I'm always surprised the comparison to a destructive cult is not made. Robert J Lifton described in the 60's the 8 tenets of thought reform: control of communication, mystical manipulation, the pursuit of purity, the ideology is sacred, confession of guilt and shame, the idea that some have the right to exist and some don't, etc.
What’s the difference between a cult and a religion? “A cult is bullshit. It was created by one person. That person knows it’s bullshit. In a religion, that dude’s dead.” Joe Rogan.
Who knew, that was SO unexpected. An atheist clearly defining the importance of forgiveness & faith in combating the destructive damage of woke-ism... Terrific discussion!
These conversation brought up to my mind two things. The first is a thought from Chesterton, who, paraphrasing, said that those who cease believing in God will not simply believe "nothing" but "anything". The second is something that occurred to me while talking with an old family friend, i.e. The only alternative to forgiveness is suicide. No way out of one's mistakes puts an unbearable weight on his shoulders.
This is some amazing discussion. I'd just previously watched your video "Woke ideology, the university, and grievance" before clicking on this. Douglas mentioned the foundational text "Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack" during that video. He basically described how surprised he was at the flimsy nature of the arguments within it, especially in light of how much it is cited in the literature... and how much, I daresay, it is viewed as Gospel. So in that way, I find this next discussion asking if Wokeism is a new religion - so apropos, because my immediate thought from the previous video was that it seems like "Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack" runs parallel both in content, reception, and application to many examples of religious scripture. Thank you for having these discussions and providing them to us to view!
I can remember how Wokeism spouted up in a section of the CZcams Atheist demographic, and eventually -- like buckthorn in a berry bush -- it choked out Atheism with "Atheism Plus".
What are you saying with this comment? You can remember how Wokeism spouted in an abstract "CZcams atheist demographic". How do you "remember" that? How were you privy to this occurrence? Are you a member of the demographic itself? Did someone tell you about it? Also what do you mean by it "choked out" Athiesm with Atheism Plus? In what context? To what end? Are you inside of the algorithm looking outwards? I understand the progression from "Atheism" to "Atheism+Wokeism" but the Inside Baseball shit with the algorithm is Sus. This seems like some sort of CZcams version of Russian Trolls on facebook - algorithmic (generic) verbage designed to look passably human. And if you are a real person, dont get all bitchy at this comment either Lol. I wont be back to read it.
The parallels of wokism as religion are both utterly fascinating and deeply troubling. Wonderful conversation about something central and pivotal in western society. I wish the conversation was much longer. Peter - thank you for bringing the two of you together. With as much intellelligence, elegance, and common sense the both of you exude - it give me pause for a hopeful solution to this woke nightmare. More of this please!
Another advantage traditional Christianity (specifically Protestantism) has over this new religion is that your faith, your “rightness with God”, was between yourself and God only. Now, moral rightness has to do with your relationship with oppressed groups, and is judged not by God based on your intentions, but by others based their subjective perceptions
Maybe in Protestantism proper, but in the catholic churches, the church and clergy were mediators of certain necessities of spiritual well-being. Christianity has always been a communal religion. The early church members shared everything alike, looked after one another etc. But I get your broader point. Your soul was always yours and God's and no one else's.
Nope, I've had no end of Protestants lecture me on how I'm going to hell, how I really do believe in a god but just deny it, how I can't be good without a god and therefore I do believe in a god but just want to sin, and how it's selfish of me to not believe in a god, and on and on and on and on... And particularly when I tell people why I don't believe in any of the various gods, I'm told that it's mean or damaging for me to say so as it takes people away from (their) god. Wokeness does exactly the same thing, just with the mythology changed to various isms and bigotries. They're identical, in all but very few ways. What you hate about Wokeness is likely what I despise about your religion. I see the two of you as twins.
Truly FASCINATING clip. I am a believer in the Bible, but I found this video really interesting. And yes, I know that Peter is a very militant atheist. I have listened to one of his most aggressive presentations. However, I would not mind meeting with these to people and having a bit of a chat. Of course we would not agree on several points, but nevertheless I would not be afraid to have a chat with them.
If this woke idiocy ever ends there will be a need to forgive people. But there also will be a need for those people to admit that this was all a sham and there needs to be some sort of acknowledgment of the damage it caused. I have a fear that when this passes people are going to try to just pretend it never happened or that they weren't a part of it. And if that happens we run the risk of repeating the same mistakes. The reason this ideology has taken hold is that so many old socialists and cultural relativists spend their entire life pushing their broken ideology and never admitting its failures. Even in the face of nation after nation collapsing under its weight the academics and scholars just pressed on like that didn't happen and started over with a new generation of people decades later who were too young to have experienced the failures of socialist ideologies. We can't allow that to happen again. After this stuff fails it needs to be taught as a fact in schools. Every kid needs to grow up learning how it almost destroyed the world, just as they would learn about math or science.
Yes and yes. It is an amazing phenomenon. Here is a toxic radioactive ideology that history and even current events proves is dangerous. Yet these people think implementing it will go fine this time. It's such a perplexing part of politics and culture. "Hey, remember that ideology that killed 100 million and makes corporations and the state go broke? Let's try it again."
Well, as a former Leftie of the late Gen X/early Gen Y age who went through some heavy early indoctrination at art school… let me tell you many are getting really sick of it all & less afraid to challenge it everyday.
What you're saying is itself a good way to start the whole thing over again. To have ex-Wokes flailing themselves and washing the feet of the never-Wokes. These people are already predisposed to that kind of thing, so what you're talking about is just as likely to result in Woke 2.0.
@@TagSpamCop l agree and disagree with you. Where do l disagree? I'm a former wokester. So some can change. Where do l agree with you? Everything else you said. It was nearly impossible to change. Took 18 months and lots of exposure to reality. Most woke can NOT be saved. They're inundated with narrative after narrative on a daily basis. And the bigger issue is something that you said. They're predisposed to this ideology. I work in LA, these people see thier foolishness, but still vote for and support it. A grown man exposed himself to a little 6 year old. There was a protest. They protested in support of the man. That kind of stupidity isnt cured easily
To love your enemy and forgive those whom persecute you. That's the only way out of this situation. Otherwise you'll be like the woke. No forgiveness, no redemption.
@@briank3564 Trouble is doing it on a large scale, so that such an easy politiical profit, based on loathing and hate will not serve future grifters. Were it easy to have been achieved, much of our tribalistic past would not have occured. Our future attempts at healing must be based in reality, or We will cause a greater despaire down the road.
Apologies for beginning my comment with "As a....", but here goes, "Christian", one of the most challenging teachings from my Rabbi / Lord Jesus Christ is to love my enemies and to forgive others, lest the Father not forgive me of my sins. Pretty cut and dry, and IMHO it works well. Helps tamp down the hubris, cultivates peace and harmony between individuals, reminds us of our position before God ( or at least with each other if you don't believe in God ).
You don't need a god to be a decent human being. Let me rephrase that: you _shouldn't_ need a god to be a decent human being. The argument from morality is the worst self-condemnation believers ever offer. What is so utterly wrong with you that you can't function any other way than with a celestial overseer?
As a Hellenic, I agree. As such, please allow me to extend an olive branch and state the following: I forgive you Christians for what you did to our Gods and ancestors, and even our temples. Right now, we face a dire threat, my friend. Let us work together for once and try to bring an end to this unholy "wokism" before it kills us all and brings destruction and ruin upon our civilizations.
