Hey, this is Seth, President of HH Catamarans. A couple comments!: 1) First off, thanks for creating this video! You are helping many people understand the true differences in yacht design in an entertaining way. Bravo! 2) The HH44 data is correct (125.3 m2 SA). The Hulls are roughly 50% carbon fiber, so this little boat has a light displacement compared to these Fiberglass boats. Plus she's strong (Epoxy) and can handle a tall rig. 3) As for the HH50 (also Epoxy), your data was incorrect (and please use our HH52 as we are phasing out the HH50)! Online you will find on our website the correct HH50 Sail Area to use is 137.9 m2 (not 118.9). And our HH52 is larger at 161.84 m2. 4) MOST IMPORTANTLY, true Performance is not dictated by Ratios. If the vessel is build strong enough (Epoxy, Aramid Stays/Forestay, Carbon Fiber Hulls/Rig/Crossbeam/Daggerboards, Rudders, etc), you can keep pushing the boat where others need to reef down their large Sail Areas with Aluminum masts (ie Outremer). A deeper HH Daggerboard will help you sail a tighter upwind angle by several degrees. A curved Daggerboard will REDUCE displacement on an HH and provide lift, improving performance! This is where true performance shines through in real world applications and in Velocity Prediction Programs (Polars). 5) Manufacturers are required to be within 10% of their claimed "Lightship Displacement" for ISO Certification, but no one is regulating this industry (other than CZcamsrs :). And most importantly, the more expensive yachts come standard with more items which is therefor included in the "Lightship" calc. On an HH52-SC, for example, we include items like an Anchor, Anchor Chain, 50,000 BTUs of Air Conditioning, 4,900 Watts of Solar Panels, Sails, Lines, etc, so it is not not a true "Apples to Apples" comparison and should be treated as indicative only. A better (more fair) comparison might be using everyone's Max Displacement (if they will even share that data). 6) Correction: Balance produces using "Vinylester barrier coat and polyester resin." HH Catamarans are one of the few in your list producing in Epoxy for exactly the reasons you are saying, but Vinylester does not mean Polyester and can be used for its adhesive properties or if a smooth painted finish (without warping) is required. A Carbon Fiber and Epoxy HH hull could last 50-100 years if cared for properly and should retain its value longer (far longer) than a Polyester or Vinylester boat. 7) You get what you pay for. If you want Carbon Hulls/Mast/Daggers/Rudders, Aramid Rigging, Epoxy Resin, cutting edge design, comfort and performance, then be prepared to pay for it! Again, great video, looking forward to seeing you out there on the new boat!
I recall the gentleman from @SAILINGintoFREEDOM saying he would discuss this with other CZcamsrs. Pity he decided not to do so. Or, is this the typical time when things go “private massage”? Anyway, well done video, certainly appropriate response fro you Seth. Although HH has more great listed under lightship than others, one must start somewhere with comparisons. This calls for a CZcams race. Three crew, same provisions, let’s say one of the Caribbean circuit races with rum involved.
Hey there Seth, hope all is well! Correction to your point #6 which is inaccurate. The Balance 526 can be built with up to 100% carbon fiber and its displacement is 1,500 kg lighter than the even what is listed on the charts he provided (which would be more on par with the HH52 when comparing apples to apples). There is no polyester used on that model that he ranked at #4 overall, it's only the lower cost model the 482 that is manufactured in the manner you described. (Rankings are totally subjective though and there isn't a factor in his charts for payload capacity, luxury, interior volume, or overall livability) Totally agree though, you get what you pay for and the HH's are fantastic catamarans that are a great choice for those in the market. Cheers!
@@kirkb3473 Good point! If an item is not Standard, then many of these boats allow you to upgrade to better materials too. Ratios are great but it is really hard to compare Apples to Apples in this industry. People complain that a Balance or an HH might cost a lot of money, but you do usually get what you pay for (I wish it meant our margins were larger, but Balance builds a great boat and we all need to compete)! Good correction.
@@TheSailingFamily Competition is definitely a good thing for the consumer (not so great for margins!). Where HH (and Balance to a lesser extent) gets penalized is the standard boat includes most of the stuff that is optional on other brands (and is included in their lightship displacement numbers which hurts them in performance comparisons like this), the quality is also to a much different standard. There is so much B.S. out there, customers really need to do their due diligence to know what they are buying. Looking at a boat's base price doesn't tell you anything. I equate it to when companies advertise what the "low monthly payment" is...not how much it actually cost you to own.
As a future owner of a 1370, I picked the boat not because I wanted the ultimate performance boat. I wanted to cruise with decent performance, in comfort, at a cost I can afford and on a reliable boat (no bulk-head issues, creaking, cracking, expensive systems). I think Seawind has the best balance in these 4 areas.
@@brentpenfold1795 Thank you. I still have 14 months to wait (4 years from when I put my deposit) but so far looks like its worth it. The first boat just launched two days ago and will be going through trials. Anxious to see how it does.
Congrats on the new boat! The 1370 definitely looks like a nice cruiser. You must be hull number 10 or lower if yours will be done in the next 14 months. Are you sailing it from there or having it shipped?
I'm not any longer in the market for a cat but I find this fascinating. We owned 2 "value" production cats way back in the early days (40-50 years ago) and I wish we had all this knowledge at the time. Some of the issues you highlight were problems we encountered then.
HI mate, your Odisea 48 being a Mumby 48 in supercharge mode is going to be a Great Cat that will be easier for peoples to obtain and will serve as a base mark for all others. The one to beat, the one that everyone will talk about. Great work captain!
Plukky my lad, you have really excelled yourself. Well researched and equally well presented it was a joy to watch. One of your best even without the girls. Thank you.
A really informative and educational video Plukky. Loved it. Looks like your Odisea 48 will be well placed to enjoy commercial success within the performance category. :o)
Love your approach to everything in all your vids. Although I can never afford any of these boats, I do appreciate the masterclass in high value shopping! Think, compare ,then buy!
Great video and nothing to critique, thank you for putting this together to dispel the bullshit that is out there! We are building a Balance 526 now and it firmly fits about middle of the road which is why we picked it, respectable performance but with an element of luxury & comfort that makes the wife happy too, which it tough to put on a graph! Keep up the great work & looking forward to seeing the progress on your build 👍🏻
@@SAILINGintoFREEDOM they’ve been great to work with, really stand up group of people! There’s another South African Cat that would be a good addition to your list, the Kinetic 54. Would be interesting to see how that fits with the others. Cheers!
Thanks for doing this , oh Pluckmaster. Well done. As I’m just this week getting off and home from a partial ocean delivery of a Bali 5.4 straight out of the factory in Canet , France to the Canary Islands, this vid is great timing for me to see with my new curiosity of cats. The factory we picked the boat up at, I believe, is where some Catana cats are built.
Thank you for this video!! This is exactly what we need to know. I could talk about this all day. Cutting through the hype and the name to the data. Love it!!
The price level would also be more interesting as parameter if the level of commitment to service after sale, the amount of years the selling company have existed and how they help previous owners to sell their second hand boats, the second hand value etc. Also it would be great to get an idea of the level of available modifications, and how these are charged. Great video, thanks for posting!
One other intersting metric for catamarans is a measure of rigidity - simply put you jack the front of one hull up until the other hull starts to lift - pretty obviously measures how much flex there is between the hulls in a seaway and the damage/wear done on a cat's by sailing it. Look into it it's mind blowing.
