I agree with you. I still have a NAD 3020 in my collection that I bought in the early 80's for about $200. It has put many separates, costing much more, to shame. I also have Altec Valencia speakers. With their high efficiency, I don't need much power to drive them. I am currently using a SET tube amp that I built using 6B4G tubes. It puts out about 3 watts per channel and really make the Altecs sing!
Harvey "Gizmo" Rosenberg, who was disciple of and went on to found New York Audio Lab. I bought his all tube phono stage with outboard power supply exceptional sound.Also had his NCP1 LINE STAGE.My buddy had a OTL Futterman on his Khorns it had bass you could feel the air it moved.Yes it happened to me synergy!
The WE 91E really skimps when it comes to output transformers, they are TINY!! Core size is KING when it comes to single ended tube amps. They can have incredible bass if you have large and well designed transformers. A proper 300B is a BASS MONSTER in the SE amp world.
Exactly the confirmation I needed for what I've learned. The VAC integration sounds impressive, but I'm actively exploring other options (aside from the 300B) for a secondary listening/theater space. I'd appreciate any suggestions you or others might have.
Thank you for your answer! I listen to different music. But my preferences are similar to yours. There are so many amplifiers on the market. How is it possible to find a right amp?
I bought my VAC tube amp & ARC LS15 tube pre amp back in 1995 and still going strong Could I do better?? Sure, but to this day when I listen to my stereo rig I can't get the smile off my face
There are some killer integrated amps. I am playing my Luxman L100 more recently. It has speed detail and clarity ...50 year old design. Also I like my vintage Rotel gear. First serous amp I had at school RA1210...still have it. It was a big jump from my Pioneer SA7300...my first hifi amp I got as a teenager. My first hifi show I was treated to the Duntech Sovereign powered by the Krell KAS mono amps ...over $40 early 90s....mind blown. Today I'm an Altec Jbl and EV man. Also I heard active ATC speakers at full power in a small hotel room. Again a memorable moment in time. I'm a fan of speed and dynamics with loads of midrange detail. I lusted after cd but I kept all my records. Today I mainly play cd as much as I enjoy my records when I have hours to spare. Cables are a whole new level of discussion. They matter and tune systems but I don't obsess. Hegel and Accuphase and others make some very high end integrated amps.
Well, I think it is more about design competence than separates versus integrated - Audio Note Integrated amps will beat most other companies' separates because Audio Note uses extremely high-quality transformers, caps, wires, resistors, and cables (they make virtually everything in-house) AN Japan and AN UK. Moreover, some, myself included, feel the best topology is the Singled Ended Triode (SET) so there is an advantage to the design being the most naturally linear amplifying device without crossover distortion etc. It comes with downsides like a lack of power so one must choose a reasonably sensitive speaker to get the amp to perform their best. But it should be noted that the Ongaku (AN UK or KONDO AN Japan version) are integrated amps - but both brands offer higher level separate versions of the integrated amp. They come in preamp and power amp and monoblock power amp versions but these will set you back 6 figures and it doesn't start with a 1 - or - 2. Kondo was always way out of reach for most people - AN UK made the products that were possible to afford - they make 2 less expensive versions of the Ongaku in the Tomei and the Jinro - these two integrated amps are identical in design to the Ongaku but made with copper wound transformers (Jninro) and Copper/Silver blend (Tomei) whereas the Ongaku is all 99.99%, Silver Litz. The Jinro is a little over $30k - the Tomeis is around $60k and the Ongaku is $130k or so.
Trouble with separates is second guessing your cables, $100 or $500 it goes on and on. Give me a well made Intergraded any day, just like my Luxman Class A 590. After 50 years in this game finally found my Holy Grail. 🤓
Agree wholeheartedly, having said that, many tube amplifiers, the Ongaku included I believe, are two stages only, i.e. driver and power tubes, no preamp section, so this effectively makes many so-called "integrated" amps what I refer to as power amps with input attenuator. One of my favorite integrated amplifiers ever is an integrated, the Amplifon SET42 Special Edition, a single-ended GM70 amplifier (driver stage 6N6P, preamp stage EC86). I've never thought it logical that separates would by definition sound better than an integrated, as far as I'm concerned, an amp may be well-designed (or not) either way.
