Noise Reduction Battle! - Lightroom vs Topaz vs DXO Pure RAW
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- čas přidán 20. 04. 2023
- The newest release of lightroom and ACR has some great new features... and everyone is talking about the new AI Denoise... in this video we compare it to the other major denoise products on the market and see which is best.
This video is best viewed in its highest quality on a large screen. It is very difficult to see noise in images on CZcams at lower settings and screen sizes.
My "Leave it Better" hats that raise money to replant national forests can be found here --- www.nickpagephotography.com/l... - Jak na to + styl
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Really appreciate your taking the time to do this, Nick. I don't have those other softwares, so it great to see comparisons
Nick, this is the first time I have watched one of your videos, and I am so impressed. I can't praise you enough for getting straight to the point and offering such practical tips. Thank you, too, for flagging the artifact problems with DXO and Topaz. I have encountered the same. Well done all around. I've subscribed to your channel.
Heartily agree. Nick really does do very credible and reproducible evaluations!
UPDATE: I made this video with the assumption that Photo AI was giving me the same results as Denoize AI... after several suggestions, I went in and compared the results with topaz Denoize AI and certainly got better results... Please forgive me! I think this retest brings Topaz Denoize AI closer to Lightroom in regards to Image quality and speed, and for the photoshop user, using it at the end of the workflow is still my #1 recommendation. For the Lightroom user, stick with the Lightroom Denoise, as it yields results on Par with the Topaz standalone plugin in my opinion!
I looked into Topaz Photo, but after some research opted for Topaz Denoise AI. It seems to be more up to date than the Photo version and I like the options to compare 4 different levels such as standard or severe with the added option of adjusting sliders for amounts. No artifacts seen as yet. Always appreciate your honest reviews/comparison videos.
Nick, yes! I'm seeing better results with Topaz Denoise AI than Photo AI as well. I feared it was just my poor eyesight. Thank you for confirming.
Thanks for the update... I agree. Topaz Photo AI might might have the edge (🤭) initially, as it seems to add some sharpening (via a detail slider) during noise reduction. LrC isolates its Denoise noise reduction actions from image sharpening. LrC's sharpening utilizes a separate slider and optional mask (as before). Both approaches seem to do the job.
We live in wonderful times.... eh? 🤗
Exactly what I was going to comment about. I too get much better results with denoise ai than photo ai. Thanks for the update!
Indeed especially for low light images, Topaz Denoise gives much better results. When working on TIFF files instead of RAW files you can also choose explicitly a low-light noise model which for me really helps with astro images.
Really miss seeing your weekly posts on CZcams. Always love your approach to teaching and mentoring. Your passion for the photographic pursuits was always inspiring and infectious. Hope to see more of your work sometime soon. As always, thanks for all of your efforts!
I appreciate that Paul thank you
Haha your name instantly popped into my head when I saw the open multiple images as smart object layers option in the upgrade, they should definitely credit you for that one! Thanks as always for your thoughtful unbiased analysis, you are really a gem from the photography hobbyist with a limited budget who wants to vet options before spending on unnecessary products.
Thank you, Nick, for a very informative tutorial.
Thanks for making this video. I know that as soon as I heard about the update, I was immediately interested in knowing how it compared to Topaz's offering.
superb video nick and a great comparison
Excellent, systematic comparisons Nick 👌
Great video Nick! Very informative
It's a really great new feature this noise reduction in lightroom or camera raw. Thank you for taking thentime to compare all of this programs.
Great video Nick.
Nice one Nick! I was hoping you'd do a video on this :)
A very helpful video thanks Nick.
Thanks for the great comparison. This is very helpful stuff!
Thank you Nick very nice comparison and useful.
Thanks for the onformative and helpful video. I have the same style of workflow that you talk about. I was on the fence about noise software options. You saved me a load of time comparing them.
Thank you for putting this together
Holy crap I just tried it out on one of my f/4 lenses, Astro images. It did an absolutely amazing job. The iso was set at 2500 and with a 36 on the slider it looks almost perfect. Just a hint of noise with extremely sharp details. I am so impressed it’s like real detail not fake sharpness. Good job adobe it’s exactly what I needed, I can’t afford any new lenses and love Astro photography. My world just got so much better!
