A Baptist Case for Real Presence in the Eucharist
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- čas přidán 30. 06. 2024
- In this video I define "real presence," and argue it is the predominating historic Baptist view of the Eucharist. I also distinguish it from transubstantiation and discuss in what church contexts it occurs.
Nadya Williams' Cultural Christians In the Early Church: www.amazon.com/Cultural-Chris...
Michael Haykin book: www.amazon.com/Amidst-Our-Bel...
Thomas Watson, The Lord's Supper: www.amazon.com/Lords-Supper-P...
Richard Barcellos, The Lord's Supper As a Means of Grace: www.amazon.com/Lords-Supper-M...
Stanley Fowler, More Than a Symbol: www.amazon.com/More-than-Symb...
The Center for Baptist Renewal: www.centerforbaptistrenewal.com
Truth Unites (www.truthunites.org) exists to promote gospel assurance through theological depth.
Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) serves as senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Ojai.
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00:00 Introduction
01:40 Book Recommendation
02:49 1) Defining Real Presence
09:47 2) Historic Baptist Views
15:58 3) Spiritual Presence vs. Transubstantiation
26:06 4) Where Does Real Presence Occur? - Zábava
“People love to dismiss baptists and sometimes we deserve it…” hahah love this topic and I’d love to see more of our Baptist brothers and sisters embracing a historical real presence view!
Well, most Baptists who embrace historical Christianity and Protestantism, then become Presbyterians. That's why there aren't that many reformed Baptists.
Eh. My grandparents and my father are Baptists. My grandmother hated Catholics thought they were devil worshippers lol, kinda funny to think about. We Went to their Baptist churches as a kid once in a while. To be honest when they did what they call communion they used grape juice and there was a lack of reverence. The used it to remind themselves of Jesus the symbology of it while totally missing (which I didn’t know then) the literal part of Jesus instituted at the Last Supper. I remember seeing it was like this is a bit weird. I didn’t grow up religious my grandparents were, my brothers and I were not.
So is this now changing in the Baptist Church or is it just you hold a more traditional view of the Eucharist now personally?
@@catholicguy1073 Among Baptists, Gavin's view is rare. I would say that only 1% of Baptists hold this view. Most Baptists hold the "memorial view" which became rather a light view of the sacrament/ordinance.
It's the result of American Christianity. The freedom of religion as a law is a double-edged sword. While it can promote more tolerance, it can also breed heresies. The largest heretical cults all originated in the US.
@@catholicguy1073 I think the point Gavin is trying to make in his video is that the memorialist view of Holy Communion (which you and I both have experienced sadly) is not necessarily the traditional Baptist view though it has become more common today.
I hope that Baptists return to embracing the Reformed Spiritual Presence view. For one, as you alluded to, memorialism is just a sad & less powerful experience imo. And secondly, I do not think it is able to be defended historically.
@@my.apologies Maybe you should check out Gavin's church service and see how he does it..
In fact, being a Baptist pastor, I need to say that many Baptists believe that grape juice transubstantiates into wine.
That’s so funny!
In the serious side: what do think it will take for American Baptistic churches to reclaim wine instead of grape juice? Prohibition was a long time ago!
Now that’s funny.
😂😂
Baptist Pastors have not received the Sacrament of Holy Orders from a Bishop of Apostolic Succession - Catholic and Orthodox Pastors only. Therefore Baptist Pastors do not have the faculty to consecrate the bread and wine to become the body and blood of Jesus Christ.
bwahaha...
I feel like Gavin's work will in time move us all back towards what it is to be Christian, a unity of Faith, in Christ, with humble submission to His word and His spirit.
If our one authority for Christian teaching is scripture, then by default we have unity. Don't mistake fallible creatures getting things wrong here and there as being some kind of opposite of unity. I have unity with my wife, and we also disagree and various things.
The groups that bring DISunity are precisely those groups that elevate their convictions to equality with the gospel and scripture itself. To the point of them anathemetizing everyone else out or excomunicating them out.
What you are alluding to is not called unity, it's called conformity. Everybody must be made to bow to one single interpretation or understanding of every possible last little point where there may be a different among us. But this is not unity, this is a fairy tale.
Those that know this is a fairy tale will offer yet another solution, they offer up a wishful thinking idea that "wouldn't it be nice if we just had ONE authority to declare every truth and they couldn't be wrong about anything?" But unfortunately that has a lot of issues, none the least is that all humans are fallible and make errors. And secondly, you end up with many many groups all claiming this position of absolute power on earth to declare every truth.
In any case, in the real world, the fallen world such as it is, we have our one authority the holy scriptures, and our job is to seek unity DESPITE various tradition differences. Unity does not mean conformity.
Sometimes I think we Evangelicals in general deny the Presence of Christ at the Table so strongly that one might wonder if we think it's the only place in Creation the Godhead is absent.
Thank you, pastor. I'm looking forward to reading those books on historic baptist sacramentalism. As a memorialist Baptist who is currently on the fence about Christ's Real Presence in the Supper, at this point in my discerning I agree with you that a true Christian does not necessarily need to believe in Real Presence for Real Presence to occur in their partaking of the Lord's Supper, if it's true. My support for this is that Jesus knows precisely who His sheep are, and He is a very Good Shepherd to feed, nourish, and provide for them wherever they may be.
Check out Bishop Barron's homily on "The Real Presence". He has a couple of videos on this specific topic alone.
I absolutely recommend diving into the reasons and arguments for real presence. It opens up a beautiful new avenue through which Christ loves us and draws us closer to himself
As someone who goes to a Baptist church and works at a Baptist university, I’ve never met anyone “on the ground” who holds anything other than the memorialist view. When faced with the idea that something more like what you’re talking about is, “Historically Baptist,” their answer is more or less that it doesn’t matter; it’s rejected as a, “Tradition of men,” and most contemporary Baptists have no problem with rejecting almost anything the early reformers taught if they feel it’s too Catholic sounding. All this is to say that the caricature isn’t unfair at all in my experience.
And so my response to someone’s comment that “it’s too Catholic” is “and that’s bad?”. Good for you that you are thinking thru this!
I might be an exception but I’m a baptist pastor with this real/spiritual presence view of the Lord’s Supper. There’s at least a handful of us!
@@Apriluser I’ve been heavily researching Catholicism and Orthodoxy, and in think that’s just the right answer.
@@legacy242-47 my problem is that I also hold this position, and I’m not sure I think there’s a great way out of James with the Protestant view on justification. It doesn’t leave me with many options
Surely you don't live in Europe, if that was what you saw around you.
A purely memorialist view is the exception among all Protestants here; at least, all affirm there is a power and sonething trancendental in this Act.
As an Anglican (ex-Baptist), this is rather fascinating. I'd argue most Baptists do not view it the way you do, but its really refreshing to hear a classical Baptist understanding. I waffle between Cranmer's view and a more Anglo-Catholic understanding, but I'd agree that the mode in which Christ is present is less important than what we receive from Christ in the Eucharist.
Yay! Fellow Anglican who used to be baptist!
Dude, most Baptist have a very low view of church regardless.
I’m recently attending an Anglican Church after discovering in scripture that the lords supper was far more important then what I was initially led to believe in my Pentecostal church growing up. The verse that made me question the view I was raised with was
1 Corinthians 11:27. I was raised with the view that it’s only done in memorial.
Another Anglican here who grew up Pentecostal along with my husband, and now we are Anglican and he is our priest. Love taking the Eucharist!
@@joechillstudios its remembrance but also a very serious action of the regenerate.
Didache 9.1 - (AD 100) Now, concerning the Eucharist, practice it as follows. " First, concerning the cup: We give thanks to you, our Father, for the holy vine of David your son, which you made known to us through Jesus your son, glory to you forever a Next, concerning the broken bread: We give thanks to you, our Father, for the life and knowledge which you made known to us through Jesus your son, glory to you forever b4 Just as this broken bread was being scattered over the mountains and being brought together it became one; likewise bring together your church from the ends of the earth into your kingdom, so that yours is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ forever cs But none shall eat or shall drink from your Eucharist but those baptized in the name of the Lord; for also concerning this the Lord has said,
"Do give not what is holy to the dogs."
