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Monitor Mixing - Do This to Make Your IEM Mix Better! 19kHz Pilot Tone Issues
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- čas přidán 12. 08. 2024
- Do this one thing to make your IEM mix better! In this video I demonstrate pilot tone issues in wireless IEM monitors and how to keep pilot tone issues from happening.
Monitor Mixing and Monitor Engineering is often a topic not spoken about a lot. This is the fourth video in my new Monitor Engineering series dedicated to teaching you how to set up and optimize your audio console for monitor mixing.
Learn more about my X32 Fundamentals course at: course.drewbrashler.com.
Products shown in this video:
Behringer X32: sweetwater.sjv.io/g1RvM9
Chapters:
00:00 Intro to Monitor Mixing 19kHz Pilot Tone Issues with IEM's
00:18 Overview of IEM Pilot Tone Issues
03:37 What Does a Pilot Tone Issue Sound Like?
05:43 Wireless IEM Audio Limitations
07:39 Do THIS On Every Bus That Feeds Wireless IEM's
10:23 Conclusion
Love it! I would be interested in a video on troubleshooting common IEM mix complaints from band members. Also - special considerations for mixing for people with existing hearing damage and others that insist on always “taking one ear out”.
Always crushing it. Keep using printouts. It cracks me up but it just works. Love it.
Thanks so much for all the work you do for the audio community Mr. Brashler. This is absolutely fantastic info that you provide to us so regularly.
My pleasure!
Seriously! I cannot express my gratitude enough. Thank you Drew!
Excellent video. We sometimes experience funky stuff going on in our mixes that we can never seem to replicate or fully explain to people who have knowledge. I always knew there was a pilot tone, but wasn't aware that it could cause such havoc. Definitely going to be applying these EQ cuts to our wireless IEM busses and hopefully this is the fix! Thank you
Definitely didn't know about pilot tone. So much knowledge for such a young guy! Awesome vid as usual!
Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for watching!
Your videos are so good. So informative. Please keep doing these.
i've been in the industry a long time, and i've never been truly happy with wireless IEMs. This was an awesome video, thanks for sharing!
Drew, this is freaking brilliant. We have two wireless IEM (PSM300), and was having trouble with the signal clipping on the transmitter with the AUX send on -12 db. On my Presonus 24R, I have all Aux for all 4 IEM (the other two are wired) eq'd to match the Harman Kardon curve from Github. I threw a GEQ on the two PSM300 Aux and got rid of everything above 15khz and below 35hz. Much clearer, no clipping of transmitter or dropouts. Thank you so much for the information!
Loving this new series! Would love to see some more stuff on applying fx while using in ears!
Not only explaining, but showing as well (!!!) is so, so good. Learnt a lot! Legend!
I can't thank you enough for this video. We've been having Wireless IEM dropout issues at our church and I'm now thinking it's because we have Avioms feeding our transmitters that have a ton of high end on the vocal and drum overhead mic channels, probably clogging up the pilot tone. I can't wait to test putting some EQs in between to see if it fixes the issues - Appreciate your extensive knowledge and heart to teach, Drew!
Our church currently uses Avioms as well and I'm very curious if this trick will alleviate our drop out issues too. How would you go about putting the low pass on the avioms?
Played my first show with the updated in ear rig after adding this eq, and the occlusion eq for my vocals. Sounded incredible!!!
YES!!!! I love hearing this. Thank you for letting me know.
@@DrewBrashler I also used your eq and effects preset packs. Your videos and presets alone have made a massive difference on my IEM’s and I can’t thank you enough!
It would have been great if you tried the 19k tone test after the EQ changes were made.
Should this EQ curve not just be handled in the transmitter then? Because as I understand it from this video, the transmitter/receiver are also the components that are limiting the frequency response and adding the 19Khz pilot tone. It figures they would then also apply the EQ curve on the signal to be transmitted to make their system work more reliable.
This video is gold! Thank you so much for all the videos you do. I had no idea about this and this video comes in super handy for me as I'm going on a tour in 2 days. Thanks again!
