Hi Andrew. I can relate to your story. Have you looked into the Taubman approach to piano technique? If not visit the Golandsky Institute website. Also look at Thomas Mark’s book What Every Pianist Needs to Know about the Body if you don’t know it. Andrew
@@Sitbon08 ... the information given here is better than changing your technique ... for example see Trifonov, does he use rotation from the arm to play all the notes? ... The recommendation of T. Mark book is good, it's good to know about anatomy :) had a great time reading it ... but the information given here is much better than changing your technique, especially for one which does not allow you to play virtuoso playing.
Hello everyone, happy new year, well i got my left arm surgery, i stayed 4 days in hospital with a lot of pain, to breathe, eat, laugh, and cough. My arm went numb for 7 hours before I could move my hand. After I got out of the hospital i started playing a lot. With pain but trying to keep my routine because I have some concertos to do in July. I started slowly with bach I couldn’t play much, but after 6 days I was playing Rachmaninoff piano concerto 2 with no problem! I am very happy with the result of my left arm, now I’m waiting for my right arm surgery that its on January 27.
@@Hugo-ub5bj how are you doing today, Hugo? And if I may ask, what specific condition did you get surgery in your arms for? I'm not nearly as skilled or dedicated but I'm starting to learn chopin etudes and I'm improving very quickly. But my fingers hurt badly and I've stoped
So glad to find your channel!! I'm a self taught low-medium level piano player. I picked up piano after stopping it for two decades, now have kept playing for another two decades. I use Schubert's G flat major impromptu as warm-up for past 18 years. 16 months ago I developed tendinosis on my right wrist along my R5 finger, as the melody of G flat major is largely played by R5. I've gone thro all types of treatment except PRP. I can still play now and the pain has reduced from level 10 to 3, after months of rest. Now the right wrist and forearm become stiff and aching. I did have 1 corticosteroid shot 8 months ago. Love to hear your advice about wrist care without stoping playing. Thanks much!
I think one of the biggest factors in treating these issues and continuing to play without long-term "resting, hoping and waiting" has to do with releasing the buildup of adhesions in the finger tendon synovial sheath areas of the lower forearm / wrist area (with advanced massage techniques) Here's my article on Piano-Related Injuries: tenniselbowclassroom.com/treatments/piano-related-injuries/
The impromptu you mentionned is not supposed to be challenging the body in any way. So, it seems to be a technical problem (relaxation, using the weight), which needs to be solved too, or your injuries will stay or come back. Often 3-5 days full rest can help significantly for minor injuries or simple muscle recovery, but indeed resting too long and anti-inflamatory treatments are a bad ideas. For the warm-up I advise you to take your time (I need about 1 hour warm-up, pro level) and use more complete playing, ie., using more all the fingers, and with better left-right hands balance. You need your left hand too, and the impromptu use it barely.
I share a lot of his story, pianist, started fine, 3 years later, (around 2018-19) pain in the thumbs, later in the pinkies, in the palm as well, and at the end also in the wrist. I did calistenics for one and a half years, then a half year in the gym and pain was terrible. I did piano and calistenics at the same time. I also have hyper-flexibility and double joints (in the hand), or that's what I think the name is, basically my last falanx of all the fingers can bend in both directions, specially my thumb. I think this is very bad for piano and sports. Both my passions :( At that time I didn't know why the pain. I had a terrible deppression, I had to stop lifting and I coincidentally could't play piano regularly for 1 year. The pain slowly went away, meanwhile I went to doctors, I had to wait 6 months to get citated to the cardiologyst to discard possible cardiopathies, to the genetist (but this was cancelled), I went to quiropractics, traumatologyst (who said I was serotonin defiency) but didn0t help at all... So a year later I was so depressed and demotivated in life that I lost contact with my friends (this was during china global thing), next year I quited my university. Next summer I started recovering my sanity and started eating healthy, more than ever, started playing piano seriously again, and I fell into the inflamation speech. Then 1 year later (2023) I started calisthenics again, with less intensity, and 3 months ago (February 2024) started going to a gym 4 times a week... 1 week ago my thumbs started hurting again, so I beg you, what should I do? I've seen the whole interview, the things I learnt are to try to help the body heal, don't get rid of inflamation, to help blood flow, to warm my hands with water, to learn how to massage them (I need help with this one), and to not take anti-inflamatories. And that I need to break down the adhesions (I don't know how either :( , or where to look for). Should I stop playing the piano until I'm healed? Thank you thank you, this was a very relieving cup of hope to find your channel, and this pianist talking about something I tought I was the only one dealing with.
