DISAPPEARANCE OF THE PRIMARCHS! WAS THE EMPEROR INVOLVED?
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- čas přidán 8. 09. 2024
- Hey everyone Rho here! Today we ask if the Emperor of Mankind was involved in the disappearance of the loyal Primarchs?
General Spoiler Warning to begin as the events we're discussing today are from across the Warhammer 40,000 universe. As always I really recommend you read the stories for yourself first. As that's the best way to enjoy the lore for yourself!
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I hope Corvus Corax returns sooner rather than later. With a vengeance, too!
He is presumably still stalking the Eye of Terror after his encounter with Lorgar.
@abefroman3466indeed
He IS vengeance.
"VICTORUS AUT MORTIS "
It seems like GW is bringing back the primarchs in pairs now. Corvus/Lorgar would be a cool pairing.
I think he knew that there was going to be a rebellion at some point but hadn’t counted on Magnus destroying the human made sections of webway. He then did the best he could with the regicide pieces he was left with. He knew that he needed to regroup his powers which would take thousands of years so he found ways of putting his pieces out of reach until he was strong enough to make their use worthwhile
I do like the captured Dorn idea. I wonder if Perty has him as we haven’t heard from the iron warriors and a story about the Imperial fists rescuing Rogal Dorn would be very interesting.
Funny you mention capturing in the audiodrama where we hear how Bjorn the Fellhanded got mortally wounded and put in a dreadnought, we do here what the Space wolves think might have happened to their Primarch.
One theory is that he is captured by Magnus the Red and imprisoned in a hollow sun, being tortured by his old foe.
There might be a bit of true to that as Magnus (i believe in Battle of the Fang) hints that he knows where Russ is.
As he says "lets us not mention where you are right now" or something like that.
Dorn was on the Vengeful Spirit fighting on his own.
He was stabbed in the back of the knee by a poisonous blade wielded by a Chaos cultist causing his Larriman organs to fail.
As he breaths his last breath a silver angel appears in front of him, pulls out a tesseract vault and fires it at Dorn.
Another one for my collection said Trazyn the Infinite.
That's why nothing has been heard of him as he's not a prisoner of Chaos.
@@timothylyons5686 Not very likely Trazyn more or less confirmed that the clone of Fulgrim was the only Primarch in his possession.
Also i think it was Curze that confirmed that Dorn´s fate would be to be torn apart by chaos warriors.
A little like Ferrus Manus where after he was killed on Istvan.
@@Erikjust Trazyn has a custodes, the Fulgrim clone and a huge figure in baroque armour.
Dorn is probably fighting one handed like that games of thrones guy .
I think he saw the hearsay coming and planned as best for it as possible. He picked Horus for a reason, he knew early on which ones to distance himself from so they would be nudged the way he needed them to go. He also knew which loyal sons he would absolutely need, sadly he wasn't able to predict some of the actions certain sons would take.
Both the Emperor and Malcador knew the heresy was coming. The unexpected thing was Magnus screwing up the webway project and it happened too soon. Malcador says so in either the final Horus book or one of the books about the siege of Terra.
I think that the Emperor saw the issues, the flaws they all had AND I think he "managed" or organized their disappearence to try to fix some of those flaws... Guilliman "logic is the only way" is now facing some istances where he has to accept something out of logic... and the Lion? well the whole book "Lion, son of the forest" is an amazing cavalcade in the character arc from the old Lion to a very new one... I really think this has the fingerprint of the emperor all over it
Yo!!! That’s a great perceptive concept!! I love it…. So Alpharius learns to be more Omegon and more Alpharius Omegon after all
I think thats a logical observation.
At the end of Dark Imperium we see Guilliman fight Mortarion and his plan very clearly had an element of Faith to it. Relying on the Emperor to respond to his prayers and aid him in his time of need.
Especially in Son of the Forest we see Jonson coming to terms with his failures during the Great Crusade. Forced to speak to the Fallen and hear their side of the story he realises attacking Caliban and assuming all were guilty was a mistake.
Also, Jonson says he thinks The Emperor is the one guiding him to his Fallen sons and the "Old King" he sees in the Forest Dimension is clearly The Emperor who had been preparing that realm for The Lion's return.
The way I have interpreted the Emperor's actions is by using an example from the Marvel Cinematic Universe of all places.