Hi Drew, One thing i didn't get is why you have to use High cuts twice ? If you use the 15Khz alone wouldn't make the trick by itself ? What's the reason for using 2 Hicuts ? Thanks
It’s a low pass filter at 15k plus the notch at 19k. I’d call it extra insurance against running into the pilot tone issue: the slope of the low pass probably isn’t steep enough to completely eliminate the issue at 19k, so adding the notch there takes the audio in that range >20dB below where it might cause trouble. Treating the send to a transmitter with this filtering will give you audio headroom to play with, keep you well away from the radio sections limiters and just make the system function more efficiently/optimally, plus the squelch might be more easily set.
I love simple (and often unknown, misunderstood or overlooked) adjustments to gear config like this that make things more trouble-free and reliable from a functionality PoV.
The best thing I ever see about IEMs. This help me a lot
Months I’ve been trying to figure that out :( it was truly a revelation
This is great! I have experienced this issue before when dealing with a drummers IEM's when they ask for a lot of overheads. I was un aware of the reasoning but this makes so much sense. Thank you!
... i had mistakenly believed/assumed that the rack-mount IEM transmitters had low-pass filters on their inputs to filter out 15khz on input as well..... wow i'm wrong, thank you for correcting my ways
If there's an FCC limitation on high frequencies you can have in your audio signal, then why are the transmitters ignoring it and transmitting it anyways? The only way it could interfere with the pilot tone is if it were being transmitted, right? Why don't transmitter manuafacturers just put a super steep low pass filter at 15khz before encoding the signal for transmitting, if the receivers can't handle the higher frequencies? I don't know, something doesn't add up.
You rule Drew! Would love to get your thoughts on polarity in respects to being a monitor engineer! Flipping polarity on wedges, sidefills, IEMs etc...cheers!
Thanks so much, I'll make sure to add this to the video list!
Maybe I missed it, but I was under the impression that the 19kHz tone was to signify a stereo signal to the receiver so that it was aware to decode the multiplex signal on the carrier channel, which is why the frequency range should only go up to 15kHz to prevent interference of the pilot (and interference with the decoding process). In a mono signal, the pilot is absent, telling the receiver that the signal is not stereo and does not need decoding.
Regardless, limiting the output bandwidth to 15kHz on a wireless system makes sense.
My hearing is shot. I certainly can't hear whatever frequency my wife's irritated speaking tone is.
But this was super interesting and I will be crafting a bus eq to sculpt this out for all my wireless IEM bus mixes.
Makes a lot of sense from how you explained it but I have two questions:
1. If these packs only support up to 15khz and the pilot tone sits at 19khz why do they not come prebuilt with a low pass filter set on their input - surely this would avoid the issue in the first place?
2. The explanation around FCC seems confusing. If they insist that audio is not transmitted above 15kHz then how are the devices able to send and receive at 19khz (surely this is outside the allowed spectrum)?
Not saying there is anything wrong with your explanation or observation just seems confusing to me?
The IEM transmitter has a limiter that is sensitive to high frequencies. The analog transmission has a 75 microsecond pre-emphasis high frequency boost. The receiver in turn, rolls off the highs and this results in less FM noise.
If you have a high cut at 15kHz why do you need a 19khz notch cut as well. Great video btw.
Thank you for this video. You explained this better than I've heard before. very helpful!
Audio Technica's 3000 series transmits up to 19khz according to their spec sheet... although I've only been able to achieve these results when in mono. It drops out at about 15-16khz in stereo.
Frequency response is 40hz - 14.1khz according to the spec sheet in the manual.
Thanks Drew, these videos are really helping out church
Thanks so much! I'm always happy to help!
Looks like they are using the same FM Stereo matrix modulation scheme with 19Khz pilot tone. Thanks for the demonstration.
Most folks can't hear up to 19k anyway.
Ya the drummer
So, do I understand correctly that Sennheisers statement in their manual of the EW G4 IEM (AF frequency response 25 to 15,000 Hz) cannot be true because of the technical limitations of the used FM multiplexing (MPX) technology limiting the AF frequency range to 30 Hz-15 kHz?
I used to be a broadcast engineer. The 15 KHz low pass filter is an integral part of the stereo generator in broadcast transmitter systems, so regardless of what you feed into the transmitter input, the audio will be filtered so it does not interfere with the 19 kHz stereo pilot. I'm surprised that IEM transmitters do not have in-built 15 kHz lowpass filters, as do broadcast transmitters.
