Did the Squaresoft Enix Merger Kill Final Fantasy?
Vložit
- čas přidán 14. 02. 2024
- In today's episode we look at the history of the Square Enix merger of 2003 that absorbed the renowned JRPG developer Squaresoft, and forever changed the trajectory of their flagship titles, Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest.
Here we look at some of the notable personnel past and present and the respective impacts they had on the Final Fantasy anthology and the direction of Square Enix as a business. Individuals such as Hironobu Sakaguchi, Yoshinori Kitase, Hisashi Suzuki, Yoichi Wada, and most recently president Takashi Kiryu who has recently taken leadership of Square, have each shaped the fortunes of Final Fantasy through their leadership style and creative direction. We also look at the comparatively different business models of the former companies Enix, which as a publisher primarily acquired IP rights and shopped development, and Squaresoft which was an in-house developer creating their own JRPG IPs, and how these collided in 2003 to create quite a weird hybrid company; and one that has consistently sought to break into the western market by buying up properties such as Eidos interactive (including Crystal Dynamics), and their IPs such as Tomb Raider, Hitman, Legacy of Kain, and Deus Ex. And also the weird approach to bespoke games development such as building homegrown engines like Crystal Tools and Luminous Engine... finally we consider what impact this has had on subsequent Final Fantasy games from their earliest releases together; Final Fantasy XII and Final Fantasy XIII, up to the present day with Final Fantasy VII Remake and Final Fantasy VII Rebirth.
-- A huge thank you to my Patrons who are supporting these Game Discourses:
- M!
- Eastern Fox
- Nesadi
- Leo L
- Durian A'l
You can become a Patron here:
/ gamediscourses
OR
Show your appreciation with a Coffee:
ko-fi.com/gamediscourses
If you enjoy Final Fantasy you might enjoy some other episodes I have on the channel.
Thanks for watching! If you enjoyed these game discourses, please consider joining the channel.
- Alleyway Jack
#FinalFantasy #squaresoft #squareenix - Hry
![7 Spells That Ended Up Being Almost Completely Useless [Commenter Edition]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/IjXuU0X8zsM/mqdefault.jpg)
Thanks for watching 💙 If you enjoyed the episode please consider subscribing to support the channel. If you'd like to support the channel further you can do so here:
- Patreon: www.patreon.com/gamediscourses
- Ko-Fi: ko-fi.com/gamediscourses
i remember going to see FF spirits within in theatres with my brother and we left not even half way in. Idk what they were thinking putting the Final Fantasy brand on that
That was before the merger… in fact it delayed the merger lol
IKR, if they wanted to dare do something like that it should have been with video games, not movies.
I went to see Ghost of Mars… then me and my cousins snuck in to spirits with in. With out paying!!
M. Night's Avatar?
I think Forspoken was also built on the Luminous Engine.
Aye Forspoken is the main Luminous engine product, but also FFXIV simultaneously is working on their inhouse version of Luminous too.
FFXIV swapped to Luminous (from Crystal tools) after 1.0, and developed it somewhat parallely with FFXV, but branched it out for their needs, while the FFXV teams engine went on to be worked on in Luminous productions (Forspoken, and is now shut down).
just recently started a ff7 remake playthru for the 1st time and i gotta say im having so much fun and enjoyment, i really liked what they did with the production design and music as always is top notch..and also its a nostalgia hit for me as i 100% the original back in the day....nice vid my dude!
Bro fair warning they took the midgar section which is only 5 hours long and bloated it into a 40 hour game….. and they messed up the pacing really bad. But I enjoyed the music visuals and nostalgia and battle system very much
i had a feeling based on what they put out beforehand to show what the battle system was like that it would be midgar only so i was not disappointed at all.i really like the expanded midgar in part 1@@-solidsnake-
as far as the pacing goes i dont get how anyone can say they messed up the pacing of the game. i think what we got was well done in my opinion.
@@-solidsnake- i gotta just completely disagree. For the first time, Midgar feels like an actual place, with actual people, and actual life. And the stuff they added, minus the extra sewers part, was fantastic world building that really built up characters.
Nope you guys are objectively wrong, they really messed up, they took 5 hours of a perfect game and added 35 hours of boring puzzles and dungeons, minigames like popping balloons and finding cats, the guy on the motorcycle, etc. horrible decision on their part to deviate so much from the original
Being part of the old guard I can still appreciate some of the new things that they are trying out, things like FF7 Remake and FF14 have their own distinct flavor. there are still people showing the love at the company, but it also feels like they are at odds with the business practices at play
For the series I've moved over to Persona 3-5, Yakuza Like a Dragon, and a few indies for that more traditional RPG flavor. Something I don't get anymore from games like 16 that were more action focused and had limited party interaction. THIS IS NOT ME SAYING IT'S BAD, just that it doesn't scratch that same itch. I respect that some people got a lot out of it, even if it didn't for me
Unfortunately I can't say that I'm excited for everything that comes out of it like in the Squaresoft days, but that is also probably a good thing. Nobody should ever get too attached to a company or a franchise. Though I wish them the best and look forward to a few gems that come out every once and a while, even if I have to sort though more games in their catalogue to find them these days
FFXVI was built on a modified luminous Engine which is the same as the XIV engine as thats what the team (Creative Buisness Unit 3) was used to using. so tehcinally all Numbered Mainline games have been made on in studio engines. FFVIIR is Unreal Engine 4 and is a Mainline game however. so we are seeing a change. I would be very keen to see the continuation and modifaction of the adapted Lumious engine however as it seems they've finally got an engine that works and is stable which can produce modern AAA graphics.
