The 3 Reasons why I left 5th edition Dungeons and Dragons for old school BECMI
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- čas přidán 28. 06. 2024
- Since starting to play 5th edition, I always felt there were a few things that constantly ground me down. I speak about them here. Please let me know your own experiences with 5e vs OSR in the comments.
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5e is a mutant game covered in vestigial nubs that used to be meaningful mechanics in older editions. Resource management is the worst example. Food and water can be conjured up, everyone sees in the dark, gold is everywhere but there is nothing major to spend it on.
yeah, I play MMORPGs with more lethality.
There's nothing I like about 5e
Nothing
5e was my first DnD, before that I played Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay about 10 years earlier. Our DM always made it seem like Gold was a big deal, and made it seem like a big deal to get it as treasure. 3months later none of us had ever spent more than a few coins. We just had more and more and more gold. I finally just stopped writing it down. I thought I was just unimaginative. But there is really no reason for it in 5e at least.
>Clean up 5e, make that 5.5e
>Replace or remove old mechanics, use modernized game design, streamline what benefits from streamlining, add depth where it enriches the game
>Cut the OGL shit
>Work on your own VTT, make a product worth investing money into as a player and compete by means of quality
>Live up the name
It's that easy WotC, especially with their funds it would be piss in a bucket
@Isaax that's not their goal
I’ve got several gripes with 5E but mainly the fact that all characters are the same anthropomorphic spell-casting super-heroes, D&D use to be a survival horror game.
And Pac-Man was once the ultimate video game. Times change. People change.
@@TwilightxKnight13 Maybe not "the ultimate". But it still a very excellent video game - unless you want to log out of reality for a day or two....
It's available for free online nowadays.
Try it 😉
@@TwilightxKnight13 Talk about being non-sequitor. Video games are VASTLY different from TTRPGs.
@@TwilightxKnight13what does that even mean
@@TwilightxKnight13 yeah but things can change into bad versions of good things made for pinheads.
Main Character syndrome is my biggest issue. Everyone wants a massive main character story arc delivered to them in modern games. It burns me out trying to write a narrative for each player's backstory.
I'd describe myself as a mid-gamer, I grew up on 3rd edition and I firmly believe in emergent storytelling. I hope to see some stuff related to my character pop up in the story now and then [most likely improvised by the GM on a whim when they saw a plausible connection] but I understand the reason I'm there is to play my character in a world that doesn't give a shit about them.
The worst is then you develop a backstory quest and the player is not interested.
@@archersfriend5900 honestly, that would wreck my DM confidence.
I play with 1-3 heroes at a table so they get full screen time each session
And that is one reason no one want to DM in 5e -- I don't, though I have other reasons as well.
I grew up on BECMI and AD&D. I’ve returned to them after realizing they pretty much got it right early on.
I began with BECMI one summer day in 1990. Soon after that my foray into AD&D 2E began. I did “upgrade” to 3.5 in 2003 (and sold my 2E books 😢). We went with Pathfinder when that abomination they called 4E came out, then made the move to 5E about 5-6 years ago.
In each case, at the time I did think the new edition was an upgrade. If only I could send myself a message back in time to 2003 to let me know “stay with 2E; the chucklef🤬🤬🤬s at WotC don’t know how to not fix what isn’t broken.” 😢😢😢😢😢
As a new DM and begginer in to TTRPG I completely agree with you! I recently ran a 5e begginer set with my family and it was cool,but I've always knew about old school DnD and decided to run B/X. With in a span of 2.5 hours i had my group roll up characters and I made up a quick dungeon crawl on the fly. Of course I'm new to this and I'm sure I made some mistakes but oh man it was way more fun,interesting and exciting then 5e. Old school is where its at....
Great to hear of younger generations giving the older games a go. Thanks for the comment.
keep at it, there's nothing like the fast pace and meaningful choices of old school play styles!
One school of thought says that if you had fun with it and found it interesting and exciting, then you didn't make any mistakes at all. 👍
@@becmiberserker I'm old grognard but new to ttrpg,although when I was young my step dad had bought me the monster manual 1e as well as demi gods book and I vividly remeber having the spider queen module. I never played when I was young but was well aware of the game...
@@rafaelosuna4784 Then I apologise for my assumption. Great to hear your story though. A belated welcome to old school!
The long rest mechanic is a good one. It completely changes the play of the game. So much so they hand to come up with a 'down time' mechanic. In old school D&D, 'down time' happened because the fighter needed to rest a couple of days or a week to heal. The wizard needs to research some spells or create new scrolls before going on the next adventure,. 'Down time' happened as a consequence of the game. That leads to 'city adventures' because while certain PCs are doing their thing the rest of the party is left to their own devices. This, in turn, can lead to all sorts of other adventures. With 5E you never STOP.
In 5E magic solves way too many problems. I remember the group trudging hip deep in a swamp, and I was describing how miserable it was, the mud, the wetness, the insects. When they find a piece of dry land to rest, the wizard just cast prestidigitation over and over again until everyone was clean. So you can't even create an atmosphere, or introduce a 'non combat' problem, where magic doesn't solve it.
Imagine if they'd had _mold earth_ or _shape water_ . They could have walked the whole way on dry land without getting dirty in the first place.
Comparing the power levels of cantrips in 5e vs. the 1e Unearthed Arcana illustrates the problem pretty clearly.
Hey, play something like Pendragon 3rd edition where you went on one adventure per YEAR of game time!!
I had a player that wanted to cast mending on everything. Any time I’d describe anything as worn down or broken, or if I wanted to impose some consequence on a player doing something stupid with their equipment. She tried to cast mending on ruins at one point and was surprised and entitled when I said “no”.
@@chrisa84 Why not allow it? It has a casting time of one minute and is limited to damage no longer than 1 foot in any dimension. So they could mend a single brick or something. Big deal.
@@harmless6813 She was going to have everyone sit there while she mends the whole castle. Why wouldn't they camp out there for a few months and get a free castle?
Those 3 reasons are more than enough for me. 👍
But just to add a bit to the conversation - as a player who generally enjoys martial characters, I find them very unsatisfying to play in the current edition. All the casters outgun the fighter at fighting. Even the wizard usually has a good AC, the same to-hit chance and endless cantrips that deal damage just like a weapon. Hit points are the one thing left for the fighter, but you already covered healing and death saves making that rather irrelevant. There, reason #4.
Cheers!
I started out playing BECMI and still love it. The Rules Cyclopedia is the best single RPG book ever. I run Dungeon Crawl Classics now, I really like it for Sword and Sorcery games. It has some new mechanics but it's very old school in spirit.
I sometimes play DCC and really enjoy it.
I don't like the idea of 'dump' stats and being told how I should build an optimal character. I also agree with your points. Combat length could have been it's own thing as an issue. Cheers for another great video.
FOr all new folks getting into this, it would be helpful if you would do a video outline the groups, B/X, BECMI, AD&D, 0,1,2,3,4,5th editions, and OSR.
meh, people need to learn to read. All that information is available online already. If they really want to, there are already videos that cover the editions.
5e, when it came out, had me going "Now this is more like D&D!" And had me thinking back to BECMI. The rules were more in line with what I considered D&D, where 3.0 and up reminded me more of RoleMaster.
