Replacing a Commodore 64 SID Chip with a Raspberry Pi Pico. The SIDKick Pico is here!
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- čas přidán 28. 05. 2024
- The Commodore C64 SID chip is a much loved and iconic sounding device, but one day they will all be faulty. There have been replacements made using modern components for some time, but now there's a new SID on the block with very few compromises, lots of features, and a price tag that won't set fire to your wallet.
The SIDKick Pico pushes all my buttons, being simple, excellent value, and yet very powerful and feature filled.
You can find the GitHub here:
github.com/frntc/SIDKick-pico
With special thanks to @banjoguyollie/ @8bitmanshed For the original amazing thumbnail
and @RetroBites@retrobitstv for borrowed footage
and @adriansdigitalbasement for his amazing dance party appearance.
Mark from @TheRetroChannel for being Mark :D
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00:00 Intro
02:25 C64 SID Chips
03:40 SIDKick Pico
07:28 Building the SIDKick Pico
08:10 MG Chemicals Flux
10:17 Topnic Flux
14:00 Installing the pins
16:24 Installing the Pico Firmware
17:23 Testing the SIDKick Pico
19:23 8-bit Dance Party - Věda a technologie
You've got to love repairing an old computer with an even more powerful computer emulating a single old chip. It is however the thing that makes non-enthusiast think we're crazy.
Totally!
Huge fan of ARMSID here but as you probably know, I'm totally with you in that a big part of this hobby is keeping costs to a minimum. I'm all over this.
Same. Cannot fault ARMSID for what it is. And even the price is reasonable if you consider what it costs for a real one that might go bang in a week. But this SIDKick Pico is just mind blowingly cheap and the quality is perfect (to my tin ears). I do love a pico!
I stopped building SwinSIDs because despite the appeal of their cheapness, they cause more problems than they fix (joystick goes haywire on many games rendering them unplayable). I wonder if the transfer game in Paradroid works? This uses the random number generator and was broken with ARMSID initially (I asked Nobomi to fix it and he did!)
Great video in general, love the bit at the end, very Monty Python. I have to go order the parts for some of these [Mark Fixes Stuff voice] right now....
@@dantootill if I remember I'll give that game a try a bit later and report back
+1 for the Pythonesque Angry Adrian!!!!
LOL, ending is worth the wait. I'm ordering a gaggle of these boards :)
Hey Merlin! Glad you liked the ending. :D
Nice to see you here! Hope everything is going well for you :)
Sadly i can't get any c64 spares here so I am glad that there's people fixing them for future generations and also thinking in budget friendly repairs
It will get better and better and hopefully cheaper too!
Using the breadboard to hold the pins secure for soldering has blown my mind a little bit
Not just secure... But also aligned!
Brilliant video. So glad you are able to make this sort of content again. It really is a joy.
Thank you Ross. I really enjoyed making this one too. Vet important I have something away from home life to swallow me to switch my brain off
TOP JOB! For what it is worth, I normally follow these steps when doing SMD drag-soldering: (1) apply liquid flux to the empty pads, without the chip; (2) give the flux a few seconds to begin drying and become sticky; (3) put the chip on the pads and align the pins (the sticky flux will give it just enough stability, and also ensure a good solder joint under the pin, on the surfaces that actually touch the pads); (4) tack the corner pins, still without flux paste; (5) Only now apply flux paste; (6) drag-solder the whole thing, including reflowing the joints of the tacked pins. This works fine every time.
Ah! A combination of both types. That does sound good!
Great video, Lee. Awesome thumbnail and fun editing. Very fun to watch
Thank you Gunnar!
Really love these uses for the Rpi! Recently used on as a modchip for the Gamecube. They're versatile, very easy to program, and they can easily be repurposed.
Its Custardo! :D I especially love the Pico because its so crazy cheap and versatile. What a great little device! I think people will be nostalgic about them one day. I might buy a few hundred for my time capsule 😂
That cylinder player is so cool! I love seeing all the detail and care that goes into that simple sequence!
