Primaris Traitor Legion Successors: Should Games Workshop Keep Them A Mystery?
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- čas přidán 8. 10. 2017
- Dear God trying to find a title that works for this video was not easy. Anyway, successor chapters using traitor geneseed. Should we be told? Should we be left to speculate? Should Games Workshop state this stuff outright, or let us work it out ourselves? What do you prefer? Let me know in the comments!
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"this silence offends slaanesh!"
"Your noise offends the Emperor."
He's trying to nap, damn it.
Sons of The Phoenix:"This silence offends the Emperor!"
Would be kinda cool to have loyalist Primaris Emperor children lead by the clone fulgrim against Slaneesh Fulgrim and the corrupted firstborn.
I would prefer for GW to say that traitor gene seed definitely has been used to make new primaris chapters but not to specify which chapters have traitor gene seed. Leaves things open for speculation and for people to design their own chapters.
This! I love the idea, always have. And it looks great on those primaris~
Yeah definitely, then it becomes a confirmed mystery as well
Horus gene seed Primaris,
The White Legion xp
So Dark Angels geneseed was used then
Agreed entirely!
Wouldn't the Blood Ravens count as exactly this? The theory is they are actually descended from the Thousand Sons
Very late to reply to this, but it's not about using the gene-seed from a chapter rumored to be successors of a Traitor Legion, it's about taking the gene-seed of the Traitor Legion that's stored in a special vault on Terra and using that to create a Primaris marine. The Ravens' seed might have been tinkered with - here you'd be working with the pure material taken from Magnus The Red.
@@sofija1996 well, the blood ravens did receive primaris marines so they could also count for this too🤷♂️
The geneseed makes no difference, traitors and loyalists have come from both sets. I think what Cawl is doing is making the distinction that the geneseed does not make a difference its the leadership that either makes an Astartes a Loyalist or a Traitor.
Bananaskin101 that's dangerous talk. Report to your commissar or chaplain for reeducation
Yep. He pretty much says the same thing to Guilliman in the Dark Imperium book.
Indeed, Cawl outright tells Guilliman that some of his own sons have gone traitor. Cawl believes the fault lies in the primarchs they followed not the geneseed.
Bananaskin101 Gulliman still forbid him to use traitor geneseed, but Cawl didn't gave a fuck beacause he used the one of the misding legions instead. He also used custodes geneseed beacause the normal space marine geneseed was too complex. Basically your average Ad-Mech fuckery that usually gets censored, but Cawl seized guilliman's task as an opportunity to spread his eccentricity across the whole imperium.
Hence Guilliman does not fully liked how the primaris turned out.
ragelion The primarchs they followed, and the circumstances that befell them. Several Marines were tightly knit into their primarch's Legion, but still refused to turn traitor alongside their brothers.
Traitor gene seed (or at least chimeric) loyalists have been in the lore for years. Minotaurs, Silver Skulls, Red Scorpions, Blood Ravens, Charcharodons are just some of those chapters that have been alluded to come totally or partially from traitor gene stock. There's a good amount of players who play those chapters, and they may want Primaris too. Why lock them out?
Very much this. One of my favorite 40k theories is that the space sharks is that they descended from shattered legion type group involving loyalist night lords being babysat by a cadre of raven guard. After all, they've got all the visible mutations associated with curze's geneseed, and to me at least, 'predation fleets' absolutely screams 'terror tactics'. That being said, it'd take all the mystery foe gw to come out and confirm that that's the case.
space sharks might be sons of the night haunter?!?! might actually do my first space marine army in years of playing.
Partially only. Predominantly Raven Guard, but some Night Lords in there for good measure.
the problem is not using for example Blood Ravens geneseed to create Blood Ravens primaris. Context here is outright using TS geneseed to create primaris.
Alluded is a key word in that though.
I like the mystery but at the same time I don't want that mystery to last 20+ years till GW gets around to updating the background or forgetting about it altogether.
Mind those sons of the phoenix do look rather adorable.... They could well be sons of dorn 😉
ADORNABLE
Yes.
They look awesome. I made a homebrew chapter called sons of morrigon. Meant to be Scottish/gaelic. Painted one of them. More yet to come.
We can only judge that if we see a Centurion, though.
