MOTOVUDU - Trackday Rider Training Part 20: Corner Entry - Closed Throttle Turning
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- čas přidán 31. 12. 2017
- For this technique you need confidence in the front tyre but once you get it you use it on almost every corner at every track.
Visit www.motovudu.com for more information on Motovudu products and one to one rider training. - Sport
Awesome!!!!
You know CZcams's algorithm is broken when you've been watching track riding videos for over 2 years, and only just now discover SIMON CRAFAR GIVING THE HIGHEST LEVEL TIPS RIGHT HERE! I'm grabbing my notebook and sitting down...
same here ahah !
Same here!!
Same, but 3 years for me, and I have actively searched for videos with these keywords
Same, and the first I looked for riding tutorial videos was in 2011.
Just found these videos and had no idea who Motovudu was but I instantly recognized your voice, Simon. I remember seeing you standing and watching riders at Clearways, Brands Hatch when you were riding for Kawasaki in WSB and I also saw you win on the 500 at Donington. This is great advice to give riders and will help them progress quickly.
Thanks for sharing Simon, I have asked for your two motovudu books for Christmas so I'm looking forward to reading them!
I've been working on this with my ZX-12R I got last year. When I was 14 I started riding big Sport Bikes for people racing and never just really learned how to ride, I felt I was learning, but now after a year I love seeing tips like this. I feel this is the way it should work looking at races and the tires, this is a great tip!
Did this on the streets and it feels so much better. After setting up the speed and gear there is so much less to think about. Great tip for beginners as well.
I been closed throttling turns...it is working tremendously..I like your stuff Simon
Thanks for the explanation of this technique! I always hear trail braking. Not a massive fan of it myself. This is for sure the better way to go for most situations!
I studied this vid several months ago and it’s improved my riding 1000% 👌
what method did u use prior?
Excellent! Definitely one of the best on CZcams
big respect, just big big respect and thanks for Simon!!!
as a newbie to track riding great to get these tips....cheers
Very good point about the closed throttle in apex/turn. I actually didn't know that until I took the Keith Code training courses.
Yes this is a great series you put out. I really get alot from your quick no nonsense tips. I have trouble executing some of them though. I think. I have gotten much smoother since watching. Times have dropped 20 seconds per lap. More confident rider since watching. Thanks
That's great Gary 20 Seconds!
While watching and hearing the explanation (actually tried this, it is smooth in cornering). Watching you makes me think this is the same smooth riding style of Jorge Lorenzo back in yamaha.
These video's are great man. Thanks for the safety & training.
Amazing. Thank you very much Simon!!!
It's great to see people sharing their opinions and knowledge. My opinion is, be careful breaking with the rear tire in a turn. This is what is happening when the engine is trying to slow down the rear wheel when you close the throttle. Maybe look into how the laws of physics work on the motorcycle before, during, and after a turn. You might want to include the gyro effect, how the geometry of the bike shape changes under different stresses, how the weight distribution changes, and your body position. There are lots of videos helping us learn but I recommend putting a little math into the thoughts. When one or more of your tires are trying to slow the bike down where does the weight start shifting to. Then what tire is starting to get more traction. I came across this video and they even point you in the direction of books that cover that "math" stuff I referred to. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong. I just don't want my brother to be riding his motorcycle relying solely on his rear brake during a corner.
czcams.com/video/gPE67XqGsV4/video.html
Trying this right now and it take some time to get used to but helps alot with the turning in...thanks
I kinda worked this out when I was a kid riding BMX & mountain bikes. I didn't realise all those hundreds of hours as a kid helped me ride quick on the track with over 200hp under my balls. So many theories...I just did what felt natural and as it turns out I'm in the same camp as Simon :-)
I also apply this to my driving, I find the car feels much more composed.
Thank you for sharing this!!!!
Open the throttle a bit when you've turned the bike in and set up your line, regardless of whether you've passed the apex. Its magic
Sounds like great advice.
The problem for me in particular is to trust the entry speed that is enough to do the phase of the throttle off + max lean.