It's awesome that such replacements exist for the C64. I wish the NES community was as afraid to do the same thing, their concern is that others would take their hard work and sell it as their own. And the face that lots of clone NES CPU and PPU already exsist, but like the SID and the original NES CPU and PPU these go up to $40-$50. An inaccurate clone goes for like $4-$16.
Though I think the SID is more prone to break than the NES CPU or PPU.
Like you said, the NES isn't as prone to failure so there's not a big demand for replacement custom chips. I think eventually they'll have to be developed though. All these devices will eventually expire
The chips on the short boards (SID 8580 and 8500 CPU) are way more stable than the chips used in the old breadbin
Maybe one day we'll be able to use a NES modified to SID audio! That would be awesome!
Excellent video, and I love the kit! Great SMD soldering, too! Thanks for sharing
Cheers Rudy! 😁
Yet another fab video Lee, your archive is coming along nice, I always have a look at your videos if I'm going to do anything with my 8bit collection, thank you so much and keep them coming 👍
Thank you Richard! It's nice to have a bit of a back catalogue. Nice for me to look back too 😁
Great view of soldering SMD. I don't think I've seen any other channels show it that cleanly. Thanks!
This was fascinating! Really enjoyed this thank you.
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it 😁
Heh, grumpy Adrian.
The real Adrian we don't usually see 😆
I love your videos and lowcost replacements for the sid. Great stuff.🎉
With "No Clean Sticky Flux" I dip a fine Tooth Pick into the tube
and then Dab the PCB track where the component goes, I also
place a dab on the components mating surface/s, I then place
the component down & solder, when I use the Hot Air Station
I do much the same by Dabbing flux on the PCB and Chip/s
and I then pre-tin them, a little more flux then goes on the PCB,
followed by the chip "be it DIL or BGA" which is then placed
into position/s, and then using a Hot Air gun on high Temp with
a low air, flow marry the component/s to the PCB.. And yes
several components can be all heated onto the PCB in one go,
but that took me a lot of practicing, so maybe two at a time
max until you are comfortable doing more at a time..
Great thumbnail and great ending. I was let down hoping you'd break into a cabbage patch dance.😂 Maybe next time. Neat sid solution. Thanks!
You really dont want to see my cabbage patch dance!
@@MoreFunMakingIt I'm good for a tenner on kofi for such! 😄
That's the meanest-looking photo I've ever seen of Adrian. Anyway, that seems like a nice SID replacement.
I wouldn't like to suggest that this is the real Adrian ;) Its a great picture though, and he really is the most lovely person on the internet!
Had just decided to make this my next soldering project. Thank you for walk through!
Good luck! :D
Very Monty Python at the end!!
Thank you! That's what I was aiming for 😁
I said the same, Terry Gilliam would approve.
Amazing video!!! Will go for it, definitely !!! Thanks for sharing 😃
My pleasure 😊
I've been waiting for a pico sid. Good to see it materialized. I wouldn't mind seeing a version of the board with RP2040 directly on it, just to make it that much more slick.
Thanks Lee!
I love these bits and pieces!
Can’t wait to make time to Frankenstein my perfectly original C64
I know this wasn't entirely your intention with this video, but I just ordered up a bunch of the A8 Pico Cart boards. I didn't know they existed and I bought an 800XL late last year. New toy to play with.
Thanks for mentioning it!
You're welcome! 😁
Yeah, same. The pico sid was already on my radar and I had the gerbers added to my pcb cart (I tend to save up a few projects and order all at once to save on shipping), but the A8 cart wasn't. It's unclear to me why it's XL/XE only though, not sure why it wouldn't work for a standard 800. I do have an XL, but I much prefer to use the original 800 (better keyboard and I haven't modded my XL for svideo yet). Guess I'll give it a shot when I order and build and see how that goes... or if I smoke something. haha.
Loads of potential in the A8PicoCart!
