Best Geometry for a Reverse Tilting Trike #6
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- čas přidán 9. 06. 2024
- In this video, I show different tests to find the best geometry for the DIY Tadpole / Reverse Tilting Cargo Trike / Tricycle.
With the tests I find the best caster, camber, toe and steering ratio and tune for the Ackerman geometry.
If you are interested in the build, please check out the playlist:
• How to Make a Cargo Trike
You are welcome to find and download the CAD files:
sites.google.com/view/powerci...
Video chapters:
0:00 Intro
0:48 Tests
03:32 Caster
08:53 Toe
11:54 Camber
20:19 Steering Ratio
22:08 Final Geometry
25:50 Steering Ackerman
29:18 Future Improvements
33:32 Riding
Thank you to the artist of the end song for making it available in the CZcams Audio library:
Old Bossa by Twin Musicom is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license.
creativecommons.org/licenses/...
Artist: www.twinmusicom.org/ - Jak na to + styl
As the lead engineer of the original Arcimoto cyber trike project, good show friend.
Just checked out the Arcimoto. Looks pretty incredible, congratulations! And thank you so much for the compliment! Means a lot, coming from you! Cheers!
@thewerst8346 whatever happened to the MLM? Arcimoto made all kinds of noise about it then... crickets!
Seems Arcimoto is now defunct? Sorry to hear that if that’s the case, was excited for the new trike bike!
I always wondered what happened to those, I figured we'd be seeing fleets of them as delivery vehicles by now.
This is the most important video on tadpole tilting cargo trikes on youtube. Thank you very much
Thank you so much for your kind comment! I do try to make it useful for others.
I agree. This was very useful.
I've been working on something similar and my biggest problem has been steering and the other is I want to make mine all wheel drive and put hub motors in the front wheels, but then because of the Ackerman principle the motors would have to drive at different speeds when turning...and its a little bit too much software for me. So if you ever get there please make another video 😁
@@rogerdueck9725, thank you! Ya, now we start to see some cars with electronic differential. Even with two motors in the rear wheels such as the new Tesla Model S and X Plaid and Rivian trucks. But I agree that it's quite complex. Cheers!
@@pedro-nevesThankyou for this video and your video of your build. These titling cargo bikes have always impressed me and seeing your videos about how it works was great!!! Have you seen the ili cargo bikes, they have some interesting tilting bikes, it might give you some inputs for future developments, thanks again it's inspiring to see people like you create cool products in your own back yard
@@pedro-neveswhere are you located? Are yiu in Europe,
Castor and Camber work in tandem. As you have observed, a lot of caster will make your bike stable at speed but when riding slow, it tends to 'fall' into the curve. This is because as you turn the wheels, the frame of the bike moves lower. Therefore the weight of the bike acts as a force that wants to increase steer angle. Camber has the opposite effect, when you steer away from straight, camber will lift your bike (with 0° caster) . Therefore the weight will always push it back to its lowest position, which is going straight. By choosing caster, you can control high speed stability, by matching camber you can restore / adjust low speed stability.
Toe at 0° is usally for best efficiency, which i guess is most important in bikes. If your ball joints do have a little play toe out / toe in will put preload on them and they wont flop around all the time. This preload techinque is also used because ball joints have a reduced livetime if the direction of force does change often. This may be irrelevant on a bike that does a lot less miles and is way lighter.
As a rule of thumb, 20° caster is already unuasally high and compensation by camber will not work perfectly anymore. typ. is 5-15° in the applications i know
Another factor you havent touched on is the length of the control arms. Usually, the lower arm is longer than the upper arm. This gives the effect off added camber when the suspension is compressed. One reason for this is to eliminate tire scrub when going over bumps, the other reason i believe is added stability when carrying heavy cargo. This may also be a reason why lengthening your lower control arm for added camber gave you such benefits. However it can also be done by moving the frame mounting of the upper control arm further outside.
And when changing suspension geometry, always check that the sterring rods and their joints are still correctly spaced in the plane of the other joints, otherwise you will introduce bump steer. Bump steer is when compressing the suspension changes toe.
Very cool project of yours and i completely understand that a test must be reduced to some variables, thank you for the work you put into this experiment!
Uauu, thank you for the explanations on the impact of geometries and the relations with each other. I hope others interested in the geometry go ahead and read the comments. There is just so much juice in them! Truly appreciate it.
I'll just confirm that the lower wishbone is longer tan the upper, designed to have zero scrub radius. And that I compensated the spacing of the steering arms with that T in the front steering pivot. I did have bump steer before this part but not anymore.
Thank you so much!
Exactly, I was going to post the same thing. It is also true that if you have power steering, you don't have to even know its is harder to turn. I build r/c cars, it all done by electronics, not human.
Brilliant comment. Thanks for the benefit of your expertise and clear language. There’s so many variables at play and so much fabrication involved in arriving at a working prototype. I wonder if a simplified 3d model could be 3d printed desktop size to study the tilting and turning geometry. Then visualizing the things you describe would be easier. What an amazing engineering design tool that would be and it would be fun to have a toy sized version on one’s desk. Tilting tadpole cargo bikes and recumbent HPV nerds would line up to see their design notions take shape before all the expense of cutting metal.