The Didache (AD 100): “On the Lord’s day assemble and break bread and give thanks, having first confessed your sins, that your sacrifice may be pure. If any have a dispute with his fellow, let him not come to the assembly till they be reconciled, that your sacrifice be not polluted. For this is the sacrifice spoken of by the Lord; ‘In every place and at every time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great king, said the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the Gentiles; (Mal. i. 11, 14).”
This doesn’t refer to Jesus’ sacrifice, but to “your sacrifice.” The same Greek word for “sacrifice” (thusia) is used of Jesus’ sacrifice (Heb. 5:1), but it is also used of doing good deeds, praise, and financial giving (Heb. 13:15-16; Phil. 4:18). The same book also refers to the supper as the “cup” and the “bread,” and a means of remembering Jesus’ sacrifice in thanksgiving (Didache, 9).
I work in a Baptist church and have never heard anyone discuss the efficacy of baptism and the real presence of the Eucharist in this way. I’ve been wrestling with this for a while, as the Scriptures are clear that both are far greater than symbols. Thank you for your excellent explanation of the historic Baptist view. The Lord has used you to give me some credence in the Baptist perspective.
Baptist Pastors have not received the Sacrament of Holy Orders from a Bishop of Apostolic Succession - Catholic and Orthodox Pastors only. Therefore Baptist Pastors do not have the faculty to consecrate the bread and wine to become the body and blood of Jesus Christ.
I long for the day my church recognizes real presence and we can partake in proper respects to that reality. It grieves my heart to see this neglected.
It won't work if you don't have ministerial priests to transform bread and wine into the Eucharist.
@@Lerian_V says who?
@@not_milk The Bible, Tradition, and the Church. Asking why a normal person can't consecrate the Eucharist is like asking why a normal person can't pass spending for an expansion to the town park. Genesis 2:18 tells us that we are not meant to be alone, meaning that we are meant to form society. Within society there must be specialization; bakers will bake, teachers will teach. It is the job of a mayor to pass spending, it is the job of the priest to consecrate the Eucharist.
The central job of a priest is to offer sacrifices to God on behalf of the faithful. In the Old Covenant, this took the form of animal sacrifice, and for the New Covenant this takes the form of the Son to His Father in mediation as our eternal High Priest. So really, the question is for you to answer since the original or default mode of sacrifice was done by specialists: Who says that the rule changed and now just anyone can perform the job of the priest?
This is all not to mention that if just anyone were able to consecrate the host there would be an uncountable amount of offenses committed against the flesh and blood of the Lord. 1 Corinthians 11:20-30 records an account of some faithful at the church in Corinth who were abusing the consecrated host and then promptly becoming sick and dying. Seeing as this is how much the Father values His Son in the Eucharist, how could he possibly allow every Christian, no matter how sinful, improperly educated, heretical, or even mentally unbalanced to consecrate the host?
@@not_milk Even an angel cannot consecrate a communion host..
@@not_milk --- Jesus for one.
A friend was just asking about how real presence works and I had intended to send him your earlier video on it but now I'll use this one too! Real presence is absolutely something all Protestants should embrace as a beautiful and integral part of worship.
Same here!
What would you do if you truly believe that Jesus is present in the eucharist?,
would you not bow and prostrate yourself before Christ, would that not be so awesome, Christ really present in the church..
Would that not be the central worship for all churches, to break bread with Christ.
Didache (90AD) "The Lord's Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles" - the earliest written catechism. The Lords instruction on how to worship Him:
"On the Lord's Day gather together, break bread and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure - - -"
@@jotunman627 Well there are parts of what you said that I very much affirm - we should give thanks to God with marvelous awe at his mercy and love for us to give us the Lord's Supper as a way of drawing closer to him, but no I would not bow in reverence to the bread and wine because I do not think that is the proper response laid out in scripture, or in the passages that you quoted. I very much agree with that last one that you quoted though, and it was my pleasure to participate in that very thing earlier today, giving thanks to him after confessing my sins, with many other believers, and then participating in the Lord's Supper together.
@@tategarrett3042 Catholics treat the consecrated communion host as the most sacred thing in the world.
For Catholics “going to Adoration,” is referring to Eucharistic Adoration.
Which is the worship of the Eucharist outside of the Mass. The Eucharistic Host is displayed in a monstrance on the altar so that all can see and pray in the presence of Christ. - To be actually with Christ, in prayer.
In Garabandal, a question was asked on where the angels got the communion host that was given to the children, Mary answered it was taken from the tabernacle of the nearby church. Even an angel cannot consecrate a host.
Satanist steal consecrated communion host to use in their black mass to mock and dishonor Christ.
Their entire service is a mockery of the Catholic Mass.
Most Satanists and real Witches can discern a Consecrated Host among thousands of unconsecrated hosts. - They are able to know - “Because of the burning hate I would feel toward that host, apart from all the others.” - a quote from a real Satanist
@@jotunman627 I think that does a good job of showing what Protestant concerns are about turning the Lord's Supper into a source of idolatry in a sense in which the bread and wine become objects of adoration and even talismans to be venerated. This seems to be a clear abuse of the Lord's Supper which is meant to be consumed frequently and in both kinds by all those who profess Christ and follow him wholeheartedly. It is interesting that Satanists have at times done such things to and with the bread but I would be cautious in drawing conclusions based on that since they are, well, demon-worshipers.
Grateful for this excellent articulation of the historic Baptist view. Also grateful for the shout out to the Center for Baptist Renewal!
Gavin, I very much appreciate your videos. They are always clear, well constructed, and sincere. Your love for our Lord shines brightly, and His love shines through you. Have a wonderful Thanksgiving!
Thank you for the presentation! So thankful for Jesus
Thank you so much Dr. Ortlund! As a Baptist who spent time in the Episcopalian Church then back to Baptist, I sincerely missed the liturgy and the Eucharistic service. I LOVE #4! I decided I was taking Christ’s body and blood in some way even in my memorialist Baptist church. It occurred to me that what I was really doing was rejecting *sacerdotalism.* I receive the Real Presence by *faith*, even in a memorialist church, even in grape juice. I had no idea about this part of Baptist history, thank you so much again.
Nice! Thanks for this video! I'll watch it after work. This is just what I was thinking about today in church
After reading the early Christians, than seeing my church throw the leftovers in the trash after service I promptly located a different church that had a more respectful Eucharistic celebration.
Thank you so much for this. Lately, as a baptist I’ve been on the outside of what the members of my church believe and see in God’s word bc I have been studying God’s word with eyes of the Holy Spirit and hoping they will begin to see the same but I’m afraid it’s putting me outside. This is one of those topics that needs more study and historic understanding that most Christians don’t want to do or have been told not to do or you become a heretic.
Check out Brant Pitre's book, "Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist" and "The Lamb's Supper" by Scott Hahn. Bishop Barron has a couple of videos on the Real Presence on his CZcams channel.
Amazing as always, Dr. Ortlund! As someone within a non-denominational context, these videos are so informative and helpful for me thinking through my faith.
Good for you that you are exploring. Blessings on your inquiries!
@@Apriluser Thanks so much! Blessings to you as well!
Once again, great job Gavin!
Saving this video to send to others who don’t understand historic baptist views. Thank you for your scholarship!
Thank you for your hard work, Dr. Ortlund.
Very enlightening. Thank you.
Reformed Baptist for 20 years now Lutheran. I made the move due to Lutheranism balancing the Father's with Scripture, and the important point of discerning the Lord’s Body in the Supper.
Do you have valid ministerial priests?
It was your content on this subject that opened my eyes to real presence within the eucharist, and now communion Sunday is my favorite Sunday of the month! God bless you richly.
great to hear that!
The plain word's in Scripture, the teachings of the early Church Fathers and God's Eucharistic miracles demonstrate that both transubstantiation and Apostolic Succession are reality. If you want to obey God and eat the flesh and drink the blood of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ then be Catholic or Orthodox.
I really appreciate your ministry, brother.
Very grateful for this
Ive read the 1689 LBC many times and missed the part about spiritual presence every time. Thank you for bringing this up as it forced me to read it again and see what I missed before.
