DIRECT VS. INDIRECT STEERING - What Do I Choose?! - Is One Better Than The Other? - Utah Trikes
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- čas přidán 30. 06. 2024
- We get this question a LOT: Should I choose direct or indirect steering? Truth be told, this really is a question of preference. There are advantages and disadvantages to each, but your steering doesn't really affect how your trike handles. Handling has more to do with things that are built into your trike (castor/camber, head tube inclination, etc). Our suggestion to you is to choose the trike and not the steering. Don't let how your handlebars are set up be a total deal breaker.
Here are a few key points:
Indirect Steering is found on more premium trikes like ICE, HP Velo and Azub models, and it tends to provide a smoother ride since your hands are more removed from the wheels. This steering also feels a little more intuitive, but it's lacking in adjustability compared to direct steering models.
Direct Steering is found on on trikes like Sunseeker, KMX and Catrike models and has more adjustability than indirect steer trikes. Riders who prefer direct steering have stated that they like the way they can "feel the road" and they feel like they have a little more control. You will feel vibration from the road a bit more with direct steering, but you will have more places to mount accessories.
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Chapters
0:00 Intro
2:01 What is indirect and direct steering?
4:43 Different handlebar setups
9:42 Ride
10:54 Indirect steering
14:09 Ride
15:02 What if I'm not sure if I want direct or indirect steering?
15:59 Final thoughts
18:27 Ride
19:10 Bloopers
I appreciate the direct, and indirect, nature of your presentation.
Great video!! Put me down as a "yes" vote for more on steering geometry. Fascinating subject! /s/ a Catriking Nerd
That video was fantastic. We loved both personalities! And also very informative.
I own trikes with both styles of steering and much prefer the tracking and steering action of the indirect steering of my Greenspeed Magnum. It is so stable and intuitive compared to the direct steering on the other trikes I own. Your arm mussels are made to push and pull not twist left to right so this is one reason indirect is more controllable and any sudden shock is dampened in the steering which helps you ride more controled and maintain a straight line.
I liked Kait’s presentation, very clear, concise, and well spoken; the guy with the funky beard, slurping coffee, mumbling dude- speak, and dropping tools, not so much. what were they thinking? Use the spokesperson who can relate to the most customers. sorry I couldn’t find myself spending a few grand with a stoned out salesperson trying to make the sale. I like adjustability so I would probably tend toward direct steer.
Totally agree. Keep "Shaggy" as a mech and have Kait do the talking
As always, your vids are very informative and are inching my way to a trike!
My first trike was a Trident Spike with direct steering. Very responsive, would turn on a dime. Unfortunately the disc brakes on it were very grabby, and unless they were perfectly adjusted, a hard stop would make the trike go ballistic. I got thrown to the pavement on several occasions. I attribute this partly to the brakes, partly to the very sensitive steering. My current trike, an ICE Trice TNT, has indirect steering and drum brakes. Hasn’t thrown me once in three years.
Rear brake?
I used to ride road bikes many years ago, but had a crash.
Fractured my L4.
Recently Physical Therapists were telling me my sense of balance was shot, because of the L4 thing.
I thought they were crazy, but they were right.
Three weeks ago, I rented a standard 2 wheel "Cruiser bike". Couldn't ride it 100 yards.
Almost killed myself.
So I now have a Sunseeker Ez Tad. Direct steer, as noted.
The steering is some what intimidating.
Thanks to you two guys for taking some of the mystery out of it.
When I take it out tomorrow, I'll be thinking about what you have said.
Keep the vids coming, please.
My friend- you need a TRIDYNAMIC
Please do a video on the mechanics of steering. You guys (gals) are awesome.
I am trying to my own very of an ebike thing (with 6-8wheels). Videos like this are amazingly helpful.
I have a Catrike Trail with direct steering and my wife has an ICE Adventure with indirect and there are other aspects of the trikes that far outweigh steering type. The Trail is the better handler but that has little or nothing to do with steering type and a lot to do with height and center of gravity. Just get a trike that feels good to you; the Trail felt right to me and the Adventure felt right to my wife. And there you go.
