Thoughtful Faith brought me here. I was hoping this would be more praxis oriented but still a strong presentation for people still open to reflecting upon their own gospel foundation. Thank you for sharing
That’s what the gospel really is. Paul talked about this in Romans. if you’re interested how he felt the focus on practical works focused actions check it out.
Any doctrine discussed other that the doctrine so clearly by Christ in these scriptures is anathema. Look at the long list of doctrines that are disputed in the long history of the church. Race, polygamy, priesthood, covenants ect. It’s all added upon the scripture that Joseph got right in the Book of Mormon. Read it again. It literally teaches to avoid adding more to it than he professed. That Paul professed. In fact Paul took it a step further and said even if an angel were to come to you things different than baptism and faith it is not if God. I know Christ lives and the fulness of His gospel is in the Bible and the Book of Mormon as taught by Christ.
Those disputes are brought about by men who refuse to accept certain teachings. Same reason there are thousands of man made churches and the reason for a restoration.
@@hrv4908those men that have brought on those disputes just so happen to be our “prophets seers and revelators” therein LIES the problem. The leaders are the ones that have added, enforced, discarded and attempted to hide these doctrines and teachings. The problem of Members leaving is simply the church reaping what they’ve sown.
I think as lifelong members we have a tendency to skip over basic doctrinal principles just cuz we think we already know these answers and there’s nothing more to learn. Preach my Gospel specifically covers this about baptism. The steps are 1. Faith, 2. Repentance 3. Baptism, 4. Holy Ghost One of the questions we would ask our investigators is, “why does repentance come before baptism?” To get them to see they need to ask for forgiveness before they’re baptized. Certainly the members of the church should be “retaught” these basic principles
At about the 15 minute mark you show “a quote” by Joseph Smith but show no reference from whence it came. I’ve looked for it but as of yet can’t find it. I don’t doubt JS said that but could you please show the reference? Btw I loved this video and it’s subject.
I LOVE how you are explaining that the experience should come BEFORE the ordinance of baptism. It happens in different ways, but Enos isn't the only one who goes through this. Reference Alma, Lamoni, and the Sons of Mosiah as well as Paul if you want to really start to go deep on this topic. I count myself among these men in this experience as well as what happens AFTER they go through it. It's quite an amazing topic and you will, if you go down that path, find yourself at odds even more with what even most of the Brethren have said on the topic of repentance. I am new to your channel but I will tell you that "sin is the path, repentance is the destination". You can't get to repentance without sinning. There is no reward for not sinning. But there IS a reward for repenting as a result of sin. Repentance is NOT forgiveness... It's UNDERSTANDING. And it's a real PLACE. A room not unlike the changing of the lights in the temple. And the amazing blessings waiting for all who are willing to receive it are SO worth it.
Are you saying that you must sin or experience sin, almost desiring to sin and then doing so and then learn from it? I'm just curious on your unique explanation. Its almost as if you have come up with a philosophy that encourages someone to experiment with sin. Very controversial. I disagree currently however am interested in unique views and how one arrives at such. I think I have read gnostic works regarding such a hypothesis. It seems dangerous and potentially the adversary's method. Any additional insight?
@@peterhook2258 not by any stretch am I saying people should go looking for mud puddles. However, each of us have our own personal journeys to travel and it includes our own sins unique to the individual. And I am also saying that the reward at the end of the line is requisite to the path of sin required to find it. If you have some other way to find the atonement without having something to give to the Lord in exchange for it, I’d love to hear it.
@@matthewglosenger3180 ty for responding. I was just interested for you to expand your viewpoint and I am thankful that you did. It is unique and I thank you for sharing it.
@@matthewglosenger3180I think the only thing that is truly uniquely ours to give to the Lord is our will. I believe it was Maxwell who said that. I could be wrong
The Book of Mormon is clear. Do not add to or remove from THIS fundamental doctrine of Christ. Unfortunately, over the past 200 years we have greatly added to and taken away from this and are living with the results. Our neighborhoods and churches and communities are not born of God not living within the covenant we think we are. We must repent, from top to bottom, of this within the Church.
I really enjoyed your presentation… It's strengthened my resolve in the basics of the church… However the one place that you lost me is when you segued from earth life to the kingdoms… There is 1000 year. We must all go through either fully in the millennium as a resurrected Bing or Partially in the millennium because we don't come forth on the morning of the first resurrection… I think it's shortsighted to overlook the role that the millennium will play in our salvation well actually in our exaltation as we have all been given salvation as a free gift of God… I would really appreciate somebody taking a deep dive into the role the millennium place in all of this… Great job
While I agree that many who leave the church were never born again, I’d say a bigger reason people leave the church is because they have lost trust in the brethren and the church as a vehicle for the everlasting covenant. One need not be LDS to be born again and witness to the heavens through Spirit-authorized baptism that they are in a covenant with Jesus. But the covenant is perfectly accessible here in the church still, amidst all the false traditions.
To be consistent, one doesn’t second guess God. Your discussion causes me to reflect on ,that( my opinion) an eight year old could not possibly appreciate what is happening? I can reconcile that an eight year old doesn’t have to repent because they are without sin as Jesus was. When they then are baptized without an understanding what all is happening, keeping the covenant in requisite with all the details you are describing is impossible.I assume that , like Enos, children eventually may have their personal experience. Easily, this detailed connection to baptism may be missed and not be be reconnected . Typically, the child feels the baptismal covenant is all on them from baptism. Rather than, now that you are going to the temple, you are really making the covenant. I can see how it is/ was a lot of baggage to handle in stride, given the pace that we encounter the promises made before we really know what we are doing. Because of the child like faith in our parents via the teachings of the church, in hind site can be a pretty confusing set of demands. I think myself and in general those baptized at eight, born in the covenant etc, are pitched a lot of weight that we can only handle with some blind faith. I sympathize with large swathes who have difficulties maintaining their faith given the general cultural process, born in the church population encounter. Yet , if I stay true to my allegiance, I can’t blame God for what seems to me , as creating a condition where lack of clarity is fostered. For some reason the fog of this mortal life, is purposed with God , born in or out of the church. With love He calls us and with mercy He endures our mortal slow pace it take us to truly perceive. I was born and raised in the church, and believe I am a pretty typical product of the culture. I struggle to keep up with the ideal way that is described that our religious experiences are supposed to fruit. Error can be found with the lackadaisical and the extremist . Finding that sweet spot makes for a murky process. I can only think the Atonement must envelop sooo much. Whatever the consequence of our use of agency in this life and what God will do with the result is intentionally held from us. Live and love and try. If you take the threat of miss step to extreme, suicide can appear to be the best option. Although I wouldn’t have previously thought it, I have had to tread such consideration. It’s wonderful for you to be so poignant with your insights. Being exposed to it is nice for me as long as I take it into consideration rather than try to expect some doctrine like this will immediately free me from all confusion, that this life exercises us through. Thanks for your efforts in Gods cause. I’ll leave it to God and His Son, to deal with my best guessed path to some eternal good. Live , love, try. Leave the rest to God and His Love is my plan!
