Antinatalism and Ethics
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- čas přidán 9. 07. 2024
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"Antinatalism is based on the principle that suffering of whatever kind or degree should not be unnecessarily caused or perpetuated, and that human existence always entails suffering that we can neither escape nor justify, least of all by experiencing pleasures. Thus, the only way to end all suffering would be to cease producing beings who suffer."
- Thomas Ligotti
It doesn't have anything to do with eugenics. Just don't subject your own child to all the suffering inherent to life - you can't guaranteee them long lasting happiness or contentment and you can't predict the level of suffering they will experience throughout their life, so why risk it? I don't see why this is so hard to understand.
It does though. What a privileged white take (btw, you might examine the white privileged male bias of many antinatalist thinkers aka "fathers" 🤮) to say that life must be without suffering. The solution to suffering in the world is not to create a policy that controls women's reproduction, perhaps you should spend your energy working to dismantle the systems that create poverty and suffering in the first place.
@@ParkrosePermaculture: You seem to fundamentally misunderstand the concepts you're discussing. For example, anti-natalism isn't race specific. Additionally, anti-natalism is a staple of feminism, which is explicitly anti-white supremacy.
@@ParkrosePermaculture the assertion that anyone who thinks that life should be without suffering is merely blinded by "white male privilege" is hilarious. mother teresa would be proud of such a devotion to suffering :^)
4:49 No NON-EXISTENT person can ever be hurt by any injustice or problems you can ever list, whether White Black Asian whatever, be it poverty, inequality, hunger, natural disaster, food poisoning, terminal illnesses, murdering, you can sit here all day and name them all.
Keep fighting for equality etc etc we are doing it too, but don't create more people who are now currently residing in the eternal bliss of non-existence. They can potentially be turned into victims or perpetrators, especially since society hasn't even come to a collective conclusion what is justice etc etc. This is antinatalism. Basically you haven't understood what we are saying properly.
(PS I am Asian but I don't think this piece of info is important at all)
ANTINATALISM iz in Ecclesiastes. Antinatalism is an extremely compassionate philosophy perhaps beyond our ability to comprehend. They love and care about life so much that they won't bring one into it. It would guarantee the ending of ALL suffering for your unborn or your money back. Jordan Peterson states that although the world is a terrible place, it's not a good reason why you shouldn't bring kids here. Lmso!. That's bad philosophy
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An antinatalist inspect the world like you would inspect a house to make sure its livable or a car to make sure its safe to drive. They ignore the good things in life bc they speak for themselves but the bad things sticks out like a sore thumb which becomes the basis for thier reasons why not to procreate. And like any inspector they will suggest a solution to a problem that could become much worst if not treated or if nothing is done about it. Thus, the reason for the philosophy of antinatalism. Its a simple solution to a complex problem.
The reasons for not wanting children rather as an AN or childfree person which are essentially the same thing far out weigh the reasons for wanting them and any fair and competent judge would side with the complainty (antinatalist/ childfree) bc they have historical documents and reciepts. So when ppl like Angela oppose the philosophical views of an antinatalist (want to be free of children) they oppose sound reasoning and good judgment. I havent heard any arguments capable of really refuting antinatalism which is the beginning of wisdom and the ending of ALL suffering for those who follow the philosophy of antinatalism.
You’re describing an anti nature reason of life. The purpose of life is to perpetuate itself. Any other reasoning is just a theology and you have to believe in it for it to be valid.
My white friends told me that I should not have my kids because I was poor and alone
I'm white too so they even go against their own
Not everyone was like that but a few were
Hi Angela, I’ve been a subscriber for years and I’ve been a leftist and antinatalist for longer. I’m also childfree by choice (my partner wants bio kids but I say no). I have some points maybe you’d consider non-eugenic:
1. I agree that our society is very anti child, and that’s why under these conditions I wouldn’t recommend anybody have children. but, I wouldn’t legislate against it as I fundamentally disagree with laws limiting bodily autonomy.
