NOTE, this is a farmer trial and as you can see in the video, definitely full of error. But generally speaking, most of the OA “condensed” into a measurable amount. So I conclude that the 230 temp is adequate for speed and administration of the OA in its finest form
Chemist here, you need to weigh the actual oxalic acid scoop and make sure you are really loading 3 grams into the system. And the dust you are observing is just the oxalic acid stuck to the bags being launched into the air in the bag due to rustling the bag. It is forming a super thin layer inside the bag and so any disturbance will kick it loose and make it airborne.
@bduerr5082 Just curious, Ian did his test into an empty bag outside, would the OA change back to a dust or film quicker with more surface area such as comb and bees plus temperature inside a hive? 20 minutes seems like along time to what I have observed. It is possible my bees just fanned it out.
If you're looking to seal the entrances for an entire yard, you might consider buying some of those grout sponges and cutting them into strips to stuff in there. They are super cheap, last forever and take up way less room in your truck than towels (which might get fairly stinky/moldy if they get wet). They're also perfect for moving hives... They sell them in packs of three at Home Depot.
20 minutes, wow! Ian it was interesting to see the volume of "air" that was produced. The amount of air the OA displaces in the hive. FYI: we have developed a 2.5 inch extension. The metal used for the tube was the key. It really doesn't stress the heater bowl as much as one might think. Just one of those things our metallurgist came up with. Thanks for the farmer's measurement!
@@dlblocher Our guy ran everything from stainless, brass and so on. My personal is Titanium. Which is for the most part impossible to mill. Final results to follow.
The original tests in Europe using the pan method showed about 82% of the OA was delivered inside and most of the rest was either water (96%OA is 4% H20) or stuck to the pan or escaped - escape is the major loss in the field.
ive just used some of those cheap red towels from harbor freight stuffed in the entrance, and usually leave them in for about 5 minutes. thats usually about 4 hives plugged up at any one time. i got holes drilled in the back of the hives so i don't have to worry about bees/OA escaping out around the nozzle of my instavap too. and when i'm not using OA, the holes are plugged with a golf tee that i chopped down to 1 inch.
Ian I really enjoy how your brain works buddy, it saves mine so much frustration and head aches.👍 Sounds like the vaporizers burn up about a gram during the process, could be why 1 gram doesn't do much. In my opinion, it's fine that some escapes the bag that's how it is during application. Interesting it does cause me to lean towards closing them up longer maybe about 15 to 20 minutes, but that is a good while. Blessed Days Ian...
I made wooden plugs with a hole for treating. That was for the older style vaporizer, but I’ll have to do it a little different with my new battery powered unit I think. Still I think wood is the most convenient thing to block the entrance. I just keep a handful in my box with OA stuff
One of the biggest chemical concerns I've heard about is not how much but if the PID of the regulator is not critically tuned you would over shoot and start burning the acid into potentially harmful substances (not sure if its valid). I started to experiment with PTC heaters because they are manufactured to only heat to a particular temp for that reason. If anything it would be nice to drop all of the electronics and simplify the system. I just ran out of time and found higher priorities for my hours. I use other methods for mites and since I have so few hives it's not the time sync for me that you would experience. OAV is pretty much the only choice for speed. Love seeing folks experimenting trying to learn more. Have fun.
Another variable I thought of, the hive has 10 frames with all kinds of surface area which may attract the vapor whereas nothing much sticks to plastic. But I would still think that closing the entrance for 5-10 minutes is a great idea. I like using the grouting sponges cut into length. Cheap and easy to store and apply.
It would be interesting to do this same test on a warm day, since I imagine that the super cold bag would have increased the amount that condensed out.
I use it also, (since 3 months it is legal in Germany). By sublimating it in the hive the OA crystals will form all over the bees body and hairs. Keeping the hive closed for 20 minutes should not make a bigger difference than just 5 minutes. Interesting would be to do the same test with different temperatures
I was told to keep entrance blocked for 10 minutes after sublimation. I chopped up a load of old towels to use as entrance blocks. Keep your mask on as you will defiantly destroy your lungs. Take care. 🙂
Your deep is full of bees, frames and way bigger than the plastic bag volume wise. Won’t that make a big difference in the absorption rate of the Oxalic vapors?