8 bit dance party at the proper speed ! :)
Shhh! Dont tell the Americans! ;)
I just learning something cool here ;)
Thank you for the tip !
Excellent! Happy to help 😄
@@MoreFunMakingIt I just get 5 assembled board on pcbway :) .... soon i can play with !
I don't frikkin' believe it. It works!
I don't have any non-emulated 64's, but I still want to build one of these.
I totally get that!
Love this - I may be in need of one as my SID is playing up. Sounds great!
I cant see any downside to this one at all. You wont regret it :D
I use both gel flux (Kingbo RMA-218) and the Topnik liquid, and It really just depends what I'm doing as to which I use. I also prefer a K tip for drag soldering, they make it a little easier to do.
I think if I had a quick tip change iron I would change to tips more suited to each job, but as it is I tend to just stick with the one that is ok for most things. So lazy! 🤣
@@MoreFunMakingIt I was the same, and then got to the point of using pliers to change hot iron tips! I still haven't got a quick change iron, but my TS-101 is a good starting point.
@@MoreFunMakingIt You find that the K tip can be used pretty much everywhere youd use a bevel or chisel tip. I usually dont bother changing the tip on my iron from the K tip any more
I had to watch just to get the thumbnail out of my head :D Top stuff as ever sir.
You'll lay awake tonight, and all you'll be able to see are those shorts 😆
the "Topnik" liquid flux you are referring to is very commonly used by the Polish tinkerers (myself included :)) It is Polish-made, just a rosin diluted in alcohol, nothing fancy but does it job wonderfully :)
Someone once told me that Topnik is Polish for flux?
@@MoreFunMakingIt exactly!
@@MoreFunMakingIt yup. and you can also buy gel version (topnik żel) from the same manufacturer (AG TermoPasty).
Brilliant as usual mate 👍🕹
Thanks 👍
Welcome back! We missed you and we're glad to be approaching normality whatever that is. Lovely video.
I do love a Hitch Hikers Guide quote 😍
awesome project
I meant to say all parts and PCBs are already on their way!!! Most excited i have been since I dont know when, dont tell the missus! BUT where does one get Mr Adrian's Dance Party?? ❤
I found it through the magic of Google. I would link here but I'm not sure if that would work. If I remember I'll put the link in the description.
😁
I made ZX Spectrum 48/128/512 + AY8910 + DivIDE on single Pi Pico
Cool!
"But I like the SID..." 🍪🐿
now to the comparison between a real and a SideKick one!
I hope someone creates a modified PCB where just the RP2040 chip can be placed instead of an entire Pi Pico breakout board, so you need only one PCB and can make the overall dimensions the same as a regular SID.
100% agree. I think that might be something that gets made soon actually. Would be harder for most to solder together, but a nice thing for someone to sell maybe.
@@MoreFunMakingIt LCSC stocks the RP2040, and JLCPCB, Aisler and probably other pcb fabs can source components from there and solder them on for you when you order PCBs from them. It is a great way for people with a limited soldering setup to make really advanced PCBs. Even 4-layer has become cheap to do now. Kits could be sold with either nothing soldered, just the SMD stuff soldered, or more.. If there's not enough room, one could use a tiny FPC or similar header and an external USB programming PCB that can be detached so you don't need to put all the USB stuff on the "SID" device itself. Just throwing some thoughts out there. Maybe not everything is very well thought through, but well well... Great to see more SID alternatives anyway. I have 7 Commodore 64's and none of them had fully working original SIDs when I got them.
There are postage stamp size RP2040 boards available, albeit with reduced I/O pin count.
It's surprisingly easy to convert a cheap toaster into a simple reflow oven!
That would be great, it could even be overmolded in epoxy to look like an original
Enjoyed the video Lee, its a good cheap replacment
Cheers Iain!
Interesting options to replace a sid chip cheers.
Great video. I friggin' love these Pico boards. Is there anything they can't do?!
Great video, informative with a decent helping of humour, a winning formula. I always preferred the Bacon Monster Munch myself, was glad when they brought them back.