I would appreciate very much your response to the documented Eucharistic miracles. In particular, the research organized by Aimee Goodier, MD. After listening to her lectures, the evidence for transubstantiation appeared strong and I’ve not heard a Protestant response to these miracles. Thank you so much!
Yes would love to see @Dr Gavin Ortlund opinion on Dr. Ricardo Castañón Gómez, one of the principal investigators for many Eucharist miracles.
Yes, that would be very interesting to see Gavin respond to those researched and documented medical studies, which include the World Health Organization reports on the phenomenon of Eucharistic Miracles! I don’t think he wants to engage that research. Ask yourself this question, if God can create something out of nothing, through His Word (Jesus), when he said: “Let there be Light, and there was Light” ( Gen. 1:3), then why is it so difficult for Baptist to believe that God can transform something that already exists: bread, into something that is supernatural, and miraculous: Eucharist! The Baptist, and most Protestants, are Gnostic in their thinking: it’s the spirit alone that sets you free, the body (flesh) is dead. If that were true, the Incarnation would make no sense at all!
He won't do it. He is a wolf in sheep clothing
Transsubstantiation is not the same as real presence. Real presence does not specify the ontological change in Aristotelian terms.
you should be ashamed for saying this. @@justthink8952
Gavin
Would you be open to doing a series of videos that outline the historic Baptist views on the sacraments , church governance, and other important topics. I would love to see how much that historical Baptist tradition was still in the same umbrella theologically as the historic church and its magesterial Protestants
Love your videos Pastor Gavin
I currently go to a non denominational church which I have been told and experienced it is similar to baptist churches. My church also was a baptist church for the longest and then they changed to a non denominational. You have peeked my curiosity and interest in all these questions. I love these discussions and you have helped me to look at other churches and to seek unity when possible. Love your channel brother!
Love your work, brother!
I kind of want to show this to my pastor. I think he could benefit from an exploration of the issue.
Thank you for this video. Since I've started feeling that there is more to the Lord's Supper, that there's actual presence, hearing it called "a symbol" or "this symbolizes" in Baptist churches always seem to deflate the value of it totally.
Lots of great info here.
I love your stripe of Baptists. I often find myself being hard on baptists, but then I have to just remember the based traditional groups too
This was one of the reasons I left the Baptists for Orthodoxy. If I had thought it were a live option, it might have staved it off.
As an aside, in the Orthodox Church, every priest, deacon, teacher, et al I've heard has used the fire/metal analogy, has asserted that the elements really are changed, but that this change also does not involve a loss of their nature as bread and wine. And all of them insist that we are not to analyze or try to explain it. If I asked about the mouse scenario, I'd be told "That's none of your business!"
I explained this position, the historic Baptist position to a Baptist and they accused me of supporting transubstantiation. I even explained that it is supported by the 1689 London Baptist Confession which I thought he affirmed but apparently he does not.
May the Lord guide you home. God bless 🙌🏽
I’m a baptist and I hold this view as well ☺️
Brilliant video, Dr Ortlund. As a Lutheran, you are correct that I feel a little mis-characterised by your video. No hard feelings though. I think your video is the best comparative discussion on this topic I have ever seen. It did make me think, however, are we at the point we are trying to split the atom with this stuff?? I’m sure Christ himself doesn’t really mind, and probably isn’t taking sides over this topic.
You're sure?
22 minutes in; well done! I agree with this view--and it's important, as you've emphasized, that there's a real mystical feasting. Calvin emphasizes the reception of the *substance* of the body and blood of Jesus through the bread and wine, which is received by faith.
"Mouses can't have faith*
*master Splinter and Stuart Little enter the chat*
But Jesus never said this is me present with bread and wine. He said this is my body and this is my blood. He said eat my flesh and drink my blood. Why must we doubt the words of Christ. Why can’t we see with eyes of faith? How does it make sense Protestants lost this belief and are now trying to regain it? Would Christ really allow his bride to teach falsehoods on something so important as this?
@johnbrion4565 Jesus also said he's a vine--that doesn't mean he's literally a vine (to beat a centuries old horse to death).
John 6:35-37 -- Jesus identifies eating and drinking with faith, and in 1 Corinthians Paul calls the consecrated bread "bread". We'd say that Jesus can call the bread his body by metonymy--because his body and blood are sacramentally united and given to the recipient
@@anglicanaesthetics Jesus also in John 6 has a chance to clarify and instead doubles down and says unless you “gnaw on” (trogein in the original greek) the flesh of the son of man there is no life in you.” And the disciples left. He risked his whole ministry on this teaching. Sure he spoke metaphorically but not on this.
Jesus was instituting a new Passover. He was the new Moses the Jews were waiting for. The last supper was the new Passover. For the Passover to be complete the lamb had to be eaten. Jesus is the new manna from heaven. The manna was a miraculous bread from heaven which was stored in the ark of the covenant. Jesus is the new manna which must be greater than the old. If the old manna was kept in the holiest place in Judaism how much greater is the new manna of the Logos made flesh? Even Catholics refer to the Eucharist as bread. They doesn’t mean we are saying it’s only bread. When we eat this bread and drink this cup we proclaim your death oh Lord until you come again. Paul said those who eat and drink unworthily must answer for the body and blood of the Lord.
@@anglicanaesthetics you should check out a book called Jesus and the Jewish roots of the Eucharist by Brant Pitre which explains all of this.
Greatly enjoyed this video.
The last point is interesting because I've refused communion at certain churches based off the memorial meal idea.
Someone said to me (and this stuck), "if you don't think Christ is at communion, He'll honor that belief and won't be there."
Great video, as always.
Just as a recommendation; I'm Presbyterian, but I think Lutherans prefer the label Sacramental Union over Cosubstantiation, even if that can be somewhat vague
Wonderful.
Loves the idea about the mouse accidentally partaking. Could he be called a “church mouse”? Sorry couldn’t resist. ☺️
Lutheran here. Yeah, Consubstantiation is how the Reformed like to describe our Eucharistic theology. It's better, though, just to imagine the intemperate Luther yelling, "Hoc est corpus meum!" (this is my body) at Marburg. That pretty much gets to the point.
The Foursquare church officially holds to the Calvinist view that when the elements are received by faith real communion is experienced and it mediates to the believer the spiritual benefits of Christ’s death.
Dr. Ortlund, I can’t thank you enough for this video! As an evangelical who is starting to open my eyes to church history, and now a believer in real presence in the Eucharist for the past year, I have been looking for the answers you have provided!
I do have a question on your last thought in the video. I would love to have a Bible study on this subject alone with a Bible study group I meet up with at my evangelical church. But I will say, I don’t know how well it will go over with the head leadership to do such a thing. What would be the best way to approach this carefully and respectfully in light of my Church’s emphasis on their memoralist view every Sunday? Thanks in advance.
thanks a lot! One possibility might be simply sending them a video like this one, and asking if they are open to further discussion. I think it is important to be respectful of the leadership so I am so glad you are thinking about that. God bless you!
A baptist brother preaching the real presence ! ! Amen !!
Great video! I always enjoy hearing about other baptists who hold this view! Not sure if anyone has responded to this yet, but I have been looking into EO stuff recently, reading and listening to people. It seems that it almost depends on who you ask as to which view of the presence they hold to, mainly since they didn’t have the systematic push of the western church. I am curious to see how that changes as more westerners are beginning to look to the east.
Of all critiques one could level against the Orthodox… the idea that they don’t have a consistent position on the Eucharist has to be the most ridiculous one. I mean, the whole reason why the EO haven’t “hashed out” all the nitty gritty details about how it “works” (aside from such pseudo-scientific effort being pretty unnecessary in the first place) is that it’s the one doctrine that’s always been so fundamental so as to have never been in contention or warranting such examination throughout the 2000-year history of the church.
@@nuzzi6620 Thats a solid point, and definitely a better articulation of what I was trying to say. Wasn't throwing a critique at the EO position, I have just heard several people in and out of the tradition articulate their beliefs in different ways that leaned toward other views. Luther thought his view was closer to the EO view than the Catholic view, but you are going to find others who put it a different way. I am in the camp that we shouldn't try and "hash out" all the details of how it "works" and that is one primary reason why transubstantiation fails. Hope I made my previous comment clearer!