You can do a trick to improve the accuracy of the measurement. Seal the bag by inserting and taping a silicone tube that fit the sublimator nozzle. Take all the air out of the bag and add 100ml of water. Weigh the bag. Then connect the sublimator to the tube and sublimate. It will blow up like a balloon. You shake it a bit so the water traps the oxalic acid crystals and then you remove the sublimator to let the gases escape. Now you are ready to weigh the balloon and find out exactly how much oxalic acid remains after sublimation.
with the 20mins, withina. colony there is alot more surface space on the frames, and on the bees to condense on. In a bag, there is only so much surface space.
@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog I love, love-how you “Store your PINK Cap…”- I’m usually fumbling in my pockets looking for it- AND absolutely enjoy all Your Citizen Science 🧪🧪🐝
@@IceBug1337 do you prefer 3 times or fumigate? do you prefer 100% survival? Everything is being organized, we are already working on the fact that the tags on the queens are made of metal and the queen is searched for with an electromagnet, you turn off the electromagnet and the mother falls into the insulator, and the question is whether it is necessary to insulate 2,000 queens in one day? or 200 for 10 days? and the same with treatment?
Great experiment, they recommend 10 minutes blocked. Just had a thought do you think it would take 20 minutes to dissipate in hive. My thoughts would be quicker as your environment has bees frames, compared to bag. You should do similar experiment next time you do a hive. Fog a sealed super no bees or frames for 10 min, then do an active hive and visually you may see a difference. Plan to do for first time this yr, thanks for video.
That would be a good one for the tech transfer program. Probably need at least 3 units in each test pattern for statistical validity. Test 1A : Deep with frames - no entrance block Test 1B: Deep with frames - entrance blocked Test 2A: Deep with frames and equalized bees/brood - no entrance block Test 2B: Deep with frames and equalized bees/brood - entrance blocked
Pretty interesting. Do you think that the bees fanning inside the box causes it to react any differently than just sitting in a bag? If you put 3 grams in and you’re collecting 2 grams out of the bag do you think the 1 gram that’s vapor is possibly attaching to bees though? Great experiment and I know there is a lot of factors to consider. But I’m just thinking out loud.. that missing 1 gram i would think is still doing some good.
If anyone is going to buy this vaporizer, you have to realize that you need at least 5.0 Ah for it to work. I bought one and tried to use my batteries. Not working I contacted the company and they explained that my Ah wasn't high enough for it to properly work. I went to the store, bought a new battery, and it worked great. A 6.0 Ah would be even better.
The results that matter is how many mites drop from a temperature of 230 vs a lower temperature. Grams delivered means nothing. I have done my testing, and I know the answer. Numerous sources say optimal sublimation temperature is 157⁰C to 185⁰C Here is something interesting, oxalic acidin in its vapor form, decomposes at 125-175 °C into carbon dioxide, CO² and formic acid. When I do OAV at 185⁰C, I don't have acid drifting away in the wind because OA turns back into its solid state quickly. Go back outside with the bag tomorrow and give 185⁰C a try, I bet it doesn't take 20 minutes to settle down. I personally have a better mite drop at a lower temperature.
Good observation for sure. I have such old boxes blocking the front entrance would help…. Only a little. You are getting more for you money on use of the oxalic. I do wonder what the extra time accounts for though putting them on and coming back and removing. That’s a lot of rags needed, but definitely worth it if you kill those buggers. Now this test shows how long it floats around but not if it increase its efficacy. In theory I would agree it would but if it gets onto everything In 60 seconds, does it really increase “kill” rate. These are some more farmer tests that will need done. Maybe you and Randy Oliver need to collaborate this😊. I would definitely like to see the data on that. I would definitely like to do some more testing myself but just don’t have the time when I am struggling with everything else.
The issue here is 5he possible breakdown of the OA into other chemicals which would affect the efficacy of the chemical. All you are measuring with weight is the movement from crystal to vapor and back to crystal. But what purity is the material that condensed in the bag? Is it still 99% pure OA? Or has the heating process broken it into something else?
