Winter Base Layers are Marketing Hype
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- čas přidán 20. 11. 2022
- My opinion on base layer fabrics - based on their molecular/chemical composition and how to build a layering system for winter backpacking and camping. Works for ski touring or any other cold weather activity.
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Eddie Bauer Sandstone Backbone Grid Hoodie Softshell - 16.9 oz / 480 g
Mammut Alugator Light Shovel - 16.6 oz / 475 g
MSR Front Range Pyramid Tent - 28.7 oz / 814 g
Thermarest NeoAir XTherm MAX ground pad - 25.8 oz / 731 g
Marmot Lithium -18C Sleeping bag - 47 oz / 1333 g
MSR Whisperlite International Stove - 13.7 oz / 388 g
MSR Titan 2L Kettle - 6.8 oz / 193 g
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Once sweat is on your skin, it needs to be wiped off or evaporate. Wicking is simply the movement of water thru layers of natural and/or synthetic fabric. Cotton will soak up the moisture but doesn't release it as well as wool or synthetics (polyester, etc.). People who worked outdoors before advent of synthetic fabrics wore heavy wool pants & coats which kept them warm even when wet (& heavy). Compared to today's thinner wool fabrics, synthetic base layers are similarly effective & less expensive.
Living in Atlantic Canada, we're never far from the ocean, river or other water source. Our climate tends to be wet (higher humidity) & temps near 0*C cold go right thru you! When hiking in cold weather, I wear a synthetic base layer, merino mid-layer then fleece outer or down jacket (depending on conditions). A shell is also handy when the wind blows or threat of rain is present. Also depends on if I'm out for the day or overnight; the latter requires more attention to layering, not overheating, getting dry & warm quickly when done for the day. Happy hiking!
In the past year I have become I huge fan of wool. I’ve always done the wool socks, but lately I’ve invested a lot of money in replacing all my base layers and mid layers with wool. To me they seem much warmer and take a lot longer to develop an odor.
Wool definitely performs well in a lot of conditions and the stink factor is a huge benefit. I use it for t shirts in the summer because they do so well on long trips when it comes to odour.
That being said, the number of shirts of I've lost to the dryer that came out almost fitting my 6 year old son is getting a bit frustrating - not to mention expensive.
Hang them up to dry.
@@gerhardbraatz6305 heavy wool fleece or your mid layers should be laid flat to dry to prevent stretching and misshaping. But I think he was referring to items being placed in the dryer on accident. ie; getting mixed in with other clothing accidentally.
The dryer is an accident.
You got that right Donny!
wicking in terms of baselayer means transporting liquid via capillary effect from your skin into the layer to increase surface area, so it evaporates faster. That's about it.
Sadly in winter it just doesnt work, because freezing air kinda negates the evaporation part of baselayer liquid transfer, so i understand your skepticism. In winter only way to manage mosture is to maintain exact level of activity so that your clothes dont overload.
As my primary activity in winter is skitour, for harder stuff (1500m up) i use two shirts, one polypro, other fleece, for uphill and downhill respectively.
For easier rolling skitour where you may do several 500-600m ups and downs only way to stay warm is to go slow and steady, so that moisture transfer still works despite cold.
XC runners cant go slow and steady, so they use super high race suits with a bit of wind resistance properties and nothing else, and they honestly look ridiculous.
Basically what i wear in winter is determined by pulse. close to max pulse aka running? baselayer and beanie, that's all, if you get cold, just run faster. Zone 2? add windstopper. Downhill zone 1? add softshell. Wool is my choice for resorts and assisted freeride only, but i know some people that climbed 8000 wearing nothing but wool all the way from kathmandu, so it's taste i guess.
True. I think that is true for any conditions, nto just winter. If we overwhelm the system with warmth/energy, too must moisture will result and we'll be very sweaty. The difference is on a frosty or just very humid day can be impossible to recover anytime soon, whereas on a nice summer day its easy to recover and dry off.
I wear woolmesh base layers, in fact one on top of another, ( and a single layer longjohn under my trousers when it's cold enough ). My next layer is a mesh-lined jacket by a UK company called Páramo. This has a polyester windproof outer shell. Any other layers go over that, if necessary - another windshirt or an insulated jacket.
My base layers are by a Norwegian company called Devold, and are a finer mesh than the Aclima stuff - more like Brynje's summer mesh layers. Devold make a gridded wool jacket called the Egga, available in hoodie and funnel neck. It's expensive though, so I haven't bought one yet. Still waiting for my size in an end of season sale.