*Edited to Unreal Engine 4 as I said unity*
FF7R is UE4
7R looks amazing anyway so I don't complain.
@Twi3d15 FF7R uses Unreal Engine 4
@@arvinjay336 Corrected now thank you!
@@Twi3d15 small reply as well since Square is using UE or that modified luminous cant wait for what they make next and it doesn't always have to be UE graphics 👌
Final Fantasy 10 was the last one I loved. 12 wasn't a bad game, but it just didn't have the same feeling. Anything else which has come out since 10 has given me a very negative feeling.
10 is kind of like the Resident Evil 4 of Final Fantasy. Really made a lot of changes which completely changed things, but still an amazing game, and yet followed by things which don't have soul.
When I played 10-2 as a kid when it came out, I was absolutely heartbroken.
If you think 12, 14 or 16 didn’t have souls then I really don’t know what the hell to tell you.
Edit: I’ll even throw in 13 and 15. Those games are flawed as fuck, but they’re not soulless. That’s just an unduly harsh assessment.
10 is the last truly great masterpiece, but not the last good game. 12, 13 trilogy, 15 and 16 were good but flawed in different ways.
yup. It's like the golden age of the Simpsons. FF is now crap but we will always have the 90s
@SaberRexZealot x was amazing atm but I dont think its as replayable as kingdom hearts.
@StewNWT "FF is now crap" lol my ass
No, it wasn't the merger that caused the major shift in the franchise. It was Hironobu Sakaguchi leaving Square, whether voluntarily or being forced, that caused the series to lose its way. Even if he wasn't the lead on all the games, he was still the guiding hand on the series. He was the person everyone else would go to for advice and consultation.
Yes, Spirits Within was his baby and it sucked and cost the company a ton of money. No one can deny that. But the wisdom he provided to the development teams was invaluable.
I think that, had Spirits Within never existed, Sakaguchi would have stayed with Square and Final Fantasy wouldn't have taken such a detour into the mediocre zone.
True, they probably would have been better off without The Spirits Within. I'm in the minority that really likes that movie so I both appreciate and lament his sacrifice ha.
@@buddhablue21 I don't think it works as a Final Fantasy story. Maybe it could have been decent with some script reworks in a longer-form narrative like a movie trilogy or miniseries. Maybe it could have been decent as a 50 hour game.
I think they just crammed too much into one movie and didn't really do a good job setting up the world, characters and plot. And I reiterate that the story, in no form, works as a FF story.
Sakaguchi was actually the one who told Nomura back in the day to not just make a simple plot.
spirits within was ok at best it lost them a lot of money and i can see why?@@buddhablue21
@@arvinjay336 also, many of the things people praise in FF7 came from nomura. as he was the one behind alot of the direction of the game. also, parasite eve was supposed to be FF7 instead.
FF7R and FF16 really brought me back to the franchise. If rebirth is even just a fraction of what i expect it to be, i think square would regain the momentum it lost with its previous games.
I still enjoyed 15 as well. While the story felt flat it was still serviceable. However exploring the sci fi California Europe looking world was so much fun; as were the boss fights. i remember entering the Venice looking world on a speed boat, and than afterwards fighting the flying Leviathian monster, and it was so much fun
I can say that without the internal turmoil at square in the late 90s, there would be no Xenosaga or Xenoblade for that matter.
Some of Tetsuya Takahashi's best work for sure
@@AlleywayJack Will you ever do videos on xenoblade and its connected games? Not trying to pressure or anything it would just be really cool
xenogears is half of the best JRPG ever made, mixed with half of the worst JRPG ever made. and while xenoblade is a proper franchise deserving being played by any fan of the genre, xenosaga was mediocrity at best. being basically a playable version of the resident evil movies.
I never consider the merger to be that moment, because by then I had felt "that moment" so many times as a life long fan of the series. The jump to the PS1 era was a pretty large shift in ideal and tone, and you feel that build up to that in each subsequent release of the game... the themes were going deeper every time, they were always reaching for higher heights, but something always got left behind from a previous version. There is something from just about every Final Fantasy I can point out it does the best, and an aspect of what made it great didn't stand the test of time. In many ways the series has always felt like a struggle, it's constantly been tinkering with the formula from day 1.
To me, the trouble with the main line didn't start until 13. Every version before that, 11 included, felt like it had it's place to me within it's time and genre, but 13 was the first pure quality drop, and I think we can blame the dev cycle and it's many issues. The same goes for the original 14 and 15... each one had a difficult dev cycle that cost it. 16 was the first return to form in awhile... but it also gave me the immediate reaction to want to play 12, because 12 did somethings better.
I remember purchasing Dragon Quest VIII specifically because it was bundled with the demo for Final Fantasy XII. It only took a few minutes of playing the demo to realize that the FF series was headed downhill. Never did I expect DQ8 to be leaps and bounds better than the final product.
I don't have a ps5 but I'm hoping to have one soon so I can play FF7 rebirth and 16. I'm more excited for Final Fantasy's future than I have been in years. Great video as always! I've been watching for years and you always have insightful commentary!