I know I'm biased (and they're still new, so not a ton of on the water information), but I still want to give a nomination to Max Cruise Marine!! A great value for their 44 ft boats, and based on our test sails in Vietnam, they are damn fast! The owner, Terry, just sailed his newly completed hull from Vietnam to Thiland and hit speeds of 22 knots. Anyway, just heard about your project last week from Ryan and Sophie - we wish you the best of luck!!
Hey MJ, by all means. Send me all the EPIJ measurements, mail sail A, true racing wt and light ship displ , max wt and LWL and BCL to peter@elcanoworldchallenge.org
Thanks Plucky, My apologies. Your normally carefree demeanor belies the technical expertise with which you are able to present the real life significance for the various comparisons I did appreciate the fact that HH jumped into the fray after ignoring your initial request for clarification of their specs. It will be nice if a few more manufacturers are willing to offer some insight relative to their products. No doubt that performance and weight and strength are closely related. But, I did find a bit of redemption in the HH argument that there is more to strength and performance than just using expensive materials….time (and money) will tell. One bit of wisdom I find to have endured over the years is the manufacturing philosophy that : Good, Fast, Cheap….you can only pick two. Thanks again.
Fun video, well done. As many commenters point out, it's hard to make like-for-like comparisons with new-build numbers without getting deep into the weeds of fit-out and customization. And there's another angle too - I sail a Chris White Atlantic 57 built with S-glass, carbon, kevlar, and epoxy, with a carbon rig. A very stiff and durable high-end composite build. And - the usual insurers puke all over it because it's not a standard bendy toy.....
A lot of work went into this presentation so thank you for that. Methinks youre on the cusp of something great here. Cant wait to see the unveiling of the design and in particular the daggerboards and rudders.
Great job Peter, at making a dry subject interesting. I watched the whole thing and I can't even afford a boat! I agree with your attitude tword saftey. Our weather is only getting crazier and you want to know you're in the strongest boat possible. Same reason fast is crucial, to avoid storms.
@5:26 Plucky, I'd love to see a re-analysis of these numbers with any reasonable amount of circumnavigation/family enjoyment gear added to the equations. Very few of us are going to sail around on empty boats so let's, for argument sake, add 2.5 tons of equipment. Dive compressors, a 365 pound generator, SCUBA gear, kite gear, perhaps additional fuel in Jerry cans, a water maker, fishing gear, a family sized dingy with a 25hp outboard, water skiis/wake board, food/provisions, and most importantly cases upon cases of rum. Then lets see how fast everyone is! My gut is telling me that the performance boats are going to have a tough time and the larger displacement boats aren't going to notice much. This is where the rubber meets the asphalt for buyers and I think we'll see a lot more boats around the 23-25 mark. Thanks for this hard work, very enjoyable to listen to!
I actually have a chart showing fully loaded and it is much the same but of course you can't put 6.5 t on an ODC48. My friends Mumby is overloaded and he still under sails it at 8.5 knots with very little canvas aloft. Depends on how much gear you have... If you have lots of gear just buy a house on water and suffer the consequences. Remember these boats don't handle weather at all.... Loading them up doesn't improve them and you will get into trouble guaranteed
Totally agreed with Peter here. For the same cruising weight added, the boat that started lighter will still be well faster. Of course, any light weight boat will have a limitation on how much you can fit. Something like my Mumby is a good example. It's a full time live aboard with all the cruising goodies including the dive compressor, and admittedly, we're probably a little over weight. But she's still faster than 99% of boats locally. She'll sail at 10knots all day with out pushing, or in the mid to high teens if I want to wind her up a bit.
Good one. But the alu vs composite; very hard to fix alu out from a yard - composite can be repaired anywhere if you have some resin and fiber.... Those ratios are basic - add stability, type of mast (alu-carbon-rotating-fixed) - type of keel - then you get the real potential. Could also be very interesting to see the Neels, Rapidos and Dragonfly 40 in this context.
This video should end up going viral in the boating community. Lot's of great information other than the price of the new Odisea 48. Sailing Life on Jupiter in 2015 paid around 300k for their brand new, custom to your liking, mast, sails, engine's, electronics, batteries, everything. I've heard that Tim Mumby is charging a little bit more now due to inflation but THE ODISEA 48 IS MORE THAN TWICE THE COST for basically the same boat. That's $427,600.00 USD more than what Jamie paid for his Cyber 48. I could get two Cyber 48's and have $127,600.00 left over for the same price of the Odisea 48. Why??? Is this due to the labor rates in Greece verses the Philippines or is this pure greed like what HH is charging for a Chineese made boat where the labor rates are a dollar a day?
A lifetime of cruising and owning and cruising 5 different cruising boats, professional ferry captains and ocean sailing instructor…………I agree with you completely. One on the boats that I captained was a 70’ all aluminum Power cat ferry --Morelli Melvin designed. Aluminum absolute first choice.
Iam in the process of building aluminum catamaran myself. I own a metal fabrication business, I am not a boat builder by profession. I definitely like the Mumby cyber 48 but I think the design could use improvements and updates as it has became a dated design and I must have a larger boat. I am planning on doing many unconventional things with my build. I have been working with naval architects and engineers for the past year on finalizing the design. I have finalized some of the design aspects and I am going with a length of 62 feet and that is to accommodate a unique design feature. I am incorporating a large lifting platform on the rear of the boat to accommodate a icon a5 amphibious airplane which is 23" long and 8'-6" wide and a weight of 1500 lbs. The original design was for a vertical lifting platform basically the size of the entire cockpit but I have changed the design to a platform that is hinged on one side with winches or hydraulics to raise and lower the ramp. While on anchor or docked the airplane can be placed in the water to regain cockpit space. I am also doing a unconventional hybrid power and propulsion system that I have designed utilizing a gas turbine auxiliary power unit to generate electricity and hydraulic power. I am planning to use rotating electric pod thrusters that will retract into the hulls which can also function as generators. Main power generation will be with solar panels and I am going to install as many solar panels as possible and I am going to tie flexible solar panels to the wings of the airplane to increase power generation. The wings fold up for storage or transport so in calmer weather I will unfold the wings for more surface. I would like to have 10kw of solar or more if possible. I am going to use winches to deploy the dagger boards and I want to automate as my controls as possible to reduce my workload due to the fact that I am a below the knee amputee. I am going for the maximum performance possible while accepting the tradeoffs that come with the features I want but performance is the number 2 design priority. All systems will have mechanical backups so any failures will not be critical.
Wow really valuable video !!! any info from someone experienced like you is gold value !!! Thank you Peter you open my eyes for few subjects .... only problem because I want buy a monohull ...:) any way Plucky its worth watch you even if you waiting for rain .....:P greetings from PL Al
Great video! Looks like a ton of work went into this. I feel your pain in getting hold of the prices in the industry. I understand that the price depends on what options you go for, but the manufacturers could at least pull together some examples (Coastal Cruising, Med package, Bluewater Cruising, Stuck-in-Marina ;) ). There are some exceptions.........
You didnt do the Cat to reef ratio!!! Can it survive plucky driving into a reef at night!!!! That's the boat I want reef proof lol Love your work mate!!!