Thanks for sharing! Interesting that there seems to be a lot more options available in Europe and the UK compared to here in Canada and the US. We have almost 6 months of true winter but ultimately the Canadian market is very small for true winter adventuring. I'd love to try them out but they just aren't available to my knowledge.
@KaneDoesOutdoors Wiggy's has fishnet base layers at the cheapest prices for that option. Some good results have been reported by many using that as a base layer even though it looks a bit odd. The logic of the net making larger air pockets seems to make sense though so it seems worth checking out.
This is a fantastic explanation, and reminder about layering, and how to stop and think hard before buying something.
I've always been a fan of merino, back in the days when I was climbing rather than hiking. It was because it kept me warm, but when I was really sweating buckets it also didn't stink after a few days. (to me that's still a huge plus)
Recently I've been reading about wool base layered with polyester on top (same as what you are doing) and I've read that it works better than wool base and wool mid on top.
I've an icebreaker hoodie mid layer which I love, and I use with a RAB downpour shell on top. (down for camp), but I've also been thinking about swapping the merino mid layer for an Alpha Direct hoodie. These are lighter, and work really well when active (and I've the shell to combat wind), and would give me the opportunity to try polyester over wool like you have done.
Have you tried Alpha Direct vs the lightweight grid fleece?
Hi Andrew, I had some Alpha gloves that performed very well. They handled moisture better than any other fleece or windstopper glove. I haven't tried a hoodie yet but I'm planning on it when my current shirt wears out.
@@KaneDoesOutdoors - Unreal, thanks for the tip. I'm definitely going to give it a go, and our local macpac has them on special for under $100 AUD which is a really good price here. (importing stuff gets expensive with postage)
Nothing beats wool. Coming from Norway, dressing for cold climate is something we know. We learn and experiance this from we are todlers. Thin layrs of wool and a outer wind proof. You are good to go.
Does the Norwegian cross country ski team race wearing wool?
@@KaneDoesOutdoors They use thin wool jersyes during training, but in races when it is not so cold, they usualy only have their speedsuites.
Wool mesh correct?
@@Sleepy7666 Yes, wool mesh.
For backpacking on the coldest winter days I use the Brynje Artic. A combo shirt and long Johns of mesh and a thin wool shirt. Pricy but so worth it.
@GubbePaaTur I didn’t realize you were talking about Brynje. I’m going to try it.
Great explanation, agree it’s all just layers. I do similar for running and layer like a quilt as needed. Synthetic stretch inside, wind or soft shell outside, then different weights of grid fleece between as loft. Conduction is the secret killer in the cold.
That would be a good video that I bet you have a good perspective on: the different principles that cause you to get cold.
Thanks for the feedback! Years ago we used to just put clothes on when it was cold - the colder it was the more you put on 😂
Man it’s been years since I’ve though about conductive, convective or radiant heat loss - not sure i have the right perspective on that one!
I run and cross country ski pretty hard on forest service trails. At some point, I just decide that my merino wool base layer is done (like 3 hours or so in) and switch it out for another one. I think my/our usage doesn't really overlap with the use expectations of most outdoor companies.
From an engineering perspective, the idea that wicking away sweat is at all desirable is insane.
1. The body releases sweat to lower body temperature, which occurs through evaporative cooling. If evaporative cooling is ineffective, the body releases more sweat.
2. Wicking places insulating material between the body and the sweat, making evaporative cooling inefficient. Trapping water vapor near the body produces a high humidity environment, which also makes evaporative cooling inefficient.
ineffective cooling--> Excess sweat-->Excess sweat soaks everything-->bad stuff.
From this perspective, the mesh base layer of the 1950s might actually have been the way to go (and I'm seeing a lot of this concept on cycling base layers because they are super equipment oriented people). It allows evaporation to happen, has minimal surface contact with the skin, and keeps whatever the moisture gets condensed on away from your skin. So, this might mean buying cycling clothes O_O.
Fool around with all this inferior stuff as much as you want. By far the best solution is mesh underwear. Several commenters mentioned. Several materials and weights available. When I first used Brynje in 1972, I could only get cotton, and it still worked well. When active you want as good ventilations you can stand.
Nowadays some more breathable soft shell items are available and often good over the base. Some fleece ok.
When I did multi-week glacier trips a few years later, I made up my version of vapour barrier system using a light weight rain suit. Since there is no way to dry any clothes except with body heat, wear the wet stuff under the rain suit and put a fair bit of insulation on top. Consider a somewhat heavier, warmer down jacket and down pants to make this work better. Put socks and gloves to dry on skin on your stomach.