However, once I started playing/running 5e, I became more aware of how, what seemed like good ideas and rules, really weren't that good at the table. The rest mechanics, the weaponized cantrips, the death-saves... There was very little challenge to anything.
I have always wanted to keep playing BECMI, but the people I played with wanted to chase editions, like that "one thing" that was missing in the current game would be found in the next edition, or the next, etc.
Since I currently live out in the sticks and don't have a gaming group, I don't have to think about it anymore. I'm quite happy with previous editions and I happily support indie creators and other games, like The Dragon Killer system, Castles & Crusades, When the Moon Hangs Low, Bare Bones Fantasy, and more. I have my BECMI set, my AD&D 1e and 2e. That's really all the D&D I need 🤘 Older doesn't mean simpler or bad. In fact, sometimes it's better.
Good video, sir. Hit all the nails on the head 👍🤘
Edited to fix a grammatical error, courtesy of my phone 😅
If had to argument for it, I would say its more that modern games rarely get around to making death an interesting concept. Just looking at video games (which forms the backbone of most views on character death), most still struggle with death as a mechanic. I'd even go as far as saying rouge-likes never actually solved the problem, so much as shifted the goal post as to what counts as "death". Things like perma-upgrades helped perpetuate this pursuit of artificial "progression" thats largely come to replace mastery in almost every game I think of. And its cemented the more dangerous problem of over attachment, and an unhealthy habit of tying up ones identity too heavily into a fictional character. It makes anything that happens to that character "too personal", and in some folks ends up reinforcing insecurities when it should arguably help people through it.
The few games that have TRIED to innovate on death tend to get brushed off, since permadeath is considered a hate crime in many gamer circles. But I don't see a path forward at the moment, as even dramatic deaths are treated with some degree of animosity.
Why do weaponized cantrips bother you? Most are not any more dangerous than a standard crossbow attack, but lets casters have a little more interesting thing to do at low level. I was never a fan in older editions of wizards not really feeling like a wizard unless you were dropping your valuable spell slots.
I had not thought about RoleMaster in years, but you are right.
I find, in general, the younger players in my area don't actually want to "role play", they want to play a video game RPG. Quick resets, unlocking tons of loot/gear/upgrades, and leveling up etc. These become the focus of the game (and in turn, power-gaming). The story, the characters, the events, the narrative all become secondary very quickly. Skills that don't help in combat are generally ignored or scoffed at. My fellow players were borderling incredulous when I neglected to take some gear/weapons that would have bumped my damage output.
I quit my D&D group after trying for two years (having played many other RPG's in the past and vastly preferring them). My D&D group was just...power-gaming and damage output. Encounters were just planned baddies in a room who never fled, never ran for help, never negotiated, never surrendered...just fought full speed until the very last hit-point (another issue I have with...almost all RPG's).
The game is not "I'm going to sneak behind the goblin chieftain and hold a knife to his throat..." it became "I'm going to do sneak-attack against the goblin chieftain". No story, no description just "I'm using skill X". There was never a moment anyone tried to bypass a fight, or threaten/negotiate/barter/study/spy on bad guys...just..."run in so we can level up!", etc. Because I wasn't picking skills/equipment to max out my "DPS", etc....I was essentially useless as a character.
D&D (for me) has been exceptionally underwhelming. Because of its popularity it seems to be a lowest-common-denominator. I'll stick to other games.
That sounds gross, railroady, and entirely devoid of player agency. Glad you're playing other games!
Try finding ppl who have never played. Ever. Sometimes it's easier
5E is not D&D. It's rules, mechanics, inspirations are completely different than D&D. WotC just slaps the "D&D" name on it. Try playing D&D.
@@ronniejdio9411 That's the sad thing - my initial group was new players. I didn't DM because I'm not a D&D guy...but this was how they "started" role-playing, so I don't imagine they'll change now.
Power gaming is nothing new, but the expectation once was it was a flaw of younger players. I do remember pissing off friends in 2nd ed by playing a cleric of the goddess of agriculture, and neglecting to choose Raise Dead. They only learned this once we were entering a mega-dungeon and somebody said "oh, we can go in hard and he'll just raise us" and I said "nope, sorry, can't do that." "Well, what good are you then, what can you do?" "Um, I can make your crops grow better". :)
More recently, I've found running games for 'fresh' players rather good, but I think I got lucky to find friends who are into theatrics more than many, and who expected role-playing to be different from computer games.
You had me at “BECMI”. Subscribed. Well argued, mate. Man been done with WOTC for years for these reasons you’ve outlined. My top 3 are 1. boring official adventures “bodyguard an ale shipment to the next town? Really?”, 2. weird races and classes that make no sense to me, and as you said, 3. low-level characters that are essentially supermen.
Good video - I’ve never played non-TSR D&D, so I can’t comment on WOTC’s versions of the rules. As to magic users - as the old Dragon (no 9?) article jokingly stated - Gandalf didn’t use magic beyond 3rd level spells in D&D terms - everything he did in Tolkien’s works was consistent with a 5th level magic user. That has been read to mean Gandalf was a crappy wizard, but it also suggests how powerful an Expert rules level MU can be. As to healing: the really old ‘old school’ rule was that time out of game in real life = time resting in game. That meant players would have to find safe quarters when they finished a gaming sessions, and also that this would give monsters in a dungeon time to regroup and heal as well.
I really love your content.
My main issue with 5e is just how darned powerful players are, and so early at that.
It’s the simple threat of death and the kind of pen-and-paper vs. computer gaming aspect in OSR that pushed me towards retro versions. It like comparing a book held in your hand to a pdf file, if that makes sense. I feel like the OSR is (more) tangible vs the slightly out of vision that comes with things digital. I don’t know if that even makes sense, but that’s how I see it.
Ultimately, to each their own, as long as we are having fun.
Spells have to be weaker because the characters have so many spell slots. It's no longer the broken thing you can do every now and then, it's the powerful thing you do most of the time.
really? in becmi a 20th lvl wizard has 6/5/5/5/4/4/3/2 in spell slots. In Ad&d its 5/5/5/5/5/4/3/3/2 And at lvl 36 in becmi you get 9/9/9/9/9/9/9/9/9.
@@xaxzander4633 but in 5e you can cast polymorph 15 times theoretically, or shield 30 times. And it only takes 1 hour to get all your slots back, vs in AD&D
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG if i stack wizardry rings and other things in 1st ed I could cast polymorph other or self 10 (possibly 20 with 2 rings of wizardry), times with 1 save or permanent. Tell me again how 5e is overpowered. Not to mention the hundreds of spells that don't require concentration, and its a one save or dead.
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG Also would like to say i respect your channel, although i find 5e to be a subpar game it can be fun. I'm currently running a 5e game on roll 20 and a DCC/OSE game IRL. I am subbed to almost all dnd creators on u-tube. rock on!
The content execution was always substandard to be truthful - short page count books selling for full price - when better meatier content is published and released by third party publishers - BECMI and the two AD&D editions from OG TSR is what I understand so I'm sticking with them and OSR rules equivalent alternatives.
My major gripe with 5e and Pathfinder is the superhero characters. There is no real progression just roll up a character and you are Batman or the Hulk. Though it has made for some memorable moments, it doesn't seem earned as power in earlier games seemed like you worked for it a lot more.