Younger me like the pickled onion, but vintage me prefers flamin hot. Not that I'm allowed crisps any more 😆
Very nice video - thank you very much! May I ask what kind of equipment you are using for that makro-recordings?
Thank you. It's an Andonstar microscope.
I love the SID sound -- I really do -- but it would be cool if this approach could be modified to allow for custom sounds in some way or another, eg: replace the waveforms with wavetables or replace the filter with a 24dB ladder type, etc. etc.
thats all software so it would be doable. It'd be interesting if it could implement the filter distortion profiles from sidplay2
Buen trabajo!!, saludos.
I wonder if adding some conditioning to the power supply would extend the life of those precious SIDs, and others
It's a good thought. It would be nice to keep the originals alive
Pretty cool. What Id be pretty curious about is access to higher cpu power and ram but still running through the C64 system and seeing what people could come up with given some of the tech demos ane homebrew games over the last few years
A C64 BreadStorm!
@MoreFunMakingIt apparently the MCL64 is such a thing using a teensy4.1, though they're kinda expensive but I don't see why the same concept can't be done on a pi Pico or esp32
Haha, ending was perfect! :D
Ordered 5 manufactured and assembled from PCBWAY, was under $50 and show they’ll ship Monday. That’s 7 days from order to built, assembled and shipped for $10 a board.
Sold.
Awesome
Welcome back!
... I wonder how well one of these would work hacked into a Plus 4? 🤔
Thanks!
Interesting idea!
1943 dance party!!!
Awesome! what temp do you like to use for SMD work?
Thank you! 350C on stuff like this. Very much depends on how much heat the board needs. If it's a heavier board with lots of ground plane it will need more heat
I hit the like button after "post 1960s measurements".
"Oi, stop it!" - the typical Canadian/US accent 😂❤
🤣
@@MoreFunMakingItBTW... Something tells me that the title-menu music on Ghouls'n'Ghosts (not to be confused with Ghosts'n'Goblins) could have the potential of either exposing a SID in the process of kicking some internal buckets or the quality of a potential SID-replacement.
- There is a mile of filtering going on there, that's for sure. Just that woman screaming in the far background or the raindrops in the beginning... clearly not simply digitized... utterly mind-boggling what those SIDs are capable of.... "Shine on you crazy diamonds".
Awesome video, but man, my shakey old hands couldn't do surface mount!
It's not too bad if you brace your hand. And you can always reflow with hot air 😁
Replacement for a C64 sound chip with a computer with the power of emulating 10 c64s at the same time...Seen similar mods for the Amiga where the 68k processor was replaced with a pico pi...
It does make you scratch your head! 😆
@@MoreFunMakingIt Well makes sense nevertheless if the chip is failing!
This "high tech" modern projects usually cost a lot more than the old hardware. I bought a c64 for 5 euros last year but a diagnostic card for the spectrum can cost 50 euros
Pickled onion 'Space Raiders' were better than 'Monster Munch'. Plus they only cost 10 pence per packet.
That's a very good call. Space Raiders would turn your face inside out!
It needs to generate random numbers as well as some games won't work properly if that doesn't work.
Love it! 😂
What do you need a roof for, when an Amiga 2000's mainboard is big enough?
My roof is a couple of Amstrad CPC 464's 😆
Hmm, wouldn't a hot plate be A LOT easier than this?
I use the TOPNIK flux, no Clean, it alcohol based, why it rapidly dries out, but yeah you get used to it!
didn't the sid also been in charge of managing the analog paddle?
It is. And fully supported in this version too.
Oh god it reminds the day i worked for sony back in the day! 😢
Just one day? 😆
God I miss my Vic 20, CBM 64 and Amiga.
I suppose I'm saying I miss being young.
That's why nostalgia and retro will never die! 😁
@@MoreFunMakingIt Isn't that the truth.