Interesting thank You 🙏
I love the direct steering on my Catrike Dumont. Ergonomics are very important to me and every aspect of the handlebar position can be customized to the rider. I also find the lower position of the hands eliminates stress in shoulders. Great video!
Ackerman Geometry is fascinating. When turning, the two front wheels don't turn at the same angle because the outside wheel when turning is making a bigger arc then the inside wheel. If I'm turning left, the right wheel is arcing around the corner wider then the left wheel.
Fun fact: This effect is why the trike is powered in the rear and not the front. If you powered a front axle that had two wheels you would need a differential similar to a car. If you're powering both front wheels of a trike in a turn the outside wheel travels further than the inside wheel and have to compensate for this to avoid having the tires slip.
And should you ever have 3 wheel drive you would need a dif between the front and rear as well, an all wheel drive trike would also be rather interesting, especially if you could lock out the difs for some serious off road action!!!!.
My first recumbent was one you could swap between direct and indirect. I set it up for direct and left it that way. My current trike is direct only. Direct is definitely more responsive but also twitchy. An adjustable steering damper setup (less than $50) will get rid of the twitchyness and keep all the responsiveness.
Really ???? Never heard of it .. mmm
About to watch... It's funny, it's like you guys knew I was searching for the difference between these 2 things and made a video just for me! Hahah Everything's connected! Now, on with the show!
Very informative and as always you guys keep it from becoming boring. I still haven't decided which trike I want!
Me too I’m stuck 🤔🤔🤔
I have test ridden both...im a indirect steer person. Yes if like to learn more...bring it on
Hi! Nice video, presentation, technic, as usual! Thanks! 😉👍✌
Thank you for the explanation on this subject. I have a Greenspeed with indirect steering and an MR with direct steering. For me, the only negative with direct steering is long hill climbs on high crown roads. A lot more effort needed to stay riding straight. Nicer & easier with indirect steering. I don't ride bicycles anymore. Recumbent trikes are so much better. Cheers from Australia.
Have owned both. Much prefer indirect! Smoother. Tiller sounds interesting.
Your videos are fun to watch. You clarified the Ackerman - centerpoint correction application that I think I was a little unclear about. Thanks!
I guess that even the "joystick steering" is indirect steering. I had the honor of test riding a Hellbent trike that was for sale by a reviewer years ago in Chatsworth, CA. It had joystick steering and it was a little awkward for me at first. My old homebuilt tandem trike had "pivot steering" that seemed to be more intuitive
because one hand goes forward and the other hand goes backward - if that makes any sense. Now I've just got my GS GTO with indirect steering. I think it
has a better turning radius, but that can vary with trike design.
I tested a Cattrike, which had direct steering and literally almost tipped it over in the parking lot going a few miles per hour. Way too twitchy and not intuitive at all. Smaller steering radius on direct steering over indirect. The indirect steering on my Ti Fly has a much better feel in my humble opinion. Going down hill at 34 mph is smooth and easy. I don't "death-grip" on the way down the hill, but keep my hands lightly on the bars to keep the steering true, and let the suspension absorb vibration.
Thanks for another great video.
AWSOME
It's also what I've heard about direct steering. Too sensitive, rough, less stable at high speed and counter intuitive. Indirect are much better.
@@vivalarevolucion9 Indirect is a much better way to go.
@@daveyJ213 indeed
I’ll toss in two cents worth on this discussion. When I made the final move from two wheeled recumbents to trikes i rode nearly everything in your shop. The indirect steering on the ICE felt to me more sporty and “bicycle like”. Road vibration and pedal steer are simply non issues with this system.
The ICE sprint X full suspension, hard shell saddle, 700c rear wheel is simply the mot amazing machine I’ve ever owned/ridden. zoom zoom...
Mark Robinson, you just mention your impression of the ICE/indirect, without contrasting it to another trike with direct steering. This has the result of making your comment pretty much useless to others, except to assert that you like your ICE.
It is also interesting that you feel the indirectly steered ICE feels 'more sporty' and 'more bicycle like', which is just the opposite of what most comparisons of the types conclude. Not saying you are wrong, it just seems rather unlikely.