You hit on something there, that unearned rewards mean nothing. Earned rewards mean everything. Older editions gave players goals to aspire to and wishes them luck in the struggle, but the new edition gives players nothing to do besides get incrementally more powerful with no real purpose.
Top three gripes that drove me to my "Traditional Games" club, where I've been playing OSE Classic and Alien (we'll play anything that doesn't have a massive corporate outreach program).
1) Multiclassing often doesn't feel good. This might be the thing that 3E got all the way right but somehow they've gone backwards on it. I know, almost a non-thing in old school games but my first edition I heavily invested in was 2E and even 2E had multiclassing that felt better as a player. 5E has all sorts of foibles where 2 classes that seem like they should work together just don't and a system where you have to chase a breakpoint that is several levels away before taking your new class or you risk upsetting the tactical powergamer at the table.
2) The way "Bounded accuracy" was implemented feels bad too. Limiting how bug numbers can get is fine, but it's really weird to have a paladin trained as an itinerant priest, proficient in religion and ordained within holy orders and everything, who has a much lower bonus to their religion checks than just an average, everyday wizard or artificer who has never spent a minute thinking about religion until the DM said "Anybody who wants to make a religion check".
3) This is the big one for me, same as yours was for you. *Everything is an attack roll*. Convince someone you saw a ghost? Roll to attack with persuasion. Pick a lock? Roll to attack with your thieves' tools. Remember a fact? Roll to attack with a knowledge skill. Use an active defense against magic? Roll to attack with your saving throw. Everything is just roll a d20, add your attribute bonus, and then add your proficiency bonus from 0 to 2 times. There's really a minimal difference in dynamic between parlaying with the wicked witches who took over Oz or getting in a fight with platoon of gnolls other than the initiative order and now that I'm thinking about it there's an even bigger number 4...
4) The quantum turn and the action economy are burdensome time sinks that detract significantly from both the verisimilitude of the game universe and the fun of playing, rendering the fastest paced, most stressful part of the adventuring day into the slowest, most boring, drawn out slog where we're all asked to pretend that everything is happening at once but resolve things in a very, very, very specific stack so that orc who just took his turn is somehow at a new location at the start of the next guy's turn which happened at the same time as when the orc was at the original location and unless that orc went out of his way to interact with the next guy it may have well have never occupied any of the spaces in between the place they were at the start of the turn and the place they are now, also at the start of the turn because no time has passed yet.
1. Agree
2. Agree
3. Agree
I DM a 1st/2nd edition for my son and his friends.
I use the negative hp rule from 1st ed.
It normally takes two session for 5e players to adjust their expectations to my version of greyhawk.
The nicest is when they ask me to convert their 5e characters to 2e.
Fighter classes LOVE the % strength bonuses.
Been playing since the white box D&D. Currently playing AD&D 1E. Welcome home my new friend.
One of the reasons I like Basic Fantasy rpg for BECMI games is move from + to hit vs THAC0. That's the one old school mechanic that sticks in my craw.
It's literally just a progressive to hit modifier.
@@jasonbreaux4857 I understand what it is. I've played w/it since 88. That being said like the increasing bonus to hit better than THAC0 because it is an increasing bonus. Blame gambling, or more is better, or whatever but the bonus to hit has been an easier way on progression, especially to new RPG players, vs THAC0.
@@AdamK1095 But the thac0 is just an increasing bonus to hit. A level 5 fighter gets a +4 to hit for being a level 5 fighter. It's the same thing.
@@jasonbreaux4857 I understand mathematically it comes to the same conclusion. I am not denying that. However the perception of a bonus increasing has been a more successful and quicker concept for new players to understand. Since I started w/THAC0 in my early rpg days the concept wasn't an issue for me but as I taught and exposed the game to more new comers, as well as gain experience w/other games such as paladium fantasy & D6 star wars, I came to appreciate the +1 bonus to hit over THAC0.
@@AdamK1095 Oh, yeah, agree with you there. I actually started with WEG star wars. Great game.
While I enjoyed 5e at first, I noticed every campaign I played (as DM or player) ended up unravelling around level 5 or 6 because the game just became so complicated. Between potions, scrolls, magical gear, abilities, spells, skills, monster abilities, etc, it just started to become so overwhelming to keep everything in mind. The other thing that put us off was that the game was very difficult, but also there were a ton of safety nets, so characters would go down almost every fight but would never die. Sometimes we would be downed, healed, downed, healed, downed and healed multiple times in a fight, and that just destroyed the immersion.
And then one final point - the game just didn't feel grounded in realism any longer. I like fantasy from a human perspective, but every group I played with treated humans like they were the odd one out. "Why are you playing a human?". Everyone wanted to play anything but a human. I played with turtle people, githyanki, arraokoa, elephant people, warforged, changelings, tengu, genasi, dhampir, oh and of course a ton of tieflings - it just felt more like a video game than a believable fantasy world.
I’ve DM’d campaigns like this. It is anything but enjoyable.
People play non-human in non-5e tables all the time, that's not a 5e thing, also variant human is one of the most used races.
Beyond that, in a world like DnD, where there are a shit ton of non-human races, it shouldn't be immersion breaking to see a bunch of non-humans.
Recently bought every book for Basic Fantasy and so far love it what I’m reading.
I’ve enjoyed every addition I’ve played, becmi, 1st, 2d, 3rd, PF, 5th and had to house rule things in every edition so that I don’t rail on any edition cause they all have their warts. Play the game you and the group enjoy and have fun and maybe change it up every once and a while.
Most of these things are why I left wotc completely when they switched to 4e. I wasn't exactly sold on 3e to start off with but it was new and claimed to be d&d, and everyone had switched to playing it. From 3e on it felt like trying to be a video game, worrying over your builds and tactics over roleplay. I was tired of buying the books anyway and still had all my BECMI books since that was the edition I tended to run while someone else mainly ran the ad&d stuff and lets face it, the two were backwards compatable as proven in the converstion section of the Rules Cyclopedia. They were basically the same game with less or more things to keep track off. So yeah we had dwarf clerics and halfling thieves at the same time as having just dwarf or halflings (that whole race as a class thing people didn't understand and still don't). So to me the game didn't need any new editions, I could have lived without 3e or the ones after it just fine and never missed a game night because frankly now, most of my other old table crew have given up on the hasbro ers and returned to roots as well. So as I joke with them now, the last twenty years has been a waste of time, TSR made the game we all loved most, not hasbro. I hope more go back to it, leave hasbro and that ogl nonsense behind you.
Good, clear points. One of my house rules is that hitting 0 HP, no matter how briefly, causes 2 levels of exhaustion. This immediately hinders anyone who tries to "get right back up", and going down multiple times in a battle becomes terrifying (because death due to level 6 exhaustion bypasses the death saves).
Great video, BECMI! Intuitively I felt that there's something off about 5e for a long time, and love hearing explicit examples. I'd love to see more of these kind of videos
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thank you for expressing this so succinctly. Where I like the 5e cantrips idea where a spellcaster always has some sort of spell to call on, the shorter durations introduced in 3.5 onwards as well as in other game systems (Savage Worlds comes to immediate mind), takes away the strategic and long-term planning magic used to emphasize. I find I tend to put house rules in place that mimic the BECMI style, although I am partial to the extended spell lists offered in AD&D or GURPS in order to really open up the creative options of the players.