Once again, I agree with you. I believe is because I use the same process for post processing. I do with the Topaz denoise in the end and only with a mask, for removing artifacts(halo) from edges, for example, or only for the sky, etc. The important thing is know what we are doing.
Excellent video Nick. I appreciate how Adobe is not always the first to market with the latest technology, but when they do, they do it right.
Thank you for the video. Helpful to save me time when I end up having to do the same comparison for my self.
Very well explained. Thank you for clarifying the smart object business. I was wondering about that.
There have been a plethora of videos about the new Denoise feature of LR/ACR, but none of them address the issues that you identified, Nick. This is the best of its kind - not a surprise, though. Thank you!
You will notice that most of those other videos, all had early access to the release as well... probably not a coincidence.
Excellent review. Thank you.
thanks Nick, great video as always. I did have a go at using LR to do denoise on a previously edited raw file i.e. last step. it estimated 3 minutes for 25%, though i didn't time it. it was an improvement on the manual NR
Awesome video Nick! I think Topaz Photo is still a bit behind Denoise AI but it's been a while since I've done that comparison myself. I was impressed with Lr compared to Denoise in an Aurora pic of mine too. A touch more noise in Denoise compared to Lr, but didn't see artifacts like what you saw with Photo AI. Adobe even mentioned in their release notes (if I remember correctly) to run their Denoise first so from a workflow perspective, that makes a difference for all the reasons you mentioned. Maybe they'll address that in a future release.
Great review and comments!
Very interesting... I've been debating about getting DXO Pure Raw, but now I'm putting on the breaks. At this point in my photo editing, I think I can get at least 90% of what I need from my Topaz Denoise or Adobe. Options are always nice, but maybe when I'm in a better justifiable situation. I'm glad you pointed that out.
Great video Nick thanks for your thoughts they are genuine and respected and give the viewer a true perspective from a real and continuous user of these plugins. Cheers!
Interesting comparison, thanks Nick. Hopefully Adobe will find a work around to make it work on adjustment layers as well as RAW ones. Baby steps I guess. 😊
Great comparison very helpful, thank you.👍
I've heard multiple people say that DxO DEEP Prime XD gives what they call "spidery" results on night-sky images. The more regular DxO DEEP Prime, w/o XD, will probably give better results (and be a little bit faster).
Agree, the XD version is very aggressive, I think the results for DXO would have been much better using Deep Prime. I did a comparison a couple of days ago and though Pure Raw 3 (Deep Prime only) was better looking than Topaz Denoise and the new LR version.
Agreed. DxO DeepPrimeXD for Fur/Feathers and other such finely detailed textures, and regular DeepPrime (sans XD) on everything else. This DXO PureRaw 3 combo Significantly beats Adobe's new Denoise AI feature.
Also agree. Also, you can't just choose the XD setting and then complain that it's too much and there's no way to set the amount of denoising.
Editing the 4/23/23 aurora show this week I did a deep dive with PureRaw 3 and LR denoise. DeepPrimeXD is unusable with night sky. Very annoying. DeepPrime does a pretty awesome job, arguably identical to LR denoise(which does a shockingly good job in its first iteration with night skies) but DXO has a slight advantage in the blacks/shadows of the foreground, and seemed to process faster than LR so I ended up going PureRAW 3 DeepPrime to process that whole timelapse.
Thnx Nick. Very useful.
Great video Nick - after seeing this and having just installed a trial version of DXO RAW III I tried my own tests and found that the outcome was variable. In some cases, low light and very high noise I found Adobe to work best. In better light but higher noise I found a mix but typically DXO came out ahead. It tends to suggest to me that if you can afford it then its not bad to have DXO and Topaz in your toolbox.
I found the same. For me a product like Topaz even turned down always added sharpness to the subject which seems to appeal to many wildlife photographers BUT I can always spot the "topaz look" when those photos are shared and to me gives a cut and pasted look. Adobe seems to have done a great job allowing us to be more in control and still use some NR.
Thank you for this video, answers all my questions😊
Thank your for your work. Well done!
Is there a difference to see beween the results of Topaz Sharpen AI / Denoise AI and Topaz Photo AI?
(Maybe I missed something in your video.)
Thanks for this Nick - great video. I used LR Denoise for the first time today on some wildlife shots and was very impressed. I did encounter the problem you mention regarding PS. Here's hoping Adobe will fix that.
