"What do you guys think"? I think you should do a complete, precision rebuild, or select a period correct replacement to rebuild. I have been wrenching for 50 years and have to hand it to you; NEVER seen pistons that sloppy in the bore. Do it once, do it right. I know you will because that's your way. But in case you're tempted to take a short cut, remember the old, ace mechanic's snarky warning: "You can always afford to do it right THE SECOND time!" :O
Ian, my BF is a savant mechanic! He machines, builds & rebuilds race car and other engines, heads, valves, etc. (he actually completely rebuilt a bunch of haying equipment for me on the weekends this summer). Anyway, he said NO WAY can you just add rings. The whole engine likely needs to be rebuilt -valve job & guides. But he says if you do it will last another 40years+. Good news is he says you can still get the parts.
Here's what a very knowledgeable friend said about rebuilding a worn out flat 6 in a 1940's military vehicle that will not be ran but a few hours each year. Sounds a bit like your situation. "If you pull the head, you’ll find your pistons are probably worn severely, rings are shot and cracked , valve guides are sloppy. Spend some money and you can get your engine running pretty good for doing a one day job. I’ve told former customers in the past this over and over. Pull the pistons and replace the same size with new pistons and new rings , hone the cylinders out. If there is a large Groove that your fingernails can grab at the very top of the cylinder you can use a ridge cutter that is a manual cutter to take that ridge out so you can push the piston out. sometimes the rings will get stuck on the groove that’s caused from severe cylinder wear. If you’re oil pressure has been OK just replace the rod bearings, if you’re really enthusiastic replace the main bearings. I always felt if you had to replace main bearings you should pull the engine out and rebuild the entire engine properly including new cam bearings. Replace your oil pump with a new one and a new oil filter pick up screen. With an engine having that much time on it you’ll probably find all your valve guides are sloppy at this stage it’s easy to remove the valves . you can either relap the seats with valve grinding compound and see how they look , meaning is the seat in the center of the valve or you can install new guides and new valves to take care of any problem you may have hopefully you won’t have to cut your valve seats. So to recap Replace pistons and rings with the same size the engine was bored out to originally. Replace rod bearings maybe main bearings Replace engine oil pump and pick up screen Probably replace valve guides and valves, Break the cylinder wall dark looking haze with a nice shiny cross hatch in each cylinder. Keep the honeing down to a minimum so you do not enlarge the bore." Hope this helps!!
Cylinder bore is most likely worn as seen by the piston slap. Is there a ridge in the cylinder around a 1/4” from the top that you can feel? Just getting new rings won’t help because of the amount of piston slap. Would need to be bored with oversized pistons and rings unfortunately.
Sit the boys down and let them listen to the options. Talk it over and let them help decide. 5 minutes hands on beats hours in a book. The block is not the object, teaching your son's how to understand and correct the problem is. You could be an old Vermonter. Happy New Year.
Hone the cylinders, knurl or replace the pistons, new rings, lap the valves unless they need regrind, good for three hours a year. My high school project 1958. edit; Heads are likely worn just as bad. Pop can shims will tighten the con rod bearings.
Ian, that combine is a family heirloom. How many generations have been running it ? Spend the money, do it right, it'll cost buckets more if you jury rig now and leave the proper fix for when your children are looking at it trying to keep it running for their kids. While you are at it, steam clean, maybe paint. Dont do a '2 years good enough' fix on it, put another 20 years of life into it. You may cringe writing the cheque today, but you'll be thankful in another decade, and moreso 2 decades from now.
Your machine shop should have the best answers you need. Looks like it's been bored out .030" over the last time it was overhauled. Some motors can be bored out just so much. I've seen old engines with real sloppy bores get rebuilt with sleeves to bring the bore back to original spec.. The other wear surfaces ( crank & camshaft) will tell you whether or not to look for another engine with less wear to rebuild. Don't forget the oil pump. no matter how good the rebuild was, if the pump isn't putting out enough lube oil at the proper pressure, it's money down the drain in quick order. The oil pump will wear just like the other components.
By the look of the amount you can move the piston I’m not sure it can be even bored out, it may be gone to far. Absolutely not just new rings. 25 years master technician and I’ve never seen one that loose but I’m not familiar with that particular engine either. It needs to have a rebuilder measure it.
Whoa! It actually ran like that? That in itself is impressive. Eings are not gonna fix that.. If it's that bad, it's time for a complete redo. Fixing one part just makes it harder on the parts that were ignored and could mess up the parts that were fixed. Better to drag her out once and be done with it, especially since you don't seem to be planning on getting rid of it. I have no doubt you and your boys would be happier with the knowledge it was completely redone.
Teach your boys the proper way to do that repair. It will pay dividends to them for the rest of their lives. That motor has been a good one. I have never seen "piston slap" like that before. I'm an old man now and I understand wanting to save money, however, bore that useful motor and the education the boys learn will make it all worthwhile. Not to mention the confidence you will have in knowing it was a job well done. Cheers fro the Adirondack Mountains. BTW, I really like your channels content.
Pistons that loose, rebuild! No choice. You won't find rings that can cure that. The loose also puts pressure on the bearings. You might have wear on the crankshaft too. A complete rebuilt is in order and these old engines a made more simple than the newer ones, thus cheaper to fix! Thanks for another great video! Happy New Year!
No, you cannot tighten that. Bore it out and spend a little, carve out a couple hours a day. Many hands make light work! This will be a project your kids will benefit from through life. I appreciate my Dad a lot for showing me how to work on engines when I was 16. :)
Just like the 20 feet you needed to have put on, do the right thing. You know you will just use it two to three hours for actual combine work, but you will be trailering and driving it to shows and parades. You need not go full period rebuild. You will need to do just a bit more than you currently think. Lest you regret not doing that one thing you don't deem cost efficient. I whole heartedly support your children doing as much as possible, up to and including taking them to the machine shop that will be doing the hard work. In the end it is your combine and I will watch your progress here. I pray you do not take short cuts that you may soon regret.
Here's the thing, you could get rings and it will increase the compression, but with that much slop (play), it won't last and you'll do more damage to it, also increase risk of more catastrophic failure. There is plenty of meat in that motor, I'm sure that running it that loose for all those years has turned your once round cylinders somewhat oval, so you need a machinist to see if going say .60 over will bring it back into being true. New oversized pistons, possibly sleeves if you want it to last, but I'd replace the whole bottom end, get the crank cleaned up, hopefully bearing journals are still true, replace the cam and any worn out valve train components including getting the seats machined and see if it needs to be decked. It's a big job, parts expensive, you might find aftermarket oversized rebuild kits cheaper. It might also be just as expensive to buy a rebuilt one online, I'm sure some sells a fully rebuilt version. I personally would also look into seeing if I could replace it with something more modern and reliable. Farmers are crafty, and I bet there are plans, possibly modern conversion kits for much newer, cheaper, lighter and more readily available and reliable engines.
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog I'm sure there is no coming close to replicating that sound unless the replacement is another straight six, but even then, the firing order, timing, cam profile, manifold size, all will impact that glorious sound. Maybe you step it up a notch? Hack a cheap truck LS motor on there with a budget aftermarket EFI system on it. Won't be much of an overall difference size-wise but the sound of straight pipes (especially open headers) on an LS is an eargasm, even if an LS is super overkill for this use and really the wrong power profile, could fix that with a cam though 😁
I had a '48 irrigation pump with flathead six. A guy was going to machine head and valve seats and found them to be stellite and they gave him fits, so it may be worth checking before buggering them up.
Great idea introducing the kid to mechanical workings. Enthusiasm is highest IMHO by working on something that you can later ride,/drive, i.e. go-kart or dirt bike. You tried 6: Most surfaces wear fairly even, so the cylinder walls are probably tapered and out-of-round also. Values too worn to re-use, and possibly little meat left on valve seats. Hopefully someone has a used engine that you can swap. On that hasn't been around the world and back! Why don't you post a block serial number, and maybe the new year will come with resolve. Come on guys, let get to looking! Happy new year.🙏🎉
Years ago they used to knurl piston skirts to expand the piston to tighten them up. Not many still have those tools or the knowledge to use them. The top of the piston is the smallest part so some rocking is normal. I also notice that the piston seems able to wobble in any direction which makes me wonder about the condition of the wrist pin bushings.