Cool experiment.. so the 230degrees C is the mist optimum setting to go with on the Instavap? Or will you change the temperature in the future sublimations a bit? Ive seen the sticky for the paid members about the sublimation temperatures, where some guy said he has tried different temperatures and that 230 isnt the best one?
The bees in the hive will be fanning wings so how much of the acid "dust" do they fan out of the hive once the entrance blocking rags are removed? On the other hand there is a lot more "surface area" in a hive of bees than a plastic bag for the dust to settle on.
I'm going to play with adding little glycerin to the oav treatment.. I'm hearing good things had guy down in Florida reach out with 5k units . Swearing by it .. leaves a sticky residue.. kills longer they are saying.. like a hybrid dribble method.. ill try it on one see what happens..
NO!!!!!! Formic acid can be produced at lower temps by heating oxalic acid in glycerol.. Glycerol acts as a catalyst, as the reaction proceeds through a glyceryl oxalate intermediate.
If anyone has a really accurate hive scale. Do the treatment and see how much product sticks vs blows away! So you got us thinking for sure. However I don’t think this test did what you think. The original question was “is the temp correct or is it too hot causing the oxalic to burn instead of sublimate”. The law of conservation of mass predicts the bag will gain exactly what you blow into it. Only a chemical analysis will tell you if what is in the bag is the right chemistry after heating.
The OA is heavier than air , should it be administered near the top of the box ?This might ensure a full dusting on all frames and bees as it settles down. maybe a dedicated hole at the top of the box that can be plugged after .
Blocking entrances And any hole in the top makes a big differance. Found a mesh floor does'nt effect the efficacy. Small leaks seams ok, makes me feel better (looks as if its working). Greatest number of mites drop in 2nd 24hour period What a job, but it works.
Hi Ian, I’ve just bought an instantvap, I didn’t buy the yellow silicone thing that sits at the bottom of the tube on the basis that it’s not too cold where I am in the north UK and it is relatively expensive. What do you think it does for value? Thanks, really enjoy your videos. Jonathan The Penistone Honey Company
I don't know English. I wrote to you before to ask you to enable the Turkish translation option on your channel, but you did not do so. I would like to use your good information. There is no oxalite machine in Turkey. Can you send me one? I cannot afford to buy that machine. You are a good person. I would be grateful. ❤
Ian you are assuming that the OA measuring device is giving you exactly 3g each time....worth checking what you are actually dispensing. Also I would imagine that the OA vapor will condense and stick to the relatively cool frames and bees much better than a plastic bag.
I drill a 8 mm hole in the back of the box. Close the entrance and vaporice by the 8 mm hole back.. After the work i close the hole with a plastic plug or something similar... Sorry for my english
Afaik, the mass blown in your bag should be 3g (if the dose was 3g in the beginning). You captured the ox, but also the water and maybe the formic acid (if the temp was too high) will condense inside your bag. For a more scientific approach, we might need to blow the steam thru some solution, and afterwards measure the oxalic acid inside the solution (by titration with Potassium permanganate maybe?)
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog No, my believe is first it would condense on your plastic (as the outside is colder than inside). Maybe we can provide you some details about our tests, we will do in about two weeks. We will try to push the oxalic acid vapor thru some kind of water solution, hopefully the pressure is high enough so that it goes completele thru. Afterwards we might have a solution of oxalic acid and formic in a water solution, - and my idea is do get the oxalic acid concentration by titration with pot.permanganate. We want to test some different temperatures and doses, as we want to check out at which dose and temperature formic acid is created (too high of a temperature creates more formic than oxalic vapor) - e.g. 200°C, 210°C, 220°C, 230°C and also with 1gram, 2gram and 3gram
Time to call the people that came up with the treatment idea and see if they judged sucess by the amout of OA that stayed in the hive, or by mite fall. Haight be that the research was done knowing that not all of the OA would stay in the hive.
This looks like a good problem for your tech transfer organization. They should be able to form the experiment, perform a few trials then report results and recommendations for everyone to use. This is a good question for research.
2.29 grams, looking at what vapors spilled out the back of the bag, is not bad. I wonder if you were able to create a seal and do this experiment what it would show.