Plukkonos, Your new boat is going to be the best lightweight performance catamaran on the market and I believe that you will be able to complete the challenge! I want one!!!
@@oznutcase That's OK because I can't afford the $727,600 price tag. I'll have to build one from the plans and cnc cut files which will take me some time to do.
probably not making a lot of friends in the boat manufacturing world but this is really great information for anyone interested in a cruising cat. Now if you eventually drown freediving we'll have to wonder forever if you had an HH anchor tied to your waist... ;)
Wow peoples, who'd have thunk after watching you for years that secretly you were a very intelligent and insightful designer and not just a loveable buff head larrikin youtuber.... This is by far the best comparison yet... I note your stats on aluminum.... I not sure ali is the answer but it makes me research a bit more... Great info on materials as well BTW.. I'm a performance guy so I love the dagger boards and i.m a fan of barrel style rudder cassettes with rudder blades that can easily lift out of the center.... When do you envision your new boat be launched ...?
Ref GRP, that was very informative, thank you, Plucky. Is there any chance of you doing a similar video covering aluminum and the corrosion caused by dissimilar metals eg my buddy drops a metal fish hook in the bilge while not being aware of the consequences.
Hey! You missed out on Pescott Catamarans!! I'm on my second one and they are one of the best sailing catamarans around and.... designed and built in Australia-- alas not in full production-- is this one of your criteria? The other Australian designer are Robin Chamberlin, Tony Grainger and Lock Crowther...? Your boats in the top 10 are HUGE money... The Pescotts and the others are much more reasonable on price--and the sailing is incredible!
Great work. Number correction is getting necessary, like you just can't trust a sales pitch. Can I just add all the sails I can fly at once to calculate sail area on my ketch? Will have to come up with my own silly numbers.
My man, thank you for this breakdown. I feel having this information will tell the sellers that they won't be able to try and feed me bullshit regarding substandard builds. Have you done a video about aluminum catamarans that are built for blue sea sailing?
A very interesting video here as I also keep a spreadsheet with all the metrics. Few comments: 1) There is no single Odisea48 on the water to have real-world data about performance. I guess yours will be the first Guiney pig, (and I'm sure it will be a great performer just because it's aluminium). That's why these claims should be taken with a pinch of salt. 2) Odisea's sail area is a bit too large for its size. Reefing it and re-reefing it and re-reefing it again back-and-forth will be a nightmare, unless they have in-mast roller or in-boom roller, which would reduce the performance anyway. ORC50 has a relatively large sail area, but they also have a beam of 8.60m at 15.24m LWL. If Oddisea48 with LWL 14.60m was to have such a ratio, it would need to have a beam of at least 8.12m, while it has 7.60m. 3) Performance of a catamaran is not only due to Displacement/SA, the design matters a lot. Hull Width At Waterline is very important measurement and something tells me Odisea is no much to Gunboat48, ORC50's 1.06m, and it's probably more in the Mumby48 range of 1.17m. Another important measurement for performance is Bridge Deck Clearance. Mumby48 has 88cm, ORC50 has 95cm, Gunboat has a whopping 1.3m, while Oddisea is 82cm. Positioning of the daggerboards is also important. Odisea's positioning of the daggerboards seems to have been chosen quite arbitrarily. Importantly, ORC50 hulls have a very unique shape (the way they enter the water) that make them unparalleled in terms of performance. If ORC50 was to be made out of aluminium (thicker at the bottom of the hull and thinner at the top, with carbon fiber roof and surface), I'm sure it would be the best performing cat out there, and probably hands down the BEST cat out there! 4) Now that I know that Odisea48 is $727,000, my interest in it has suddenly decreased. Mumby48 at ~$300,000 is still the best bang for one's hard-earned buck.
I happened to see you forgot about me slapping 2 monos together for a "Piggy Cat". Though slow as can be even with wind and flat seas the price performance ratio would beat all of that. At $20K tops for a 40 ft boat with 2 masts and 2 jibs and double the rope, don't forget about the keel, made of lead just for fun, and she weighs in at somewhere around 15 fatboy tons. Will she reach 7 knots giving her all that you've got? Dunno, but for sundowners at anchor (not racing at sea) she's more roomy than any cat and as fast (hic) as need be.
@@SAILINGintoFREEDOM They tried to qualify but I think they can break 10 knots surfing downwind on 20 ft seas so I'm pretty sure I'll own the "Piggy Cat" title, except for ?Lagoons? with the cracked cimpression box. Hard to hit 2 knots when the bottom of the mast is poking thru the bridge and acting as a leeboard. Somwhat are the "Cat" numbers for (gimme a sec) SA=2,000 sq ft / 200 sqm DISP=55,000 lbs / 24mt or after carving out the lead&getting DISP=30,000 / 13mt 2,000 sqft of sail on a 30,000 lb tri ...will it break 12 knots?
I have to ask your opinion on the Neel 51 ?? even though it doesn't fall the category and it's not on any of your SA/Disp and LWL graphs it's a performer with the Ridge mainstay I think. Great Job! Thanks for your video's ⛵️
Bloody good vid and info from an Aussie, spoken like it is. Did your homework and presented the results. No bullshit and if followed "No Worries mate" Thx Plucky. Matt from Canberra ACT (sorry Plucky)🤣🤣🤣
Great info and appreciate the research, my necks of the world, Long Beach, CA , very few slips available to fit a cat. Wish you the best and safe journeys.
Plukky, comparison on the HH solent is an interesting one. My understanding was that a solent is by design an overlapping cut? But is still a decent bit smaller than a genoa, because of its shorter luff and longer foot? Seems very difficult to compare these things! Another component I'm often aware of and speak with crew a lot about, is that you can have an average "performing" boat skippered by a wise, measured head kept safe ....a "high performance" boat managed by a ill-prepared skipper with bad decision making processes putting life and limb at great risk Looking forward to more of this type of vid from you mate! Best of luck with the build!
I am no expert, but it's a 100% or it should be a 100% and that's what I have been using to compare to be fair....so when it goes overlapping well then I had to look...thanks for the comment, high performance catamaran here we come
With the recent tweaks to Odisea 48's design it may be worth revisiting these numbers, particularly since construction has started and no doubt those interested may be considering a purchase?
Great info Plukky ….. I’m in the hunt for a live aboard cruising cat to do the QLD East coast which you know well. What I was looking at is now not what I’m looking at based on your apples to apples comparisons. I’m a numbers man so if the data’s correct from the builders (As we all know can be fudged to sell a product) the results don’t lie. Oh and very interesting point about the HH pricing, way up there for a Chinese/Asian production …. Struth must be some fat cats to feed !! Pretty sure old mate who owned the cat Archer is a marketing manager for them. Anywho time to find a floating home and yes I like the comforts too like a fridge or 3 😂.
How about a comparison of 40' catamarans taking into consideration an optimization of: performance, comfort and cost? I'd love to see that kind of analysis please.
Interesting video but I think some of the numbers are off a bit. Having looked at Balance, Outremer and HH recently and gone through pricing, the gaps between them were not inline with your graphs. With options the Balance 526 was more than the HH52, likewise the Outremer 55 was about the same price as the HH52 OC.
@@SAILINGintoFREEDOM we did walk throughs of the Balance, HH, Outremer, and Windello recently at the Cannes boat show if you're interested in seeing those boats. It's on our channel. We also shared some of our thoughts on the different boats.