It does seem that you impression of having less road vibration transmitted to the handles with an indirectly steered trike is in line with what pretty much everyone else also says. But I wonder about your comment about pedal steer.....it does not seem that the way the handle grips are coupled to the front wheels should have any affect on pedal steer.......hmmmm.....I wonder if some people maybe pull back on their hand grips during the pedal stroke, which would presumably couple more directly to the front wheels on a directly steered trike....but then, that would be poor riding technique.....my favorite trike is now a Catrike (direct steer), and I barely touch the hand grips, only the lightest finger tip pressure, and I get no noticeable pedal steer.
Certainly wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been accused of making useless comments. You’re quite correct, the bottom line; i love the aforementioned ICE Sprint X. I rode several AZUB models, Catrike 559, trail, 700, and Dumont. When they pulled down the ICE VTX, i was in. The fit and finish, components, performance was impressive. Mine has the above with the comfort of front and rear suspension and folding feature for travel. YUM. Pedal steer is, as you indicated, is related to technique. The same cannot be said of the amount of road shock transmitted up the handlebars. To each his/her own. Carry on brother.
@@markrobinson891 I support your comments 👍🏻 Thank you SIR
Thank you. Wish I could walk into your shop and test ride a bunch of trikes with different designs.
Yes more video on steering geometry and Ackerman arm setup. Indirect steering is my fav!
You're killin' it with these videos. All worth the effort to produce them! Animations were excellent. Really gets the points across. Lewis! Nice eye contact with the lens! Engaging. Nice little tease on the fly-by shot of the Ti-Fly in the vid. What? Like 2.5 seconds? Can't wait to meet you guys. See y'all Friday.
We're excited to have you in the shop!
Lucky you
Another entertaining and informative video. I agree it's a personal choice, however it's interesting to note the "high end" trikes are built with the indirect and the "middle to lower end" with the direct steering. I would like to know why the manufacturers chose their methods. I have a Catrike, so I enjoy my direct steering and all the additions I can put on the handlebars. Good job!
My wife has a Sunseeker with direct steering. Looking at the comparison it looks as though with direct steering you can turn sharper than with indirect. Is that true?
I tested several trikes before purchasing a couple of years ago and ended up preferring indirect steering over direct. Loved the Cat Trikes, but the steering seemed a little squirrelly. The full suspension model added a floating feeling that made me feel even less confident. I ended up with a Trident Trekker, which has been a good choice for me. I wish you guys had a Virginia branch for me to shop for my next trike. Enjoy your videos.
Yet another fantastic video packed full of invaluable info for the layback rider, Doom mug cameos and sweet B rolls. My only concerning question in deciding between direct and indirect is, which platform is more suitable for tassels. I’ll take your answer off the air.
Thumbs up on your animations and Kate's clarity of speech. I learned a lot quickly. Thanks. Coffee cup of doom. Lol
I have a trike with indirect and one with direct steering. I prefer indirect, seems more comfortable to me and also don't feel the road bumps as much. I do suppose whichever type you have you eventually get use to it.
Which is more Stable - Strength wise ??
Really doesn't matter which variety of steering one chooses. What matters is the ride that pleases you. Don't settle for a trike just because it's available now or the "price is right", the spectre of "buyers remorse" hangs over that decision. You need to ride, you want to ride, and if you have found the trike that fits and is comfortable to you, you will ride!! So.., try all the trikes that you can find, go to bike shops on vacation, check e-bay, other places and dicker for a ride before you buy. You will be satisfied in the long run. Same can be said for regular bikes. Most end up in the garage gathering dust because they weren't comfortable and didn't fit. It's patriotic, we need more bikes on the road - it solves so many of our urban and national problems. Ride safe!!
Most laid back demo ever. If ya kin hold a cuppa joe while working, that’s thee job!
I am new to the Trikeosphere, this was really helpful!
Great Video. Very helpful. Oh and "Indexing Teeth" I believe is a Hirth Coupling.
8:16 Most brake levers and shifters are designed for horizontal handlebars, so it makes sense.
Another great job Kate! May I humbly suggest Utah Trikes mugs? Lewis is styling as always!
Great suggestion! Everyone needs a good mug!