This will never be used for production harvesting, so maximum performance is not a concern, just being able to do demonstration passes is the goal, so while a full rebuild and sleeves would be the Future Generations way, it's not "needed" for your purposes. I would have your friend measure the bores and see if it can be bored oversize and improve the slop, and if so, bore it and put the next size up pistons in it. But if it's already overbored to the limit, and putting sleeves in is too expensive, then do a farmer rebuild with the boys, slap new bearings in, put new rings in, maybe oversize to take up some slap, hone the cylinders, dress the valves, and put it back together and see how well it runs. If it runs fine for what you need, great! You just did an in frame rebuild with your boys! If it's still lacking and you need to take it out and get more invasive and spend more money, that's more learning with the boys. But the cost of bearings and rings is not going to be very high, and I think it's worth it to give it a shot doing it the farmer shop way, since the goals are engine rebuild experience with your boys, with an engine that runs a little bit better at the end. And remember, it got to this level of wear in production service, so it still ran well enough to operate, so a little improvement may be all right for a couple of hours a year! And maybe in a couple of years with an engine that runs "a little bit better" you will reach the decision that spending the money and doing a full shop rebuild is worth it, but you won't be out much money if you just try doing an in frame with the boys, and gain a lot of valuable time and experience. And yes, lots of other accurate comments about oval cylinders and needs sleeves and all the right ways to do it, but again, this is NOT a production machine, this is a toy and a history demonstration, and so if you can do it like an old farmer, and improve the performance for a few bucks in rings and bearings, than you are doing it the traditional way! As a former kid, I personally would find it fun to do the rebuild and see how it works, and then go from there. And yes, oversized rings and such will probably only improve things for a short time, but it won't cause more damage, and may last a few years, or may still suck so bad that you decide to send it to the shop, but it's still something you are doing together with the boys, and however it turns out, they learn! Lol Oh, and since that engine is part of your history, I would spend more money to fully rebuild it, rather than grab some junkyard engine and replace it. If you were making a production machine, maybe a junkyard engine would be the smart option, but I see that particular engine to be the heart of the project that you are doing, which is getting YOUR machine able to spend a couple of hours a year in the field. And maybe you can find a matching engine and swap it out, but I would still keep this one for the future day when you or your kids decide they want to rebuild it and return it to original.
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog oh, one other factor. If the pistons are slapping too badly, where they are tearing the engine apart, running it like this could lead to catastrophic failure and ruin the block, so I would go easy on it if you just in frame it, but if you were running it before without hearing bad piston slap, it may not be that bad. When I said not causing any damage, I was thinking that if you just put new rings in, and it scores the cylinder, the next step will probably be sleeves anyway, and a little extra scoring or wear won't matter in that case. But catastrophic failure is certainly something to avoid! I don't remember now if you have had it running recently, but if it was running decently, just low power, as opposed to banging and shaking, it might have some life left... Lol
First!!!!! We had 21C here today. There are guards on the entrances of the hives tonight. We have thunderstorms and tornados here in the Southeastern US tonight. Those pistons are worn out. I would measure the bore and compare it to the diameter of a new piston. If you can replace the pistons and rings it should run for a long time. Thanks Ian.
If she shoves a rod through the side, it's game over 😢. It is the heart of the machine and is well worth doing properly. If there is that much slap in the pistons, you can almost take it as said that the big ends and crankshaft will require attention also. It's not worth taking the risk. It's a lovely old 21 you have. 👍👍
Depends on what you want. Clearly some folks don't agree but rings would make a difference. all the wear you see on the cylinder wore the rings out as well. New rings, cut the ridge and deglaze and it would be better. No mechanic would ever agree. But, then again a mechanic would suggest oversize and while you have it apart. full rebuild. Rings aren't a lot of money so it wouldn't be a big deal to try it. cut the ridge, deglaze. stick in the rings then bolt it back together mount it outside the machine and fire it up. Bench test. if it works. reinstall it. if not then you have a decision to make. bite the bullet or find a engine in better shape.
Locate correct specs from Chrysler. There’s new tolerances and serviceable tolerances given on many specs. Whatever you can bring into serviceable tolerance specs with minimal $$$ sounds like the way to find the happy medium of overhaul cost and expected amount of use. You won’t know for sure what needs to be done until you have data. Very cool specimen! I’d love to see it run again if I had one. Good Luck!
Mine, I take it to the machine shop, rebuild, teach the the boys do it right. Do it once. Look at it like the easy loader, when you want to use it you want to use it.
I agree with Eric who commented early on, you need to measure things up and see where you are before you can make a decision. Rings won't do it for what looks like excessive wear in the cylinders but if you have enough cylinder left and they are not too far out of round then you may be able to get the block bored out and go with oversize pistons. No real way to tell except by getting it measured up. You will need to check the crank journals for wear too so your local shop guy will probably be the route to go to see if it can all meet spec and then decide. Might be less expensive to go with a replacement engine but then the boys won't get the experience doing the rebuild. Looking forward to seeing what you find and decide, good luck with it.
It would appear the last rebuild bored the block 0.60 and replaced pistons with 0.30. Gap around seems concentric, not egg shaped like from wear. Get a bore gauge and measure several places around and up and down the bore on each cylinder. Not seeing a wear ridge at top of cylinder leads me to the conclusion a predecessor screwed up. If, I restate IF your cylinders are round, and on size for .060, pistons and rings alone should not add up to a whole lot. Check for valve height before you tear down further, measure each at it's highest point from block. All the intake valves should match, as well as the exhaust. While the camshaft may be worn, consistency between valves should eliminate excessive versus normal wear. Once you have the pan off assess the rod play, you may get lucky enough and not have to resize and rebearing the rods. Plastigage and the manual will indicate the bearing surface clearances between rods and crank, and crank and block. It may be hard to justify the cost for a non production machine, however time with the boys and preserving the past can be priceless.
In the old days, like the times when that engine was new, and on a comparable engine, they used a special tool to measure the clearance between the piston and cylinder wall. This tool consisted of a tension scale connected to a feeler gauge of 0.003 inches thickness and 3/4 inch wide. The feeler was put between piston and cylinder all the way down the side of the piston. If more than 10 pounds was required to lift the feeler then the piston was too large. If less then 5 pounds was required, then piston was too loose.
Well I'm no engine guy but I'm going to say that you're going to need some new Pistons LOL normally blocks will get bored out 10 20 and 30 over. But that's thousands at least here in the states. And judging from that piston wiggle you might already be at 30 over.. if it's worth doing is worth doing right probably should get your crank and cam bearings replaced as well. If they're worn out . And they probably are. you'll have low oil pressure that's what happened on my International 300 utility. If you do happen to have all this work done make sure you run the best oil you can and since it's an older engine I've heard using an additive with high zinc helps. But you may want to do more research into that. Best of luck to you keep me posted with videos thoroughly enjoy them. thank you
It's been so hot down here spring flowers and sprouting the little yellow flowers all through the yard fruit trees are trying to sprout new leaves and just seen the news in 3 days it's supposed to be 30 to the 20s that's going to be sweating your butt off to build a fire in less than 24 hours. LOL
Ian I think if you take the ridge off the top of the cylinder and check if you can get oversized rings for your pistons,hone the cylinders to put crosshatch back on the cylinders, you might get away with this.Always remember if you build compression in the top part it may take a barring out in another spot.Good luck Joe Cook
Consider your time fartin’ around and the frustration tax in the field. Bore and oversize pistons so you can put it behind you. You know you love a cared-for machine and you’ll instil that value in your kids too. In the future you’ll know the kids are taking care of things right. That piece of mind doesn’t come in a pill lol. Happy New Year!
