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Is racism underpinning the 'war on woke'? - Sathnam Sanghera
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- čas přidán 17. 08. 2024
- Sathnam Sanghera is a journalist and writer. His most recent book, Empireland, explores how the British Empire has shaped our fundamental understanding of every aspect of British culture.
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Krishnan talks to Sathnam about culture wars, the 'footballification' of politics and whether political correctness has gone too far.
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Great interview, enhanced by the empathy & experience of the two participants. There’s so much material to cover that it should have been a longer session
“We need to rediscover the ability to agree to disagree” that’s the truth!
Quite interesting and I wish it was a bit longer.
That's what she said
A good teacher makes all the difference .
The British working class couldn’t vote until 1918, but it’s cool how they have managed to take the brunt of it and the blame.
I'm pretty sure that people who got conquered, massacred and forcibly enslaved had it a bit worse than the "British working class".
And you would be too if you were willing to do some real reasoning.
@@emm_arr Were the British working class not massacred in the trenches then? I’d check out the life expectancy during colonial times for the British working class compared to other parts of the empire it might surprise you, or do your victims have to be specific colours.
@@ratherlargehooter8200 I'm pretty sure that people who got conquered, massacred and forcibly enslaved had it a bit worse than the "British working class".
You are still not thinking enough. Try again.
@@emm_arr what part of the British poor were the first victims of empire are you not understanding?
@@ratherlargehooter8200 "what part of the British poor were the first victims of empire are you not understanding?" You never made that claim, so I'll never answer that question!
I'm pretty sure that people who got conquered, massacred and forcibly enslaved had it a bit worse than the "British working class".
That's beyond any reasonable doubt.
Another fascinating Ways to Change the World episode, which I always think should be its own CZcams channel, they have so many good and thought-provoking conversations up. And the point is well made - I wish I'd been taught more about the British empire as a child, not just had it repeatedly rammed down my throat how wonderful it was that we won WWI and II.
This is an amazing talk and perspective
Q. Is racism underpinning the 'war on woke'?
A. Look at how people who oppose it are liable to hold racist views too. The 40+ comments already posted show a pretty clear connection!
I agree - woke = racist.
Excellent, we need more conversations such as this. Am enjoying Sanghera's book 'Empireland'.
Absolutely love this interview. Well done to both of you. So fascinating. I’ve followed you both for so long
Thank you for having this conversation.
Excellent podcast. I was able to relate to the issues covered. Even the words 'British Empire' was never mentioned in my schools from 70s onwards.
Brilliant conversation! Vitally important. The arrogance and ignorance of people in the ‘UK’ about our history and an exceptionalism that exceeds ‘US’ exceptionalism to the degree that we don’t even recognise our legacy as being fundamentally built on genocidal horrors and exploitation is an astounding failure.
I would echo a point at the end of this interview pushing back against the notion of ‘civility as healing’. Ideas and practices of civility *may* be healing but what do they heal? I see that it restores what exists, civility protects the status quo, this is how the absurd idea of ‘British politeness’ has been a cultural weapon against honestly engaging with the absolute centrality of white supremacy in Britain.
‘Civility’ will only sink us back into the pattern of denial and myths that kept us stagnant in our privilege so long. Listening to each other, being patient, sitting with the very real discomforts of whiteness, legacies of Empire and our own complicities is not to be ‘civil’ it is an affront to civility. Civility demands silent acquiescence to the status quo. Sitting with discomfort and the patience to push back, again and again, to make the effort to get better at these conversations, at reaching people, this is antithetical to civility. This is just what it takes and often it involves being uncompromising in ways that disturb people and ourselves.
In what way is the little island that managed to create an empire that spanned a quarter of the globe and spearheaded the industrial revolution not exceptional?
Do you only focus on negative aspects of history John? It's okay to be white.
@@tpower1912 woah!
Well said. The crimes of the age of colonialism are coming home to roost, as they were always bound to some day. The nations who profited under these outrageous, inhumane acts on other sovereign nations and peoples have an obligation to first acknowledge and admit to the situation, and second to make amends.
@@tpower1912 They were building on the trade links across the Mediterranean since the Bronze Age. It was only in latter years they got greedy and decided to take the lot.
Really interesting chat, definitely going to check out Empireland.
You should, especially if you hate white people.
Reading Empireland at the moment and it’s very enlightening.
Wow, Sathnam Sanghera really rocks, he's so spot-on!