But you haven't addressed the real reason people are leaving the church...at least not directly. You are on the right track with your explanation of the experience of repentance, but it's that type of experience that is lacking in the church. We have become secularized because we have remained silent in the things which are miraculous. Things that are beyond faith (or the result thereof). So what makes us different than any other believer or non-believer? Neither group can cite the miracles. And we don't talk about them nearly enough. It is one thing to recognize the real process of repentance. It's quite another to experience it. If you have experience this "Mighty Change of Heart" then you should be testifying of the same.
Right, which is why repentance is a prerequisite of baptism for any convert. Children, after becoming the age of 8 years, have no need for repentance and are able to take part in the ordinance and conditionally covenant with God
Are 8 year olds capable of the wrestle you are proposing? Joseph Smith hadn't thought of the three kingdoms of glory when he was dictating this. Mormons don't believe in hell. Joseph Smith also hadn't thought of the ordinances that happen in the temple when he dictated this. Otherwise Jesus would have taught correct doctrine.
This presentation show a lack of understanding of the hope and faith that former members had in the church. It assumes that members did not take their baptism seriously or even understand a sliver of what they were doing. It assumes former members did not read or have an understanding of these same scriptures. It assumes they did not serve missions, teach these same principles in Sunday school, Primary, Gospel Doctrine, and Gospel principles class, Elders Quorum, High Priests Group, Deacons Quorum, Teacher Quorum, Priest Quorum, in talks in sacrament meeting. The church has presented a false narrative to members. At some point members will be confronted by history, changing doctrine and an understanding that the brethren have been wrong and do lead members down diverse paths of supposed eternal truths, i.e.: blood atonement, polygamy, Adam God Theory, withholding ordinances from children of LGBTQ members and then reversing it within a short period of time. (both times doing it in the name of revelation from God). Changing restored temple ordinances. Magic world view of Joseph Smith using seer stones vs simply using the supposed ancient interpreters that Moroni supposedly gave JS. When a member leans into actually studying history they are confronted by the gap between what they were taught and a more correct history. (Evidence? 15 Gospel Topic essays) Instead of leading the LDS church, God is being molded by each and every prophet as they inject their own ideas into the church and claim God is speaking through them to the detriment of previous "doctrine" thus creating confusion and doubt.
Hi there. A lot of truths are showing up lately. I nearly left a few years ago myself. I was struggling with what to do when i finally realized i had to make a choice. I felt i should try for a greater understanding of the book of mormon. Just a few days later i was at the di looking for some novels to pass tme. I came across a book called out of darkness by keith terry. He has an interesting way of breaking it down into sections. I decided to research each section and boy did i get an eye opening. I came to realize that there was no way anyone could have written the book of mormon at that time. The information just wasnt readily available at that time.There was only one way to have gotten that book and that was the way joseph smith said he got it. Long story short i stayed in the church and believe js was indeed the prophet of the restoration and the book of mormon was translated by the power of God using joseph to get the job done. He used the urim and thumem not a stone in a hat. He only denonstrated that he could do it with a stone if God wished him to. I have have big doubts with brigham young onward. I choose to stick with the church because i know that in the end God will straighten things out. I cant get a temple reccammend but that is fine with me. God knows my heart. He knows that i am worthy of my covenants. I will not worship the prophet the way so many do these days. My faith is in Christ. I hope you will try to find a copy of that book and see if it will help open your eyes too. God be with.
@@icecreamladydriver1606 I respect you for thinking deeply about the reasons you want to remain part of the church. If I understood correctly you now have a more nuanced view of the church. I think that is typical. The simple faith the church asks us to have in the leaders and the doctrine cannot be maintained when we research and study church history. What we are left within is a resolve to have faith Jesus and God. In reality we can have that without wading through dogma and trying to justify all the bone headed mistake that were made in the early days of mormonism and the ever-changing doctrine. Mad respect for those who do religion on their terms.
@@ericredd5590 I see what you are saying and I believe we do all need to do it our way. That is why I don't put much stock in any of them starting with Brigham Young. I don't believe Joseph practiced polygamy and that BY along with those around him may well have changed the true history to fit what they wanted. We do know that Joseph fought against slavery and even sold Emma;s favorite horse to pay for a man's freedom. We are supportive of our daughter who left the church and her husband who not only left the church but also had his name removed and I hope you are finding that support and love as well. I did recently find a group that is helping people as they leave the church. If you need someone you can talk with you may want to see if you can find them. They have a book club and recently decided to start a podcast called Mormonish. I just watched the two people who started it. They were on the mormon book reviews channel here on youtube just yesterday or the day before. They too like you have walked away. I know it is painful to leave the church because it is such a part of our lives and maybe these guys can help you. Please don't give up on God as many have done after leaving the church. God be with you.
I thought your explanation on the importance of baptism and repentance was very good. This truly is foundational. I wish they gave talks like this in General Conference. I have been having serious concerns about the church and one of them is that they do a poor job of communicating what it means to enter in at the gate, but rather focus a good deal on just getting various ordinances done. A temple marriage isn’t going to save you-but rather becoming one with Jesus Christ. It really seems like the church is getting further and further away from this critical foundation. People need to ground themselves deeply in prayer and the scriptures, particularly the gospels and the BOM, if they want to understand how to be saved, because church meetings, conference, and attending temple just are not going to get you to Jesus Christ. As a side note, I know a lot of people leaving the church or being ex’ed who understand the concepts you have presented and have even had their baptism of fire. There is some food for thought for you.
What you guys say make no sense at all. You going down that road that this man knows more than our 15 seers and revelaters ? How sad is that? When Wendy said if the knew what they had to go through to bring you these messages. Gods chosen servants know every six months what is needed for us . GC is wonderful .
People hide the real reason so others don’t follow. In the 80s, they used to say everyone left because they were “offended “. I learned that was a lie and so is the reason this guy is giving.