In 2019 attended an Audio Note demo at Stassen Hifi and heared a level 2 system (AN-J LX Hemp AN-E SPE + ISIS Cable, OTO Phono SE Sig, DAC2 Sig, CDT-2) outperform a level 5 system (AN-E Sec Signature (SOGON bekabeling, Externe Crossover, M8 Pre Amp, 2x Ginrei 211 PSE, DAC5, CDT5). Although I also think the different room acoustics played a big part in it. On the first demo day, the Level 5 system, due to its weight, was playing downstairs in a small listening room and the Level 2 was playing upstairs in a large room with way better acoustics. On the second dag they wisely decided to move the more expensive Level 5 system upstairs. Unfortunate enough I wasn't there at the second day, but I still to date remember the great Level 2 listening session.
As a proponent of both integrated amps and mini-monitors ( by choice ) I’ve had my share of separates between 1980-1993, but since then my systems were built around integrated amps period.
100% I stopped using separates after refurbishing an old Marantz integrated with a tube phono pre going into it and somewhat high sensitivity (95dB or so) speakers.
i totally agree with you. integrated Amps have come a long way. my experience with them was/is rather positive. i had audition an integrated Accuphase Amp that sounded far better than "more expensive" separate gears .. i believe that more expensive does not equal better quality sound...IMO of course. thank you . great episode
Frankley I have achieved my perfect system. My only interest from start to finish was to have nothing stand in the way of my Prima Luna Integrated amp. In my opinion my choice of valves is now the only thing that defines my sound. This is where I would be very grateful for advice; Prima Luna list an extensive array of useable valve types . I am looking for a single ended valve amp to partner with it in 'Tube rolling', I want to hear what "Single Ended Beauty" means and be able to try valves without always having to commit to "Matched Quad sets" in the P.L. As I trust the pre amp capabilities of my RME ADI 2 DAC,(They are verry proud of it) either an integrated or power amp only suggestion be great? My real problem though is I am a music lover that does not understand electronics. What am I looking for ? class A or for practical/domestic reasons my preferd class A/B? Do any single ended amp's give me the ability to try say a KT 120 or an EL34 or is that expecting too much? If they can potentially handle a variety of power tubes does that depend on the valve types you use as capacitor valves or/and those you use as rectifiers (P2)? I read specs' ,I watch reviews and go to manufacturers web pages and I still have not found answers to these most basic questions. Thanks in advance if someone can help.
I have been thinking about the prima luna 400 integrated with a some klipsch la scala or some other horn speakers. Maybe not as nice as the Western Electric but I think would be pretty balanced top to bottom and hopefully still give me the Feel's you are talking about.
I like those added hand made wood bases for dampening of vibrations. Do you use any type of special rubber feet for that? As long as you go to the effort to make them, it would be worth finding extra quality feet.
I totally agree on how both 300B’s | EL34’s lack bass impact……., but please look into integrated amps using EL84’s | 2A3’s | 45’s, they’re just more linear overall, with better snap and attack of notes.
you may be confusing completely different designs (SET triode vs. P-P UL) and output tubes with integrated vs. separates. Have owned both. might be interesting to try that SET amp driven by the CJ preamp.
I started out with a Lafayette integrated tube amp in the 60's that wasn't bad back then. After getting out of the armyI had a st-70 with a pat-3 preamp (both kits) in the 70's and for that time and place it was pretty good for the price. Those amps did very well for those of us that could not afford audio research. These days Im using a Rogue rp5 preamp with a heavily modded DH220 amp (new driver boards). and to me that sounds very good. I gave up on tube power amps when the output tubes became so pricey. I listen to both digital (ps audio Directstream II0 and records Technics 1200gr (Ortofon Bronze cart), I had a Rega RPP3 that needs new tonearm bearings but I'd have to buy a new arm and I was not willing to pay $700 for a new arm. I don't listen to things like the BAT because I just can't justify the cash.