Really interesting hearing you both talk - am in the middle of Sathnam’s book, Empireland, which is full of such thought provoking takes on aspects of empire. Unlike more straight forward historians, Sathnam gets right into the nitty-gritty of human understanding and experience of the complications and consequences of Britain’s colonisations. Although British, a family’s origins may be in those countries that were colonised, and that automatically makes for a totally different and eye opening perspective on our history. A very very good read and highly recommended if you want to educate yourself about Empire.
It’s not very good for educating yourself on empire - he is not an historian. However if you’d like a one-sided view on then it’s a great start.
great interview. i really like these, you always seem to learn new things you haven't thought of before, and find new intersting writers fi;m makers etc....
Excellent debate. More please!
The word Woke is not negative, those who oppose the term are clearly uncomfortable with a conversation about injustice. That tells me all i need to know about those people and media outlets who have tried to bastardise the word.
Yes 100%. Anything that is linked to making sure racism is always unacceptable is attacked these days.
Political correctness doesn't go too far every time a right wing newspaper "finds" an example because they make these things up. How many times have they claimed politically correct people want to ban Christmas? When you look at the facts, it's never true. (But we can agree to disagree - except when it comes to actual facts.)
Yep. The same crowd that claim that they can’t sing “ Ba Ba Black sheep” anymore, because of PC culture 🤷🏾♂️
Yes some people want to disagree with facts as if they are opinions because it doesn't suit their narrative.
I was enjoying that. Shame it's not a bit longer... :(
That's what she said
Awesome conversation guys.
Satnam you should do Smethwick revisited - so many people from different backgrounds there today
A much needed debate, thanks 👏
I did GCSE History and all I learnt was about the two world wars.
I wish Guru Murthy would occasionally divulge how he feels rather than constantly batting off questions from his interviewee. It would be more natural if he did.
Agreed. We've lost the ability to agree to disagree. Look at interviews from the 60s and 70s and see how they did it. It wouldn't happen nowadays.
that's because in the 60s and 70s they all lived under the soviet threat
I can't understand how this is for many white people their 1st experience of hearing their own history and the experience of BAME people living in Britain post Empire
Why do you have that impression? What are you basing your assumption on? When you say 'white people' do you mean British people?
@@H00bster 'While there is certainly a lot of political, true believer racism' What do you mean by this?
@@jo18533 ^^ FSB shitposts. #ShitpostQuean
30:00 Q: 'Where did [Woke] go too far?'
A: 'Wokeness' went too far when it became a presumed right to police speech and behavior, day in and day out
Nobody likes to be policed, still less to be policed by people who openly regard themselves as entitled to based upon an assumed morally superiority, yet who as often as not are starkly less well-informed - who often don't read books and usually know nothing of history, yet take their superiority as a natural and given fact of life
And I write all that as someone sympathetic to the progressive agenda (if not to the intellectual forebears of woke such as Foucault or Said)
30:07 Krishnan asks 'at what point did [political correctness] go too far?'
Clue: It's the second most popular video on this channel.
"Clue: It's the second most popular video on this channel." Er, not based on the number of views.
You're funny. Cute little lies.
@@emm_arr what?
Literally
We were never asked.
Asked what? About stuff before you were born?
How original 🤡
Very interesting but too short. Can we have a follow up?
Obviously. What other reason can there be for people being irritated at being told how to talk, think and behave? They're racists.
The amnesia is not just a British thing! I would say that talking about the British Empire and its darker aspects are slightly more open in the UK than in France, which still has problems discussing its crimes in Algeria or Indo china. At least you can have these conversations in the UK! In France Marine Le pen goes into a diatribe against anyone who dares criticise France, and its colonial crimes.
It's not amnesia, we don't care and we shouldn't.
Or Italy, or Spain, or Portugal, or Germany, or the Netherlands, or Sweden, or Russia, the Ottomans, or Japan.......
Or further back with the Umayyad Caliphate, the Byzantines, the Romans, the Mongols, the Seleucids, the Persians, the Vikings, the Greeks, the Egyptians. If you go far back enough, everyone has fucked over some at some point in time. It's only in recent years that anyone has paid any reparations and it only ever seems to be The West that does. I don't see anyone else owning up the atrocities of their past or current regimes (we all badmouth America and Britain when China literally has concentration camps).
there are loads of issues we need to talk about.. it feels like everyone is getting washed away etc
What is an example of one of the issues we need to talk about?