Most IEM systems have that low pass filter, but you can overcome that filter if you boost enough in the HF. If we imagine a 24dB/Oct LPF at 15 kHz, at 19 kHz you are only down about 10 dB. I imagine the better transmitters like your broadcast employ much deeper LPF's but I don't think the IEM transmitters we use do.
Thanks for watching!
@@DrewBrashler Yeah, 10 dB is nowhere near enough, because 19 kHz pilot injection is only 8 - 10% total modulation, so the pilot is 10 dB down already.
This was a great video. Never heard about this, thank you!
I love this Drew. God bless you and yours
I'm wondering why IEM manufacturers don't put a hi-cut at 15kHz on their transmitters inputs if the frequency response won't go up further anyway. Easy thing to do and they would get rid of that issue with the pilot tone. Tbh i always thought they wouldn't let me send anything on the same frequency as the pilot tone by cutting it out on the inputs but you've proven me wrong.
Exactly my thinking. Why don‘t they just filter out anything that could interfere with the pilot tone? That would save so many people‘s day..
I never realized this, thank you so much!
Extremely helpful, thanks Drew 🙏
That was so so explanatory thanks maestro.
This was helpful. Thanks Drew!
Great to know and apply to my setup, thanks for the tip!
Thanks Drew. Great again.
Absolutely brilliant!
Drew, this is so helpful!
Ur the best because u help me with your video.
Thank You!! I'm applying this right now!
Nice! Thanks for watching!
Why do you have to cut those frequencies at the board when your wireless system is already doing/limiting it for you?
Thanks for the video. Why cut 19 if you’re already cutting at 15?
Same Question here
Sometimes you need surgical EQ to ensure you are cutting a specific frequency out, especially when applying low / high cuts. It's because the shape of the cut still bleeds the frequency through.
Great question! I put the hi-cut to filter out the frequencies that go up to 20kHz. My thought process on that one is since the transmitter can't reproduce it, why send it. Remember that a LPF has a dB/octave slope, so even with the hi-cut, there is only going to be so much of a reduction to 19kHz. So the PEQ at 19kHz allows me to really solidify the reduction of the audio in the area of the pilot tone.
@@paulvenkman Gotcha, didn't realize the slope wasn't adjustable with this mixer
But. such extreme notch filters introduce a lot of phase-issues. I mean I get your point, but don’t you worry about the phasing of the mix?
Hello Drew! Super useful videos, keep it going! I was wondering if you could explain, how to make it so the Music/Sequence/Click Track, or whatever is being played from the USB recorder, can be recorded into a DAW as if it was a regular IN Channel, I have tried a couple of routing options but I have not been able to make it function. Thanks in advance!!
thank u Mr. Brashler from sri lanka
I have just started using a bluetooth wireless IEM system, I'm guessing this wouldn't apply to Bluetooth transmitters?
Great video!!!
Love the videos bro , can you do a video on the p16’s next and how to send a perfect signal. Where it is super clean , whenever my sounds man turns me up or down , I feel it in my in-ears .
Sounds like he might have the feed for your P16's set up as post fader. Have you checked out my videos on the P16 system yet? czcams.com/video/n0UiaSymZ3M/video.html Hope this helps you!
Yes sir I have , I’ll definitely have to check this on the board
Interesting that on Sweetwater, the audio frequency response is 20-19k, but the Shure spec sheet says 35-15k. Seems like a large oversight. Glad you pointed out this intormation
For the Shure PSM1000, that is.
That is really interesting! Nice catch!
the frequency response might be for a Shure combo pack that comes with earbuds? and the listed response is for the earbuds, which would be true if plugged into a wired system?
Very interesting, Drew. Thanks.
Glad you enjoyed it
@@DrewBrashler actually, I need to rewatch it. That 19k tone thing is weighing on me!
Very helpful and informative! Does a wireless mic have a similar freq that the mic and receiver use to communicate? Any special considerations there?
why do a PEQ cut at 19k if your putting a low pass on at 15k?
Hey there! Thank you so much for this IEM specific video series!
