuracy, including for the exacting demands of boat joinery.
Great video! Two comments: one, make sure your front fence glue up is dead straight. Clamping the fence assembly to the saw’s table should work. Then, if you have a digital caliper, you can do the two-cut test with one piece. Cut the edge to “square”, then flip over to the other side (keep the same edge on the fence) and cut again. The difference in width at the ends is the same double error.
@@JohnColgan. no he's right, because the cut offs that are being compared were referencing the same edge when it was cut. you're incorporating a variable
Good job, but one caveat: you are assuming that your match grooves are perpendicular to the blade/kerf, which rests upon your assumption that the fence and the blade/kerf are parallel. If they are not parallel, your method won't work -- any method that relies on using the fence without checking it first and that relied on grooves/dados cut relying on that fence can't be relied on.
by flipping the piece you create the opposite angle of the first piece, thats how you work out a bad jointer for glue ups, by flipping the pieces to get matching but opposite angles (89°/91°)
This is one of the first things you learn as a carpenter apprentice in little Swissy land. Been using this method since 1976 to setup all my saws. Radial Arm Saw, Mitre-slider and Table saw. I used to hate the f-cking radial arm saws, because as an apprentice it was your job to make sure that they're all square. Got about 15 to 20 cuts out of it and those f-ckers were out by about 1/16th. over 12" wide board. Also hated them because they where f-cking heavy back then, at least 150 lbs. Guess who had to haul them around ? You guessed rite !!
Not sure how long it take to make 3 more cut, or how difficult to divide by 4 then divide by 2, I guess if you don't build octagon or even hexagon, for contractor and rafter square is good even to align there saw, some even use the saw out of box. for hobbyist this may work for them, this might be even good enough for picture frame, some fine woodworker who spend hours to sand a small piece of work always over engineer their work piece and it sucks for them when all the pieces were cut and find gap here and there, thats is frustrating. For me I and gonna spend that extra 3 minutes and divide by 4 instead of 2 and don't want to regret not getting perfect in the first place
Bravo! I’ve been commenting on this in just above every video that talks about it. If you can get a crosscut sled to within a 1/32” , even 1/16” , in the length you’re able to cut on it, that’s good enough for wood. I want to make things, not spend all my time adjusting jigs and things. One thing I haven’t seen in any video is saying to check the blade alignment with the miter slots before squaring up the sled. That alone could keep you busy for awhile.
Thanks. You're right about aligning the blade. I remember when I first got my saw it took a long time to get it right. Every time I did the final tighten it would pull out of wack. I finally ended up setting it out of parallel then tightened the bolts and it pulled into parallel. Of course not on the first try. They used to sell offset bushings and shims for cast iron saws just to deal with that. I guess they still sell them but thankfully I haven't had to mess with it since. Even survived a move on a landscaping trailer without needing adjustment.
1/16 is an error that absolutely could cause problems in making cabinets or any number of things. This is a great video tho because it does get a degree of precision that is absolutely adequate for cabinets or most anything else. The takeaway at least for me is not accepting a 1/16 or even a 1/32. You can achieve this simply by following this excellent method. I don’t think he’s saying to accept errors of this amount but that there’s a simpler method than the 5 cut. The point isn’t only that you “you’re able to cut on it.”
@@victoryak86 Yes, accuracy is a good thing and you should try to get it as close as you can. I’ve made a few cabinets in my day, without using a crosscut sled, because they weren’t a thing back then. Off the top of my head the only pieces of a cabinet that could be cut with a sled would be the rails and styles on the cabinets and the doors, depending on their style. But generally they would only be around 2” or so. If your sled is within a 1/16” in it’s cut capacity, which depending on the size of it would be around 10”, then, and I’m not going to do the math, the accuracy in a 2” cut would be 1/5 of 1/16”. That’s pretty small. Accuracy is great, but you need to check everything and not just rely on the sled. If your blade isn’t square to the miter slots or the fence, that’s going to cause problems too. And if the edges of the piece you’re cutting aren’t perfectly parallel to each other that could throw the crosscut off. This is a “to each his own” thing. Whatever makes you happy. I just think that when there are a bunch of videos saying you need to do something or you can’t make quality stuff, some freak out and kill themselves trying to adjust tools. Anyway, happy cutting.