Almost agree. There is really only 1 sticking point:
Healing: While 5E healing is no bueno, healing 2HP (or 1d4, whatever)/resting day or just 1 HP/active day is also no good. This means that characters later in their adventuring careers take longer to heal, and secondly that those with smaller hit dice (wizards, thieves) will heal to 100% effectiveness faster than the warrior types. I haven't really thought of a good solution that works unilaterally without crashing into how short rest/long rest works (which, as I said before, I agree with you, it sucks). The closest I can get is being OK with older, more seasoned adventurers taking longer to rest and saying you regain 1HD/day of rest and 0.5 HD/active day (roll the die, divide by two, round down). I similarly think the efficacy of Cure Wounds spells should bend toward the cured's HD rather than a flat d8, because casting that on a Wizard cures up to 2 HD of damage while the same cast on a Fighter cures up to 0.8 HD of damage (using AD&D numbers throughout here).
Things that bothered me about 5E: The careless disregard of all math. For starters, Advantage and Disadvantage are just lazy and eliminate the ability to easily discern risk in a roll. D&D is not programming, lazier is not always better.
HP Bloat, another careless disregard of math. Falsely extending combat by simply giving all the monsters x2 or x3 or x4 or x5 or x6 HPs. This is not an exaggeration. An Adult Red Dragon has ~45 HP in AD&D1 and 256 HP in D&D5e. In fact the oldest and most powerful Red Dragon in AD&D1 has 88 HP. This bloat wasn't new by 5E but wasn't ever reversed from 3E onwards. PCs similarly end up with way too many HD to a comical level.
The Skill System: In 5E the skill system is so unbelievably pointless that it has no reason to exist. What does exist of it is often contradictory and without reason. The fact that they separated it out into Tool Proficiencies as well just muddies the waters more.
REQUIRED Subclasses: You can't just be a fighter, you need to build your character toward a subclass from the beginning to be considered "useful" or "playing the game right". Many skip this step and start at level 3, making this even more burdonsome.
Everything is Quantified by Systemics. If you play a "Champion" fighter and you want to perform a stunt, too fucking bad. Only the Battlemaster does that shit. Whatever you try to do, you're wasting your time because if it isn't in the book (and that's the Player's Handbook) you can't do it. Roll to hit and damage like the idiot you are. When your turn comes around drool and proclaim "I attack" for the 400th time. They will seriously look at you like you're trying to cheat if you aim for any creativity in combat.
The Dungeon Master Guide is Untouchable. While there are several good ideas in the 5E DMG, specifically Chapter 9 (like throwing the stupid skill system out the nearest window), this is the book nobody has read and DMs aren't allowed to implement any ideas from if they have read them. Nobody even realizes TO THIS DAY that there is an Eladrin elf subrace and full Aasimar race in the core DMG.
Feats aren't optional. The game pretends Feats are optional. There are no tables on the planet where Feats are not "optioned". Feats are one of the things that suck about WotC D&D. I hear in 6E they are no longer "optional". If they wanted Feats to really be optional they should have put them in the DMG.
Nonhumans have no flavor at all. There is no culture to Elves anymore. There's no reason they have trouble getting along with Half Orcs. They've nearly become human cultures except for the ability bonuses that were later taken away. The ability maluses were taken away in 4E and never came back.
The action economy of combat is pointless and absurd. Not quite as bad as Pathfinder 2E (from what I hear) but pretty damn bad from my experience.
Anyway I'm not done but I'm tired of talking about 5E. See you next time.
Great comment. Thank you.
Eh, there were ways to speed up healing processes in "down time" , first most DMs/house rules was that the healing, if down-time had no significant actions or events, it was generally skipped as if time passed.
Use of healing skills, medicines, and even magical healing or services during re-cooperation periods were used.
Also, mechanics never covered everything, or took precedence over good ideas, imaginative play, and creative manners to over-come situations.
It was at the core, a more well suited Player to Player interactive game. DMs were players too, just one in a special role.
Nowadays, DMs are just the human version of a video game engine.
I tended to think of the longer downtime for healing as a balance point that gave time for Wizards to work on scrolls, potions, and other items so the party has a few more options on the next foray. I think we house-ruled that CON bonuses added to the weekly hit point recovery, so in reality the fighters were recovering from wounds that would've killed the mage.
The abstract idea of hit points also means this may not just be broken bones and internal injuries, but strained muscles, pulled ligaments, localized weakness/fatigue. Warriors had a lot more to recover from physically than their finger-waggling counterparts.
hi
Any rule that speeds up combat is a good rule imo. Advantage is the only thing I kept from 5e after I dropped the system. If it's the two dice thing that bugs you, +3 is mathematically the same.
I completely agree with the gripe about long/short rests, and death saves. They make it very hard to kill anyone, and not being able to go negative means characters can keep popping back up when they should be out for the count. My biggest complaint is the increase in the number of hit points monsters have. That started in earnest in 3e, and has only gotten worse with each edition since. Of course this was necessary because they started larding characters up with increasingly powerful abilities, but the effect was to slow combats to a crawl. Now combats are tedious slogs.
Absolutely spot-on with all these, sir! Great job! Repetitious spells (Cantrips) make magic not very magical, really. They are a handy-dandy little pop-gun of damage that gets old in about 5 minutes, for DM's, and good players alike. 👍 And, well, you sorta mentioned it....sheet-based play. How is it fun to simply do only those things your sheet tells you to do or seems to prohibit you from doing? At least, that's how it feels most of the time...IMHO. Thank you, sir! 👊
I got my Red Box Christmas in 83 spent countless hours playing. We use to go to Walden Books at the mall to get the monthly issues of Dragon as they enhanced the BECMI experience. I have played many versions since but they fail in comparison to BECMI easy rules and game mechanics.
It's interesting you use mmorpg games as an example for your healing gripe because while the time frames of healing are different, there are similar complaints among players who like older games. Healing has gotten faster/become more automatic there (in mmos) too, and people have stopped having to worry about how to spend the resources they have on their journey, and only on whether or not they can survive any given encounter. It makes for a poorer adventure, I think.
Part of that mind set grew out of the problem of players becoming hoarders/loot goblins. As soon as they realized anything and everything has value conversion, abundance of resource is the key to victory. But you also have to understand that while limited resources drastically increases stakes, those stakes make it almost impossible to estimate if its ok to leave something behind, as it might be a critical resource in the long game. This is why encumbrance made sense from a game design perspective, but ends up being hated by players.
Narrowing segments to an encounter-based metric encourages players to spend their resources. But as long as resting has no impact on story, and time is an infinite resource, theres never a reason to not abuse it. You can quickly see how this would impact how adventures are made. And the only way to universally stop that, is to ensure every adventure has a time based escalation; even if its not a direct failure condition. Pacing that, even from a DM perspective, is going to be a nightmare.
All totally valid gripes. Over-reliance of skill checks over having to describe what their character does in detail is an annoyance of mine. Especially investigation checks.
I dunno what if your not smart/flavourful enough to say how you did something?
@@legofanguyvidThen the DM can walk you through on how to go about it. The problem with 5th is that it holds your hand and wants to have a roll for everything.