@@hoplite2405 - Did Christians commit evils against the Greeks or did they just incrementally grow bit by bit to the point of popularity overtaking the Greek gods of old? EX: Paul debating God vs Unknown God in Athens. Please inform me of history where Christians in actuality committed evils ( or perceived evils ). Asking in sincerity, not trolling. I trust you are sincere, thusly thank you for the gesture of forgiveness. As for Woke-ism: We can ally ourselves across political / ethnic / religious lines. When I state to friends that I hear very offensive things stated by a fellow American, for example, my aim is not to shut them up, cancel them, and make their life a living hell. Maybe not be friends with them, but they are Free to Speech. Not for governmental speech police.
When these two guys talk about the concept of redemption, in the case where someone did something actually racist or sexist etc., that's fine, but another part of this wokeness problem is the fact that a lot of the supposed transgressions that get people cancelled are not really transgressions according to the vast majority who are not woke.
That's true, but I think the main thing they're talking about is the whole, vague "systemic" thing that underpins the theology. People are already deemed guilty of things before they've even done anything, and as mentioned, nobody ever even actually needs to be a bigot in any fashion for the intangible "systemic" whatever to still somehow perpetrate those vague bigotries.
Love this conversation, but I'd weak a line Douglas Murray offered. "In woke, you have the hate of the sinner, even if you can't identify or demonstrate the sin."
Forgiving someone who hasn't asked for it, or worse: asked but not been sincere about it, is, unless you're thousands of miles away and expect never to see that person again, effectively the same thing as giving them permission to continue on with their abuse.
@@djohn12041986 more...not only they have "prophets"...but also specific and structured moments and events to celebrate the cult. The weekly mass for the christians...and the "pride month" events for the new cult for example...
"Obedience is not enough. Unless he is suffering, how can you be sure that he is obeying your will and not his own? Power is in inflicting pain and humiliation. Power is in tearing human minds to pieces and putting them together again in new shapes of your own choosing. Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain. The old civilizations claimed that they were founded on love or justice. Ours is founded upon hatred. In our world there will be no emotions except fear, rage, triumph, and self-abasement. Everything else we shall destroy-everything. Already we are breaking down the habits of thought which have survived from before the Revolution. We have cut the links between child and parent, and between man and man, and between man and woman. No one dares trust a wife or a child or a friend any longer. But in the future there will be no wives and no friends. Children will be taken from their mothers at birth, as one takes eggs from a hen. The sex instinct will be eradicated. Procreation will be an annual formality like the renewal of a ration card. We shall abolish the orgasm. Our neurologists are at work upon it now. There will be no loyalty, except loyalty toward the Party. There will be no love, except the love of Big Brother. There will be no laughter, except the laugh of triumph over a defeated enemy. There will be no art, no literature, no science. When we are omnipotent we shall have no more need of science. There will be no distinction between beauty and ugliness. There will be no curiosity, no enjoyment of the process of life. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always-do not forget this, Winston-always there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face-forever." He paused as though he expected Winston to speak. Winston had tried to shrink back into the surface of the bed again. He could not say anything. His heart seemed to be frozen. O'Brien went on: "And remember that it is forever. The face will always be there to be stamped upon. The heretic, the enemy of society, will always be there, so that he can be defeated and humiliated over again. Everything that you have undergone since you have been in our hands-all that will continue, and worse. The espionage, the betrayals, the arrests, the tortures, the executions, the disappearances will never cease. It will be a world of terror as much as a world of triumph. The more the Party is powerful, the less it will be tolerant; the weaker the opposition, the tighter the despotism. Goldstein and his heresies will live forever. Every day, at every moment, they will be defeated, discredited, ridiculed, spat upon-and yet they will always survive. This drama that I have played out with you during seven years will be played out over and over again, generation after generation, always in subtler forms. Always we shall have the heretic here at our mercy, screaming with pain, broken up, contemptible-and in the end utterly penitent, saved from himself, crawling to our feet of his own accord. That is the world that we are preparing, Winston. A world of victory after victory, triumph after triumph after triumph: an endless pressing, pressing, pressing upon the nerve of power. You are beginning, I can see, to realize what that world will be like. But in the end you will do more than understand it. You will accept it, welcome it, become part of it." - George Orwell, 1984
It's all very noble to suggest the race grifters be forgiven, but I don't see how that could occur without first some admission from them of the harm they have done and an apology for it. And I don't see that happening in the foreseeable future, unfortunately.
Oooof, for a very deep thinking agnostic, the question about benevolent Christianity is an excellent one. I responded benevolent Christianity immediately and that is sad.
I have been supportive of religion for a long time now. I am an atheist of the type who never believed and am not able to ever believe in religion. I absolutely think the world is way better with christianity than this microagression nonsense tryingt o assist children in chopping off their dickinsons and bubbarellas.
Religion is one thing to believe in. God is quite another. A religion is a set of rituals. It is why wokeness doesn't need a deity. It simply needs rituals, a set of ideas and commands, and prophecy ts that can be casted aside if they sin. But no deity. The concept of believing in someone higher than ourselves, does more than just humble us. This is why wokeness cant have God. It is all based on pride and arrogance and will not allow itself to be humbled
I have so much respect for my atheist and agnostic friends who think like you. I'm a Christian and believe religion and especially the church, has failed us...miserably. But woke, that's WAY worse. I work in LA and I'm from NYC. I look at the death and destruction that woke ideology has on both places
@@Hjominbonrun my atheist friends know the bible better than anyone l know. They take religion, faith, and a myriad of factors concerning these issue seriously. I believe that's why have the disbelief that they have. Lots of things in this area has failed me, and my friends blow it off. No, you cant tell me 1+1 sometimes doesn't equal 2. That's why l do believe, l do respect people who have faith. But the church as a whole must do better as far as being an institution is concerned. To be honest, mankind needs a bigger standard to look towards. Be it a military person who loves thier unit, a wife who loves her family, we need a shared 'something'. And woke ain't it, identity politics ain't it. I prefer 90s America. I told my niece a person was this gender or sex, she barked at me, "GENDER is not real!!!" Ok, maybe, but why was she so angry? That's my problem with the woke religion
Religions are the only thing that tell you that a god exists at all. An assertion along the lines of "god but not religion" is nonsensical. It's like "gravity yes, physics no."
Saying "I don't believe you when you insist that there is a god" is not fanaticism. It's just you finally getting pushback for _your_ fanaticism. There is no word for people who don't believe in Bigfoot. There is no word for people who don't believe in the Loch Ness Monster. The only reason "atheist" exists at all is you religious nutcases trying to insist that you are the default, when you're not. Atheists were not the fanatics. We were not the ones making unwarranted assertions. Religionists are to the Woke as atheists are to the un/antiWoke. You're a Woke-atheist. Spinning it the other way as you just tried to do is completely not going to work. Atheism is not an ideology or a belief system, just as not-Woke is not an ideology or belief system. It's Woke and [Insert Religion Here] that are ideologies and belief systems. As someone outside the Woke ecosystem, you should really already understand this better.
@@TagSpamCop I'm not making any assertion about the existence of a god or gods. I'm agnostic. My point is non-religious ideologes can breed the exact same unthinking fanaticism and cruelty as religion. This should be obvious to anyone who knows the history of the 20th Century.
Forgiveness, maybe, but not before the whole of the believers have been broken. Maybe religious war, or maybe they’ll do the cult in crisis route. But many will likel do the Jonestown route and we should not interfere with that.