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog the parts that split to formic acid and water will also cool down and condense. I don’t see a problem anyway because even if it had a staggering 50% waste we still had 1.5 g effective dosage. Thats 0.5 more than the scientists in germany recommend.
Looks like warm weather this next week... Should be able to get a OAV treatment in... I will get to see how many hives made it thus far...🤪🤓 You forgot to weigh the stuff you inhaled😵😵😵😵 Be careful my friend🥸 I made some better entrances that reduce OAV loss...I have a video of them on my channel🥸
But if you lose that fine dust that won't condense...how much of the dose gets lost? It may be easier to increase the dose by 1 gram, and accept that 1 gram of the dose will be lost. Sometimes it's easier to just run a couple more hives, rather than trying to increase the efficiency of every other hive. Follow the 80/20 rule. It's easy to spend 80 percent of your time on the 20 percent that is least productive. Sometimes you're better off to focus on the 80% that is doing great, and let the 20% fall by the wayside.
Isn't the concern it breaks down into lesser components? Those lesser components(formic acid and co2) will still have the same total mass, just not as useful OA. You'd have to isolate the OA somehow.
It’s the condensed product on the bag that I’m weighing, which in theory should be OA. If the remainder gassed, it will not hold weight in the bag as it was weighed in the container Not perfect but proves that there is a good amount of weight residue using 230 temp
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlogyes I know it can be hard on them, I was leary at first but this past (Late) fall , I did 2 very small OA liquid sprays treatments ,had tremendous good results with mite drop & bees look great today.. NE Ohio. Got to 50F /10C today so I took a peek in a few... that was the only treatments I did all of 2023.....I also want to try the OA glycerin extended release pads.., I bought everything to do a trial run this year..
I read it becomes Formic acid and Carbon monoxide if vapourized too hot . So possibly the beginning is transformed to formic . But once the temp drops a bit its just oxalic thats sublimated .
The reaction to formic acid and co2 starts happening at 372, above the temp where OA sublimates 315. The issue is if the temp sensor is reading a cooler part of the device and some of the solid OA is getting to 372.
NOTE, this is a farmer trial and as you can see in the video, definitely full of error. But generally speaking, most of the OA “condensed” into a measurable amount. So I conclude that the 230 temp is adequate for speed and administration of the OA in its finest form
Chemist here, you need to weigh the actual oxalic acid scoop and make sure you are really loading 3 grams into the system. And the dust you are observing is just the oxalic acid stuck to the bags being launched into the air in the bag due to rustling the bag. It is forming a super thin layer inside the bag and so any disturbance will kick it loose and make it airborne.
Yes, the dose was measured at 3g
@bduerr5082 Just curious, Ian did his test into an empty bag outside, would the OA change back to a dust or film quicker with more surface area such as comb and bees plus temperature inside a hive? 20 minutes seems like along time to what I have observed. It is possible my bees just fanned it out.
It would be interesting to measure how much of the OA has decomposed in formic acid.
I assume that Formic would of just gassed off
What effect does cold vs hot temperature have on this experiment? Would that not make a significant impact on the total delivered dose?
If you're looking to seal the entrances for an entire yard, you might consider buying some of those grout sponges and cutting them into strips to stuff in there. They are super cheap, last forever and take up way less room in your truck than towels (which might get fairly stinky/moldy if they get wet). They're also perfect for moving hives... They sell them in packs of three at Home Depot.
You also have exponentially more surface area in the hive with bees for the dust to stick to as opposed to the bag.
20 minutes, wow! Ian it was interesting to see the volume of "air" that was produced. The amount of air the OA displaces in the hive. FYI: we have developed a 2.5 inch extension. The metal used for the tube was the key. It really doesn't stress the heater bowl as much as one might think. Just one of those things our metallurgist came up with. Thanks for the farmer's measurement!
Intererested to know what your extension was made of?
@@dlblocher Our guy ran everything from stainless, brass and so on. My personal is Titanium. Which is for the most part impossible to mill. Final results to follow.
I would never of thought about doing that. Very clever. I was expecting the bag to melt wherever it touched the unit. Good information to think about
The original tests in Europe using the pan method showed about 82% of the OA was delivered inside and most of the rest was either water (96%OA is 4% H20) or stuck to the pan or escaped - escape is the major loss in the field.