@@ciberbri59 totally agree on trying out things with reduced 3D printed models. Actually, this is precisely how I started this project: czcams.com/video/UylIv7d50uQ/video.htmlsi=IRATRP0ND4vPwmU2.
Cheers!
I knew a genius fabricator who created a 4 wheel mountain bike with a roll cage body and I followed him at 50 mph on the first run at Plattekill where we were downhill racers. anyway. his toe-in was about 1 degree and camber was about 7 degrees. His vehicle had a solid rear axle so he could use the inside rear wheel to friction brake in sweeping turns. It was awesome to behold
Sounds like a fun downhill! Thank you for those reference numbers!
Video link
Tadpole cargo trikes make the most sense:
- two tyre contacts in the front
- redundant front brakes
- can use a tilt-lock
- retains the simplicity of a single rear wheel
Love it!
P.S. : there are similar trikes called "HNF Nicolai CD1" and "Mäx & Mäleon"
You could look up what values they used as a reference.
Hello, thank you for that! I agree with the advantages that you mention. I have actually tried a Nicolai once and thought it was incredibly cool and I watched a few videos with the "Mäx & Mäleon" which also looks cool. Cheers!
Also the Butchers and Bicycles
Whatis your opinion of the Dutch Black Iron Horse configuration?
@@tonicedeno, Hello, one small correction - I believe the Black Iron Horse is from Denmark.
And, I tried one with rear steering and I liked it very much! To be hones, I think it's the best I ever tried for slow maneuvering.
The reason why I chose the front tilting to develop is because I like more how it rides. With front tilting, it rides fast better (more like a bike). Cheers!
Bravo! I am not building a cargo bike but loved every minute of your analysis and commentary. Please continue, looking forward to the next revision.
Thank you so much for your inspiring comment!
Same!
Nice project thanks for sharing. Any Camber will "work the spokes" as the wheel rotates, i.e. the load in the spokes will go positive and negative with each rotation of the wheel. Athletic Wheel chairs with camber have problems with spokes loosening.
Hello, thank you for that! Indeed, I was not thinking of negative effects of camber, but now I see that there will be extra strain on the spokes and bearings.
I think I will still live a bit (1-2 deg) but definitely not 6 deg.
Cheers!
I'm not sure if anyone else did but I found this useful to understand what toe, camber and castor means and now I plan on using this information to make better tunes in Forza horizon 5. Had the general idea on camber but visualizing it helps a whole lot more. Thanks.
That's so cool that this is helping you understand the geometry in a computer game! Thanks for sharing that!
@@pedro-neves Hey, now that you know the optimal angle for the wheel alignment, would you consider removing the adjustable part in the center to shed weight and make the assemble more simplified?
@@S-I-R-E absolutely. I'm already working on the new design. Removing the adjustable parts will allow shedding weight and also package the whole suspension and steering a little bit better.
Cheers!
@@pedro-neves sweet!
This has to be one of the best cargo bike builds on YT. Well done Pedro. I have thought about building a3 wheeler so many times, but I have been riding a 2 wheel 8freight for years and for me the benefits of 2 wheels on the infrastructure in the uk outweigh the benefits of 3 wheels. But I would still love to build one like yours.
That is very kind, thank you;) I also love bikes and cargo bikes and see advantages in them. But one thing is fore sure - trikes are more fun to build;) In case you're interested I did a comparison once: czcams.com/video/uW5teIGglsE/video.htmlsi=ozGWutrevJbW14d5.
Cheers!
You are a skilled scientist and inventor. This video is much appreciated for your detail are care for these very relevant topics.
Thank you so much! Makes me happy that you find it useful!
Your creations are getting better and better. This trike is just brilliant. Greetings from Italy
Thank you so much! I do aim to improve every time, so it's very rewarding to read your comment;) Greetings from Amsterdam!
I'm building a tilting trike but with enclosed cabin for weather protection and better aero, this vide is super useful, thanks
You're welcome;) thank you too for your kind comment! And good luck with your build!
I would love to see that. I've had that idea for years but not the skills to do it.
Toe is not typically used on leaning vehicles.
Because they lean, the just don't need it: tilted wheels solve that issue already.
0 toe is fine.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts about Toe! 0 seem the best to me too;)
Toe is related to camber. Positive camber requires toe in, negative camber toe out in order to make the tire track straight.
@@anvilsvs thank you for that!
Toe is important when you have 2 wheels. If you want to travel in a straight line. Uneven roads will cause the bike to pull as will suspension travel and as someone said camber is involved too. How does the bike handle bumps or gutters when one wheel is not on flat road?
@@danc2014 , for me, one of the big advantages of this mechanism is uneven roads. I feel pretty safe. In my opinion, it's safer than a bike.
When we visited Amsterdam, I amazed by the cargo bikes that I saw there and been meaning to fabricate one similar to what I saw there. Yours is a bit more complex for me ahaha but by seeing this build, it gives me motivation to go ahead with my project...