One maybe a little bit random question: Do you know if the Sennheiser ac41 would work with their XSW IEM?
I think that if you put any signal above 15k at high level, you will get this effect, so it's not 19k problem only. (just bc iem input is overdriven) So, yeah, hi-cut on output is nice, but i don't think that 19k filter will make things better.
If you overload the input with any signal you'll get this effect.
You are remarkable.. I am new to the Behringer x32 compact. I am trying my best to find way around it. Just a few days ago I cannot get any audio feed to go to the monitors. The two main speakers work great but my 3 floor monitors have no feed coming through them from the console. What advice can you give me? Thanks
Hello Drew, 1st - great Channel.Thanks for your work on it. 2nd: Is it the same with Wireless Transmitters for Instruments(Sennheiser EW etc.)? They also have Pilot-Tones...do i have to eq this typical frequencies as well?
Is it possible to burn the Tom Piloto when I abuse the 19khz frequency excessively?
Wouldn’t it make sense for mfgs to put an input filter on the transmitter to eliminate this issue?
Hey Drew. Could you take some time to run through a video of similarity. I'm using 2 HUB4s, 8 DP48s, and 8 PSM 900s. How would I apply this with these components?
-42 on sensitivity on the transmitter, why?? I always use -23, How do you calibrate that?
Is that a Sound Bullet plugged into input 5?
hello, i have 2 questions:
1. is the pilot tone fixed at 19kKz across all brands or is it specific to senheiser (we are using LD systems)
2. why PEQ in combination with hi-cut?
I was curious to know why both was used as well. Thanks for asking that. I hope we get a response.
Yes, the 19kHz tone is going to be for any wireless IEM's that use Stereo MPX for their transmission, which for the most popular units I see would be all of the Shure PSM units and all of the Sennheiser IEM units.
I put the hi-cut to filter out the frequencies that go up to 20kHz. My thought process on that one is, since the transmitter can't reproduce it, why send it.
The PEQ on 19kHz is to help solidify the reduction of the audio in the area of the pilot tone. Remember that a hi-cut still has a dB/octave drop off, so a 15kHz hi-cut might not be down as much as you want at 19kHz.
Thanks for the question!
Bingo- a 6/12/18 dB/8ve LPF at 15k will only take 19k down maybe 2-4-6dB for those slopes. A -12/-15 notch at 19k with the extra reduction of the LPF slope basically guarantees there won’t be any issue.
If you're rolling off everything above 15khz, why would you need a -15db notch at 19khz as well?
This is exactly what I want to know as well. I was hoping I could find the answer
Actually @djbassick a few comments up has asked the same think and it was answered there.
@@Shakespierre i dont see any comments by a djbassick
@@LaminarSound Count 8 comments up. It's there
This is what was answered: "
@DrewBrashler
2 weeks ago
Great question! I put the hi-cut to filter out the frequencies that go up to 20kHz. My thought process on that one is since the transmitter can't reproduce it, why send it. Remember that a LPF has a dB/octave slope, so even with the hi-cut, there is only going to be so much of a reduction to 19kHz. So the PEQ at 19kHz allows me to really solidify the reduction of the audio in the area of the pilot tone."
Hi Drew! You are the boss, and help me a lot! Can you please answer one question. Do you know if Sennheiser or other brands have a limitation on they systems, how many receivers you can use on one transmitter? Is two the maximum when you buy a twin system or you can buy even more receivers and have same mix output on all of them. Thanks a lot!
No limit on the number of receivers. It’s a radio. Just like a commercial FM radio with way less power. Once you’re transmitting whoever wants to tune in can listen.
Excellent channel Drew! This technique also applies to IEM systems in the 2.4Ghz band?
No it does not, most of the IEM systems in the 2.4GHz band are digital, so you won't have this issue. This would be for any MPX FM IEM transmitters, which happens to be most of the UHF IEM systems.
@@DrewBrashler ah ok, that's why my xvive u4 lists 20-20k.
Love this! How would you approach this with p16 that are wired to psm300?
I already download your video.
I knew a monitor engineer trying to resolve similar dropout issues. Another audio human guessed it could be the mix clashing with the pilot tone, but the monitor engineer said the wireless systems should already have a notch filter/LPF in place after the mix but before the multiplexing, so adding filters on the output shouldn't make much difference.