@A U No. I mean real grifters and race baiters like Ibrahim X Kendi and Nicole Hannah-Jones, and most of the academic professors and the anchors at CNN and MSNBC who will never stop spewing their hate to divide us.
People often need some sort of religion. In the past everybody went to church, in the 20th century we got socialism and communism, and nowadays people are woke and believe in the great climat disaster. It all revolves around people being 'sinners'.
The concept of wokeness / cultural Marxism is not new and has happened before in Lenin's USSR and Mao's China. Millions died during the cultural revolution in China and the Bolshevik revolution in Russia. Communism has killed more people than any other ideology on the planet. We absolutely need to turn back to God. I would much rather return to a Christian framework than live in this new woke dystopian reality.
@@randallfowler9348 Communism/Marxism and woke are different things. They share some methodologies and ideas, but are not the same thing and blaming woke for the millions killed under statist (communist or fascist) governments makes no sense. On the other hand, Christians literally burned people alive for heresy.
@@IanGilmore Wokeness is neo-Marxism and Marxist movements yield communist states. They are all interrelated. Making unecessary distinctions between the three is not useful.
@@bri_____ Exactly👍The BLM riots were just harbinger of what's to come if we let this sick, woke ideology fester. It's really concerning how far it's made it's way into our institutions.
This is the classic equivocation fallacy - you're trying to pass off "sin" as "morally wrong." But it's not. Sin is transgression against the commandments of a god. To do so, you must believe in that god. Otherwise, you are a sinner against Allah, and a sinner against the Invisible Pink Unicorn. If you reject that claim because you reject Islam and the Invisible Pink Unicorn, then congratulations, you now understand. In any event, the bible says that picking up sticks on a Saturday is a sin, and so is eating lobster. Slavery is not a sin, nor is stoning to death someone who picks up sticks on a Saturday. Jesus excoriates people for _not_ stoning their disrespectful children to death. "Sin" is not morality. Especially since Christians can get their forgiveness from their intergalactic space grandpa, and at no time do they ever need to lower themselves to seek it from the person they wronged. You're covered by the blood of Jesus, remember? That, in itself, is profoundly immoral. And that immorality is the core belief of Christianity. You have a conscience because humans are an evolved social species. No gods needed. If you need a god to be good, then you're not a good person. The moral argument always works our poorly for the believer - it is astonishing self-condemnation. And it's a baldfaced lie considering you pick and choose the nature of both your god and what it wants. Every single one of you is in command of your god, based on your preferences, desires and pre-existing biases. If you don't like something, you simply declare it "no longer applies!" or "it's a metaphor!" You use your secular, evolved morality to judge your god's wishes, and then pretend that you can't judge for yourself - when you already did, which bootstrapped the entire process. If you believed any of this, you'd do everything the bible tells you to do. But you don't. You absolutely don't - I can be 100% certain of this, since you are not in prison. Without a god, I am immune to "sin." Just as non-believers are immune to possession.
I don't believe in woke-ism or any part thereof, but I believe their rationale for the sins of the father being put into the son, is the idea of "generational trauma" that carried forward onto the grandchildren of slaves. They say why does trauma get carried forward but not the sins. Karma
Which is nonsensical and incoherent. They give each other trauma by not getting over it and by harping on it. There's a concept in many black communities of "the talk." Rather than the talk about sex, it's the talk about how everything is arrayed against you, especially the murderous police. "Generational trauma" migth well exist, but it's passed down as a rite of passage.
People who used to scream WAKE UP and call everyone sheep are now accusing everyone of being too woke without a hint of the irony. How awake/asleep should I be? What's the balance? I've heard folks be accused of being too woke just for believing in and speaking for basic decency. Language has us all trapped in a thousand assumptions.
Being "non woke" is actually very simple...you just have to let others speak their mind, sometimes...and possibly listen...not agree, just listen... (main characteristic of woke culture is cancel culture and repression of any voice that is not conforming to THE MESSAGE...so actual woke ppl are VERY recognizable)
I wonder how long it took these intellectual men to figure this out. I twigged almost immediately to the religious aspects of woke. Blind faith has always been and people are🐑...we need to grow up and stop believing fairy tales. we all die in the dirt
"Institutional racism" is a, formulation that has intrigued me. In the face of it, the phrase seems at best, paradoxical, at worst catch 22 or oxymoronic.
Hi Michael, genuinely interested in how you see this. I believe the term is definitely an invention with ideological purpose; ie propaganda, not a sincere description of the state of society, but I don’t see a logical contradiction inherent in it. Would like to hear how you came to that conclusion.
@@ChuddmasterZero I apologize. I just finished writing what I thought was a pretty good three or four paragraph exposition of my comment: and then when I was about to wrap it up--POOF!! Gone. Disappeared. I'll try to come back at it tomorrow. Have a nice night.
@@ChuddmasterZero Just now tried to post again. Vamoose! Gone! I try not to be a conspiracy theorist but I think a--what's the term? Shadow banner? I don't know, but someone is f--king with my posts. This happened before on fb, and I went off fb for a long time. Then I thought I'd try it again recently. Same sh-t. This happens on facebook also. What do you think? Any advise? If you care to offer any. Otherwise, be well. I do glean from the discussions between Boghossian and Murray. Thanks.
Forgiven i agree.... but it feels like with all the constant bs put out that burning at the stake would be a just payback.... but yes the demonstration of forgiveness is the appropriate response...
Rarely do I disagree with Douglas Murray but I will on this one point. Christianity can be brought back to the masses; especially in USA (where its deeply rooted in our culture). We just needed a reminder for why God is so important and wokeism provided that reminder. Have faith everyone because faith is the entire point. If we reach a critical mass of believers in the old religions and a benevolent God, we would go back to the way things were.
Wokeism is what you get when you punt God out. Both these men know sin exists, either deal with the woke mob and their rules or come to God and He said He's dealt with it. There is no middle option of non participation. I have hope both will see God's compassion soon.
The problem with forgiveness is that even if the woke ghouls deigned to give it to us, they would do so incorrectly. They would assume it was their power to grant. The point of Christian forgiveness is that you offer it because one day you know that you will need to be forgiven yourself. It is a form of moral insurance.
We shouldn't entertain each insane aspect of woke ideology. It's too time consuming & counter productive. What's the old saying about arguing with an idiot? Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Mark Twain
Peter’s contention that ‘Oh well, we need something to believe in, better being stupid Christianity and old gods’ is flawed. He should adopt the position that belief is fundamental and it is a biological necessity - as he too has a telos, like everyone.
Your mistake is thinking that the choice is between a space ghost living in the clouds and postmodern bullcrap. There's an entire universe outside of both of these two idiotic things. We can reject both with no distress or discomfort.
10:47 i greatly disagree, they should be taught a grievous lesson. if they dont once things get better they will go right back to doing what they were doing
Perhaps a little, thogugh ive never heard a wokist condemn someone to an eternity of suffering. I see it more as a license to be mean whilst being sanctimoneous and dim enough to do so with impunity.
Religion: a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance. The first problem is most non theists don't see themselves as practicing religion, faith, rituals etc> The Second problem is the Constitutuion has bad definition of religion as well. "one's views of his relations to his Creator, and to the obligations they impose of reverence for his being and character, and of obedience to his will." They're both problems
Nope,. "I don't have one" is not a religion, just as "I don't have one" is not a make of car, and "off" is not a TV channel. I don't accept faith-based claims, and I don't perform faith-based rituals. That you need to frame everything through your superstitious worldview and make everybody comply with your assumptions doesn't mean that's correct. And you continuing to insist so is something I simply will not accept, as a form of intellectual misconduct.