If you’re older than 30, yes. If you’re younger, no. I really think it’s that simple lol
Why is that?
@@Hoffanheim Different expectations. Under 30s probably got into games after they had voice acting, so they don't really have the experience of growing up with something like FF7,8,9, Tactics and even trying to play old games it just doesn't hit them the same way. The games had just changed too much before they had their formative experiences.
Never thought of it like this,it so true though.
I’m over 30 and agree 100% with your comment. I didn’t play X and up, because it’s just very different to what I enjoy. X I might give a try though!
@@Gagne87Fixxer As a 34 year old who got into FF with 8, and who despises the newer games, X is great. It's the Resident Evil 4 of Final Fantasy. Very different from the proceeding games, but the last of the great games for that series. Just pretend X-2 never happened, though.
X, like 7, 8, and 9, has likeable characters who are all kind of working together for the same goal, and I think that's the main thing they got wrong in the later games. I can really get invested in the story because I can identify with what the characters are going through. The later games are just things happening and people doing stuff, if that makes sense. All flash and no substance.
Edit: Tidus is kind of a brat at first, but he matures about 1/3 of the way through the game when he starts to understand the other party members.
Short answer is no it didn't.
After FF16 and FF7R I can definitely tell they're on the right track again. I was so freakin impressed with 16's writing after the massive floppy 15 mess.
While I beat and enjoyed both, I do feel like XVI started to decline after a certain character died. It was still quite good overall, but the latter bits of the game just weren't as solid as the first half or 2/3.
The compilation has turned FFVII into a shonen anime. I like it. It's fun. But it's also as embarrassing as a shonen anime at times--if someone not into anime walked in on it, it could feel a bit awkward. 3D Final Fantasy games took inspiration from anime, but FFVIIR feels like an anime. Or like Advent Children, but uhh....good.
I miss the old feeling of Final Fantasy. I feel like Sakaguchi's departure forever took away part of that spark in the series. Not even saying he had to work much on the game for it to have that spark, just that ever since he left I feel Nojima, Nomura, and Kitase have slowly taken free reign and dropped so much feeling of the original vision for the series.
@@Y-two-K Can you expand on this a little? The vibe I think you're talking about is probably exemplified in FF6 Yes? That sort of mystical, Ursula K Leguin alien vibes, not the Cameron alien vibes that FFXVI gives for example?
@@jasondeutschbein8102 It's hard for me to put it into words, to be honest. It might be exemplified in FFVI, but I'm not really sure because FFVI has never really been in my top 3 so I'm less familiar with it.
I would describe it as this sort of earnestness--wearing its heart on its sleeve. Modern FF games just feel too over-the-top and "cool", not as vulnerable and willing to be as "dorky" at times as the old games.
@@jasondeutschbein8102 There is an interview where one of the staff members spoke about the original Final Fantasy 7 script.
Back then, many people on the team would add things to the script on the fly. E.g "oh I think Barret should say this line instead."
I can't remember why, but they stopped doing that. Now the scripts are finalised, and that's that.
That would definitely take away from the soul of the game. Many games are having issues where it characters just feel lifeless, even though the writing is still decent.
@@PistolPattt I'm all for fluidity, but design documents exist for a reason. There's a lot of issues with development length that could have been solved the last decade or so if they just planned what to prioritize in development.
Unfortunately, many companies have dropped writing as a priority because "people just want the action".
The thing is, the writing is a tool to help prioritize development goals.
I don’t think it was the merger itself, but THAT movie, which signalled the beginning of the end, and Square pushing more to a corporate position(Sakaguchi for example, never wanted sequels, but then came 10-2 with lots of reused assets shortly after the film bombing). Enix still has Dragon Quest, and I don’t see that series being drastically altered to chase big numbers
The Dragon Quest trajectory compared to FF is definitely strange. I played Dragon Quest XI lately and I struggled to distinguish it from Dragon Quest VIII which literally came out 20 years ago. It may relate to Dragon Quest being huge in Japan compared to in western markets and Square feeling it's safe without too much innovation... like COD games here lol; while Final Fantasy has always had the big breakthrough in the west so that's the one they're changing to what they deem favourable western design trends? Not sure.
On the sequel FF10-2 not so. It was the game's writer Kazushige Nojima, who didn't like the idea at first until he saw fan reaction afer the release of a video about Yuna's life after the Eternal Calm as Squaresoft releaased Final Fantasy X International edition. Nojima changed his mind after that. You can read abut it in the article "Siliconera Final Fantasy X Writer Shares His Thoughts And Memories Of The Series by SATO Jan 8, 2014". The only thing from what I see the staff didn't like was the "X-2" in the title but had to accept it because they cannot have the mainline title.
I thought Forspoken was on an upgraded Luminos engine. Is that incorrect?
Great job on the video.
Nope you're correct, Forspoken is also on luminous 👍
Yup, but that's because the same team worked on the title.
And FFXVI was made on an edited version of FFXIV's engine too. (Crystal Tools, I think?)
"Does FFXIV still use Crystal Tools?
In any case FFXIV isn't Luminous Engine nor Crystal Tools, it's an unnamed custom engine used for both FF14 and FF16 and they're extending the capabilities of it to support DirectX 12.
It's maybe gonna be named Radec Engine as the trademark indicates."
twitter.com/Dreamboum/status/1586505812071047169
Is Forspoken not not build on the Luminous engine?