Thank you both for this video. I am a Veena player (Indian stringed instrument) and doctor myself and have recently subscribed to and started using your Golfers elbow videos. I would love to know whether you have anything on preventing carpal tunnel and shoulder injuries specifically for musicians. I get the occasional twinge in both my wrist and shoulder and as you say, prevention is better than cure! I think there would be many a musician who would be grateful for a guided step by step course on upper limb strengthening if that is something you might consider!
Thank you for signing up for my program, Pavithra! And for sending me a message from my site. I hope you got my email reply. I don't check CZcams comments as often.
49:00 there is a huge misunderstanding: warmup is not about having warm tissues, but to have the physiology started, in particular the aerobic glycolyse. Allen, why did not you react to that ?
I get that but heat seems to be very helpful when someone already has a tendon problem and Andrew was describing his protocol, which he felt worked for him and apparently wanted to recommend. Yes, "warming up" is really about motion and gradually activating physiological processes to prepare ones tissues for greater load, intensity or duration, but physical heat can be helpful for some people who have tendon issues.
I am very worried now because I saw a physiotherapist who Was supposed to treat my tennis elbow and he scraped my arm like crazy using a metal plate and after the session my arm got really swollen and the painful and it wouldn't go away. Is it possible that he caused a tear in my tendon? Since the tendon is already injured.
I'm really sorry to hear that happened, Josie. Those 'Instrument Assisted Soft Tissue Manipulation' tools and techniques can easily be performed too aggressively. Here's my article about them: tenniselbowclassroom.com/treatments/graston-iastm/ I wouldn't worry too much about a tear at this point. I think the risk is very low that this would cause a tear. Based on all the swelling, it does sound like it was too aggressive for you and that there might be some minor muscle damage - but that should heal well. And the treatment might do some good in the long run - but for now, it sounds like it has really flared your Tennis Elbow up. I hope it calms down soon.
I don't think we have enough evidence to know how long PRP takes - or if it helps a significant percentage of the time, so, no, I didn't factor that in.
In my opinion, the only efficient way to break up / release adhesions is some form of Massage Therapy. Any method is better than nothing - but some methods work better than others. Here's my article and video on my site about the 3 best methods specifically for Golfer's and Tennis Elbow: tenniselbowclassroom.com/treatments/best-tennis-elbow-self-massage-techniques/
@@TennisElbowClassroom I'm feeling this very much and I thank you for instructing on this in your articles Allen. It is very sore but doing a cross massage for a few minutes on one section after heat and stretching really seems to be helping.
51:10 Optimal diet ? Allen you don't know what the optimal diet is ? Vegan, non acid, with little to no processed food. Milk products are acidifying and promoting inflammation, animal and animal products are also to ban for the same reasons. Fruit juices and tomatoes are also to avoid.
I eat that way myself, but I don't believe I know what the optimal diet is for anyone else. I'm not convinced it's even vegan. That's just how I eat. I do believe there are MANY generally bad food choices, like, as you mentioned, processed food in general. High Fructose Corn Syrup. Sugar, in general. Yes, fruit juices, especially if not fresh squeezed.
Thanks so much for your help Allen! Was a pleasure to do this with you, and I hope it can help others who are suffering with injuries.
Thank you, too, Andrew. It was a pleasure!
inspiring story & thanks to both for tons of important info
Hi Andrew. I can relate to your story. Have you looked into the Taubman approach to piano technique? If not visit the Golandsky Institute website. Also look at Thomas Mark’s book What Every Pianist Needs to Know about the Body if you don’t know it. Andrew
@@Sitbon08 ... the information given here is better than changing your technique ... for example see Trifonov, does he use rotation from the arm to play all the notes? ...