My suggestion being i built motors when younger for a living i suggest you get it bored and new pistons. That is a little much slop. the cheap way would be a set of like 1 or 2 over rings on the old pistons but chance are it wouldnt last long and blow the hell up. do it right IAN. Take care and have a great New Year
It is unfortunate but there looks to be an extreme amount of where in that unit. A rebuild or repower is probably the only way to go to have a successful rebuild. You will probably find cupped valves and sunken valve seats due to the extreme operating conditions that the unit lived under. Also inspection of the crank and cam may reveal more extreme wear yet. Unfortunately a repower or replacement engine may end up being your best option. Honestly it is a heritage machine it has family value, fixer up properly and the boys can enjoy her in the harvest and make her do what she was designed to do when she was new. I had the privilege of operating an old binder with my dad. He told the story of when he used to do this when he was a small boy. Still have the pictures and memories of operating that machine with him. Absolutely priceless.
My guess is, at least some of the rings are broken, allowing the piston to slop around in the bore, and likely caused the pistons themselves to wear down. Looks like they’re Std. size? I would put in a new set of pistons and rings, replace the valve guides (easy job), and replace the rod bearings. For what it’s worth, my truck has essentially the same engine (Chrysler 251) and it’s in a similar state. I have put 28,000 miles on it, and counting, waiting for a good deal to come up on a replacement engine. I finally found a 265 from a combine, nice tight engine, and am in the process of converting it to a truck engine. I wouldn’t even consider another type of engine. These flatheads are SO easy to work on, reliable, sound great, and will run practically forever.
With all the old farmalls I have worked on I think u can get buy with some new sleeve and rings clean up valves it might be not the rite way but for couple hours a year be fine or talk to motor guy see if u can get some over size rings might do the trick too get er up and running use some 2stroke oil with gas back in them days gas was leaded for lube hope u and your family have a happy new years
Ian, I would call some salvage yards up and see if you can find a replacement engine ortherwise the way it looks you will have to do a serious overhaul.
Cheapest way is mic the bores and see how close they are too each other and get bigger pistons. 10-20 thow bigger to close up the slop and get the a little bit bigger than the bores and file the rings down to fit. Make sure to mic the rings so they have expansion room. I've done that before and that engine was still running when dad sold the tractor 5 years later. Plowed many fields in that time. But they probably don't make pistons just a little bit oversized anymore, probably have to start at 30 thousands oversized.
I know everyone will tell you its worn out! But here in poor boy Appalachia we do what we must!! Over sized rings and you can even sleeve the cylinders if needed. It was running before right!? Just bad blow by? So yes I would mic it get the proper over sized rings and see how long I could get out of it!
Drain the crankcase, add back proper volume of 80-90-140, plus 1/2 cup sawdust per cylinder. Here maybe maple sawdust would do the trick initially. After a 20 minute break in run, drain and reserve the break in fluid, replace the same as above. Consult the Red Green Automotive Digest for preferred use of reserved fluid as to pancakes or waffles. Happy New Year Ian and family! -Bob...
A side comment; find the kids a couple of used Briggs and Stratton mower engines, Preferably horizontal crank. Have them take the engines completely apart placing them in a box, then reassemble them and get them running again. It’s affordable to make mistakes on these.
Take the block to a good machine shop and have them mic cylinders and crank. You may have to do some research for parts for it. Chrysler was using that same engine in the 40's. They were used a lot, even in marine applications with a water cooled exhaust manifold. I'm sure you will find parts for it. Check the cam and lifters for sure. When you pull the cam, make sure you keep the lifters in the same order they came out. Each lifter is worn to it's relative cam lobe. Hopefully the cam is good.
No easy way around it. Needs to be bored out and oversize pistons to fit the new bore. Crank needs to be inspected too. Grind valves and valve seats. Also new oil pump and water pump. I am a retired mechanic. Rebuilt a few of those. Worked on a lot of old Massey Combines. Do it right for sure. Never seen that much piston to cylinder wear!!!
I'd just toss a set of rings in it and let it go. If it only works for a couple years then you're winning. If you're going to bore it over, you're going to end up doing everything, all bearings, crank, rods and it's going to get expensive.
I'm sure the cylinders are worn and there is ring groove at the top. If you don't enlarge the bore and get the bore cleaned up you will probably break the top rings when you fire it up. Also the pistons are undoubtedly worn. You will have to mic it to see but you will probably have go oversized on the pistons and rings anyway. I know you are trying to hold down cost but if it is worth doing then do it right. That is the best lesson your boys can learn.
I get the urge to do it cheap but cheap twice is more than doing exactly what it needs once. I'm like you, just a shade tree mechanic, but I can say with confidence rings won't fix that, and also you need to check if it's been bored over once before, if it has it's a fine line of overboring and making your cylinder walls to thin. By the looks of it, after boring, pistons, rings, journal bearings, etc, etc, etc, it may be more economical to just put a new old motor in it and call it a day.
I would measure the cylinder and see if you can get oversized pistons and rings that fit it . If you get the biggest piston and ring combo that will fit you will get compression until the cylinder gives way . You should also replace the main and Rod bearings as higher compression will cause a knock and probably break a piston rod if you don't. This is not the "right " thing to do but it will get it running for cheep ,boring it out probably wont work.
A number of years ago, we had a number of these engines powering cement mixers. They wear out. The bearings would hold up reasonably well, however cylinder bores, rings, valves, and valve guides were a different story. If available, I’d take it to a shop experienced in older engines for evaluation of the short block assembly. Explain your needs and concerns. The evaluation shouldn’t be too expensive and could be money well spent. Armed with their numbers and suggested options for repair, you can then make a wise decision. Based on your video, I’d say any chance of a worthwhile repair without the services of a machine shop is slim. Armed with a reconditioned short block, the family can be involved in the final assembly. Finding any used comparable machine opens the possibility of getting something else on its last legs. Know anyone clever enough to convert it to PTO power?
You will have to rebuild the engine with new pistons bearings and.rings as well.as doing up the head. My late father had a 1960s Massey 585 powered by a Chrysler Sid valve 6 similar to.this one and it.lasted well into the eighties before it gave out.
I would check into reboring and new pistons and show the boys how to do it right. Fixing old junkyard 60's chevy straight sixes tells me not to expect new rings to do more than they are designed. Having problems again right after that kind of teardown just sucks.
Would have been great to do a compression check prior to removing head to see where it is. Hopefully when healthy it has around 100 lbs of cold compression. All cylinders should be within about 10% of each other. Bores need to be checked with bore mic to see if they are egg shaped especially in the top 2" of cylinders. If cylinders are true and a good seals can be achieved on valves you can also use thinner head gasket to compensate for compression if needed. Can probably true head and remove some material if needed. Also a couple degrees advance of ignition timing can help compensate well. Just be sure it its not detonating.
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog should be able to find specs on that engine to see what the true factory bore is. Block should have a casting number on it somewhere. It appeared to have excessive clearance with piston flop. My guess is piston diameter should be roughly .0020-.0025. smaller than cylinder bore.
I've built a lot of those tugboat engines being as cheap as friggen possible, slapping rings in it will make it feel like a brand new engine...for about a year, then last another 4 years at your use rate before it's useless, then youll need to do a real rebuild... or watch it blow up in the field. That's some insane piston clearance.
Don't forget to check the crank bearings before spending any money they might be as bad as the pistons for wear. The old side valve has done well to run in that condition.
Ian, I pretty much agree with has already been said, especially mic the bores for out of round and consistent dimension top to bottom. Looking at that short block, how thin the material is between bores, and the slop of those pistons, I would not be surprised if this engine has already been bored out. If you are after period correct, then perhaps bore & sleeve the engine, new pistons to fit sleeves, magna-flux or crack checking the rods & other appropriate engine components. If you have not evaluated the crankshaft, cylinder head, and block deck, that will be yet more hurdles. Something to consider, is to look into whether something like a Chrysler slant 6 (225 cubic inch seem to be the most common) from a salvage/junk yard would work as a replacement engine if you can figure out an adaptor plate to make the engine mate up properly to the drive line. Parts are much more available and these engines are pretty plentiful so they are likely very cheap considering the cost of a proper rebuild. You could take your time and rebuild the original engine for later replacement if you want a period correct engine. Not long ago the head gasket went out on the wife's Dodge pickup. After replacing the head gasket, milling the head, replacing 6 fuel injectors with Bosch 275 hp RV injectors, ARP head studs, and having the head totally overhauled to include new threaded & freeze plugs, the old Cummins ran great but the bill for was an attention getter. I wanted to do this job ONE TIME, so I did it right. The Cummins was worth saving. That 1949 Chrysler six cylinder is also worth saving if you want period correct. Take the time to do it right. In the mean time a low cost replacement slant six or other inline 6 engine may be a good possibility. I would say that your farm got its money's worth out that 1949 Chrysler. Best of luck with it.