The trust in the front tire must be 100%
Unknowingly I was using this technique all my life
Same
You're saving the brakes! its economical :P
Same... albeit only been riding since march 2018 but still.
I don’t disagree with this technique but I do believe that trail braking has helped me enter corners at a higher rate of speed and kept my front wheel compressed while rolling the throttle back on during exit. It’s that transition moment from engine braking to throttle where that front brake drag assists with front suspension lift. I think both methods can be combined. Great video 😁
It's corner dependent. As Crafar suggested, hairpins you would trail brake hard all the way to the apex and bang on the throttle. But a long corner you would get most of your hard braking done before half lean angle and then mostly engine braking while max lean angle to the apex.
I think the difference is also in the skill level rider Simon is presenting to. This technique is for someone braking and downshifting very late. It relys on significant engine braking while turning. Most people who are trail braking to the apex wouldn't have enough speed in their current gear, to actually have significant enough engine braking in their set gear. Idk maybe not, but that is my assumption
@@Ganaedwards1990 I think the same. Applying this technic requires some serious speed and trust in the front tire.
Which most of us dont have like Simon and great riders do.
It's like you sling shot around the corner using momentum and centrifugal force.
This information is super valuable to me, thank you for this vudu
Very useful and engaging info!!
+Motovudo great video, especially for those starting off on track days and recreational riding at tracks, and I agree this method is extremely effective on the track, but trail braking truly does have a major advantage to many situations, even when you’re not on the track which many people don’t have the luxury to do.
This method is mostly safe on a controlled environment because you know there isn’t going to be a car, truck or other oncoming vehicle, where as trail braking can be used on any bike in any conditions.
Great video, and I’m not debating your method, I simply feel it’s more for the track and if you were to apply this to the open roads, there are too many variables that could be extremely life threatening, not if your a confident and talented rider, but I nice tight sweeper you are blind entering could have another vehicle destroy you because you don’t have the maximum lean and cornering that trail braking offers in this particular example...
Thanks for sharing, great video 👍🏻
Our channel/videos are specifically for riding on circuit/tracks (Trackday rider training in title)
Motovudu I understand that, and I’ve been riding both road, dirt, and track for almost 30 years starting quite young.
I have two track bikes set up specifically for track days only here (in Australia), I was simply stating to other less experienced riders that you can take these lessons and skills and apply them to the road to be a safer and faster rider
Than you for sharing this Simon!!
You are welcome
Love these vids
Def agree on that Sir. We dont like low sides and high sides - not good for the bones
This guy is better than all of the other diy bullshiters on the CZcams. You can simply tell he is a pro.
The biggest advantage of the closed throttle tuning is that, the suspension spatially the front is not compressed. The front suspension can take a lot of pressure for a very fast cornering, with out flushing the tire out.
This is amazing information which ive been ponering about after having two low sides thank you so much! Also is this the best way to avoid low side or high side crashes i always seek to ride safe?
Makes sense. Throttle stands the bike up, cutting it helps it dip faster into a lean.
Gently roll on the throttle to shift weight to the back of the bike once it has its line and is tipped in, even before the apex. Coasting through corners is harder
Ive been doing this consciously for awhile, ive always thought of it as momentum cornering, drop gear and let the engine braking and lean angle do the work and get right back on throttle just after or before apex!!
That’s for experienced riders but can be learned quickly
This is good to hear - there has been so much you-tubed about train braking. So far, with 1299ccs. my engine breaking is quite sufficient (I'm not however a racer).
Interesting technique. Almost all professional racers on track (me too) brake hard and late, meanwhile you drop the gears, and progressively release the front brake until apex (fully release). No front brakes from entry to apex, really, really risky and more difficult to turn. Also not very profique with bigger CC’s. What you have to do with a superbike is brake al late as you can and pick up your bike as soon as you can to use the horsepower.