It's definitely deceiving, for some reason HH calls their boat a 52 even though it's a 48' boat. The Balance 526 is actually almost identical in size to the HH55, so you really need to dig into the details, then there are about 376 other factors and subtleties to consider lol.
@@kirkb3473 the HH52 is 52' long, the 48' you refer to is the waterline length. I think it gets the full 52' of waterline when it's loaded up and the leeward hull is pushed down into the water. The HH52 is actually 57' overall. I can't wait for the first one to be launched next year.
@@pageadventures The HH's are all definitely spectacular boats, but when comparing the true size of the boat waterline and beam is what you use, it's also important to consider the beam of the boat, with a waterline is 3 feet shorter, and the beam is 3 feet narrower than the Balance 526, it is a significantly smaller boat with much less interior volume and locker storage but much finer hulls. Much more performance oriented for sure, but a little heavier considering their smaller size. I can't wait to see the first one too, it's going to be a very cool boat, cheers!
Humm... Your engineering persona is definitely messing with your cave man image. Very interesting data you have collected and presented here. I am not a boat guy, but I am an engineer so I really like the way you have analyzed this.
$727,600.00. Is that in USD? I was hoping that the price would be similar to the Mumby Cyber 48. I'm a little disappointed about that. I'll need to purchase the plans and cnc cut files and build it myself in order to afford it. I'm going to have to either learn how to weld aluminum or go to a country where the labor rates are affordable and have them weld it up for me. The rest I can do myself. Hopefully you'll be able to film the entire process of the build with all the technical details including the amount of time it takes to build and install each component and the prices of each item. I'm very much looking forward to the build series. Also; If I become a patron, will I get more detailed information?
Plukky, Which alloy have you chosen for your design? Are have you chosen more than one for it's properties, as to it's use(s)? With your design what are you valuing more, the materials corrosion resistance, strength, or moduli? Cheers! Fair Winds. Faithfully, James
What do you have against the HH44 amigo? Sail area is should be measured with go to sail. That is the Solent with an HH44. It is an interesting boat. Innovative, lightweight and fast. Yes crazy expensive. But cheap is always expensive in the long run?
Plukky I'm seriously impressed with this. I hope you start a debate as well would be fascinating to get other competing views i the mix. All very interesting. Thanks...
Another number that would be interesting is Slenderness Ratio (SLR) or Displacement Length Ratio (DLR), or alternately hull waterline length/hull WL Beam ratio (LWL/BWL)
Hey Plucky when u showed the SA/Displ & LWL ratio u showed the 1st cabin roof design proposed for the Odisea. If u re-do the sail area numbers with the lowered boom how does it compare then? Still 3rd?
I’ve thought for ages I’d go alloy and I like the David DeVilliers rigs but there is no data on them. I also like the look of the Wendell but with 5 kids in tow I’d go a triamaran for the extra hull, safety and speed but in alloy as a custom build. On price I reckon I’d still be well under an HH.😂
Capt'n Plukkynos, Would the Odisea 48 preform better if it was wider? I used to race Tornado and Nacra catamarans and have flipped and pitch poled many times. How do you determine the best width? Also, what gear is included in the Odisea 48 when you did the numbers for it? Is the anchor going to be located on the front crossbar or amidships? Could you also talk about the mast height and how you determine the perfect length of stick? Last thing on the price. Why is the Odisea 2 1/3 times the price of the Cyber 48? Thanks mate. Excellent work!!! Best video of the year!!!
I think you might be comparing prices to the cyber back in 2012. Its also a professional build. You might want to take a look at the welds on some of the Mumbys and see how they are built. I wouldv guess a Mumby now is much more than what Jamie's quoting in 2016
@@SAILINGintoFREEDOM Yes, I spoke to Jamie about the prices and he said that Tim Mumby was suggesting something like $375,000 from what I remember about the conversation a few months ago. Tim Mumby is booked up on builds for the next few years so I was going to purchase the plans and cnc cut files and attempt to build it myself. Now I'm way more interested in building a Odisea 48.
![Windelo 50 - The ULTIMATE ELECTRIC Bluewater Catamaran? [4K Tour] Learning the Lines](/img/n.gif)
Hey, this is Seth, President of HH Catamarans. A couple comments!:
1) First off, thanks for creating this video! You are helping many people understand the true differences in yacht design in an entertaining way. Bravo!
2) The HH44 data is correct (125.3 m2 SA). The Hulls are roughly 50% carbon fiber, so this little boat has a light displacement compared to these Fiberglass boats. Plus she's strong (Epoxy) and can handle a tall rig.
3) As for the HH50 (also Epoxy), your data was incorrect (and please use our HH52 as we are phasing out the HH50)! Online you will find on our website the correct HH50 Sail Area to use is 137.9 m2 (not 118.9). And our HH52 is larger at 161.84 m2.
4) MOST IMPORTANTLY, true Performance is not dictated by Ratios. If the vessel is build strong enough (Epoxy, Aramid Stays/Forestay, Carbon Fiber Hulls/Rig/Crossbeam/Daggerboards, Rudders, etc), you can keep pushing the boat where others need to reef down their large Sail Areas with Aluminum masts (ie Outremer). A deeper HH Daggerboard will help you sail a tighter upwind angle by several degrees. A curved Daggerboard will REDUCE displacement on an HH and provide lift, improving performance! This is where true performance shines through in real world applications and in Velocity Prediction Programs (Polars).
5) Manufacturers are required to be within 10% of their claimed "Lightship Displacement" for ISO Certification, but no one is regulating this industry (other than CZcamsrs :). And most importantly, the more expensive yachts come standard with more items which is therefor included in the "Lightship" calc. On an HH52-SC, for example, we include items like an Anchor, Anchor Chain, 50,000 BTUs of Air Conditioning, 4,900 Watts of Solar Panels, Sails, Lines, etc, so it is not not a true "Apples to Apples" comparison and should be treated as indicative only. A better (more fair) comparison might be using everyone's Max Displacement (if they will even share that data).
6) Correction: Balance produces using "Vinylester barrier coat and polyester resin." HH Catamarans are one of the few in your list producing in Epoxy for exactly the reasons you are saying, but Vinylester does not mean Polyester and can be used for its adhesive properties or if a smooth painted finish (without warping) is required. A Carbon Fiber and Epoxy HH hull could last 50-100 years if cared for properly and should retain its value longer (far longer) than a Polyester or Vinylester boat.
7) You get what you pay for. If you want Carbon Hulls/Mast/Daggers/Rudders, Aramid Rigging, Epoxy Resin, cutting edge design, comfort and performance, then be prepared to pay for it! Again, great video, looking forward to seeing you out there on the new boat!
I recall the gentleman from @SAILINGintoFREEDOM saying he would discuss this with other CZcamsrs. Pity he decided not to do so. Or, is this the typical time when things go “private massage”?
Anyway, well done video, certainly appropriate response fro you Seth.
Although HH has more great listed under lightship than others, one must start somewhere with comparisons.
This calls for a CZcams race. Three crew, same provisions, let’s say one of the Caribbean circuit races with rum involved.