Hello, thanks for sharing! For me, it's really cool to know that I motivated someone to start a build;)
Cheers!
I'm not engineer but having a good feel with technical stuff my opinion is that if camber no toe,it is one or the other,both is too chaotic for a smooth ride and you actually already proove that camber is usefull to add. Congrat for your patience!!and thanks,this was great and really usefull for the community.Ps you gave me some more reasons to make mine!!Thanks again Pedro.
I'm so glad that this inspires you to start your build! Thanks for sharing and for your kind comment!
Congrats on hitting such a milestone! Designing things is always such an interative process that takes patience and dedication. Your hard work and perspective are inspiring!
Thank you so much! I'm really happy that it's great to ride now and still having so many improvements ahead;)
I'm super happy that this serves as inspiration! Thank you for saying that;)
Hi Pedro, well done. Nice piece of work.
As regards Toe, I would suggest 0deg. In cars they sometimes set a toe that allows for the flexure of the rubber bushes so that the end result ubder load is 0deg. 0deg is minimum scrub so maximum tyre life and minimum drag.
As regards castor, you are altering trail (the distance between the steering axis intersection with the road to the tyre intersection) as well. Increasing trail will make the steering a bit heavier, decreasing trail will make it twitchier. It also means that in transferring your results to a larger wheel (if you did that) may alter the optimum.
For the ball joints binding I suggest putting a bend in the arms so that the ball joint is at 90deg to the steering axis to even out the play in the 2 directions so lean-ability is maximum.
Finally, neg camber will wear the tyres on one side. So from time to time swap the tyres left to right and vice-versa to get best life out of them.
Doing away with your castor plates will let you shorten it a bit without affeting your load bed.
Finally, if you had a lean lock, that would be handy when you have to stop for junctions, traffic lights (both feet on the pedals) and parking. It may also help balance on really steep hills. You could delete the side stand too.
Lovely job, I look forward to the next part.
Thank you very much for the kind comment and comprehensive set of guidance!
- Understood regarding Toe and Castor!
- For the ball joints, I plan to do just what you mentioned - design the angle into the knuckle instead of letting the ball joint handle it.
Totally agree with getting rid of the side stand;)
Cheers! Have a good time!
I had a couple of these in mind as well, great comment
Well done, Pedro.
This is fantastic progress.
I look forward to your next instalment.
Thank you very much! It's motivating to do more with such kind comments;)
In the next video, I'll install an electric conversion kit, which will enable me to ride more distances with and without cargo.
After that, there will be big changes. I will organize this into a project where everything has drawings and versions, and it will be easy for anyone who wants to use the drawings.
Cheers!
very helpful technical tests. thank you for sharing your knowledge.
You are welcome! Thank you for your kind comment! I try to share knowledge in the most comprehensive and useful way and will try to keep improving.
The level of talent and knowledge you have...i m humbled
That's very kind, thank you!
The corect turn geometry is the one that when turning, the projections of the two wheel angles alyways cross in the extension of the back axel.
Toe mostly used on cars to enhance break and acceleration performance, and fix changes of geometry on wide wheels.
Usually, for the geometry and handling toe-out is what you want. It may help tweak the lost of handling from caster.
Maybe 6/5 degrees is too much for toe.
Thank you very much for helping to understand Toe a little bit better. I start to comprehend it! I hope it's also useful to others reading your very nice comment.
Very hood analysis. I appreciate your detail and effort. Thank you
Thank you as well for your kind comment!
What an ingenius testing rig !
Congrats for that idea !
Cheers Kai
Thank you very much! Cheers!
wow, great experiment.
I like the scientific approach
Thank you very much!
Great work, Pedro. Thanks for sharing your findings!
Thank yo very much! Ans you are welcome;)
Lovely engineering step by step
Thank you very much!
XLnt testing! i have a few recumbent e-bikes and trikes and lately bought an e-Heisenberg secondhand. it stays, always pleasant to feel the different geometries when you ride one.
The e-Heisenberg looks very cool!
Amazing work! Thanks to the second camera person
Thank you so much! My girlfriend has been helping me with the videos, and it makes her very happy to read such comments;)
Kudos maker I have always marveled after interesting tech
Thank you very much! Me too;)
Amazing project, keep up the great work!!
Thank you very much!
I have never had a trike, no intention to have or build one ever. Enjoyed the video anyway!
Thank you very much! Indeed, making these videos have two sides:
- Inspiring / helping others with building.
- Entertaining.
Cheers!
great job= you must be the world authority on this
Maybe one day;)
Love this research and content - thanks for taking the time and extra effort in making an adjustable config so you can test different options.
I've wondered about a cofiguration where as you are initially turning, the bike is more resistant to the action, as a way to improve stability riding in a straight line.. then as you lean into the turn, you're essentially confirming to the bike that are are actually trying to turn, and the turn gets easier as you commit. Added bonus to this is that it also would prefer to return back to straight riding at the end of the turn
Thank you so much for your kind comment! I love to create and share knowledge.