@@UtahTrikesOnline hey I have a great mug it was just shaved
Lewis Always Kool 😎
Yes! More about camber and caster. Toe-in or toe-out. Which is correct? What causes vibration when hands-off riding? More tech stuff please!
2mm toe in. Not sure about the others.
thx very much for your vid, this is the first iv e seen, im going to go look your stuff up
Yes, more exhaustive coverage please! Explain the feel of each while riding the various trikes. In other words, put a mic on those riders! I want feeling feedback from the testers. Also and added question. Please explain toe-in and toe-out and which is better and why!
Thanks for the hearted comment, but are you going to answer my questions in your next video? 😃
I hope so
I wit you Bro 😎. Hell yes - come on UTAH LETS DO IT .
After having trikes that had both types of steering systems. I prefer in-direct to direct! I'd like to see your more in-depth video on Ackerman set up for both types as my trike is in-direct but the wife's trike is direct steering. Thanks for the enjoyable video!👍😁😎
E-quad for the old timers grocery shopping. Room for a big basket behind the seat . Supe up those twin motors with a thousand watt self charging on the way . IE; Generator , Got to add fenders, lights and maybe a sleek bubble body with heater , air , windshield wipers and still classed as a scooter with no lisence required .
Hi, good presentation , thank you for the effort involved. Bye Duncan
I agree with the twitchy statement on the direct steering. One of my local bridges has a very narrow concrete sidewalk with no room for error. Anything over 10mph is risking your life with a 10" curb drop directly into 45mph traffic. I'd consider converting my Dumont to indirect if I can maintain the accuracy.
I like the steering on the Greenspeed Aero the best. I have owned both Catrikes and AZUB and I liked the steering on both.
Good chuckles. Guy with the coffee and his personality is funny.
Here for kate. Great vids!
I have two trikes and one has direct steering and the other one indirect steering. In short, direct steering is more fun because it's more responsive, at the same time this makes it a bit less safe than indirect because you could overturn at high speeds and lose control of the trike. This should happen only if you're really drunk, though.
Well that means, I need A indirect 😭
@@jimmysapien9961 Lol! 😂
Great video!
I had those same checkered Vans back in '83!
I didn't see mention of brake steer difference between the two types of steering systems. If you brake the left wheel only, for example, does the trike pull / stop differently between the two systems?
I prefer indirect steering. For me and my riding style, indirect is more stable at high speed and virtually no pedal steer.
Totally agree. I've had both and in my opinion indirect is an order of magnitude better. With direct steering hitting a twig in the road at 25 mph is very scary since it can send you into the oncoming lane faster than you can react. My experience.
I found this video after doing a few hours of YT surfing, and now I'm reminded I should probably spend some time adjusting the handles on my Greenspeed Magnum (XL iirc) so my hands aren't jammed in to my (thicc) thighs when trying to steer, and spend a half-hour or so on it today around town, even though it's like 6°C (and 96% relative humidity) right now because it's friggen winter. >.>
But first - On to that video about the e-quad and its tiller steering to slake my thirst for knowledge!
Great video 😊
I really look forward to learning more im building one quad with wood and steering is one thing I'm so unsure on
Lots of great info, thanks for that but I have one question. Kate, do you roll on Shabbos?
Hey Kate. When are you guys gonna sell / carry Terratrikes? I'll be ordering a Catrike expedition soon. Might do the hub motor thing if cost is not too outlandish.
Keep these videos coming. Very informative and fun.
Thanks😊
Interesting.., I am 70yrs and seeking an electric quad (Cycle-QMX) or similar. Nobody doing this sort of thing in New Zealand, can't think why because NZ has more oldies per capita than any other country and there are quite a few of us wanting to get about independently, some are resorting to those mobility scooters which I don't like. I have been thinking perhaps I should start a small assembly plant for flat-packs.
Sounds like a Plan - Franchise !!!!!!!!
So indirect steering is smoother like your floating and direct is like you know your on the ground and with both you can turn just as sharp right?
very enlightening; I think direct driving would be more tiring for those less well trained due to the more direct impact on the fists!
Also congratulation to both presenters, the nice bearded guy is the one who knows all the mechanics; congratulations!