Hey there Seth, hope all is well! Correction to your point #6 which is inaccurate. The Balance 526 can be built with up to 100% carbon fiber and its displacement is 1,500 kg lighter than the even what is listed on the charts he provided (which would be more on par with the HH52 when comparing apples to apples). There is no polyester used on that model that he ranked at #4 overall, it's only the lower cost model the 482 that is manufactured in the manner you described. (Rankings are totally subjective though and there isn't a factor in his charts for payload capacity, luxury, interior volume, or overall livability) Totally agree though, you get what you pay for and the HH's are fantastic catamarans that are a great choice for those in the market. Cheers!
Seth, thanks for these insights and additional details.
@@kirkb3473 Good point! If an item is not Standard, then many of these boats allow you to upgrade to better materials too. Ratios are great but it is really hard to compare Apples to Apples in this industry. People complain that a Balance or an HH might cost a lot of money, but you do usually get what you pay for (I wish it meant our margins were larger, but Balance builds a great boat and we all need to compete)! Good correction.
@@TheSailingFamily Competition is definitely a good thing for the consumer (not so great for margins!). Where HH (and Balance to a lesser extent) gets penalized is the standard boat includes most of the stuff that is optional on other brands (and is included in their lightship displacement numbers which hurts them in performance comparisons like this), the quality is also to a much different standard. There is so much B.S. out there, customers really need to do their due diligence to know what they are buying. Looking at a boat's base price doesn't tell you anything. I equate it to when companies advertise what the "low monthly payment" is...not how much it actually cost you to own.
As a future owner of a 1370, I picked the boat not because I wanted the ultimate performance boat. I wanted to cruise with decent performance, in comfort, at a cost I can afford and on a reliable boat (no bulk-head issues, creaking, cracking, expensive systems). I think Seawind has the best balance in these 4 areas.
I’ve been watching the Ruby Rose build. Congratulations it’s a beautiful boat. :o)
@@brentpenfold1795 Thank you. I still have 14 months to wait (4 years from when I put my deposit) but so far looks like its worth it. The first boat just launched two days ago and will be going through trials. Anxious to see how it does.
Congrats on the new boat! The 1370 definitely looks like a nice cruiser. You must be hull number 10 or lower if yours will be done in the next 14 months. Are you sailing it from there or having it shipped?
It should do the job ie won't sink. But to call it a performance cat is putting a burden on the English language more than it can possibly bare.
@@kirkb3473 Thanks. I am #15. They have 8 hulls in the works already in various build stages. It may be a couple of months off.
I'm not any longer in the market for a cat but I find this fascinating. We owned 2 "value" production cats way back in the early days (40-50 years ago) and I wish we had all this knowledge at the time. Some of the issues you highlight were problems we encountered then.
Thanks for the confirmation my friend
HI mate, your Odisea 48 being a Mumby 48 in supercharge mode is going to be a Great Cat that will be easier for peoples to obtain and will serve as a base mark for all others. The one to beat, the one that everyone will talk about. Great work captain!
Plukky my lad, you have really excelled yourself. Well researched and equally well presented it was a joy to watch. One of your best even without the girls. Thank you.
A really informative and educational video Plukky. Loved it. Looks like your Odisea 48 will be well placed to enjoy commercial success within the performance category. :o)
Great research plukky.
👌👌👌👌👌👍👍👍👍👌
Love your approach to everything in all your vids. Although I can never afford any of these boats, I do appreciate the masterclass in high value shopping! Think, compare ,then buy!
Great video and nothing to critique, thank you for putting this together to dispel the bullshit that is out there! We are building a Balance 526 now and it firmly fits about middle of the road which is why we picked it, respectable performance but with an element of luxury & comfort that makes the wife happy too, which it tough to put on a graph! Keep up the great work & looking forward to seeing the progress on your build 👍🏻
Probably upper than middle....too heavy for me but still a performance cat.
And they don't appear to be dishonest aswell....always a plus
@@SAILINGintoFREEDOM they’ve been great to work with, really stand up group of people! There’s another South African Cat that would be a good addition to your list, the Kinetic 54. Would be interesting to see how that fits with the others. Cheers!
Thanks for doing this , oh Pluckmaster. Well done. As I’m just this week getting off and home from a partial ocean delivery of a Bali 5.4 straight out of the factory in Canet , France to the Canary Islands, this vid is great timing for me to see with my new curiosity of cats. The factory we picked the boat up at, I believe, is where some Catana cats are built.
Well done. Really good homework here. There is more depth to the data here then I have seen before.
Thank you for this video!! This is exactly what we need to know. I could talk about this all day. Cutting through the hype and the name to the data. Love it!!
The price level would also be more interesting as parameter if the level of commitment to service after sale, the amount of years the selling company have existed and how they help previous owners to sell their second hand boats, the second hand value etc. Also it would be great to get an idea of the level of available modifications, and how these are charged. Great video, thanks for posting!
One other intersting metric for catamarans is a measure of rigidity - simply put you jack the front of one hull up until the other hull starts to lift - pretty obviously measures how much flex there is between the hulls in a seaway and the damage/wear done on a cat's by sailing it. Look into it it's mind blowing.
Aluminium frame and structure is the most rigid, Mumby is ridiculously rigid....polyester boats sag when lifted
I know I'm biased (and they're still new, so not a ton of on the water information), but I still want to give a nomination to Max Cruise Marine!! A great value for their 44 ft boats, and based on our test sails in Vietnam, they are damn fast! The owner, Terry, just sailed his newly completed hull from Vietnam to Thiland and hit speeds of 22 knots. Anyway, just heard about your project last week from Ryan and Sophie - we wish you the best of luck!!
Hey MJ, by all means. Send me all the EPIJ measurements, mail sail A, true racing wt and light ship displ , max wt and LWL and BCL to peter@elcanoworldchallenge.org
Great video. Can't wait to see the boat build! So happy to learn from you, Capt'n Plukkynos! 🙏❤️🇺🇸🇦🇺⛵️😍👍
Thanks Plucky,
My apologies. Your normally carefree demeanor belies the technical expertise with which you are able to present the real life significance for the various comparisons
I did appreciate the fact that HH jumped into the fray after ignoring your initial request for clarification of their specs.
It will be nice if a few more manufacturers are willing to offer some insight relative to their products.
No doubt that performance and weight and strength are closely related.
But, I did find a bit of redemption in the HH argument that there is more to strength and performance than just using expensive materials….time (and money) will tell.
One bit of wisdom I find to have endured over the years is the manufacturing philosophy that :
Good, Fast, Cheap….you can only pick two.
Thanks again.
Will not you can pick all 3😁
Fun video, well done. As many commenters point out, it's hard to make like-for-like comparisons with new-build numbers without getting deep into the weeds of fit-out and customization. And there's another angle too - I sail a Chris White Atlantic 57 built with S-glass, carbon, kevlar, and epoxy, with a carbon rig. A very stiff and durable high-end composite build. And - the usual insurers puke all over it because it's not a standard bendy toy.....
It is counter intuitive ....I hate the insurance companies
A lot of work went into this presentation so thank you for that. Methinks youre on the cusp of something great here. Cant wait to see the unveiling of the design and in particular the daggerboards and rudders.
5 Feb 2024 Jason and Nikki Wynn just took delivery of an electric hybrid HH44. Nuff said.
Nice job Plukky. Best of luck and success in the coming build!