Boots pretty difficult to dry, but vapour barrier socks really help. Put boots in a dry sack in the foot of your sleeping bag overnight so they don’t freeze. Cheers....
Sadly missing the point that a material can be hydrophobic and still wick through it’s geometry. Just like a straw can pick up water through capillary reaction without being absorbent. Also, synthetic materials do need to be hydrophilic to some extent but not absorbent .. the two aren’t contrdictory
For fluid to move you need a differential. Lamp wicks work because of the consumption by the flame. No flame, the material saturates and fluid movement stops. Doesn’t matter what the physical structure of the material is, my back gets saturated with sweat from my pack. What I need is a material that maintains air pockets even when wet to insulate, and doesn’t hold onto water molecules so it can dry out when I slow down and take my pack off. Synthetics and wool do this but it has nothing to do with wicking. It’s evaporation.
I love Eddie Bauer’s grid fleece. They are one of my layers throughout the northeast winters.
Those grid fleeces are amazing aren't they. Just picked up a Japanese brand at a fraction of the price of the major brands. Incredibly warm and breathable. So impressed.
Just get a military surplus waffle.
I like your perspective on this. As I’ve been doing outdoor stuff I’ve often wondered how the magical mythical wicking happens. Marketing has a strong psychological component that is profit-driven. How does a company create a new perceived “need” for a product that is otherwise boring. Very much like laundry and dishwasher soaps. They’re just soap and soap is boring so how we get people to buy more? Change how it’s packaged and promoted with the “revolutionary “ introduction of pods that come in indestructible plastic bins and where each pod is usually wrapped in dissolvable plastic. WTH? There was nothing wrong with powdered detergent that came in a cardboard box.
Thanks for the technical explanation. Very interesting. Buffalo Gear from the U.K. works well without layers. I used in Iceland and on the east coast winter hikes. Smart Wool and Duck Worth wool is great too. Wishing you peace and good fortune. Happy Trails.
i was always wondering why they called it wicking lol it didn't felt like that
love how you explain everything and how it works! cause you need to find a system that works for your body/hiking style
for base layer i prefer synthetic for btm and merino wool for top. you don't sweat as much below, so there's less odour issue
prefer synthetic for the faster drying. merino wool takes forever to dry in winter/moist condition
and i sweat more than normal ppl, so my top is always wet no matter what i do (i even have a backpack that has a huge gap between my back to let it air and dry)
Once you saturate it can't wick anymore - my back is always soaked with sweat.
As far as I can tell, the only thing you're complaining about is the mis-use of the word "wicking." You don't seem to be denying that the newer synthetic fabrics are, in fact, good at keeping us dry: better than cotton, and less expensive than wool. No one really cares what buzzwords the manufacturers use. I think you've used a sensational headline to attract viewers to this video. I'd call that "marketing hype."
I spent the whole video wondering what kind of point this guy was trying to make. Absolutely none. The industry' s use of the term "wick" isn't even incorrect and you can't go comparing moisture management in humans to supplying fuel to a flame just because they use the same term.
I disagree.
Yep….arguing about semantics rather than what actually keeps you dry, warm and comfortable.
I think he instinctively knows there's something wrong with most layering systems, but doesn't really understand what.
The baselayer is very important for moisture management because water that hits this layer will cool the body through evaporative cooling.
There are two extremes-
1. Wicking synthetic layer+hydrophobic box fleece... Wicking fabrics disperse water evenly throughout the fabric, leading to greater surface area for evaporation. Heat transfer and water capacity concerns favor very thin layer for best evaporation. The hydrophobic grid fleece keeps the water from going back to you.
2. Fishnet (preferably hydrophobic polypropylene, but it has minimal skin contact so it doesn't matter.)- Water evaporates off skin. Fishnet keeps it from going back. Minimal skin contact means that things don't get bad even when the fishnets get wet.
Appreciate your explanation. I'm subscribing to see what else you have to say.
I really enjoy his videos. He doesn’t post often, but he seems to have a really good system figured out. I hold his opinion’s very high. He’s not trying to sell anything, he just has experience in the backcountry and is willing to share his knowledge with others.
Welcome aboard! Thanks for the positive feedback!
Thanks Donny, I appreciate that a lot! I would like to post videos more often but mostly make them when I get outside and something interesting (from my point of view) pops into my mind. I've tried making a few videos from home ("5 of this" or "10 best that") and don't end up posting them. They feel contrived.