@@TagSpamCop You perform a faith based ritual everyday. It's called waking up and never questioning gravity. Likewise smart guy, if no one ever used inductive reasoning we would far behind where we are today. It's up to you to take the 'leap of faith forward'. No one is selling you a traditional religion, but it's almost without question you follow your own materialistic one.
It is a crazy situation to find ourselves in, religious fervour is real. Christianity brought us redemption through sympathy, gratitude and forgiveness, that's literally our path out of this.
You guys have a odd conception of who we Christians are. Some normal people you know may actually be what you call benevolent Christians. We don't go around fulminating or calling attention to ourselves.
Sure you do. You wear crosses, you have your giant obnoxious temples, you have your "In God We Trust" on the American money, you have your tax exempt status for your obnoxious churches, you have societal deference to "faith" and "god fearing" as if they were virtues, when they're not. You're so accustomed to having everything about - what is supposed to be a secular - society tailored to your whims, so fully immersed in it, that you can't even see it. But we, who are outside it, see it.
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We can identify all these qualities that make it so, but aren't we assuming that everything hinges on the fact that everyone here needs purpose, or actually gives a fuck outside of the fact that anyone actually cares outside of straight up attention.
@@jakelee8538 Someone once said people who believe in nothing, will believe anything. It's like a void they need to fill - ergo Woke-ism & the tearing down of everything.
Nope. We're observers naming what we see. We're not making it so any more than a doctor is making a newborn a male boy or a female girl. We're observing and recording.
Religion is the sum of those beliefs, practices and prohibitions that pertain to a person's concept of the highest powers of the universe. The religion of the pagans of antiquity encouraged the worship of the universe or specific aspects of it. Monotheism proposed a creator of the universe. Now western society is rapidly returning to the worship of the universe or some aspects of it. People should be free to worship whomever or whatever they prefer to worship but it is as inappropriate for modern pagans to impose their belief system on everyone in society as it was inappropriate for monotheists to impose their belief system on everyone in society. It was as inappropriate for French Revolutionaries to impose the worship of the goddess of Reason on the entire nation in the late eighteenth century as it had been inappropriate for monotheists to employ the Inquisition in western Europe during the several hundred years before that.
I love your candor .. you both seem to be extremely sincere. But you seem to be ready for a big jolt... Christ answers all this bullshit, Logos - Truth , Beauty. It's all there Get with it, baby.
LOL. Truth can be demonstrated. Faith is not knowledge. And it's not a dichotomy between woke bullshit and space grandpa on a throne in the clouds. Your "Christ" _can't_ answer any of this, since you can't demonstrate he existed at all, without leaning on the same book that makes the claim in the first place (circular reasoning). You don't get to pretend to have "truth" or "answers' until you can actually demonstrate the source of that supposed "truth" or "answers." Faith rejects truth, because faith rejects correction. You use faith to decide to believe your thing, and yet every believer everywhere does the same thing. You all claim to know the "truth" and that everyone else has it wrong, and yet none of you can justify that without using more "faith" and none of you can detect which of you is wrong - you just insist you are not based on.... more faith. If you can't tell when you're wrong, you can't claim to be right. And you sure as hell can't claim to have "truth" based on something where "wrong" and "right" are indistinguishable. How about knock off the proselytizing. You people insist that you have a "personal relationship" with your bible characters, and yet you take literally every damn opportunity to try to shove it down people's throats, like a perverted couple trying to coax someone into a three-way. This is, of course, exactly the tactic the Woke use. Your lack of self-awareness is jaw-dropping.
Wokeism is idolatry -- the sanctification of the desires of the flesh in a sublimated form. The books of Moses warn us not to do it. The books of history (Joshua through Chronicles) show us what happens when we do. The books of the prophets tell us it will happen again.
The book of Yoda tells us that fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to the Dark Side, and that one must do or do not, as there is no "try." Why is your book of fables relevant in any way? Any more than mine? Viewing everything through your theology is literally the problem we're currently facing now with the Woke. You pulling the exact same thing with your own old-school superstitions is completely unhelpful. Join us in reality.
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I'm always surprised the comparison to a destructive cult is not made. Robert J Lifton described in the 60's the 8 tenets of thought reform: control of communication, mystical manipulation, the pursuit of purity, the ideology is sacred, confession of guilt and shame, the idea that some have the right to exist and some don't, etc.
Cults are merely religions with a smaller number of adherents. Same category, difference in scale.
What’s the difference between a cult and a religion? “A cult is bullshit. It was created by one person. That person knows it’s bullshit. In a religion, that dude’s dead.” Joe Rogan.
You only get called a "cult" if you aren't a big enough religion.
@@BobWidlefish an overly simplistic interpretation.
@@jxm4201
No it isn't.
I want to hear a ten-hour conversation between these two. So insightful, both of them!
Who knew, that was SO unexpected. An atheist clearly defining the importance of forgiveness & faith in combating the destructive damage of woke-ism... Terrific discussion!
I'm surprised this fantastic content doesn't already have more reach.
CZcams will make sure it has as little reach as possible.
@@clint120 true. Big tech is in on it. They gladly censor any independent thought that doesnt align with "the narrative".
"To be woke is to be reborn" Brilliant!
These conversation brought up to my mind two things.
The first is a thought from Chesterton, who, paraphrasing, said that those who cease believing in God will not simply believe "nothing" but "anything".
The second is something that occurred to me while talking with an old family friend, i.e. The only alternative to forgiveness is suicide. No way out of one's mistakes puts an unbearable weight on his shoulders.
This is some amazing discussion. I'd just previously watched your video "Woke ideology, the university, and grievance" before clicking on this. Douglas mentioned the foundational text "Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack" during that video. He basically described how surprised he was at the flimsy nature of the arguments within it, especially in light of how much it is cited in the literature... and how much, I daresay, it is viewed as Gospel. So in that way, I find this next discussion asking if Wokeism is a new religion - so apropos, because my immediate thought from the previous video was that it seems like "Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack" runs parallel both in content, reception, and application to many examples of religious scripture. Thank you for having these discussions and providing them to us to view!
I don't know about it being a religion, but it's certainly a cult.
Please more content like this! 🙏
I can remember how Wokeism spouted up in a section of the CZcams Atheist demographic, and eventually -- like buckthorn in a berry bush -- it choked out Atheism with "Atheism Plus".
A friend has told me about this. He rejected it but was shocked at how quickly the woke took over many of his atheist friends
You evidently dont know anything about actual "atheism"
What are you saying with this comment? You can remember how Wokeism spouted in an abstract "CZcams atheist demographic". How do you "remember" that? How were you privy to this occurrence? Are you a member of the demographic itself? Did someone tell you about it? Also what do you mean by it "choked out" Athiesm with Atheism Plus? In what context? To what end? Are you inside of the algorithm looking outwards?
I understand the progression from "Atheism" to "Atheism+Wokeism" but the Inside Baseball shit with the algorithm is Sus. This seems like some sort of CZcams version of Russian Trolls on facebook - algorithmic (generic) verbage designed to look passably human.
And if you are a real person, dont get all bitchy at this comment either Lol. I wont be back to read it.
I agree. This started with atheism.