Great job Peter, at making a dry subject interesting. I watched the whole thing and I can't even afford a boat! I agree with your attitude tword saftey. Our weather is only getting crazier and you want to know you're in the strongest boat possible. Same reason fast is crucial, to avoid storms.
@5:26 Plucky, I'd love to see a re-analysis of these numbers with any reasonable amount of circumnavigation/family enjoyment gear added to the equations. Very few of us are going to sail around on empty boats so let's, for argument sake, add 2.5 tons of equipment. Dive compressors, a 365 pound generator, SCUBA gear, kite gear, perhaps additional fuel in Jerry cans, a water maker, fishing gear, a family sized dingy with a 25hp outboard, water skiis/wake board, food/provisions, and most importantly cases upon cases of rum. Then lets see how fast everyone is! My gut is telling me that the performance boats are going to have a tough time and the larger displacement boats aren't going to notice much. This is where the rubber meets the asphalt for buyers and I think we'll see a lot more boats around the 23-25 mark. Thanks for this hard work, very enjoyable to listen to!
I actually have a chart showing fully loaded and it is much the same but of course you can't put 6.5 t on an ODC48. My friends Mumby is overloaded and he still under sails it at 8.5 knots with very little canvas aloft. Depends on how much gear you have... If you have lots of gear just buy a house on water and suffer the consequences. Remember these boats don't handle weather at all.... Loading them up doesn't improve them and you will get into trouble guaranteed
Totally agreed with Peter here. For the same cruising weight added, the boat that started lighter will still be well faster. Of course, any light weight boat will have a limitation on how much you can fit. Something like my Mumby is a good example. It's a full time live aboard with all the cruising goodies including the dive compressor, and admittedly, we're probably a little over weight. But she's still faster than 99% of boats locally. She'll sail at 10knots all day with out pushing, or in the mid to high teens if I want to wind her up a bit.
Top stuff Plukky, starting to learn a lot here. And more people are reading the comments 🤙🏼😀
Good one. But the alu vs composite; very hard to fix alu out from a yard - composite can be repaired anywhere if you have some resin and fiber.... Those ratios are basic - add stability, type of mast (alu-carbon-rotating-fixed) - type of keel - then you get the real potential. Could also be very interesting to see the Neels, Rapidos and Dragonfly 40 in this context.
Am in the market for a cat, so this video came in handy, i appreciate the work you put into this. thank you brother.
Capt.Amory
Send me an email to peter@elcanoworldchallenge.org
Bare foot Doctors mention you on their last video... about the boat your building,, YAHOOO BABY
Always knew you knew what you were doing… great info
This video should end up going viral in the boating community. Lot's of great information other than the price of the new Odisea 48. Sailing Life on Jupiter in 2015 paid around 300k for their brand new, custom to your liking, mast, sails, engine's, electronics, batteries, everything. I've heard that Tim Mumby is charging a little bit more now due to inflation but THE ODISEA 48 IS MORE THAN TWICE THE COST for basically the same boat. That's $427,600.00 USD more than what Jamie paid for his Cyber 48. I could get two Cyber 48's and have $127,600.00 left over for the same price of the Odisea 48. Why??? Is this due to the labor rates in Greece verses the Philippines or is this pure greed like what HH is charging for a Chineese made boat where the labor rates are a dollar a day?
A lifetime of cruising and owning and cruising 5 different cruising boats, professional ferry captains and ocean sailing instructor…………I agree with you completely. One on the boats that I captained was a 70’ all aluminum Power cat ferry --Morelli Melvin designed. Aluminum absolute first choice.
Very educational and informative post, Peter.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us.
No problems Albert. Glad you like it....I am still surprised how much they all lie thru their teeth ha
Hope this video goes viral and gets more than a million views. It deservs it!
Agree. :o)
Me too... Maybe share it around if you can
@@SAILINGintoFREEDOM I will
Iam in the process of building aluminum catamaran myself. I own a metal fabrication business, I am not a boat builder by profession. I definitely like the Mumby cyber 48 but I think the design could use improvements and updates as it has became a dated design and I must have a larger boat. I am planning on doing many unconventional things with my build. I have been working with naval architects and engineers for the past year on finalizing the design. I have finalized some of the design aspects and I am going with a length of 62 feet and that is to accommodate a unique design feature. I am incorporating a large lifting platform on the rear of the boat to accommodate a icon a5 amphibious airplane which is 23" long and 8'-6" wide and a weight of 1500 lbs. The original design was for a vertical lifting platform basically the size of the entire cockpit but I have changed the design to a platform that is hinged on one side with winches or hydraulics to raise and lower the ramp. While on anchor or docked the airplane can be placed in the water to regain cockpit space. I am also doing a unconventional hybrid power and propulsion system that I have designed utilizing a gas turbine auxiliary power unit to generate electricity and hydraulic power. I am planning to use rotating electric pod thrusters that will retract into the hulls which can also function as generators. Main power generation will be with solar panels and I am going to install as many solar panels as possible and I am going to tie flexible solar panels to the wings of the airplane to increase power generation. The wings fold up for storage or transport so in calmer weather I will unfold the wings for more surface. I would like to have 10kw of solar or more if possible. I am going to use winches to deploy the dagger boards and I want to automate as my controls as possible to reduce my workload due to the fact that I am a below the knee amputee. I am going for the maximum performance possible while accepting the tradeoffs that come with the features I want but performance is the number 2 design priority. All systems will have mechanical backups so any failures will not be critical.
Please send me an email to peter@elcanoworldchallenge.org
Mate if u have the extra Time and Muse, please include us on your journey.
Wow really valuable video !!! any info from someone experienced like you is gold value !!!
Thank you Peter you open my eyes for few subjects .... only problem because I want buy a monohull ...:) any way Plucky its worth watch you even if you waiting for rain .....:P
greetings from PL
Al
Enjoyed your cameo appearance on Jamie’s channel. Nice insights on the Mumby. :o)
Amazing video tons of information ! Really shaking the tree on this one lots of pee pole checking out this amazing information ! Thank You !
Thanks Peter! No sales hype, just the comparative data.
Among your best factual videos. Thank you.
I'm not in the boat market but found the video really interesting and also great presentation. 👍
Thanks Davie
Great video! Looks like a ton of work went into this. I feel your pain in getting hold of the prices in the industry. I understand that the price depends on what options you go for, but the manufacturers could at least pull together some examples (Coastal Cruising, Med package, Bluewater Cruising, Stuck-in-Marina ;) ). There are some exceptions.........
Well said!
You didnt do the Cat to reef ratio!!!
Can it survive plucky driving into a reef at night!!!!
That's the boat I want reef proof lol
Love your work mate!!!
Plukkonos, Your new boat is going to be the best lightweight performance catamaran on the market and I believe that you will be able to complete the challenge! I want one!!!
INDEED
Behind me Rob...
@@oznutcase That's OK because I can't afford the $727,600 price tag. I'll have to build one from the plans and cnc cut files which will take me some time to do.
Very informative sir… this land lover continues to get schooled. So excited with your new adventure. Cheers
Than you for all the great information in thiks video!