I'd LS swap it...... :^) Replacing the rings will not fix it, as the ring seal will be compromised by the piston flopping around in the hole. The rings won't/dont stabilize the piston. It may be cheaper to repower it than rebuild it. a motor from a wreck will be cheaper than a rebuild.
Ian, that is not a combine. That is a family heirloom. I am thinking even if you drop $25,000 or more on the thing it will be money well spent. Since it will only be running 3 hours a year, it will last at least 50 years. The memories will last well over 100 years.
With that amount of slop, and since you already have the head off, may I respectfully suggest that you take the rest of the engine apart, and do the job properly, no attempting to cut corners, or you'll end up in the same position again, in very short order. Check condition of Crankshaft, Camshaft, big and small ends on the con rods etc etc. Ain't no 5 minute job or cheap, but worth spending the money in the long run. Be interested to see how you get on - the Massey Harris 21(or is it perhaps a 21A ?) Combine is an iconic machine and definitely worth saving. From the little that I saw, it looks to be in pretty good shape ?
Hello Ian I hope you and your family are enjoying the Christmas holiday! I have been watching your videos for years and you have really helped provide perspective and guidance for my growing fledgeling operation. Do you produce queens for sale? If so do you have any available for spring 2022? I would like to promote brilliance in my apiary and we would be honored to have steppler queen stock in our operation. Thanks again for your videos! Have a very happy new year!
You need to pull the pistons, and measure the pistons and cylinders. Where is the wear? Are the pistons worn, the cylinder walls, or equal wear on both? For what you want to do, you may be able to get away with just putting new pistons in without having to bore out the cylinders. Odds are, a lot of the wear is the pistons, and new factory sized pistons will get rid of most of your slop. As long as the cylinders aren't egg shaped badly, I would just spend a couple hundred bucks on new pistons and slap it back together.
New rings and bearings from what I see but finding out if you can bore it again or find something similar to this engine and horsepower and pretty sure you will be able to make something work out of a late model car that has been recked and save some money.
Try calibrating your Co2 meter out doors and see what your readings are. Most meters needed to be calibrated in fresh air before entering the sample environment.
You are asking a question you already know the answer to. Assuming the machine is all original, you are going to fix it correctly. Fifteen years from now you will still be smiling when you give your grandkids a ride in the old girl.
More than likely you’ll need to bore the cylinders with over sized pistons and rings. My guess is that cylinder walls are too damaged from the amount of piston slap to just put new rings on the pistons. The only way to really know is to remove every piston, and inspect both piston and cylinder for wear, roundness, and size.
If that a diesel engine you still want to rebore it but you can get replaceable sleeve take up the space and just need to replace them and the rings next time
It the rings that are important. Do you have any cylinder wall scoring? Highly likely valve guides are worn out. You will also need a new cam and bearings. Worn cam lobes will rob all your ponies too. Worn vale guides cause high oil consumption You probably want to stay original… it would be better to go with a Cummins motor.
This is just a thought…. It would bee 🐝 nice to go back with a case IH spinning cleaner on your radiator. All it takes is one overheating and your new build is toast. Those case rotary screen cleaners really work well.
If your important bolts look good and no damaged threads … then I would not spend money replacing them. Make sure and source the correct tap to chase the threaded holes in the block. Thoroughly blow them out after running the tap in each one . Then oil them upon installation of the head. If you think the engine has been hot before , make sure the mechanic magnafluxes the head for cracks.
Hate to spend your money Ian but to much slappity slap there for replacement rings. Maybe a replacement engine, cheaper? If kept and bored out, do the main bearings and chain too. Cheaper than a thrown crank with the better compression/HP. Started driving a Farmalls 50 years ago but I've only rebuilt Porsche boxers. My thoughts with good luck.
You almost don't even need to bore it (- the bore is big probably enough!). A set of 40thou" pistons would probably fit fine. :) Joke. Actually, you need to find the specs and measure the state it's in - is the wear on the pistons or the bores? You may find the bores are oval, thus will need to be bored to bring them back into round. If you (/kids) can strip it and take a bare block to the machine shop, you may find the cost is actually quite reasonable.
Since you don't want to spend alot of money resleeving it. Prob cheaper to deck the block and bore over with new pistons and call it a day. Those pistons look like they have more slack than what a set of rings could seal. If anything do the poor boy special. Order .10 over pistons and throw them in. If they don't fit then machine shop it lol.
Only completely reparation in this situation is the cheapest way because you will pay some parts twice in a short time .... there is no place to save money in this action ... each step have to be correctly done if you want to have a reliable result at the end .... if you skip some steps you will open a lot of chance for new collapse and "Ian doing it again" .... happy hollydays
Yep that is to much piston slap . Some engines do offer a over size rings an some do not . I think I would bore an put pistons an rings . But it will tell what can be done after you mike the bore ???? You need those numbers first . Hope that helps
Es normal que se desgasten así, tenemos uno en una cockshutt y se le rectificaron los cilindros 1 vez y otra cambio de anillos. Trabajaban muy duro esos motores
You likely won’t be happy if you don’t bore it and replace the pistons and rings. With that much wear i would guess the bearings and oil pump are about as badly worn. It would be a great project if you have a curious youngster wanting to dig in and you really should be able to do it fairly low budget on your own.
It looks so loose it makes me think those are the wrong pistons for the motor. .002" to .003" cylinder to piston clearance is good, yours looks to be about .030" to .040" clearance, or .060 to .080 difference in diameter.
Way too much piston slap I would suggest bore and oversized pistons if you can find them, you are asking too much from rings to make up the gap. If it had aluminium pistons they can pein them up a little, but no way as much as you need, the bores are probably oval anyways because of wear and slap. The current pistons are probably cast iron, this is why you got the long life from the unit. Just a suggestion from way out of the ball park, would it be cheaper just to adapt a similar sized modern plant, I drive a 55 Chrysler De Soto six as my daily drive and it has never had the head off, they just keep going.
Get the pistons Knurled. Get a oversize set of rings and file the end gaps to spec. No point in spending a fortune on a engine thats only ran 3 hours per year.
"What do you guys think"?
I think you should do a complete, precision rebuild, or select a period correct replacement to rebuild.
I have been wrenching for 50 years and have to hand it to you; NEVER seen pistons that sloppy in the bore.
Do it once, do it right. I know you will because that's your way.
But in case you're tempted to take a short cut, remember the old, ace mechanic's snarky warning:
"You can always afford to do it right THE SECOND time!"
:O
LOL
Ian, my BF is a savant mechanic! He machines, builds & rebuilds race car and other engines, heads, valves, etc. (he actually completely rebuilt a bunch of haying equipment for me on the weekends this summer). Anyway, he said NO WAY can you just add rings. The whole engine likely needs to be rebuilt -valve job & guides. But he says if you do it will last another 40years+. Good news is he says you can still get the parts.
The squeaking footsteps in the snow tells it all.
Here's what a very knowledgeable friend said about rebuilding a worn out flat 6 in a 1940's military vehicle that will not be ran but a few hours each year. Sounds a bit like your situation.
"If you pull the head, you’ll find your pistons are probably worn severely, rings are shot and cracked , valve guides are sloppy.
Spend some money and you can get your engine running pretty good for doing a one day job. I’ve told former customers in the past this over and over.
Pull the pistons and replace the same size with new pistons and new rings , hone the cylinders out.