I'm 27 minutes into the video and you really haven't addressed the reason why people are leaving the church. You briefly mentioned history but no real discussion. You talk a lot about baptism and convents but ignore the real issues. I was 8 when I was baptized in the lds church and lived my life as a faithful latter day saint until I was serving in the bishopric at age 43. Church history is something that cannot be ignored. The church has an ugly past and they have worked very hard to conceal it. How can I trust an organization that has repeatedly lied to its members. Please don't tell me they haven't because it is very obvious they have. What good is my covenant of baptism in a corrupt religion?
I think his point is that the church’s foundation had serious enough flaws that to have today’s church being the basis of testimony is to build upon a sandy foundation. Christ’s fundamental doctrine, as taught in the Book of Mormon is to receive a full and complete baptism…. Todd would say that far FAR fewer members of the church have received a true baptism than we would suspect… Like he said, if 90% of members of the church received a true and complete baptism (not just of water, but of fire and of the Holy Ghost) that most problems we see today would melt away? Why? Because we would be in an entirely different church… it would be the church we read of in the book of Acts and after Mosiah 4-5…
@@cab9191 Thank you for this clarification, what you say makes sense. Do you believe the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be? Some of the real issues that the lds church has is the book itself. No real evidence has ever been found to back up the stories of the people described in the Book of Mormon. I do agree that one must receive a true and complete baptism. I don't agree it needs to be done by authority from the lds preisthood. A person should be fully converted to faith in Jesus Christ and His Gospel. God has preserved so many things that are still being discovered in regards to the people and places of the Bible. With the Book of Mormon we have absolutely nothing. Why is that?
@@rabbithole2015 yes the anachronisms and lack of historical evidence are problematic, especially in the setting of the problematic elements of the Book of Abraham. Deutero Isaiah I also don’t have an answer for. That said I currently am not ready to throw the Book of Mormon out completely, until we have a greater picture… I have found books like “He Walked the Americas” by L. Taylor Hansen (author not affiliated with the LDS church)to be compelling. As have some evidences put forward about the mound builders of the Great Lakes areas. Regardless of all that, it’s the doctrinal exposition found in the Book of Mormon that I find most fascinating. I have had profound revelatory experiences about Jesus’ Way that correlate so closely with what is contained in the book, that I cannot just reject…. This is far beyond simple “feeling” that it is “true”. I mean I have experienced some instances where extended downloads of pure experiential knowledge have been given to me that so closely correlate with part of the Book of Mormon that I have been left to conclude that “someone, somewhere” must have experienced the same revelation and written it down - because the evidence is in that book… Could it be non historical? Maybe? I just don’t know Now, they all said, because I hold the Book of Mormon in high regard, I have deep concerns that today’s church is NOT what it claims to be. I do not believe that there is a cart Blanche guarantee that we can’t lapse into apostasy. In fact, I believe we have…. There seems to me that there might be no more dangerous of a belief that thinking that a church can never go astray… I short, the most concerning thing I see is our nearly complete deviation from seeking what Todd is speaking of here, which is the essence of the New Testament gospel and the doctrine of Christ from the Book of Mormon. Early on in church history we laid some nasty looking bricks down, and have building on them since… yeah polygamy - I’m looking at you…. And what we have today is something we certainly can no longer build upon… Let us instead build upon the only sure foundation, which is Christ and the new life which he offers us.
The logic used in this video reminds me of a talk given by Neil L. Anderson in 2012 about remaining steadfast and immovable with unshakable faith. “How do you remain ‘steadfast and immovable’ during a trial of faith? You immerse yourself in the very things that helped build your core of faith: you exercise faith in Christ, you pray, you ponder the scriptures, you repent, you keep the commandments, and you serve others. When faced with a trial of faith-whatever you do, you don’t step away from the Church! Distancing yourself from the kingdom of God during a trial of faith is like leaving the safety of a secure storm cellar just as the tornado comes into view...It is within the sanctuary of the Church that we protect our faith. Meeting together with others who believe, we pray and find answers to our prayers; we worship through music, share testimony of the Savior, serve one another, and feel the Spirit of the Lord...When you are faced with a test of faith, stay within the safety and security of the household of God. There is always a place for you here. No trial is so large we can’t overcome it together.“ (Neil L. Andersen, Trial of Your Faith, General Conference, November 2012) If remaining “steadfast and immovable” with “unshakable faith” is the answer to doubt and “enduring to the end” is the way to keep from becoming “lost” and/or “led astray”, why not exercise those same principles with ALL of our faith-based beliefs? If those principles only apply to some beliefs and not all, how do we know which beliefs to apply them to vs which beliefs to not apply them to? How do we ensure that we are applying them vs not applying them appropriately? What reliable criteria do we have to make that determination? For example, do you still believe in Santa Clause, the Tooth Fairy, and/or the Easter Bunny? If not, why not? Why choose to not remain “steadfast and immovable”, not exercise “unshakable faith” and not “endure to the end” with those beliefs? Now, re-read the previous talk by Andersen with a modified scenario and see if these principles are still good counsel when facing doubts about faith-based beliefs. “How do you remain ‘steadfast and immovable’ during a trial of faith? You immerse yourself in the very things that helped build your core of faith: you exercise faith in [Santa, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny], you pray, you ponder the [holiday stories], you repent, you keep the commandments, and you serve others. When faced with a trial of faith-whatever you do, you don’t step away from [your beliefs]! Distancing yourself from [your beliefs] during a trial of faith is like leaving the safety of a secure storm cellar just as the tornado comes into view...It is within the sanctuary of the [holiday believers] that we protect our faith. Meeting together with others who believe, we pray and find answers to our prayers; we worship through music, share testimony of [Santa, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny], serve one another, and feel the Spirit of the [holidays]...When you are faced with a test of faith, stay within the safety and security of the [holiday believers]. There is always a place for you here. No trial is so large we can’t overcome it together.“ (Neil L. Andersen, Trial of Your Faith, General Conference, November 2012 [with modifications]) After re-reading Apostle Andersen’s advice using faith-based holiday characters instead of faith-based religious characters, does it still sound like good counsel with respect to the faith-based holiday characters? If not, why not? Why would this be good counsel for some faith-based beliefs (God, Jesus Christ, etc) and not other faith-based beliefs (Santa, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, etc)? If it is not good counsel for ALL faith-based beliefs, is it good counsel for ANY faith-based belief? If it is good counsel for some faith-based beliefs but not others, what reasonable and reliable criteria do we use to know which faith-based beliefs it should be applied to vs which faith-based beliefs it should not applied to? If it isn't good counsel for some faith-based beliefs, how do we know that it is good counsel for any faith based belief? Why would it only be good counsel for religious beliefs and not good counsel for non-religious beliefs? These questions are important because if we followed this counsel with our faith-based beliefs in Santa, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny, we would still believe that they are real.