I just did a DNDONE survey for the newest update and some of the additional rolls they wanted to implement were just silly and took away people's ability think for themselves.
My chatacter has 20 intelligence and is smarter than Stephen Hawkinig ever was, I would like the game to reflect that.
Great over all view and totally agree :-) Great content and looking for to more moving forward
I'm with you. The main thing that drove me away is that I want to play gritty medieval fantasy, not Marvel Avengers in medieval fantasy drag. And what WotC has done with all of its editions is to remove the fantastic from the fantasy, or to turn it mundane and boring. Every adventurer is a supernatural being right out of the gate. Why wouldn't everyone be trying to train as an adventuring class? Parties tend to be half composed of monsters... it all makes suspension of disbelief very difficult, and so D&D campaigns turn into running jokes that you can't really take seriously, unless the DM really clamps down on what he allows at his table. And because the 5e gaming experience revolves around character builds now, telling a player he or she can't be that weird race or that new class is taken as tantamount to bigotry.
As an OG gamer I'm delighted that more people are becoming receptive to learning about and playing earlier editions like OD&D (0 edition), AD&D (1st edition) and the three versions of Basic D&D (Holmes Basic, Moldvay Basic/Expert (B/X) and Mentzer BECMI), as well as the sadly underappreciated Chainmail.
Bingo! 100% agree BECMI Berserker!
I have a 4th point I'd like to add: too many Hit Points in relation to weapon damage. This has made everyone a spell caster.
5e does a good job of lots of things, but these three design choices take the game away from excitement and reduce consequences - which ultimately reduces achievement.
✊
My top 3 gripes in 5e were the same as yours, we started playing Labyrinth Lord and Swords & Wizardry instead.
Hopefully OSR games and material will continue to be a thing once WizBro jumps off the cliff and takes OGL 1.0a with it.
My biggest problem with 5e is how character powers defeats play and player challenges. It's not uncommon to have a party that doesn't need light, never needs food, can never get lost and can pick up stuff and lock pick doors from afar using invisible mage hands. In old school D&D the DM has so many more tools in his toolbox. My second biggest gripe has to do with the same thing. When characters have so many powers and abilities, players seem to think that these are their only options. Everything has to have a pre-written mechaninc. Third is XP for monsters. It makes players into murdering hobos. Milestones is not a good alternative as I think it robs the players of choice.
The list could go on and on. After DM'ing 5e weekly for half a year I can comfortably say I actually don't like the game.At all. Then again, I guess I tried to shoehorn the game into something it is not. I got rid of my books (which had fallen apart already) and I don't think I'll ever play it again. Now I have my Rules Cyclopedia and my stich bound Old School Essentials and everything is just fine!
Robs the players of choice? Are you telling the party what to do to reach their milestone?
The more well hidden a milestone the better [or don't even write it down at all. The only place a pre-written milestone really belongs - imo - is in a campaign that's written in advance where stuff gets harder after the milestone.]
Yes, on top of it all 5e books had atrocious binding. Mine are just a collection of loose pages at this point.
@@priestesslucy3299 No. And that is not the point. The thing is, with a milestone it is the DM who decides when the party gets their XP or level up, With XP for gold the players decide where they want to seek out their XP.
Different flavor for different games and folks, but I vastly prefer the latter.
@@yvindheilo229 Oh, that's what this is about...
I'm not really fond of the players 'seeking out xp' at all. I'd rather organically enjoy the world and the story in the moment and let the levels come organically.
@@priestesslucy3299 Well, XP for gold is a pretty standard BECMI and older D&D-edition rule.
I'm curious how you do the leveling organically. The thing with XP for gold is that you don't need a pre written narrative and you don't need to scale encounters or environments. The dragon is there from the start. Players can seek it out whenever they want. The world is not balanced around the players. This is what makes a gaming world alive imo.
Very well argumented video, I fully agree. I'm still looking for a solution for spells and short/long rest in 5e but I might have lost sight of the easiest solution of all: go back to older (pre 3.0-3.5e) editions! 🙂
Thanks for articulating some of the aspects of 5e that have been nagging at me. Well put.
I love BECMI because, at age ten, with my first basic boxed set, I was enthralled and used to love sitting around with graph paper thinking up ways to make my little sister fight for her very existence! Update- she was and still is an epic hero.
your path is the same as mine...
I approached the 5th edition with enthusiasm only to be disappointed and returned to Becmi, but I did it with immense joy because it gave me back the desire to play and really have fun (moreover Mystara is really the best setting ever)
Honestly? As a kid I played some BECMI and 2E AD&D, but I mostly came into the game through the post-TSR new school a la 3E. My god, I missed out! After 2 decades of Wizards' filth, embracing old school in full is liberating. I'm glad I discovered your channel recently and I'm glad I too have returned for old school.
I simply could not cope with the boundlessness of the 5E system. From magic mechanics being available to most character classes at start, to the plethora of new (IMO) wacky NPC/character classes/races and their bizaarly epic backstories... I was constantly being reminded of that phrase used in Pixar's Incredibles movie, "When everyone's special, no one is." The 5E effort to immediately fuffil every player's power fantasy wish-list BORED me to tears. As a DM, the work I had to put into changing the setting to my liking (what 5E apologists will say a 5E DM is expected to do) was made extra onerous by the mountains of publications to sift through. At some point you want your players to be able to pick up the rules and utilize them on their own. But in the 5E "everything and the kitchen sink" approach, my players had to double-check with me so frequently, I may as well have just written my own book. And that is why I ecventually just gave away my stack of 5E books.
Your sentiments echo many here. It’s almost as if you need a computer to do it all for you. Oh wait!… 🤔
The one thing I thought that 4th ed did right was 'Bloodied.' It gave an different effect and set of abilities and disadvantages when you went to half hit-points.
I never played 4th, but that was the one mechanic that intrigued me.
@@becmiberserker it was a better, if not more realistic way to handle the stress of battle. One of the few things that should have made it to 5th...
My current dm played quite a bit of 4e, and I started playing on my first group's last session in 4e, and the bloodied mechanic is one thing that he has semi brought forward into 5e.
Coincidence, I just downloaded the 1980 Basic/Expert rulebooks. I will put the 1983 BECMI on my list for next month. But I cant see myself going onto the higher CMI levels anyways. Never did when I played these in the 80s either.
Remember when 9th level was considered legendary?
I agree with what you said and I will add some more beefs I have with 5e:
-gold means little in 5e, unless you really put some effort in building/running strongholds and/or you throw away the concept of "magic shops are almost non existent"
-almost anybody seems able to see in total darkness (3.5 at least had darkvision and low-light vision)
-monsters are usually underpowered if compared to PCs, expecially big solo monsters (legendary actions/resistances can help but just to a point, unless you really put some effort into them)
Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed running an 8 years long campaign with it, because the system have its pros (mostly that it gave me the opportunity to bounce back in the hobby after a long hiatus, bringing some newcomers to the hobby), but right now I'm happy running Savage Worlds in my beloved Forgotten Realms, with some tweaks to make it fell more "D&Desque". I'm also considering trying to get some old school manuals (prices can be quite intimidating, so I must look carefully), particularly the BECMI ones (the edition I played and DMed first), and running some of those old adventures from time to time.