Also the sled is one of the main accessories in the shop that you will build jig on it, the error carries on to your jig an it multiplies on to your work piece
This is a cool old-time trick, and really useful. Thank you for the great video. However, it makes me sad that the youtube algorithm makes it necessary to write "gotcha" titles (I am not faulting you for this at all). The five-cut method is also excellent, and totally misunderstood. William Ng is a teacher. In that role it's his place to demonstrate what he considers the best methods, and to provide his students with a path to accuracy and excellence. There's nothing wrong with starting at the most precise place possible. In my corner of the woodworking business, there is not such thing as "good enough". So, I'll continue to use five cut, and I will also add your trick to my collection :-).
I don't like the algorithm games we have to play anymore than the viewers do. The problem is us little guys have less than a second to get noticed by a viewer and maybe get a click, otherwise they're going to Izzy, Stumpy or Steve. Even as someone who does I'm guilty of the same viewer behavior, I normally go to those I've seen before and skip the others. Luckily I've found a few smaller channels that are really good like; Patrick Sullivan, Gakos, and Peter Millard. I appreciate your understanding and comment. Since you seem very knowledgeable and level headed maybe you could check out my miter saw video. It's basically the same method but it only works on the positive stops. I'm at a loss as to how to adjust the in between miter cuts like 45°. czcams.com/video/-IZQybYUMiM/video.htmlsi=vRz7Dcy-d94Emzkp
@@HouseDoctorRay hey man, sure do. It’s Tom Mclaughlan of Epic Woodworking. He’s another fantastic woodworker, has a number of courses along with YT channel. He’s been at it for decades too and is definitely a master in the true sense. He has a number of articles in Fin Woodworking as well. All that said, he’s down to earth and funny and a great teacher as well. I love learning from him but also from guys like yourself and others as that’s how we can all improve. Anyway I’ll add a link for that particular video. Cheers and look forward to delving into your other content.
I'm ready to build a new small sled I designed. I will compare your method to the 5-Cut method to see how much difference I find, if any. I agree the 2-Cut should be accurate enough. After all, it is wood.
Keep in mind they are really both the same test. The 5 cut requires you make 4 cuts, cut a piece off and divide the results by 4. You are just compounding the error then dividing to get back to it. Either way works fine I like the simpler way to get the same result.
this is fine and dandy for small sleds. the 5 cut method was developed to tune large format sliders for precision full sheet cuts. my slider cuts perfect over 10'. no two cut system is going to get you there.
the 5 cut method was popularized by the european companies making these saws for calibrating the crosscut fences. its even illustrated in italian in my user manual.
This is a perfect example of why the phrase “ close enough for woodworking “ is just plain ignorant . If the phrase was true there wouldn’t be $10000 sliding table saws. It all depends on how accurate you want to work, how you work and what you are building.You have to be pretty ignorant to think that other people don’t work to higher tolerances. One guy is happy with drawers that rattle in there openings the next guy relies on slides and the next guy wants drawers that close on a cushion of air,and spends days or weeks fitting them. No one has the right to say one is right and one is wrong. There are flaws in both the way he built the sled and in the way he measured the error. He is assuming the fence is flat( it probably isn’t it should have been glued up in cauls) with his method of cutting 2 boards of similar width he is registering over a small area of the fence. By using the 5 cut method with a rectangular board, you are referencing over a couple areas of the fence. And by measuring the error using the fence as the reference it is very possible the fence is cancelling out some of the error. The 5 cut method measures the results without the fence influencing anything. His method is fine for a lot of woodworkers but a lot of high end woodworkers will find it unacceptable.I once built a crosscut sled using an aluminum t track extrusion assuming it was pretty flat. The slight difference in squareness depending on the length of the part drove me crazy, even though I squared the ends on a shooting board. Again you have to be pretty ignorant to say”close enough for woodworking” BTW with a big slider I assume you build high end cabinets.
Going right now to see how bad my sled is using this method. I like it because I can visualize it and correct for it. Just a hobbyist, so, not building for NASA.
The 2-cut method is much less complicated than the 5-cut, but would you not get the fence just as square by fixing it with 1 screw on the right, then with an accurate set square against the blade?
It's not easy to set a square accurately against the blade because the teeth are set and may not be set all the same amount. Easier is to set the square against the miter groove (assuming that your blade is aligned with the groove).
@@markanderson2904 That's a good point, although if you have a conventional sled it will cover up the miter grooves, so you can't really do this very well
Except for the fact that many of them are not exactly 90 degrees! You mihgt be surprised at how far off some of them are, especially the ones you buy from the big box stores.