If there is a large Groove that your fingernails can grab at the very top of the cylinder you can use a ridge cutter that is a manual cutter to take that ridge out so you can push the piston out. sometimes the rings will get stuck on the groove that’s caused from severe cylinder wear.
If you’re oil pressure has been OK just replace the rod bearings, if you’re really enthusiastic replace the main bearings.
I always felt if you had to replace main bearings you should pull the engine out and rebuild the entire engine properly including new cam bearings.
Replace your oil pump with a new one and a new oil filter pick up screen.
With an engine having that much time on it you’ll probably find all your valve guides are sloppy at this stage it’s easy to remove the valves . you can either relap the seats with valve grinding compound and see how they look , meaning is the seat in the center of the valve or you can install new guides and new valves to take care of any problem you may have hopefully you won’t have to cut your valve seats.
So to recap
Replace pistons and rings with the same size the engine was bored out to originally.
Replace rod bearings maybe main bearings
Replace engine oil pump and pick up screen
Probably replace valve guides and valves,
Break the cylinder wall dark looking haze with a nice shiny cross hatch in each cylinder. Keep the honeing down to a minimum so you do not enlarge the bore."
Hope this helps!!
I would make sure that the rod bearings are good all the way down in bore out the cylinders and go with sleeves
Cylinder bore is most likely worn as seen by the piston slap. Is there a ridge in the cylinder around a 1/4” from the top that you can feel? Just getting new rings won’t help because of the amount of piston slap. Would need to be bored with oversized pistons and rings unfortunately.
Looks like a great family project. I wish I had been part of something like that as a teenager.
Sit the boys down and let them listen to the options. Talk it over and let them help decide. 5 minutes hands on beats hours in a book. The block is not the object, teaching your son's how to understand and correct the problem is. You could be an old Vermonter. Happy New Year.
Good point
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog I'd like to see the end result
OMG! Old Vermonter = Bernie Sanders Jr?
Hone the cylinders, knurl or replace the pistons, new rings, lap the valves unless they need regrind, good for three hours a year. My high school project 1958. edit; Heads are likely worn just as bad. Pop can shims will tighten the con rod bearings.
Ian, that combine is a family heirloom. How many generations have been running it ? Spend the money, do it right, it'll cost buckets more if you jury rig now and leave the proper fix for when your children are looking at it trying to keep it running for their kids.
While you are at it, steam clean, maybe paint. Dont do a '2 years good enough' fix on it, put another 20 years of life into it. You may cringe writing the cheque today, but you'll be thankful in another decade, and moreso 2 decades from now.
Your machine shop should have the best answers you need. Looks like it's been bored out .030" over the last time it was overhauled. Some motors can be bored out just so much. I've seen old engines with real sloppy bores get rebuilt with sleeves to bring the bore back to original spec.. The other wear surfaces ( crank & camshaft) will tell you whether or not to look for another engine with less wear to rebuild. Don't forget the oil pump. no matter how good the rebuild was, if the pump isn't putting out enough lube oil at the proper pressure, it's money down the drain in quick order. The oil pump will wear just like the other components.
By the look of the amount you can move the piston I’m not sure it can be even bored out, it may be gone to far. Absolutely not just new rings. 25 years master technician and I’ve never seen one that loose but I’m not familiar with that particular engine either. It needs to have a rebuilder measure it.
Good afternoon from Grand Forks
Whoa! It actually ran like that? That in itself is impressive. Eings are not gonna fix that.. If it's that bad, it's time for a complete redo. Fixing one part just makes it harder on the parts that were ignored and could mess up the parts that were fixed. Better to drag her out once and be done with it, especially since you don't seem to be planning on getting rid of it. I have no doubt you and your boys would be happier with the knowledge it was completely redone.
Teach your boys the proper way to do that repair. It will pay dividends to them for the rest of their lives. That motor has been a good one. I have never seen "piston slap" like that before. I'm an old man now and I understand wanting to save money, however, bore that useful motor and the education the boys learn will make it all worthwhile. Not to mention the confidence you will have in knowing it was a job well done. Cheers fro the Adirondack Mountains. BTW, I really like your channels content.
Pistons that loose, rebuild! No choice. You won't find rings that can cure that. The loose also puts pressure on the bearings. You might have wear on the crankshaft too. A complete rebuilt is in order and these old engines a made more simple than the newer ones, thus cheaper to fix! Thanks for another great video! Happy New Year!
*Happy New Year Steppler farms*
No, you cannot tighten that.
Bore it out and spend a little, carve out a couple hours a day. Many hands make light work! This will be a project your kids will benefit from through life. I appreciate my Dad a lot for showing me how to work on engines when I was 16. :)
If you are going to fix it, do it the right way, Like the shed, you needed 20 more feet in order to have a nice shed. Blessings dean
I have no idea, but I love reading the comments...what an amazing community!
Isn’t this good stuff?! I have messenger comments as well. It has helped me learn a lot
Yes rings will tighten it up! You can purchase over sized rings. You need to mic the piston walls to know exactly what you need.
I have a 1949 Chrysler six like this you could have from a ‘49 DeSoto. It was rebuilt in 1970 and has been on an engine stand since that time.
Just like the 20 feet you needed to have put on, do the right thing. You know you will just use it two to three hours for actual combine work, but you will be trailering and driving it to shows and parades. You need not go full period rebuild. You will need to do just a bit more than you currently think. Lest you regret not doing that one thing you don't deem cost efficient. I whole heartedly support your children doing as much as possible, up to and including taking them to the machine shop that will be doing the hard work. In the end it is your combine and I will watch your progress here. I pray you do not take short cuts that you may soon regret.
Here's the thing, you could get rings and it will increase the compression, but with that much slop (play), it won't last and you'll do more damage to it, also increase risk of more catastrophic failure. There is plenty of meat in that motor, I'm sure that running it that loose for all those years has turned your once round cylinders somewhat oval, so you need a machinist to see if going say .60 over will bring it back into being true. New oversized pistons, possibly sleeves if you want it to last, but I'd replace the whole bottom end, get the crank cleaned up, hopefully bearing journals are still true, replace the cam and any worn out valve train components including getting the seats machined and see if it needs to be decked.
It's a big job, parts expensive, you might find aftermarket oversized rebuild kits cheaper. It might also be just as expensive to buy a rebuilt one online, I'm sure some sells a fully rebuilt version.
I personally would also look into seeing if I could replace it with something more modern and reliable. Farmers are crafty, and I bet there are plans, possibly modern conversion kits for much newer, cheaper, lighter and more readily available and reliable engines.
Oh but the sound of the straight pipe flat top 6 is half the experience lol 👍
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog I'm sure there is no coming close to replicating that sound unless the replacement is another straight six, but even then, the firing order, timing, cam profile, manifold size, all will impact that glorious sound.
Maybe you step it up a notch? Hack a cheap truck LS motor on there with a budget aftermarket EFI system on it. Won't be much of an overall difference size-wise but the sound of straight pipes (especially open headers) on an LS is an eargasm, even if an LS is super overkill for this use and really the wrong power profile, could fix that with a cam though 😁
I had a '48 irrigation pump with flathead six. A guy was going to machine head and valve seats and found them to be stellite and they gave him fits, so it may be worth checking before buggering them up.
Great idea introducing the kid to mechanical workings. Enthusiasm is highest IMHO by working on something that you can later ride,/drive, i.e. go-kart or dirt bike.
You tried 6: Most surfaces wear fairly even, so the cylinder walls are probably tapered and out-of-round also. Values too worn to re-use, and possibly little meat left on valve seats. Hopefully someone has a used engine that you can swap. On that hasn't been around the world and back! Why don't you post a block serial number, and maybe the new year will come with resolve. Come on guys, let get to looking! Happy new year.🙏🎉
Years ago they used to knurl piston skirts to expand the piston to tighten them up. Not many still have those tools or the knowledge to use them. The top of the piston is the smallest part so some rocking is normal. I also notice that the piston seems able to wobble in any direction which makes me wonder about the condition of the wrist pin bushings.
looks like you have alot of great comments and sugestions . your machinist will know best , sleeves + .
If you want to fix something very old, the best way is to buy something new. Have a nice new year.