I REALLY APPRECIATE your in depth thinking on this and use of theological sources. Have you picked through Martin Chemnitz work on this? Loci Theologici and The Two Natures In Christ would be a fun deep dive. God be with you!
Hey, hopefully youre all good GOD willing, could you make a video about the counter reformation please? Its something i want to learn about and your videos have helped me a lot.
Have you read Brant Pitre’s the Jewish roots of the Eucharist? I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on the points he makes. It seems that the only way for us to try to grasp the mystery of the sacrament of the Eucharist is to look at John 6 and the words of Christ at the last supper through a 1st century Jewish lens.
If you’ve not read it please do and maybe you can make a video on it.
It’s a great book. ☺️
The Jews were about to celebrate the Passover at Jerusalem, in commemoration of the night of Israel's deliverance, when the destroying angel smote the homes of Egypt. In the paschal lamb God desired them to behold the Lamb of God, and *through the symbol receive Him* who gave Himself for the life of the world. But the Jews had come to make the symbol all-important, while its significance was unnoticed. They discerned not the Lord's body. The same truth that was symbolized in the paschal service was taught in the words of Christ. But it was still undiscerned.
Now the rabbis exclaimed angrily, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?” They affected to understand His words *in the same literal sense* as did Nicodemus when he asked, “How can a man be born when he is old?” (John 3:4). To some extent they comprehended the meaning of Jesus, but they were not willing to acknowledge it. By *misconstruing* His words, they hoped to prejudice the people against Him.
Christ *did not soften down* His symbolical representation. He reiterated the truth in yet stronger language: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He that eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, dwelleth in Me, and I in him.”
To eat the flesh and drink the blood of Christ is to receive Him as a personal Saviour, believing that He forgives our sins, and that we are complete in Him. It is by beholding His love, by dwelling upon it, by drinking it in, that we are to become partakers of His nature. What food is to the body, Christ must be to the soul. Food cannot benefit us unless we eat it, unless it becomes a part of our being. So Christ is of no value to us if we do not know Him as a personal Saviour. A theoretical knowledge will do us no good. We must feed upon Him, receive Him into the heart, so that His life becomes our life. His love, His grace, must be assimilated.
After studies like these I now fully embrace the real spiritual presence of Christ when celebrating the table even though I am ordained in the Baptist Church.
I'm TAing for Haykin this semester, you should have him on the channel!
Great video as always. But you shouldn’t drop bombs about spiritual presence being closer to Transubstantiation than Consubstantiation without telling us why! 😂
Seriously though, looking forward to the director’s cut of this video with more detail.
Cradle Catholic here. I have some (2) Protestant family members who would make fun of us Catholics and accuse us of cannibalism for believing in the true presence.. this was years ago, but now I am hearing from them saying that they now believe in the true presence of the Eucharist. 🤔some of them are even celebrating a Jewish Shabbat?? I don’t know what’s going on with Protestants, but I am starting to think that they are wanting to be Catholic but don’t want to admit it..
Great stuff as usual. Gavin, is there a systematic theology book you recommend?
Thanks, Dr. Ortulund! This was very helpful in deepening my understanding of these controversies. You suggest that Ambrose would not be considered rightly ordained under the Roman Catholic view. Can you point me to any more information on this?
I’m a Baptist who has always held to the Memorialist view but I’m open to learning. Where would you begin with a biblical case for the spiritual presence view. Memorialism leans heavily on the NT’s explicit purpose statements for Communion. “This do in remembrance…” “Show the Lord’s death…” Are there any texts that positively support spiritual presence?
When Jews did the Passover meal they were "reliving" their exile from Egypt. When Jesus does the "Do this in remembrance of me" he is exclaiming what they did with their Passover meal. Then obviously right after he says, "This is my body."
John 6 before the last supper he is telling the crowd that his flesh becomes real food, and they denied him 5 times and he corrected them 5 times and they still left.
I have the Oxford Disputations on the Eucharist...Peter Martyr...great book.
I don't know if anyone will see this comment, but if you want to understand the catholic prospective on the lords supper, you should read. This is my Body by Bishop Barron
If there is no faith in a real presence that involves the power of Holy Spirit transforming the substance beneath the outward appearance (accidence) of the bread, then all you are receiving is bread while believing subjectivity in Jesus words “this is my body.”
I believe in the “Real Presence”, A Mysterious transformation of matter indeed! I believe in the power of Christ transformative Word! All throughout the gospel Jesus Christ spoke and miracles happen. Why can’t non Catholic Christians take Jesus at his word? Many Catholics, too. Sadly. The Eucharist IS Jesus’ Body and Blood, not in a “spiritual sense alone” but in a Sacrament.
Es el sino de los protestantes, mucho sola escritura, pero al final no hacen caso de ella.
Sounds good. ❤
Thanks. This is really interesting. Is there a video where you show the real presence view in Scripture?
I think the closest we can come is this passage:
1Co 10:16-17 "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread."
But I don't find it altogether convincing.
The Roman Catholics, on the other hand, place huge stock in John 6:53 (ignoring verse 63, as well as failing to recognize that the overall context of the entire conversation Jesus had with those Jews was about their need to believe in Him).
You might take a look at Dr. Ortlund's YT video, "Why Believe in Real Presence in the Eucharist?".
25:00 I appreciate the historical view of the real Spiritual presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I would love to hear you parse out this idea more through the biblical lens of 1 Corinthians as well as how to better make the case for the connection between John 6 and the Last Supper since the context of John 6 is not the Last Supper. I have heard it said from those like the late Michael Heiser that you can't get to the Eucharist from John 6 because they are not literarilly connected. Would love to hear your thoughts on that!
I find this a bit confusing. In what sense can you spiritually, substantially, and actually receive the flesh and blood of Jesus while also saying that we are not physically receiving it? How does one spiritually receive a physical thing? Those two things seem mutually exclusive. If I’m receiving something spiritually, then it’s not a physical thing I’m receiving. And if it’s not a physical thing, then it’s not actually Jesus’ flesh and blood, right? Just a point of contention that popped up while I was listening.
Yeah sounds like playing around with semantics in my honest opinion
@@johna6828it's actually this verse: John 6: 63 that we as Protestants recognize and what Gavin is talking about!
That doesn't clear things up. Besides words are just as intangible as spiritual things so that follows. What doesn't naturally follow is the connection between physical elements and the spiritual reality which can only be by faith ie the faith is what matters not the elementz
@@davidjanbaz7728 Jesus is referring to the source of knowledge, as he says earlier in the passage that none can come to Jesus unless the father draws him.
Certainly we can’t say Jesus actually meant that HIS flesh is of no avail, given that it is his flesh being pierced on the cross that leads to our salvation.
In any event, that seems to me to be a concession that the reformed view, or at least your view, is not actually a “real presence” view. If I’m wrong do correct me, I’d hate to misunderstand you.
@@sneakysnake2330 Jesus could have meant that his literal flesh is of no avail, but it is the spirit which gives life. For some very odd reason, you think eating his literal flesh, and drinking his literal blood is the all important point, but yet the spiritual reality, the way it rejuvenates our spirit is not the main point. That does not add to me. I know Catholics always insist that Jesus stated it literally, and ignore when he clarified, "the flesh profits nothing, but its' the spirit that gives life". Did Jesus mean it literally when he said if your eye offends you, cut it off. If your hand offends you cut it off. I'm sure your eye has offended you quite a number of times, so are you missing at least an eye? Pretty sure no, and for good reason.
Thank you for this video. I suspected this was the case. I know Baptist churches are different regionally and even congregation to congregation. I’m not a Baptist but I did briefly attend one in my area. The Baptist churches in my area are very much like the caricatures unfortunately.
Thanks for getting this video out. As a lifelong Baptist, then transitioning into an Anglican Church for a year, it struck me just how much I heard within my Baptist churches everything the Lord's Supper was NOT, instead of all the beauty that it truly is. It cheapened my view of it (though the fear of taking it unworthily was ever present) until I understood it in a different light within the Anglican Church. I appreciated their use of an actual unleavened bread loaf and actual wine (as opposed to Welch's Grape Juice 🤦). But those elements may perhaps be more secondary.