Very incisive - when you think that FFIV which is my favourite game of all time was made with only 13 people and now the total mess that SquareEnix is in and the messy way they operate they are such a radically different company
too many cooks in the kitchen
@@phillystevesteak6982 esp if one of those cooks is Tetsuya Nomura. too many zippers
@@StewNWT you do realize he is the main reason the original ff7 story is as good as it is, right? because originally, sakaguchi wanted to make parasite eve(which i love), as ff7. then, he wanted to make it an even bigger melodrama than 2(which i also defend deserves a proper remake, that would be able to bring those moments the right weight they deserve, while also fixing the borked mechanics).
@@marcosdheleno you know that's completely false right?
@@StewNWT seriously, look it up.
it didnt kill FF but it killed everything else.
True but 12 was a masterpiece in storytelling. 14 is a beast. 13 is totally underrated. And 15 is phenomenal as far as gameplay is concerned. So as a vet ( played them all quite literally) it's not as impactful. I.E. of ff7 compared to the remake. Remake is so cool but the story is meh. Og ff7 gameplay is meh but story is 35 out of ten . So it really just depends. Cant knock one thing because you in particular dont like the other . Stranger of paradise is another example. I absolutely loved this game . Kinda doubt you even know there is a story but its essentially a prequel to ff og . Great game great execution and good solid game for the newbs . Not all are fan bois and not all are idiots . Keep an open mind and dont let nostalgia keep your opinions in that limbo. Btw legacy of kain just needs a finish not a remake 😢.
I'm not knocking any of the newer FF's, just remarking on a period of the series history that's often debated. I've played pretty much every FF and enjoyed most of them. I'm actually playing Stranger of Paradise atm, and just completed the Tiamat battle/acquired Sophia, it's a cool game.
Which 13 is underrated 1,2 or 3? That’s classic Enix game design. Instead of making one big epic FF13 they said let’s chop it in to pieces and make 3 good games instead of 1 great game.
@@Theb0YWh0lived1 13 should be viewed as stand alone at the moment any way . But if you know what's your argument again????
@@danryder3865 my argument is FF13-1,2,3 was all bad. Together they might have made one good game.
@@Theb0YWh0lived1 yeah can you imagine the price tag on something like that holy crap. Love 13 btw lightning returns is really cool wish we had a comeback for that game and a vs mode against real players would be awesome!!! But I agree the 13 saga should be played back to back as it's an interesting story and 13 2 improved og 13"s gameplay by bounds it's an experiment and I wish developers would stick to their guns and improve systems instead of making all new ones. Bit 13 is a good example of experiments gone right first two were party mechs the finale was solo mechs but basically the same system. Awsome gameplay. But good lord the size of all three in one would be massive!!!! But I like how you think big awesome comment bro!👍
Id argue final fantasy 11 killed it just as much, even if i did enjoy the game. The momentum they had after 7/8/Tactics/9/10 in like a 4ish year span is insane. 11 Required a lot of resources on their end, and then 12 was kinda a meh game by most fans.
Funnily enough, my friends and I have recently had a similar discussion and went on a rabbit hole of looking for info on this topic 😂 super fun to see someone cover it now!
I’ll say subjectively first, as someone whose first FF was FF12 and then i went full forward and full backward, i dont think this merger killed Square. I feel like there were definitely several dark years but right now we’re “eating good”, and its a matter of tastes if people still like the games or not (as you say), but it seems that the days of bad management are mostly behind us. Looking at the current pacing of CBU1 and CBU3, its quite amazing. Even then, i’d say FF11 is an amazing product even if an mmo, and FF12 too, it only really started cracking when they spent too much time developing their engines…. FF13/versus13 era
Now as for the merger.. i think all that you’ve said stands. However, i also think its important to look at the wider picture of the times in 2001-2003 period or even later. Take a look at how many franchises have been “exploited” those days. Star wars prequels came out many years after the originals just then, HP and Lord of the rings got their movies and some sequels (first Harry potter video game also 2001, LOTR videogames in 2002 and 2003,Pirates of the Caribbean got some sequels there…
I think (and i may be wrong here), we’re looking at the start of the “franchise boom”. When companies realised their IPs need to be exploited in order to quantify growth instead of coming up with something new all the time. Pair that wide trend with SQEX’s wish to go west, with some financial issues from the movie (and drop in sales again after ff7, really), with ever expanding technology that is becoming more expensive anddd their trend to innovate on something each time, AND the original creator leaving in those times… its a bit of a recipe for disaster 😂 i think, even if the merger didnt happen they would have probably gone the “IP exploit” route with sequels and movies and what not, maybe they just wouldnt have had the money to continue so long, but we can only speculate.
Yep, for the record I don't think the merger killed FF or Square either, but looks like I may have given the wrong impression there. Your point about what was happening more broadly within the games industry is a great one though... it's worth noting that along with all the Hollywood blockbusters getting game adaptations, we were also entering the era of the Playstation 2 which I think to this day is one of (if not still the) biggest selling console of all time. It was a point where the big business of games was becoming clear so to re-inforce your point, it makes sense that serialisation of game IPs would go into overdrive at that time.