Papa Smurf! You.... ARE NOT THE DADDY!
CAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWL!!!
CAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWL!!!
Waddup Fool.
Fuck are you yelling for papa smurf
Cawl: Whoop whoop whoop whoop,
(or more like) 01010111 01101000 01101111 01101111 01110000 00100000 01110111 01101000 01101111 01101111 01110000 00100000 01110111 01101000 01101111 01101111 01110000 00100000 01110111 01101000 01101111 01101111 01110000 00001101 00001010
Them mecanicus boys were at it again.
I hope they are using traitor Primarch geneseeds. Something about the Primaris having those, but fighting for the Imperium seems satisfying. I'm just imagining Mortarium Geneseed Primaris fighting the old Death Guard, Magnus Geneseed Primaris fighting the old Thousand Sons, Angron Geneseed Primaris fighting the old War Hounds/World Eaters, etc. Could they be swayed? Who knows. They seem to be secretly/openly rejected by most legions, even ones accepting their help. At some point, that is going to take its toll on them and they might defect, but that could be any Primaris. But I can see the disguised traitor legion geneseed Primaris having trouble fitting in with other legions they are put under.
On a side note, my "Deathwatch" Marines will openly have the traitor legion symbols on their shoulderpads. Primaris and original Space Marines. They remained loyal and are going to be openly show that they weren't swayed and fought against their fathers and brothers. Is it fluffy though? Heeeeeell no.
I think more to the point, having this shows that the lore isn't perfectly black and white. Especially when it comes to the Chaos Gods, those Chaos legions are boring as all hell. The idea that a World Eaters army is absolutely nothing but Khorne Berzerkers (no tanks, no bikes, not terminators) or that an Emperor's Children army is nothing more than Noise Marines is super boring. Hinting that their geneseed has been used elsewhere shows that the Chaos Gods and the traitor legions aren't just one-trick ponies.
Make some chapters from Iron Warriors genes. They're supposedly one of the most stable and take to bionics incredibly well.
Don’t forget Night Lords. They have some of the purest gene seed around with little if any abnormalities.
Well aside from the black eyes and pale skin.
Absolutely. I’d love confirmed Loyalist Chapters from traitor Legions. Why? Because it could create a Unforgivenvfallen theme.
I’d like to have the Sons of the Phoenix Confirmed to be Fulgrims sons. Have the Cloned pure version arrive before them and they follow him into battle against the daemon Fulgrim. It would make you wonder how many other chapters did Cawl make.
An entire chapter of primaris reivers from the world eaters Gene seed would be great
hewlett260 From night lords legion
The names of these "loyalist" chapters reminds me of the names parts websites give to their parts to avoid copyright infringement.
"The hydra legion"
"The mech hands clan"
There was an excerpt from the books that states that not only are they testing the traitor legion gene seeds, but theyre also testing the 2nd and 11th...
Alex Schneider hehehehe
"The other two." He said. "That is a conversation for another day.", fingers crossed for Lady Primarchs
dandyx12 based on the work of Honsou and cypher, space marine geneseed work regardless of gender.
@@dandyx12 That has been confirmed in lore as impossible also the SoB use similar weapons to Astartes if you go with Female marines the Sisters of Silence and Sisters of Battle seem pointless and given the fact the Sisters of battle are regular humans makes them even more badass in some respects
Would a Night Lords spinoff basically be a chapter of Batmans?
I like the mystery for a while, but eventually I want to be told definitively.
Hehe, that's two videos you've made recently based on a reddit post of mine.
This one and the women in wargaming one.
You do good posts!
Links?
www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/704rud/games_workshop_agm_according_to_person_who/
and
www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/754fx1/somethings_not_quite_right_caaaaawwll/
Thanks!
It screams a bit Emperor's Children, but also some Word Bearers.
DrawnSteelHero Good point! The candles could make for a sick theme, marines that look like walking churches. Playing up the "warrior monk" angle. Melta and flame weapons, religious fervor. Chainsaws instead of chainswords. It's not Nuns with Guns, but this might be a more feasible army with a similar theme.
Those Sons of the Phoenix are actually looking pretty cool, I like that color combination.