I'm curious - if you'd be willing to share on here - how often you administer it within your congregation and how frequently you believe it should be given. Again, I was shocked to learn that Anglicans receive communion every Sunday, whereas in the Baptist churches I was a part of only did it maybe once a month, possibly less. The constant question I got asked from Baptist friends was, "Didn't that diminish its importance for you, taking it every week?" If anything though, it enhanced my view of the Lord's Supper, receiving it weekly.
Any way, sorry for the ramble, but just some things I've been thinking through since early 2022. Appreciate all the time and effort you put into these very informative videos!
Those are valid questions. Many protestant churches do not value it enough. The Catholic view of it being the literal body and blood and stressing it so much frankly icks me out. They've brought it to cannabilism. I've had the occasional honest Catholic even share they share the same view. Yet, the constant belief that it is literally his body has kept the Catholics and Orthodox to reverence it more. I can reverence it just as much w/ a deeper understanding of it. It is so much more than Jesus' flesh. It is the meeting of the old and new covenant. It is what God instructed the Jews to do w/ their atonement sacrifices, that they also ate for thousands of years. it is the whole congregation doing it in unision, showing Christ in us and we in him. Protestant communion shows this ritual better in that last respect, because they do partake of most Holy Communion in unision, unlike the Catholic assembly line method. Plus, we have never lost the ritual of taking both kinds, as Catholics have. I've always found that odd. They reverence the Eucharist so much, and consider their method so superior, yet they don't take both kinds, and their form of ritual has vastly changed from the biblical model, which is clearly laid out.
Until the Liturgical Renewal Movement of the '60s and '70s, many Anglicans (Episcopalians then) didn't celebrate Holy Communion weekly either. Morning Prayer was a common service on Sunday morning. When they did have communion, they would have "Morning Prayer with Holy Communion". It took a while, and the new BCP 1979, for Holy Communion to be restored as the principal service on Sunday morning. It seems normal now, but it took almost a generation for the change to take hold. See, so there's hope for the Baptists after all!
Maybe you should check out Gavin's church website and see how he does his church service..
Anglican here, too.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 You said: "The Catholic view of it being the literal body and blood and stressing it so much frankly icks me out."
Catholics treat the consecrated communion host as the most sacred thing in the world.
Eucharistic Adoration is where in the Eucharistic Host is displayed in a monstrance on the altar so that all can see and pray in the presence of Christ. - To be actually with Christ, in prayer.
In Garabandal, a question was asked on where the angels got the communion host that was given to the children.
Mary answered it was taken from the tabernacle of the nearby church.
Even an angel cannot consecrate a host.
Satanist steal consecrated communion host to use in their black mass to mock and dishonor Christ.
Their entire service is a mockery of the Catholic Mass.
Most Satanists and real Witches can discern a Consecrated Host among thousands of unconsecrated hosts. - They are able to know - “Because of the burning hate I would feel toward that host, apart from all the others.” - a quote from a real Satanist.
As a subdeacon in Byzantine Catholic who grew up in a Dutch Calvinist tradition I find this video to be honest and engaging with truth. Thank you for your sincerity in pursuing truth.
St Theodoret's writings on Eranistes written in 447 is explicitly condemned by the Fifth Ecumenical Council of Second Constantinople in 553.
But even if Calvinists don't accept 553 then the text still problematic because in same paragraph it supports veneration of icon as the image represents the object depicted.
Brett Salkeld did an excellent analysis explaining that transubstantiation is not a physical change. He pointed out that had this was the case then after consuming the Eucharist it can't be discarded in toilet because it's holy. But rather because the transelementation is metaphysical then once the physical forms cease then there's no more metaphysical transformation. Transubstantiation is not about physical transformation. In fact it's impossible because had that been the case then it would be literally cannibalism. Rather it's metaphysical transformation whereby the perceptible properties remain. Similar to incarnation. Union of physical nature and metaphysical nature. Analogous to metal ignited by fire. The physical property remain (accidental nature) but it has been transubstantiated into new metaphysical nature as fire sword. Transubstantiation and incarnation don't deny the existence of physical nature (bread, wine, body, and soul) but rather argue it has been transformed into new metaphysical nature. In theosis the old man is gone and entirely replaced metaphysically by the new man wholly deified.
Another issue with Calvinist real presence is its denial of St Cyril's second letter which was dogmatized at Ephesus on the Eucharistic adoration of the unbloody sacrifice. R C Sproul had a video explaining why a sacrifice even though unbloody is pagan and not Christianity. The problem is the worship of Eucharist as an unbloody sacrifice is dogmatic at Ephesus.
"For even after the consecration the mystic symbols are not deprived of their own nature; they remain in their former substance, figure, and form; they are visible and tangible as they were before. But they are regarded as what they have become, and believed so to be, and are worshipped as being what they are believed to be. Compare then the image with the archetype, and you will see the likeness, for the type must be like the reality."
You wrote: "Transubstantiation is not about physical transformation. In fact it's impossible..." I agree that it's impossible, however the Roman Catholic Church teaches very clearly that transubstantiation *necessarily includes* physical transformation. Roman Catholic clergy under Queen Mary's reign burned alive at least 288 English reformers in 4 years, from 1555 to 1558, and one of the main reasons why they were condemned as heretics was because they would not recant their belief that Christ is present in the Eucharist in a spiritual manner only, and not corporally present. (Source: "Five English Reformers," by J.C. Ryle) The RCC was deadly serious about it!
@@rexlion4510 Gavin Ortlund gives his personal recommendation on the works of Brett Salkeld. As a former Dutch Calvinist who converted to Byzantine Catholic I entirely second Gavin Ortlund endorsement. Brett entirely and meticulously refuted the false history that the Catholic Church profess carnal and physical transformation. Not only impossible but also prohibited by God's immutable law since the beginning of creation against cannibalism. Brett clarified in his interview with Gavin that had the transformation were carnal and physical then after consuming one can't be discarded in toilet. Brett pointed out historically when this was debated and condemned.
The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church profess the Eucharistic adoration of the unbloody sacrifice which as Martin Luther stated witnessed unanimously by the entire Church without disagreement. Spiritual presence is Nestorian. Because Calvin denied communication of attributes between the two natures to one another. You can read Martin Luther condemnation of John Calvin extracalvinisticum belief. Calvin argued the humanity of Christ remain united to the Logos but physically localized in heaven. Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, and Anglicans opposed this novelty. Because at Ephesus St Cyril's second letter accepted as dogmatic. In it Cyril wrote that the flesh present in the chalice and transcend physical limitations because that flesh is God's flesh and entirely deified. Theosis communicate divine attributes into the deified flesh. This is what St Peter wrote regarding theosis namely participation with the uncreated divinity. Unless the humanity of Christ is in the chalice then what you have in the chalice would be a Nestorian Christ. This is why Martin Luther explicitly and categorically condemned John Calvin extracalvinisticum because the humanity has transcended created limitations and receives attributes fitting for divinity due to communicatio idiommata between the two natures. Calvin and Nestorius accepted communication of attributes not between the two natures but to the person. This is why John Owen explicitly taught that during earthly ministry Christ entirely emptied Himself kenotically and His miracles entirely from Holy Spirit aiding and empowering the humanity. This view is Nestorian. That's why Martin Luther accused John Calvin to be a Nestorian.
In regards to torture and death penalty, the Catholic Church has formally and categorically condemn it similar to how John Calvin involved in permitting the burning of Michael Servetus despite of having power to prevent it or with the infamous burning of St Joan of Arc.
@@AdithiaKusno I do not see how anyone (Salkeld or otherwise) can contradict the clear statement by the Council of Trent on the subject. One of the Canons of Trent (which has never been retracted) states, "If any one denieth, that in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, are contained really, truly, *and substantially,* the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, *and consequently the whole Christ;* ...let him be anathema."