They're both doing the same thing. With the 5 cut method you just keep rotating the board. This quadruples the error. Then you divide by 4, and use a digital caliper.
nice video thanks, question since you have screwed the back fence to the sled, how would you correct it (unscrew and keep testing until you get the 2 cut method correct and then screw new holes to hold fence to sled- otherwise screw holes would be too loose wouldnt they?) ps thanks again.
That's why you start with two screws. To adjust take one out and tweak it. Put a new screw next to it. The first screw will be a pivot. Once you get it square then add more screws.
I used sanded pine. You just have to pick through it to find a good sheet. Sometimes you can find a sheet that isn't full of knots on the back. You should sand the bottom to 220 and put polyurethane then wax so it slides nicely. I also use spray silicone even though it supposedly can interfere with the finish on your projects. Just wipe it up really well.
That would be a great short cut but how would you decide on which way or how much to correct the angle. I like the two cut. Simple and easy on the brain. If you correct the wrong way then you will know to correct the other direction.
Did anyone else find that the recommended direction to move the left side of the fence is backwards?? If the gap between the boards is at the top, the left side of the fence needs to move backward.
To solve puzzles like this, I like to exaggerate the difference in my head. You could even lay a sheet of paper on a table to mock it up. So, let's say the blade side of your left piece had a gap of two inches at the top. Which way would you need to move the left side of the fence to square it? For some reason, tiny gaps somehow mess with your head. But with big ones, the solution is obvious.
@@MjPersonal Good idea! That is exactly what I did. I created an error of 45 degrees with the left side moved forward. This creates a large gap at the front of the board. So to correct it i have to move the left side backward. But, i could be wrong. Maybe i need to use my other Left. LOL
If the gap is on the bottom you have to move the fence "upward". Imagine your left piece is tilted "to the left" a bit, when you cut it, the bottom of the piece will have more taken off. Thus creating a "gap " at the bottom..meaning you have to push the fence forward to correct for that gap..
If you analyze the 5 cut it is the same test only cutting 4 times plus your measuring strip. That is why you need to divide the difference by four. The 2 cut will get the same accuracy. The only way to make either method more accurate is to use a bigger test board.
@@HouseDoctorRay I don't think so, the 5 cuts are for accumulating error. If it is a perfect 90 degrees, then the cut sample should be the same width at both ends. This video has a demonstration of cutting out unequal width czcams.com/video/9Zs0ZjvUtew/video.html&ab_channel=SavvasPapasavva
@@HouseDoctorRay Five cut method is attempting to magnify the error so you can see it easier, that is really the core of it. The 2 cut method works fine if you have a long piece and are good with your eyes (if you can see gaps). Five cut method can be done with shorter pieces since it magnifies the error.
@@HouseDoctorRayWhile the 2 cut method "will get the same accuracy", correctly measuring the "inaccuracy" of the 2 cut is significantly more difficult. The 2 cut is still a great method for many (most?) woodworkers but you can't really compare the accuracy of the 2 methods. It's a case of "good enough for government work" vs. "precise" but GEFGW is all most hobbyist woodworkers are looking for.
@@garrettswoodworx1873what do you expect from someone that says “good enough for woodworking “ obviously not concerned with quality work. Or precision.Just “ good enough”
A concept you are missing regarding the 5-cut method is that the 5-cut method amplifies the alignment 5 times. The 2-cut method amplifies the alignment twice. The 2-cut method is 40% as accurate as the 5-cut method.
Actually the 5 cut method amplifies the error by 4 which is why you divide by 4 at the end. Error x 4 ÷ 4 = Error x 2 ÷ 2 They're the same, the only difference is how you measure the error.
Using so many tools to make as close to perfect as possible is basically theory. And it may work once. And only for you. Hats off to you. But too many compounding issue is being brought it. As complicated as the 5 cut method seems, it really isn’t and cost way less overall than this “2 cut” method
I’m only doing woodworking! All that time and using hard to read feeler gauges. Calipers are much easier. I just don’t see any real justification for not using the 5 cut method when you only need it so few times on this project. Why not eliminate as much error as you can?
A feeler gauge is just as, if not more, accurate than calipers. The two methods are essentially the same. With the 5 cut you quadruple the error then divide by 4. The 2 cut you double the error and divide by two. The only difference is which steel measuring instrument you put against relatively soft plywood. You do have the option with the 2 cut of not measuring anything and tweaking the fence until you have no gap. If you feel the need to use the 5 cut that's great. It's not necessary for me and the kind of work I do.