What is "Unshakable Faith"? Faith is a placeholder for knowledge. Unshakable faith would imply that we hold out faith in light of knowledge that contradicts ones faith, In other words, ignore the facts you have learned and still hope or have faith in your original position. Our knowledge can and should increase in order to have perfect knowledge some day. If faith dies, it does so in the light of knowledge.
I think one needs to understand what faith is. Faith in the tooth fairy, santa clause and the easter bunny is based on worldly perceptions based on easily provable realities that are false. It takes faith to plant a seed and hope to get a crop at the end of it. If the seed does not grow we analyze the process and try to improve it. Over time it becomes provable. With faith in fictional characters the seed only produce fruit as long as a parent or outside individual was doing or providing it. With faith based on God and Jesus Christ there is outside influence above and beyond what a mortal being could provide. Knowledge and guidance about events before they happen? There is fruit provided that is not based on fables and lies. Have a nice day.
Remaining steadfast and immovable in Faith means not being open to learning more. It means hiding from reality, history, nuance, and from my perspective Truth.
@@Veevslav1 You said, “I think one needs to understand what faith is.” Here are definitions of “faith” from Merriam-Webster online dictionary: : belief and trust in and loyalty to God : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion : firm belief in something for which there is no proof : complete trust : something that is believed especially with strong conviction : a system of religious beliefs You said, “Faith in the tooth fairy, santa clause and the easter bunny is based on worldly perceptions based on easily provable realities that are false.” So is faith in God. If you disagree, explain the difference. You said, “It takes faith to plant a seed and hope to get a crop at the end of it. If the seed does not grow we analyze the process and try to improve it. Over time it becomes provable.” What exactly becomes probable over time? That plants grow from seeds? We already know that plants grow from seeds. It is provable by science. Some seed sellers are so confident in their seed propagation that they guarantee that a certain percentage of their seeds will sprout. Again, provable by science. You said, “With faith in fictional characters the seed only produce fruit as long as a parent or outside individual was doing or providing it.” Sounds very similar to how religions function. If there is a difference, please explain the difference. You said, “With faith based on God and Jesus Christ there is outside influence above and beyond what a mortal being could provide.” That is an unsubstantiable claim. Provide your evidence that “there is outside influence above and beyond what a mortal being could provide”. Without evidence it is just conjecture and opinion, not truth. You asked, “Knowledge and guidance about events before they happen?” Is that your evidence that God exists? I recommend you look up the God of the gaps fallacy. You said, “There is fruit provided that is not based on fables and lies.” If this is your evidence that God exists, be more specific. This statement is way too generalized to be evidence. Again, look up the God of the gaps fallacy. You said, “Have a nice day.” You too! And, please provide better evidence next time.
Not where I though it was headed, which that the church was built on a foundation of untrue history and doctrine, which started out fine, it grew, but now the faults have caused the structure to crack and it’s impossible to recover from those original faults (false historical narratives etc). The church tries to deny the inconsistencies. It’s tries to adapt with the times… but it’s now teetering on that faulty foundation. And member who built their faith on that foundation who want to learn more and grow sometimes get too tall to overcome the faults they built their faith upon.
People are leaving because the devil is pulling out all of the stops and only the strong will survive. Wheat and tares, goats and sheep, the ten virgins. One eay is by convincing some to believe the BofM is true, but the Church is not. Easier to fool by half truth than outright lie. The devil is a crafty fellow and knows how to deceive the weak.
There are plenty of podcast you can go to wallow in your misery, you choose to listen to this one. No apologies needed. I respect your agency not your attitude.
@@smuggythornton And there are plenty of podcasts you can go to reinforce your [non-evidence based] faith based beliefs, just like this one. I respect your agency to believe what you want, even if it isn't backed by evidence and science. Believing in things without good evidence puts you in good company with children that believe in Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy. The good feelings that accompany those faith based beliefs may make you feel good but they do not prove that those beliefs are true.
@@adamholloway7963 without saying it just described how to be a apostate,. Adam its ok not to believe, but to claim there is no evidence is just lying to yourself, fine , go on with your faithless life and I send you happiness along the way. (by the way mature adults don't make fun of children, while putting others down)
@@smuggythornton Believing something is true and/or exercising faith that something is true has no bearing on whether it is actually true. My kids believe that Santa Clause, his flying reindeer, and his toy making elves are all real and all live in the North Pole. They exercise faith in their belief by trying to be good throughout the year, writing letters to Santa asking for specific gifts they desire, putting out cookies and milk for Santa, and going to bed on time on Christmas Eve so that he will come to deliver their presents. They experience positive emotions and good feelings when they exercise faith in their belief. My kids can even point to "evidence" that supports their belief that Santa is real similar to LDS members pointing to "evidence" that supports their faith based beliefs. Does my kids' “evidence” prove that Santa, his elves, and his flying reindeer really do exist? No. Do their good/positive emotions and feelings prove that Santa, his elves, and his flying reindeer really do exist? Again, no. My kids' “evidence” and good/positive feelings just support their belief that it is all real. Again, similar to LDS faith based beliefs. Do they benefit from that belief? I believe they do benefit to some degree at this point in their lives. However, one day, they will begin to apply critical thinking skills to that belief and realize that reindeer can’t fly, Santa can’t deliver presents to all the children of the world in a single night, toy making elves don’t exist, and none of them live in the North Pole. And, despite the fact that they benefited from their belief in Santa for a period in their lives and their belief helped produce positive emotions/good feelings for them, they will outgrow that false belief when it no longer benefits them. If someone believes in something strong enough, of course they will find "evidence" to support that belief. It is called confirmation bias. The truth is, the preponderance of evidence does not support that the LDS faith based beliefs [i.e. BoM historicity, BoA authenticity, 6,000 year old earth, all humans spontaneously originated from Jackson County, Missouri around 6,000 years ago, a global flood killed all humans and land animals in the entire world except for 8 humans and the few animals saved on Noah's Ark around 4,400 years ago, etc] are true.
Thoughtful Faith brought me here. I was hoping this would be more praxis oriented but still a strong presentation for people still open to reflecting upon their own gospel foundation. Thank you for sharing
That’s what the gospel really is. Paul talked about this in Romans. if you’re interested how he felt the focus on practical works focused actions check it out.
Thank you Todd. You are amazing.