There is also the fact that the Ultramarines Legion grew quite significantly when the two "lost" primarchs got handled.
slowly trickle out hints. it'll give Remleiz more fodder for video topics.
^This^
I would have nothing against just being told that bunch of primaris were made out of traitor legion gene seed rather than just hinting at it.
Like for example the mysterious Minotaurs are factually the successors of Iron Warriors and knowing that didn't make them any less cool.
I thought the dark angels already got primaris chapters?
Big Fingers Jefferson no those are ultramarine stock actually all successor chapters of the DA are ultramarines but are forced to say they are da
Oh, you son of a bitch!
Too soon
"Tease me with it Papa Gamesworkshop!" - Kirioth
I always think it's best to solve some mysteries, and keep others murky. Making too much stuff mysterious and ambiguous can feel like a gimmick to artificially make things seem unique, but ruining every mystery takes the fun away.
The whole "chapter descended from unknown Primarch/founding legion" thing always seems weird idea to me too, since we know genetic testing of gene-seed is a routine (and mandatory) thing in the setting. It really only works if someone's actively trying to hide something, somewhere along the chain of custody.
You are easily one of my favourite youtubers buddy :) I love your conversational vids and on the subject at hand, my own chapter are luna wolves loyalists who became black shields after surviving Isstvan 5 and becoming rebranded (also ultramarines successors of course) so it's really cool to hear about stuff like this :)
Nah I'd rather that they don't say it explicitly rather they give us some hints that could be interpreted in different ways, more entertaining to speculate that way!
They sorta did though. In 'Dark Imperium' Cawl Inferior tells Big Bobby G that the gene seed left from the pre-heresy traitor legions is stable.
Covenant of Fire are 100% Word bearers.
Got a chaplain thrown at them and went full “ayo this shit is fire, give us another”
Been watching some of your older videos since I found your channel. I think that keeping it vague is great and that your points are great. When I started playing, I knew from that get go that I wanted to make my own chapter. I play mine as a second founding chapter that was put together from the surviving loyalists of the traitor legions and have been more-less exiled to the galactic south for the last 10,000 years. Every time someone asked me about their backstory everyone thought it was super cool and unique. I really like that GW gives us that ambiguity to come up with our own stories for our own armies if we want to. Kinda the same way they used to treat the 2 missing primarchs before we knew more about them.
I think you could get the best of both worlds by letting us know that they are traitor gene seed but having them be forced to pretend they’re not. Kind of like how the Fallen work where we know what’s going on, but the Dark Angels will kill anyone they have to to keep the secret
pretty sure Guilliman said the silver skulls are a ultramarine succesor
I have been trying to create a successor chapter for dark angels and have actually been struggling with it.
After watching this video it has given me some great ideas.
So thank you and keep up the great work loving the channel
I want this to be true.
Everywhere I look Sons of the Emperor are successors of Dorn and not Fulgrim
Silver skulls being renamed secret loyalist iron warriors? If that's true then it could explain the carcarodon astra chapter, maybe they're renamed loyalist world eaters
Yes, keep them a mystery. Except the occasional reveal to create tension/conflict/a story ark we can all engage in and love (providing it is well written and paced correctly).
If they come across Prince Fulgrim then its going to come out💜
would love some more hinting on the 'missing' chapters.
What chapters? (Sweeps the missing chapters under the rug)
I still theorize that due to their color scheme and symbol the Wolfspear are a chimeric mix of space wolves and luna wolves; as it would partially explain how cawl stabilized Russ's geneseed.
By the way, I agree 100% with you on this. A little mystery does makes things more interesting.
The mystery of 40k always brings me back.
I like to think the Sons of The Phoenix are a bit of both Dorn and Fulgrim in stock. The rigid discipline and grounded attitude of the fists would be a great anchor for the peerless paragons of the emperor's children; to keep them through getting too full of themselves via blatant observations and merciless sass.
I found my old 3rd edition marines so with my new primaris I made my own chapter, Warp Stalkers, a rag tag group with survivors from all kinds of other chapters some even from the Heresy era, Primach Classified, they specifically hunt down Death Guard. They paint most their armor Black to cover their old colors and a light blue left pauldron, they are loyal although considered heretical since they fight chaos so closely and even travel into the warp to fight them. Guiliman hand delivered their primaris reinforcements to the secret chapter and fought along side them for a small time before leaving to continue his expedition across the empire.