I don’t own a table saw; therefore, I don’t have a table saw sled. I watched your whole video (well done, good pace, clear, good video work and clips) to see your 2 cut method. I like it much better than the 5 cut method. I’m just in the time to check the squareness of my Kreg track saw table and Kreg Crosscut Station. I replaced my mitersaw and table saw with them plus kept my router table. So far haven’t missed either. I may not use some features available with them but this makes me feel safer and I am happy.
Thank you SO much for your video. I’m also subscribing!
Thanks so much. I'm always impressed by people who can make works of art out of wood and other materials. That's not me, I'm just a regular guy who does, "good enough".
If you haven't already found Peter Millard's channel you should check him out. He does amazing things with a track saw and an MFT table. He's an artist but really humble and explains things well.
youtube.com/@10minuteworkshop?si=lcC4SOXPyIpPgxVa
@@HouseDoctorRay plus Peter has a cool accent. 🤓👍
Great video - and I totally agree that this is the only method you need. The accuracy is more than adequate if you are thorough - and if there is no gap, it's ninety as far as I'm concerned. I have been practicing this method thru my entire career, which dates back to the mid seventies. Never had a problem. The only thing I'd like to ad is that I don't let the pieces rub against the saw blade as I pull back. I prefer to remove them from the sled befor pulling back to keep the freshly sawn edge as pristine as possible. Another thing I might add is that I prefer to use either wood fibre board (i.e. Masonite) or MDF, as the edges tend to be less fuzzy than with plywood or solid wood. Greetings from Sweden. Peter
Thanks and good tip on not pulling it back.
I remember my father making references to not building the space shuttle from time to time. And he & you are exactly right!
Great approach and explanation of the geometry of the two cut method. That 5 cut method is very intimidating for someone who’s not building a space shuttle.
Sometimes I think people get carried away. Wood expands and contracts a lot, saw blades flex depending on the rpms and cutting angle. Most woodworkers don't need 4 decimal point precision.
I’ve used both methods to square up a sled and I 100% agree, the 2 cut method is fine for us mere mortals 👍
Good video
Thanks.
Good idea but I’m not sure that I agree that 90.2 degrees is OK. That’s big enough to leave gaps etc even on relatively small jobs.
True, 90.2 is probably too much for a nice picture frame or jewelry box.
You can get as accurate as the width of your sled. At 12" I couldn't get a 0.0015" Feeler gauge to fit. That means my error has to be less than 0.00075" over 12".
Whatever that works out to be is fine for the work I do.
@@HouseDoctorRay No, it means your error is 0.0014" or less. You assume that not being able to insert a feeler means the gap is half of the feeler, when it only means the the feeler is too thick. still, not enough to worry about, but your statement was inaccurate
Depends on how accurate your woodworking is. And sometimes you get a tolerance stack.
I built a small 13"x 13" sled. Your 2-cut method work perfect and was quick. Thanks.
Thanks Fransisco. Glad it worked for you.
I use this same method for squaring the fence and blade on miter saw. Never thought about this method on table saw. Nicely done 👍
Thank you.
A great no-nonsense approach to ensuring a crosscut sled is accurate! Keep the excellent woodworking tips coming! Thanks!
Thank you, I appreciate the kind words.
There are some great table saw builds on CZcams but this is the best “non bull***t” method that suits me as a novice. Just bought the Microjig kit for the grooves. Glad I came across your channel.
Thanks Paul. Glad you liked it.
My father an old time machinist had showed me something about the same and said it’s wood you’ve got a few thousands of fuzz on your wood. I had forgotten how he had shown me, Thank You!
I built myself a sled for my proxxon FET and I was recommended the 5 cut method and when I was seeing all these formulas I was almost losing my mind. I'm not bad at maths but that seemed overkill. Thanks for this easy demonstration! Take care
Glad you liked it.
2 genius ideas on that sled: The matchfit grooves instead of t-track and the extension for the stop block. As for aligning the fence it simply depends on the degree of accuracy someone needs: for most hobbyist woodworkers your two cut method will work just fine. (So will simply using a square placed against the rip fence and the sled fence, for that matter. ) Others will prefer the 5 cut method. That's the beauty of woodworking: We all have differing needs. No single idea, process, technique, etc., is ever right for everyone and your method will work quite well for many!
Thanks Garrett.