Great experiment! Very clever farmer trick! Thanks
Such a smart fellow! Enjoy your creative approaches to bee keeping.
Thanks 4 sharing 😊 I enjoy your channel
ive just used some of those cheap red towels from harbor freight stuffed in the entrance, and usually leave them in for about 5 minutes. thats usually about 4 hives plugged up at any one time. i got holes drilled in the back of the hives so i don't have to worry about bees/OA escaping out around the nozzle of my instavap too. and when i'm not using OA, the holes are plugged with a golf tee that i chopped down to 1 inch.
excellent experiment and surprising at how long the OV stayed in the vapor state.
Ian I really enjoy how your brain works buddy, it saves mine so much frustration and head aches.👍
Sounds like the vaporizers burn up about a gram during the process, could be why 1 gram doesn't do much.
In my opinion, it's fine that some escapes the bag that's how it is during application.
Interesting it does cause me to lean towards closing them up longer maybe about 15 to 20 minutes, but that is a good while. Blessed Days Ian...
I made wooden plugs with a hole for treating. That was for the older style vaporizer, but I’ll have to do it a little different with my new battery powered unit I think. Still I think wood is the most convenient thing to block the entrance. I just keep a handful in my box with OA stuff
Muy buen tomador de café y un genio en la abeja 🐝🐝💪☕😎😎
One of the biggest chemical concerns I've heard about is not how much but if the PID of the regulator is not critically tuned you would over shoot and start burning the acid into potentially harmful substances (not sure if its valid). I started to experiment with PTC heaters because they are manufactured to only heat to a particular temp for that reason. If anything it would be nice to drop all of the electronics and simplify the system. I just ran out of time and found higher priorities for my hours. I use other methods for mites and since I have so few hives it's not the time sync for me that you would experience. OAV is pretty much the only choice for speed. Love seeing folks experimenting trying to learn more. Have fun.
One would need to weigh the Oxalic acid to make sure you are using 3 grams in your experiment. Great Video.
Yes off camera I measured the dose to be 3g as it was set
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog Thank you for the reply. Great information
Yep, Im with ya, Im gonna have to start blocking the entrance now!
Another variable I thought of, the hive has 10 frames with all kinds of surface area which may attract the vapor whereas nothing much sticks to plastic. But I would still think that closing the entrance for 5-10 minutes is a great idea. I like using the grouting sponges cut into length. Cheap and easy to store and apply.
I agree, good point
We use damp cloth strips
It would be interesting to do this same test on a warm day, since I imagine that the super cold bag would have increased the amount that condensed out.
I use it also, (since 3 months it is legal in Germany). By sublimating it in the hive the OA crystals will form all over the bees body and hairs. Keeping the hive closed for 20 minutes should not make a bigger difference than just 5 minutes.
Interesting would be to do the same test with different temperatures
Be interesting if you could try the same experiment with something with more surface area, to better mimic a hive with bees. Maybe a nuc with frames?
I was told to keep entrance blocked for 10 minutes after sublimation. I chopped up a load of old towels to use as entrance blocks. Keep your mask on as you will defiantly destroy your lungs. Take care. 🙂
Your deep is full of bees, frames and way bigger than the plastic bag volume wise. Won’t that make a big difference in the absorption rate of the Oxalic vapors?
You can do a trick to improve the accuracy of the measurement. Seal the bag by inserting and taping a silicone tube that fit the sublimator nozzle. Take all the air out of the bag and add 100ml of water. Weigh the bag. Then connect the sublimator to the tube and sublimate. It will blow up like a balloon. You shake it a bit so the water traps the oxalic acid crystals and then you remove the sublimator to let the gases escape. Now you are ready to weigh the balloon and find out exactly how much oxalic acid remains after sublimation.
with the 20mins, withina. colony there is alot more surface space on the frames, and on the bees to condense on. In a bag, there is only so much surface space.
@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog I love, love-how you “Store your PINK Cap…”- I’m usually fumbling in my pockets looking for it- AND absolutely enjoy all Your Citizen Science 🧪🧪🐝
I wrote you a comment about isolating mothers for 25 days. In Poland it is used in September when feeding and after 25 days we only fumigate it once.