I thought we knew he went ahead and used all available geneseed for primaris, contrary to orders....
I think the Primaris made using gene-seed from Traitor/Missing Legions were kept in stasis on Guilliman's orders, not introduced to any existing chapters or used to found a new chapter.
Just because the Primarch got corrupted or went Rouge Doesnt mean those with the pure uncorrupted gene seed have to be chaos Marines or turn bad even if you used Emperor Children gene seed to create a Primaris Chapter.
i want a Primaris Warhound/Worldeater chapter. now.
There is some mystery around the Blood Ravens as being a possible descendant of the Thousand Sons and is made more interesting when their own history was apparently deleted. Not knowing everything allows for imagination better than a full history.
To my understanding there is lore supporting the loyalists from traitor legions were brought into, and created, the grey knights. If that is accepted then gene seed origin is irrelevant. It's a question of nature over nurture or vice versa.
Cure4Living sure, as long as you make sure to mention the fallen sisters and Miraiel.
Almost just because of this video I started Sons of the Phoenix army. I had purchased Primaris "upgrades" for my Space Wolves but these just won my heart. Also Space Wolves lose bit of their identity with upgrading to primaris.
"Sons of The Phoenix" screams Emperor's Children, the Silver Skulls' symbol is VERY similar to the Iron Warriors, and the Sons of Orar's mysterious origins might suggest Alpha Legion influence.
The Space Sharks use drop pod assaults like World Eaters
I loooove this subget, gw gave a lot of this in the badab war, like how the scorpions look like they have Fulgrims gene seed and the minotaurs come from Angron (by the way you have that wrong, its not Perturabo's gene seed, its Angron's for the minotaurs) and they are fighting a traitor like huron while the astral claws who used to be a honorable loyal chapter are the ones that fall for chaos... answering to your question I prefer when they leave it in the shadows, the suspicion that the grey knights where made using Magnus's gene seed was amazing and triple fun
I like it when Cawl makes weird stuff and tells no one where he gets the stuff
I would go for a middle ground. Reveal a few but keep most a mystery. That way you can have your loyalist emperors children if you want, but theres always that "are these world eaters" for others. It gives you the nice spiritual successor to characters like Nathaniel Garro from the Death Guard or Sault Tarvitz from the Emperors Children but also allows them to play it super coy with others. Maybe a new chapter is distrusted because people whisper behind their back they are world eaters rather than a blood angels successor? I think a healthy mix gives the best story options. You know they exist for certain, but who most are remains a mystery.
I suspect listing Rogal Dorn as Primarch is partly a misdirect, but also partly a way to let you know which Chapter rule(s) to use if you field them.
I think it may be time for me to create the Omega Legion. With Guilliman as primogenitor and "For the Emperor!" as battle cry.
I agree, my home brew chapter is the dark sons. They use the rules of blood ravens but have a red and black scheme with a black blazing sun icon that looks just like the thousand sons insignia.
Plausible deniability while also leaning into the suspicion lol.
Surely tractor gene seed wouldn’t have been used in the primuris project prior to papa Smurf’s return...
REQUEST, following this idea, I would love you to take on the subget on how the gene seed affects the personality of the sucessor chapters or how do they deal with the prons and cons of it, introdicing the freaking best ever chapter ever writen (and how sad it is that it looks official that the are now oficially extinct) the freaking gooooodly Lamenters, the most badass profound and better writen chapter ever, how trying to clean the black rage they inherited a grey mood and everything that has happened to them, they have sooo much lore behind them, thy deserve at least one video from you
I reckon that the soul drinkers are loyalist emperor's children
Honestly before watching your vid i wouldve disagreed, that it'd actually would be ok to just plainly say the origins of the chapter. But after this, yeah ill give it to you. The layer of mystery (even though some are stupid obvious) actually adds alot of flavor to them. Great vid as always btw, Cheers!
I would like it if they did say, but only as the story proggresses naturally. DEFINITELY not in some kind of press release, but if it is the center of a plot in the books, it could be really cool.