This will never be used for production harvesting, so maximum performance is not a concern, just being able to do demonstration passes is the goal, so while a full rebuild and sleeves would be the Future Generations way, it's not "needed" for your purposes.
I would have your friend measure the bores and see if it can be bored oversize and improve the slop, and if so, bore it and put the next size up pistons in it.
But if it's already overbored to the limit, and putting sleeves in is too expensive, then do a farmer rebuild with the boys, slap new bearings in, put new rings in, maybe oversize to take up some slap, hone the cylinders, dress the valves, and put it back together and see how well it runs.
If it runs fine for what you need, great! You just did an in frame rebuild with your boys!
If it's still lacking and you need to take it out and get more invasive and spend more money, that's more learning with the boys.
But the cost of bearings and rings is not going to be very high, and I think it's worth it to give it a shot doing it the farmer shop way, since the goals are engine rebuild experience with your boys, with an engine that runs a little bit better at the end.
And remember, it got to this level of wear in production service, so it still ran well enough to operate, so a little improvement may be all right for a couple of hours a year!
And maybe in a couple of years with an engine that runs "a little bit better" you will reach the decision that spending the money and doing a full shop rebuild is worth it, but you won't be out much money if you just try doing an in frame with the boys, and gain a lot of valuable time and experience.
And yes, lots of other accurate comments about oval cylinders and needs sleeves and all the right ways to do it, but again, this is NOT a production machine, this is a toy and a history demonstration, and so if you can do it like an old farmer, and improve the performance for a few bucks in rings and bearings, than you are doing it the traditional way!
As a former kid, I personally would find it fun to do the rebuild and see how it works, and then go from there.
And yes, oversized rings and such will probably only improve things for a short time, but it won't cause more damage, and may last a few years, or may still suck so bad that you decide to send it to the shop, but it's still something you are doing together with the boys, and however it turns out, they learn! Lol
Oh, and since that engine is part of your history, I would spend more money to fully rebuild it, rather than grab some junkyard engine and replace it.
If you were making a production machine, maybe a junkyard engine would be the smart option, but I see that particular engine to be the heart of the project that you are doing, which is getting YOUR machine able to spend a couple of hours a year in the field.
And maybe you can find a matching engine and swap it out, but I would still keep this one for the future day when you or your kids decide they want to rebuild it and return it to original.
Good advice
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog oh, one other factor. If the pistons are slapping too badly, where they are tearing the engine apart, running it like this could lead to catastrophic failure and ruin the block, so I would go easy on it if you just in frame it, but if you were running it before without hearing bad piston slap, it may not be that bad.
When I said not causing any damage, I was thinking that if you just put new rings in, and it scores the cylinder, the next step will probably be sleeves anyway, and a little extra scoring or wear won't matter in that case.
But catastrophic failure is certainly something to avoid!
I don't remember now if you have had it running recently, but if it was running decently, just low power, as opposed to banging and shaking, it might have some life left... Lol
First!!!!! We had 21C here today. There are guards on the entrances of the hives tonight. We have thunderstorms and tornados here in the Southeastern US tonight. Those pistons are worn out. I would measure the bore and compare it to the diameter of a new piston. If you can replace the pistons and rings it should run for a long time. Thanks Ian.
If she shoves a rod through the side, it's game over 😢.
It is the heart of the machine and is well worth doing properly. If there is that much slap in the pistons, you can almost take it as said that the big ends and crankshaft will require attention also. It's not worth taking the risk. It's a lovely old 21 you have. 👍👍
Depends on what you want. Clearly some folks don't agree but rings would make a difference. all the wear you see on the cylinder wore the rings out as well. New rings, cut the ridge and deglaze and it would be better. No mechanic would ever agree. But, then again a mechanic would suggest oversize and while you have it apart. full rebuild. Rings aren't a lot of money so it wouldn't be a big deal to try it. cut the ridge, deglaze. stick in the rings then bolt it back together mount it outside the machine and fire it up. Bench test. if it works. reinstall it. if not then you have a decision to make. bite the bullet or find a engine in better shape.
Locate correct specs from Chrysler. There’s new tolerances and serviceable tolerances given on many specs. Whatever you can bring into serviceable tolerance specs with minimal $$$ sounds like the way to find the happy medium of overhaul cost and expected amount of use. You won’t know for sure what needs to be done until you have data. Very cool specimen! I’d love to see it run again if I had one. Good Luck!
Mine, I take it to the machine shop, rebuild, teach the the boys do it right. Do it once. Look at it like the easy loader, when you want to use it you want to use it.
I agree with Eric who commented early on, you need to measure things up and see where you are before you can make a decision. Rings won't do it for what looks like excessive wear in the cylinders but if you have enough cylinder left and they are not too far out of round then you may be able to get the block bored out and go with oversize pistons. No real way to tell except by getting it measured up. You will need to check the crank journals for wear too so your local shop guy will probably be the route to go to see if it can all meet spec and then decide. Might be less expensive to go with a replacement engine but then the boys won't get the experience doing the rebuild. Looking forward to seeing what you find and decide, good luck with it.
It would appear the last rebuild bored the block 0.60 and replaced pistons with 0.30. Gap around seems concentric, not egg shaped like from wear. Get a bore gauge and measure several places around and up and down the bore on each cylinder. Not seeing a wear ridge at top of cylinder leads me to the conclusion a predecessor screwed up. If, I restate IF your cylinders are round, and on size for .060, pistons and rings alone should not add up to a whole lot. Check for valve height before you tear down further, measure each at it's highest point from block. All the intake valves should match, as well as the exhaust. While the camshaft may be worn, consistency between valves should eliminate excessive versus normal wear. Once you have the pan off assess the rod play, you may get lucky enough and not have to resize and rebearing the rods. Plastigage and the manual will indicate the bearing surface clearances between rods and crank, and crank and block.
It may be hard to justify the cost for a non production machine, however time with the boys and preserving the past can be priceless.
In the old days, like the times when that engine was new, and on a comparable engine, they used a special tool to measure the clearance between the piston and cylinder wall. This tool consisted of a tension scale connected to a feeler gauge of 0.003 inches thickness and 3/4 inch wide. The feeler was put between piston and cylinder all the way down the side of the piston. If more than 10 pounds was required to lift the feeler then the piston was too large. If less then 5 pounds was required, then piston was too loose.
Bore and sleeve along with new rings. Brand new lol
Well I'm no engine guy but I'm going to say that you're going to need some new Pistons LOL normally blocks will get bored out 10 20 and 30 over. But that's thousands at least here in the states. And judging from that piston wiggle you might already be at 30 over.. if it's worth doing is worth doing right probably should get your crank and cam bearings replaced as well. If they're worn out . And they probably are. you'll have low oil pressure that's what happened on my International 300 utility. If you do happen to have all this work done make sure you run the best oil you can and since it's an older engine I've heard using an additive with high zinc helps. But you may want to do more research into that. Best of luck to you keep me posted with videos thoroughly enjoy them. thank you
It's been so hot down here spring flowers and sprouting the little yellow flowers all through the yard fruit trees are trying to sprout new leaves and just seen the news in 3 days it's supposed to be 30 to the 20s that's going to be sweating your butt off to build a fire in less than 24 hours. LOL
Ian I think if you take the ridge off the top of the cylinder and check if you can get oversized rings for your pistons,hone the cylinders to put crosshatch back on the cylinders, you might get away with this.Always remember if you build compression in the top part it may take a barring out in another spot.Good luck Joe Cook
Consider your time fartin’ around and the frustration tax in the field. Bore and oversize pistons so you can put it behind you. You know you love a cared-for machine and you’ll instil that value in your kids too. In the future you’ll know the kids are taking care of things right. That piece of mind doesn’t come in a pill lol. Happy New Year!