This Canon is saying that the consecrated elements become "the whole" Jesus Christ. The very body and blood are "substantially" (i.e., in substance) present. The substance of a body is its physicality. The substance of blood is physical in nature along with all of its inherent properties. In other words, the physical substance of His body and blood must be believed by a person to be present in the host and cup, or that person is "anathema" to the RCC, the church which claimed itself to be the sole mediator of salvation when it taught for centuries that "outside of the Catholic Church there is no salvation."
I was baptized, catechized, and confirmed in the Roman Catholic Church. God called me out of the RCC when I was 18, but due to that church's brainwashing (they taught me that I'd be damned to hell if I left and died outside of the RC faith) I resisted the Holy Spirit for 8 more years. Now I am in my 60s. I possess photocopied pages from one of the books they used to teach us the Catechism. It says, "After the substance of the bread and wine had been changed, only the _appearances_ of bread and wine remained...the _appearances_ of bread and wine _without_ their _substance_ ." (italics copied from the original text). The book I am quoting from had the official "imprimatur" and "Nihil Obstat" of the RCC and was fully approved as being correct in doctrine.
If Salkeld says differently than the Catechism book I was taught from and differently than Trent, I'd say he is a modern revisionist of actual history.
@@AdithiaKusno I will say that your reasoning tends to show why a "spiritual presence" concept is not proper. Although I am now an Anglican Christian (emphasis on "Christian", for it is Christ crucified and risen who defines my identity) I am more persuaded than ever than a memorialist/symbolic view is best, so long as due reverence is included.
@@rexlion4510 Trent dogmatized that the Eucharist is entirely Christ substantially but nowhere Trent interpret this to imply physical transformation. And this is true to this day. You can't find any Church fathers disagree not even St Theodoret that Gavin Ortlund quoted. Because the word physis used by St Theodoret refers to physicality of bread and wine which remain after transelementation. This is what St Aquinas refer to as accidental nature. St Damascene apply this accidental nature to the humanity of Christ after incarnation because the human subsistence is anhypostasis it has no existence by itself other than exist assumed by the Logos. Accident doesn't mean it's illusory or has no physical reality. Brett Salkeld is defending how Tridentine fathers understood itself. I highly recommend you to read his book or his interview with Gavin Ortlund. One easy example to affirm that Trent deny physical transformation is that after communion if it's physical then no one could discarded it in toilet. It was debated before Trent whether after consumed it stays as Holy Eucharist or cease and can be discarded in toilet. This is why Tridentine fathers avoided the use of physical transformation. Transubstantiation is metaphysical transformation not physical. You can verify in the lab the physical properties stay as St Theodoret stated. It's the metaphysical transformation that transformed the bread and the wine into Christ. You may argue that this is historical revisionism but this is not. You can ask any Assyrian Church of the East, Oriental Orthodox, and Eastern Orthodox if after consumption it stays as Eucharist in the digestive system? They will confirm to you it is not. Therefore bread and wine can be discarded in toilet because the transformation is never physical. This is what Trent dogmatized and always everywhere professed by the Church everywhere and at all time since the beginning. Ask any Assyrians, or Coptics, or Greeks. No one will say otherwise.
Nice!
Gavin where can I easily access the Charles Spurgeon Quote you cited, I cannot find it anywhere
Could you clarify what constitutes a ‘valid church’, as the husband and father of my family, do I need to be ‘ordained’ to presenting communion to my family?
Also if one is at a liberal church with a lesbian trans pastor who says Jesus wasn't a real person and they hold communion and I was there and took communion would I receive?
I attend Coptic Orthodox liturgy. There is a heavy emphasis on the sacramental transubstantiation
@TruthUnites @Dr Ortlund whats your opinion on @Dr. Ricardo Castañón Gómez, one of the principal investigators for many Eucharist miracles. Or just Eucharist miracles themselves? Thanks and GOD Bless your family and you. Robert from Puerto Rico 🇵🇷
I like your approach. Good theology should exist in order to combat bad theology, but really pursuing Christ as you find Him in the gospel is more important than getting all the theological details in order.
I love this. Thanks, Gavin! I'm still seeking the truth on this. But a spiritual Real Presence makes the most sense to me. Transubstantiation and Consubstantiation make the least in my mind. Catholics have told me, "Enjoy your snack." How rude! Even if you hold the memorialist point of view, I don't know any church that takes Jesus' sacrifice for our sins lightly. Of course we all read John 6 and came to different conclusions, but to me, vs 63 is the ringer... "The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you-they are full of the Spirit and life." When people say they're really eating the flesh, I quote that verse. Jesus is saying it's not a matter of flesh, but a spiritual matter. Next time I receive the elements I'll come into it with a different mindset and see what the Spirit has for me.
The verses in John 6 that precede this verse, Jesus constantly refers to “my” flesh. He is talking about HIS body. The verse you quote he talks about “the” flesh. He is talking about something completely different. Protestants misuse this verse.
@@billmartin3561 If we look at it all in context... On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you-they are full of the Spirit and life.
---
So, they were still discussing what Jesus said just seconds before. Confirmed when he says, "the words I have spoken to you..." It's all still a part of the "bread of life" teaching that he just provided. God bless.
@@billmartin3561 Catholic conveniently ignore this verse, because it just doesn't fit w/ the added and not biblical doctrine of transubstantiation. So it's just a tosser.
@@billmartin3561 Do you really think Jesus was teaching about taking communion, a whole year before the Last Supper took place? If you read the entire chapter carefully, you might notice the one thing Jesus repeats most often (the point He's trying to get across to these spiritually resistant people who want more free food) is that they need to *believe in Him.* See verses 28-29, 35, 40, and 47.
"The flesh" is a phrase and it is not the same as "my flesh".
The flesh means the thinking and the feelings of being a human being.
Because your logical explanation of John chapter 6 is based on human thinking based on human observation, you can't comprehend how Jesus could give his flesh to eat even when Jesus compared it with the manna. You reasoning is based on "the flesh"
Jesus' teaching that he was the bread sent down from heaven and we must eat it, that's a spiritual teaching.
Catholic's interpretation is a spiritual teaching, not a teaching of the flesh.
Thanks for this video, Gavin! I remember my first Lord's Supper after believing in real presence. I truly felt Christ and his presence in a real way. I hope more protestants come to understand real presence!
By the way, Andrew Gifford's birth/death dates contain a mistake. It says 1700-1884. I guess that spiritually feasting upon Christ contains longevity benefits too! God bless, Gavin.
haha, nice catch! Thanks. Its 1700-1784
So, my next question would be, if there is “the potential” of a valid Eucharist, does that mean that it is also potentially not a valid Eucharist, at least sometimes? And if so, how can we tell if the Eucharist celebrated in our services is not valid?
Dear Gavin [PLEASE READ :) ]-- One thing I've always valued highly about your videos is the experience of so to speak spending time with you -- having you come into my home and talk a while. I'd therefore like to cast a vote for your not using the video technique of putting in little jump cuts. I know it's popular, but it makes it like I'm watching an edited video of you rather than having you talk to me. (Of course, it IS an edited video in any case, basically, but you know what I mean.) I realize you tend to be concerned about your videos not lasting too long, but: (a.) Is that really an issue with your viewers -- if so, I'm so surprised! (b.) I hope so much there's a way for you to be happy with your videos' length without the jump cuts! In any case, I'm grateful for your work and your gentle manner. -- Lee
I haven't noticed yet in this one, and haven't really noticed it in others. We know he is very strapped for time and has 5 kids. So there's bound to be times when a kid comes in, or some family matter comes up, and he has to continue after. I'm pretty sure he doesn't edit them in for the sake of it. I can't even watch videos where they do constant jump cuts. Too distracting, and when it was super trendy, it made me a bit dizzy.
What are the Cranmer and Vergmilli books you reference?
I believe it's "A Defence of the True and Catholic Doctrine of the Sacrament of the Body and Blood of Our Savior Christ"
Hate to volunteer you for more work but wish you present historic view of baptism... so good thx. We Baptist are weak on sacraments i think.