Ray, good to see you lead the break from all that stultifying rocket-science approach to making crosscut sleds. You are quite right; the two-cut method is all that's needed for woodworking. I've used an analogous one-cut method for 25 years for shop-made jigs and to set up new miter saws and to keep them tuned up in hard use. Never had a problem with accuracy, including for the exacting demands of boat joinery.
Thank you. I like to keep it simple.
Great video! Two comments: one, make sure your front fence glue up is dead straight. Clamping the fence assembly to the saw’s table should work. Then, if you have a digital caliper, you can do the two-cut test with one piece. Cut the edge to “square”, then flip over to the other side (keep the same edge on the fence) and cut again. The difference in width at the ends is the same double error.
I like it! Two cuts, half the lumber.
I used the 5 cut method on the last sled I built. I will use the 2 cut method next time. Very nice!
Thanks David.
Can bring it down to 1 cut from Norm Abrams.
Long wide piece & cut in half. Flip right remnant over as you did. 90° would have no gap as per your test
Unless the two long sides aren't exactly parallel.
@@HouseDoctorRay same assumption with your 2 pieces
@@JohnColgan. no he's right, because the cut offs that are being compared were referencing the same edge when it was cut. you're incorporating a variable
Good job, but one caveat: you are assuming that your match grooves are perpendicular to the blade/kerf, which rests upon your assumption that the fence and the blade/kerf are parallel. If they are not parallel, your method won't work -- any method that relies on using the fence without checking it first and that relied on grooves/dados cut relying on that fence can't be relied on.
I'm not using those Matchfit grooves to line anything up. They are just there to hold down small parts.
by flipping the piece you create the opposite angle of the first piece, thats how you work out a bad jointer for glue ups, by flipping the pieces to get matching but opposite angles (89°/91°)
Love your design. Thats my next project.
Thanks Ken. Happy building.
Construction worker here - I measure right angles with my pointer finger and thumb
😂😂
I think I live in a house you built. There isn’t a square corner in the place! No smiley face here.
And cut with a chainsaw, right?
Let me know which houses you built, I'll make sure NOT to buy them.
😂👍🏻
Great design, thanks for the inspiration!
Thanks and thanks for watching.
Great stuff, Ray. Thanks for the video.
Thanks. It works. Good luck!!
Good show Doc!
Thank you Alberto.
This is one of the first things you learn as a carpenter apprentice in little Swissy land. Been using this method since 1976 to setup all my saws. Radial Arm Saw, Mitre-slider and Table saw. I used to hate the f-cking radial arm saws, because as an apprentice it was your job to make sure that they're all square. Got about 15 to 20 cuts out of it and those f-ckers were out by about 1/16th. over 12" wide board. Also hated them because they where f-cking heavy back then, at least 150 lbs.
Guess who had to haul them around ? You guessed rite !!
Never seen a portable Radial Arm Saw, never even saw one in real life. All the ones I've seen were table mounted.
Not sure how long it take to make 3 more cut, or how difficult to divide by 4 then divide by 2, I guess if you don't build octagon or even hexagon, for contractor and rafter square is good even to align there saw, some even use the saw out of box. for hobbyist this may work for them, this might be even good enough for picture frame, some fine woodworker who spend hours to sand a small piece of work always over engineer their work piece and it sucks for them when all the pieces were cut and find gap here and there, thats is frustrating. For me I and gonna spend that extra 3 minutes and divide by 4 instead of 2 and don't want to regret not getting perfect in the first place
Bravo! I’ve been commenting on this in just above every video that talks about it. If you can get a crosscut sled to within a 1/32” , even 1/16” , in the length you’re able to cut on it, that’s good enough for wood. I want to make things, not spend all my time adjusting jigs and things.
One thing I haven’t seen in any video is saying to check the blade alignment with the miter slots before squaring up the sled. That alone could keep you busy for awhile.
Thanks. You're right about aligning the blade. I remember when I first got my saw it took a long time to get it right. Every time I did the final tighten it would pull out of wack. I finally ended up setting it out of parallel then tightened the bolts and it pulled into parallel. Of course not on the first try.
They used to sell offset bushings and shims for cast iron saws just to deal with that. I guess they still sell them but thankfully I haven't had to mess with it since. Even survived a move on a landscaping trailer without needing adjustment.
1/16 is an error that absolutely could cause problems in making cabinets or any number of things. This is a great video tho because it does get a degree of precision that is absolutely adequate for cabinets or most anything else. The takeaway at least for me is not accepting a 1/16 or even a 1/32. You can achieve this simply by following this excellent method. I don’t think he’s saying to accept errors of this amount but that there’s a simpler method than the 5 cut. The point isn’t only that you “you’re able to cut on it.”