If you already know where I'm going with this, forgive me for taking some time to briefly explain:
Doctor Strange had used the time stone to look into multiple possible futures in order to figure out how to defeat Thanos. He observed only one in which the heroes were successful. Many tragic and confusing events had to transpire the way they did in order to defeat Thanos. The first example was also the first step; giving Thanos the time stone willingly. Ultimately allowing Thanos to acquire all of the Infinity Stones and snap half of the life in the universe out of existence was also along the only perceived path to victory. Despite knowing this, Doctor Strange couldn't tell anyone this was necessary outside of his final words to Tony, "It's the only way". There's a possibility that in any of the potential futures he did describe how events played out, the heroes had failed. This path finally ended with Tony Stark having to make a sacrificial move, confirmed by Doctor Strange signaling that this was the one course of events that would lead to victory.
Even if not initially intended, I believe a case could be made that the Emperor, for every seeming misstep in judgment or action, had determined this course of action as being the most optimal despite all of its hardship and tragedy. This doesn't mean that he wished any of the events to transpire before or after his encounter with Horus, only that he had to ensure that they did happen.
The bleeding king in the boat is a clear fisher king reference. A grail quest. This implies the lion will somehow heal the emperor by “asking the right question”
Emperor burns the garden of Nurgle
Nurgle "My cabbages!"
The questions have always been "what does the emperor know?" and "what is the emperor doing?" and we have absolutely no definite answers. Im convinced he knew chaos would counterattack but didn't really grasp how that would play out. Im not sure he really expected the in-team deathmatch he got but he clearly knew something was coming. Another point of discussion (which you may have already done) is which if any traitor primarchs (or even just traitors in general) may change sides and seek redemption as their father grows ever more active and they inevitably start coming in repeated contact with him and asking him questions or venting their emotions.
Here’s the thing. When Malcador gets tossed by Magnus and is revealed to have fallen to Chaos, he says, “He was supposed to be one of ours!” That’s an extremely revealing statement.
My opinion is that Big E knew something akin to the Heresy was coming. I think he and Malcador thought some of his sons would fall, or even be traitors. But they must have thought certain Primarchs were “theirs” and certain ones would not. That’s why I think Russ, the Lion, Corax, Magnus, and yes, Horus, were thought to remain loyal. Others, like Angron, it is almost like Big E expected him to turn. What really shocked Big E was Magnus (golden throne) and Horus turning. I don’t think Malcador or Big E saw that coming. That is why they were virtually unprepared for what Horus and Magnus did, and why Big E was willing to extend forgiveness to both even when it was clear they were gone, but didn’t even bother trying with Mortarion, Fulgrim, Angron, or Perturabo.
I don't think he expected Perty to turn. In think Big-E thought Purty was a bitch-ass loser, and expected him to stay loyal.
That's the same conclusion i came to. He spent a lot of time with both Horus and Magnus which is why them turning completely blindsided him.
I think He saw Magnus and Alpharius as remaining loyal, which in their own twisted ways they were, for a long time. Magnus wasn't a traitor when he caused most of his damage.
Now, layer on the events of the Bequin novels. I think Dan Abnett has huge plans for 40k.
As I understand it, GW had the missing 2 Primarchs as an option for players to make their own. But if you are going with the theories of the Emporer planning the removal of loyalist Primarchs for 10,000 years, then surely these could be included? Sent away, build up their forces in secret and return on masse at a given signal, or even forming the backbone of strength with the return of the king in yellow, Constantin Valdor.
I do think that chaos has a double agent in at least 1 traitor primarchs. Probably 2. Omegon and Possibly Magnus. Though Magnus may not know he is keyed to betray the powers.
I would like a redemption for magnus but can't see it happening now that he is a demon
I think Big-E did know the heresy was gonna happen, and that whoever he made warmaster would betray him; but he did not expect the heresy to be as bad as it became. I think he underestimated horus' ability to manipulate the other primarchs, and thus did not expect fully half of the primarchs to rebel. He probably figured three or four would go, but not 9.
The funniest part of all this is that Valdor told the Emperor very clearly that making the Primarchs was a terrible idea because of their potential to be corrupted 😂
I think he saw 11 vs 7 as Magnus and Alpharius were technically loyal. They threw everything off in my opinion.
Seeing how catastrophic it was and that even curze saw it coming there's no way he didn't see the heresy coming in some form. The issue was Magnus, in any other scenario he could've put the webway project on hold and took to the field killing any traitors. But destroying his webway project? A blow that devastating completely blindsided him.