Ohhh schucks... Thanks number one fan
probably not making a lot of friends in the boat manufacturing world but this is really great information for anyone interested in a cruising cat. Now if you eventually drown freediving we'll have to wonder forever if you had an HH anchor tied to your waist... ;)
If you lie and mislead then it should be exposed
Wow peoples, who'd have thunk after watching you for years that secretly you were a very intelligent and insightful designer and not just a loveable buff head larrikin youtuber.... This is by far the best comparison yet... I note your stats on aluminum.... I not sure ali is the answer but it makes me research a bit more... Great info on materials as well
BTW.. I'm a performance guy so I love the dagger boards and i.m a fan of barrel style rudder cassettes with rudder blades that can easily lift out of the center....
When do you envision your new boat be launched ...?
Mid 2024. Alloy is great but it has it's disadvantages too.. The good thing is the disadvantages are all manageable
Wow, that was a lot of math and information. My head hurts 😉 Thx Plukky 🤗
Another great video Plukky! 👍
Ref GRP, that was very informative, thank you, Plucky. Is there any chance of you doing a similar video covering aluminum and the corrosion caused by dissimilar metals eg my buddy drops a metal fish hook in the bilge while not being aware of the consequences.
I would like to see the South African built Current Marine cats in this list. I reckon they’ll be along side those top 3.
Hey! You missed out on Pescott Catamarans!! I'm on my second one and they are one of the best sailing catamarans around and.... designed and built in Australia-- alas not in full production-- is this one of your criteria? The other Australian designer are Robin Chamberlin, Tony Grainger and Lock Crowther...? Your boats in the top 10 are HUGE money... The Pescotts and the others are much more reasonable on price--and the sailing is incredible!
Great work. Number correction is getting necessary, like you just can't trust a sales pitch.
Can I just add all the sails I can fly at once to calculate sail area on my ketch? Will have to come up with my own silly numbers.
My man, thank you for this breakdown. I feel having this information will tell the sellers that they won't be able to try and feed me bullshit regarding substandard builds.
Have you done a video about aluminum catamarans that are built for blue sea sailing?
No but they are bulletproof. The original first build Mumby 48 is still sailing around and it was built almost 20 years ago
A very interesting video here as I also keep a spreadsheet with all the metrics. Few comments:
1) There is no single Odisea48 on the water to have real-world data about performance. I guess yours will be the first Guiney pig, (and I'm sure it will be a great performer just because it's aluminium). That's why these claims should be taken with a pinch of salt.
2) Odisea's sail area is a bit too large for its size. Reefing it and re-reefing it and re-reefing it again back-and-forth will be a nightmare, unless they have in-mast roller or in-boom roller, which would reduce the performance anyway. ORC50 has a relatively large sail area, but they also have a beam of 8.60m at 15.24m LWL. If Oddisea48 with LWL 14.60m was to have such a ratio, it would need to have a beam of at least 8.12m, while it has 7.60m.
3) Performance of a catamaran is not only due to Displacement/SA, the design matters a lot. Hull Width At Waterline is very important measurement and something tells me Odisea is no much to Gunboat48, ORC50's 1.06m, and it's probably more in the Mumby48 range of 1.17m.
Another important measurement for performance is Bridge Deck Clearance. Mumby48 has 88cm, ORC50 has 95cm, Gunboat has a whopping 1.3m, while Oddisea is 82cm.
Positioning of the daggerboards is also important. Odisea's positioning of the daggerboards seems to have been chosen quite arbitrarily.
Importantly, ORC50 hulls have a very unique shape (the way they enter the water) that make them unparalleled in terms of performance. If ORC50 was to be made out of aluminium (thicker at the bottom of the hull and thinner at the top, with carbon fiber roof and surface), I'm sure it would be the best performing cat out there, and probably hands down the BEST cat out there!
4) Now that I know that Odisea48 is $727,000, my interest in it has suddenly decreased. Mumby48 at ~$300,000 is still the best bang for one's hard-earned buck.
Ok. There are lots of mistakes above but some good stuff too. Top stuff...keep refining
I happened to see
you forgot about me
slapping 2 monos together
for a "Piggy Cat".
Though slow as can be
even with wind and flat seas
the price performance ratio
would beat all of that.
At $20K tops
for a 40 ft boat
with 2 masts and 2 jibs
and double the rope,
don't forget about the keel,
made of lead just for fun,
and she weighs in at somewhere
around 15 fatboy tons.
Will she reach 7 knots
giving her all that you've got?
Dunno, but for sundowners at anchor
(not racing at sea)
she's more roomy than any cat
and as fast (hic) as need be.
I thought lagoon and leopard already did that?
@@SAILINGintoFREEDOM They tried to qualify but I think they can break 10 knots surfing downwind on 20 ft seas so I'm pretty sure I'll own the "Piggy Cat" title, except for ?Lagoons? with the cracked cimpression box. Hard to hit 2 knots when the bottom of the mast is poking thru the bridge and acting as a leeboard.
Somwhat are the "Cat" numbers for (gimme a sec)
SA=2,000 sq ft / 200 sqm
DISP=55,000 lbs / 24mt
or after carving out the lead&getting
DISP=30,000 / 13mt
2,000 sqft of sail on a 30,000 lb tri
...will it break 12 knots?
@@yankeepirate8927 Is there any photos or videos of your cat? I'd love to see it or some photos of building it
@@lemansroman2065 Not yet. As w/ most boat projects this started w/ a step supposed to be done by mid Feb...praying for mid Mar.
@@yankeepirate8927 What are the monohulls? How do you plan to connect them? Will you build some kind of saloon roof or just like open bridgedeck?
Great video. Really informative and educational video Love it. 👍
I have to ask your opinion on the Neel 51 ?? even though it doesn't fall the category and it's not on any of your SA/Disp and LWL graphs it's a performer with the Ridge mainstay I think. Great Job! Thanks for your video's ⛵️
You ought to know how to calculate yourself with the videos. Good luck
@@SAILINGintoFREEDOM Yes I did the calculations IAW your teachings.
A Thank You from everyone you have helped.
I feel you avoided the Windelo? The stats I've seen, it compares well? Plus it's made from a completely new material. Worth a review, please?
Bloody good vid and info from an Aussie, spoken like it is. Did your homework and presented the results. No bullshit and if followed "No Worries mate" Thx Plucky. Matt from Canberra ACT (sorry Plucky)🤣🤣🤣
Great informative video. Much appreciated. Odisea 48 looks amazing but if you ned assistance designing the interior layout, im happy to help!
oO a new shirt! You look nearly respectable Pluckamedies. Like a lawyer or a car salesman respectable. Fair winds.
Okay Plukky, you convinced me that my X5 Xquisite is the party barage. You can use my blender and washing machine anytime.
Great presentation Plucky👍👍
That's a ton of useful information. Thank you.
Great info and appreciate the research, my necks of the world, Long Beach, CA , very few slips available to fit a cat. Wish you the best and safe journeys.
I learnt heaps from this plukky cheers 🍺
Pluck.. What happened to the Mumby 48 proposal? I thought you were very keen on it.
I thought he was getting a mumby as well? I mustvhave missed a video.
The ODC 48 has evolved out of the Mumby … and Tim Mumby is involved as a consultant to the project. It’s a Mumby 2.0. :o))
It's a Plukby 48😁
GEICO 48
Plukky, comparison on the HH solent is an interesting one. My understanding was that a solent is by design an overlapping cut? But is still a decent bit smaller than a genoa, because of its shorter luff and longer foot?
Seems very difficult to compare these things!