Some people will see it for the sham it is but people dont like admiting they got it wrong
The parallels of wokism as religion are both utterly fascinating and deeply troubling. Wonderful conversation about something central and pivotal in western society. I wish the conversation was much longer. Peter - thank you for bringing the two of you together. With as much intellelligence, elegance, and common sense the both of you exude - it give me pause for a hopeful solution to this woke nightmare. More of this please!
Living in Portland I have barred witness to the woke congregation.
Another advantage traditional Christianity (specifically Protestantism) has over this new religion is that your faith, your “rightness with God”, was between yourself and God only. Now, moral rightness has to do with your relationship with oppressed groups, and is judged not by God based on your intentions, but by others based their subjective perceptions
Maybe in Protestantism proper, but in the catholic churches, the church and clergy were mediators of certain necessities of spiritual well-being. Christianity has always been a communal religion. The early church members shared everything alike, looked after one another etc. But I get your broader point. Your soul was always yours and God's and no one else's.
Nope, I've had no end of Protestants lecture me on how I'm going to hell, how I really do believe in a god but just deny it, how I can't be good without a god and therefore I do believe in a god but just want to sin, and how it's selfish of me to not believe in a god, and on and on and on and on... And particularly when I tell people why I don't believe in any of the various gods, I'm told that it's mean or damaging for me to say so as it takes people away from (their) god. Wokeness does exactly the same thing, just with the mythology changed to various isms and bigotries.
They're identical, in all but very few ways. What you hate about Wokeness is likely what I despise about your religion. I see the two of you as twins.
Truly FASCINATING clip.
I am a believer in the Bible, but I found this video really interesting.
And yes, I know that Peter is a very militant atheist. I have listened to one of his most aggressive presentations.
However, I would not mind meeting with these to people and having a bit of a chat. Of course we would not agree on several points, but nevertheless I would not be afraid to have a chat with them.
"I much prefer the old gods to the new ones."
Hail the Olympians! AHROO!
If this woke idiocy ever ends there will be a need to forgive people. But there also will be a need for those people to admit that this was all a sham and there needs to be some sort of acknowledgment of the damage it caused. I have a fear that when this passes people are going to try to just pretend it never happened or that they weren't a part of it. And if that happens we run the risk of repeating the same mistakes. The reason this ideology has taken hold is that so many old socialists and cultural relativists spend their entire life pushing their broken ideology and never admitting its failures. Even in the face of nation after nation collapsing under its weight the academics and scholars just pressed on like that didn't happen and started over with a new generation of people decades later who were too young to have experienced the failures of socialist ideologies. We can't allow that to happen again. After this stuff fails it needs to be taught as a fact in schools. Every kid needs to grow up learning how it almost destroyed the world, just as they would learn about math or science.
Yes and yes. It is an amazing phenomenon. Here is a toxic radioactive ideology that history and even current events proves is dangerous. Yet these people think implementing it will go fine this time. It's such a perplexing part of politics and culture. "Hey, remember that ideology that killed 100 million and makes corporations and the state go broke? Let's try it again."
Well, as a former Leftie of the late Gen X/early Gen Y age who went through some heavy early indoctrination at art school… let me tell you many are getting really sick of it all & less afraid to challenge it everyday.
What you're saying is itself a good way to start the whole thing over again. To have ex-Wokes flailing themselves and washing the feet of the never-Wokes. These people are already predisposed to that kind of thing, so what you're talking about is just as likely to result in Woke 2.0.
@@TagSpamCop l agree and disagree with you. Where do l disagree? I'm a former wokester. So some can change. Where do l agree with you? Everything else you said. It was nearly impossible to change. Took 18 months and lots of exposure to reality. Most woke can NOT be saved. They're inundated with narrative after narrative on a daily basis. And the bigger issue is something that you said. They're predisposed to this ideology. I work in LA, these people see thier foolishness, but still vote for and support it. A grown man exposed himself to a little 6 year old. There was a protest. They protested in support of the man. That kind of stupidity isnt cured easily
I'm not as optimistic as you about it blowing over. It didn't in the soviet union.
Original sin, priestly class, ever changing definition of perfection once someone achieves perfection…
That last comment by Peter is wise but not easy to do.
This is when loving your enemy comes in.
To love your enemy and forgive those whom persecute you. That's the only way out of this situation. Otherwise you'll be like the woke. No forgiveness, no redemption.
@@briank3564 Trouble is doing it on a large scale, so that such an easy politiical profit, based on loathing and hate will not serve future grifters. Were it easy to have been achieved, much of our tribalistic past would not have occured. Our future attempts at healing must be based in reality, or We will cause a greater despaire down the road.
@@vanessac0382 Yes, I've always struggled with turn the other cheek:)
"Racism" is a word popularized by a New York Jew named Lev Bronstein.
He changed his name to Leon Trotsky.
I am no longer swayed by that word.
Apologies for beginning my comment with "As a....", but here goes, "Christian", one of the most challenging teachings from my Rabbi / Lord Jesus Christ is to love my enemies and to forgive others, lest the Father not forgive me of my sins. Pretty cut and dry, and IMHO it works well. Helps tamp down the hubris, cultivates peace and harmony between individuals, reminds us of our position before God ( or at least with each other if you don't believe in God ).
You don't need a god to be a decent human being.
Let me rephrase that: you _shouldn't_ need a god to be a decent human being. The argument from morality is the worst self-condemnation believers ever offer.
What is so utterly wrong with you that you can't function any other way than with a celestial overseer?
As a Hellenic, I agree.
As such, please allow me to extend an olive branch and state the following: I forgive you Christians for what you did to our Gods and ancestors, and even our temples.
Right now, we face a dire threat, my friend. Let us work together for once and try to bring an end to this unholy "wokism" before it kills us all and brings destruction and ruin upon our civilizations.
@@hoplite2405 - Did Christians commit evils against the Greeks or did they just incrementally grow bit by bit to the point of popularity overtaking the Greek gods of old? EX: Paul debating God vs Unknown God in Athens. Please inform me of history where Christians in actuality committed evils ( or perceived evils ). Asking in sincerity, not trolling. I trust you are sincere, thusly thank you for the gesture of forgiveness.
As for Woke-ism: We can ally ourselves across political / ethnic / religious lines. When I state to friends that I hear very offensive things stated by a fellow American, for example, my aim is not to shut them up, cancel them, and make their life a living hell. Maybe not be friends with them, but they are Free to Speech. Not for governmental speech police.
When these two guys talk about the concept of redemption, in the case where someone did something actually racist or sexist etc., that's fine, but another part of this wokeness problem is the fact that a lot of the supposed transgressions that get people cancelled are not really transgressions according to the vast majority who are not woke.
That's true, but I think the main thing they're talking about is the whole, vague "systemic" thing that underpins the theology. People are already deemed guilty of things before they've even done anything, and as mentioned, nobody ever even actually needs to be a bigot in any fashion for the intangible "systemic" whatever to still somehow perpetrate those vague bigotries.
@@TagSpamCopthat's the other part of it
the ‘f’ word, relieved the tension I feel as a woman by this whole era!
I'd recommend the interview with Calvin Robinson on Triggernometry which is very on point with this and vice versa.
Most of this insane behaviour is nothing but virtue signalling!
The impetus for a benevolent Christianity is conviction. You can not fein belief because you think it’s an optimal situation for social order
Fascinating conversation. Would love to see this thesis expanded.
Like Goldstein in 1984
He was never born so will never die.
Fabulous convo!!!!
Love this conversation, but I'd weak a line Douglas Murray offered. "In woke, you have the hate of the sinner, even if you can't identify or demonstrate the sin."