Curse saw it coming but did Sanguinius? Did Magnus? He saw Horus being corrupted and tried to help but he didn't see the Heresy like Curze did. I think the gods were messing with all of their foresight, making it the Warp clear and easy to read for some, but blurring it for others. The Big E has mentioned before how even his foresight isn't 100% accurate and how really all he does is use it to try to make accurate guesses as to what his next step should be
I'm sure they turned Rogal Dorn into a frozen TV dinner.
My Dorn Theory (In a nut shell) - he boarded the chaos ship fighting. The Warp core got damaged and he is caught in a time loop. Something will happen (Big E) to break the time loop and he will return thinking / feeling he has been gone next to no time at all.
I don't feel the captured idea. Iron Warriors would be singing about it like something out of Frozen (heresy detected) .
Really glad that i found your channel. Great entertainment!
I always thought Guilliman's return was by Aeldari Farseers as it being his return being the best outcome for the Eldar Races in the enteral battle against the warp. The New Eldar God and the co-operation of Belisaurs Crawl, As the Emperor saw his return as a forgotten tool found again which unsettled the Primarch . Who is still very much a great crusade Imperial truth based believer. It will be interesting to see how El' Johnson reacts to the Godhood vs Imperial truth drama
We already have a pretty clear idea of what The Lion thinks of it all now he has returned.
He seems to be tolerant of it, doesn't care one way or the other. My personal interpretation of his attitude towards the Imperial Creed is that he is just happy they are praying to The Emperor rather than the Chaos Gods.
There are several occasions in the book where he is confronted with the religious Imperium and he simply chooses to ignore it and focus on his mission.
With the disappearance of Rogal Dorn I like many feel he fell into a trap and was take prisoner. Most fans would say that it was the Iron Warriors. Possibly having placed him into a stasis cell to be take out to be interrogated or tortured from time to time for Perturabo's pleasure and amusement. However as you said Rho there is no way that would be kept under wraps. The iron warriors like to brag too much.
I personally think that he was captured by the Alpha Legion. Possibly at the hands of Omegon. They are the only organization that could keep a secret like that under wraps for 10k plus years. Plus I like the idea that Omegon took him prisoner. Maybe took his hand as retribution/justice/revenge for the death of Alpharius. Maybe it was just lost in battle while being taken down. Regardless I like the idea of Omegon keeping Dorn on ice to drop the mother of I told you so's on him when he finally has his big reveal of having United the Alpha Legion and them actually being (mostly) loyal all this time. At least that is what is in my head cannon plan.
BIG E didn't set up Lion & G Man to be wounded but he couldn't stop it either and had to intervene to keep them alive until they were recovered
If the Emporer’s reality is one of parallel universes he may be aware of his ideal at the same time being aware of divergence.
What if the Lions quest is to find his brothers. He can probably go where no one else can faster than any one else can. I think that be a great book series.
2:24 sounds like he has a very active imagination and because he is intelligent enough to predict certain outcomes he believes he has genuine foresight.
Corvus: Woe is me. All is lost. Lorgar and his abominable worship has broken our dream.
Emperor's ghost whispering: Nevermore
Corvus: Let's fuuuccking goooooooo
Dorn is currently a guest of Trazyn and when he returns, he's bringing the clone of Fulgrim with him.
That would actually be amazing, especially if we get a fulgrim on shit fulgrim duel where he completely rejects the pathetic thing that is shit demon fulgrim.
Certainly makes a lot of sense, and with the latest Lion book it seems likely. The Emperor basically punted.
The sailing analogy the Emperor used is odd, seeing as Terra doesn’t have oceans anymore and thus his Custodes wouldn’t know what he’s talking about. It feels directed at the 20th C reader, rather than a more apt analogy reflecting Terra’s current state.
lol what. Custodes would know what he is talking about.
@@BloodyArchangelus That Custode has never even seen an ocean, and I doubt there is any surviving video of one. What would a story about sailing one mean to him?
LOL you have not read the lore and @@headlibrarian1996
@@headlibrarian1996 To be fair, the Custodes are privy to as close to unrestricted knowledge of the Imperium's history as one can get. I don't think the analogy would be lost on them, given they know what an ocean is and I would presume naval warfare wasn't overlooked in their tactical studies.
I don't think he played a part in it. There was a reason the Crusade was so rushed and knowing Big E, he wouldn't want to lose out on a few decades looking for his Primarchs when he can literally just raise them for a fraction of the time. On top of that, I think in the Master of Mankind Big E mentions that his foresight starts getting foggy around the end of the Crusade and that's why it was so rushed. Him and Malcador was trying to avoid whatever was coming, showing the gods were screwing with him pretty heavily, he likely couldn't see some stuff.