Popular in Europe they have to pay for disposal of the mite treatments in Europe can't just throw them in the trash So they do brood breaks and oav ..
What do you think how Long it takes to find 2000 queens?
@@IceBug1337 do you prefer 3 times or fumigate? do you prefer 100% survival? Everything is being organized, we are already working on the fact that the tags on the queens are made of metal and the queen is searched for with an electromagnet, you turn off the electromagnet and the mother falls into the insulator, and the question is whether it is necessary to insulate 2,000 queens in one day? or 200 for 10 days? and the same with treatment?
@@pasieka.zawadayou didnt answer my question.
@@IceBug1337 I do not understand everything . I translate through a translator
Great experiment, they recommend 10 minutes blocked. Just had a thought do you think it would take 20 minutes to dissipate in hive. My thoughts would be quicker as your environment has bees frames, compared to bag. You should do similar experiment next time you do a hive. Fog a sealed super no bees or frames for 10 min, then do an active hive and visually you may see a difference. Plan to do for first time this yr, thanks for video.
That would be a good one for the tech transfer program.
Probably need at least 3 units in each test pattern for statistical validity.
Test 1A : Deep with frames - no entrance block
Test 1B: Deep with frames - entrance blocked
Test 2A: Deep with frames and equalized bees/brood - no entrance block
Test 2B: Deep with frames and equalized bees/brood - entrance blocked
Pretty interesting. Do you think that the bees fanning inside the box causes it to react any differently than just sitting in a bag? If you put 3 grams in and you’re collecting 2 grams out of the bag do you think the 1 gram that’s vapor is possibly attaching to bees though? Great experiment and I know there is a lot of factors to consider. But I’m just thinking out loud.. that missing 1 gram i would think is still doing some good.
P R E T T Y darn interesting Ian
If anyone is going to buy this vaporizer, you have to realize that you need at least 5.0 Ah for it to work. I bought one and tried to use my batteries. Not working I contacted the company and they explained that my Ah wasn't high enough for it to properly work.
I went to the store, bought a new battery, and it worked great. A 6.0 Ah would be even better.
Ya I have 8 and 12 amp batteries
The results that matter is how many mites drop from a temperature of 230 vs a lower temperature. Grams delivered means nothing. I have done my testing, and I know the answer. Numerous sources say optimal sublimation temperature is 157⁰C to 185⁰C Here is something interesting, oxalic acidin in its vapor form, decomposes at 125-175 °C into carbon dioxide, CO² and formic acid. When I do OAV at 185⁰C, I don't have acid drifting away in the wind because OA turns back into its solid state quickly. Go back outside with the bag tomorrow and give 185⁰C a try, I bet it doesn't take 20 minutes to settle down. I personally have a better mite drop at a lower temperature.
I have been told the same. Except C02 and Formic don’t accumulate residue on the sidewall so I’m assuming it was OA that condensed
Good observation for sure. I have such old boxes blocking the front entrance would help…. Only a little. You are getting more for you money on use of the oxalic. I do wonder what the extra time accounts for though putting them on and coming back and removing. That’s a lot of rags needed, but definitely worth it if you kill those buggers.
Now this test shows how long it floats around but not if it increase its efficacy. In theory I would agree it would but if it gets onto everything In 60 seconds, does it really increase “kill” rate. These are some more farmer tests that will need done. Maybe you and Randy Oliver need to collaborate this😊. I would definitely like to see the data on that.
I would definitely like to do some more testing myself but just don’t have the time when I am struggling with everything else.
The issue here is 5he possible breakdown of the OA into other chemicals which would affect the efficacy of the chemical. All you are measuring with weight is the movement from crystal to vapor and back to crystal. But what purity is the material that condensed in the bag? Is it still 99% pure OA? Or has the heating process broken it into something else?
I’m assuming it was sublimated, and condensed as it’s original form
Very cool! Next question is how much OA is actually required to kill mites and is that dose dependent on number of bee frames? Lots of variables.
Cool experiment.. so the 230degrees C is the mist optimum setting to go with on the Instavap? Or will you change the temperature in the future sublimations a bit? Ive seen the sticky for the paid members about the sublimation temperatures, where some guy said he has tried different temperatures and that 230 isnt the best one?