@@jo18533 disability discrimination, forgetting about mental health etc.
The historical claims in the book were generally reasonable, but I wish he’d taken a course on causal reasoning. Drawing an analogy between two things (e.g. treatment of Indians under British colonial rule and treatment of black immigrants in Britain in the 1950s-1960s) doesn’t justify the claim that they have the same underlying cause.
"Empire never turned up!"
29:27 As to how the word "woke" went from source to being a word used to demonise - and demonise for profit.
Nobody is born racist, it’s a thing which is learned by others or personal examples
@Brian Bedford 'The UK is one of the only few countries where one has to state their so called ''race'' to get a job' Are you high?
@Brian Bedford That's a Russian sockpuppet account.
@Brian Bedford You tell me the law where you have to state your race to gain employment in the UK.
@Brian Bedford I am British and I don't know what you are talking about. You tell me the law where you have to state your race to gain employment in the UK.
@@jo18533 "I am British" No. Russian!
Everyone, please stop pointing to your own "race" as the reason people hate you.
When there are HUNDREDS OF OTHER REASONS people could be sick and tired of you.
YOU DON'T GET TO DECIDE WHAT I DISLIKE ABOUT YOU.
Get it?
Yes and I'm happy with that
The true measure of a person is not where they are from ... but where they are going.
The true meaning of woke is needy, brainwashed, Marxists.
@@rjwlfc "The true meaning of woke is needy, brainwashed, Marxists." No. That's your shitpost dismissal.
Exactly, One's Origen or background does not have to define who they are although it does in some cases.
@@rjwlfc There's always at least one comment coming out with nonsense like yours.
No
Seems I am a racist now. Oh well, I wasn't for the first 62 years of my life...
If it makes you feel any better you probably were
Are you sure about that?
A business column? yuck!
"The trans issue"
Staying friends with someone who thinks the dignity and human rights of others is 'debateable' isn't something I've ever been interested in.
I like Sanghera's assessment that history is being discussed in increasingly 'babyish' ways. The evidence of this is everywhere, where talking about crimes against humanity and narratives about glory are criticised with responses that leap with 'great offence'. There is as Sanghera said a real 'footballisation' approach to historical perspectives, simplified into overly competitive matches, and even brutal wishes to destroy people with revisionist critical voices. While the comparison with Germany, who accept at an establishment level their historic racial failings, is one the British would do well to learn from. If this was the case perhaps the Scottish SNP would not have the same power in their threat to split off from the UK. It would also create better cohesion between racial groups and class could also be discussed sensibly. As for developments of 'wokism', this has to find a way of bringing white working class (and under class) people into the debate to show how they can see their problems in similar light to marginalised racial groups.
However, a more aware and conscientious left behind group of working class people able to socially cohere, and rid of vulnerabilities for manipulation into scapegoating other marginalised groups is what people feeding the right wing culture war fear most. Therefore, the right wing culture war oozes with great stench, the divide and rule unwritten policy of many in the establishment, who care for the preservation of their privileges, and buy up careerists who may not be part of the traditionally established classes. How deluded people are and come to be in these processes is the question, because empire was built through delusions of racial superiority. This belief in innate superiority it appears still befuddles the mind of Jacob Rees Mogg and many others in government. Who controls the past controls the future. 'Who controls the present controls the past' and knowledge of this is power. Diversity of views and synthesis of these views based on evidence, rather than what is convenient to a select few narrows power into the same simplified views that led to the horrors bought about by delusions grandeur.
'While the comparison with Germany, who accept at an establishment level their historic racial failings, is one the British would do well to learn from' But why?
@@jo18533 Colonial murders!! Having said that, if you can recall that Edward abdicated the throne as a supporter of Hitler, who if the Nazis had permitted would of reclaimed the throne, should they of succeeded in invading Britain. That this didn't happen was due to Turrings invention of the Enigma code that stopped the Germans from toppling British supply chains (Despite this Turring as a Homosexual was later helped to his death by the British state). And Churchill can be given a certain amount of credit for his leadership, rather than his role in colonial racism and murder - although colonial genocide by the British took place in Kenya up to the 50's. Anyway if the Nazi had taken Britain Enoch Powell and other far right leaders would probably have been given leading roles in spreading Nazism as well as the returning Edward. I could go on.