@@victoryak86 Yes, accuracy is a good thing and you should try to get it as close as you can. I’ve made a few cabinets in my day, without using a crosscut sled, because they weren’t a thing back then. Off the top of my head the only pieces of a cabinet that could be cut with a sled would be the rails and styles on the cabinets and the doors, depending on their style. But generally they would only be around 2” or so. If your sled is within a 1/16” in it’s cut capacity, which depending on the size of it would be around 10”, then, and I’m not going to do the math, the accuracy in a 2” cut would be 1/5 of 1/16”. That’s pretty small.
Accuracy is great, but you need to check everything and not just rely on the sled. If your blade isn’t square to the miter slots or the fence, that’s going to cause problems too. And if the edges of the piece you’re cutting aren’t perfectly parallel to each other that could throw the crosscut off.
This is a “to each his own” thing. Whatever makes you happy. I just think that when there are a bunch of videos saying you need to do something or you can’t make quality stuff, some freak out and kill themselves trying to adjust tools. Anyway, happy cutting.
Also the sled is one of the main accessories in the shop that you will build jig on it, the error carries on to your jig an it multiplies on to your work piece
Great concept!
Thanks Kevin.
Genius! 😎👍🏼
Thanks
Nice, cheers!
excellent intelligent effort mahalo
Thank you
Excellent.
The extendable fence and 2 cut method are great ideas.
Thank you.
This is a cool old-time trick, and really useful. Thank you for the great video. However, it makes me sad that the youtube algorithm makes it necessary to write "gotcha" titles (I am not faulting you for this at all).
The five-cut method is also excellent, and totally misunderstood. William Ng is a teacher. In that role it's his place to demonstrate what he considers the best methods, and to provide his students with a path to accuracy and excellence. There's nothing wrong with starting at the most precise place possible. In my corner of the woodworking business, there is not such thing as "good enough".
So, I'll continue to use five cut, and I will also add your trick to my collection :-).
I don't like the algorithm games we have to play anymore than the viewers do. The problem is us little guys have less than a second to get noticed by a viewer and maybe get a click, otherwise they're going to Izzy, Stumpy or Steve. Even as someone who does I'm guilty of the same viewer behavior, I normally go to those I've seen before and skip the others. Luckily I've found a few smaller channels that are really good like; Patrick Sullivan, Gakos, and Peter Millard. I appreciate your understanding and comment.
Since you seem very knowledgeable and level headed maybe you could check out my miter saw video. It's basically the same method but it only works on the positive stops. I'm at a loss as to how to adjust the in between miter cuts like 45°.
czcams.com/video/-IZQybYUMiM/video.htmlsi=vRz7Dcy-d94Emzkp
There’s a three cut method that is equally accurate to the five cut method. Have you checked that out?
Haven't heard of this method. Do you have a link to a good video or article?
@@HouseDoctorRay hey man, sure do. It’s Tom Mclaughlan of Epic Woodworking. He’s another fantastic woodworker, has a number of courses along with YT channel. He’s been at it for decades too and is definitely a master in the true sense. He has a number of articles in Fin Woodworking as well. All that said, he’s down to earth and funny and a great teacher as well. I love learning from him but also from guys like yourself and others as that’s how we can all improve. Anyway I’ll add a link for that particular video. Cheers and look forward to delving into your other content.
@victoryak86 Thanks, I'll check him out.
EXCELLENT!
Thank you.
The 2 cut method is equivalent to the way you'll check your squares periodically. So it's good enough.
I'm ready to build a new small sled I designed. I will compare your method to the 5-Cut method to see how much difference I find, if any. I agree the 2-Cut should be accurate enough. After all, it is wood.
Keep in mind they are really both the same test. The 5 cut requires you make 4 cuts, cut a piece off and divide the results by 4. You are just compounding the error then dividing to get back to it. Either way works fine I like the simpler way to get the same result.
this is fine and dandy for small sleds. the 5 cut method was developed to tune large format sliders for precision full sheet cuts. my slider cuts perfect over 10'. no two cut system is going to get you there.
You have a 10' table saw sled?
@@HouseDoctorRay sliding table saw, scmi hydro 3200
the 5 cut method was popularized by the european companies making these saws for calibrating the crosscut fences. its even illustrated in italian in my user manual.