Trip videos are another story. For example I have a video called ""Unexpected winter camping the high alpine" which is honestly my favourite video. The trip was extremely committing and challenging. I'm glad I made the video to document the trip for myself, but it's more a report than a good story. The video didn't gain much traction which is understandable because it's kind of boring! Those videos are extremely challenging to film and edit. I haven't figured out my "recipe" yet. Work in progress!
Good video. Thanks. You obviously know what you are talking about.
Thanks for the explanation. "Wicking" has never made sense to me. What do you think about mesh / fishnet baselayers (under merino) ?
I think they make a lot of sense but don’t have any experience with them. I’d probably put it under my grid fleece. Merino holds surprising amount of moisture.
I'm doing the research right now ( I love to do research!) about what's the best baselayer to wear in high intensity activities. The mesh / fishnet seems to be the best kept secret according to military guys, alpinists, die hard hikers. And I gotta say... It makes a lot of sense: you don't want your skin to be in contact with a wet material. Mesh takes care of that. I'd go mesh > thin merino wool > insulaton > softshell. Your grid pattern (or waffle) fleece works a bit like the mesh, in the sens that the shape allows for air pockets, thus better sweat management and air insulation. @@KaneDoesOutdoors
I don’t know how it works but my merino base stay soaked longer from sweat and the thin synthetic does not. Might not be wicking but it has similar net effect. Skin layer should be non absorbing perhaps. Breathe and out. ? Dunno
I think you're right - from my experience Merino holds moisture a bit more than synthetic. I can't say this with 100% certainty, but I think a thin merino feels warmer when wet than a thin synthetic. Both dry out well. I've crawled into my sleeping bag many times completely soaked and wake up dry the next morning using merino.
I’m new to hiking so sorry for the noob question but how come hikers wear those down jackets in winter I thought you can’t get down wet?
It’s actually not a noob question. Moisture in your insulation is a big challenge. I see pictures of people out on day hikes and I can tell that their down jacket is soaked. If they were out for multiple days they would be in trouble. Not many people actually do true multiday winter trips.
There’s lots of strategies to keep your main insulation layer as dry as possible: only putting it on when your not too active, vapour barriers etc etc. Hopefully wet stuff doesn’t fall from the sky… if there’s rain in the forecast in the winter I don’t go.
Ultimately insulation performance goes down every day you’re out.
Try Brynje mesh base lawyers.
I actually prefer synthetic to wool... because wool holds on to , I beleive 20-25% more water for the same weight, so if ind it harder to dry... Would you say that's accurate?
That’s probably accurate. Wool definitely hold more moisture and it’s expensive. I use merino t shirts and underwear. Can’t afford anything else and synthetic grid fleece works great.
A normal fleece sweater wicks moisture away just as well.
YES
Finally, someone said it.
Great explanation. Exactly why the big thing of the moment, with large mesh layers going mainstream. Big pockets, very hydrophobic, not much actual material to absorb anything, then with the next layer covering creates air pockets of trapped warm air. Because the moisture is not in contact with the skin, you don't feel wet.
I can see the layering advice in the near future being: large mesh > merino > grid fleece , (whatever weights for the conditions). Then combinations of soft shell/goretex/insulation layer like down/primaloft/etc as appropriate.
Overall, in my mind, evaporation plays to primary role in pushing moisture out. Capillary, is on a secondary level. So long as there is warmth, and thus evaporation to force the transport, plus something to move the moisture to, there is transport.
Within our micro atmosphere, its the clothes capillary action, from the outer layer its the air. If we create too much warmth the whole conveyor belt of moisture is overwhelmed. Which is the issue with misunderstanding materials like gore-tex. If the exterior is too humid (atmosphere) there will be very slow movement of moisture to the air, and thus you might as well be wearing a plastic bag.
Love that! Someone who uses his head for more than marketing storage! Thanks
Hahaha you bet!
As a former military member in the danish army i found that synthetics have no place unless it is polartec alpha.
For wet winter 0-5 degrees celcius i would usually wear wool mesh baselayer and a heavier weight terrywool or alpha fleece on top under my combat shirt this is to bind as much air as possible with having as little fabric touching my skin as possible cause i would never wear a rain jacket so i would get completly soaked.
Never had a problem with merino taking longer to dry than synthetics merino comes in many different weights and the spinning of the yarn also have a huge saying in how fast and well it breathes and dries.
One of the biggest mistakes people are making with merino wool is washing it with regular detergent the enzymes breaks down the wool fibers and overtime you have destroyed your wool clothing.