If the last time you used it was 30 years ago and it doesn't work now, it's most likely a faulty electrolytic capacitor. Were C64 chips really that bad?
Yes they were! Some of them you can justifiably replace before they go faulty because they are so unreliable.
You could just use a large cpld, and get hardware gate level replica short of using an otp asic
No overhead from needing a CPU core, memory and code and bus timing requirements
You can do it with an Arduino
If an atmega8515 can do it a 328 can do it, I think it has to be clocked at 20mhz or so not 16
@@Clancydaenlightened First off, good luck finding a CPLD with enough gates in a smal enough package that isnt BGA, and finding one thats 5v tolerant.
An AVR really wouldnt cut it - they have no hardware maths, and to implement filters well in software you need floating point. The RP2040 is pretty much suited to the job... pretty much in the same realm as the ARMSID but cheaper.
you should use much more flux HAHAHAA
Ok then! 🤣
You need to use that flux with a smaller needle. You're using the large needle. You should have received two sizes. Wherever you bought it, did you wrong. For chips, obviously, only flux the pins you plan to tack down first. But it being sticky is exactly what you want for these components. You're just using too much at a time.
Why the Pi Pico and not a ESP32?
You would have to ask the project creator that.
😄
Obligatory clueless "great project, but it's so huuuuuge :("-Comment.
I'd rather not buy original hardware due to the higher risk of failure. Id rather emply a hybrid method- reuse keyboards and cases and use Pico or Bare metal parts/ software to emulate the old hardware. I do like though, what modern circuit boards, micro processors and SBCs such as Pi, have done for the retro scene.
When somebody want to change sid to an emulator why not make another step and emulate the whole c64 on a pc?)
Thanks for watching 😁
What do you propose as a solution when the SID's die so frequently and easily ? They arent made any more, and never will be... there's only so many spares out there.
I think I would personally steer clear of this project due to the silly Creative Commons non commercial / non profit licensing. Technically that means PCBWay can't sell it, and you could argue that you can't fix and sell C64s with it either. I'm a big fan of CC licensing usually, but the choice of license here seems odd.
Yeah unfortunately a lot of people don’t really understand the licenses they choose. It sounds like the developer themselves uploaded it to PCBWay, hence the profit share, through if they did all the design work they can re-license it as they see fit… but yeah the point about “what constitutes non-commercial” is a big problem. Does featuring it in this video break the license because of CZcams ad revenue? Or your example of fixing a C64 for someone, what if you give them the chip at cost but change for your labor, is that comercial use? No one knows! 😅
@@einsteinx2 Completely agree. It's probably a case of the author not fully understanding the ramifications, but it ends up making things complicated. And I personally don't have a problem with businesses making some money supporting the niche hobbies I'm into!
I honestly never understood any of the creative commons stuff and trying to determine what's what. Everything I make I just mark as public domain since in my case this is just a hobby... I definitely think creators should be allowed to get paid for their work though, and it annoys me when i see people selling others work. I saw someone recently selling PCB's of someone elses project the other day and when someone asked them for help, they basically said 'i've never used this, you'll want to reach out to the creator' which definitely rubbed me the wrong way.
If it stops unscrupulous sellers making them and then charging £40 for them, whats the problem? There's been too much profiteering in the retro world, and I suspect the original designer is sick of it.
What a dumb reason to not explore something. You realize there's no magic authority checking in on all that, right? You can do whatever you'd like, especially if you're not planning to make money off of it. I mean if it's honestly that big of an issue to you, you could just contact the original creator and ask them why they chose what they chose, perhaps enlighten them on how you would do things.
...👏🎉🎯💯👍❗
✨⚡⌨️🖱️🎮⚡✨
Also 4 the algorithm.
Seeing you be confused by Github's releases tab amuses me
I've used github for a long time and I still get confused sometimes... not a great UI.
I dunno if they changed the recipe but Monster Munch Pickled Onion just hurt my face now😢
Its true. I think they have added a few more chemicals. Chemicals were so much tastier in the 80's!