Which thanks for sharing and those are fair points.
I have Basic Fantasy and I've been meaning to buy OSE. This whole OGL fiasco has given me the perfect excuse to just go and do it.
As far as character death is concerned, as a 5e player who puts a LOT of thought into my characters, I just can’t understand the anxiety people feel when their beloved hero dies. Actually, their reaction can lead to GM anxiety. A few months ago, I lost my druid, for whom I had some pretty big plans. After the momentary shock, I realized that: “Hey that was really cool”, because that’s what would have happened in that scenario. Sometimes heroes die.
Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea 3E holds my heart but I completely agree with dropping 5e.
I was not enjoying the game after the starter set 😂
AS&SH is easily one of the most beautifully produced retroclones out there: the art direction alone is lavish. Sadly, few RPG publishers have the deep pockets necessary to commission top-tier artists.
I agree with you 100%. started with BECMI 40 years ago and and played all editions except 4e. Some time ago, we stopped playing 5e mostly for the reasons you mentioned. I proposed 1e and 2e, but my younger players said it is too old school, so we are now playing 3.5e. Now, my players are afraid again of losing their PCs; danger is still one of the main aspects of the game, in my opinion 😊
One of my biggest gripes with 5e is that your character is super human from level one, and the progression is EXTREMELY fast. Most DMs level you up after every single session. Keep in mind that is in addition to loot and stuff. It just felt like when Bethesda gave me power armor at level 1. Yeah I guess this is nice, but I wanted to feel like I *became* a badass after hours of honing my skills, and taking losses while still getting back up after. The way 5e is, I get the feeling that everything is just handed to me, there is no risk on my part. I like BECMI because all your class abilities are granted at level 1, and if you survive, you get better at *those* things, rather than getting new abilities every session. Also, in BECMI, Fighter feels like a class that's worth playing, because weapon skills/proficiency are actually useful. Every time I made a 5e fighter concept, I realized I should just play Cleric or Rogue, or Wizard even. In 5e, an Elven Wizard with no combat spells has just as much combat prowess as a Fighter in Melee, it's kind of strange honestly.
Wow you still read you comments on 9 month old videos? I'm honored
Been wanting to try some OSR, even before the "Bad Times" I have started to feel the weight of 5e's simplicity for the sake of combat.
In one campaign, the fighter got an extremely powerful sword from a Beholder, with the downside that he was also cursed fo die in 30 days... by day 23, the curse was broken and he still has the powerful sword (that turned out to not be necessary, but that is part of the plot)
In another campaign, we have been poisoned and will die in 14 days if we don't get the antidote, unless we go on a fetch quest... we're on day 4 and already on the way back. My wizard has five scrolls and only managed to copy one.
I love using the attack matrix. I always have a matrix for melee and missile with all modifiers already added in. No math. It's amazing. I don't see it as taking longer in any way compared to AAC which I've played a lot as well. Players look at their sheet and say what AC they hit. That's it. DM already knows the players AC so there's this nice veil that keeps what you need to roll shrouded in mystery. I think it's great. Awesome video by the way.
I have to agree with you. Never had a problem with THAC0, but you have to say that quietly these days. Thanks for commenting.
Great video. I just got into OSE because I wanted to get into OSR for a while and OGL was the last straw for me. I think one big thing which is related to the rest issue is the lack of recourse management. Little reason to bring torches (Light cantrips or DV), little reason to use explorers pack. No real reason to gather rations or count them. You can just use goodberry to fix any problems.
Yup. It’s the RPG expression of “There’s an app for that!”
Thanks for commenting.
“No resting exploitation in my own TTRPG”
*Updated my journal*
Excellent!
Many thanks!
Never heard of BECMI before. Now to check out your video about it. I started playing 2nd ed in the 90's and have been sick and tired of 5e for the past few years. Been looking into ICRPG, EZD6, and Monster of the week(though it isn't medieval fantasy). DMing, I hate how much 5e just feels like I am running people through wargaming. And all anyone cares about is did I level up, or their backstory is I am searching for magic items, where are my magic items. It's exhausting.
5e is geared to action and less downtime. It seems good but it takes so much away especially risk.
You'd love Pathfinder 2e then. It fixes the constant need for long rest by making resting at night only heal a small amount of hit points (sort of like a short rest) and allows PCs trained in medicine to heal another PC with a healers kit (though you can only recieve this type of healing once per hour) and it takes 10 minutes to execute. It allows for a lot more action and there's no loss of risk.
ALL 5 BECMI box sets are available as free PDFs throughout the Internet right now (Oct. 2023). Never been a better time to start playing D&D the old school way than now.
One of 5e's flaws that really irks me is the skill system, or rather, the lack thereof.
The "proficient or not" leaves too little room for nuance, and reflecting your side skills mechanically. Something that the open-ended BECMI skill system and even 3.5 handled much better.
Yes, skills choices and options when leveling up is the thing that is missing in 5e
Just stumbled across your channel! FOLLOWED and LIKED! OLD school player, getting BACK into OSE! Just played last weekend, fell back in love with it all! It was like.... kissing my first girl! A rush of great memories! AND you are right... while reading through the spells.... I kept saying.... "HOLY CRAP, I FORGOT HOW GREAT THESE ARE!" Thanks for the video, looking forward to more!
Welcome aboard!
That is very sensible reasoning.
My interest in D&D started as an alternative and inspiration to my primary system back in 84 with the basic box. And D&D did not make it to my table often.
Still, my primary system also suffered from the video game idea. Which was in fact a thing, the designers wanted the RPGs to be more like video games, often because the companies planned to or did publish games and they planned to "monetize" their players in the same way Blizzard did with WoW, at least they hoped so. But, as I always say, a video game is no and can never be an RPG.
a few months ago, I put my Mystara 5e campaign on hiatus, we got to the isle of dread, but I was getting burnt out with 5e rules and I have a handful of new players. while they enjoyed it, there were a lot of moments where, the game came to a halt to find spells, or remember they have spell slots, and the players kind of rush through some big bads which I don't mind they enjoyed it. I intentionally slowed down exp gains, but at the same time, I and the players had to do a lot of bookkeeping which I'm like, this sucks, I'm not as excited to even start the Isle of Dread proper, we got to the island and I was done. when I suggested we go to BECMI, the majority of the players were interested, and I helped them make their characters and they were like, this is awesome! less things on the character sheet to worry about and we have a few characters that can cast spells, so it all worked out. I'm going to run my first BECMI session in the coming month and I'm excited to play dnd again!
I absolutely love the BECMI edition of D&D. It is, after all the one I got started in. When the other editions showed up, my human instinct for the next bright and shiny thing took hold as I purchased, played for a while and went back to BECMI. 3.5 had the biggest hold of me as I adored the customization aspect. 5e was nice for a bit with its ease of play but then everyone started making characters like sentient blobs and playing horses as characters. That’s what turned me away. I guess it was the type the game started attracting. We were heroes (or n’er do wells in some cases) of adventure not comedy bits. I like the strict, decisive rules and the cut to the bone (figuratively and vicariously literal) aspect of combat. When you can just survive, restart and go it takes something from the game. Maybe it’s the “everyone gets a trophy” world we are struggling not to become. Sorry for the soapbox but that’s my take. Having said that, I do think it is still a game and should be played however anyone wants to play it. Your fun is your fun. When you have to put the word “sentient” in front of your race, it’s just not my fun.