I’m getting ready to purchase a trike, and ran across your videos. The intro of the video was excellent; great job explaining the linear plane geometry for the steering. I found it very informational, instructional, and engaging, right up to the point when the video changes to the guy. I don’t know if he’s high, or just a burnout, but whatever it is, he probably isn’t the best representative for your business. He took up way too much time recording himself drinking from his cup and wasting time showing us that the handlebars can be adjusted beneath your legs and rotated outward to the point that they’re rubbing the tires, neither of which was helpful knowledge. Also, building up attention to all the customizations of the trike and then pointing out that there were only two customizations - especially when color isn’t really a customization worthy of pointing out on a $4000+ Trike.
Then he got sidetracked playing with the bearing, and a part even fell on the floor (I hope it was found and reinstalled before the trike went back to the customer) I could’t watch any more of the video. My opinion doesn’t really count, I’m not local to your store and likely won’t be a customer of yours, but I thought I’d point out that, at least for that particular video, maybe you should review it and choose a different spokesperson.
I tried both systems. I like the direct better. I own a 5-5-9 and I'm going to buy a Dumont sometime this summer. I want the full suspension. I am also a big fan of the Bafang electric set up.
Be well and stay safe,
bf
What power level
@@jimmysapien9961
Jimmy,
48 V , 768 Ah, 5 levels of assist, with proper management, I did 78 miles with a little left (very little). Kellogg to Harrison, Id. and back. 5 hours down and 2 3/4 hr back.
Which trike is better . . . 2 wheels in the front or the back? Thanks
Do any trikes utilize a tilting front axle to accommodate sharper turn?
I have only been able to try direct steering catrikes and noticed quite a bit of pedal steer. Several people have commented about lower amount of pedal steer with indirect steering. Is there much of a difference in the pedal steer. I’m a very smooth high cadence rider but the way the catrikes were riding would put me off even attempting to own a trike.
What is most noticeable about the difference in steering options to me is that direct steering is stif and give a large turning radius while indirect is easier to turn ant gives a smaller turning radius.
I have the best of both worlds on my trike since it has a center pivot (al la indirect) and highly adjustable handlebars attached to the spindles (al la direct).
4:38 I think that guy works at my local bike shop too. Also the one up the road. Also the one out in the burbs. Actually, I think every bike shop has one of him.
I've been riding high end upright bikes (but switching to recumbents due to age and injuries) since 1976, and I disagree. The best mechanics at the best bike shops were like artists, maybe a little different - but the best were extremely talented. They work alone all day long in the back of the bakeshops with little to no recognition. Give them a break, and get some counseling for yourself. (From a counseling psychologist...)
@@r.h.rickcarey4037 and that’s where they belong, in the back of the shop, not staring in some video that requires a modicum of selflessness.
I can't weigh in on the discussion.
The only trike I have ridden is the Expedition I own.
I do like the ability to be able to move the handle bars around to get the best feel for me.
I will agree that it can be a bit twitchy but I have gotten used to it. I used to have huge issues with pedal steer but that has also gone away.
Guess I need to find a trike shop in my neck of the woods and try something else out. I still have a Dumont on my shopping list but in a year or two.
Hey Kate, a few months ago you let slip that Utah Trikes was working on a suspension package for a Expedition. How is that going?
Inquiring minds want to know
Lewis, your the best. You make me laugh. Thank you.
They are all Awesome
I've got joystick steering and it took a couple of rides to acclimate myself. I do really like it, but admittedly I've never tried two-handed steering trikes.
Just a question and if your too busy to respond do not worry. I am curious as to the cost of an Ice Adventure HD, rolhoff rear end (high speed), pennine drive in the front, ergo lux seat, rear rack, driver’s seat bags, lighting and computer systems and if you can fit them on 2 batteries and at least a 1000 watt electric motor and I would like it to still fold. You may think me crazy but I am curious, colour to be as vivid an orange that you have. Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
Sweet video
How does having suspension work at all three corners with specific manufacturers and which steering offers the better handling with this set-up??
So with direct steering your steering input is on the wheel posts and the tie rod just makes the two wheels steer together, but with indirect steering your steering input is on a center pivot which the two separate tie rods are attached to. Interesting video.