@@AlleywayJack aww no i think your point came across just right, I wanted to just add my POV and was writing on phone so maybe my point didn’t come across right :’)
Yeah, you’re got a good point about ps2 era as well! So many things happening in the industry all at once, I can imagine it being very difficult trying to stay on top of that. It’s certainly an interesting topic to discuss and you did a really good job in the video, thank you for the work put in!
Forespoken was made with Luminous. Probably the end of that engine's usage. Square should stick to Unreal for the time being. Look at how much CB3 did with Remake and Rebirth in a much shorter dev cycle. There is no harm in cost cutting in smart ways until you can make your own tools efficient and cost effective again.
I just hope that their game engine woes are done. This is one of the reasons for ff not reaching the heights it needed to reach. It took too much of their time and energy and games ended up half baked like 13 and 15. I did and still enjoy those games tho. With rebirth I can say that game engine development hell is gone at least for now. Kitase mentioned how having experience with the engine made it faster to develop the game. And it shows, all the content the game has and the amount of cutscenes,yet it was only made in 3.5 to 4 years. Honestly kinda nuts. Now the teams can actually focus on making a game instead of fighting with the engine. Although I would love for SE to have their REengine type moment, where they finally develop a good in house engine that makes their workflow even better than UE4.
I enjoyed FFX-2 and am hoping for a X-3. FFXV is one of my favourites too so the SE era has been pretty decent imo.
Forspoken was also on Luminous Engine, which I'm advised by informed observers actually ran worse than FFXV despite releasing years after. Hopefully SE will now shift entirely to Unreal and away from proprietary engines of dubious long term value, if any.
11:15 And that is the way it should be. The reason they probably did that, however, is two or even three fold. First they were making games for consoles that had vastly different architecture from each other, so every few years, when a new console gen came out, they knew they would have to throw away everything no matter what. Second, they were "rushing" these games out, I remember watching an interview or documentary where they commented FF7 was developed in a sort of modular way, by multiple different teams. You can imagine the mess that code was by the end of the game, which probably would justify starting fresh for the next game. Third, they always wanted to do better than the last game, technically speaking, and that is evident. I'm not sure FF7 even had proper skeletal animation at all. At least outside of combat you can see clearly that all the characters on the game are made of static meshes rigged with a skeleton. There is no mesh deformation. That of course was featured they added on their later games on the PS1.
The merger + Sakaguchi's exit
As much as I love Sakaguchi and am appreciative of his work… have you seen what he created after leaving? Let’s just say they’re mostly mobile games… He even said himself after “replaying FF7” he was reminded of emotional narratives in games…..
He made lost odyssey? Probably the best final fantasy game post 12 @nelia039
@@nelia039Have you not played Lost Odyssey dude? You're out of your mind. Have you even tried Fantasian? What are you talking about? Do you even know why he said that? Because he gave the idea about the concept of loss based on him losing his mother. Makes me wonder if you even know the developers had to say back then and now.
In my humble opinion, FFX was actually good albeit weird for the absence of an explorable overworld map which did not make too much impact for me since each area is kind of large so it didn't felt lacking. My real nitpicking is the maps/areas on FFXIII that cannot be revisited which is kind of a let down. I enjoyed FFXIII for what it was and still love the story but the "linear" map progression which you cannot go back to and explore kinda threw me off. FFXII was still okay with me. FFXV was a hit or miss and I think it is because it felt more like an action game. I know it's not necessarily a bad thing but I have slight issues when a known brand suddenly switches style. FFXVI was really done well despite it being an action game already and it felt quite good despite me not really liking action games too much, most probably because the story and narrative was constructed really well. I'm open to the idea of company changing directions but I guess I won't be that much excited for the next "FF game" unless they have a really good story. As for the other action games like Valkyrie Elysium and Forspoken...it's a meh for me. I'm more excited to the likes of Octopath Traveler or Triangle Strategy now.
Interesting title of video. I will say back when I saw a game case with squaresoft on it. I knew it was going to be a good game. I can’t say the same for games that say square Enix on it
Yes and no. I personally think it was a combination of the merger and the massive army of talent simply outgrowing the roles they held at Squaresoft. Leadership change as a result of the merger was a large cause of much of that talent leaving as well.
The need for final fantasy to be a "premium" product, graphically speaking, is why I think it's fallen off. There have been duds in the series but the turnaround was faster and there were many other titles coming out, but that all stopped and slowed down.
They recently said a ff8 remake would take 20 years. What? I think there's something very dysfunctional about their work flow.
That's very disappointing news about FF8. They seem to want to avoid revisiting that title at all costs.
@@AlleywayJack which is a shame, some of these games deserve a second try... sigh, maybe one day. 😔
A great example for me of this is FF16 had no exaggeration 20 hours of cutscenes. Baldurs gate 3 probably has 20 minutes. All modern Final Fantasy is a Combat train you ride from cutscene to cutscene. They about to have there 3rd straight game with a level 50 level cap.
The reason why FF7R series is otherwise is literally because it is based off of FF7, which does go by literal 90s Squaresoft trends. I would not hope for a shift back to that dense 90s style.
I would love to see the final fantasy based on the first concept for ff7, a game based on crime investigation
It's called Parasite Eve 1.