Another component I'm often aware of and speak with crew a lot about, is that you can have an average "performing" boat skippered by a wise, measured head kept safe ....a "high performance" boat managed by a ill-prepared skipper with bad decision making processes putting life and limb at great risk
Looking forward to more of this type of vid from you mate!
Best of luck with the build!
I am no expert, but it's a 100% or it should be a 100% and that's what I have been using to compare to be fair....so when it goes overlapping well then I had to look...thanks for the comment, high performance catamaran here we come
Love your work dude🏋🏻♀️🤟🏋🏻♀️
Yeah man! Cool rundown of the field ;-)
With the recent tweaks to Odisea 48's design it may be worth revisiting these numbers, particularly since construction has started and no doubt those interested may be considering a purchase?
Thanks for breaking the numbers down Peter
Great info Plukky ….. I’m in the hunt for a live aboard cruising cat to do the QLD East coast which you know well. What I was looking at is now not what I’m looking at based on your apples to apples comparisons. I’m a numbers man so if the data’s correct from the builders (As we all know can be fudged to sell a product) the results don’t lie. Oh and very interesting point about the HH pricing, way up there for a Chinese/Asian production …. Struth must be some fat cats to feed !! Pretty sure old mate who owned the cat Archer is a marketing manager for them. Anywho time to find a floating home and yes I like the comforts too like a fridge or 3 😂.
No comparison with trimarans like neels or rapidos? Would love to see where they fall.
Thanks for sharing your research!
I've just realized you are a lot smarter than you look Plukky!. Well done!
It's really coming together.
How about a comparison of 40' catamarans taking into consideration an optimization of: performance, comfort and cost? I'd love to see that kind of analysis please.
I don't have enough time. Working 90 hour weeks. I gave you the tools And showed you what to do... Good luck
Thanks for your research and logical presentation. Even at 700k that's out of the reach of my budget!🤠
Interesting video but I think some of the numbers are off a bit. Having looked at Balance, Outremer and HH recently and gone through pricing, the gaps between them were not inline with your graphs. With options the Balance 526 was more than the HH52, likewise the Outremer 55 was about the same price as the HH52 OC.
Yeah thanks for that. I have put it in the description. The damn prices were another issue with another blast of emails everywhere
@@SAILINGintoFREEDOM we did walk throughs of the Balance, HH, Outremer, and Windello recently at the Cannes boat show if you're interested in seeing those boats. It's on our channel. We also shared some of our thoughts on the different boats.
It's definitely deceiving, for some reason HH calls their boat a 52 even though it's a 48' boat. The Balance 526 is actually almost identical in size to the HH55, so you really need to dig into the details, then there are about 376 other factors and subtleties to consider lol.
@@kirkb3473 the HH52 is 52' long, the 48' you refer to is the waterline length. I think it gets the full 52' of waterline when it's loaded up and the leeward hull is pushed down into the water. The HH52 is actually 57' overall. I can't wait for the first one to be launched next year.
@@pageadventures The HH's are all definitely spectacular boats, but when comparing the true size of the boat waterline and beam is what you use, it's also important to consider the beam of the boat, with a waterline is 3 feet shorter, and the beam is 3 feet narrower than the Balance 526, it is a significantly smaller boat with much less interior volume and locker storage but much finer hulls. Much more performance oriented for sure, but a little heavier considering their smaller size. I can't wait to see the first one too, it's going to be a very cool boat, cheers!
Humm... Your engineering persona is definitely messing with your cave man image. Very interesting data you have collected and presented here. I am not a boat guy, but I am an engineer so I really like the way you have analyzed this.
Shhh. Don't tell anyone....
Speaking the TRUTH makes understanding much easier with anything.
Agreed
$727,600.00. Is that in USD? I was hoping that the price would be similar to the Mumby Cyber 48. I'm a little disappointed about that. I'll need to purchase the plans and cnc cut files and build it myself in order to afford it. I'm going to have to either learn how to weld aluminum or go to a country where the labor rates are affordable and have them weld it up for me. The rest I can do myself. Hopefully you'll be able to film the entire process of the build with all the technical details including the amount of time it takes to build and install each component and the prices of each item. I'm very much looking forward to the build series. Also; If I become a patron, will I get more detailed information?
Plukky you're a legend!
I can't deny it anymore.... Kidding! Just plodding along
Plukky,
Which alloy have you chosen for your design? Are have you chosen more than one for it's properties, as to it's use(s)? With your design what are you valuing more, the materials corrosion resistance, strength, or moduli?
Cheers!
Fair Winds.
Faithfully,
James
All coming soon
Wow, another great question!
Great review thank you 😊
What do you have against the HH44 amigo? Sail area is should be measured with go to sail. That is the Solent with an HH44. It is an interesting boat. Innovative, lightweight and fast. Yes crazy expensive. But cheap is always expensive in the long run?
They fiddled the figures...
Peter, very informational.
Have you selected all needed crew for Greece?
No... Apply
Superb video! Thanks for crunching the numbers, good Sir.
Outstanding!
Great video good to know information
Great info ty so much
Plukky I'm seriously impressed with this. I hope you start a debate as well would be fascinating to get other competing views i the mix. All very interesting. Thanks...
Suggest it on the other channels... Let's see how long until you get banned ha
Another number that would be interesting is Slenderness Ratio (SLR) or Displacement Length Ratio (DLR), or alternately hull waterline length/hull WL Beam ratio (LWL/BWL)
Another video will do those
Hey Plucky when u showed the SA/Displ & LWL ratio u showed the 1st cabin roof design proposed for the Odisea. If u re-do the sail area numbers with the lowered boom how does it compare then? Still 3rd?
Just roughly yes
It doesn't really matter...top 3 is great.
I’ve thought for ages I’d go alloy and I like the David DeVilliers rigs but there is no data on them. I also like the look of the Wendell but with 5 kids in tow I’d go a triamaran for the extra hull, safety and speed but in alloy as a custom build. On price I reckon I’d still be well under an HH.😂
Please send me email to peter@elcanoworldchallenge.org
Very interesting.
Capt'n Plukkynos, Would the Odisea 48 preform better if it was wider? I used to race Tornado and Nacra catamarans and have flipped and pitch poled many times. How do you determine the best width? Also, what gear is included in the Odisea 48 when you did the numbers for it? Is the anchor going to be located on the front crossbar or amidships? Could you also talk about the mast height and how you determine the perfect length of stick? Last thing on the price. Why is the Odisea 2 1/3 times the price of the Cyber 48? Thanks mate. Excellent work!!! Best video of the year!!!
I think you might be comparing prices to the cyber back in 2012. Its also a professional build. You might want to take a look at the welds on some of the Mumbys and see how they are built. I wouldv guess a Mumby now is much more than what Jamie's quoting in 2016
@@SAILINGintoFREEDOM Yes, I spoke to Jamie about the prices and he said that Tim Mumby was suggesting something like $375,000 from what I remember about the conversation a few months ago. Tim Mumby is booked up on builds for the next few years so I was going to purchase the plans and cnc cut files and attempt to build it myself. Now I'm way more interested in building a Odisea 48.
Bring on the ODC48 brother!
Coming soon
Finally someone mentions Dazcat! Finally. Absolutely the best $ for boat.
Mmmm don't agree
Well done, mate.
Thanks Pete. Nuthin but quality mate!👍🇦🇺