However, the point is the roots of ethno centric fictional narratives that can create division and hate existed very much in the recent past of the UK and still exist today. As do hierarchies of domineering class power. They also exist in other european countries, including Germany, although the Germans are more aware, careful and educated on such issues or dangers (because of the Holocaust). The UK established classes, were also supportive of Apartheid in South Africa. These facts shouldn't be eradicated from history which needs to be evidence based otherwise people are deluded about themselves, and this can lead, as seen throughout history to authoritarianism, which as seen throughout history doesn't end well for anyone. This is why Germany is a good country to gain insights from, they speak very seriously about preventing historical racism.
@@jo18533 Can I join your cute club? I think the club should get a new logo. It might be me but it looks like the Gray cat has just killed the white cat.
@@wilfredsterling2124 Sure you can join, I just want to know one thing, what do you mean by 'ethno centric fictional narratives'?
@@jo18533 Genetic research has shown that our ethnicity or race, however you want to put it, are by no means centred to one group or another. Genetic research has shown we are an amalgamation of genes spread out from all corners of the earth. Therefore, it is a fiction to say that the peoples of England are dominated by anglo-saxon genes, or celtic genes, that make us the rightful ethnic group to this land. Although genetics is more complicated than this. Nationalism is a social construct. It is a fiction to say a people have the rightful blood to a land. However, culture and laws that come with the construct of the nation are also important factors in the work toward civilisation. Or only if the laws and customs respect human rights, and the pursuit of truth, that history no matter how inconvenient, or unsettling, needs to provide. If not, and history is written as fiction to delude and control people, then Orwell using examples, e.g the Soviet Union, or even in the direction oligarchs are taking Russia today, wrote a very good book on the potential outcomes.
While subjugating certain racial groups and classes, denying their history, and history in general, the conditions for hate and conflict can arise. History needs diverse voices, opinions, with hard won evidence, so it can be recognised, and we as a creature can then recognise ourselves within it. Perhaps we are a civilised savage, and I would prefer to be more civilised than savage, and celebrate what is good about cultures and culture, while seeing myself under the law as an equal. That to me seems like a lens to see clearly into the past and present, rather than externally guided sensationalist illusions created by the barking voices of Douglas Murray and Nigel Farage, who are both self-interested individuals rather than impartial commentators.
Not "racism", "vvhitism".
Vvitism? Is that a Finnish sauna thing?
No, it's a man too scared to say the word WHITE.
That's all.
It's the whole "Good times create weak men" thing.
@@totalrobot He's got some real problems then!
@@emm_arr actually spelt VVhitism
@@pilot6360 Some real problems ...
Then you got it wroNg in your OP.
Lucky Dave is a liar. He claims not to see it!
I used to dwell on British colonialism and the the negative racial experiences growing up but now seeing how the BJP/RSS are behaving worse than the British in some respects in India and how the Chinese are dealing with minorities, how Israel deals with minorities and how the saudis and Arab Emirates deal with minorities, I don't dwell on it so much anymore. I always find it ironic how when people of hindu indian background raise issues around racism in the UK but are generally in support of the Modi government in India. Jalianwala bagh vs gujrat massacre. Kashmiris and muslims are second class citizens in India.
Use proper English please not woke this and that. Your a British news outlet. Use proper English. Thank you.
@Follow the howl I’m not a intellectual. I’m simply stated that formal language should be used with those that have some sort of outlet and can have actual input in to our society. I I think we are losing English as a formal language.
@@khaleelahmed9009 "I think we are losing English as a formal language." I don't think you ever had English as a first language.
Who are you playing with? Others or just yourself?
Are you trying to limit their freedom of speech? I thought that was the thing that made this country great.
And yeah, we can all tell that you aren't an intellectual.
Wokey cokey?? 🎉🎉🎉
Unfortunately, this book will fall flat.
It will not be read by those whose minds you seek to stir and inspire.
Maybe make it compulsory reading in highschool... But for the general population, few who need to read this actually will.
'Maybe make it compulsory reading in highschool', That's very autocratic of you. 'But for the general population, few who need to read this actually will.' Who *needs* to read it an why?
@@jo18533 So it's autocratic when Dickins or Shakespeare is on a syllabus? A syllabus should be broad and students should be exposed to a range of idea.
@@Graysonn1 I'm not sure you can compare Sathnam Sanghera to Dickens or Shakespeare. A range of ideas? Let's get Evola and Spengler on the curriculum.
Good one , carry on. 👺 👻
I call it winter. Stuff yr X-tian mass bit.
Stop the complaining and get on with it man