I was told to do this by a racer when on cold tyres. At first I was clutched in, before slipper clutches, so was a bit jerky on exit when reengaging. I still do on cold tyres but not clutched in anymore so can control the exit better. I still tend to prefer gradual throttle progression through the corner when tyres are warm in 2nd or 3rd gear but im not a racer,..
I do something this all the time on the street, I use a lower gear (2nd gear on my GSXR 750) and roll off late going into corners. I keep my RPMs relatively high all the time and only rarely use 3rd gear and higher. RPMs are your friend. Jap sports bikes love being flogged.
you ride around in 2nd?
HORNET6 only use 3rd on highways and maybe if the weather is really hot. I also always use earplugs.
Awesome videos all is great explain
@Motovudu - Simon I'd love to ask you something and if that's possible to receive the answer it would be (wait for it...) LOVELY. So I get the fact that closed throttle entry after hard braking maintaining fork compression makes the bike's suspension "trail" shorter (making radius of front fork more steep), so that means it's able to corner tighter. BUT I'm in struggle into getting the things right I believe - according to (yes, you got it !) Twist of the wrist, you should load in the corner like ~40% of the mass at the front (less contact patch), ~60% at the rear (cause rear tire got larger contact patch) especially when getting into loose surface or wet conditions occur (shown @ TotW with that green "lean bike" kawasaki") you will probably lose your front due to "instability" (caused by lack of "optimum thorttle control"). BUT (again) there's a point in TotW movie, that tells to turn in, point the bike, crack and start to add the throttle continuously - but you cant start adding the throttle while turning at full lean because that means either unloading front = lowside, or overloading rear (often seen by r6 users who don't consider the peak NM of that angry bike" at +10k rpms) = high probability of high side. Bike either wants to corner, or accelerate ( If you want both, you have to split it - 70% lean, 30% throttle- that's how I got it, but in track riding as you've said in one of the materials "it's not who's on the gas first, but who's on full gas first" but on the roads its more about being stable and safe). That's the only thing that's messing my minds, all of the rest is perfectly clear for me :)
One of my motivations for writing the original Motovudu book is that i don't agree with all that.
Anyway, no high level rider thinks in percentages , they feel how much grip they have front and rear then use it all and at the right time. The tyre limit is constantly changing due to tyre wear and also changes when the bike balance and setup is changed (tyres, ride heights, springs, preload settings etc). The rider adjusts how much he or she uses the front or rear to suit this.
Regarding the road. This is not made for the road, its made for helping people to understand how to go faster on circuit.
I hope this helps clear things up a little.
Kind regards
Simon Crafar
Twist of the Wrist did nothing to help me. When I was a total newbie, I used to turn without throttle and it never gave me any trouble. Then I watched Twist and slid several times trying that "roll the throttle continuously throughout the turn". I have to admit it happened on the road, so I guess the advice is for track use maybe, but I'm so glad I've seen this video, turns out I was smarter when I knew nothing.
Wow, I’m an ex CSS instructor and BSB rider and I have no idea what that means…. Good job interpreting that Simon!
This totally works!
He speaks the truth. If we take what what Simon Says and turn it into what we do - we will go fast
Thanks David!
Motovudu sir. I've tried the technique and it does make my laps time faster. I just need to clarify one thing. What is the best time for me to get back on the throttle. Thank you
The best time to crack the initial throttle is an important moment and it has to be not to early or too much as then the bike will run wide. I make sure it's done super smoothly and before the speed is reduced too much. The actual moment is for the rider to decide, just enough throttle that the deceleration is very smoothly halted and it's that moment when the rider has decided that to reduce speed more would be negative
Motovudu thanks a lot sir. This is something against the hype (maintaining throttle in the corner for better traction or trail braking to get the best time). But it does help me improve my lap time. I really appreciate it
thank you.
thank you!!!
Great! 👍
The concept is closed throttle to turn in. Of course you have to trailbrake and let off the brake a fraction before you get to the maximum lean angle, then pick the throttle and increase the opening as you pick the bike up.