Interesting take on this. Some good points. It’s still really hard for me to listen to one person interpreting what he thinks some church fathers may have meant when they said something. Honest question, and I’m not being rhetorical, why should this view be accepted? Like, by what authority can this view be trusted? Again, I’m asking honestly, because Dr. Gavin Ortland says this is what some church fathers and reformers meant by real presence, I should accept that view? Again, why should I be compelled to believe that? Thanks for the videos.
I wish all calvinistic baptists were historical baptists like you Mr. Gavin Ortlund, would you consider yourself a particular baptist?
Hi Gavin! Great episode! Can someone sign the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message with good conscience to become a deacon in a church while believing in the real presence as it says that it is a symbolic act?
Yes, I believe so. BF&M 2000 does not articulate what the Lord's Supper is not, but only what it is. The wording intentionally doesn't specify that a symbol is all that it is, but rather just specified a bare minimum belief. There is no prohibition against beliefs that go further than that, ie that in addition to being a symbol & memorial, that the Lord's Supper is something else.
That's an interesting question. Does authorial intent matter with regards to confessions? It is possible to interpret symbolic as not being opposed to real spiritual presence, but what if the authors intended it to be so (i.e., out of the 4 choices, we explicitly affirm 1 and not 2-4)
Strictly speaking, everyone affirms that it is *at least* a symbol, so either the statement of the confession is absolutely non-committal and thereby rather superfluous, or it's really picking out a place on the map and saying "*this* is where we stand."
On the other hand, supposing we throw out authorial intent, practically speaking, a confession is supposed to be a common statement of faith. Or more precisely, a statement of a common faith. Presumably we want to be able to affirm the same substantial faith as everyone else and not just the same words for it to mean anything. If 99% of adherents mean something different when they affirm a confession than what I mean, what's the use of affirming a common verbal confession?
Now there can be other practical reasons to do so: namely, in your scenario, you can't serve at the church without signing the document. In that case you should probably talk to the leadership and come to an understanding that you can only sign in good conscience with some sort of provisos, and see what they say. I would recommend being honest about your misgivings, and it's in their hands at that point how they handle your particular case.
I've also gone down this same journey and come to the same conviction. 2 questions please if you see this:
1. What do you think of grape juice instead of wine? That's what my church practices.
2. I think an understanding of the real presence of Christ affects your eschatology. My dispensational friends say the temple sacrifices in the millennium are a new kind of communion, so not real sacrifices,but a reminder. So if Christ is truly present at communion, surely He cannot once again be present in temple sacrifice. What do you think?
Wine and grape juice start their lives as the same substance, and differ only in the treatment applied to them (fermentation vs pasteurization) changing their eventual composition. Modern pasteurized grape juice was actually invented to provide a non-alcoholic communion drink to Methodist churches (Thomas Welch, founder of Welch’s grape juice, was a Methodist minister), the urban legend I heard growing up Methodist was that they did this for the benefit of alcoholics in the congregation, so they wouldn’t be tempted to relapse. The reality possibly has more to do with a general opposition to alcohol, but there’s also probably a grain of truth in the legend.
Truth unites and Christ is the truth ! Thank you for ministry you don
I'd like to hear Pastor Ortlund's exegesis of John 6.
Great video, Gavin. The difference between “2” and “4” is a main reason I personally left Roman Catholicism. The entire mass leads to the Eucharist and Catholics are required to accept transubstantiation. I couldn’t continue taking communion there because I just can’t accept the doctrine in that strict a sense.
I watched a Catholic mass online today out of curiosity and one thing that doesn’t sit right with me is that communion is treated as a “sacrifice.” We aren’t sacrificing Christ when we take communion. (And I don’t believe we’re cannibalizing Him either)
thanks -- yes, unfortunately the anathemas offered at Trent toward Consubstantiation views make it a dividing issue
@@jncon8013 Catholics seem to believe that every mass is dipping into Christ's sacrifice for us, and when the priest consecrates the bread and wine, then everyone gets to feast on the actual Christ. So Christ is a continual sacrifice, not a one time, and it is finished.
@@saintejeannedarc9460, Catholic language on this is actually pretty precise. We affirm a once and for all sacrifice which is made sacramentally present to us in the Eucharist. (That is what the rather pious language of "unbloody sacrifice" is meant to indicate.) There is a Scriptural sense in which the sacrifice is eternal, i.e., the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. We understand Calvary as that eternal self-giving within the Trinity transposed onto sinful human history. And then the Mass is our participation in the life of the Trinity through the gift of Christ on the Cross. But, even given all that, we agree with Protestants about the once and for all nature of the cross. I would love to hear Dr. Ortlund do a video on Eucharistic sacrifice.
While you may have left Catholicism due yo your issues with transubstantiation, i find it very admirable of you doing so because so many Catholics receive communion and don’t believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist through transubstantiation.
As a catholic myself, I would love for you to revert back but I appreciate your decision to leave due to the unbelief and not feeling as if you could accept communion in the Catholic Church.
Gavin,
Could you clarify what constitutes a ‘valid church’.
As the husband and father of my family, do I need to be ‘ordained’ to presenting communion to my family?
I'd also be interested in an answer to this since our church only holds the Lord's Supper when the pastor "feels" led too which was last on Christmas so nearly a year ago(and I have reason to believe it had been even longer since the time before that). I'd like to hold it weekly in my home.
Something to consider. Communion is based on the Passover meal. We know this. In fact, one could think of Communion as a “mini-Passover” because we are celebrating/commemorating/partaking in the death and resurrection of Jesus, His efficacious sacrifice. This happened at Passover.
Originally, before Communion was formally instituted by the Apostles, “Communion” was likely taken once per year by the Jewish believers (during Passover).
What’s notable about Passover is that it is a meal taken at home with family/friends. Jews don’t go to synagogue, they don’t necessarily have rabbi there. They just do it. Likely the early Christians just did it too.
All this to say is that I don’t think you need a priest’s/pastor’s permission to do this at home. So long as you’re a believer, have been baptized, and have taken some time beforehand to consider your sin (and repent), then you can take and give Communion at home in my view. The Lord is everywhere, especially in the presence of two or more believers.
Dr Ortlund! Catholic here. This is a very informative and well done exposition on Baptist views of the real presence! Far from disagreeing or "hating" what you were just about to say, I would actually suggest you flip-flop 2 and 3! I fully agree that 2 and 4 are far and away the closest of the four types you lay out! And it's obvious. Under option 4, we (Catholics (and I believe Orthodox as well)) believe that Christ is indeed present spiritually in the Eucharist! I don't disagree with your statements on the kind of "broader union with Christ" and "feasting on Christ" apart from the Eucharist. Of course, we feast on Christ in his words as well.
Of course, Christ's presence is far more than just spiritual
It's almost ironic, when you say (in section three) that Catholics have to "read in" transubstantiation or that we somehow believe that all Church Fathers were always in 100 percent accord. They were not! For example, Justin Martyr presents the more Catholic theory:
For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change (transmutation) of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus. - St. Justin Martyr First Apology 66
And for every Theodoret that seems to deny transubstantiation or change in nature, we can propose an Irenaeus, a Tertullian, an Origen, a Cyril or Jerusalem, an Ambrose, and the list goes on, who all teach what will eventually come to be understood as transubstantiation. As always, whenever we dabble in the deep waters of the Fathers, we must always consider two things: does any particular statement made by a Church Father accord with the teaching of the Church?; and does that statement follow from and accord with scripture? The Apostolic Churches are fundamentally scripture and tradition oriented, but this doesn't mean we take the Fathers AS scripture.
So what did Jesus say and do about this matter?
He says more than once ego eimi ho artos ho katabas ek tou ouranou --- I am the bread having come down from heaven.
And the people who heard him sounded somewhat like Theodoret: is this not Joseph's son? How is it he's saying he came down from heaven!
Jesus told them to stop grousing and grumbling. And then he lays down his amen amen lego humin --- truly truly I tell you: ego eimi ho artos tes zoes --- I am the bread of life. He intensified! Ego eimi ho artos ho zon --- I am the living bread! Then he nails it, saying of this bread that he gives: he sarx mou --- my flesh. This is meat. Red meat. Not an impossible burger but 100% animal flesh.