I have Bell 4240 which is the same era like Lafyette. After my few years investigations and correcting accuracy of elements It sounds marvelous, specially on reason that I designed, build and tuned to that integrated very special speakers. . In 60 ties Bell was free not match capcitors and resistors as accurate as today. Some varied 5-10% . I wanted by my ear requirements max 1% and had to i fight for it. . Now it sounds perfect. One of problems in 60ties were turmntables with piezo electric pickups - it was most popular and integrated had to serve them. That required perfect shelding in input wiring and in input selector and resulted in slight filtering in top sopranos in tube gear from 60ties. . Even sopranos are perfect but general flat tonality cannot be achieved That is only problem which I discovered in my Bell. Producers could make today better gear if ustomers would not judge everything on basic that they do not understand and prey only to that what is populary top priced, even still it has not defined impact on sounding . Example power 2x15W is even much too big for speakers max 5W and listening on level 2x1W. but how many customers will find it best choice when populary 2x 250W is blessed for it's hugh margin of power? After somebody want to hear top sounding? if we need to construct to that speakers with lets say 100 W power? I did for me ( in my DIY tube SE max power 2,5W ingergated) soultion which would be instantly rejected by audio professionals, but if it works for my room sounding I do not care. I do not wish for bigger let's say 3W power 😉
@@Mikexception Our hobby is bery personal, what appeals to me may not suit you - to each his own. We were pretty tight when I was young and lived in the projects. Our clothes were hanf me downs so there wasn't any money for extra's. Earlu on I learned folks woulg throw out all manor of things when moving out so strted so selectively trash pick. Trash nite would find me trolling the streets with a rusty old wagon to haul the loot home with. One night I happened upon a early 1950's Zenith console radio with a tilt out phono. Whev I got it into the cellar it was apparent the power transformer was shot so took one I had removed from a similar hulk and got her going, that 10" speaker was music to my ears. The tilt out phone had a Zenith variable reluctance cobra pick in it, those modulated the FM IF and ran it through the demodulator to get sound. It worked but didn't sound all that good. The needle was shot and there was a lot noise that seemed ro be FM noise so I had my doubts about the cartridge itself. The cost of a new cartridge was almost $40 - an impossible sum in those days.My solution was to fit another turntable I had scavenged into that old beast and use a switch to feed it into the volume control - sounded a lot better.
It's difficult to answer this question, because it depends on so many things. What kind of music do you like to listen to? Will your audio system be installed in a large room or a small one? Do you like to listen at high or moderate volume? What sound results do you expect from your hi-fi system? What are the three most important sound elements for you? For example, for me, these are 1) the reproduction of the human voice, which should be as natural and moving as possible, 2) accurate, non-aggressive acoustic instrument timbres, and 3) a broad and, above all, deep 3D sound image. The best answer I can give you is to find out exactly what sound result you want to achieve, and then look for the amplifier that can best help you achieve it.
The more impressive system consisting with more blocks and connections and conversions the more is impossible to have cool opinion about eventual shortages which always need be considered. Integrated look sipmler so many look deeply for their shortages like interference through supply and short dictances which for me is over sensitivity But integrates have serious and ubeatable advantage - they do not use interconnects, plugs, sockets and impact od cabling is not occuring . If user wants to eq system with spacial sounding interconnects it may be disadvantage but it costs much in compare to other ideas.
Separates give you flexibility, t i wanted to update my av features, upgrading to a Marantz AV7005 gave me the features I wanted for a reasonable price.
I agree with you. I still have a NAD 3020 in my collection that I bought in the early 80's for about $200. It has put many separates, costing much more, to shame.
I also have Altec Valencia speakers. With their high efficiency, I don't need much power to drive them. I am currently using a SET tube amp that I built using 6B4G tubes. It puts out about 3 watts per channel and really make the Altecs sing!
Harvey "Gizmo" Rosenberg, who was disciple of and went on to found New York Audio Lab. I bought his all tube phono stage with outboard power supply exceptional sound.Also had his NCP1 LINE STAGE.My buddy had a OTL Futterman on his Khorns it had bass you could feel the air it moved.Yes it happened to me synergy!
Can't believe Dr Novak is also an audiophile! Small world.
Hi, where can I get/ by this wallpaper "wooden sculpture"?. Very nice
The WE 91E really skimps when it comes to output transformers, they are TINY!! Core size is KING when it comes to single ended tube amps. They can have incredible bass if you have large and well designed transformers. A proper 300B is a BASS MONSTER in the SE amp world.