Trailbreaking will allow you to put the bike in the right place for the entry which is your goal for a good exit :)))
You sound like a trailbraking devotee that must make everything fit into the "trailbraking is the best way to corner". There is lots of footage of the best motoGP riders that are completely off the brake before they turn into the corner, dispelling your myth. And there are many corners on road and circuit such as long fast sweepers where you are gonna get lapped trying to trail brake until you are happy with your speed and line. Don't be so narrow minded it is limiting to growth and potential. Trailbraking has it's place in everyone's reportoire but it's not THE way to approach every corner.
in some corners if works, im still prefer to reach 100% throttle right before trailing, then trailing and immediately use throttle and make the state in between as short as possible. Just after using front break add throttle, slowly first than more aggressive but with no delay, either breaking or accelerating
Great tips
I get the technique, but trail braking has proven to be a better alternative to carry maximum corner entry ( i.e. enough but not too much) in order to have the most efficient corner exit. TB helps the front dig in to the surface. But there IS a fine line between just enough and too much front brake.
The downward force on the front wheel depends on the bikes deceleration, not the source of that deceleration. It isn't the front brake that creates the downforce; it is the bike leaning forward. So, leave the front wheel to do its job without having to also do braking, and let the rear wheel decelerate the bike via the engine. You can always add some trail braking to the engine braking if you aren't getting enough, but it makes sense to me to use trail braking as a supplement to engine braking as needed. Thoughts?
Nice one Simon
Matt and Mike ,of course you know better than an ex moto GP rider😂
Very well explained
would you still use engine braking sometimes? Or do you use this on every turn?
achieves the same thing as trail braking but less efficient...loading the front tire before turn in yes. but brakes slow the bike faster than the engine.
I'm no expert on the technique but it sounds like Simon is saying that closed throttle cornering is faster as it lets you carry a higher corner speed through the corner as the bike is turning more efficiently. If you are trail braking in you give up lean angle as the tyres only have so much grip to give. That's probably why he says this technique isn't as suitable for hairpins and other slow corners.
@@hughiemg2 It's basically a racing technique, not anywhere near what's needed on roads, where reaction time enters the equation, and trail braking rules. He even warned about it. When you're using 100 points of lean, braking is out.
I feel like I can put my head 4 more inches over the front for more weighted front tire now with no braking incidents. Sound right? I have been to far back with my head in turn position anyway.
Many race track riders content that the dead time between braking and getting back on maintenance throttle should be minimized to mili seconds therefor hitting the turns in a V shape with braking deep into the corner releasing the brake momentarily and almost immediately go back on the throttle. Which is correct or best?
you know....i have done this technique instinctively without even knowing about it. i always turn into the corners off throttle no brake. its only until recently that i have practicing trail braking. this is on the road though not track where i presume you really have to lean the bike.
Will it be called coasting
This tip works if you go slowly, but if you're fast you will need to trail brake into the turn before you get on the gas. If you want to boost that effect you can up your engine brake on a specific gear in your ignition mapping. I do that on BMW's cal kit. But saying its safer to roll off than trail brake to make the bike turn in is not the proper advice if you wanna be fast. Trail braking with less engine brake will make the bike nose heavy but increasing the engine brake or/and using the back brake in combination is the way to go if you want to win on the track. Many riders today use thumb brakes instead of the foot brake. But I guess it all depends who the audience for these clips is, which I dunno.
Wow! How many World Championship podiums have you got? I've only got 13.
Lmao gotcha simon i took second in my championship won 2 races and podiumed 4 times my results may not be typical but i watched that dark art more times than i can count and read the book till my eyes hurt.btw id never even been to track till last season thanks for helping be safer and faster.
I watched this and decided to try this at a track day. Nevertheless the pit girls i usually flirt with were impressed indeed. Unfortunately two of them are pregnant with my child. Best advice ever
Glad to hear we helped :-)
Unconvinced. Last time I went down was into a traffic circle decelerating with a closed throttle. My rear tire hit some debris from a tree that was flattened by hundreds of cars. My rear tire locked up and drug the tree debris and I did a 180 slide. Ever since then I avoid engine braking like the plague, especially in a turn, except when also using the front brake simultaneously. I understand that the rear will rotate more under rear braking but I question whether this is the safest or the fastest technique. I think it is certainly more risky.