Fascinating
As Socrates suggested, think for yourselves and question everything especially priestly claims of 'truth'.
Forgiving someone who hasn't asked for it, or worse: asked but not been sincere about it, is, unless you're thousands of miles away and expect never to see that person again, effectively the same thing as giving them permission to continue on with their abuse.
I disagree, there is a clerical class, DiAngelo and Kendi indoctrinated bobbleheads.
Yep...there are actual "prophets" of the new religion...it's starting to become pretty "structured"...
@@dimercamparini Structured for sure, most don’t know what to look for which is why it’s so clever and effective.
@@djohn12041986 more...not only they have "prophets"...but also specific and structured moments and events to celebrate the cult.
The weekly mass for the christians...and the "pride month" events for the new cult for example...
@@dimercamparini I never thought of pride that way, insightful. Makes sense.
"Obedience is not enough. Unless he is suffering, how can you be sure that he is obeying your will and not his own? Power is in inflicting pain and humiliation. Power is in tearing human minds to pieces and putting them together again in new shapes of your own choosing. Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain. The old civilizations claimed that they were founded on love or justice. Ours is founded upon hatred. In our world there will be no emotions except fear, rage, triumph, and self-abasement. Everything else we shall destroy-everything. Already we are breaking down the habits of thought which have survived from before the Revolution. We have cut the links between child and parent, and between man and man, and between man and woman. No one dares trust a wife or a child or a friend any longer. But in the future there will be no wives and no friends. Children will be taken from their mothers at birth, as one takes eggs from a hen. The sex instinct will be eradicated. Procreation will be an annual formality like the renewal of a ration card. We shall abolish the orgasm. Our neurologists are at work upon it now. There will be no loyalty, except loyalty toward the Party. There will be no love, except the love of Big Brother. There will be no laughter, except the laugh of triumph over a defeated enemy. There will be no art, no literature, no science. When we are omnipotent we shall have no more need of science. There will be no distinction between beauty and ugliness. There will be no curiosity, no enjoyment of the process of life. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always-do not forget this, Winston-always there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face-forever."
He paused as though he expected Winston to speak. Winston had tried to shrink back into the surface of the bed again. He could not say anything. His heart seemed to be frozen. O'Brien went on:
"And remember that it is forever. The face will always be there to be stamped upon. The heretic, the enemy of society, will always be there, so that he can be defeated and humiliated over again. Everything that you have undergone since you have been in our hands-all that will continue, and worse. The espionage, the betrayals, the arrests, the tortures, the executions, the disappearances will never cease. It will be a world of terror as much as a world of triumph. The more the Party is powerful, the less it will be tolerant; the weaker the opposition, the tighter the despotism. Goldstein and his heresies will live forever. Every day, at every moment, they will be defeated, discredited, ridiculed, spat upon-and yet they will always survive. This drama that I have played out with you during seven years will be played out over and over again, generation after generation, always in subtler forms. Always we shall have the heretic here at our mercy, screaming with pain, broken up, contemptible-and in the end utterly penitent, saved from himself, crawling to our feet of his own accord. That is the world that we are preparing, Winston. A world of victory after victory, triumph after triumph after triumph: an endless pressing, pressing, pressing upon the nerve of power. You are beginning, I can see, to realize what that world will be like. But in the end you will do more than understand it. You will accept it, welcome it, become part of it."
- George Orwell, 1984
It's all very noble to suggest the race grifters be forgiven, but I don't see how that could occur without first some admission from them of the harm they have done and an apology for it. And I don't see that happening in the foreseeable future, unfortunately.
Woke = to awaken
Yet there is no redemption for being sleep?
How can you ever awaken if you’re condemned for an eternity?
Self defeating.
Oooof, for a very deep thinking agnostic, the question about benevolent Christianity is an excellent one. I responded benevolent Christianity immediately and that is sad.
In a previous time you would repent and admit sin to god seeking absolution. Now people repent to social media looking for absolution from strangers.
It's a religion. The fanatics don't know what they are talking about.
I have been supportive of religion for a long time now.
I am an atheist of the type who never believed and am not able to ever believe in religion.
I absolutely think the world is way better with christianity than this microagression nonsense tryingt o assist children in chopping off their dickinsons and bubbarellas.
Religion is one thing to believe in. God is quite another. A religion is a set of rituals. It is why wokeness doesn't need a deity. It simply needs rituals, a set of ideas and commands, and prophecy ts that can be casted aside if they sin. But no deity. The concept of believing in someone higher than ourselves, does more than just humble us. This is why wokeness cant have God. It is all based on pride and arrogance and will not allow itself to be humbled
I have so much respect for my atheist and agnostic friends who think like you. I'm a Christian and believe religion and especially the church, has failed us...miserably. But woke, that's WAY worse. I work in LA and I'm from NYC. I look at the death and destruction that woke ideology has on both places
@@arand4125 Interesting fact.
I go to church with wife and kids but Im the only one who listens to the sermon.
@@Hjominbonrun my atheist friends know the bible better than anyone l know. They take religion, faith, and a myriad of factors concerning these issue seriously. I believe that's why have the disbelief that they have. Lots of things in this area has failed me, and my friends blow it off. No, you cant tell me 1+1 sometimes doesn't equal 2. That's why l do believe, l do respect people who have faith. But the church as a whole must do better as far as being an institution is concerned.
To be honest, mankind needs a bigger standard to look towards. Be it a military person who loves thier unit, a wife who loves her family, we need a shared 'something'. And woke ain't it, identity politics ain't it. I prefer 90s America. I told my niece a person was this gender or sex, she barked at me, "GENDER is not real!!!" Ok, maybe, but why was she so angry? That's my problem with the woke religion
Religions are the only thing that tell you that a god exists at all. An assertion along the lines of "god but not religion" is nonsensical. It's like "gravity yes, physics no."
ideological wasteland is right
Flagellate not flay. People haven't started flayng themselves yet, well unless you count certain surgeries.
I don't know why Murray is so surprised that a substitute religion has arisen. The 20th Century was full of political and secular fanaticism.
Saying "I don't believe you when you insist that there is a god" is not fanaticism. It's just you finally getting pushback for _your_ fanaticism.
There is no word for people who don't believe in Bigfoot. There is no word for people who don't believe in the Loch Ness Monster. The only reason "atheist" exists at all is you religious nutcases trying to insist that you are the default, when you're not. Atheists were not the fanatics. We were not the ones making unwarranted assertions. Religionists are to the Woke as atheists are to the un/antiWoke. You're a Woke-atheist.
Spinning it the other way as you just tried to do is completely not going to work. Atheism is not an ideology or a belief system, just as not-Woke is not an ideology or belief system. It's Woke and [Insert Religion Here] that are ideologies and belief systems. As someone outside the Woke ecosystem, you should really already understand this better.
@@TagSpamCop I'm not making any assertion about the existence of a god or gods. I'm agnostic. My point is non-religious ideologes can breed the exact same unthinking fanaticism and cruelty as religion. This should be obvious to anyone who knows the history of the 20th Century.
Forgiveness, maybe, but not before the whole of the believers have been broken. Maybe religious war, or maybe they’ll do the cult in crisis route. But many will likel do the Jonestown route and we should not interfere with that.
Follow your bliss.
How easily we should forgive them will depend how far they escalate things before the fever breaks.