What made me stop play 5e is the combat, I had a session that the combat drag out to 5 hours... Of course my players where thrill of excitement after the combat (and it wasn't the final boss of the campaign not even a minor boss, just grunts) but it made me had a burn out of D&D.
Edit: and the reasons you stated in the video are also the reason why I don't like Featfinder ( Pathfinder 2e)
Guilty as charged... I play Clerics in two 5e games, and I never heal anyone before they fall to zero.
It is just much more effective to re-up a fallen guy than to give someone 8 hp right before he gets wounded for 20 again.
Your 3 Reasons are absolutely spot on.
I mainly play OSE or 2E these days. When I DM OSE, I roll a single death "save" on a table which can lead to instant death at one end, unconscious for X rounds and 1HP on the other. In the middle are serious wounds that can lead to maiming, stat losses that take months to heal naturally or require magical spells (restoration) or are permanent. It's worked out well in that deaths are about 16% likely outright but even if you don't "die" your character is likely to be impacted in some way for months or longer.
I always had a problem with spells in 5e because they didn't feel grounded in the world. I agree that magic should be more powerful, however I also want to see that magic is something to strive for and hunt down and grow in your own way as you become a better caster. I don't like useless early spells become the further you get in levels. Why not grow your spell with you by gathering resources you can find in the wild.
To this end I feel like the whole spell slot system no longer works. You have two opposing problems you swing between with trying to make spells more powerful. If you level the spell itself, its just a bad source of power creep, as number of dice or amounts it can affect can substantially swing the power level of any given spell. At the other end is the resource mechanics.
If spells or spell use is too few, they need to make very valuable when use. But the down shot is modern players tend to hoard things, which encourages meta gaming. However, too easy or cheap to use, and theres NEVER a reason not to use it when its an option. To even start addressing this, there needs to be a decision on if spells should be a standard weapon, a strategic tool, or a show stopper.
I'm more of the mind set that if its a turned based game, counter picks and effects are generally the best option for player agency. But information flow is a problem. Video games tend to project attacks, so players have some way of knowing when they can run a counter pick. Thats not really an option in most TTRPGs, given they either use round robin or blind picks to progress combat.
Since thats not really a good option, I would think changing the resource system is the way forward. Flat resources like mana are too simple, and too easy to recreate the problem, but with more skill spamming. Exhaustion mechanics are conceptually good on paper; but they're really cumbersome in practice.
Its a tough thing to crack.
I grew up playing BECMI. Also some AD&D. Loved the grit & grind. I've played 5e with friends, but it took a long time to "forgive" the flaws they put into the game. Now, I game using Pathfinder 1e. Fantastic!!!
I’ve admitted a number of times that I have a soft spot for 3.5/Pathfinder 1e.
I didn't even make it to 5th edition! I tried playing 3rd edition (I guess 3.5), didn't care for it, went back to my AD&D (1st or 2nd edition, it didn't matter), and never tried any subsequent editions. I also own all the BECMI material and would be perfectly happy to play a campaign of that if I came into a group of such an interest. I did start with BECMI and moved to 1st edition AD&D after a while. Had some good fun with BECMI back in the day.
I remember the first Intellivision Dungeons and Dragons game. If your adventurer was wounded, you had to take him all the way back to home to heal. Or you could risk pushing through...
I had that game!
Same! Was my absolute favorite!
And no way to save the game. Plus you were limited in the number of arrows you carried.
Overall good points but I do think a death save is important but it is overdone in 5e.
Personally I would prefer if you go below 0 every combat round the DM rolls 1D6 and adds it to the total of negative hitpoints for damages total. If it goes over your Con score before first aid can be applied your dead.
That was wild. All valid points, yet my main gripe with 5e didn't make the cut, that of character creation being a huge time consuming thing, and essential because of how much there is a lean toward 'optimization.' I've long appreciated games that are faster playing, and having such an important part taking place solo instead of altogether wasn't for me. I'd much rather roll out the stats, pick a class and jump in.
I started playing 5E a few months back. The group I'm in meet once a week and are veterans of Pathfinder 1st edition and 3.5. Myself had started with Adv DnD 1st ed. in the 80s. Prior to the current group, I mostly continued to play Adv. DnD with 3.5 here and there. The current game group agreed during session zero, 0 hp is death. Play is resource driven. No full hp every full rest but we do roll hit die. Environmental factors play. In the Duergar city of Gracklstugh my character got sick (lost a point of constitution). Of course there is a level of maturity in this style of play. With these factors in place, our DM called our party the most careful and thought out group he DMed. Most groups he DMed and played with were charging in rooms like bulls attacking just about everyone. 5E can be enjoyed better with specifics on the game play.
Interesting and thought provoking, thank you! I have nothing against 5e, nothing I can say 'this doesn't work for me', I just find it all too slow, too presciptive, not enough narrative. I like the way OSR rule sets seem to allow the story to go on, no matter what happens. That said, on the adventure side (as distinct from the rules), I think there is much the new material has evolved, which is really good and helps bring the game/story to life.
My switch was from dnd to Cypher System. I also have Dungeon Crawl Classics and Dungeon World at the ready
5e feels like its getting the expectation of not telling the player No. I had a Druid player that got great detail out of his nature checks. Cleric that I gave details for his religion checks on diplomacy of saying their orders are similar or the same. A fighter that kept getting upset because his sheet was exactly on a website for optimized build but never any RP or though of the character into it. Just wanted high numbers and its a Nat 20 so you have to let me succeed.
The 5e DMG has the optional rule if Gritty Healing. A short rest is 8 hours, a long rest is a week. I always run old school when I can, but if I have a group that insists upon 5e, I use Gritty Healing. It's not homebrew, it's in a core book, and if they argue that it's an optional rule, counter that feats and multiclassing are optional too.
I wish they would rerelease the boxed sets!
I got the Rules Cyclopedia as print on demand, but the amazing tutorial and sample adventures are only digital.
Mentzer basic is a great product!
I've changed the concentration mechanic to work such that if the target fails the initial save then as long as the caster concentrates on the spell the target gets no further saves. Only when concentration is broken does the target start getting to save but the spell remains in effect until they successfully save.
That's a pretty cool change, actually makes concentration spells worth using.
All very solid points!
When I played 2ed various class & race books were popping up. While interesting in the variations they offered they started moving the game in a, then, gimmicky direction. The Skills & Powers book was WoTC's first move into what because 5e.
Too much point & click " heroic" moment via skills & not enough earned heroics via smarts and lucky rolls... 😑
I'm currently in a 2nd edition game and the learning curve for some of younger players, or I should say unlearned, was rough. Not being able to chain multiple spells in a single turn was a big one for one of them. I get not having all the options is tough to process but when you have to think about how much resources you have and that sometimes you really need to run away... they are all mostly good now. I had the same unissued but in reverse when I played 5th. The group kept being frustrated that I saved spells and held back, apparently I wasn't getting the rest mechanic.