Let me tell you that I once did an experiment - locked the tilting to see if I liked how it rides. I didn't, either in straight line or in turns. It becomes a totally different vehicle (more like a quad) and I don't like quads... The free tilting mechanism gives the vehicle a sense of riding like a bike, which I like, with the added safety of two wheels in the front.
I know that this is not the same as you proposed but gives a little bit of insight.
Cheers!
very impressive work, thank you!
Thank you so much!
Thanks for sharing. Very interesting project you have there. Hope to see the improvements you come up with in the future.
Thank you very much! I look forward to improving it and share the results;)
Great project, looks like it will be very efficient.
Thank you very much! I think so;)
Awesome information! You're very creative. Kind of hard to do in my two-wheel e-bike but it was very informative and entertaining to watch. Thank you!
Thank you very much! That is very kind;) And I'm glad that you found it informative and entertaining.
Cheers!
Keep up the great work! You are big help and inspiration
Thank you so much for your kindness! I do aim to help and inspire, so your comment is also inspiring to me;)
Thank you for your efforts and posting it.👍
Thank you for your kind comment;)
Ackerman is also called "toe out on turns". It's so, as you say, the wheels turn at a different rate on turns, as of course, the inner wheel has less of a circumference than the outer while turning.
Thank you again for the tips! Indeed, I think I understood the relationships between the geometries. In my next build, I believe I'll get the Ackerman right.
Cheers!
Marvelous to watch! Thanks, I’ve been interested in this approach for years. Will be exciting with a 750W motor (or two)
Thank you very much!
Indeed, more power = more fun;). Though, I'm trying to keep this vehicle inside of brackets for pedal assisted vehicles in Europe so max 250 W constant power;)
Cheers!
This is incredible! Thank you
Thank you!
you are a real scientist !
Thank you;)
Very cool, Pedro. Love it. I think tilting trikes are the way of the future, (until we can just fly everywhere). Your idea of adjustable linkages is inspiring. My mind goes to variable linkages, using linear actuators, or cable levers, so that all could be adjusted on the fly. Cargo, no cargo. Hi speed, low speed etc.
Thank you very much! Well, the next one will have cable steering;) maybe not exactly what you are thinking of but still an interesting feature, I think;)
Cheers!
Finally you posted happy new year friend !
Thank you so much! Happy New Year!
An excellent build.
Thank you very much!
Bro you got a new sub. This was pure excellence.
Thank you so much! That is very kind!
¡¡Hola, Pedro!! Following your progress has been fantastic! Thank you for taking so much time/effort to distill and present it here for all interested to learn from and enjoy. Your video production improves and improves, and that takes much effort and talent!
You are certainly inspiring me and sparking/filling my noggin with new ideas. Love it!!
It seems that a close to neutral toe is optimal for your design. More toe-in, or toe-out, would cause increased tire friction/scrubbing and wear, and add to your pedaling efforts. No es bueno. Since our human body is relatively meager in terms of power output, we are pretty sensitive to additional load increases or decreases. I do like how you gave several of the configuration ~2 days of trial. Riding different bikes/configurations may preemptively feel "wrong", but our body/brain adapts quickly and then we, as you were, are able to make better comparisons.
Also, if you had simply made a trike, with no suspension, bleccchhhhh! Vehicles like that become "dynamically dead" and it becomes far removed from the fun experience of a bicycle. Your front suspension definitely IMPROVES upon that!!! Now you have a beautifully unique tri-wheeled bicycle.
As for tools, have you improved and/or gathered new ones? Got a small (they can definitely fit your needs) TIG machine? It would be nice to see some 4130 chromoly tubing in the front, lighter AND stronger for a future iteration. Then you could refit that on a future, lighter rear end. A rear end that will maybe have a 7-speed gear cluster that would always be there and NEVER need an electrical outlet.
Oh, and straight handlebars are okay for aesthetics, but suck-suck for ergonomics. Hold your hands out forward, loosely, in front of you, grabbing an imaginary handlebar, and your hands grip at a natural ~12-15deg bend. In the future, consider that. Your elbows and shoulders will thank you! LOL
And, THANKS as well for speaking to us in completely intelligible English! You communicate excellently! Because of that your video is completely accessible to me. Lucky me.
You made me smile when you spoke of how you felt after all you have done to achieve your ride/design to this point. What you have done, in terms of creativity, is NO DIFFERENT than a fine artist who applies oils to a canvas. To think otherwise is simple arrogance or ignorance. Maybe big dashes of both! I REALLY like your creativity because its product is functional. It interacts with your entirety as you interact with it. AND, of course, in its essence, it is a bicycle. A beautiful bicycle.
Lastly, tip 'o the hat, and two thumbs up, to your camera dude/chic!!! Your video was greatly improved by their assistance. Please, pass my "THANK YOU!" to them as well.
I am only more excited for that day in the future when you share with us again...
PS Straighten out the nose of your saddle. I'm picky that way. LOL
Uauu, I wish I could put more than just one heart in this incredibly kind comment;) Thank you so much!