The bees in the hive will be fanning wings so how much of the acid "dust" do they fan out of the hive once the entrance blocking rags are removed? On the other hand there is a lot more "surface area" in a hive of bees than a plastic bag for the dust to settle on.
I'm going to play with adding little glycerin to the oav treatment.. I'm hearing good things had guy down in Florida reach out with 5k units . Swearing by it .. leaves a sticky residue.. kills longer they are saying.. like a hybrid dribble method.. ill try it on one see what happens..
I’ve never heard of that
NO!!!!!! Formic acid can be produced at lower temps by heating oxalic acid in glycerol.. Glycerol acts as a catalyst, as the reaction proceeds through a glyceryl oxalate intermediate.
Don't we use formic as a mite treatment?
@@glennsnaturalhoney4571 not uncontrolled but slow release...
If anyone has a really accurate hive scale. Do the treatment and see how much product sticks vs blows away! So you got us thinking for sure. However I don’t think this test did what you think. The original question was “is the temp correct or is it too hot causing the oxalic to burn instead of sublimate”. The law of conservation of mass predicts the bag will gain exactly what you blow into it. Only a chemical analysis will tell you if what is in the bag is the right chemistry after heating.
Yes for sure. I’m assuming that what accumulated on the plastic was condensed OA.
The OA is heavier than air , should it be administered near the top of the box ?This might ensure a full dusting on all frames and bees as it settles down. maybe a dedicated hole at the top of the box that can be plugged after .
Blocking entrances And any hole in the top makes a big differance.
Found a mesh floor does'nt effect the efficacy. Small leaks seams ok, makes me feel better (looks as if its working). Greatest number of mites drop in 2nd 24hour period
What a job, but it works.
Hi Ian, I’ve just bought an instantvap, I didn’t buy the yellow silicone thing that sits at the bottom of the tube on the basis that it’s not too cold where I am in the north UK and it is relatively expensive. What do you think it does for value?
Thanks, really enjoy your videos.
Jonathan
The Penistone Honey Company
I was provided it , it helps with the spillage
Great video. Bob Binnie might be the pope, ,but you are the professor! Do you know if the device you use to load the vape reproducibly delivers 3g?
I weighed out a few doses, to exactly 3
I don't know English. I wrote to you before to ask you to enable the Turkish translation option on your channel, but you did not do so. I would like to use your good information. There is no oxalite machine in Turkey. Can you send me one? I cannot afford to buy that machine. You are a good person. I would be grateful.
❤
Ian you are assuming that the OA measuring device is giving you exactly 3g each time....worth checking what you are actually dispensing. Also I would imagine that the OA vapor will condense and stick to the relatively cool frames and bees much better than a plastic bag.
I weighed out a few doses. It’s pretty much bang on every packed in dose
And I agree
I drill a 8 mm hole in the back of the box. Close the entrance and vaporice by the 8 mm hole back..
After the work i close the hole with a plastic plug or something similar...
Sorry for my english
Afaik, the mass blown in your bag should be 3g (if the dose was 3g in the beginning). You captured the ox, but also the water and maybe the formic acid (if the temp was too high) will condense inside your bag.
For a more scientific approach, we might need to blow the steam thru some solution, and afterwards measure the oxalic acid inside the solution (by titration with Potassium permanganate maybe?)
You don’t think the Formic, water vapour and C02 would of gases off?
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog No, my believe is first it would condense on your plastic (as the outside is colder than inside). Maybe we can provide you some details about our tests, we will do in about two weeks. We will try to push the oxalic acid vapor thru some kind of water solution, hopefully the pressure is high enough so that it goes completele thru. Afterwards we might have a solution of oxalic acid and formic in a water solution, - and my idea is do get the oxalic acid concentration by titration with pot.permanganate.
We want to test some different temperatures and doses, as we want to check out at which dose and temperature formic acid is created (too high of a temperature creates more formic than oxalic vapor) - e.g. 200°C, 210°C, 220°C, 230°C and also with 1gram, 2gram and 3gram
Time to call the people that came up with the treatment idea and see if they judged sucess by the amout of OA that stayed in the hive, or by mite fall.