2. The amount of resources produced and consumed by society is unsustainable for the environment and will eventually fail catastrophically for billions of people, and nobody can be sure their descendants won’t be among them. I do not believe it is possible to stop climate change or topsoil erosion at this point, only mitigate their consequences. whether in capitalism, or socialism. (Read. Desert, 2011)
3. There’s also the issue of consent. If I were asked, I would have declined, and I’m not the only one.
If that’s something you’re not willing to consider, I’d ask the reader to consider any personal bias they might have.
For myself, I feel like a domesticated work animal for capitalists and landlords. I can’t even afford my own place for a garden, so I watch channels like yours to vicariously enjoy one.
Thank you for all the informational videos and life lessons, even though we may disagree on this point. 💙
Thank you for presenting your POV. As a realist that understands our predicament I’ve come across many anti natalists. None of them were racist and most were extremely empathetic and would like to see the world treat everyone that exists with dignity and compassion.
I also think the idea of talking about population growth being racist came in response to Paul Erlich’s book in the 60’s maybe? I think it is more of a right wing evangelical talking point as a way to get voters to stop abortion and BC.
It’s not about color or any form of segregation. It’s simple math to support earth care, people care and fair share.
I strongly believe for over populated countries like India, 1-child policy for all citizens irrespective of their financial status, religion etc is necessary to ensure no one starves on streets.
Agree we created the poverty and scarcity not just via greed but also via neglect. Policies are very critical and should be put in place but first I do not understand how any policy can ignore the volume of people on earth because earth resources are limited. Second, policy is slow clean up and change esp when we are talking about healing planet and its inhabitants.
Agree, over population is primarily in non-white and poor countries and hence while I think human rights is a global subject, population control has to be based on population density of poor over populated countries without any exceptions and loopholes.
I feel like the term anti-natalism is so loaded that it has become worthless to talk about.
Oh man... I know life can be tough sometimes, but I think (now that I do have kids) that having to explain to them why they never got to live life at all would be tougher than teaching them how to deal with life's inevitable challenges.
I don’t agree or disagree with the anti-natialism thing as this is the first time I have heard of it as a label (the whole over population reason I of course have heard, not having kids when you can’t afford to support them etc.). However, it’s very sad to think that people are so negative that they want people not to have children as the children didn’t choose to be born and suffer.
How many people have suffered in this life, but are truly grateful to have lived and be alive. Don’t belittle them, just because you can’t stand a little pain and hardship in your privileged life.
Brother plenty of people also don't feel grateful to have lived. Nearly a million people every year commit suicide. The way I see it is - you can't regret not being born but you can regret being born; that alone is a good enough reason for me not to have kids.
@@bendaniels1235 Using suicide statistics is not evidence that those poor souls did not want to be born, it is proof that they thought they no longer wanted to live at that point in their lives (and that’s excluding the likely extreme minority who made the attempt for other reasons, not really wanting to die but having it backfire on them). At that point, they could no longer see the light and the end of the tunnel, thought life was no longer worth living, everyone’s story is different. It does not mean that a day, month, year ago, they were not grateful to be living.
Honestly, it’s fine if you do not want children, it is a problem if you force your ideals/reasons on others. Meaning I have the same issue if a couple/woman/man is forced to have a child against their will/forced to be a parent when they didn’t want that.
@@louise2209 I'm sure there are plenty of people among the suicidal who wish they had never been born. As far as 'forcing my ideals on others' I mean I'm just saying more people should consider the sheer magnitude of the decision they're making when they force a new life into this world. It doesn't make sense to me to take an unnecessary gamble with someone else's life when the other option is just not doing that and then no one is harmed and no risk is taken.
From a spiritual perspective, the soul chooses their parents and agrees to the experiences they will have down here in the matrix. So the argument that it's cruel to bring children into the world if there's any chance they may experience any amount of suffering is nonsensical. For many, experiencing and overcoming hardship makes you stronger and they came to Earth to specifically experience that sort of hardship. Also, it's pure (cynical) assumption that your children will automatically become workers (wage slaves) and taxpayers. Maybe your child will be the next MLK Jr., Gandhi, or significantly contribute to building a better world for all in their own way.
What do you say to someone who is unconvinced by arguments involving the existence of a soul?
I find that the expectation to endure suffering or become a world leader is an unfair burden to place on a being that need not exist.
Pre-existing souls choosing your parents is a fantasy. The concept of pre-existing souls is a fantasy.