I aim to improve the video production every time. I always have some notes of things to do a little bit better. I aim to share knowledge and inspire others to build. Hopefully, adding something of positive.
It is very inspiring to me to read from you that you are inspired;)
I definitely agree that the body adapts. One interesting thing that I noted is: after you change, it feels worse, then after some time, it does not feel worse. Then you change it back to what it was, and it feels so much better! That's how you're sure that it was worse;)
This is much more fun to ride than a fixed trike for sure!;)
For my next project that needs some welding, I will definitely get a TIG machine. Not just because the welding process is cleaner and quieter but also I cannot express how much I have been grinding to clean the welds!... Oh...
Regarding electric power and gearbox - Well, soon I will start a project of developing an electric mid-drive unit with gearbox. I think this is the future. I'm inspired by the work of Pinion. I will use a bike for developing the mid-drive and in the meantime I will install wheel motor in the cargo trike to help me with carrying cargo around;)
As for the handlebars, hehe, well, I have to say that I had different handlebars in this vehicle already. I think that the MTB lover in me ends up trying to make a cargo vehicle like an MTB... If I'm really honest, I have to admit that I aim to make this cargo trike so good that I will ride it on an MTB track and jump with it. Then I'll know it's good;)
I'm glad that my spoken English is well understandable. That's important for sharing knowledge so thank you for mentioning it! I'm from Portugal so, as soon as CZcams releases to me the feature of allowing multiple audio languages, I will also dub the films in Portuguese.
Aah, your comment on creativity is so kind... Kindness improves the world.
The camera chic has just read your comment and has a warm heart as well;) It has been a big contribution from her, improving how to film and doing it in the cold and rain. We love doing it but a comment like yours just makes us love it more. So THANK YOU to you too!
I am one of those that has so many project in a queue!... So will definitely make more and share. Many things to improve in the trike (I'm working on wheel hubs in the present), electric mid-drive with gearbox and a whole series about EV charging where I have professional expertise (I will teach how to make a super simple charging station, etc...)
Hehe, that saddle is in bad shape actually;)
Cheers! Have a great time!
I am really appreciated this video and many comments that so good in the engineering designs. Keep do more videos please. This topics are so interesting Mê.
Thank you so much! And I agree with you - there are great comments helping improve the design and build!
I am continuing and also improving how I share - I'm working on the next build with the designs open source which I will share in editable format.
Cheers!
Wow, what an extraordinary project. I ride an ICE recumbent e-trike. Me and the trike are a little lighter than your setup, and there are a lot more spokes on the front wheels. But even then I'll break one every so often. So I would agree with you, more spokes! I run drum brakes up front, so no hydraulic maintenance, and I really like the progressive feel. Perfect for tadpoles. Anyway, good luck with what you are doing, you are obviously a brilliant young man.
Thank you so much for your kind comment!
I'm working on stronger wheels with 28 spokes (and different hubs).
I'm also working on making it lighter (next frame will be made of aluminum).
I love that there is a community of tadpole lovers!
Cheers!
Hi Pedro, thank you for your job, well done, i learn a lot . have a god day.
I'm happy to read that you liked it! Thank you for your kind comment;) Have a great day!
I like it! Look forward to your future videos.
Thank you!
I love this kind of science!
Experimenting is a scientific method;) Thank you!
Amazing work! 👏🏻
Thank you!
Very nice Pedro. You might want to consider the 1 degree toe-in when you add brakes to the equation. Braking force will force the wheels back and create a somewhat unstable situation due to toe-out. I've tested this on my first prototype (way to heavy in the end) and found braking and steering at the same time to be more stable. This wasn't a tilting trike though, but a rigid one with 8 inch front wheels and drum brakes all around
Looking forward to the improvements!
Pjotr (Tesla Tilburg)
Pjotr! Uauu! I hope you are doing well;) And thank you for the comprehensive comment about Toe. I start to understand that it's important for braking and accelerating (things that I barely have at this point;)) Cheers! All the best happiness to you!
I see you work hard and play harder... keep up the good work!
Thank you! Indeed, I like this kind of project where one can keep improving.
Cheers!
Wow
🤩
Very cool.
Great Job.
Thank you very much!!
Congratulations , nice work.......good job !!!
Thank you very much!
Cool project, great presentation, good job on the english too.
Love the flash logo on the front.
Thank you very much! That's very kind;)
Beautiful ! Suddenly I know more about the geometriproblems. Thank you and good luck with the electric conversion, 10 kilos of extra muscles will make this a vehicle for the future city traveller. Perhaps a tentlike cabin for kids as the next project. I had theese thoughts myself 40 years ago, right idea wrong timing in my case.
Thank you for the kind comment;) And I'm glad that this helped you understand the geometry. This was the main intention with this video!
Indeed, it needs to be electric. I've been working on a conversion and testing, and I'm almost ready to publish the video about that.
And I agree with the tent! I look forward to it being good enough to carry people.
Cheers!
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!! You are so valuable!!!