Thanks! It's nice to live far away from North America. If you can't stand it over there anymore come to Bangkok and relax a little. ;)
Maybe someday. . . but the airfare is ferocious (and I'm poor). But I think it looks wonderful over there!
Forgiveness might come when we participate in our own genocide. But most likely it will still be all our fault.
I have noticed a parallel between communism and new testament Christianity. They're both very very similar.
No Peter, you can forgive them, but the grifters who got us here must be put down.
?
@A U No. I mean real grifters and race baiters like Ibrahim X Kendi and Nicole Hannah-Jones, and most of the academic professors and the anchors at CNN and MSNBC who will never stop spewing their hate to divide us.
Forgiveness is HARD.
People often need some sort of religion. In the past everybody went to church, in the 20th century we got socialism and communism, and nowadays people are woke and believe in the great climat disaster. It all revolves around people being 'sinners'.
Short answer: Yes
The idea that we're better off under the old religions is a curious one to me - how many people have the woke burned alive, for example.
The concept of wokeness / cultural Marxism is not new and has happened before in Lenin's USSR and Mao's China. Millions died during the cultural revolution in China and the Bolshevik revolution in Russia. Communism has killed more people than any other ideology on the planet. We absolutely need to turn back to God. I would much rather return to a Christian framework than live in this new woke dystopian reality.
@@randallfowler9348 Communism/Marxism and woke are different things. They share some methodologies and ideas, but are not the same thing and blaming woke for the millions killed under statist (communist or fascist) governments makes no sense. On the other hand, Christians literally burned people alive for heresy.
@@IanGilmore Wokeness is neo-Marxism and Marxist movements yield communist states. They are all interrelated. Making unecessary distinctions between the three is not useful.
Well the people murdered during BLM riots come to mind.
@@bri_____ Exactly👍The BLM riots were just harbinger of what's to come if we let this sick, woke ideology fester. It's really concerning how far it's made it's way into our institutions.
Sin ain't imaginary. Your conscious will tell you - unless you have no conscious.
This is the classic equivocation fallacy - you're trying to pass off "sin" as "morally wrong." But it's not. Sin is transgression against the commandments of a god. To do so, you must believe in that god. Otherwise, you are a sinner against Allah, and a sinner against the Invisible Pink Unicorn. If you reject that claim because you reject Islam and the Invisible Pink Unicorn, then congratulations, you now understand.
In any event, the bible says that picking up sticks on a Saturday is a sin, and so is eating lobster. Slavery is not a sin, nor is stoning to death someone who picks up sticks on a Saturday. Jesus excoriates people for _not_ stoning their disrespectful children to death.
"Sin" is not morality. Especially since Christians can get their forgiveness from their intergalactic space grandpa, and at no time do they ever need to lower themselves to seek it from the person they wronged. You're covered by the blood of Jesus, remember? That, in itself, is profoundly immoral. And that immorality is the core belief of Christianity.
You have a conscience because humans are an evolved social species. No gods needed. If you need a god to be good, then you're not a good person. The moral argument always works our poorly for the believer - it is astonishing self-condemnation.
And it's a baldfaced lie considering you pick and choose the nature of both your god and what it wants. Every single one of you is in command of your god, based on your preferences, desires and pre-existing biases. If you don't like something, you simply declare it "no longer applies!" or "it's a metaphor!" You use your secular, evolved morality to judge your god's wishes, and then pretend that you can't judge for yourself - when you already did, which bootstrapped the entire process. If you believed any of this, you'd do everything the bible tells you to do. But you don't. You absolutely don't - I can be 100% certain of this, since you are not in prison.
Without a god, I am immune to "sin." Just as non-believers are immune to possession.
Peter was a little pissed at the end...ha.... Peace!
I strongly disagree
To forgive would be to allow this to happen again, and again......
Yes it is and it’s strange in that it doesn’t have a reward that I can see
I don't believe in woke-ism or any part thereof, but I believe their rationale for the sins of the father being put into the son, is the idea of "generational trauma" that carried forward onto the grandchildren of slaves. They say why does trauma get carried forward but not the sins. Karma
Which is nonsensical and incoherent. They give each other trauma by not getting over it and by harping on it. There's a concept in many black communities of "the talk." Rather than the talk about sex, it's the talk about how everything is arrayed against you, especially the murderous police. "Generational trauma" migth well exist, but it's passed down as a rite of passage.
People who used to scream WAKE UP and call everyone sheep are now accusing everyone of being too woke without a hint of the irony. How awake/asleep should I be? What's the balance? I've heard folks be accused of being too woke just for believing in and speaking for basic decency. Language has us all trapped in a thousand assumptions.
Being "non woke" is actually very simple...you just have to let others speak their mind, sometimes...and possibly listen...not agree, just listen...
(main characteristic of woke culture is cancel culture and repression of any voice that is not conforming to THE MESSAGE...so actual woke ppl are VERY recognizable)
According to Sam Vaknin, narcissism is the new dominant religion.
Or anti-religion
@@user-ju7ze9to4k Exactly.
@9:20 the redemption is easy: just take some HRT, chop off your bits, and put on a dress. You are then part of the "Love is Love" WOKE church.
I wonder how long it took these intellectual men to figure this out. I twigged almost immediately to the religious aspects of woke. Blind faith has always been and people are🐑...we need to grow up and stop believing fairy tales. we all die in the dirt
Yes but by definition science is also.
The kind of “science” we’re seeing today, most definitely.
The education of Peter Bogosian, child of Ditchkins.
"Institutional racism" is a, formulation that has intrigued me. In the face of it, the phrase seems at best, paradoxical, at worst catch 22 or oxymoronic.
Hi Michael, genuinely interested in how you see this. I believe the term is definitely an invention with ideological purpose; ie propaganda, not a sincere description of the state of society, but I don’t see a logical contradiction inherent in it.
Would like to hear how you came to that conclusion.
@@ChuddmasterZero I apologize. I just finished writing what I thought was a pretty good three or four paragraph exposition of my comment: and then when I was about to wrap it up--POOF!! Gone. Disappeared.
I'll try to come back at it tomorrow. Have a nice night.
@@michaelbeasley5783 oh no!! Hah, nevermind, I appreciate the effort. If you get a chance I’d still appreciate it. Thanks very much.
@@ChuddmasterZero Just now tried to post again. Vamoose! Gone! I try not to be a conspiracy theorist but I think a--what's the term? Shadow banner? I don't know, but someone is f--king with my posts. This happened before on fb, and I went off fb for a long time. Then I thought I'd try it again recently. Same sh-t. This happens on facebook also. What do you think? Any advise? If you care to offer any. Otherwise, be well. I do glean from the discussions between Boghossian and Murray. Thanks.
I tried again. And again. Booted out and, I don't know, cancelled? I think I could have contributed to the dialogue. Damn. Sorry. Be well all.
Forgiven i agree.... but it feels like with all the constant bs put out that burning at the stake would be a just payback.... but yes the demonstration of forgiveness is the appropriate response...
Ayn Rand has the solution and predicted all of this.
Rarely do I disagree with Douglas Murray but I will on this one point. Christianity can be brought back to the masses; especially in USA (where its deeply rooted in our culture). We just needed a reminder for why God is so important and wokeism provided that reminder. Have faith everyone because faith is the entire point. If we reach a critical mass of believers in the old religions and a benevolent God, we would go back to the way things were.
Modern science has proved false many of the central claims of Christianity. I’m afraid there is no going back
@@daheikkinen Just watch. God is making a comeback in America and the commies are shaking in their boots.