Any doctrine discussed other that the doctrine so clearly by Christ in these scriptures is anathema. Look at the long list of doctrines that are disputed in the long history of the church. Race, polygamy, priesthood, covenants ect. It’s all added upon the scripture that Joseph got right in the Book of Mormon. Read it again. It literally teaches to avoid adding more to it than he professed. That Paul professed. In fact Paul took it a step further and said even if an angel were to come to you things different than baptism and faith it is not if God. I know Christ lives and the fulness of His gospel is in the Bible and the Book of Mormon as taught by Christ.
Those disputes are brought about by men who refuse to accept certain teachings. Same reason there are thousands of man made churches and the reason for a restoration.
@@hrv4908those men that have brought on those disputes just so happen to be our “prophets seers and revelators” therein LIES the problem. The leaders are the ones that have added, enforced, discarded and attempted to hide these doctrines and teachings. The problem of Members leaving is simply the church reaping what they’ve sown.
I think as lifelong members we have a tendency to skip over basic doctrinal principles just cuz we think we already know these answers and there’s nothing more to learn.
Preach my Gospel specifically covers this about baptism. The steps are 1. Faith, 2. Repentance 3. Baptism, 4. Holy Ghost
One of the questions we would ask our investigators is, “why does repentance come before baptism?” To get them to see they need to ask for forgiveness before they’re baptized.
Certainly the members of the church should be “retaught” these basic principles
I did not fully understand these things when I was raising children. Therefore, I need to repent because I am responsible for the sins of my children.
At about the 15 minute mark you show “a quote” by Joseph Smith but show no reference from whence it came. I’ve looked for it but as of yet can’t find it. I don’t doubt JS said that but could you please show the reference?
Btw I loved this video and it’s subject.
I found it… History of the Church vol 4 page 555.
I LOVE how you are explaining that the experience should come BEFORE the ordinance of baptism. It happens in different ways, but Enos isn't the only one who goes through this. Reference Alma, Lamoni, and the Sons of Mosiah as well as Paul if you want to really start to go deep on this topic. I count myself among these men in this experience as well as what happens AFTER they go through it. It's quite an amazing topic and you will, if you go down that path, find yourself at odds even more with what even most of the Brethren have said on the topic of repentance.
I am new to your channel but I will tell you that "sin is the path, repentance is the destination".
You can't get to repentance without sinning. There is no reward for not sinning. But there IS a reward for repenting as a result of sin.
Repentance is NOT forgiveness...
It's UNDERSTANDING. And it's a real PLACE. A room not unlike the changing of the lights in the temple. And the amazing blessings waiting for all who are willing to receive it are SO worth it.
Are you saying that you must sin or experience sin, almost desiring to sin and then doing so and then learn from it? I'm just curious on your unique explanation. Its almost as if you have come up with a philosophy that encourages someone to experiment with sin. Very controversial. I disagree currently however am interested in unique views and how one arrives at such. I think I have read gnostic works regarding such a hypothesis. It seems dangerous and potentially the adversary's method. Any additional insight?
@@peterhook2258 not by any stretch am I saying people should go looking for mud puddles.
However, each of us have our own personal journeys to travel and it includes our own sins unique to the individual.
And I am also saying that the reward at the end of the line is requisite to the path of sin required to find it.
If you have some other way to find the atonement without having something to give to the Lord in exchange for it, I’d love to hear it.
@@matthewglosenger3180 ty for responding. I was just interested for you to expand your viewpoint and I am thankful that you did. It is unique and I thank you for sharing it.
@@matthewglosenger3180I think the only thing that is truly uniquely ours to give to the Lord is our will. I believe it was Maxwell who said that. I could be wrong
The Book of Mormon is clear. Do not add to or remove from THIS fundamental doctrine of Christ. Unfortunately, over the past 200 years we have greatly added to and taken away from this and are living with the results. Our neighborhoods and churches and communities are not born of God not living within the covenant we think we are. We must repent, from top to bottom, of this within the Church.
I really enjoyed your presentation… It's strengthened my resolve in the basics of the church… However the one place that you lost me is when you segued from earth life to the kingdoms… There is 1000 year. We must all go through either fully in the millennium as a resurrected Bing or Partially in the millennium because we don't come forth on the morning of the first resurrection… I think it's shortsighted to overlook the role that the millennium will play in our salvation well actually in our exaltation as we have all been given salvation as a free gift of God… I would really appreciate somebody taking a deep dive into the role the millennium place in all of this… Great job
I’ve never thought of that perspective. that gives me great hope and opens my eyes to a whole new idea; thank you!
While I agree that many who leave the church were never born again, I’d say a bigger reason people leave the church is because they have lost trust in the brethren and the church as a vehicle for the everlasting covenant.
One need not be LDS to be born again and witness to the heavens through Spirit-authorized baptism that they are in a covenant with Jesus.
But the covenant is perfectly accessible here in the church still, amidst all the false traditions.
To be consistent, one doesn’t second guess God. Your discussion causes me to reflect on ,that( my opinion) an eight year old could not possibly appreciate what is happening? I can reconcile that an eight year old doesn’t have to repent because they are without sin as Jesus was. When they then are baptized without an understanding what all is happening, keeping the covenant in requisite with all the details you are describing is impossible.I assume that , like Enos, children eventually may have their personal experience. Easily, this detailed connection to baptism may be missed and not be be reconnected . Typically, the child feels the baptismal covenant is all on them from baptism. Rather than, now that you are going to the temple, you are really making the covenant. I can see how it is/ was a lot of baggage to handle in stride, given the pace that we encounter the promises made before we really know what we are doing. Because of the child like faith in our parents via the teachings of the church, in hind site can be a pretty confusing set of demands. I think myself and in general those baptized at eight, born in the covenant etc, are pitched a lot of weight that we can only handle with some blind faith. I sympathize with large swathes who have difficulties maintaining their faith given the general cultural process, born in the church population encounter. Yet , if I stay true to my allegiance, I can’t blame God for what seems to me , as creating a condition where lack of clarity is fostered. For some reason the fog of this mortal life, is purposed with God , born in or out of the church. With love He calls us and with mercy He endures our mortal slow pace it take us to truly perceive.
I was born and raised in the church, and believe I am a pretty typical product of the culture. I struggle to keep up with the ideal way that is described that our religious experiences are supposed to fruit. Error can be found with the lackadaisical and the extremist . Finding that sweet spot makes for a murky process. I can only think the Atonement must envelop sooo much. Whatever the consequence of our use of agency in this life and what God will do with the result is intentionally held from us. Live and love and try. If you take the threat of miss step to extreme, suicide can appear to be the best option. Although I wouldn’t have previously thought it, I have had to tread such consideration.