Just to contribute... the toe angle is something that has sense just when the weight of the wheel/suspension system is relevant and/or the power of the engine is relevant compared to the hardness of the materials. In a tricycle or four wheel bicycle you can hold it neutral. But thank you for all your contents
That's incredibly kind;) Thank you too;)
@@Ale_775, and thank you so much for the contribution. It's been a learning process, and it's great when we can make a forum out of it and share each other's knowledge! Nice notes on Toe, thank you.
Thanks to you Pedro, You really did an excelent and useful job! I was speaking with an Audi mechanic the other day and he told me that for a car of roughly 200CV the driving rear wheels have an open toe angle in a way that if you measure the distance between them in the front it can be up to 10/12mm more than in the back if I understood...
epic detailed video!
Thank you!
Great stuff!!
Thank you!
Hello! Engineer here :) Nice to see that this idea keep moving these days. I have done a lot of leaning trikes with motor. Let me share some insights?
First one - consider a Roll center. Surprisingly, but CG for Leaning trikes must be at groung level instead of over it like a car design. Thats why you struggling with balance while ride without hands. The second - Ackerman angle: Try to decrease amount of it because : A. slip angle of tyre, B. tyre works on a sidewall while leaning and you get camberthrust.
And last one. Due to long base your front (air) spring too stiff so it would be harsh with strait (especially at high speed)..
(and.. front wheel pressure. IDK but there might be 30-50% lower than ordinary bike)
Hello, thank you so much for sharing your insights! They help me to improve!
- I definitely intend to lower center of gravity.
- Ackerman took a lot of work. I started with the "designed" geometry and then did adjustments until I feel that there's no rub. There are a few things to fix for sure. I'll consider camberthrust, thank you for that!
- Ya, I agree that spring air pressure and tire air pressure contribute to stability. As it is, when I load it with 45 kg, the shock contracts about 1/3 of its range.
Cheers!
@@pedro-neves Good luck!
@@audaxrallymedia , thank you very much!
how can CG be at ground level? do you mean below wheel center?
@@federicoromero6130 Oh! Thank you! Youre right. I mean RC. Roll Center. Of course CG located way up from the ground. But Roll Center must be located at the floor, and imitate front wheel of regular 2 wheeled bike. In other cases 3 wheeled leaning trike hard to drive. Rider feels instability. It looks like front wheel start to slide from side to side.
Excelent work!
Thank you!
Muito bom. Gostei e aguardo as melhorias na cargo bike.
Obrigado! E até breve;)
Lovely series of your build! great to see your progress and great finding/bike you have made!
Fun part that I found you when I was searching for geometry for my exact same project! Have quite some difference design approach but thanks a lot for the caster input didnt want to go for that huge range of options to try the best.. at least now I know what ballpark i should aim for! :D
Will have mine on the wheel in a week or two see how it rides!
Uauu! Super cool to read about your project! And makes me so happy that my video was helpful to you! If you ever make a video about your trike and post it somewhere, you are most welcome to share a link here. I would love to see it;) And thank you for the kind words;) Cheers!
@@pedro-neves Will make some sort of internet documentation when I get it on the wheels, so will share it here! :D
@@Antiairdevil2, looking forward to it!
This was a fun exploration of the math behind steering geometry. You might further refine results with rake & trail adjustment to bias tandem tires load vs single steer on the front axle, maybe even with torque bias observations for left vs right steering effort with your current weight distributions. Thanks for sharing.
Thank you very much! Indeed these tests gave some insight into the ballpark of geometries but there is so much to find out. The next design will already have plenty of improvements. In the future, I'm considering to build a computer model for simulation.
Cheers!
Great stuff
Thank you!
Just stumbled across this video, what a great project. I live in CPH and have tried many different 3 wheel cargo bikes, currently with the Butchers and Bicycles trike for family duties. I have to say the tilting trike is a the best solution that I have tried, on the Butchers the main drawbacks are related to the room the wishbones are taking up from the passenger/Cargo box, and the fact that the ‘cargo’ weight is also positioned directly over the wheel axle, if I put an adult in the box hard braking and that weight shift makes the bike pretty unstable, your solution is definitely getting around that. Also, from experience it can be pretty disconcerting to run out of ‘lean’ when committed to a corner.
Hello, thank you very much!
I also like the tilting solution. For me, it's the type of trike that gives the best riding experience.
Interesting that you're saying that you experienced running out of l lean when riding. I thought this was a problem just with my design. I know how I will improve it, but not eliminate the issue totally because of the limits of the ball joints.
Thank you for those descriptions of riding your trike! Really helps to consider pros and cons of design.
Cheers!
great engineering
Thank you!
Very nice...much potential...looks pleasing to operate, ride....lookin forward to electrics or combustion....
Thank you! Indeed, I already made an electric conversion. You are welcome to check it out here: czcams.com/video/9515pv9slyM/video.htmlsi=dzjplPb94CF0m3Rw.
Cheers!
Good job!
Thank you!
Hi Pedro,
You are an inspiration to all! Hats off to you for your build!
I would love to see if 5 degree caster is any better with negative camber you have set. I know your bolt locations do not allow this, but since you are going to alter the build, maybe you can try this on the old build before committing to the new design. I would bet that you would enjoy the additional manoeuvrability without sacrificing much stability.