The recommendation of T. Mark book is good, it's good to know about anatomy :) had a great time reading it ... but the information given here is much better than changing your technique, especially for one which does not allow you to play virtuoso playing.
@andrew Are you familiar with the Taubman method? And do you apply elements of that in your playing?
Thanks you soo much, I’ll be in surgery for the next month, and this makes me less scared, hope i can play again Liszt.
I hope your surgery went well and you're on your way to recovery, Hugo!
Hi Hugo let us know how the surgery went. Did you have pain in one elbow or in both ?
Hello everyone, happy new year, well i got my left arm surgery, i stayed 4 days in hospital with a lot of pain, to breathe, eat, laugh, and cough. My arm went numb for 7 hours before I could move my hand. After I got out of the hospital i started playing a lot. With pain but trying to keep my routine because I have some concertos to do in July. I started slowly with bach I couldn’t play much, but after 6 days I was playing Rachmaninoff piano concerto 2 with no problem! I am very happy with the result of my left arm, now I’m waiting for my right arm surgery that its on January 27.
@@Hugo-ub5bj how are you doing today, Hugo? And if I may ask, what specific condition did you get surgery in your arms for? I'm not nearly as skilled or dedicated but I'm starting to learn chopin etudes and I'm improving very quickly. But my fingers hurt badly and I've stoped
So glad to find your channel!! I'm a self taught low-medium level piano player. I picked up piano after stopping it for two decades, now have kept playing for another two decades. I use Schubert's G flat major impromptu as warm-up for past 18 years. 16 months ago I developed tendinosis on my right wrist along my R5 finger, as the melody of G flat major is largely played by R5. I've gone thro all types of treatment except PRP. I can still play now and the pain has reduced from level 10 to 3, after months of rest. Now the right wrist and forearm become stiff and aching. I did have 1 corticosteroid shot 8 months ago. Love to hear your advice about wrist care without stoping playing. Thanks much!
I think one of the biggest factors in treating these issues and continuing to play without long-term "resting, hoping and waiting" has to do with releasing the buildup of adhesions in the finger tendon synovial sheath areas of the lower forearm / wrist area (with advanced massage techniques)
Here's my article on Piano-Related Injuries: tenniselbowclassroom.com/treatments/piano-related-injuries/
The impromptu you mentionned is not supposed to be challenging the body in any way. So, it seems to be a technical problem (relaxation, using the weight), which needs to be solved too, or your injuries will stay or come back. Often 3-5 days full rest can help significantly for minor injuries or simple muscle recovery, but indeed resting too long and anti-inflamatory treatments are a bad ideas.
For the warm-up I advise you to take your time (I need about 1 hour warm-up, pro level) and use more complete playing, ie., using more all the fingers, and with better left-right hands balance. You need your left hand too, and the impromptu use it barely.
I share a lot of his story, pianist, started fine, 3 years later, (around 2018-19) pain in the thumbs, later in the pinkies, in the palm as well, and at the end also in the wrist. I did calistenics for one and a half years, then a half year in the gym and pain was terrible. I did piano and calistenics at the same time. I also have hyper-flexibility and double joints (in the hand), or that's what I think the name is, basically my last falanx of all the fingers can bend in both directions, specially my thumb. I think this is very bad for piano and sports. Both my passions :(
At that time I didn't know why the pain. I had a terrible deppression, I had to stop lifting and I coincidentally could't play piano regularly for 1 year. The pain slowly went away, meanwhile I went to doctors, I had to wait 6 months to get citated to the cardiologyst to discard possible cardiopathies, to the genetist (but this was cancelled), I went to quiropractics, traumatologyst (who said I was serotonin defiency) but didn0t help at all...
So a year later I was so depressed and demotivated in life that I lost contact with my friends (this was during china global thing), next year I quited my university. Next summer I started recovering my sanity and started eating healthy, more than ever, started playing piano seriously again, and I fell into the inflamation speech.
Then 1 year later (2023) I started calisthenics again, with less intensity, and 3 months ago (February 2024) started going to a gym 4 times a week...