If I recall, Tzeentch can see the many futures but cannot see the pieces that cause them or the steps to rake to reach certain outcomes, though i thought it was said Big E could, though i am not sure where ive heared that. Magnus and the Khan i think were the 2 unexpected ones, that or the switching of their home worlds threw Big E off. However ive been going through the heresy series audiobooks, and alot of the Primarchs that were closer to him seem to be under the impression that after the crusade it wouldve been them ruling the Imperium, with big E watching over. If thats not just their speculation, then it may be the real plan, wether big E revives or ascends hed be watching over the primarchs and the imperium.
i dont think Big E can see everything the Chaos gods do, or how they manipulate things which is why everyone thought his foresight was perfect up till right before the heresy. He knew theyd respond at some point, but the details of their response was a mystery. (i think he knew about the heresy, and most of the sons that would fall, but i dont think he expected chaos to focus on him for so long, or put as much effort into it as they did.)
It was the Khan and Fulgrim that switched. Presumably caused by Cergorach to give Slaanesh a "weaker" Primarch - one that would fall more to the hedonistic side rather than taking his swordsmanship to the excess.
You know a thought just hit my dome. If the traitors went all demon-sain...& Corax went all Warp-sain..... Shouldn't the Big E be able to just eat some of the souls consumed on the Golden Throne? I would imagine that willing subjects entering the warp. Are in some way visible to Big E and i bet they taste different too. So I bet the Emperor just all of a sudden gets up completely healed. It wouldn't even surprise me if he splits himself in two. Leaving one on the Golden Throne & the other getting back to business of running shit.
I'm not a fist dude by any means but dam it I want rogal back
Well Done Rho❕👍🏻👍🏻
The Emperor is always scheming and changing his plans at all times.
There's no way he didn't immediately start planning for the return of his sons as soon as they disappeared.
And besides, each of the Loyalists are perfectly positioned within the lore to have a cascading effect within the galaxy.
I think of the Emperor as a 3.5 dimensional being. He can look at possible futures but as he ventures on the actual path thinks can change around the edges of his perception subtly changing the outcome. As for the heresy and how it all shook out, I am at the point of he chose the most optimal outcome he could foresee.
What I mean is he could have had a future where there was no heresy but there was high chance it would have destroyed the human Imperium.
And he could have repelled the Heresy and stayed off the throne but lost all his sons, thus having to start over.
To me seems if he had a choice in the matter, he chose to sacrifice half his sons to the warp and a few sons ( he seems to have to power to bring back). But if the plan was suffer now for power gain later and possible transformation into a full 4th dimensional being, with the plan of taking his sons back from the warp once on their level... since he is a match in his current form.
I’d love it if the emperor had the brother primarchs return n booster by the 2 primarchs supposedly wiped from existence but kept in stasis hidden somewhere as a doomsday weapon lol .I know it would never happen but it’s my own wild fantasy
Yes, Corax left the tower for the eye.
Yes, Corax never (physically) never left the tower for the eye.
Meanwhile, 10.000 years ago - all 4 Chaos gods impersonating the Emperor approach Corax, while meditating.
Chaos:
Corax.. Corax.. you are a disgrace.
Corax:
No, Not now!
Chaos:
You are a disgrace!
Corax:
No, No. You are not my father!
I am not a disgrace,
I’m am Vengeance
I am the Night
I am Corvus Corax.
.
.
.
Never more!!!!
The guy Wolf DNA (canis helix) just happens to land on the wolf planet named after a Viking wolf, the super psychic dude (even communicated with Emps from his pod) just happens to land on the Psychic planet.
Either the Emperor planned it, or it's a ludocrous coincidence
I think less coincidence and more deliberate. My take from Horus Rising when Horus had that "vision" of the incubation chamber, that the Emp couldn't stop the vortex but could alter the end location and did so based on the characteristics of the Primarchs themselves.
The Primarchs "souls" are minor warp entities generated by the thoughts and emotions of inhabitants of certain planets. When they were scattered through the warp they naturally went back to the location they were created.
@@Alf_Hairy-arse An interesting theory, though more supporting evidence is needed
@@darklelouchg8505 I think it was basically confirmed but can't remember which book. Maybe one of the 40k blood angel books?