Exactly the confirmation I needed for what I've learned. The VAC integration sounds impressive, but I'm actively exploring other options (aside from the 300B) for a secondary listening/theater space. I'd appreciate any suggestions you or others might have.
Myself and others had and share the same experience.......
Very nice upload and truthfull....
The brunoco 6l6 integrated tube amp from Korea is build using altec a7 when voicing it. Should fit well with u altec horn
Thank you for your answer! I listen to different music. But my preferences are similar to yours. There are so many amplifiers on the market. How is it possible to find a right amp?
I bought my VAC tube amp & ARC LS15 tube pre amp back in 1995 and still going strong Could I do better?? Sure, but to this day when I listen to my stereo rig I can't get the smile off my face
There are some killer integrated amps. I am playing my Luxman L100 more recently. It has speed detail and clarity ...50 year old design. Also I like my vintage Rotel gear. First serous amp I had at school RA1210...still have it. It was a big jump from my Pioneer SA7300...my first hifi amp I got as a teenager. My first hifi show I was treated to the Duntech Sovereign powered by the Krell KAS mono amps ...over $40 early 90s....mind blown. Today I'm an Altec Jbl and EV man. Also I heard active ATC speakers at full power in a small hotel room. Again a memorable moment in time. I'm a fan of speed and dynamics with loads of midrange detail. I lusted after cd but I kept all my records. Today I mainly play cd as much as I enjoy my records when I have hours to spare. Cables are a whole new level of discussion. They matter and tune systems but I don't obsess. Hegel and Accuphase and others make some very high end integrated amps.
U R Correct integrated is a great path 100💯
Well, I think it is more about design competence than separates versus integrated - Audio Note Integrated amps will beat most other companies' separates because Audio Note uses extremely high-quality transformers, caps, wires, resistors, and cables (they make virtually everything in-house) AN Japan and AN UK. Moreover, some, myself included, feel the best topology is the Singled Ended Triode (SET) so there is an advantage to the design being the most naturally linear amplifying device without crossover distortion etc. It comes with downsides like a lack of power so one must choose a reasonably sensitive speaker to get the amp to perform their best.
But it should be noted that the Ongaku (AN UK or KONDO AN Japan version) are integrated amps - but both brands offer higher level separate versions of the integrated amp. They come in preamp and power amp and monoblock power amp versions but these will set you back 6 figures and it doesn't start with a 1 - or - 2. Kondo was always way out of reach for most people - AN UK made the products that were possible to afford - they make 2 less expensive versions of the Ongaku in the Tomei and the Jinro - these two integrated amps are identical in design to the Ongaku but made with copper wound transformers (Jninro) and Copper/Silver blend (Tomei) whereas the Ongaku is all 99.99%, Silver Litz. The Jinro is a little over $30k - the Tomeis is around $60k and the Ongaku is $130k or so.
About the 300b lacking bass , could an active subwoofer compensate for the missing bass ?
Trouble with separates is second guessing your cables, $100 or $500 it goes on and on. Give me a well made Intergraded any day, just like my Luxman Class A 590.
After 50 years in this game finally found my Holy Grail. 🤓
You're right 👍
Agree wholeheartedly, having said that, many tube amplifiers, the Ongaku included I believe, are two stages only, i.e. driver and power tubes, no preamp section, so this effectively makes many so-called "integrated" amps what I refer to as power amps with input attenuator. One of my favorite integrated amplifiers ever is an integrated, the Amplifon SET42 Special Edition, a single-ended GM70 amplifier (driver stage 6N6P, preamp stage EC86). I've never thought it logical that separates would by definition sound better than an integrated, as far as I'm concerned, an amp may be well-designed (or not) either way.
In 2019 attended an Audio Note demo at Stassen Hifi and heared a level 2 system (AN-J LX Hemp AN-E SPE + ISIS Cable, OTO Phono SE Sig, DAC2 Sig, CDT-2)
outperform a level 5 system (AN-E Sec Signature (SOGON bekabeling, Externe Crossover, M8 Pre Amp, 2x Ginrei 211 PSE, DAC5, CDT5).