My suggestion being i built motors when younger for a living i suggest you get it bored and new pistons. That is a little much slop. the cheap way would be a set of like 1 or 2 over rings on the old pistons but chance are it wouldnt last long and blow the hell up. do it right IAN. Take care and have a great New Year
It is unfortunate but there looks to be an extreme amount of where in that unit. A rebuild or repower is probably the only way to go to have a successful rebuild. You will probably find cupped valves and sunken valve seats due to the extreme operating conditions that the unit lived under. Also inspection of the crank and cam may reveal more extreme wear yet. Unfortunately a repower or replacement engine may end up being your best option.
Honestly it is a heritage machine it has family value, fixer up properly and the boys can enjoy her in the harvest and make her do what she was designed to do when she was new. I had the privilege of operating an old binder with my dad. He told the story of when he used to do this when he was a small boy. Still have the pictures and memories of operating that machine with him. Absolutely priceless.
My guess is, at least some of the rings are broken, allowing the piston to slop around in the bore, and likely caused the pistons themselves to wear down. Looks like they’re Std. size? I would put in a new set of pistons and rings, replace the valve guides (easy job), and replace the rod bearings. For what it’s worth, my truck has essentially the same engine (Chrysler 251) and it’s in a similar state. I have put 28,000 miles on it, and counting, waiting for a good deal to come up on a replacement engine. I finally found a 265 from a combine, nice tight engine, and am in the process of converting it to a truck engine. I wouldn’t even consider another type of engine. These flatheads are SO easy to work on, reliable, sound great, and will run practically forever.
With all the old farmalls I have worked on I think u can get buy with some new sleeve and rings clean up valves it might be not the rite way but for couple hours a year be fine or talk to motor guy see if u can get some over size rings might do the trick too get er up and running use some 2stroke oil with gas back in them days gas was leaded for lube hope u and your family have a happy new years
Ian, I would call some salvage yards up and see if you can find a replacement engine ortherwise the way it looks you will have to do a serious overhaul.
Cheapest way is mic the bores and see how close they are too each other and get bigger pistons. 10-20 thow bigger to close up the slop and get the a little bit bigger than the bores and file the rings down to fit. Make sure to mic the rings so they have expansion room. I've done that before and that engine was still running when dad sold the tractor 5 years later. Plowed many fields in that time. But they probably don't make pistons just a little bit oversized anymore, probably have to start at 30 thousands oversized.
I know everyone will tell you its worn out! But here in poor boy Appalachia we do what we must!! Over sized rings and you can even sleeve the cylinders if needed. It was running before right!? Just bad blow by? So yes I would mic it get the proper over sized rings and see how long I could get out of it!
Drain the crankcase, add back proper volume of 80-90-140, plus 1/2 cup sawdust per cylinder. Here maybe maple sawdust would do the trick initially. After a 20 minute break in run, drain and reserve the break in fluid, replace the same as above. Consult the Red Green Automotive Digest for preferred use of reserved fluid as to pancakes or waffles. Happy New Year Ian and family! -Bob...
A side comment; find the kids a couple of used Briggs and Stratton mower engines, Preferably horizontal crank. Have them take the engines completely apart placing them in a box, then reassemble them and get them running again. It’s affordable to make mistakes on these.
I learned a long time ago, do it right the first time it's cheaper that way even if you spend a few dollars more.
If there's little or no ridge on the cylinders, replace the bearings, rings, pistons and the probably the oil pump. Should last a good long time.
Take the block to a good machine shop and have them mic cylinders and crank. You may have to do some research for parts for it. Chrysler was using that same engine in the 40's. They were used a lot, even in marine applications with a water cooled exhaust manifold. I'm sure you will find parts for it. Check the cam and lifters for sure. When you pull the cam, make sure you keep the lifters in the same order they came out. Each lifter is worn to it's relative cam lobe. Hopefully the cam is good.
No easy way around it. Needs to be bored out and oversize pistons to fit the new bore. Crank needs to be inspected too. Grind valves and valve seats. Also new oil pump and water pump. I am a retired mechanic. Rebuilt a few of those. Worked on a lot of old Massey Combines. Do it right for sure. Never seen that much piston to cylinder wear!!!
Happy New Year FRIENDs of GBL…BLESSINGS TO YOU ALWAYS!
I'd just toss a set of rings in it and let it go. If it only works for a couple years then you're winning. If you're going to bore it over, you're going to end up doing everything, all bearings, crank, rods and it's going to get expensive.
I'm sure the cylinders are worn and there is ring groove at the top. If you don't enlarge the bore and get the bore cleaned up you will probably break the top rings when you fire it up. Also the pistons are undoubtedly worn. You will have to mic it to see but you will probably have go oversized on the pistons and rings anyway. I know you are trying to hold down cost but if it is worth doing then do it right. That is the best lesson your boys can learn.
Measure the bore. Decide from there.
I get the urge to do it cheap but cheap twice is more than doing exactly what it needs once. I'm like you, just a shade tree mechanic, but I can say with confidence rings won't fix that, and also you need to check if it's been bored over once before, if it has it's a fine line of overboring and making your cylinder walls to thin. By the looks of it, after boring, pistons, rings, journal bearings, etc, etc, etc, it may be more economical to just put a new old motor in it and call it a day.
I would measure the cylinder and see if you can get oversized pistons and rings that fit it . If you get the biggest piston and ring combo that will fit you will get compression until the cylinder gives way . You should also replace the main and Rod bearings as higher compression will cause a knock and probably break a piston rod if you don't.
This is not the "right " thing to do but it will get it running for cheep ,boring it out probably wont work.
Well I’m of no help when it comes to mechanics 😑
On another note looks freakin’ 🥶 cold!!
A number of years ago, we had a number of these engines powering cement mixers. They wear out. The bearings would hold up reasonably well, however cylinder bores, rings, valves, and valve guides were a different story. If available, I’d take it to a shop experienced in older engines for evaluation of the short block assembly. Explain your needs and concerns. The evaluation shouldn’t be too expensive and could be money well spent. Armed with their numbers and suggested options for repair, you can then make a wise decision. Based on your video, I’d say any chance of a worthwhile repair without the services of a machine shop is slim. Armed with a reconditioned short block, the family can be involved in the final assembly. Finding any used comparable machine opens the possibility of getting something else on its last legs. Know anyone clever enough to convert it to PTO power?
You will have to rebuild the engine with new pistons bearings and.rings as well.as doing up the head.
My late father had a 1960s Massey 585 powered by a Chrysler Sid valve 6 similar to.this one and it.lasted well into the eighties before it gave out.
I would check into reboring and new pistons and show the boys how to do it right. Fixing old junkyard 60's chevy straight sixes tells me not to expect new rings to do more than they are designed. Having problems again right after that kind of teardown just sucks.
Would have been great to do a compression check prior to removing head to see where it is. Hopefully when healthy it has around 100 lbs of cold compression. All cylinders should be within about 10% of each other. Bores need to be checked with bore mic to see if they are egg shaped especially in the top 2" of cylinders. If cylinders are true and a good seals can be achieved on valves you can also use thinner head gasket to compensate for compression if needed. Can probably true head and remove some material if needed. Also a couple degrees advance of ignition timing can help compensate well. Just be sure it its not detonating.
50 lbs compression across all cylinders
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog should be able to find specs on that engine to see what the true factory bore is. Block should have a casting number on it somewhere. It appeared to have excessive clearance with piston flop. My guess is piston diameter should be roughly .0020-.0025. smaller than cylinder bore.
I've built a lot of those tugboat engines being as cheap as friggen possible, slapping rings in it will make it feel like a brand new engine...for about a year, then last another 4 years at your use rate before it's useless, then youll need to do a real rebuild... or watch it blow up in the field. That's some insane piston clearance.
I found multiple rebuilt short blocks for $1500-2000 so keep that in mind if you decide to really get into it. (Which I implore you to do)
That motor I believe is very common, fork lifts, airport equipment, welder, water pump. You might find a better motor used, rather than rebuld
Don't forget to check the crank bearings before spending any money they might be as bad as the pistons for wear. The old side valve has done well to run in that condition.
I can tell that it must very cold by the way the snow squeaks when you walk.