Excellent assessment. Thank you.
Excellent non-biased view with the best work flow.
Another fantastic video. Thanks for doing such a real-world kind of comparison of the three. Well, four, really, as my experience is the same as others have mentioned. On critical tasks, Topaz Denoise AI often outperforms Topaz Photo AI. Maybe it is because one has more control over the process?
Thanks for this video Nick, always so informative. Is it just me or did it look like each plugin handled color differently in side-by-side mode?
Very informative Nick.
Is it possible to duplicate your finished image layer in PS and then open that layer in Camera Raw via the filter tab at the top... Thus allowing you to de-noise at the end of the process.
Andrew.
Hi Nick, great video. I'm finding, on wildlife images at least, that leaving lens softness OFF in DXO PR3 gives a better result - adding the sharpening back in Lightroom. Where the new Lr just steals the edge is on the very finest details, which DXO tends to 'smudge' it.
Thanks again for the great video.
Great comparison. When I was doing a lot more astro and deep space imaging- which is all about noise, it was very common to do noise reduction early on and usually mask it into the darker areas. The theory is to reduce noise early so when you boost brightness with curves ect, then you are boosting a clean image rather than boosting noise and then trying to get rid of heaps more noise at the end.
A great comparison Nick. I too use the noise reduction at the end of my editing in photoshop, but I do it on the entire image. Do you think you would be able to do a video on using denoise ai using a mask as you suggested in this video, that would be so useful. Thanks. 👍
Great information! Thanks!
Did I see you check your wrist during the PureRaw processing as if you were wearing a watch? 😜 thanks for doing a great video and going through it all!
Watching your vids and thinking about my editing process I feel like I am working two tin cans with some string and your are on a Sat phone :)
Regardless I do appreciate this non endorsed information and always enjoy your perspective and insight into all aspects of Photography.
great video,thanks
Wow...great comparison video. (I knew you'd like that update that smart objects could be opened as layers in PS!!)
I really like the fact that Adobe added this feature finally... I was about to buy DXO 3 but now that we have this option I see absolutely no point in it anymore and i`m sure it will improve even more. Thanks for this comparison.
Nick, great video review of new Lightroom & Camera Raw noise reduction feature. You mention that you like to do noise reduction near the end of your post-processing and using PS for your other edits prior negates the ability to use this feature. I like to roundtrip back to LR after doing my PS work since I prefer the easier and comparable printing capabilities of LR. Couldn't you just use this denoise feature AFTER doing yr PS edits by roundtripping back to LR prior to say printing or other output?
This is the comparison I've been waiting for since I saw about the update to LRC. I was on the verge of buying Topaz.
Same here!
I was on the fence about getting some denoise software since I felt Lightroom was adequate enough with the OG slider for most of my photography.
However, I was leaning towards DXO. Both Topaz and DXO are amazing, but now that Lightroom has this same function, no more separate program for me! The money I save can go into paying for my Adobe subscription. Lol
Well, it depends on who is doing the review I have found. Dave Kelly, whom I highly respect and have been watching for forever in his comparison between Topaz Denoise AI and Lightroom's Denoise AI felt that Lightroom did a quite good job - not the qualification in my tone - but wasn't as good as DeNoise.
Probably because Topaz will give you greater personal and precise control - also see my comment here about running through an image twice with Topaz Denoise AI that Dave Kelly recommended - it works very well in my opinion to give an even greater improvement than one time through the program.
They have free trial downloads that would allow you to try and see what you think.
Gosh Nick, when I use Topaz AI, I love the fact that there is so much variability through the combined de-noise and the sharpening, you have sliders and softness/hardness choices. I still prefer to use Topaz. And just to say - I love watching your videos, you're just a well informed brother on the other side of the screen, thanks!
My opinion is that LRC + PS Denoise,
is a first release,
I am sure that later updates will add options like Jpg / tiff / etc,
and maybe other features.
I'm with you on de-noising at the end; that's what I do with Topaz. I wasn't aware you really have to do it in the beginning for Lightroom. I'll have to play around with the new LR to see what works best for me.