As you described you can add electric motors. I don't know if your ultimate purpose is more geared towards heavier cargo or not, but it seems like you would be ok with a pedal assist system given your location is mostly flat. You could try front wheel drive, (would be a quite a bit more complex as you need to control the speed based on many parameters, steering angle, tilt etc.) or even all wheel drive (but it seems like you wouldn't need this). If you are making the new one from scratch, you can also try to use a more optimized design for the rider frame. Most of the frame geometry is overengineered for the loads you have it seems, you can potentially cut back on weight there a little bit.
If you design the entire linkage including ball joint with camber and caster settings you have in mind you will enjoy a better ride and longevity.
I would advise against toe due to fact that your vehicle is tilting and thus no need for "correcting" steering dynamics due to weight and contact patch distribution is needed. With toe you will get added wear on tyres (negligible if you don't use very soft tyres) and most importantly additional effort is required to energy dissipated as heat with geometry causing shearing on contact patch. In terms of handling feel theory suggests that toe out will make it more "twitchy", in non-tilting vehicles a little toe-in goes a long way for responsiveness but has some costs for high-speed stability. In your case the effect at such small angles is negligible as you have tilting. If you drive front wheels with motors, then you might want to consider toe-in for added traction, but again using ESC to control torque would be the better option.
I appreciate the knowledge you have shared and hope to make use of this for myself in the future.
Thank you so much for your kind comment and contributions to knowledge sharing!
Indeed, I am left with the question of exactly how much caster;) I only know that 10 is better than 0 and better than 20.
I already have an electric kit with motor in the rear wheel to install. This has the advantage of being a very simple installation, and I can continue the development and tests and ride more distance without becoming so tired. At the same time, I am starting the project of developing an electric mid-drive with gearbox. I'm also excited about this project;)
I will redesign for fixed linkages and for the correct angles between knuckles and ball joints.
I have learned a lot about Toe since I published this video;) it’s incredibly cool how much knowledge people are happy to give. Thank you.
I also appreciate the knowledge that you shared and makes me happy that you find use in the knowledge that I shared.
Cheers!
Valeu!
Nice job!
Obrigado!
This is the info i need
That is great! Makes me happy to know that it's useful!
This is so fascinating! Thanks for all the testing!
Now if I could only learn to weld properly (all my experiments trying to weld up my own cargo bike have been disasters so far! )😊
Thank you for your very kind comment!
And some words of encouraging: I'm also not a good welder. I believe you get there by practicing. I'm also looking forward to doing better, and I'll transition to TIG welding soon.
Makes me happy to read that you are working on a cargo bike build;) If you ever need something, you are welcome to reach out;)
@@pedro-neves Thanks! Greatly appreciated!
Amazing project, you getting in the wright direction, and yes this will be a dream with a electric assisted power, though you ever thought about a chainless but a dohc drive to make it a ideal bike
Thank you very much! I already installed assisted power. You're welcome to see in this video: czcams.com/video/9515pv9slyM/video.htmlsi=-XVDMtRxLR1wAkMe. And I already have ideas for the future.
Cheers!
Parabens Pedro.
Gostei de ver.
Muito obrigado!
The steering geometry is difficult. The outer steering knuckles need to be inside the wheel, difficult on spoked wheels. Each front wheel should prescribe a circular path with the their axle lines crossing on the axle line of the rear wheel. The inside wheel makes a smaller radius circular path than the outer wheel and the rear wheel even smaller radius.
Hello, thank you! I believe I mitigated the fact of the knuckle being outside by designing for an angle of 0 scrub radius. Cheers!
Write Ackerman. Done.
I loved this video sooo much 😅 I could add some of my advice on geometry of the front end but it looks like others comments have covered this, loved your real world testing, am building my own one of these 3 wheeled tilt bikes but with a motorbike engine, swing arm, back wheel and shock at the back, but where mine with differ is that I am building a aluminium tub for sit down position like in an open wheel racecar like F1.😅 Really glad to see this and would like to see your improvements. After you put a motor on it you could actually also have a low seating position right on top of your cargo area lol, cause the lower to the ground you are increases the sensation of speed and lowers the centre of gravity, and you could make it reversible so you could change between riding/driving positions when ever you like 😅😅 really good work
Thank you so much for your kind comment! Indeed I've been getting so much help to improve my design and build! I think that the next one will be much better;)
Regarding the motor and riding position - I'm constrained because I want to have pedals. I'm designing for a class of vehicle that can ride in Europe without license plate (or insurance) - can have motor but only for assisting the pedals, cannot work on it's own.
Regarding your design - sounds awesome! I would just love to see it! If you publish your design somewhere, please drop a link;)
Cheers!
You have chosen far to great differences.
Even 1 degree is a great difference!
You could have a look what cars use.
Indeed, I agree. The reason why I compared big differences was to amplify the effect of the change so that I feel what it does. And also to find out the ballpark of where it should be.
Cheers!