All our videos are specific to track/ circuit riding.
@@motovudu Thanks for the reply and clarification!
Hello there. There are so much, and new information in so small content.
Important Question:
Does engine break deform the front tyre the same way as Trail breaking does for a bigger contact patch? Or there is an extra benefit when engine break regarding grip and weight distribution.
Thank you!
Closing the throttle does transfer weight to the front but not enough to deform a sports tyre that is correctly inflated. At an extreme level when entering a corner as fast as possible, hard on the front brake I use the engine brake to the extreme to help reduce the weight and deformation of the front tyre.
The main advantage of closing the throttle is a tighter turning circle than is possible with the throttle open.
The downward force to flatten the contact patch, which is often used as the reason for trail braking, is going to happen because the bike's deceleration causes that regardless of whether the rear brake, engine, or front brake is decelerating the machine. Calculating that weight transfer would consider CG height, wheelbase, and level of deceleration; and is independent from the source of deceleration. Trail braking alone would also use up more of the tire's available grip than splitting that task between engine and front tire, or using engine alone.
🇬🇧Thank you 👍🏾💯🏍
Words of wisdom! Give your focus now to your body position being able to flex your right hand further making a better line between shoulders- if you dont have to tension the throttle, your less likely to have the front tire wobble coming out a turn also! Something my Suzuki is tender about...
I wish I was clever enough, skilled enough and brave enough to even try this
It still amaze me how the science of leaning off could affect the effectiveness of your bike
I've been riding now for 2 months and this is what I've been using but being told it's wrong all the time.. but I really like it. Cool
if you have been riding for 2 months. you are most definetly doing it wrong. This is for experienced riders who can use the maximal lean angle of the bike.
But what do i know . Maybe you are already scraping knees with perfect body position?
@@cfvgd no I'm not super advanced but I'm faster than people that's been riding for a couple of years. And yes I'm already scraping my knee if needed to. But I got much to learn obviously. I'm a rookie 😊
dont quite understand, does this means you are coasting into the corners?
Is it a tip for beginners to start being familiar with high corner entry speed or as you get faster, and you have to brake hard, you should minimize the overlap time between brake and throttle? Also, do you apply that technique to any type of corner?
Yes I apply this technique to almost every type of corner but the more tight /hairpin/ stop go the turn is, the shorter the time I can use it.
On the more fast flowing turns it's slower to minimise the gap between brake and gas because staying on the brake so long lowers mid turn speed and so you need the gas when you wouldn't if you'd got off the brake sooner and used the max lean grip of the front tyre and the geometry. Opposite as many think.
amazing video - answered a question i have had forever. when you mean "off throttle", you mean technically the maintenance throttle just to keep rpms stable after the trail braking segment?
no, Simon said "off throttle means off throttle. The bike never turns as well as at the moment when at full lean with closed throttle. The more you open it the wider it will run. Same is true in reverse'
@@motovudu thanks! I'll have to practice this season
Motovudu wouldn’t that be considered “coasting” through the turn?
Driving on the street i mostly ride like this
Simon I tried this and it felt really controlled and gave me confidence...I had problems knowing what gear to be in when I got back on the throttle. I am not sure if I know my speeds and rpms how to match up thru corners to maintain good speed. Sometimes I lose count what gear Im in and lug the engine or over rev and engine brake myself to death. Should i know what gear rpm power band is maxed or best at a specific speed. Say I come off of a 130mph straight line track portion.? throttle off into the big # 1 sweeping turn Then I know I have a 90degree left after exit of #1 i am always lagging my rpms trying to carry a max speed to #2. Where I drop from 130 to 70 in #1 to much lost speed in #2 ..I feel like i need a gear indicator to keep track of what gear im in. Does this make sense. Im not feeling the correct gear to open up the throttle in. With throttle off entry I feel Im coasting, or cruising too much. Im a 5 month rookie sportbiker but have been on all bikes since i was 8. I like your riding style. Im trying to adopt it... you are really smooth and stable.