Good points - Alpha is great but not many products are made with it. Grid style fleece is an ok compromise and is really cheap. Unfortunately mesh baselayers are almost impossible to find in North America but I'd like to try them out. Interesting about detergents with enzymes... it makes sense.
@@KaneDoesOutdoors yes i dont know many making mesh baselayer aclima, devold and brynje is the ones that come to mind.
Snowboarding and winter camping i prefer regular merino baselayers as I find the mesh at least the one from aclima not being the most comfortable next to skin but if i know i will get soaked i would choose mesh over any other.
@@mortentoftdal4117 Yes, brynje is the brand. Unfortunately when a product is so rare it's hard to recommend since most people won't have access to it, even if it performs well. Sometimes you have to go with what is easily available and accessible.
@@KaneDoesOutdoors it is a shame since the mesh layers have are really good at a lot of things. But i can see over the last few years merino really have began hitting the american market so maybe there will be more aviabillity in the us in the next coming years
You know it’s gonna be some half truth nonesense mumbo jumbo BS when their main arguments is prefaced with “just think about it bro.”
Somebody's having a semantics breakdown. Click baity, but funny!😉😄
Something must have set me off on a rant that day 🤣
@@KaneDoesOutdoors 😄👍
first wear on netting on your torso ( as pro cyclists do) and then a baselayer.your body will stay dry
I don't get it. You say base layering is a gimmick, then describe how you layer. You say cotton is warned against, then say you do not use cotton. You describe different materials in detail, saying they differ in structure, which proves that they will act differently when used in clothing. ?
The marketing is a gimmick about how it's supposed to move sweat away from your body and keep you dry. I layer to control the amount insulation/warmth, because obviously you need clothes on in the winter to buffer the outside temp and stay warm. I've used polartec 200 wt fleece and under softshell with no "base layer" and it works very very well, but it needs to be very cold out for that wt of fleece. It's more practical to have multiple layers of thin grid fleece and be able to adjust to the temperature and exertion level. On my last trip all I had was a EB 1/4 zip grid fleece top and my EB grid softshell and a merino T. Works very well and handles hard work down to below -30C. Pants are always grid fleece and softshell, almost any temperature I encounter, with no true "base" as they are typically marketed.
Thanks for the clarification.
I remember hiking 4 days in cotton t-shirt, cotton under ware bottoms, cotton pants, and cotton socks. It was in the mid 40s. I was comfortable.
I remember running 2 hours in -20F at night, light weight polypro top and bottom and hat, lycra shorts, and cotton socks. Ice on my thighs and my beard were the only issues.
Now I hike in a lightweight synthetic base layer in 30-40 degree weather and they soon become wet. And stay wet.
It is hard to dress properly.
100% agree, people have been doing things for a long time and getting by just fine.
I hear where your coming from. I think we are getting lost in the weeds with the word "wick" capillary action. I disagree on a few points from my experience. The weave of the fabrics has alot to do with the "wicking proccess" proper materials will absorb small amounts of mousture as your body heat pushes it through the fabric to the next layer... I have personally fell into creaks and been soaked head to toe. In this situation of you dont have those layers that "wick" your f$cked. I put on my pack and my puffy and started hiking. The base starts to dry as your mid layer "wicks" the moisture from your base layer.
2 types of insulation.. static (down)and active (fleece, Wool).
Also we forget wool has antimicrobial properties as well . The base layes job is also order managemet ....
Thanks for commenting - all good points.
I punched through ice on this trip czcams.com/video/SiwOfRkrFxA/video.html and got soaked. Really long video .... :(
The modern fabrics work definitely work and I'm a huge fan of grid fleece which perform because of the material properties and weave structure. Those air pockets are very effective. Remember the old Lifa base layers? No structure and they were unpleasant. Sure they dried faster than cotton, but I still felt cold wearing them.
My main gripe is the marketing, it really is made up BS. Is my back of the envelope hypothesis 100% correct? Maybe not, but I did work in cellulose research for 10 years so I have a bit of an understanding on that topic.
@@KaneDoesOutdoors Right on man, I'll check it out🤙
meh. Can't agree with this perspective. Couldn't get past 5:41
You’re allowed to disagree 😉
Dude, no one needs all the science and the breakdown about cellulose and blah blah blah
🤷♂️
Dude, your comment is way more useless than the way you perceive the information.
False, I loved it! I was basically planning on clicking off when there was no b-roll, but I got sucked into the science of it.
Actually true fleece is made of wool