You knocked it out of the park with the adjustable geometry ! Just slap a hub motor on the back 😉 . Also bigger wheels might be more forgiving.
Thank you very much! And I already added a motor;) Check it out here if you're interested: czcams.com/video/9515pv9slyM/video.htmlsi=hKyIqX8F9g3twxFA.
Cheers!
Brilliant!
Thank you!
😊прекрасная разработка.
Thank you!
Ackerman's principle is measured with the steering wheel straight head, not at lock.
That's how the geometry of different steering wheel radiius are followed.
If you draw a triangle between both front steering axis (at hub level?) and the centre of the rear axle line, that's the line your steering knuckles should be.
It kinda looks like your front wheels are a little parralel. At full lock, they should look like they point in a visiblely different direction.
Hi, thanks for that. Indeed, I did not calculate the Ackerman correctly. But, then with small adjustments, I reached there. The outer wheel turns less than the inner wheel and I have no scrubbing. Cheers!
Excellent
Thank you;)
The Ackerman principle is at any point of turning, the axis of all three wheel will meet at one point… set it in a way at full turn , the axis of both front wheels will both meet, along the axis of the rear wheel… check with the kenimatics of motion…
Thank you! Indeed, with this geometry, the Ackerman principle is achieved in most of the range of the turn but not in all. I believe the next build will have all the Ackerman principle corrected.
Cheers!
Riding ‘no hands’ is how I confirm proper geometry.
I am not happy with a bike until I can control it coasting by weight shifting alone.
I never built a tilting trike but it is in my project list, and your work is going to make it easier. Thanks a lot.
I love that you find my work useful! Thank you so much for writing;)
Cheers!
wow fantastic.
Thank you!
Great thought. 1 down side though. When you load the cargo it will be harder for you to turn the vehicle. Because of the weight of it.
Hello, thank you! Indeed, the cargo helps to create momentum forward, so the vehicle is slower to turn.
Good job ❤😅
Thank you!
Another piece of the geometry you can change to achieve Ackerman is the tie rod connection point on the steering knuckles. Move the tie rod connection points inboard. This will turn the inboard wheel more relative to the outboard wheel. You mentioned moving the steering arm forward. I interpreted your statement as moving the whole assembly forward. You could just rotate the arm around so the connection point is forward of the pivot point. But this would require crossing the arm from the handle bars. I’m familiar with setting this up in four wheel vehicles. Requires some shifting in thinking to do it on a bike. For what my opinion is worth, I also don’t like the idea of camber on bicycle wheels. They don’t deal with side loads very well. I’d try to keep the wheel aligned with the resultant load. But you probably know that already.
Thank you so much for that!
Indeed, it's been a big debate about what moves where in the steering. I'm now designing a new vehicle and haven't decided because some decisions get in the way of others, of course. But I understand what you are saying.
Regarding camber, also after some comments such as yours, I'm now almost sure that it will not have any camber.
I appreciate very much the constructive suggestions.
Cheers!
Gracias por el excelente aporte
Gracias tambien!
A beautiful job of solving a problem which does not exist on a bicycle. At considerable cost in both money and weight.
Hehe, thank you for the beautiful part;)
Indeed this is more complicated and expensive than a bike. And I love bikes.
This is an alternative. I think it can be made to be safer than a bike and more proper to carry cargo than a bike. I also think that, by making it open source (will start in the next project series), it can be made to be cheaper than commercial cargo bikes. Also, this may help pave the way for knowing how to make a small car (L7 category).
Cheers!
Outstanding efforts! I tried commenting earlier but didn't see it show up, so I sent an email to the account linked in the channel info asking if you might consider using something like Cannondale Lefty hubs for your next front wheelset and knuckle design. It could save you the fabrication time and plot a course to a design which could eventually be implemented by more people.
Hello! And thank you very much! The hub is a very good point. I am designing a new hub that is of the same style as the Lefty. A Few minor differences such as 28 spokes and a left thread for the left spindle bolt so that the wheel doesn't untorque the bolt when riding. I'll answer to your email and share a few pictures. Cheers!
The only downside I could think of negative camber would be that the wheel bearings would have more stress and wear faster. It's the first time I see a cargo trike like this, I live in Canada and never seen anything like this.
Great point on camber, thanks! I didn't think about that.
If you live in a place that is very cold, you may want to consider a trike because, in my opinion, it is safer than a bike in slippery conditions.
Cheers!
So nice
Thank you!
I love the video. -- The detailed approach to all the variables and riding conditions is very impressive. On toe-in, it seems like if 5deg was too much and 1deg was hard to notice, then trying 2 and working up to some limit >=5deg would be worth testing.
Finally, viewing in the U.S. 2024-05-11, I got a pretty offensive ad demonizing immigrants.
Thank you very much! With so many contributions to Toe in comments in this video, I end up concluding that one should aim to have 0 deg Toe. The reason why steering geometries are calculated to have Toe is actually to compensate for deformations or other geometries. So, the objective is always to have 0 deg Toe.
Cheers!
너무 아름답네요! 멋진 자전거 부럽다!!!
Thank you so much!