This is a good video, and good explanation of the facts, but i think most people will chose the indirect steering because, it Allows you to build certen lever or torque converter, by using tie rod lenght, spindle hich lenght, and landlebar lever lenght to tip it in favour of better handeling, and more sensible steering, considdering that the most of the weight on all trikes and my quadricycle is in front, so the weight is pushing down and making more traction.
Im shore that you know that there is more to steering than just ackerman, and kingpin inclanation, consider scrub radius and caster angle, and also try to implement double whishbone suspention, since it is pretty much softer and more reliable, also takes much stress from the frame.
thank you. DO you guys ship overseas ? to ireland ?
Indonesia see full video, im fans recumbent, hehehe loved.
all I can say is Azub Ti Fly awesome, indirect steering need I say more
Can I test drive trikes when the time comes to buy one? No clue what one would feel "right", just need an electric assist, I am partially paralyzed. (Obviously a flight in would be needed.)
Greenspeed trikes have a different indirect setup to these if I'm not mistaken?
Tiller steering on e quad? Please. More information please.
Kait. You are Steering us to make a ''Direct'' or ''Indirect' decision'on which Trike to buy.
Keep on Triking...
Haha! Well said Derek - Kait
I know I don’t know Which to buy now 😭
I wonder about other original simpler steering design for feature incentive of lowering center of gravity next to additional 3rd wheel. I like faster but not raising legs higher elevation. I have a seesaw table for that.
I'm going to have to buy a recumbent trike for medical reasons
Is it possible `to operate a recumbent w/o constantly gripping the steering arms?
How does the fat tired trike handle sand dunes?I do some sand racing.
Really nice mug. Makes me want to play some Doom.
I'm wondering if I can get a round car wheel..is that common or just a "car "?
What about a rear steer with front wheel drive? Is there a reason that you don’t see such a thing. You could use less chain, electric assist and your posit rack dual wheel drive system. Just a thought.
Generally rear steering is very unstable. Go drive a forklift or try driving your car backwards rapidly and you will understand. Rather than tracking where the wheels are going with front wheel steering you are pushing the rear end around to cause the front to change direction.
Indirect.
I have tried direct but found it gets a little twitchy at speed!
That's 45-60mph speed (downhill), I'm not superman or Steve Austin.
And yes I'm old enough to remember 'The Six Million Dollar Man'. ;-)
I get told that I'm old enough to know better! and that I set a bad example for the kids.
Hmph!
I Do, I just don't care! LOL
I have cxs and definitely like the direct steering definitely wouldn't have anything else
You did not offer any negative feedback on the Indirect steering. Unless it's that it doesn't offer the same feeling of direct? Are there any negatives besides what you don't feel from direct steering? Thanks.
I’m lost 😞
Should state "recumbent" trike. Would have been good to see the delta upright manual trike being compared as well with the pros and cons of both.
Between the odd music, and the trippy Mechanic, I had to work at it, to stay the course; but some info got through...thank you.
Hey if you're going to do mugs, please do multiple sizes. Some of us need the large caffeine fix. Also microwave safe. Thanks.
Of Coors
I’ve never seen a trike, other then here on CZcams !! Being paralyze in my lower legs ! I still manage riding a regular bike but I’ve had a few accidents along the way while riding !! Very interested in getting myself a trike !! 250 lbs 6’2” tall what would be good for a old retired man !! I really like your 4 wheel trikes !! For hunting on road & off road
Billy, look at GameCircle as well as trikes.
Prefer tiller steering as it does not interfere with the rider and can be set up in a narrower width. Indirect is next and direct is least favorite. Too bad there are no major manufacturers using tiller steering..
It always hurts the soul when I watch gokart building videos on youtube and other videos that have no thought of guidance at all. No åckerman angle or caster at all, or kpi angle is straight down. This video girl knows more than an ordinary girl;)
Do you have trike trailer hitch carry?
And may I mention the steering dampener. Is it there to make the steering damp? I think you meant damper.
how about a bike like (orange ad3) or (ascendu3x1 ascendu 3x3)
Indirect steering is when there are rumors that someone heard you have to steer.