Honestly, with all the stuff going on with the Cawl Inferior withholding information, giving false information, asking to be made fabricator general, but presenting it in such a way that Guilliman thinks its Cawl asking, I think its only a matter of time before more secrets get revealed, and its shown that through deliberate misinformation between them, things like this could happen.
Shock no, drama yes. Imagine this, the sons of the phoenix are called to aid the imperial fists to hold some world or another against the Emperor's children and a recently returned Prince Fulgrim. The "Fists" let loose their cry of battle expecting the "Sons" to follow suit, upon realising that the "Sons" are not preparing for war, the "Fists" turn to see an entire chapter on their knees unable to keep in mixed cries of sorrow and joy.
You're welcome GW😘
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it must be a squid 40k logic
I would love the idea that there are chapter if marines who are from the lost primarchs since their marines would only be terrain born and loyal and then shunted off to guilliman after their primarchs failures
Sons of the phoenix screams not only emperors children but word bearers as well. Also leaving it a mystery would be nice since in the codexes it is kind from the eyes of someone looking over a report not entirely accurate.
A cool one would be world eater successors that's personality resembles what they were meant to be, rather than them being bloodthirsty, because they dont have the butchers nails
i know im about 4 years too late to be adding to this discussion but this exact question is the basis for my current Kill team (and potentially third army), using Primaris marines painted in Alpha Legion colours. My head canon is that Cawl secretly created some primaris using traitor gene stock, but were utterly loyal to him, and not the emperor/imperium at large. I figured of any of the traitor legions he would most likely pick the alpha legion due to their specilization at covert ops, so he could have them do his dirty work and leave no trace behind.
I wonder what if there was an incident that causes a warp rift in the Sol System that connects the 40k universe with an alternative universe where the loyalty of the Primarchs and their Legions are switched around. I am pretty sure Cawl would get really interested with this alternate universe seeing it might be a place where he can gain uncorrupted genestock of the Astartes who in the normal universe are traitors
Really like the Idea of Keeping it mysterious. Always wanted to have a Emperors Children chapter that remained loyal to the Emperor. Thanks for sharing. ~ Will
Let's not forget a knights errant.. Garro was a death guard commander at one point :3
I like them not explicitly stating they’re traitors, obviously these guys are emperors children successors but there’s no codex for them, so they say “oh we’re imperial fists successors” and it just makes it easier finding a codex to use, i’m making a world eaters primaris chapter and they’re “a blood angels successor”, just makes gameplay easier and kinda gives a cool fluffy backstory
I like the idea of mystery marines
But I also think it could have some great stories tired to it, you could have a traitor legions hunting them down to get the gene seed as some of the traitors who have aligned the self with a God only have limited gene seed and would want more to bolster their numbers drastically
I thought there were rumors that the speculated use of traitor gene seed was being used to set up part of the next plot move forward, as the Imperium teeters towards a civil war and Chaos obtains Primaris Marines as traitor derived chapters fall to their fate and turn traitor?
makes sense for the ultramarines to take in loyalists from the traitor legions since they allegedly took in the orphaned astartes from the lost primarchs' legions
What do you think of a breakaway chapter that was labeled excommunicatus, turned out to still be loyal, yet were separated for a special occasion/reason at a later determined point by a joint op between old psykers, and time ordos, and future one that confirm a destined path from a page in a much earlier time of imperial records...leaving them unnamed, unrecorded in present to prevent a breach of spacetime beyond the precogs of emperor proportion, to ensure a specific outcome meant to be occurs, one that explains why the emperor allowed the heresy, and why it would take so long to get back on his feet...
How do you get candles on your space marines like that I love archaic look.
I mean, I run a custom chapter (Composed around Primaris) that I imagine as having inherited geneseed from The Thousand Sons, and if I were ever to make lore around them, I would absolutely make it debatable and not outright, something akin to Dark Angel levels of secrecy and clandestine mandates.
I think it'd be awesome. My homebrew chapter are loyalist Thousand Sons. Adding a few primaris to the mix would be rad
If it's kept under wraps, the most fitting gene seed would be of the 20th Legion.
When your mind fills in the blanks, it can be more exciting, and real than explicitly told or shown something.
I now want to build an army of Sons of the Phoenix.