Very straight forward video. Thanks a lot. One could denoise in LR at the end, bring it in as a layer and stamp it in through a luminosity mask. But I totally agree that it should work on a smart object. Denoise at the beginning vs. the end of the editing process can be a hot topic I guess. But I will give it a shot. Makes sense what you say. And I was wondering about the topaz app vs standalone/plugin as well.. Thought that the standalone would give more control and better result. Hence your update!
Great video I bought my topaz d noise just few days before adobe introduced d noise in LR. ❤
Great info. Thanks.
Thanks Nick, good run down. I was getting 10sec for a 50mp image with Adobe, but I have a chunky graphics card in a eGPU hooked up to my laptop.
Great comparison, Nick! Have to assume Camera Raw will get the new tool soon.
Camera Raw and Lightroom got the feature added at the same time.
Thanks Nick, none of these let you do noise reduction selectively which is my preferred way, noise is more obvious in skies and soft backgrounds where I can apply it far more than detail areas. For high ISO images I now use ON1 NoNoise as it has sliders for the different types of noise and also crucially sharpen sliders as well, so I can tweak between denoise and sharpen for the best result. For my selective noise reduction I would use this programme concentrating on the main subject and then back in Lightroom select those skies and backgrounds for further treatment. Like the programmes you tested it often gets artefacts in out-of-focus areas and it really hates mist so you need to be selective in use.
Outstanding! ❤😀
Excellent video - great to see a proper unbiased comparison of the features of each software. For me, the gains I'd get from Topaz aren't enough to justify the additional cost over Lightroom. Thanks for saving me a few dollars!!!!!
Nice one Nick. Really appreciate you doing that comparison.
1: I didn’t know there was an update in Lightroom 🤪
2: you just saved me downloading the other two programs 😄👌
I am well and hope you are also mate 🍺
I wonder if you use specific Linear camer profiles with Adobe deNoise, would you get better results? I have read that the best time to do any clean up in PS is in the beginning and not a stamped layer. I use LR for basic edits and then move to PS as there is specific area control. I have Topaz DeNoise AI which is unfortunately going away. Do you have a video on your preferred noise reduction workflow in PS, paid or otherwise. I now use a Sony A7r3a paired w a Sigma 16-28 F2.8 lens. Certainly less noise than canon or Fuji. Thanks for an excellent video
Nick, have you ever noticed that topaz seniors changes the color temp or you image after processing. In some setting I get alone of green or cyan added. Just wondering if you’ve noticed a similar thing.
Great video!!
Great non biased video! Hopefully Adobe watches this and makes some changes.
Great video, I'm a relatively new user of both Topaz AI and DXO Mark, and have only tested Lightroom Denoise. I shoot a lot of sports and the clients wants lots of pictures , so the amount of pics often numbers between 2-300 . Obviously this is time consuming so I tried batch editing with topaz and found that it was not ideal both with regards to performance and output. Crashes often, limited amount of images in one batch. Also, as noted, the default settings are quite aggressive, even when dialing back the AI defaults. I have tried DXO Prime on a couple of shoots and found the results quite nice, certainly not as good as you can get by editing individually in Topaz, but it is way less prone to create artifacts, distort faces and reduce sharpness (Topaz default). It takes about an hour to go through 250 images. So to me I Topaz and DxO have different use cases. It's going to be interesting to see how Lightroom Denoise performs along this spectrum.
11:06 thats because the imported version will get the standard sharpening from LR - you need to turn the sharpening in LR down to zero for the other ones. But I also like the LR-Denoise the most!
great video (... as usual) but have a question. I use LR for general & high level adjustment and then I go to PS to make all necessary fine editing (also with use of TK luminosity plug in). I see that noise reduction can be my last step after I save image from PS in LR. Then the noise reduction can be the last step in the workflow. Is this this the right thinking ?
Thank you for addressing the question I had on someone else's video. I like to use Topaz as a filter on a layer as you demonstrated. I hope Adobe takes notice and makes this available as a filter on a PS layer like we can with Topaz. Thank you so much for this review. I and I'm sure many others appreciate you!!! I hope Adobe is listening.
One thing I have noticed is that Adobe engineers listen to requests... I will do my best to put a bug in their ear so we can use this denoise feature on Stamped layers and smart object layers!
@@NickPage Thanks Nick!!! I do love your wildlife photos as much as I love your landscape. I also love your pics of your pup 🙂
Topaz is the market leader in that space and still by some margin in my opinion - particularly for wildlife.