It’s wonderful for you to be so poignant with your insights. Being exposed to it is nice for me as long as I take it into consideration rather than try to expect some doctrine like this will immediately free me from all confusion, that this life exercises us through.
Thanks for your efforts in Gods cause. I’ll leave it to God and His Son, to deal with my best guessed path to some eternal good.
Live , love, try. Leave the rest to God and His Love is my plan!
But you haven't addressed the real reason people are leaving the church...at least not directly.
You are on the right track with your explanation of the experience of repentance, but it's that type of experience that is lacking in the church. We have become secularized because we have remained silent in the things which are miraculous. Things that are beyond faith (or the result thereof). So what makes us different than any other believer or non-believer? Neither group can cite the miracles. And we don't talk about them nearly enough.
It is one thing to recognize the real process of repentance. It's quite another to experience it.
If you have experience this "Mighty Change of Heart" then you should be testifying of the same.
Book of Mormon teaches this . He isn’t teaching anything you haven’t heard .
Right, which is why repentance is a prerequisite of baptism for any convert. Children, after becoming the age of 8 years, have no need for repentance and are able to take part in the ordinance and conditionally covenant with God
Why is there a million commercials on this vid? So annoying. Moving to another channel.
That is so strange. I don't see commercials and I don't think this video is monetized.
Are 8 year olds capable of the wrestle you are proposing?
Joseph Smith hadn't thought of the three kingdoms of glory when he was dictating this. Mormons don't believe in hell. Joseph Smith also hadn't thought of the ordinances that happen in the temple when he dictated this. Otherwise Jesus would have taught correct doctrine.
This presentation show a lack of understanding of the hope and faith that former members had in the church. It assumes that members did not take their baptism seriously or even understand a sliver of what they were doing. It assumes former members did not read or have an understanding of these same scriptures. It assumes they did not serve missions, teach these same principles in Sunday school, Primary, Gospel Doctrine, and Gospel principles class, Elders Quorum, High Priests Group, Deacons Quorum, Teacher Quorum, Priest Quorum, in talks in sacrament meeting.
The church has presented a false narrative to members. At some point members will be confronted by history, changing doctrine and an understanding that the brethren have been wrong and do lead members down diverse paths of supposed eternal truths, i.e.: blood atonement, polygamy, Adam God Theory, withholding ordinances from children of LGBTQ members and then reversing it within a short period of time. (both times doing it in the name of revelation from God). Changing restored temple ordinances. Magic world view of Joseph Smith using seer stones vs simply using the supposed ancient interpreters that Moroni supposedly gave JS. When a member leans into actually studying history they are confronted by the gap between what they were taught and a more correct history. (Evidence? 15 Gospel Topic essays) Instead of leading the LDS church, God is being molded by each and every prophet as they inject their own ideas into the church and claim God is speaking through them to the detriment of previous "doctrine" thus creating confusion and doubt.
Hi there. A lot of truths are showing up lately. I nearly left a few years ago myself. I was struggling with what to do when i finally realized i had to make a choice. I felt i should try for a greater understanding of the book of mormon. Just a few days later i was at the di looking for some novels to pass tme. I came across a book called out of darkness by keith terry. He has an interesting way of breaking it down into sections. I decided to research each section and boy did i get an eye opening. I came to realize that there was no way anyone could have written the book of mormon at that time. The information just wasnt readily available at that time.There was only one way to have gotten that book and that was the way joseph smith said he got it. Long story short i stayed in the church and believe js was indeed the prophet of the restoration and the book of mormon was translated by the power of God using joseph to get the job done. He used the urim and thumem not a stone in a hat. He only denonstrated that he could do it with a stone if God wished him to. I have have big doubts with brigham young onward. I choose to stick with the church because i know that in the end God will straighten things out. I cant get a temple reccammend but that is fine with me. God knows my heart. He knows that i am worthy of my covenants. I will not worship the prophet the way so many do these days. My faith is in Christ. I hope you will try to find a copy of that book and see if it will help open your eyes too. God be with.
@@icecreamladydriver1606 I respect you for thinking deeply about the reasons you want to remain part of the church. If I understood correctly you now have a more nuanced view of the church. I think that is typical. The simple faith the church asks us to have in the leaders and the doctrine cannot be maintained when we research and study church history. What we are left within is a resolve to have faith Jesus and God. In reality we can have that without wading through dogma and trying to justify all the bone headed mistake that were made in the early days of mormonism and the ever-changing doctrine.
Mad respect for those who do religion on their terms.
Yep. All of that.
@@ericredd5590 I see what you are saying and I believe we do all need to do it our way. That is why I don't put much stock in any of them starting with Brigham Young. I don't believe Joseph practiced polygamy and that BY along with those around him may well have changed the true history to fit what they wanted. We do know that Joseph fought against slavery and even sold Emma;s favorite horse to pay for a man's freedom. We are supportive of our daughter who left the church and her husband who not only left the church but also had his name removed and I hope you are finding that support and love as well. I did recently find a group that is helping people as they leave the church. If you need someone you can talk with you may want to see if you can find them. They have a book club and recently decided to start a podcast called Mormonish. I just watched the two people who started it. They were on the mormon book reviews channel here on youtube just yesterday or the day before. They too like you have walked away. I know it is painful to leave the church because it is such a part of our lives and maybe these guys can help you. Please don't give up on God as many have done after leaving the church. God be with you.
@@ksparks689 Sure is a lot going on these days.
I thought your explanation on the importance of baptism and repentance was very good. This truly is foundational. I wish they gave talks like this in General Conference. I have been having serious concerns about the church and one of them is that they do a poor job of communicating what it means to enter in at the gate, but rather focus a good deal on just getting various ordinances done. A temple marriage isn’t going to save you-but rather becoming one with Jesus Christ. It really seems like the church is getting further and further away from this critical foundation. People need to ground themselves deeply in prayer and the scriptures, particularly the gospels and the BOM, if they want to understand how to be saved, because church meetings, conference, and attending temple just are not going to get you to Jesus Christ.
As a side note, I know a lot of people leaving the church or being ex’ed who understand the concepts you have presented and have even had their baptism of fire. There is some food for thought for you.
P.S. Thank you for this. I’m saving to watch again later.
The reason the foundation isn’t taught in conferences as it is here is because the prophet is taught as the foundation of the church of LDS
What you guys say make no sense at all. You going down that road that this man knows more than our 15 seers and revelaters ? How sad is that? When Wendy said if the knew what they had to go through to bring you these messages. Gods chosen servants know every six months what is needed for us . GC is wonderful .
People hide the real reason so others don’t follow. In the 80s, they used to say everyone left because they were “offended “. I learned that was a lie and so is the reason this guy is giving.