Thanks sir, Gary in Colorado USA
I don't personally look at the gear indicator, I count down the changes for each corner. In other words I know this corner is down 2, the next down 1 and so on. Yes I also take a note of how the bike is reving (rpm) and engine braking to double check I'm correct.
I'm glad to hear you're making progress with it. Remember, the faster you enter the more engine braking you'll need (lower gear may not be necessary at lower speeds but will be as your speed / laptime improves
@@motovudu Simon, thanks I will keep working it.
hello sir,
can closed throttle turning be a substitution for trail breaking?
do professionals use this technique during race?
I believe pro racers are either on the brakes or on the throttle.
As the video states, it depends on the corner which technique is more effective. Tight hair pin corners, then trail braking and flowing corner the closed throttle method.
to achieve more lean you are applying pressure or more countersteer to the bar during the whole corner? i cant seem to kick the bike over like that @motovudu
Its hard to know what level you're at without seeing you ride but from what you're saying I can relate it to other riders I work with. The scary thing for many riders is committing to a corner at speed, because entering fast is much more intimating than going slow then adding more throttle as you want. On entry you must decide when the time/track position, angle of entry and speed is right and let the brake go. That takes practice and commitment.
To answer your question yes I put input into the bars to make the bike lean into the turn and then I decide when to release the front brake. The majority of turns are done in this order. I get the bike on the right trajectory while braking toward the corner then decide when to release the brake. Once I've released the brake there is less pressure on my arms and I commit my upper body to the turn holding myself on the bike with my upper leg around the tank which also holds the bike down in the turn. Yes there is a little input into the bars in turns but I try to keep it to a minimum letting the bikes geometry and tyres do the work until I need to crack the throttle....
the part i dont get is how to get it to lean more in a corner, keep countersteering until my knee is almost touching? or do i need added speed. (i do lots of twisties for now and i dont push it hard, fastest entry for me is 80kmh until i can throttle out) maybe im afraid of keep pushing the bar for countersteer in a corner? anyway thx a bunch simon youre a legend!
First of all, you can’t ride like this on the street so don’t do it and send yourself into the woods. I have experience in both - (track and street, and some woods, lol) and if you want to lean your bike like that there are two key factors. 1.) proper suspension setup and 2.) leaning your body off the bike. Bonus! - 3.) proper tire pressure. Get those in order, go to a track day, and enjoy dragging knee and turning there. On the streets, keep it to a milder version. Biggest thing is people don’t get off the bike enough with their bodies.... your legs should feel like jelly after a couple sessions holding your fat ass up on one leg in the turns, then you’re doing it right!
Makes sense :-)
great vid. your motorcycle doctrine is the total opposite of what keith is preaching. I think your techniques are superior than CSS'.
I see some ppl challenge his practices and explanations and that's fine.. but let's not get ahead of ourselves here and disagree just because we don't understand the points that are being made.
Why not ask for more info or research into a subject instead of disagreement for the sake of being 'the winner of the internets'?! I'm sure there are more ways to eat an ice-cream (fast)... there are some basic moves, but there are also some cool ones... :} see what I did there?
I'm gonna leave this here, just for perspective: mr. Simon Crafar has the trophies to attest that he enjoys riding both on road and 'ultra-offroad' (see Red Bull Romaniacs, 2007 Expert Class) not to mention teaching young talented riders (as in The European Junior Cup) proper skills and safety...
What about bumpy tracks? On some tracks there are bumps right in the corners little bit lean already upsets the bike
I take care trail-braking on bumps , but if they are on line and can't be avoided I change nothing and try my best to ignore them, building up lap by lap. Constant/neutral throttle is the safest way to go over bumps, but often not the fastest (if they are in the braking or drive area for eg) .
If you’re taking the turn on a closed throttle then when is a good time to get back on it?