Taking a quick search of wireless monitor systems, they don't seem to publish many specs of their audio frequency response. Is '25hz to 15khz' a -1dB or -10 dB measurement? Is there a LPF already applied that has any significant effect at 19khz? Could you possibly take a transfer measurement of the Sennheiser so we can see exactly what's going on at those really high frequencies?
This is my question as well. I'd love to see the frequency response in smaart.
Where he connect the iem wireless?
Thank you!
You're welcome!
New to iem do you set up the PA system volume first ie for the crowd and once the volume is correct plug in your iem ? Many thanks Keith
Is 19kHz the pilot tone for Shures as well as Sennheiser?
Any wireless iem ambient mic EQ / set up
I have an m32c(IEM) and x32c(FOH) that share an s32 stage box. can you help explain how to send my talkback to the m32c(iem) from my x32c(foh)? I can’t seem to find anything on it.
I have a couple questions: we use a x32 and for in ears have the Behringer HA8000 and Shure P3ra and transmitter. We are hearing the “pilot noise” which sounds like static. Is this video demonstrating how we can remove that?
In out put ill use 2 cables or one and that one will give sterio or ?
Does this also apply to systems that use 2.4 like Xvive?
Hi sir,
Am using an AKG inner monitor.
I can apply that same EQ to the AKG inner monitor????
Isn't a Matrix Mix for the In Ear output the better way to place the EQ?
But very interesting to fix the Problem with an EQ curve.
why?
@@funkyjkl Because you only modify your specific IEM output and not the whole mix.
wat? That is dumb.
That bus is only going to the IEM, so the EQ would only apply to that.
Great info Drew....... Thanks!
@drewbrashler This is really interesting. One thing i have encountered, as an EG player, is my tone is not representative to what i am hearing at my source. My amp tones that i am getting are phenomenal. My eq for EG is flat, sometimes a hi-cut is added to take off any fizz. I have adjusted mics, etc. We run our ears on a digico sd7 (this is used for both FOH and monitors actually) . psm 900 and i have 1964 A6-s ears. I have spent so much time trying to finesse this and get an accurate sound from what i hear from the source. Do you have any wisdom? or more questions that i can answer to help me get there. Thanks.
My tone feels thin and not full like i am getting from my amps. There is not a lot of sustain or dynamics happening.
On IEM?
This is an off-topic question. When I'm recording through the x32 into Reaper, I only have the option to record the first 8 tracks. how do I get it to record and playback all 32 channels?
Go to your X32, hit the setup button, tab over to the card, on there you will see a setting for swapping the card to be 32in/32out, I bet right now it is set to 8in/8out.
WOW! For what these microphone companies charge for their transmitters. You'd think they'd throw a 15KHz filter on the input. Sheesh! The engineers should be slapped.
As for the flood of 19KHz on the input. I suspect you're hitting the limiter on the transmitter. It HAS to have that to prevent the modulator from 'splattering'. That's when the modulation deviation exceeds channel bandwidth (100% modulation of ALL components). You'll either be outside your ~200KHz channel width or generate harmonics beyond your channel (like 3rd order harmonics greeter then -60dB) Not hard to flood the 19KHz pilot either. It is only 10% of the modulation. If they are using the same matrix modulation scheme broadcast FM uses. The other 90% is split 45% over the mono signal (L+R) on the 15KHz baseband and the 38KHz stereo component (L-R).
The ~35Hz limit is there to prevent the Automatic Frequency Control circuit from acting as if the carrier has drifted off center frequency and either shutting down or dragging the center frequency back to center and causing the modulation to go wrong.
This is from someone who knows a little more about RF then an audio engineer. Having spent some study in broadcast engineering back in the early 80s when I had to take an FCC test for. And a licensed ham radio operator.
Next chance I get I'll have to see of our PSM300 does this while looking at the signal with my SDR.
They do put the filter on the input! But if we excite the frequency with an EQ boost, then it is our fault! hah.
As you could see the levels I was sending with the 19KHz tone, I was nowhere near the limiter or clip level of my board or the transmitter as far as audio level goes.