1 week ago my thumbs started hurting again, so I beg you, what should I do? I've seen the whole interview, the things I learnt are to try to help the body heal, don't get rid of inflamation, to help blood flow, to warm my hands with water, to learn how to massage them (I need help with this one), and to not take anti-inflamatories. And that I need to break down the adhesions (I don't know how either :( , or where to look for). Should I stop playing the piano until I'm healed? Thank you thank you, this was a very relieving cup of hope to find your channel, and this pianist talking about something I tought I was the only one dealing with.
I had problems at the shoulder, and could not be solved with medecine for months. I solved it with Yoga practice, ie., reinforcement and stretching.
Awesome!
Thank you both for this video. I am a Veena player (Indian stringed instrument) and doctor myself and have recently subscribed to and started using your Golfers elbow videos. I would love to know whether you have anything on preventing carpal tunnel and shoulder injuries specifically for musicians. I get the occasional twinge in both my wrist and shoulder and as you say, prevention is better than cure! I think there would be many a musician who would be grateful for a guided step by step course on upper limb strengthening if that is something you might consider!
Thank you for signing up for my program, Pavithra! And for sending me a message from my site. I hope you got my email reply. I don't check CZcams comments as often.
49:00 there is a huge misunderstanding: warmup is not about having warm tissues, but to have the physiology started, in particular the aerobic glycolyse. Allen, why did not you react to that ?
How does one do this? Slow warm ups on the piano?
@@joshuagarcia2642 Anything not too fast and not too strong, on piano or not. Like a progressive wake up.
I get that but heat seems to be very helpful when someone already has a tendon problem and Andrew was describing his protocol, which he felt worked for him and apparently wanted to recommend.
Yes, "warming up" is really about motion and gradually activating physiological processes to prepare ones tissues for greater load, intensity or duration, but physical heat can be helpful for some people who have tendon issues.
Very interesting
I am very worried now because I saw a physiotherapist who Was supposed to treat my tennis elbow and he scraped my arm like crazy using a metal plate and after the session my arm got really swollen and the painful and it wouldn't go away. Is it possible that he caused a tear in my tendon? Since the tendon is already injured.
I'm really sorry to hear that happened, Josie. Those 'Instrument Assisted Soft Tissue Manipulation' tools and techniques can easily be performed too aggressively. Here's my article about them:
tenniselbowclassroom.com/treatments/graston-iastm/
I wouldn't worry too much about a tear at this point. I think the risk is very low that this would cause a tear.
Based on all the swelling, it does sound like it was too aggressive for you and that there might be some minor muscle damage - but that should heal well.
And the treatment might do some good in the long run - but for now, it sounds like it has really flared your Tennis Elbow up. I hope it calms down soon.
PRP takes six months to show its effects. Did you factor that in?
I don't think we have enough evidence to know how long PRP takes - or if it helps a significant percentage of the time, so, no, I didn't factor that in.
what exact treatment is breaking up adhesions??
In my opinion, the only efficient way to break up / release adhesions is some form of Massage Therapy. Any method is better than nothing - but some methods work better than others. Here's my article and video on my site about the 3 best methods specifically for Golfer's and Tennis Elbow: tenniselbowclassroom.com/treatments/best-tennis-elbow-self-massage-techniques/
@@TennisElbowClassroom I'm feeling this very much and I thank you for instructing on this in your articles Allen. It is very sore but doing a cross massage for a few minutes on one section after heat and stretching really seems to be helping.
@@user-nv2wt4hi8t You're very welcome and I'm glad to hear it's helping!
51:10 Optimal diet ? Allen you don't know what the optimal diet is ? Vegan, non acid, with little to no processed food. Milk products are acidifying and promoting inflammation, animal and animal products are also to ban for the same reasons. Fruit juices and tomatoes are also to avoid.
I eat that way myself, but I don't believe I know what the optimal diet is for anyone else. I'm not convinced it's even vegan. That's just how I eat. I do believe there are MANY generally bad food choices, like, as you mentioned, processed food in general. High Fructose Corn Syrup. Sugar, in general. Yes, fruit juices, especially if not fresh squeezed.