Ian, I pretty much agree with has already been said, especially mic the bores for out of round and consistent dimension top to bottom. Looking at that short block, how thin the material is between bores, and the slop of those pistons, I would not be surprised if this engine has already been bored out. If you are after period correct, then perhaps bore & sleeve the engine, new pistons to fit sleeves, magna-flux or crack checking the rods & other appropriate engine components. If you have not evaluated the crankshaft, cylinder head, and block deck, that will be yet more hurdles. Something to consider, is to look into whether something like a Chrysler slant 6 (225 cubic inch seem to be the most common) from a salvage/junk yard would work as a replacement engine if you can figure out an adaptor plate to make the engine mate up properly to the drive line. Parts are much more available and these engines are pretty plentiful so they are likely very cheap considering the cost of a proper rebuild. You could take your time and rebuild the original engine for later replacement if you want a period correct engine. Not long ago the head gasket went out on the wife's Dodge pickup. After replacing the head gasket, milling the head, replacing 6 fuel injectors with Bosch 275 hp RV injectors, ARP head studs, and having the head totally overhauled to include new threaded & freeze plugs, the old Cummins ran great but the bill for was an attention getter. I wanted to do this job ONE TIME, so I did it right. The Cummins was worth saving. That 1949 Chrysler six cylinder is also worth saving if you want period correct. Take the time to do it right. In the mean time a low cost replacement slant six or other inline 6 engine may be a good possibility. I would say that your farm got its money's worth out that 1949 Chrysler. Best of luck with it.
I'd LS swap it...... :^) Replacing the rings will not fix it, as the ring seal will be compromised by the piston flopping around in the hole. The rings won't/dont stabilize the piston.
It may be cheaper to repower it than rebuild it. a motor from a wreck will be cheaper than a rebuild.
Ian, that is not a combine. That is a family heirloom. I am thinking even if you drop $25,000 or more on the thing it will be money well spent. Since it will only be running 3 hours a year, it will last at least 50 years. The memories will last well over 100 years.
With that amount of slop, and since you already have the head off, may I respectfully suggest that you take the rest of the engine apart, and do the job properly, no attempting to cut corners, or you'll end up in the same position again, in very short order. Check condition of Crankshaft, Camshaft, big and small ends on the con rods etc etc. Ain't no 5 minute job or cheap, but worth spending the money in the long run.
Be interested to see how you get on - the Massey Harris 21(or is it perhaps a 21A ?) Combine is an iconic machine and definitely worth saving. From the little that I saw, it looks to be in pretty good shape ?
Hello Ian I hope you and your family are enjoying the Christmas holiday! I have been watching your videos for years and you have really helped provide perspective and guidance for my growing fledgeling operation. Do you produce queens for sale? If so do you have any available for spring 2022? I would like to promote brilliance in my apiary and we would be honored to have steppler queen stock in our operation.
Thanks again for your videos! Have a very happy new year!
I sell queen cells and nucs but not mated queens
You need to pull the pistons, and measure the pistons and cylinders. Where is the wear? Are the pistons worn, the cylinder walls, or equal wear on both? For what you want to do, you may be able to get away with just putting new pistons in without having to bore out the cylinders. Odds are, a lot of the wear is the pistons, and new factory sized pistons will get rid of most of your slop. As long as the cylinders aren't egg shaped badly, I would just spend a couple hundred bucks on new pistons and slap it back together.
New rings and bearings from what I see but finding out if you can bore it again or find something similar to this engine and horsepower and pretty sure you will be able to make something work out of a late model car that has been recked and save some money.
Try calibrating your Co2 meter out doors and see what your readings are. Most meters needed to be calibrated in fresh air before entering the sample environment.
Interesting
Let the professionals fix it, make some extra nucs and sell them to pay for it
You are asking a question you already know the answer to. Assuming the machine is all original, you are going to fix it correctly. Fifteen years from now you will still be smiling when you give your grandkids a ride in the old girl.
More than likely you’ll need to bore the cylinders with over sized pistons and rings. My guess is that cylinder walls are too damaged from the amount of piston slap to just put new rings on the pistons. The only way to really know is to remove every piston, and inspect both piston and cylinder for wear, roundness, and size.
If that a diesel engine you still want to rebore it but you can get replaceable sleeve take up the space and just need to replace them and the rings next time
It the rings that are important. Do you have any cylinder wall scoring?
Highly likely valve guides are worn out. You will also need a new cam and bearings. Worn cam lobes will rob all your ponies too. Worn vale guides cause high oil consumption
You probably want to stay original… it would be better to go with a Cummins motor.
You will also have to grind the crank and go with -.010 bearings.
This is just a thought…. It would bee 🐝 nice to go back with a case IH spinning cleaner on your radiator. All it takes is one overheating and your new build is toast. Those case rotary screen cleaners really work well.
If your important bolts look good and no damaged threads … then I would not spend money replacing them. Make sure and source the correct tap to chase the threaded holes in the block. Thoroughly blow them out after running the tap in each one . Then oil them upon installation of the head. If you think the engine has been hot before , make sure the mechanic magnafluxes the head for cracks.
Hate to spend your money Ian but to much slappity slap there for replacement rings. Maybe a replacement engine, cheaper? If kept and bored out, do the main bearings and chain too. Cheaper than a thrown crank with the better compression/HP. Started driving a Farmalls 50 years ago but I've only rebuilt Porsche boxers. My thoughts with good luck.
You almost don't even need to bore it (- the bore is big probably enough!). A set of 40thou" pistons would probably fit fine. :) Joke.
Actually, you need to find the specs and measure the state it's in - is the wear on the pistons or the bores? You may find the bores are oval, thus will need to be bored to bring them back into round. If you (/kids) can strip it and take a bare block to the machine shop, you may find the cost is actually quite reasonable.
Since you don't want to spend alot of money resleeving it. Prob cheaper to deck the block and bore over with new pistons and call it a day. Those pistons look like they have more slack than what a set of rings could seal. If anything do the poor boy special. Order .10 over pistons and throw them in. If they don't fit then machine shop it lol.
Is that caused by cold starts with starting fluid ... Always wonder about that stuff
Only completely reparation in this situation is the cheapest way because you will pay some parts twice in a short time .... there is no place to save money in this action ... each step have to be correctly done if you want to have a reliable result at the end .... if you skip some steps you will open a lot of chance for new collapse and "Ian doing it again" .... happy hollydays
Yep that is to much piston slap . Some engines do offer a over size rings an some do not . I think I would bore an put pistons an rings . But it will tell what can be done after you mike the bore ???? You need those numbers first . Hope that helps
Es normal que se desgasten así, tenemos uno en una cockshutt y se le rectificaron los cilindros 1 vez y otra cambio de anillos. Trabajaban muy duro esos motores
Just have a machine shop do it right. Have never seen one that bad Ian.
You likely won’t be happy if you don’t bore it and replace the pistons and rings. With that much wear i would guess the bearings and oil pump are about as badly worn. It would be a great project if you have a curious youngster wanting to dig in and you really should be able to do it fairly low budget on your own.
It looks so loose it makes me think those are the wrong pistons for the motor. .002" to .003" cylinder to piston clearance is good, yours looks to be about .030" to .040" clearance, or .060 to .080 difference in diameter.
well it seems those pistons are allready 30 over so i bet the block is shot you can see the 30 stamped on the piston
You can't really put round rings in an oval hole
Well put
Watch project farm and putting restore in the engine oil to get better compression
czcams.com/video/VXIu3oo8z4c/video.html
Maybe a corn how big you have to board to tighten things up . Maybe buy a short block cuz you did get your money's worth out of that one
Way too much piston slap I would suggest bore and oversized pistons if you can find them, you are asking too much from rings to make up the gap. If it had aluminium pistons they can pein them up a little, but no way as much as you need, the bores are probably oval anyways because of wear and slap. The current pistons are probably cast iron, this is why you got the long life from the unit. Just a suggestion from way out of the ball park, would it be cheaper just to adapt a similar sized modern plant, I drive a 55 Chrysler De Soto six as my daily drive and it has never had the head off, they just keep going.
Get the pistons Knurled. Get a oversize set of rings and file the end gaps to spec. No point in spending a fortune on a engine thats only ran 3 hours per year.