FFX is fantastic. Loved it. Make a new rpg with the same exact gameplay and an awesome story and you’ve got a hit on your hands
I would say no for final fantasy. Sure there are some bad eggs looking at you 13 and og 14, not reborn), but it still has some good games. Honestly, I would argue more that other square games not having dragon quest or final fantasy suffer by getting the short end of the stick through lack of marketing support for some (still salty about them giving no attention toward neo twewy) or their business model (nfts, live services, etc).
Easy answer: No. Everything changes over time, and if Square was still pumping out games that followed the exact same formula as the earlier titles, you'd be making videos asking if Squaresoft had forgotten how to innovate. Not to mention, it's hard to look at some of the recent absolutely stellar games SquareEnix has made (FF7:Remake, for example), and not see the influences of earlier games. FFXII was the first to ditch the random encounter model, letting you see your enemies on the screen at all times, and introduced the gambit system and programmable ally characters. FFXIII switched to more action-focused combat with the Paradigm system that let you focus on behaviors, rather than specific actions. FFXV let you swap between characters, customizing individual behavior sets, while maintaining the ability to control characters directly. It's all iterative. Without the experimentation of titles post FFX, we wouldn't have the excellent experiences we've seen in FF7:Remake and FFXVI.
And that's not even taking into account that games like FFXII and FFXIII have also aged remarkably well. Like, they're different than what came before, sure. But I'd call them successful experiments. And clearly they sold well enough to represent a financial success, or else Square wouldn't still be making FF titles. So like...where's this idea coming from that the merger somehow killed FF?
This is also probably closest to how I view the series. It's constantly experimented and changed over time whether it's the 'key terms' system from FF2, or the Junction System from FF8, or the action-gameplay of FF15 - all of which I liked. If you look at Dragon Quest which comparatively hasn't changed that much over the years, it's often been accused of, as you've suggested of a hypothetical Squaresoft, no longer innovating. As for the hate towards the merger, as discussed in the video I think it came at a time when many other things were happening at Square and it's been conflated with other reasons the approach to making the games has changed
Here's an anecdote that isn't really worth much. When FF13 came out I played it on and off again for a while. Then right in the middle of it just before the final part, I put it down. There was nothing wrong with the game or the console I was playing it on. I just, put it down. Then I RE-played FF9 from beginning to end just before going back and finishing FF13.
FF7 Rebirth will be massive and may be the birth of a new golden age for the franchise ❤
Absence of the world map was one of the things I felt hard with FF10. I forgave the game for that, but I was hoping we'd be getting back to that. Well, not too late, FF19 is right around the corner I guess...
Kicking hironobu on the side was too much
Ive always thought this.
It didn't kill the FF series, but it definitely killed other IPs.
Yes.
Yup the merger killed it. after 12 the magic was gone. Why? Because Sakaguchi is the secret sauce.
Now we are stuck with hacks like Nojima and Nomura.
nope, it didn't.
After Spirits within, Square was going bankrupt, so if they didn’t merge, they are done for
I really liked ff10 as it was one of my fav games, evenmoreso than ff9 but FF10 wasn't an ff game. FF9 was the last ff game and unlike ff10, ff9 was less liked but stuck with me more over the years and I was more fold of it than the mere spike that was ff10.
It wasn’t the merger with Enix that killed Final Fantasy. It was Kingdom Hearts that killed Final Fantasy.
Kingdom Hearts is a fine series on its own, but its success resulted in the pollution of Final Fantasy with the garbage button-masher battle system with other characters on auto-pilot.
It’s also where Square first started to scratch the nostalgia itch, resulting in a series that had previously resisted direct sequels instead experiencing diminishing returns on nostalgia properties.
I would say it did. But X is still my favourite FF game.
X is definitely Top 3 for me.
@@AlleywayJack Nice! I really love Yuna and Auron as characters!
X is definitely the last gasp of whatever we’d imagine the glory days of Final Fantasy is.
In more positive note, I love all the characters in FFX, and beautiful-yet-trapped land of Spira.
I didn’t like FFX when released. I may give it another go sometime but something about the world just wasn’t interesting.
I had mixed feelings about it at the time, it's grown to become one of my favourites.
They went from JRPG to hack and slash games.
yeah, because octopath traveler, dragon quest 11 and bravely default, are the pinacle of hack and slash...
@@marcosdheleno the title of the video is talking about final fantasy, my comment was towards that. Do better my man.
@@cesarbarbosa4109 the title also mentions square enix.
and in case you dont know, kingdom hearts, as well as octopath traveler AND bravely default are linked to FF.
bravely default in special is literaly a final fantasy game, as its part of the "final fantasy: 4 heroes of light" side franchise.
@@marcosdheleno “did squaresoft enix merger kill final fantasy” you don’t seem to understand.
@@cesarbarbosa4109 what part of "kingdom hearts,and most importantly bravely default" being part of the final fantasy franchise you didnt understand?
10000% yes, since the merger the spirit of the games have been comparatively flat.
so we gonna forget dragon quest 8 and 11? octopath traveler1 and 2? front mission 4 and 5? kingdom hearts 2? the world ends with you? bravely default 1 and 2 and bravely second? drakengaard, nier, and nier automata? FFXII? the remake of seiken densetsu 3? a game that was cried for, for a literal decade as the best JRPG to never leave japan along side MOON? hell, the remake of of live a live, a game that NOBODY outside of people who emulated translated snes games knew about.
and that's not even bringing the fact that FFXIII and XV are FAR more popular than people actually belive. i have yet to play xiii, so i wont defend it, but i do know ALOT of people really loved it. even though you would think it is mostly despised by the majority, but nop, its the other way around.
and its not like psx era square and enix were perfect either, both had massive stinkers. or do people forget about ergheitz? even parasite eve 2, a game im actually a big defender of, was far more divisive back then. same with FFVIII, which was seen by many as the worst FF game, before XIII gained that fame(and its not even the worst FF game since Mystic Quest exist).
i could go on and on. both in how the older square wasnt as perfect(even though the majority of my all time favorites were made by them), as well as how we are getting ALOT of cool games from them even now.