Although I also think the different room acoustics played a big part in it. On the first demo day, the Level 5 system, due to its weight, was playing downstairs in a small listening room and the Level 2 was playing upstairs in a large room with way better acoustics. On the second dag they wisely decided to move the more expensive Level 5 system upstairs. Unfortunate enough I wasn't there at the second day, but I still to date remember the great Level 2 listening session.
Ken Songer S1x matched
Western Electric 91E amp
At Costa Mesa this year 😊
As a proponent of both integrated amps and mini-monitors ( by choice ) I’ve had my share of separates between 1980-1993, but since then my systems were built around integrated amps period.
100% I stopped using separates after refurbishing an old Marantz integrated with a tube phono pre going into it and somewhat high sensitivity (95dB or so) speakers.
🤘🍻👋
i totally agree with you.
integrated Amps have come a long way. my experience with them was/is rather positive. i had audition an integrated Accuphase Amp that sounded far better than "more expensive" separate gears .. i believe that more expensive does not equal better quality sound...IMO of course. thank you . great episode
Listening from Toronto..and having having some knowledge dropped on me 👍
Separates have more potential. Also, you can go active with a separate preamp.
Frankley I have achieved my perfect system. My only interest from start to finish was to have nothing stand in the way of my Prima Luna Integrated amp. In my opinion my choice of valves is now the only thing that defines my sound.
This is where I would be very grateful for advice; Prima Luna list an extensive array of useable valve types . I am looking for a single ended valve amp to partner with it in 'Tube rolling', I want to hear what "Single Ended Beauty" means and be able to try valves without always having to commit to "Matched Quad sets" in the P.L. As I trust the pre amp capabilities of my RME ADI 2 DAC,(They are verry proud of it) either an integrated or power amp only suggestion be great?
My real problem though is I am a music lover that does not understand electronics.
What am I looking for ? class A or for practical/domestic reasons my preferd class A/B?
Do any single ended amp's give me the ability to try say a KT 120 or an EL34 or is that expecting too much? If they can potentially handle a variety of power tubes does that depend on the valve types you use as capacitor valves or/and those you use as rectifiers (P2)?
I read specs' ,I watch reviews and go to manufacturers web pages and I still have not found answers to these most basic questions.
Thanks in advance if someone can help.
I just bought NAD separates to replace my McIntosh integrated so I’m looking forward to the comparison.
I have been thinking about the prima luna 400 integrated with a some klipsch la scala or some other horn speakers. Maybe not as nice as the Western Electric but I think would be pretty balanced top to bottom and hopefully still give me the Feel's you are talking about.
I may suggest the 300 it’s more than adequate and in long run, more cost effective to feed a tube fetish if that’s your thing.
I like those added hand made wood bases for dampening of vibrations. Do you use any type of special rubber feet for that? As long as you go to the effort to make them, it would be worth finding extra quality feet.
I totally agree on how both 300B’s | EL34’s lack bass impact……., but please look into integrated amps using EL84’s | 2A3’s | 45’s, they’re just more linear overall, with better snap and attack of notes.
Separates complicate your setup. That's why active loudspeakers are becoming more and more popular.
Could also be that those 3 tube amps were SET? the sound is nirvana vs PP tube amps regardless integrated or not
you may be confusing completely different designs (SET triode vs. P-P UL) and output tubes with integrated vs. separates. Have owned both. might be interesting to try that SET amp driven by the CJ preamp.
Nothing wrong with inegrated amps - some of them can easily put combos to shame. Try Sugden or Lavardin for starters.
I started out with a Lafayette integrated tube amp in the 60's that wasn't bad back then. After getting out of the armyI had a st-70 with a pat-3 preamp (both kits) in the 70's and for that time and place it was pretty good for the price. Those amps did very well for those of us that could not afford audio research.
These days Im using a Rogue rp5 preamp with a heavily modded DH220 amp (new driver boards). and to me that sounds very good. I gave up on tube power amps when the output tubes became so pricey.
I listen to both digital (ps audio Directstream II0 and records Technics 1200gr (Ortofon Bronze cart), I had a Rega RPP3 that needs new tonearm bearings but I'd have to buy a new arm and I was not willing to pay $700 for a new arm.