And, like Theodoret, they continued to grouse and grumble, arguing that he can't possibly mean actual sarka --- flesh!
And Jesus lays out yet another amen amen lego humin --- truly truly I say to you! Ean me phagete ten sarka tou Houiou tou anthropou, kai piete autou to haima --- if you shall not have eaten the flesh of the Son of man and drunken his blood... He gar sarx mou alethes estin brosis, kai to haima mou alethes estin posis --- for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink.
And he hammers home AGAIN that this is the bread coming down from heaven. I always write out the Greek so that we can see clearly what the scripture actually reported. Here John is not saying that the bread is bread and the wine is wine, remaining unchanged. He is saying that Christ IS the bread and that the bread is REAL FLESH --- meat --- and that the wine is REAL BLOOD. It is carnal. It is local. The bread and the wine change. Very fundamentally.
As always, I rejoice whenever any kind of Protestant article of belief or doctrine of faith approaches that of the Church! It is a sign of fraternity. And on the spiritual real presence, I think we share some warm fraternity here! For example, when I participate in the liturgy from home, the priest always makes provision for precisely this --- a spiritual communion for those of us who can't be physically present.
But it is also a sign of broken unity between Baptists and Apostolic Christians. While the spiritual real presence is, as I would argue, a true understanding, it is not the full understanding as taught by the Church, upheld by many Fathers and as proclaimed in the Gospel and handed down by the Apostles, even beginning with Paul.
On the matter of the mouse or the unbaptised eating the body, I think I'd concur on the yes and no nature of that question! I'd say that, yes the mouse is eating our lord's body --- but he's a mouse and can neither eat Christ beneficially nor detrimentally. For the unbaptised, who is completely and utterly ignorant of what the body of Christ is, I think his situation would be more like the mouse's. For a Christian who rejects the Apostolic faith, but acting within his own Protestant context, I'd say he's not eating Christ's body at all, so it really is a matter of faith whether he's just eating a cracker that one can get in the grocery or a cracker that has some "added" symbolism such as you mentioned early in your video.
The only way I'd say that a Protestant can get into any kind of trouble is if he, knowing what the Church teaches, entered a Catholic liturgy and took the Eucharist knowing that he rejects what the Eucharist actually is. I can't imagine any Protestant actually doing this --- it would be insulting to Jesus, it would be an insult to the Catholics around him and it would be an insult to his own conscience! This would be a highly unworthy reception of Christ's body, and this is literally why we (Catholics) refuse the open communion theory that many Protestants share. We do it for your own good!, so that you won't accidentally or even piously participate in something that you don't believe in. It's also why we can not take communion in any Protestant church.
One other thing to consider, Gavin, as a sort of "hostile witness" is the curious practice of (some) Satanists who steal consecrated hosts from Catholic churches. I won't say what they do with the body, but it is a compelling witness to the physical real presence that even the guys on the other team recognise and believe that Christ is bodily present in the Eucharist. From what I understand, they don't steal at all from Protestant churches and when taking from Catholic churches are careful not to take the unconsecrated hosts from the storage cupboard, but go straight to the tabernacle in stead.
In the end, I think you make a good case for a broader understanding of various modes of interacting with and consuming Christ --- and I think these are modes that Baptist and Catholic alike agree on, and I for one would argue that Baptists clearly receive grace within their understanding of the lord's supper. But there is always more! You kind of keep shying away from the obvious truth, which is that while spiritual real presence is a thing, it's not the whole thing. If you posit that the Catholic has to "read transubstantiation into" the Eucharist, I'd argue that the Baptist has to either close his eyes or "read transubstantiation out of" the Eucharist.
You can use the label, but Lutherans have never held to consubstantiation.
Dr. Gavind are you teaching the real presence of the Eucharist in the Church you are pastoring?
You addressed the question of whether one who believes in real presence really receives it even when those around him do not. What of the inverse? Does real presence happen when someone who is committed to a memorialist-only position eats the bread and drinks the wine?
How can Catholics say that Christ does not die again on the altar when the Council of Trent states that he is immolated in the Mass?
Simple. "Immolate" does not mean "kill." It is a synonym for "sacrifice," a concept which does not require the sacrificial gift to be killed (Num. 8:11-21, Rom. 12:1).
According to its root-words, "to immolate" means to sprinkle with sacrificial grits or meal. In ancient times the sacrificial gift was sprinkled with this meal as part of the ritual. Eventually the word "immolate," which originally referred to only part of the ceremony, was extended to cover the whole act of sacrifice, and so it became detached from its original meaning of "to sprinkle with meal" and became a synonym for sacrifice.
Because sacrifices often involve killing, the term immolate can have this association, but that is not the way in which the Church is using it. This is obvious from the language Trent uses, that in the Mass "Christ is contained and immolated in an unbloody manner" (session 22, ch. 2)--an unbloody manner being one that does not involve killing.
I would love for you to do something on the exclusivity claims of the orthodox and catholic claims. I've started studying the various traditions of chrisitianity and it's really putting into question some of my beliefs. The discussion you had with Craig Truglia where he claimed that you, tolkien and lewis were damned to hell and his whole argument from galatians really made me question my own beliefs. I went to the passage and the way he pulls out a whole doctrine of exclusivity from that is extreme. But it still brought a lot of doubts.
I have a video on the doctrine of no salvation outside the church which might be of value. May the Lord guide you and give you peace. Remember to place your trust in Christ and Christ alone for salvation
It is the devil throwing darts. Claiming God only honours one particular church is pretty grotesque and prideful. People want to think they are on the winning team. Turning Christianity and the body of Christ into team sports, where one wins and conquers over the other is not even close to what Christ had in mind. Please read the latter part of 1 Cor. 12, about the body of Christ. There are essential teachings there that will put your doubts in the background and give you crucial and loving comfort and perspective.
Catholics and Orthodox remind me of James and John vying for the coveted spot to sit on Jesus' right hand. I see it crop up in comments constantly, w/ both of them claiming to be God's one and only true church.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 Thank you for your encouragement :) I just don't understand how God could look at people who love the Lord like Gavin, or me, or anyone who genuinely love and serve Him, and send them to hell because they don't use icons or pray the rosary, confess to a priest, etc. I can't see any of it in the scriptures.
@@TruthUnites Thank you, I will try looking for it
@@pappywinky4749I’ve heard many catholic clerics and theologians say that there is salvation outside the church even though the Catholic Church is the one true church.
As a catholic myself, I believe non-Catholics can be and are saved
How does this play out concerning frequency?
Is a pastor who believes all this and does not practice weekly communion deprive his congregation from christ?
Gavin, can you clarify to this long-term Memorialist: What precisely is experienced by the participant in the “Real Presence” view?
I’ve read all the great quotes (that you supply) about the spiritual and non-carnal partaking of Christ. But in terms of real-world experience, what is the noticeable impact?
For hypothetical example:
- Person A never participates in Communion.
- Person B is a monthly Memorialist.
- Person C participates monthly and with active faith embracing Real Presence.
- Person D participates in Real Presence weekly.
- Person E goes to all 3 morning services to get yet more of Christ weekly.
- Person F skipped church Sunday and missed out.
What actual distinctions are there in the life, faith, spiritual growth, and worshiping lives of these individuals?
Are we prepared to say that over time the spirituality will be deeper for Person E over D over C over B over Person A? And that person F was somehow debilitated by missing this past Sunday?
Is it simply like other opportunities to grow (I.e. listening to sermons, doing Bible study, engaging God relationally in prayer, worshiping meaningfully, serving sacrificially, loving another…) where we generally grow via participation and generally stagnate from our lack of participating?
Or is there something unique here in a truly tangible sense that is demonstrable and traceable?
Podcast topic opportunity?
La comunión es un sacramento, vía por la que la gracia de Dios actúa. Evidentemente influye en las personas. Los protestantes al no recibirla, ni considerarlo sacramento,están siendo privados de la gracia de Dios.
What is the scriptural evidence for this view?
It was my understanding that the eastern orthodox believe that the Eucharist is both the Body and Blood of Christ AND the bread and wine at the same time, differing from the Roman Catholic view that no bread or wine is left remaining.
Well done, here.