This video aged very well lol
Yep... at least they didn't cancel their new NFT game 😂💀
Let’s see Squarsoft developed and shipped FF6-10 in a 8 year period. FF7 remake was 8 and a half years from first teaser. Enix first Banger was FFX-2. Final Fantasy has been ran by people who don’t like Final Fantasy games for the last 20 years or so. In 25 years they have done nothing to grow the brand. Even know every new Final Fantasy game comes out and looks less and less like a FF game. They say they make changes to grow the brand and reach a wider audience. FF8 sold more copies than FF7 remake and FF16. So who is not buying these new games? The old fans? Or the new fans they desperately crave?
the freedom in which people keep throwing major ff7 spoiler in every video is beyond me. I know so many that still hadn't tried the game or only tried the remake and loved it. sad for them to stumble across horrible videos like this.
Seems like ffx-2 and ff12 was the indicator that things were going to change for me. Wasnt ff10 or ff11, they still felt very ff
Even 12 was quintessential FF but it had a rough development and another genius (Yasumi Matsuno) was lost.
Yes, I am not a cash cow.
I just think FF has not been the same since losing Sakaguchi. He was the heart of the franchise.
Whats your reason for saying "he was the heart of the franchise" ? because...
sakaguchi wasnt director of FF game since FF 5 and the story outlines he came up with for 6,7,8 were largely changed and was multiple different writers not just him. The first game he made with his new studio, Blue Dragon, was not great either and the story was dumb. Kitase and his team are largely responsible for the great FF games, stories, characters, systems.
Let’s just say Sakaguchi’s precious project almost ruined Square and Final Fantasy 😂 “The Spirits Within” was his way of aspiring to be the famous person who he always wanted to be.
@@mikec5400It was a group effort on all the Sakaguchi led FF games. He's not solely responsible for everything good about those games, but he was the captain of the ship that everyone respected. He heavily contributed to the story decisions in FF1 through FF9, with the exception of FF8. (When he worked on the Spirits Within movie.)
Just because he didn't hold the title of "Director" for FF6 or FF7 doesn't mean he wasn't involved in those stories. For example, he's also credited as a Producer on FF9, yet everyone recognizes that he was the lead creative for that game.
Final fantasy died the day X-2 came out.
sure didnt
Yes. We haven't had a FF game after IX. I refuse to call the half-baked, trend-seeking slop we get nowadays "Final Fantasy." Rebirth seems to be the closest we've gotten in the past 24 years, and even that has nothing on real FF. XV and XVI aren't even FF games, they're modern AAA trend-seeking slop. XIV is the most overrated MMO of all time with a literal cult for a fanbase. XIII is, well, XIII. Nobody talks about XII for a reason. XI is another MMO. X is very underwhelming...
I love with action combat, even if I prefer turn-based combat overall. However, my primary issue with the post-IX era is the lack of passion, unique and fantastical worlds, quirky and memorable characters, deep and complex character relationships, unique story beats and interesting, complex writing, realistic, relateable, and complex character arcs, funny and silly dialogue, interesting enemies (not just goblins, Malboros, etc., for the 10,000x time for "fanservice" nobody wants), and so on.
Enix is a very disgusting company that ruined gaming.
The biggest mistake for square was making sequels. Second biggest was making Nomura a writer 😵
The edgy take of Twitter 😂
@DaemonJuice First of if this is still about FF7R being different it was not Nomura's decision as he wanted a 1:1 remake, it was the OG director and now producer of this series Kitase who wanted the changes.
Also regarding story and writing Sakaguchi was actually the one who told Nomura to not make the plots simple.
@@nelia039same people who immediately jumped to the conclusion about FF7R being Kingdom Hearts-y when in fact Nomura wanted a 1:1 remake but the original director and now producer of the game wanted something else.
16 and 7R were garbage.
Even if I don’t agree with all of the business practices that Square has made in recent years, I do at least appreciate the creative decisions and risks they’ve taken with Final Fantasy and their other games. I know I’m in the minority, but I really like the gameplay of FFXVI for instance, which is a direct result of wanting to explore new mechanics.
I do very much agree that the company is spreading itself too thin, and I hope they don’t invest in blockchain games and other such scams.
Good news that they are focusing on good game quality as a high priority.
Agree, experimentation has been part of FF since the earliest games and they've always shifted mechanics and play styles. I say this as someone who enjoys the Junction system 😅 but yes, not a fan of that blockchain stuff Square is into.
Sakaguchi San being fired ruined FF
I won't think it would be a good idea anyway if they keep him around after that flop that put square in death's door anyway that enix was basically almost reconsidered about the merger which happened to go on after kingdom hearts I and final fantasy x so yeah there's nothing you can do about it
@@jethropalillo1746 but that was one movie he worked on with a completely different team. I think the staff at square are great I just believe they worked better as a team and without an important member the mission got lost.