But great points on the RF stuff! I'm also a fellow ham, KD7QCU! 73!
Nice to find fellow hams nerding out about this, haha. I likewise suspect this is caused by limiting rather than pilot tone issues though, at least on modern systems... the transmitter input was definitely overloaded per its meters, and the dropouts only seemed to happen after that point. My guess is that many (most?) IEM transmitters these days do all their companding and MPX modulation in DSP -- the PSM300 for example advertises "24-bit digital audio", and it's definitely not digital over the air -- and they probably do have a nice *digital* brickwall filter at 15 kHz to protect the pilot tone. Of course, that only helps if the digitized signal isn't clipping, and it doesn't seem like they have particularly steep analog filters to roll off the highs before they hit the digital world (the antialiasing filters can be pretty gentle if they're using delta-sigma ADCs). All of this seemingly leaves the system vulnerable to overloading even on frequencies it never intends to transmit. The advice would be similar if this is indeed the case though: just cut out the irrelevant stuff above 15 kHz using some combination of low-pass/peaking/GEQ filtering before the signal reaches the transmitter, and ideally throw a limiter on the output to retain control over what limiting sounds like when it does inevitably happen =)
(One experiment you might try by the way: sweep the frequency of the sine wave around. My suspicion is that you'd see the same behavior with *any* sine wave at the same level regardless of frequency -- even ones below 15 kHz -- but I could be wrong!)
@@masegado I plan to run a audio sweep on ours and also run my SDR and look at the output of the transmitter and see what I see. I assume the transmitter is using 50 microsecond pre-emphasis. Since they are doing everything else broadcast stereo. I should be able to see that on the SDR. I'll post my findings.
I'll say this much for the PSM300. They have the mute tight enough that it mutes way before you hear a loud hash in the earphones. Which is a good thing!
@@glynnetolar4423 We're using PSM300s as well - will look forward to seeing the results! Wonder if I should just bite the bullet and get myself an SDR for troubleshooting RF issues...
A workbench tutorial would be epic
Adding that to the list to update my video. Have you checked out these two yet?
- czcams.com/video/UxQAZAVgJ_8/video.html
- czcams.com/video/zRZlMMpxBvU/video.html
@@DrewBrashler wow this is amazing! Thank you!
You're welcome!
Does this apply to like the xVive 2.4ghz IEM system and others that use 2.4ghz?
No it does not! The 2.4GHz stuff uses digital transmission. This would be for any transmitter that uses Stereo MPX or MPX transmission. I know there are a few in the 900MHz range on Amazon. But the XVive stuff, this would not apply to. Great question!
Absolutely! Thanks for watching!
I'm not a hundred percent following this idea, you say that a test tone is transmitted at 19k so that the receivers can mute, but you also said that there's no point in transmitting anything above 15K because the transmitters can't receive any signals above that. How can the belt pack receiver get the test tone at 19k if they can't receive anything above 15k.
He poorly worded it. But the 15KHz limit is on the final audio section of the receiver. At the IF stage of the receiver it can hear ALL the 100KHz of it's signal and detect the 19KHz and the 38KHz stereo portion.
@@glynnetolar4423 thank you for explaining.
👍
How about a video on how to set up a x32 rack as a stage box if for example your S16 dies. Not a monitor mix box.
i can't hear anything over 18khz anyways haha ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
HAH I thought you guys would like that one!
This is in fact absolute bullock of course
19 kHz is not in the middle of our frequency spectrum I don’t know where you’re getting your information from. We are 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz and that’s not even close to what people actually hear and depending on the volume so what you’re saying is completely utterly wrong, so try again
Thanks for your comment @buddytheelvisofdogs. However, 19 kHz is the same thing as 19,000 Hz. Which does fall into the 20 Hz - 20 kHz you mention.
@@DrewBrashler so u think its the middle
@@DrewBrashler the middle would br 10khz
@@DrewBrashler no one hears 19 kHz
@@DrewBrashler u are a fool
no one hears 19khz after the age of 12.
Is this pilot tone, some of the reason that my in ears (carvin em 900) is hitting the limiter on some of the peaks? Like, the transients of the rack/ floor Tom.. think stick attack.. or maybe a rim shot on a snare?