Sons of the Pheonix kinda says Word Bearers to me. The "Spread of Imperial Creed", the bones coated or cast as bones the size of astartes limbs (possibly from fallen battle brothers) and sundry religious iconography on their unit badges just kinda says Word Bearers 2.0
i havent read through all the comments to see if this has been said.. but the bones on the shoulder and the candles/flames around make me think of legion of the damned.. especially with the phoenix name of dying and rising again
given that ive painted hellblasters with the old 30k world eater's scheme, i want them to do it
Are there any primaris chapters that use the Death Guard genesee? I kinda want to read about them, seeing how much I love the Death Guard
I like the idea that we as the reader, and maybe some in the lore know, but the chapter in question doesn't know that they are descended from a traitor legion. For example, if the Iron Warriors established a fortress world and the silver skulls were tasked with supporting Guilliman and the ultramarines in assaulting it. Their geneseed would be demanding that they do the right things to counter the Iron Warriors tactics, so there would be a lot of subconscious thought going on at the same time as they try to follow the codex strategies of Guilliman. He would also know the truth, would be keeping a VERY close eye on them as well, as their geneseed's urging's compete with their indoctrination and training
Gonna make a loyalist chapter using trailer geneseed and call it something like abaddons bane, the fluff being they use the name to taunt the black legion while they fight
I would quite like a blood ravens scenario, where they don't know where their geneseed came from
I've actually got a small custom chapter that is based off the World Eaters! However, they claim to be sons of the Gman
I like the fact in the book that Cawl asked about using the geneseed of traitors. He was told no by Guilliman but does not mean he did not do it. But I like the what if rather than them saying it right out. That way it is left up to the palyer themselves.
It makes perfect sense. The Traitor Legions use loyalist geneseed to make new marines for their side. If you can take an Imperial Fist geneseed and make a Traitor Iron Warrior then the opposite is reasonably true. Hell its in several books. The issue with the traitors was manifold. One, they were lied to, two they were also lied to by the "other side", three they had programmed weakness (subservience) to their primarch. If the primarch turned they would be predisposed to follow him. It was most noted that among the legions that turned traitor that nearly all of the loyalists were Terran and conversely all the "traitor" marines were recruited post Primarch and from the Primarch's world. Many are the books where the loyalist refer back to Terra and their oath to the Emperor. How they "stood before the Emperor and gave oath, not an oath to the Primarch". Where also the "traitors" are often noted as stating outright that they have no oath to the Emperor and that the Primarch is their first and total loyalty holder.
So, its not gene seed, it is Recruitment and Leadership that dictated who turned and who didn't. Every traitor primarch came from a world that was tainted with Chaos, yes that Includes the Dark Angels world of Caliban
This situation is different because of dark imperium novel. In the novel is suggested the idea of primaris from traitor legions, so the similarity between the sons of Phoenix and the Emperor's childrens is not a sort of easter egg (as It is for chapters like minotaurs) but is an "unsaid" confirmation of what everyone thought reading dark imperium
Knowing how these things work, in regards to the silver skulls, if an inquisitor gets too close to these secrets, they are more than likely brought in with the actual truth. There is a lot going on in the Grim Dark. For someone to really come across this info, they would have to be some form of astartes historian or by accident. Probably both.
I think its for the best if they are only implied to be from traitor stock, that makes more sence in universe, since we know papa smurf did not want Cawl to use traitor gene
Where s my Primaris Chimeric chapter between Alpha Legion and Death Guard
I actually painted my primaris marines in Luna Wolves colors to follow this one little lore bit. I sometimes have them alongside ad mech forces for fluffyness.
Also getting a lot of Word Bearers vibes
Mystery is more fun, though I agree with commenters below that a few hints here and there that support the use of traitor gene seed never hurts. Heck, even keeping the unknown legions out there on the very end of the realm of possibility is an exciting tid bit. That, however, would be totally lame if it was strongly hinted at, or heaven forbid actually confirmed.
it's already noted that he has worked with traitor geneseed. from what I understood, primaris were made from the splicing of multiple geneseeds
I though of this as soon as Primaris came out! I am so happy this could be a real thing!!
If anything, it adds to the story and adds an extra layer of depth to the new guys. It could be an experiment. To see if heresy is genetic or not. The possibility of a primaris chapter could split into a civil war if they found out their lineage.