Hit points at abstractions for avoiding damage through training and stamina is a much more realistic system than "how many times you can be run through with a sword", so the changes to hit points and healing are much better, actually
For me the biggest problem is the campaign. In 5e you have a long narrative goal, which will often take a year or two to play through. When players miss sessions they are likely to be carried around bathed in plot armour because no one wants to ring the player and say oops we killed your character and narritively it gets really contrived when characters disappear and reappear randomly between sessions. Most people use milestone levelling because otherwise players kill everything to get experience but then everyone levels at the same time regardless of how many play sessions they turned up for.
In old school you turned up to get that gold. Gold was worth something. Getting into the next room was important to get more gold so sessions were focused and people wanted to keep playing. Wandering monsters outside of their lairs were to be avoided, so you had more reason to explore and stealth. Why risk your health fighting an orc patrol? Distract them, avoid them, or talk to them, were nearly always better options.
Also campaigns put a lot of pressure on DMs to manage a long ongoing narrative. It's less a game and more storytelling but often not telling the story of the player characters they are just working through a plot the dm or campaign book has set out. They are there for the ride.
Honestly, I don’t blame you. There’s so many great features left behind by the new age game design that 4 and 5E that it really feels like a strange convoluted board game at times.
I long for the simpler days of getting a game ready in minutes and making fun short campaigns with people laughing as their character’s fate truly hung in the balance.
It was exciting to not worry about my players being attached to character A or B.
Think I’ll be putting together a 2E or 1E campaign when I get the chance 😂
I completely agree about every point. Personally I like the 3e mechanics of natural healing and death. Recover 1 hp per level per day, and if you hit -10 you're dead. It's a good middle ground between AD&D's realism and the 5e power fantasy.
I don't think the Hold family of spells ever gets much use outside of OSR because it is literally useless against the enemies you would want to use it on (what is this, Final Fantasy?).
I prefer descending AC for the same reason I prefer murder mysteries to NOT give away who the murderer is until the end. Up front obvious stuff like ascending AC is not mysterious.
Furthermore, things that are smaller are more difficult to hit, thus descending AC is logical.
If a mechanic has math so complicated you have to check a table, it's not a good mechanic. Having AC work the same as any other DC makes far more sense mecanic wise.
5e also leaned toward computer game mechanics and with the current direction of the company it was by design to go into computer games over tabletop gaming.
Good point about spells.
My 2c. After running 5e for 8 years over 10 campaigns which averaged about 8-12 months each and all were from level 1 to 20+ - I had to put my foot down and shift the game to an OSR flavor. The biggest problem with 5e is that it burns DMs out after level 8ish and definitly after level 10+. No matter how much you house rule it to compensate, the engine is broken at those levels and it becomes a super-hero game. And as I told my players - I don't want to run a super-hero game, I want to run D&D.
I ended up going with OSE Advanced, specifically Dolmenwood. The reason for this is that the biggest complaint/resistance to playing straight BECMI or other Basic ruleset is that my 5e players want some class abilities (so Basic almost has zero so that was a no go, 1e seemed to be the sweet spot) and Dolmenwood, so far, has hit that sweet spot with some of the more modern concessions to stuff like ascending AC. I had to make this compromise since I had players who had only ever played 5e and just didnt understand that a lot of OSR type progression is gear based. Its like they are insecure about getting the gear they "need".
Either way, its been a much more enjoyable experience for me as the DM (at least!) switching to something that is way less DM intensive.
For context I have been playing D&D since 1980 and generally moved with editions (generally, though I skipped both 2e and 4e after giving both a go). I have nearly always been the DM as well.
Liked reading this. Good luck with your game and thanks for watching.
I got off the Edition treadmill at 3.5. That said, I was never satisfied with the 3.5 death and dying rules--so I infused it with a nasty twist inspired by 1E. What follows is a brief summary.
If a PC goes to 0 hp or less (dropping 1 hp/round till dead at -10) and is brought back up to 1 hp (regardless of how), you are in a condition I created called "disabled". Being disabled has a duration of 24 hours, where the PC cannot take any offensive action or cast, and can only move at half normal speed at best. Any exertion instantly drops the PC back down to 0 hp and the clock to -10 starts all over again. Healing checks and spells do NOT heal beyond the 1 hp the PC is restricted to, but instead chip away at the disablement duration.
The idea is to force the party into retreat if even one PC is downed, find a safe harbor, and regroup. It cranks up the tension, and hopefully spurs some tactical/strategic thinking for the inevitable rematch (or retreat, as the situation warrants).
Your reasons are some of the reasons why I decided to focus more on adventures in middle-earth. Player characters have to think about what they're doing more than in vanilla 5th edition
Preach brother!
What attracts me to the OSR is an embrace of randomness, cheap life, and emergent storytelling.
What annoys me about 5e is the lack of DM assistance, the bag of HP monsters, and the utter punt on explaining how individual spells ought to work.
Can you describe DM assistance in TSR D&D?
@@priestesslucy3299 Yeah....morale and reaction rules. Tables to generate dungeons on the fly. Much faster combat resolution. Details in the monster manual descriptions about monster society and culture so you have something to go on when you wing it. Explicit instructions to do whatever you want to change the system.... the dungeon master adjudicates the game and controls it. Depth and nuance to the gameplay. A modular game design that isn't so interconnected that the whole thing breaks when you tweak one thing, and that doesn't easily break with the One True Build characters stressing the weak points of the game. Emergent gameplay supported by high variance dice mechanics. Rules for things other than combat, e.g. strongholds and army battles and worldbuilding. In later editions if you're not in a combat encounter, the rules pretty much say FU, why U not grinding combat for hours! I can wing BECMI games literally on the fly with no preparation for many reasons but foremost it's very clear how tough and capable the monsters are....for later editions not so much since you have to F around with gimmicky feat tree builds and whatever to have any chance of manipulating the combat outcomes to be fun challenges that make the players feel the thrills without actually being in danger of a TPK that will derail and end the game. Oh, and people harsh on race as class but they totally fail to understand that what it does is establish clear ROLES for your character....your JOB as a fighter is to tank and block the monsters, your JOB as a wizard is to wait until the right moment where your one spell changes the combat situation and saves the day, the thief's job is to deal with locks and traps and take some pot shots with a ranged weapon. Modern D&D players expect their random collection of useless snowflake characters with no synergy in the party to function as an adventuring group...but it doesn't work that way. You need characters that fill the classic roles because dungeon delving is a game of skill... not a game of more plusses wins.
What I did to Healing and Natural Healing regarding this when I ran a City Campaing where Time is important as well as resources.
Potions: They are used as a bonus action, or a standard action if administrated to another person.
They use Health Dice that you have. Roll if in combat, full dice if in a rest (any) and NEED potions for that. Magic healing work as it is. First aid regains 1 HD in a short rest (only in one short rest before a long rest can recover HD with first aid) or 2 each long rest.
Healing dice: They aren't used willingly in any rest, must be used as stated with natural healing or potions.
Rest: Introducing COMPLETE rest, making it rest with light activity for a week, there you regain spent HD equal to your Proficiency bonus.
Long rest: IF not healing, recover half prof in HD round down.
Short rest: no recover.
Totally agree with Magic, Magic is the bend of reality, and reality isn't trying to be balanced by any chance when weaving the mist of magic to create any effect.
2AD&D for me was (and is) the best edition of D&D there it is.
You are hero!