Based on workflow I agree… Lightroom equals it in regards to IQ
Really helpful!
Fantastic video! You also can't use the denoise on Panos that you stitched in LR.
Curious to see how this compares to Luminars NoiseAI. I've been using Luminar for basically that
This is also something I was playing around with. You have to reduce the noise in each individual frame before stitch into a panel. Definitely not ideal.
Hi Nick. Thanks for another informative video ! I get that you prefer to do the denoise at the end so that you can see how it affects the image as you have edited it. But my understanding (could well be incorrect!) is that the DxO algorithm uses the raw un-demosaiced data to better identify the noise, so they have to do that at the beginning of the workflow. Of course the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and if that was a big deal you'd expect to see DxO knock the ball out of the park in the denoise shoot-out, which it doesn't. In my experience it does do a better job than Lr, and as a CaptureOne user I need a better denoise than is provided in the basic software, so for now I'm using DxO. But keeping an eye on the competition!!
I’m a hobbyist so I should say from the start that ultimate image quality isn’t a must have for me. I use Capture One rather than Adobe LR, simply because of my Fuji Raw files which seem to render better in Capture One otherwise I’m sure I would have gone the LR route. I have the ON1 No Noise AI plug in which integrates well with Capture One but they’re not really there yet with the noise reduction, lots of artefacts and weird stuff going on. I was going to buy the DXO Pure Raw 3 plug-in but instead opted to buy DXO Photo Lab 6 which has Deep Prime and Deep Prime XD built in. I find this gives much more control over the amount of noise reduction and after sharpening applied compared to the Pure Raw 3 plug in, more on par with LR’s new NR, in case any one’s interested. I can then export the file as a DNG to Capture One if I feel the need. Thanks for your comparison, it seemed very balanced.
Great comparisons Nick. Maybe the lesson from these examples is that Adobe effectively separates the noise reduction from sharpening whereas we turn over more control when we use either of Topaz or DXO. I don’t have DXO, I use Topaz Denoise AI, mostly for birds and wildlife. Up until this Adobe update I was very pleased with Topaz, still am. But my own comparisons on ISO 10000 shots of Brewers blackbird show LR Denoise looked better than Topaz.
And it’s only going to get better with updates, the big advantage of Adobes subscription approach, including your bugbear of application to smart objects.
Cheers, Nick. Best review of the new feature of the many, many I’ve seen so far.
It would be interesting to have you provide more use cases on this. I use Topaz Denoise vs 2.4.2 and love it for wildlife and sports photography. I can still control the level of noise reduction and sharpening, minimizing halo effects or over processing the image. Also Lightroom doesn't provide this level of adjustment to the noise and appears to have no adjustment for the sharpening (within this tool). Based on this video I wouldn't switch to Lightroom Denoise for these use cases in my workflow. Appreciate your unbiased assessment on these Denoise products. Keep rockin Nick!
I was already feeling like the video was getting too long otherwise I would have. For me personally I prefer the Denoise Function to only remove noise.. I have many ways I can sharpen details and add contrast, and would prefer them to be separate and more controllable. one of the things I always recommend is to try and sneak up on results through multiple steps (that can be undone, masked out or faded out) Rather than try to get there all in one step.. because if something in that step is over done.. you cant change one without the other.. or it has to be completely redone.... if that makes sense.
@@NickPage Totally makes sense. I've been watching your videos for a couple of years now so sounds familiar! I've utilized many of your techniques into my workflow and truly appreciate the knowledge you share. I don't always follow your exact methods but in the end I know I'm learning something and growing as a photographer. Being from WA myself I'm hoping one of these days to get to partake in one of your workshops. Thanks again. Have a great day.
Dxo Raw 3 for Fuji's RAF files compared to LR is a game changer. It's like I bought a new camera and the most expensive lens available. I bought the package deal with the Nik collection, and even though it is not listed, when you do that they throw in DxO Photo Lab for free.
Agree DXO for Fuji users as Lightroom demosaicing for xtrans files is so poor. I have the trial version and have been impressed with the detail …. Haven’t used it for noise reduction, more for getting the best detail
This is one reason I sold all my Fuji gear and moved to Sony
thank you!!