I don't listen to things like the BAT because I just can't justify the cash.
I have Bell 4240 which is the same era like Lafyette. After my few years investigations and correcting accuracy of elements It sounds marvelous, specially on reason that I designed, build and tuned to that integrated very special speakers. .
In 60 ties Bell was free not match capcitors and resistors as accurate as today. Some varied 5-10% . I wanted by my ear requirements max 1% and had to i fight for it. . Now it sounds perfect.
One of problems in 60ties were turmntables with piezo electric pickups - it was most popular and integrated had to serve them. That required perfect shelding in input wiring and in input selector and resulted in slight filtering in top sopranos in tube gear from 60ties. . Even sopranos are perfect but general flat tonality cannot be achieved That is only problem which I discovered in my Bell.
Producers could make today better gear if ustomers would not judge everything on basic that they do not understand and prey only to that what is populary top priced, even still it has not defined impact on sounding . Example power 2x15W is even much too big for speakers max 5W and listening on level 2x1W. but how many customers will find it best choice when populary 2x 250W is blessed for it's hugh margin of power? After somebody want to hear top sounding? if we need to construct to that speakers with lets say 100 W power?
I did for me ( in my DIY tube SE max power 2,5W ingergated) soultion which would be instantly rejected by audio professionals, but if it works for my room sounding I do not care. I do not wish for bigger let's say 3W power 😉
@@Mikexception Our hobby is bery personal, what appeals to me may not suit you - to each his own.
We were pretty tight when I was young and lived in the projects. Our clothes were hanf me downs so there wasn't any money for extra's. Earlu on I learned folks woulg throw out all manor of things when moving out so strted so selectively trash pick. Trash nite would find me trolling the streets with a rusty old wagon to haul the loot home with.
One night I happened upon a early 1950's Zenith console radio with a tilt out phono. Whev I got it into the cellar it was apparent the power transformer was shot so took one I had removed from a similar hulk and got her going, that 10" speaker was music to my ears. The tilt out phone had a Zenith variable reluctance cobra pick in it, those modulated the FM IF and ran it through the demodulator to get sound. It worked but didn't sound all that good. The needle was shot and there was a lot noise that seemed ro be FM noise so I had my doubts about the cartridge itself.
The cost of a new cartridge was almost $40 - an impossible sum in those days.My solution was to fit another turntable I had scavenged into that old beast and use a switch to feed it into the volume control - sounded a lot better.
Which integrated amps under $4000 can you recommend today?
It's difficult to answer this question, because it depends on so many things. What kind of music do you like to listen to? Will your audio system be installed in a large room or a small one? Do you like to listen at high or moderate volume? What sound results do you expect from your hi-fi system? What are the three most important sound elements for you? For example, for me, these are 1) the reproduction of the human voice, which should be as natural and moving as possible, 2) accurate, non-aggressive acoustic instrument timbres, and 3) a broad and, above all, deep 3D sound image. The best answer I can give you is to find out exactly what sound result you want to achieve, and then look for the amplifier that can best help you achieve it.
Yep, it happens all the time the particular item is always a real instrument. Lol
See, it is always a problem coming to generell conclusion from three experience. But still, I enjoyed your talk.
The more impressive system consisting with more blocks and connections and conversions the more is impossible to have cool opinion about eventual shortages which always need be considered.
Integrated look sipmler so many look deeply for their shortages like interference through supply and short dictances which for me is over sensitivity But integrates have serious and ubeatable advantage - they do not use interconnects, plugs, sockets and impact od cabling is not occuring . If user wants to eq system with spacial sounding interconnects it may be disadvantage but it costs much in compare to other ideas.
Once more common sense.
This hobby is about listening to music, not listening to gear. As I feared, within seconds, rattling off brands and model numbers, just as I feared.
Awe come on, we love the gear too. You came here for the gear not the music he’s playing or not playing. It’s called “ trolling “ .
"Brewmeister" is pronounced... 😂... 'Burmester'!
Western Electric has high distortion levels. Probably makes it sweet for that reason.
Separates give you flexibility, t i wanted to update my av features, upgrading to a Marantz AV7005 gave me the features I wanted for a reasonable price.