I'm 27 minutes into the video and you really haven't addressed the reason why people are leaving the church. You briefly mentioned history but no real discussion. You talk a lot about baptism and convents but ignore the real issues. I was 8 when I was baptized in the lds church and lived my life as a faithful latter day saint until I was serving in the bishopric at age 43. Church history is something that cannot be ignored. The church has an ugly past and they have worked very hard to conceal it. How can I trust an organization that has repeatedly lied to its members. Please don't tell me they haven't because it is very obvious they have. What good is my covenant of baptism in a corrupt religion?
I think his point is that the church’s foundation had serious enough flaws that to have today’s church being the basis of testimony is to build upon a sandy foundation. Christ’s fundamental doctrine, as taught in the Book of Mormon is to receive a full and complete baptism…. Todd would say that far FAR fewer members of the church have received a true baptism than we would suspect…
Like he said, if 90% of members of the church received a true and complete baptism (not just of water, but of fire and of the Holy Ghost) that most problems we see today would melt away? Why? Because we would be in an entirely different church… it would be the church we read of in the book of Acts and after Mosiah 4-5…
@@cab9191 Thank you for this clarification, what you say makes sense. Do you believe the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be? Some of the real issues that the lds church has is the book itself. No real evidence has ever been found to back up the stories of the people described in the Book of Mormon. I do agree that one must receive a true and complete baptism. I don't agree it needs to be done by authority from the lds preisthood. A person should be fully converted to faith in Jesus Christ and His Gospel. God has preserved so many things that are still being discovered in regards to the people and places of the Bible. With the Book of Mormon we have absolutely nothing. Why is that?
@@rabbithole2015 yes the anachronisms and lack of historical evidence are problematic, especially in the setting of the problematic elements of the Book of Abraham. Deutero Isaiah I also don’t have an answer for.
That said I currently am not ready to throw the Book of Mormon out completely, until we have a greater picture…
I have found books like “He Walked the Americas” by L. Taylor Hansen (author not affiliated with the LDS church)to be compelling. As have some evidences put forward about the mound builders of the Great Lakes areas.
Regardless of all that, it’s the doctrinal exposition found in the Book of Mormon that I find most fascinating. I have had profound revelatory experiences about Jesus’ Way that correlate so closely with what is contained in the book, that I cannot just reject…. This is far beyond simple “feeling” that it is “true”. I mean I have experienced some instances where extended downloads of pure experiential knowledge have been given to me that so closely correlate with part of the Book of Mormon that I have been left to conclude that “someone, somewhere” must have experienced the same revelation and written it down - because the evidence is in that book… Could it be non historical? Maybe? I just don’t know
Now, they all said, because I hold the Book of Mormon in high regard, I have deep concerns that today’s church is NOT what it claims to be. I do not believe that there is a cart Blanche guarantee that we can’t lapse into apostasy. In fact, I believe we have…. There seems to me that there might be no more dangerous of a belief that thinking that a church can never go astray…
I short, the most concerning thing I see is our nearly complete deviation from seeking what Todd is speaking of here, which is the essence of the New Testament gospel and the doctrine of Christ from the Book of Mormon. Early on in church history we laid some nasty looking bricks down, and have building on them since… yeah polygamy - I’m looking at you…. And what we have today is something we certainly can no longer build upon…
Let us instead build upon the only sure foundation, which is Christ and the new life which he offers us.
The logic used in this video reminds me of a talk given by Neil L. Anderson in 2012 about remaining steadfast and immovable with unshakable faith.
“How do you remain ‘steadfast and immovable’ during a trial of faith? You immerse yourself in the very things that helped build your core of faith: you exercise faith in Christ, you pray, you ponder the scriptures, you repent, you keep the commandments, and you serve others. When faced with a trial of faith-whatever you do, you don’t step away from the Church! Distancing yourself from the kingdom of God during a trial of faith is like leaving the safety of a secure storm cellar just as the tornado comes into view...It is within the sanctuary of the Church that we protect our faith. Meeting together with others who believe, we pray and find answers to our prayers; we worship through music, share testimony of the Savior, serve one another, and feel the Spirit of the Lord...When you are faced with a test of faith, stay within the safety and security of the household of God. There is always a place for you here. No trial is so large we can’t overcome it together.“ (Neil L. Andersen, Trial of Your Faith, General Conference, November 2012)
If remaining “steadfast and immovable” with “unshakable faith” is the answer to doubt and “enduring to the end” is the way to keep from becoming “lost” and/or “led astray”, why not exercise those same principles with ALL of our faith-based beliefs? If those principles only apply to some beliefs and not all, how do we know which beliefs to apply them to vs which beliefs to not apply them to? How do we ensure that we are applying them vs not applying them appropriately? What reliable criteria do we have to make that determination? For example, do you still believe in Santa Clause, the Tooth Fairy, and/or the Easter Bunny? If not, why not? Why choose to not remain “steadfast and immovable”, not exercise “unshakable faith” and not “endure to the end” with those beliefs?
Now, re-read the previous talk by Andersen with a modified scenario and see if these principles are still good counsel when facing doubts about faith-based beliefs.
“How do you remain ‘steadfast and immovable’ during a trial of faith? You immerse yourself in the very things that helped build your core of faith: you exercise faith in [Santa, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny], you pray, you ponder the [holiday stories], you repent, you keep the commandments, and you serve others. When faced with a trial of faith-whatever you do, you don’t step away from [your beliefs]! Distancing yourself from [your beliefs] during a trial of faith is like leaving the safety of a secure storm cellar just as the tornado comes into view...It is within the sanctuary of the [holiday believers] that we protect our faith. Meeting together with others who believe, we pray and find answers to our prayers; we worship through music, share testimony of [Santa, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny], serve one another, and feel the Spirit of the [holidays]...When you are faced with a test of faith, stay within the safety and security of the [holiday believers]. There is always a place for you here. No trial is so large we can’t overcome it together.“ (Neil L. Andersen, Trial of Your Faith, General Conference, November 2012 [with modifications])
After re-reading Apostle Andersen’s advice using faith-based holiday characters instead of faith-based religious characters, does it still sound like good counsel with respect to the faith-based holiday characters? If not, why not? Why would this be good counsel for some faith-based beliefs (God, Jesus Christ, etc) and not other faith-based beliefs (Santa, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, etc)? If it is not good counsel for ALL faith-based beliefs, is it good counsel for ANY faith-based belief? If it is good counsel for some faith-based beliefs but not others, what reasonable and reliable criteria do we use to know which faith-based beliefs it should be applied to vs which faith-based beliefs it should not applied to? If it isn't good counsel for some faith-based beliefs, how do we know that it is good counsel for any faith based belief? Why would it only be good counsel for religious beliefs and not good counsel for non-religious beliefs?