It is done like that is because the best place to perform denoise is at the step of demosaicing file (that's why you get DNG file as result, that is demosaiced image). So you apply just a little bit of NR with Adobe AI to have cleaner "meat" to work with, and then finish it off with your usual workflow later. That is the best of both worlds. And about your last point where you said that if you use Photoshop you can't do this in ACR - of course you can. LR and ACR use the same engine to demosaic and convert RAW data into pixels. If you don't have AI denoise under Enhance image feature in ACR, you need to update it to latest version.
Good Job
The best video I have seen on LR Denoise. I have been having problems with LR running on my computer for a year or so, don't know what is wrong. LR Denoise won't run on my system at this time. I have found Topaz Photo AI works best with a TIFF instead of a RAW file but as you mention, Denoise can be better. Someday I hope to have a new computer so LR works better for me.
Did you use DXO Deep Prime xd or just Deep Prime? I know a lot of people say xd leaves a lot of artifacts and they prefer just using Deep Prime. Also DXO PhotoLab that you can also use as a plugin you can change the luminance don't know why they left that feature out of DXO PureRaw?
Informative. Maybe that will be implemented in an update in a few months. One advantage for us poor lightroom users is that it’s one less program I need to buy.
I actually disagree that noise removal is better post processing than at the starting, well at least for high ISO/very noisy images. The more manipulation you do on noisy images, the more that noise is amplified and I found the less effective the noise reduction is or more aggressive you have to apply post manipulations. I certainly found this with my aurora images. I tried processing them in Topaz DeNoise AI both on the initial RAW then adjusting the resultant dng and running images through DeNose AI post LR edditing. In all cases so far the former produced better results. I can see why the software companies suggest this too, as it's much better to edit a cleaner image than a noisy one. I know this perhaps won't be aplicable to all images, but it certainly has been a game changer for my high ISO noisy image workflow.
Do you ever open high iso/noisy images with the camera's native software and do noise reduction there first? I've seen some folks suggest that the native software handles the noise the best. And then you can add additional NR with LR or the other plugins as needed, of course.
I dont, simply because most of those softwares are just painful to use. "most" of the time I do a little better job in the field so I dont have quite as extreme noise in the image as I did in this video
Topaz De is the beast. No comparison for flexibility AND adaptation to different images. The adaptation is key. There are times when different files take different noise models and tweaks.
Thank you for the demonstration. Topaz Photo AI, as you know, is a 'work in progress' updated weekly (Thursday evening). Your video features version 1.2.7. The current version is 1.3.1... Is this change to Topaz Photo AI an improvement? 🤔
That is Fair, I probably should have updated it before doing the comparison
Nick, could you do a walkthrough on how you use topaz in PS at the end of a wildlife edit? I've been doing mine through Lr at the beginning of my workflow and have never been overly happy with the results for the reasons you stated being that it's too much to do to the image on the front end.
I have a video where I demonstrate exactly that!
you got some Gretsch stop sign badges there? Nice! my setup also. 3 racks on top and only 1 floor, but I have to bass drums. I love 3 racks
Even tho Topaz Denoise does a better job than Adobe's, we have to realize this is Adobe's debut. Almost feels like a beta release and already has major potential. I'm sure they'll consider a lot of feedback as these AI finishers really do wrap up the workflow nicely. Looking forward to added control, hopefully a sharpener AI and for goodness sake, allowing it on a separate layer whenever the need lol. That threw* me into a loop when I was doing comparison in Photoshop. Thanks for the video!
Good video
Awesome
Okay. I have to say it. I love your timer music. 😂
If you do denoise in the end, wouldn't your color adjustments be "invalidated"?
DxO say that their AI de-noise process is "before" the de-mosaicing process. I think that also applies to how Adobe is doing it, and that _might_ explain why you have to do it as a first process in Lightroom. However, DxO Photolab Elite lets you add the Deep Prime AI de-noising when exporting the image, so it is obviously possible to do it as a final step.
I have used DxO Photolab 4 Elite (which includes their Deep Prime AI noise reduction) and never seen those sharpening halos that you see. I think these may be introduced with the lens softness correction option you seem to add. In DxO Photolab it is also possible to control the level of noise reduction, apparently unlike in Pure RAW.
Anyway, I am looking forward to testing out the AI noise reduction in Adobe ACR versus the one I used so far (DxO Deep Prime).