I would imagine either at the apex or the point in the corner where you are sure acceleration isn't going to compromise your final exit line to the point where you need to chop the throttle again
When do you pull the clutch?
When you are changing down gear/s. I don't completely disengage the clutch just enough to change the gear and it has to be done before you release the brakes and before you are at too big of a lean angle so the back wheel doesn't step out uncontrollably. Of course none of this is necessary if you have an auto-blipper.
Hold my phone... I'm going to try this right now on my big 1800cc twin cruiser
Same rules apply to any bike!
I do not understand this tip. I've always felt like turning and braking at the same time makes the front feel planted with more grip and a better geometry for a faster turn with less effort. Is it because you use a lot of engine braking instead of front brakes?
Agreed... trail braking allows you to turn tighter because the wheelbase shortens when you load the front. Maybe he's got his engine braking cranked up in the fuel map so he still benefits from this effect.
Not saying this as a know it all mate, just sharing this from what I’ve read (rather than knowledge gleaned from practice!) but I understand you should have your braking out of the way before you’re turning? Am I right?
if you want to go fast, you need to apply a trail braking technic: finish 85% of your braking before your turning marker and the remaining 15% you apply smoothly from the turning point til apex, slowly releasing your breaks right before the apex. This way your front is loaded allowing more grip and better feel. Plus as I said above, loaded front makes the bike turn easy.
Dead Mazai Simons technique seems different to this though? I’ve done California Superbike School, they don’t bother even bringing trail braking into the mix until you’ve done all four levels apparently it can cause more problems than it solves (for inexperienced riders) Id say I’m an intermediate level rider on track days and want to progress this season, I’m at a point where I need to pick out some ideas and start practicing. Trail braking gets talked about a lot, but it seems to rely a lot on feel and experience which to me, seems to leave the door wide open to a lot of errors and misjudgements - I know that’s bike riding in general, but if there’s a system thats a bit more consistent and distributes what it asks of the machine and rider more evenly perhaps that’s a better practice for me to learn now, whilst I’m forging habits?
In reality, what's happening is very similar to what people are saying about trail braking. I read/watched MVudu a few years ago and it honestly was a great learning experience. Then, with extensive road riding you eventually learn that trail braking is possible and safe, especially when you know the roads well (same for track), but not often needed or useful in most cases. The similarity is in the perception of speed when comparing road to track. On track, a good rider will be going into most corners so much quicker than on road that the braking point is a lot later. Simon is doing this in the video. The only difference with pronounced trail braking is that it's deliberate to extract the very last bit of braking just before the apex. However, is this necessary in most cases? No. Is this generally required in road riding conditions? No, not generally as there are many other factors on road than can compromise corner speed, therefore negating any real benefit from trail braking. Undoubtedly Simon is utilising the benefits of engine braking which gives the front end grip and allows a stable turn in but the emphasis in the video is on creating a good entry line and turn in. Whereas you can only really exploit (proper) trail braking by having perfect corner entry and excellent front grip. If you actually look at the clips again, you'll see that (whether the rider could have trail braked more deliberately) the hand off the throttle is always mid-corner which is the point between getting off the brakes and getting on the throttle. So we're talking about very fine margins. Both techniques work as long as you have good front end grip.
This is the exact opposite of kieth code’s rational but I think that’s because he was riding 2strokes with less engine brake.
nice video.....IoI
Hold my beer let me try this on my Dr 650
While doing this should the clutch be pulled in or left out to continue engine braking? Thanks
Never pull the clutch in while cornering.....
@@KR4Z3D666 👍
I always select gear position while braking then get rear settled and clutch out before committing to the corner. Hope that answers the question.
Can i apply this on the street?
Motovudu was not designed for use on the street. Many techniques are too risky for use on the street, but in the end they are skills for controlling a large capacity motorcycle at high levels. The particular technique you are talking about could be very useful if you have entered a turn too quickly and need to stay in your lane for safety reasons. In this case I personally would not hesitate to use it. Anything to stay safe.