This is a perfect example of why the phrase “ close enough for woodworking “ is just plain ignorant . If the phrase was true there wouldn’t be $10000 sliding table saws. It all depends on how accurate you want to work, how you work and what you are building.You have to be pretty ignorant to think that other people don’t work to higher tolerances. One guy is happy with drawers that rattle in there openings the next guy relies on slides and the next guy wants drawers that close on a cushion of air,and spends days or weeks fitting them. No one has the right to say one is right and one is wrong.
There are flaws in both the way he built the sled and in the way he measured the error. He is assuming the fence is flat( it probably isn’t it should have been glued up in cauls) with his method of cutting 2 boards of similar width he is registering over a small area of the fence. By using the 5 cut method with a rectangular board, you are referencing over a couple areas of the fence. And by measuring the error using the fence as the reference it is very possible the fence is cancelling out some of the error. The 5 cut method measures the results without the fence influencing anything. His method is fine for a lot of woodworkers but a lot of high end woodworkers will find it unacceptable.I once built a crosscut sled using an aluminum t track extrusion assuming it was pretty flat. The slight difference in squareness depending on the length of the part drove me crazy, even though I squared the ends on a shooting board. Again you have to be pretty ignorant to say”close enough for woodworking”
BTW with a big slider I assume you build high end cabinets.
Going right now to see how bad my sled is using this method. I like it because I can visualize it and correct for it. Just a hobbyist, so, not building for NASA.
Zactly!
I cracked up when I seen his mustard glue bot ,I actually use a Siriacha glue bot I got sick of buying them or cleaning them up
Comes out a little fast but that's because it's Great Value mustard.
Check this out.
czcams.com/users/shortscBdclPjxFwk?si=qJ4kFT3TvQPFiXIe
The 2-cut method is much less complicated than the 5-cut, but would you not get the fence just as square by fixing it with 1 screw on the right, then with an accurate set square against the blade?
Yes. The 2 cut method is just a way to verify it's cutting properly.
It's still not as accurate even when you do that. The best way is to actually perform cuts and measure.
It's not easy to set a square accurately against the blade because the teeth are set and may not be set all the same amount. Easier is to set the square against the miter groove (assuming that your blade is aligned with the groove).
@@markanderson2904 That's a good point, although if you have a conventional sled it will cover up the miter grooves, so you can't really do this very well
@@researchandbuild1751 That's a good piont. Maybe could use the fence instead of the groove or in addition to the blade.
Buy these giant speed square, this already 90 degree.
Except for the fact that many of them are not exactly 90 degrees! You mihgt be surprised at how far off some of them are, especially the ones you buy from the big box stores.
Much more understandable than the 5 cut method.
They're both doing the same thing.
With the 5 cut method you just keep rotating the board. This quadruples the error. Then you divide by 4, and use a digital caliper.
I’m confused, where is the 2 cuts? You did way more that 2 cuts.
From start to finish, I counted more than 2 cuts. And that's more clamps than what I have. I'll figure something out with the scrap wood I have.
"I don't want the government knowing I have cash in house" just earned that subscription hahaha
Thanks!
nice video thanks, question since you have screwed the back fence to the sled, how would you correct it (unscrew and keep testing until you get the 2 cut method correct and then screw new holes to hold fence to sled- otherwise screw holes would be too loose wouldnt they?) ps thanks again.
That's why you start with two screws. To adjust take one out and tweak it. Put a new screw next to it. The first screw will be a pivot.
Once you get it square then add more screws.
@@HouseDoctorRay thanks for taking the time , cheers from australia
I estimate all my shit! I call it the "no cut slash rough cut" method😏
Are you a framer or a plumber?
@@HouseDoctorRay Pro DIY'er😆
I like simplicity. But what about us that can't trust the fench on our cheap job site saws?
What type of plywood did you use?
3/4". Doesn't matter what kind as long as it's flat and slides easily.
@@HouseDoctorRay thanks. Baltic birch is so expensive, I was wondering if I could use a less expensive type of plywood.
I used sanded pine. You just have to pick through it to find a good sheet. Sometimes you can find a sheet that isn't full of knots on the back.
You should sand the bottom to 220 and put polyurethane then wax so it slides nicely. I also use spray silicone even though it supposedly can interfere with the finish on your projects. Just wipe it up really well.
I counted more than 2 cuts, just sayin lol.
Cant you just put them on top of eachother and call it the one cut method? :D
Dude! That sounds like a new video. Thanks.