@@randallfowler9348 Christianity is in decline in America. And Europe is already deeply secular.
Once a person develops critical thinking, you come to a realization that a God is not necessary..
@@juanriojas1926 You think you came from a monkey?
Wokeism is what you get when you punt God out. Both these men know sin exists, either deal with the woke mob and their rules or come to God and He said He's dealt with it. There is no middle option of non participation. I have hope both will see God's compassion soon.
It's more like a cult
The problem with forgiveness is that even if the woke ghouls deigned to give it to us, they would do so incorrectly. They would assume it was their power to grant. The point of Christian forgiveness is that you offer it because one day you know that you will need to be forgiven yourself. It is a form of moral insurance.
religion? no. cult? yes.
We shouldn't entertain each insane aspect of woke ideology. It's too time consuming & counter productive. What's the old saying about arguing with an idiot?
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Mark Twain
"I much prefer the Old Gods to the New ones" 😂 oooh no
Peter’s contention that ‘Oh well, we need something to believe in, better being stupid Christianity and old gods’ is flawed. He should adopt the position that belief is fundamental and it is a biological necessity - as he too has a telos, like everyone.
It certainly seems to be a hard wired psychological tendency, if not need.
Your mistake is thinking that the choice is between a space ghost living in the clouds and postmodern bullcrap. There's an entire universe outside of both of these two idiotic things. We can reject both with no distress or discomfort.
10:47 i greatly disagree, they should be taught a grievous lesson. if they dont once things get better they will go right back to doing what they were doing
[03:16] Quite rightly
Perhaps a little, thogugh ive never heard a wokist condemn someone to an eternity of suffering.
I see it more as a license to be mean whilst being sanctimoneous and dim enough to do so with impunity.
There's NO forgiving in today's society.
So...what if sin is real ?
Does Peter know that Douglas is Christian-Catholic?
Lol
Douglas is an atheist..
Religion: a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.
The first problem is most non theists don't see themselves as practicing religion, faith, rituals etc>
The Second problem is the Constitutuion has bad definition of religion as well.
"one's views of his relations to his Creator, and to the obligations they impose of reverence for his being and character, and of obedience to his will."
They're both problems
Nope,. "I don't have one" is not a religion, just as "I don't have one" is not a make of car, and "off" is not a TV channel.
I don't accept faith-based claims, and I don't perform faith-based rituals.
That you need to frame everything through your superstitious worldview and make everybody comply with your assumptions doesn't mean that's correct. And you continuing to insist so is something I simply will not accept, as a form of intellectual misconduct.
@@TagSpamCop You perform a faith based ritual everyday. It's called waking up and never questioning gravity.
Likewise smart guy, if no one ever used inductive reasoning we would far behind where we are today.
It's up to you to take the 'leap of faith forward'.
No one is selling you a traditional religion, but it's almost without question you follow your own materialistic one.
It is a crazy situation to find ourselves in, religious fervour is real. Christianity brought us redemption through sympathy, gratitude and forgiveness, that's literally our path out of this.
original sin is back
Repent simply means to turned away or turn aside from doing something morally egregious.
Word.
You guys have a odd conception of who we Christians are. Some normal people you know may actually be what you call benevolent Christians. We don't go around fulminating or calling attention to ourselves.
Sure you do. You wear crosses, you have your giant obnoxious temples, you have your "In God We Trust" on the American money, you have your tax exempt status for your obnoxious churches, you have societal deference to "faith" and "god fearing" as if they were virtues, when they're not. You're so accustomed to having everything about - what is supposed to be a secular - society tailored to your whims, so fully immersed in it, that you can't even see it. But we, who are outside it, see it.
John McWhorter is right. It is a religion.
The cancer of postmodernism.....
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As much as I agree with all of this aren't we the ones (the ones calling it religion) helping to make it so?
We can identify all these qualities that make it so, but aren't we assuming that everything hinges on the fact that everyone here needs purpose, or actually gives a fuck outside of the fact that anyone actually cares outside of straight up attention.
@@jakelee8538 Someone once said people who believe in nothing, will believe anything. It's like a void they need to fill - ergo Woke-ism & the tearing down of everything.
not a religion. it is a cult.
Nope. We're observers naming what we see. We're not making it so any more than a doctor is making a newborn a male boy or a female girl. We're observing and recording.
Religion is the sum of those beliefs, practices and prohibitions that pertain to a person's concept of the highest powers of the universe. The religion of the pagans of antiquity encouraged the worship of the universe or specific aspects of it. Monotheism proposed a creator of the universe. Now western society is rapidly returning to the worship of the universe or some aspects of it. People should be free to worship whomever or whatever they prefer to worship but it is as inappropriate for modern pagans to impose their belief system on everyone in society as it was inappropriate for monotheists to impose their belief system on everyone in society. It was as inappropriate for French Revolutionaries to impose the worship of the goddess of Reason on the entire nation in the late eighteenth century as it had been inappropriate for monotheists to employ the Inquisition in western Europe during the several hundred years before that.
Read Catherine Nixie’s ‘the darkening age’, this has all happened before.
Christianity is hypocritical but never benevolent.
I love your candor .. you both seem to be extremely sincere. But you seem to be ready for a big jolt... Christ answers all this bullshit, Logos - Truth , Beauty. It's all there Get with it, baby.
LOL. Truth can be demonstrated. Faith is not knowledge. And it's not a dichotomy between woke bullshit and space grandpa on a throne in the clouds. Your "Christ" _can't_ answer any of this, since you can't demonstrate he existed at all, without leaning on the same book that makes the claim in the first place (circular reasoning). You don't get to pretend to have "truth" or "answers' until you can actually demonstrate the source of that supposed "truth" or "answers." Faith rejects truth, because faith rejects correction. You use faith to decide to believe your thing, and yet every believer everywhere does the same thing. You all claim to know the "truth" and that everyone else has it wrong, and yet none of you can justify that without using more "faith" and none of you can detect which of you is wrong - you just insist you are not based on.... more faith.
If you can't tell when you're wrong, you can't claim to be right. And you sure as hell can't claim to have "truth" based on something where "wrong" and "right" are indistinguishable.
How about knock off the proselytizing. You people insist that you have a "personal relationship" with your bible characters, and yet you take literally every damn opportunity to try to shove it down people's throats, like a perverted couple trying to coax someone into a three-way. This is, of course, exactly the tactic the Woke use. Your lack of self-awareness is jaw-dropping.
Wokeism is idolatry -- the sanctification of the desires of the flesh in a sublimated form. The books of Moses warn us not to do it. The books of history (Joshua through Chronicles) show us what happens when we do. The books of the prophets tell us it will happen again.
The book of Yoda tells us that fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to the Dark Side, and that one must do or do not, as there is no "try."
Why is your book of fables relevant in any way? Any more than mine?
Viewing everything through your theology is literally the problem we're currently facing now with the Woke. You pulling the exact same thing with your own old-school superstitions is completely unhelpful. Join us in reality.
@@TagSpamCop nice. Good one.
Sorry... but I gave up on the IDW and other faux free speech advocates when I found out they wouldn't say a word for Julian Assange. Hypocrites.
IDW?
@@SJM6791 Intellectual Dark Web -- with which Murray has been associated. To be fair, Joe Rogan has defended Assange, to his eternal credit.
@@jayxavier6930- You learn something new everyday. Thank you!
Seems that Charles Manson might have been correct about a b vs w war....though his timing was a little short by 50 years....lol....