These questions are important because if we followed this counsel with our faith-based beliefs in Santa, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny, we would still believe that they are real.
What is "Unshakable Faith"? Faith is a placeholder for knowledge. Unshakable faith would imply that we hold out faith in light of knowledge that contradicts ones faith, In other words, ignore the facts you have learned and still hope or have faith in your original position. Our knowledge can and should increase in order to have perfect knowledge some day. If faith dies, it does so in the light of knowledge.
I think one needs to understand what faith is. Faith in the tooth fairy, santa clause and the easter bunny is based on worldly perceptions based on easily provable realities that are false.
It takes faith to plant a seed and hope to get a crop at the end of it. If the seed does not grow we analyze the process and try to improve it. Over time it becomes provable. With faith in fictional characters the seed only produce fruit as long as a parent or outside individual was doing or providing it. With faith based on God and Jesus Christ there is outside influence above and beyond what a mortal being could provide. Knowledge and guidance about events before they happen? There is fruit provided that is not based on fables and lies.
Have a nice day.
Remaining steadfast and immovable in Faith means not being open to learning more. It means hiding from reality, history, nuance, and from my perspective Truth.
@@Veevslav1 You said, “I think one needs to understand what faith is.”
Here are definitions of “faith” from Merriam-Webster online dictionary:
: belief and trust in and loyalty to God
: belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
: firm belief in something for which there is no proof
: complete trust
: something that is believed especially with strong conviction
: a system of religious beliefs
You said, “Faith in the tooth fairy, santa clause and the easter bunny is based on worldly perceptions based on easily provable realities that are false.”
So is faith in God. If you disagree, explain the difference.
You said, “It takes faith to plant a seed and hope to get a crop at the end of it. If the seed does not grow we analyze the process and try to improve it. Over time it becomes provable.”
What exactly becomes probable over time? That plants grow from seeds? We already know that plants grow from seeds. It is provable by science. Some seed sellers are so confident in their seed propagation that they guarantee that a certain percentage of their seeds will sprout. Again, provable by science.
You said, “With faith in fictional characters the seed only produce fruit as long as a parent or outside individual was doing or providing it.”
Sounds very similar to how religions function. If there is a difference, please explain the difference.
You said, “With faith based on God and Jesus Christ there is outside influence above and beyond what a mortal being could provide.”
That is an unsubstantiable claim. Provide your evidence that “there is outside influence above and beyond what a mortal being could provide”. Without evidence it is just conjecture and opinion, not truth.
You asked, “Knowledge and guidance about events before they happen?”
Is that your evidence that God exists? I recommend you look up the God of the gaps fallacy.
You said, “There is fruit provided that is not based on fables and lies.”
If this is your evidence that God exists, be more specific. This statement is way too generalized to be evidence. Again, look up the God of the gaps fallacy.
You said, “Have a nice day.”
You too! And, please provide better evidence next time.
@@ericredd5590 Well said.
Not where I though it was headed, which that the church was built on a foundation of untrue history and doctrine, which started out fine, it grew, but now the faults have caused the structure to crack and it’s impossible to recover from those original faults (false historical narratives etc). The church tries to deny the inconsistencies. It’s tries to adapt with the times… but it’s now teetering on that faulty foundation. And member who built their faith on that foundation who want to learn more and grow sometimes get too tall to overcome the faults they built their faith upon.
Another typical Anti response.
People are leaving because the devil is pulling out all of the stops and only the strong will survive. Wheat and tares, goats and sheep, the ten virgins.
One eay is by convincing some to believe the BofM is true, but the Church is not. Easier to fool by half truth than outright lie. The devil is a crafty fellow and knows how to deceive the weak.
Let them go I say. That’s what you do about it.
Listen to members and stop preaching..we have heard it all before..the truth has come out now..apologise instead...respect
There are plenty of podcast you can go to wallow in your misery, you choose to listen to this one. No apologies needed. I respect your agency not your attitude.
@@smuggythornton And there are plenty of podcasts you can go to reinforce your [non-evidence based] faith based beliefs, just like this one. I respect your agency to believe what you want, even if it isn't backed by evidence and science. Believing in things without good evidence puts you in good company with children that believe in Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy. The good feelings that accompany those faith based beliefs may make you feel good but they do not prove that those beliefs are true.
@@adamholloway7963 without saying it just described how to be a apostate,. Adam its ok not to believe, but to claim there is no evidence is just lying to yourself, fine , go on with your faithless life and I send you happiness along the way. (by the way mature adults don't make fun of children, while putting others down)
@@smuggythornton Believing something is true and/or exercising faith that something is true has no bearing on whether it is actually true. My kids believe that Santa Clause, his flying reindeer, and his toy making elves are all real and all live in the North Pole. They exercise faith in their belief by trying to be good throughout the year, writing letters to Santa asking for specific gifts they desire, putting out cookies and milk for Santa, and going to bed on time on Christmas Eve so that he will come to deliver their presents. They experience positive emotions and good feelings when they exercise faith in their belief. My kids can even point to "evidence" that supports their belief that Santa is real similar to LDS members pointing to "evidence" that supports their faith based beliefs.
Does my kids' “evidence” prove that Santa, his elves, and his flying reindeer really do exist? No. Do their good/positive emotions and feelings prove that Santa, his elves, and his flying reindeer really do exist? Again, no. My kids' “evidence” and good/positive feelings just support their belief that it is all real. Again, similar to LDS faith based beliefs.
Do they benefit from that belief? I believe they do benefit to some degree at this point in their lives. However, one day, they will begin to apply critical thinking skills to that belief and realize that reindeer can’t fly, Santa can’t deliver presents to all the children of the world in a single night, toy making elves don’t exist, and none of them live in the North Pole. And, despite the fact that they benefited from their belief in Santa for a period in their lives and their belief helped produce positive emotions/good feelings for them, they will outgrow that false belief when it no longer benefits them.
If someone believes in something strong enough, of course they will find "evidence" to support that belief. It is called confirmation bias.
The truth is, the preponderance of evidence does not support that the LDS faith based beliefs [i.e. BoM historicity, BoA authenticity, 6,000 year old earth, all humans spontaneously originated from Jackson County, Missouri around 6,000 years ago, a global flood killed all humans and land animals in the entire world except for 8 humans and the few animals saved on Noah's Ark around 4,400 years ago, etc] are true.