Idk about time line of war of the beast but in Lion book avangeing son Said to Lion of caliban that lord of drakes is on mccrag alive but that was in time Just before forming of impirum secundus
I would say GW intends to bring them all back, all the Primarchs, if they can do it without damaging the IP. It'd take a decade and a half, most likely. If we're still going strong by 2032, we might even get Perturabo! 😅 (even though he's been here the whole time).
im wondering if the king in yellow isnt in fact CV but RD working with CV. i know dan's a busy man but damn he needs to get out with the words!!
Heresy in the
title!
The cruel bastard planned it all so he could become a god.
If the emperor gives his sons a piece of equipment, I hope he gives rogal his armor and the power claw to replace the missing hand
Wouldn't the armor be too big? Maybe vulkan could fit
@@davidburnett5049 if the talon of horus fit abaddon why can't the emperors gear fit rogal?
@@Thewanderercaleb you make a good point. I would say that maybe armor is more precise than a talon but.. idk for sure. Shrug
He is the Kwisatz Haderach, long live his fighters .
I think e planned corvis, russ, and potentially rogal dorn and lion aswell. Not sure about kahn or vulcan. Def not g man, and as a bonus Ferrus is hinted to be leading legion of the damned and Sanguinus is being dantes suicide prevention hotline rn.
One of many possible futures
Honestly I doubt the emperor sent all his sons off like that. The main issue the imperium faced after the heresy was incompetent leadership which lead to a 10,000 year decline. Of course chaos would still be an issue but it would be less of an issue if the imperiums greatest enemy wasn't the imperium.
So is this a story that has happened before 40k thought the word bearers whre moslty still together
E being involved with Dorn’s disappearance is the only way I can make that work… however I’ve been saying and I’ll keep saying, Dorn has fallen to Khorne. Wait and see.
Keep the Praetorian’s name, out yo fawkin’ mouth.
It would be really funny if Dorn was just on a warp rift and he just popped in the middle of a battle now because warp stuff, no deeper meaning, no external factors, just travel through the warp 10000 years on to the future just because 😂
Hydra Dominatus
What if the Emperor just made and agreement on molech with the caos gods, just to ensure a perpetual game and half of the primarchs to each side
He made the agreement with chaos to get the warp entities to be the souls of the primarchs. Moloch actually means sacrifice so presumably he had to sacrifice half of his sons to chaos to get what he needed. Chaos felt he cheated though so I'm guessing they wanted/expected different Primarchs to fall. We know Slaanesh should have got the Khan and Khorne wanted Sanguinius but I wonder about the others.
Didn't one the thousand sons see the heresy when he was saving a iron warrior?
This one seems pretty easy. No. No of course not. Duh.
Why would her greet Robutte the way he did, something something last hopenor whatever?
It's a silly question. But that doesn't snt mean it can't be fun
Wait. Lion el Johnson is back? When did that happen?
He woke up with new Powers and beat the shit out of bitch I mean angron and now its reuniting his sons.
We dont know how but his awake after a femon attack the rock.
That's rather recent. Only in the past few months I believe. I'm very much looking forward to him meeting Robbie, it's either going to be a brofest or a deathmatch of glorious scale, and once they sort it all out it will be very fun to see where it all goes
@00yiggdrasill00 I would imagine most of the Iion's ire would be directed towards the Fallen. After that, he'd have several bones to pick with the Imperial Cult. As far as fighting Roboute', itt would barely be a fight. As much as I like the Avenging Son, Guilliman was not one of the better single combat Primarchs whereas Lion el Johnson is likely in the Loyalist top 3. Regardless, I would be very interested in a current era Lion series.
@@UncleMikeDrop nope, the lion its actually rescuing thier sons only killings the ones that are to far gone.
@xzenitramx666 hmmm...interesting.
👍
The narration on this video was not flowing like in previous videos made it difficult to listen to
Your content has become increasingly heretical. I cannot condone this. I'm on the phone with the Inquisition's front desk right now......
Yeah, ok fella. Good luck with that. You're gonna be on hold until the Tyranids are finally full
🎵🎵🎵.....Thank you for calling the inquisitorial hot line. Your call is very important to us. Stay on the line until you answered......🎵🎵🎵
Is Valdor the emperor's actual son or possibly his brother and that is why he is so powerful and so dear to the emperor?
There is zero lore to say dorn is dead, the lore has always stated that there was a hand not a body, keep the channel honest and do your research
How bout you make sense next time, Dorn is definitely still alive.
Kinda reminded me of that Rick and Morty episode where Morty had the death crystal and was trying to die with Jessica at an old age lol