Wow. Duh. Why didn't I think of that?!
That would be a great short cut but how would you decide on which way or how much to correct the angle. I like the two cut. Simple and easy on the brain. If you correct the wrong way then you will know to correct the other direction.
Is dumaflatchy a technical term
Absolutely. Dumaflatchies normally connect to the whoseewhatsits.
Just so long as the overhead kerbangulator shaft doesnt get in the way?
Yes, but it doesn't apply with Pfetzer valves.
4:32 ... oh they know!!!
Unfortunately you are right.
Did anyone else find that the recommended direction to move the left side of the fence is backwards?? If the gap between the boards is at the top, the left side of the fence needs to move backward.
Try it Tim and you'll see your gap gets worse.
To solve puzzles like this, I like to exaggerate the difference in my head. You could even lay a sheet of paper on a table to mock it up. So, let's say the blade side of your left piece had a gap of two inches at the top. Which way would you need to move the left side of the fence to square it? For some reason, tiny gaps somehow mess with your head. But with big ones, the solution is obvious.
@@MjPersonal Good idea! That is exactly what I did. I created an error of 45 degrees with the left side moved forward. This creates a large gap at the front of the board. So to correct it i have to move the left side backward. But, i could be wrong. Maybe i need to use my other Left. LOL
If the gap is on the bottom you have to move the fence "upward". Imagine your left piece is tilted "to the left" a bit, when you cut it, the bottom of the piece will have more taken off. Thus creating a "gap " at the bottom..meaning you have to push the fence forward to correct for that gap..
They was more then2 cuts
To build the sled but not to align the fence.
Why don't you check again with 5 cut method? I believe your fence will stand the test of the 5 cut.
If you analyze the 5 cut it is the same test only cutting 4 times plus your measuring strip. That is why you need to divide the difference by four.
The 2 cut will get the same accuracy. The only way to make either method more accurate is to use a bigger test board.
@@HouseDoctorRay I don't think so, the 5 cuts are for accumulating error.
If it is a perfect 90 degrees, then the cut sample should be the same width at both ends.
This video has a demonstration of cutting out unequal width
czcams.com/video/9Zs0ZjvUtew/video.html&ab_channel=SavvasPapasavva
@@HouseDoctorRay Five cut method is attempting to magnify the error so you can see it easier, that is really the core of it. The 2 cut method works fine if you have a long piece and are good with your eyes (if you can see gaps). Five cut method can be done with shorter pieces since it magnifies the error.
@@HouseDoctorRayWhile the 2 cut method "will get the same accuracy", correctly measuring the "inaccuracy" of the 2 cut is significantly more difficult. The 2 cut is still a great method for many (most?) woodworkers but you can't really compare the accuracy of the 2 methods. It's a case of "good enough for government work" vs. "precise" but GEFGW is all most hobbyist woodworkers are looking for.
@@garrettswoodworx1873what do you expect from someone that says “good enough for woodworking “ obviously not concerned with quality work. Or precision.Just “ good enough”
A concept you are missing regarding the 5-cut method is that the 5-cut method amplifies the alignment 5 times. The 2-cut method amplifies the alignment twice. The 2-cut method is 40% as accurate as the 5-cut method.
Actually the 5 cut method amplifies the error by 4 which is why you divide by 4 at the end.
Error x 4 ÷ 4 = Error x 2 ÷ 2
They're the same, the only difference is how you measure the error.
Using so many tools to make as close to perfect as possible is basically theory. And it may work once. And only for you. Hats off to you. But too many compounding issue is being brought it. As complicated as the 5 cut method seems, it really isn’t and cost way less overall than this “2 cut” method
Too many shadows
Your shop is a little dark for shooting video
I was thinking about getting an LED ring light. What do you think?
I have a few lights on stands but they're too much trouble.
I’m only doing woodworking! All that time and using hard to read feeler gauges. Calipers are much easier. I just don’t see any real justification for not using the 5 cut method when you only need it so few times on this project. Why not eliminate as much error as you can?
A feeler gauge is just as, if not more, accurate than calipers. The two methods are essentially the same. With the 5 cut you quadruple the error then divide by 4. The 2 cut you double the error and divide by two.
The only difference is which steel measuring instrument you put against relatively soft plywood. You do have the option with the 2 cut of not measuring anything and tweaking the fence until you have no gap.
If you feel the need to use the 5 cut that's great. It's not necessary for me and the kind of work I do.