I have a problem with this no brake closed throttle turning technique for street riding. It is definitely not as safe or controllable as trail braking. The biggest problem with this suggestion is that by not using your front brakes you have eliminated the #1 best way to control your entry speed. You (I mean the average rider) will never know exactly how much deceleration engine braking will give you. You can guess and you might be close but you might not. Your brakes are infinitely adjustable to control your entry speed. Too fast? a little more brakes. Slowing too fast? Lighter application of brakes. Engine braking is not very adjustable at all. It is what it is. You can get away with this closed throttle on a track even though the results may be risky i.e. too wide. But on the street if you take away your ability to adjust your entry speed thru braking your risk of a problem goes up to potentially catastrophic. Getting into a corner too hot and you have decided not to use your front brakes? Uh oh, here comes a car in the other lane, or a parked sightseer taking a photo or a moose or whatever. Closed throttle braking in lieu of brakes is risky and you are avoiding using the surest bike control you have to slow down. Its a dumb idea with no upside and a lot of downside.
Besides all that, applying the front brakes settles your suspension, compresses your forks a bit which actually helps you turn in faster under braking. The best riders in the world use their brakes to slow and adjust their corner entry speed. Why should we do any different?
As we constantly specify these videos are made for riding on track NOT the street!
@@motovudu thank you, Simon. We have some riders on a KTM street forum promoting this exercise on the street and I appreciate the clarification.
All well and good until you miss a shift going into the turn
Isn't this affected by the engine configuration? The engine braking on my 2 cylinder is so strong, that if I don't keep the throttle open a slight bit, or open it before the apex, I feel like I'm going over the bars or washing out the front because of the harsh deceleration. How should I time the throttle closing, braking, leaning and opening throttle with the harsh engine braking on my 2 cylinder?
p.s. Thanks for the helpful video's!
In had this problem and went around the bend up one more gear than I usually would. This decreases the amount of engine braking! Give it a try and get back to me😉
I used to freak out when I'd come into a corner so fast that I had to close the throttle. Watched this video, went out and tried it, fuckin-a i gotta say its some next level shit and hard to do exactly right, but when you get it perfect it's just like you say, you never feel the bike turn better and tighter ( most of the time I wouldn't get it right and I would have to adjust the line by opening the throttle a blonde-one or so.)
I feel like God-mode would be trail braking to closed-throttle-perfect-entry, but God damn that would be so sketchy and difficult!
Isn't there an apparent paradox? Braking increases weight to the front tire, thus increasing overall traction to it, BUT braking also uses up that traction to slow the bike.
So isn't the fine line, the finesse, then, to brake properly to create more traction than the act of braking uses up? In other words, braking to create a net increase in available traction to the front wheel. Is there a range of braking intensity (deceleration) for which this criteria is met?
I don't know if trail braking can increase available traction to the front wheel as described, but I do buy the YCRS's concept of keeping the front tire loaded before working it by maintaining slight brake pressure, as opposed to completely releasing the brakes, albeit smoothly and progressively. The initial load primes the tire to handle additional load. It's like bracing yourself just before you're about to resist a force.
I have noticed after years of working with people that some love to ride bikes and just want to know what is important to do so well. Others prefer to talk about it in detail because riding fast is scary. I love to work with the first group of people. The second, I recommend to one of the other schools.
It’s allllllll about timing. Everything
It seems wrong for me. This technique shows that you start your deceleration to earlier before a turn, if you can slowdown without brakes. And it shows that you are too far from the speed limit in this turn if you can make it without light acceleration that moves weight from the small front tire to the back one that could handle much bigger forces.
Wait, so no maintenance throttle mid corner?
A slightly different technique from Crafar is to come off the brakes early and to use engine braking to load the front tyre in the turn:
czcams.com/video/ps12mz_i3-0/video.html
So I guess this means it isn't a neutral phase?
idk, this goes almost against everything champ school teaches with trail braking and being on the brake till you're good with your direction....we can't control engine braking, but we can control speed and direction with braking, even past tip in...