Live a little! Things change and of course it’s not going to be perfect… but these “retrospective” videos are getting out of hand, considering Final Fantasy is very much “alive”. I promise you being a purist will not lead you to happiness.
agreed even though final fantasy 7 remake was a success and i am sure final fantasy rebirth will be a success the people that are hating on it i think don't want any change. that is the problem in gaming today they want the same game 20 years later instead of changing it for the times you are in.the battle system was excellent in final fantasy 7 in 1997 i loved it but i feel that the action battle system works today.also i loved the story of the original however i agree with their choice to expand midgar as i wanted to explore midgar more.
@@supersaiyaman11589 Same! If it anything it adds on to everything before. Long ago I would’ve understood the “don’t change” POV but it’s so much more enjoyable experiencing all aspects of what the devs/artists intended to create. I’m excited for Rebirth! FF7 truly has a rich story that deserves to be told in greater detail.
Certainly not a purist, I've enjoyed almost every FF including FF16 and FF7R
@@supersaiyaman11589exactly people are just loves to whine and wants everything about themselves and what they like. Square and every company cant cater to everyone, they are companies who needs to make money and adapt to whatever the market wants. Them experimenting and slowly getting away from turn based is them innovating and trying to evolve. Right now if their main ff games are all turn based, like before their games will not sell as the new generation will not play turn based at all. That is catering only to the turnbase purist which is not a lot.
Those that were there, Squaresofts quality was so far ahead of every other developer at the time, it was like they were working with different hardware. They were clearly an incredibly talented and passionate group of people but not only that, their philosophy was to not leave anything in the tank hence the name. This philosophy clearly came from Hinonobu Sakaguchi, who was not only a great designer but knew how to cultivate talent. Upon the failure of The Spirits Within, their new president was this as an opportunity to his philosophy of game design, and that is to milk Final Fantasy for all it was worth. The company of a shell of what Squaresoft was. They have not made a single game since the merger that even comes close to their best work from that era. And don't come at me with 12 or 14, if you call either of those a masterpiece, then I feel sorry for you.
Before watching this video, in my opinion these three reasons are involved with the downfall in popularity:
1st: Rise in action titles. PS1 wasn't able to pull off real time action in video games and so the JRPG titles were the most cinematic experiences that video games could offer in terms of action design. Maybe not as important for fans of the series, but for my dad... this was the reason to buy FFVII and he didn't return for FFX on the PS2.
2nd: Hironobu Sakaguchi left SE and with his departure he left a void on his position that, technically speaking, still isn't filled in. Naoki Yosida and Yoshinori Kitase both currently share that role between them and have different visions on what the franchise should be. But don't forget that there were about 10 years or so without any shared vision in the franchise.
3rd: JRPGs are epic tales and now require too much time to develop, cursed by their massive scale. Just take a look at the Final Fantasy VII Remake project, which might eventually end after 15 years of development across three titles. It is something Final Fantasy should do to meet fan expectations on gameplay, story and world... but it won't meet sales expectations to allow them to do so. It is a wonder that FFXVI released in this state, but fans judge it for a lack of controllable party members and real open world.
And because of this grand scale, they either need to cut on graphical wonders and realism to be more like the SNES and PS1 games. OR take too much time between titles, like both Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy suffer from nowadays and results in a decline in popularity. I'm born in 2000 and the first Final Fantasy title that was genuinely popular among my age demographic was Final Fantasy XV in 2015! Meanwhile people who were born in 1990 remember the popularity of FFVII in 1997.
People always point to time between mainline (singleplayer*) releases of modern Final Fantasy, be it 4 years or 7 years. But Dragon Quest is currently on a near 7-year hiatus between XI and XII, after gaps of 4 years or longer.
I'm going to watch it later, after I did my planned work for today on my novel. :)
Edit: Okay, interesting points. :)
I've heard this take so many times and it's so hypocritical. Square as is went completely broke, this is the only chance they had. Also i believe it very much was an enrichment to both sides of the company
Pretty much this. I'm willing to bet that even if they made, near-objectively, the greatest Final Fantasy game ever made....just by virtue of the developer no longer being the same as it was during the rose-tinted nostalgic years of old curmudgeons, these armchair critics would still throw around words like 'soulless' and 'hollow'. It's such a rocking-chair 'get off my porch' mentality. Zero regard for the reality of being a business in an insanely fast-paced industry.
yes, as much as i love FF, i hate squenix, FF under squenix become less and less popular, they also kill other francies that i love, like parasite eve, front mission, chrono...
Define killing. Final fantasy is more successful than it has ever been. I guess you don’t like it as much as you used to? That’s not really the death of final fantasy.
Killing the "spirit" of final fantasy, he should say. They have a totally different identity post FFX. The series up until X had many trademark design choices that gave the series a particular feel. After X, that has completely changed
I still enjoy FF games as much as I used to. The video is just discussing a period in which they changed and a lot of players disliked it
How is the final fantasy brand more successful? Please define this success..
Pretty much, it’s in the mainstream, it’s making far more money with the sales of 16 and the 7R series, and all of it is lauded more than ever. Furthermore, people consider those two game groups a successful rebound from FFXV. Final Fantasy is more prosperous than ever.
Yes.