Haight be that the research was done knowing that not all of the OA would stay in the hive.
do the test in warm conditions and see if it's different results.
I'm super confused. All the literature says OA doesn't sublimate until 315F. Why do vaporizors/sublimators only target ~230F?
I’m reading C
isnt it the vapour condensing that destroys the feet of the varroa mite, so wouldn't the bag weigh as much as the initial dose
W
Holy sheep dip. Be careful!!! 66% isn't too bad
Have you considered extended release pads?
Yes,
This looks like a good problem for your tech transfer organization. They should be able to form the experiment, perform a few trials then report results and recommendations for everyone to use. This is a good question for research.
2.29 grams, looking at what vapors spilled out the back of the bag, is not bad. I wonder if you were able to create a seal and do this experiment what it would show.
Me and my farmer trials lol
If it splits to OA-Vapor and other stuff, how do you know you are not weighing the other stuff?
I’m assuming the condensed material is OA
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog the parts that split to formic acid and water will also cool down and condense.
I don’t see a problem anyway because even if it had a staggering 50% waste we still had 1.5 g effective dosage. Thats 0.5 more than the scientists in germany recommend.
Looks like warm weather this next week... Should be able to get a OAV treatment in... I will get to see how many hives made it thus far...🤪🤓 You forgot to weigh the stuff you inhaled😵😵😵😵 Be careful my friend🥸 I made some better entrances that reduce OAV loss...I have a video of them on my channel🥸
Isn't oxalic acid hygroscopic? If so, part of the vapor in the bag is water vapor, which might affect your measurements.
I surmise that the possibility that most scientific advancements happened Midwinter in countries with over 8 months of winter 😂
Farmer science
But if you lose that fine dust that won't condense...how much of the dose gets lost? It may be easier to increase the dose by 1 gram, and accept that 1 gram of the dose will be lost. Sometimes it's easier to just run a couple more hives, rather than trying to increase the efficiency of every other hive. Follow the 80/20 rule. It's easy to spend 80 percent of your time on the 20 percent that is least productive. Sometimes you're better off to focus on the 80% that is doing great, and let the 20% fall by the wayside.
That’s why everybody use the 4 grams doses
Isn't the concern it breaks down into lesser components? Those lesser components(formic acid and co2) will still have the same total mass, just not as useful OA. You'd have to isolate the OA somehow.
It’s the condensed product on the bag that I’m weighing, which in theory should be OA. If the remainder gassed, it will not hold weight in the bag as it was weighed in the container
Not perfect but proves that there is a good amount of weight residue using 230 temp
Dribble or spray method , nothing floating in the air then
The dribble is highly effective
But hard on the bees when applied more than once
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlogyes I know it can be hard on them, I was leary at first but this past (Late) fall , I did 2 very small OA liquid sprays treatments ,had tremendous good results with mite drop & bees look great today.. NE Ohio. Got to 50F /10C today so I took a peek in a few... that was the only treatments I did all of 2023.....I also want to try the OA glycerin extended release pads.., I bought everything to do a trial run this year..
I am thinking at least 20 grams escaped.:)
On a serious note 2 grams in the bag is not bad.
But you don't know if its OA or formic acid and co2. Of course no matter was destroyed(other then leaking), we just don't know what form its in.
I read it becomes Formic acid and Carbon monoxide if vapourized too hot .
So possibly the beginning is transformed to formic .
But once the temp drops a bit its just oxalic thats sublimated .
Bingo. If this is just testing the leaking, then great. But its not testing how much OA is sublimated as OA.
I think it’s is, a very crude way. It’s measuring the weight that has condensed onto the sidewall of the bag. I assume that’s OA
@@AntonyTrupeso what temperature do you recommend?
The reaction to formic acid and co2 starts happening at 372, above the temp where OA sublimates 315. The issue is if the temp sensor is reading a cooler part of the device and some of the solid OA is getting to 372.
Only under pressure or with Glycerol as a catalyst. .
And be careful that looks like to much already.
them bees don't hold their breath they have to breath
Please wear the mask. Don't need the commentary. That stuff is nasty.